How Is exactly Tim Duncan over Kobe All-time again?

[HOoopCityJones]

Serious question. :biggums:


Here I am reading through all this shit that says Kobe is the player of the decade along with the Lakers being the Team of the decade, The NBA site itself blasting Timmy for losing in the 2004 Olympics

"Summer Olympics loss, 2004. A team coached by Larry Brown and led by Duncan, LeBron, Allen Iverson and Carmelo Anthony would beat anyone. Except Argentina. And Lithuania. And Puerto Rico, which won by 19 and shattered the USA's dominance in Olympic hoops. While the international competition was slowly catching up even before the Athens Games, it was still shocking to see the USA taking a beating and the bronze."

Just for comparison sake look what they had to say about the redeem Team.

After a disastrous performance at the 2004 Olympics in Greece, USA Basketball, in desperation, turned over the selection process for the next U.S. men's basketball team to Jerry Colangelo, the former Phoenix Suns owner. Colangelo was the one and only voice, determined to pick a team of players that not only wanted to play in the Olympics, but would commit for three years in preparation.

Colangelo believed the best players, given time, could become a true team, something that hadn't happened in previous international competitions. After Kobe Bryant and LeBron James committed to play, most of the NBA's other superstars fell in line. Under coach Mike Krzyzewski, the U.S. team became a defensive power, and was led offensively by Dwyane Wade, Carmelo Anthony and Chris Paul, with James, Bryant and Jason Kidd filling in whatever cracks developed. The U.S. team beat all comers before facing a tough Spain team -- with NBA players Pau Gasol and Rudy Fernandez, and future NBAer Ricky Rubio -- in the gold medal game.

The Americans led. The Spaniards rallied. The Americans went back ahead. The Spaniards wouldn't go away. But finally, a four-point play by Bryant and a three from Wade kept Spain at arm's length for good, and the "Redeem Team" (that year's answer to the 1992 "Dream Team") had brought the gold back to the United States.



http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/scott_howard_cooper/12/29/lakers/index.html

http://www.nba.com/alldecade/vote13/

http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/shaun_powell/12/08/ten.decade/index.html


http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/shaun_powell/12/09/decade.moments/index.html

http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/shaun_powell/12/08/ten.decade/index.html



http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/david_aldridge/12/21/morning.tip/index.html



Yet, all I can think about are the idiots at ISH who think Duncan is the better player because he played a role on a 2014 championship Team where he was well removed as the main centerpiece, mind you this is no knock on Duncan, who is definitely a Top 6 or 7 player all time, but just the notion that his fifth ring somehow puts him over Kobe is pretty laughable.

The NBA makes Kobe's case better than I can, so if you're not illiterate, take a read through the links and see for yourself.

I'll leave you with this excerpt specifically.

"Not quite Magic, not quite Bird and not quite Jordan, but for overall impact on the game, Kobe rules the decade. He began it as a teen idol who made basketball cool. His image took a hit after legal problems in Colorado. And then, in large part because his basketball skills are so supreme, he recovered it all: endorsements, box office and another title, his fourth this decade."


That was before his fifth.

Serious discussion here, because I wanna hear the case he has when even their own league sees it differently.

[keep-itreal]

he didn't shoot 6 for 24 in the nba finals like that other chucker

[HOoopCityJones]

he didn't shoot 6 for 24 in the nba finals like that other chucker

He did miss two point blank lay ups over Shane Battier though.

Don't even get me started on 07 or 05. :facepalm

[sportjames23]

This is gonna be a good thread. Especially when kenneth and 9erempire see this.

#popcorngif

[Uncle Drew]

Because he is a better basketball player.

[Smoke117]

Tim Duncan > Kobe Bryant

[Fire Colangelo]

had his team in contention every single year in the league. the same cannot be said for kobe

[HOoopCityJones]

Because he is a better basketball player.


Tim Duncan > Kobe Bryant


Since we're using arbitrary measurements like 6-24.

http://cdn2.sbnation.com/imported_assets/1673453/duncanmiss.gif

[HOoopCityJones]

had his team in contention every single year in the league. the same cannot be said for kobe

Kobe's repeated multiple times. Closest Duncan's come to that is trying to reprimand the greatest collective choke job in NBA history.

[gilalizard]

LeBron, Allen Iverson and Carmelo Anthony

These three egos on the same team together? Fuggedaboutit. They'd kill anything.

Hell, in the next Olympics they assigned Kidd to babysit LeBron to keep him alone from torpedoing the team with his self-centered immaturity.

[HOoopCityJones]

These three egos on the same team together? Fuggedaboutit. They'd kill anything.

Hell, in the next Olympics they assigned Kidd to babysit LeBron to keep him alone from torpedoing the team with his self-centered immaturity.

Kobe's a Team killer too remember? The worst of all according to some here, yet the Team thrived once he joined. You guys have these tired half assed arguments and you'll get the same type of responses in return until I read a serious one.

[Fire Colangelo]

Since we're using arbitrary measurements like 6-24.

http://cdn2.sbnation.com/imported_assets/1673453/duncanmiss.gif

how is 6-24 arbitrary wtf lol

[HOoopCityJones]

how is 6-24 arbitrary wtf lol

Because it's one ****ing game. Idiots who present it pretend like it was his average for the entire series. It's not even an argument.

Everyone has bad games. How can such a thing be measured?

[Nowitness]

Great post OP.

Kobe is a better scorer, leader, defender, post player, winner, passer, entertainer... Better everything.

When Kobe gets carried to titles like Duncan did with Tony Parker and Manu, then we can talk. Like he was when he averaged less points than the number one option did rebounds.

When Duncan doesn't miss the playoffs at his peak and lose in the first round the year after, then we can talk.

When Duncan doesn't need an All-NBA big on his team to win, then we can talk.

When Duncan doesn't cause in house arguments, demands trades/new team mates and hog the ball, then we can talk.

When Duncan can time and time again shoot efficient not only in the clutch but throughout an entire game, an entire season even, then we can talk.

But most of all, when Duncan doesn't rape women, then we can talk.

[stephanieg]

It's a case of Kobe being overrated more than anything, but you generally take big over small. More significant impact and easier to build around.

[Milbuck]

Great post OP.

Kobe is a better scorer, leader, defender, post player, winner, passer, entertainer... Better everything.

When Kobe gets carried to titles like Duncan did with Tony Parker and Manu, then we can talk. Like he was when he averaged less points than the number one option did rebounds.

When Duncan doesn't miss the playoffs at his peak and lose in the first round the year after, then we can talk.

When Duncan doesn't need an All-NBA big on his team to win, then we can talk.

When Duncan doesn't cause in house arguments, demands trades/new team mates and hog the ball, then we can talk.

When Duncan can time and time again shoot efficient not only in the clutch but throughout an entire game, an entire season even, then we can talk.

But most of all, when Duncan doesn't rape women, then we can talk.Don't think we'll ever have to worry about this with Duncan.

[HOoopCityJones]

Great post OP.

Kobe is a better scorer, leader, defender, post player, winner, passer, entertainer... Better everything.

When Kobe gets carried to titles like Duncan did with Tony Parker and Manu, then we can talk. Like he was when he averaged less points than the number one option did rebounds.

When Duncan doesn't miss the playoffs at his peak and lose in the first round the year after, then we can talk.

When Duncan doesn't need an All-NBA big on his team to win, then we can talk.

When Duncan doesn't cause in house arguments, demands trades/new team mates and hog the ball, then we can talk.

When Duncan can time and time again shoot efficient not only in the clutch but throughout an entire game, an entire season even, then we can talk.

But most of all, when Duncan doesn't rape women, then we can talk.

Hey TLP.


Anyone ever notice that most of Kobe detractors arguments have to do with Locker room or offcourt shit?

Timmy's a **** smoker , but you don't see me holding sexual orientation against him do ya? Better yet, you're a rapist. See , there, now you're just as much a rapist as Kobe because I accused you of it. Accusation is conviction to the unintelligent.

[HOoopCityJones]

Don't think we'll ever have to worry about this with Duncan.

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m2afndCQxG1qaay69o1_500.gif

[Fire Colangelo]

Kobe's repeated multiple times. Closest Duncan's come to that is trying to reprimand the greatest collective choke job in NBA history.

Greatest choke job in NBA? He played above expectations in both 13 and 14.
A great choke job is going 7-22 for 22 points in a crucial elimination game 6.
A choke job is going 4-13 for 11 points, 8-25 for 20 points and 7-21 for 24 points in three consecutive games in finals to lose the series.

Kobe really has no argument.

Ring argument? Both have 5 rings.
MVPs? Duncan has more
FMVPs? Duncan has more.

Single handedly made a small market team contend for two decades. Single handedly made one of the greatest coaches of all time. Not to mention winning the Championship in 99 and 03 with arguably one of the weakest supporting casts while having one of the best individual performances.


What argument do you have other than career points?

Only argument you have is Duncan being on a losing team in 04? Lmao, Duncan had rookie LeBron and Carmelo, and a bunch of cancers on the team. While Kobe had LeBron, Wade, CP3, Dwight, etc in their primes.

[iamgine]

Serious question. :biggums:


Here I am reading through all this shit that says Kobe is the player of the decade along with the Lakers being the Team of the decade, The NBA site itself blasting Timmy for losing in the 2004 Olympics

"Summer Olympics loss, 2004. A team coached by Larry Brown and led by Duncan, LeBron, Allen Iverson and Carmelo Anthony would beat anyone. Except Argentina. And Lithuania. And Puerto Rico, which won by 19 and shattered the USA's dominance in Olympic hoops. While the international competition was slowly catching up even before the Athens Games, it was still shocking to see the USA taking a beating and the bronze."

Just for comparison sake look what they had to say about the redeem Team.

After a disastrous performance at the 2004 Olympics in Greece, USA Basketball, in desperation, turned over the selection process for the next U.S. men's basketball team to Jerry Colangelo, the former Phoenix Suns owner. Colangelo was the one and only voice, determined to pick a team of players that not only wanted to play in the Olympics, but would commit for three years in preparation.

Colangelo believed the best players, given time, could become a true team, something that hadn't happened in previous international competitions. After Kobe Bryant and LeBron James committed to play, most of the NBA's other superstars fell in line. Under coach Mike Krzyzewski, the U.S. team became a defensive power, and was led offensively by Dwyane Wade, Carmelo Anthony and Chris Paul, with James, Bryant and Jason Kidd filling in whatever cracks developed. The U.S. team beat all comers before facing a tough Spain team -- with NBA players Pau Gasol and Rudy Fernandez, and future NBAer Ricky Rubio -- in the gold medal game.

The Americans led. The Spaniards rallied. The Americans went back ahead. The Spaniards wouldn't go away. But finally, a four-point play by Bryant and a three from Wade kept Spain at arm's length for good, and the "Redeem Team" (that year's answer to the 1992 "Dream Team") had brought the gold back to the United States.



http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/scott_howard_cooper/12/29/lakers/index.html

http://www.nba.com/alldecade/vote13/

http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/shaun_powell/12/08/ten.decade/index.html


http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/shaun_powell/12/09/decade.moments/index.html

http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/shaun_powell/12/08/ten.decade/index.html



http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/david_aldridge/12/21/morning.tip/index.html



Yet, all I can think about are the idiots at ISH who think Duncan is the better player because he played a role on a 2014 championship Team where he was well removed as the main centerpiece, mind you this is no knock on Duncan, who is definitely a Top 6 or 7 player all time, but just the notion that his fifth ring somehow puts him over Kobe is pretty laughable.

The NBA makes Kobe's case better than I can, so if you're not illiterate, take a read through the links and see for yourself.

I'll leave you with this excerpt specifically.

"Not quite Magic, not quite Bird and not quite Jordan, but for overall impact on the game, Kobe rules the decade. He began it as a teen idol who made basketball cool. His image took a hit after legal problems in Colorado. And then, in large part because his basketball skills are so supreme, he recovered it all: endorsements, box office and another title, his fourth this decade."


That was before his fifth.

Serious discussion here, because I wanna hear the case he has when even their own league sees it differently.
Yeah I never got why Duncan's 5th ring puts him over Kobe either. He's over Kobe way before his 5th ring.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Greatest choke job in NBA? He played above expectations in both 13 and 14.
A great choke job is going 7-22 for 22 points in a crucial elimination game 6.
A choke job is going 4-13 for 11 points, 8-25 for 20 points and 7-21 for 24 points in three consecutive games in finals to lose the series.

Kobe really has no argument.

Ring argument? Both have 5 rings.
MVPs? Duncan has more
FMVPs? Duncan has more.

Single handedly made a small market team contend for two decades. Single handedly made one of the greatest coaches of all time. Not to mention winning the Championship in 99 and 03 with arguably one of the weakest supporting casts while having one of the best individual performances.


What argument do you have other than career points?

Only argument you have is Duncan being on a losing team in 04? Lmao, Duncan had rookie LeBron and Carmelo, and a bunch of cancers on the team. While Kobe had LeBron, Wade, CP3, Dwight, etc in their primes.


Lmao if people really believe this. Duncan is so overrated with statements like this.

[Shih508]

Trust me, any Hall of fame coach including Phil will take Duncan over Kobe if they are going for a championship run! No matter what they say in media!

[Shih508]

AI and Duncan should get praised for going to 2004 Olympic team, they were the only two original players who got selected actually went to Anthen for USA. Every other super star bailed on the team cuz they were afraid of terrorist attk

[HOoopCityJones]

Trust me, any Hall of fame coach including Phil will take Duncan over Kobe if they are going for a championship run! No matter what they say in media!

Dude , Phil respects repeating above all. If you ask him that, trust me he'd roll with Shaq , Kobe or a guy by the name of Micheal Jordan above all of them.

[Shih508]

Yeah I never got why Duncan's 5th ring puts him over Kobe either. He's over Kobe way before his 5th ring.

This! Kobe has never been ahead of Duncan. Manufactured star by David Stern, all media hype with no substance

[Shih508]

Dude , Phil respects repeating above all. If you ask him that, trust me he'd roll with Shaq , Kobe or a guy by the name of Micheal Jordan above all of them.

He can replace Kobe with any super star wing players with same result while Shaq might be the only player in past 20 years who can replace Duncan.

[tpols]

He can replace Kobe with any super star wing players with same result while Shaq might be the only player in past 20 years who can replace Duncan.

Replace Duncan for when? You could've replaced him with Rasheed Wallace last year and the spurs still win. If you mean duplicate the five titles then Yea only KG could've done that. But then you'd have to make an equal comparison for Kobe and there's no superstar wing outside Jordan that had the combination of longevity and peak required to win back to back after winning with shaq

[T_L_P]

Because, ultimately, we're comparing two players who were in the NBA for almost two decades.

First of all, Duncan's "choke" in 04 still isn't in the same league as Kobe's in 04. Whilst one represented his country with a bunch of head cases and scrubs (yes, they still should have won), the other actively destroyed his team from the inside.

I made a post in another thread the other day showing examples of the horrible officiating in the Olympics. Duncan fouled out against Argentina, and 4 of those fouls were bogus, and Duncan didn't touch anyone in 2 of them (the USA coaches, players and commentators were shocked).

Parenthetically, Duncan the choker put up 13/9 on 57% shooting, against constant double and triple teams (he was by far their best player going into the tournament, and teams dared RJEFF and a bunch of rookies who couldn't shoot to beat them).

Kobe in 08 put up 15/2 on 46% shooting (whilst LeBron and Wade, USA's best players, shot 60% and 67%).

tl;dr: Duncan's choke isn't as bad as you make it out to be (if you're going to respond, don't post conjecture like he couldn't win with a stacked team, go into the specifics), and Kobe's biggest choke job (04 Finals) was a lot worse.

Not to mention Duncan's peak (02-03) is clearly better than Kobe's. Then there's things like Duncan having the better stats (peak, prime, career, raw and advanced), accomplishments (more MVPs, Finals MVPs, All-Defensive Teams), and a much better character.

Let me know when Pop writes a book ripping Duncan for being a rapist and a player who hasn't played smart defense in years.

[Fawker]

everytime both teams crossed paths, the lakers took them out.

[DatAsh]

I've got Duncan over Kobe for defensive reasons, but you can certainly make a case for Kobe.

[T_L_P]

everytime both teams crossed paths, the lakers took them out.

Except for the two times Duncan won with the less favored team?

[G0ATbe]

There's actually retards out there that think Duncans GOAT?:lol

[Shih508]

There's actually retards out there that think Duncans GOAT?:lol

There're retards out there that think Kobrick is the GOAT like you!

[SouBeachTalents]

There's actually retards out there that think Duncans GOAT?:lol

:oldlol: Oh the irony

[Fire Colangelo]

Lmao if people really believe this. Duncan is so overrated with statements like this.

Lol.

Tell me, how many titles did Pop and the Spurs win before Duncan got there?

[tpols]

Lol.

Tell me, how many titles did Pop and the Spurs win before Duncan got there?
Pop got there at the same time as Duncan.. So that's irrelevant.

Duncan in place of Robinson in the early 90s has zero rings as well. Robinson had relative nobodies when he came up.. Duncan when he came up had Robinson who was still statistically the best defensive impact in the league along with being a double double machine.

Duncan has had some of the best long term help of any all time great..

98-03 Pop, end prime Robinson, young manu/parker

04-07 prime, peak Manu/Parker taking turns taking over

08-present most optimal machine controlled by goat coach with potential for any one of 6 or 7 guys taking over

[miles berg]

Cause he was/is a much better franchise player. You don't have to trade HOF players to help him win like you have to with Kobe.

[Mr. Jabbar]

Cause he was/is a much better franchise player. You don't have to trade HOF players to help him win like you have to with Kobe.

:facepalm :facepalm

[Fire Colangelo]

Pop got there at the same time as Duncan.. So that's irrelevant.

Duncan in place of Robinson in the early 90s has zero rings as well. Robinson had relative nobodies when he came up.. Duncan when he came up had Robinson who was still statistically the best defensive impact in the league along with being a double double machine.

Duncan has had some of the best long term help of any all time great..

98-03 Pop, end prime Robinson, young manu/parker

04-07 prime, peak Manu/Parker taking turns taking over

08-present most optimal machine controlled by goat coach with potential for any one of 6 or 7 guys taking over

Lost me there :roll:

I hope you're not arguing that Duncan has better supporting cast than Kobe.

98-03 Pop isn't worth mentioning. He was considered an above average coach back then, that's it.

Duncan had DRob in 99, and that's pretty much it. There's really nobody else worth mentioning other than Avery Johnson and Sean Elliott (who are nice players, but nothing special).

Sophomore Parker, rookie Ginobili and DRob in his last season in 03. Best long term help :applause: :applause: :applause:

Help started coming in once Parker and Ginobili started to develop, even then it was Duncan carrying most of the load offensively and anchoring the team defensively. Anything after 07 is icing on the cake, Duncan had already established his place ahead of Kobe by then.

Tim Duncan made Popvich, not the other way around.

[T_L_P]

Pop got there at the same time as Duncan.. So that's irrelevant.

Duncan in place of Robinson in the early 90s has zero rings as well. Robinson had relative nobodies when he came up.. Duncan when he came up had Robinson who was still statistically the best defensive impact in the league along with being a double double machine.

Duncan has had some of the best long term help of any all time great..

98-03 Pop, end prime Robinson, young manu/parker

04-07 prime, peak Manu/Parker taking turns taking over

08-present most optimal machine controlled by goat coach with potential for any one of 6 or 7 guys taking over

"Young Parker" :oldlol:

03-06 Parker was a turd. He was one of the worst championship second options ever, and his 05 run was even worse.

http://i.imgur.com/z8FWUcj.png

Talk about Pop (the second greatest coach ever), Manu (superstar impact in limited minutes), or D-Rob. But listing young Parker as elite help is stupid.

Parker's name appears on that putrid list twice...on two title teams. :oldlol:

[tpols]

^Tony Parker was never your second option in the years you listed.. Manu and Robinson were interchangeably.

But if you want to scratch young Parker out the list still stands.. Drob then Manu, then Parker later on, and nowadays just a machine. Hes had above average help every single period of his career with help right now and the past few years about equal to prime Shaq. Duncan's title last year was on 00 Kobe level.

[SouBeachTalents]

^Tony Parker was never your second option in the years you listed.. Manu and Robinson were interchangeably.

But if you want to scratch young Parker out the list still stands.. Drob then Manu, then Parker later on, and nowadays just a machine. Hes had above average help every single period of his career with help right now and the past few years about equal to prime Shaq. Duncan's title last year was on 00 Kobe level.

1999 isn't even anything to write home about, and '03 is seriously one of the weakest supporting casts to ever win a championship

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/SAS/2003.html#all_playoffs_per_game

[tpols]

1999 isn't even anything to write home about, and '03 is seriously one of the weakest supporting casts to ever win a championship

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/SAS/2003.html#all_playoffs_per_game
99 was something to write home about..david Robinson had top five impact in the league.. Was the leagues best defender, monster rebounder and double digit efficient scoring. 03 was older drob but better young talent emerging. Both teams had hca... Hardly some underdogs.. They were 1 seeds. :oldlol:

Only with the spurs in all sports have I seen such low expectations for a team that had the best record in the league


You guys think help needs to be a 20ppg second option.. But David Robinson and some of the perimeter players on those teams were extremely elite in everything outside ppg.. Namely half the game, defense. The defensive help was perfect for a defense oriented star.

[T_L_P]

99 was something to write home about..david Robinson had top five impact in the league.. Was the leagues best defender, monster rebounder and double digit efficient scoring. 03 was older drob but better young talent emerging. Both teams had hca... Hardly some underdogs.. They were 1 seeds. :oldlol:

Only with the spurs in all sports have I seen such low expectations for a team that had the best record in the league


You guys think help needs to be a 20ppg second option.. But David Robinson and some of the perimeter players on those teams were extremely elite in everything outside ppg.. Namely half the game, defense. The defensive help was perfect for a defense oriented star.

Again, say what you want about 99 (it was ultimately Duncan and D-Rob and a bunch of role players, but Robinson was still fantastic).

03? Before the season the Lakers, Mavs and Kings were title favorites. Going into the postseason the Kings were eliminated from that group, but the Lakers and Mavs still had the best shot to win (along with the Spurs). The Lakers won just 50 games because Shaq missed the first 15 and Kobe could only lead his team to a 5-10 record. The Mavs also won 60 games.

It's been said over and over that the 03 squad is one of the weakest championship teams because it was. 94 Hakeem and 03 Duncan did more than any other player ever has to win a championship. The two-way dominance puts them in a class of their own.

Nobody is calling the team shit. They are calling it mediocre. Shit teams don't win titles. Mediocre teams with peak Hakeem and Duncan on them can win titles, depending on how well they perform (25/15/5/3 with GOAT caliber defense from Duncan, 29/11/4/4 with GOAT caliber defense from Hakeem).

:confusedshrug:

And you're skipping over Parker here. He has 4 titles and he was flat-out bad on 3 of the teams. If anything you should be singing the praises of Duncan and Pop for making the kid look so good for so long (good enough for you to call him elite help at the lowest point(s) of his career).

[tpols]

Lost me there :roll:

I hope you're not arguing that Duncan has better supporting cast than Kobe.

98-03 Pop isn't worth mentioning. He was considered an above average coach back then, that's it.

Duncan had DRob in 99, and that's pretty much it. There's really nobody else worth mentioning other than Avery Johnson and Sean Elliott (who are nice players, but nothing special).

Sophomore Parker, rookie Ginobili and DRob in his last season in 03. Best long term help :applause: :applause: :applause:

Help started coming in once Parker and Ginobili started to develop, even then it was Duncan carrying most of the load offensively and anchoring the team defensively. Anything after 07 is icing on the cake, Duncan had already established his place ahead of Kobe by then.

Tim Duncan made Popvich, not the other way around.

How could Duncan have made pop when he's essentially created an offense that was nothing like what spurs ran with prime Duncan?

If Duncan made pop, the spurs would've fell off with Duncan's decline.. But they didn't.. They actually dominated harder than ever before. :oldlol:

[houston]

he ain't

[tpols]

Again, say what you want about 99 (it was ultimately Duncan and D-Rob and a bunch of role players, but Robinson was still fantastic).

03? Before the season the Lakers, Mavs and Kings were title favorites. Going into the postseason the Kings were eliminated from that group, but the Lakers and Mavs still had the best shot to win (along with the Spurs). The Lakers won just 50 games because Shaq missed the first 15 and Kobe could only lead his team to a 5-10 record. The Mavs also won 60 games.


.

Dirk got hurt dude.. What use is it mentioning a team whose best player went down? Shaq was overweight that season, worn down and out of shape off three long playoff runs. Kobe and shaq started fueding over that..

You guys beat a dysfunctional, run down Laker team, a mavs team sans their best player, and a Nets team whose help outside their star was worse than Duncan's.

Hakeem won every series without hca as like a fifth seed.. You guys had hca throughout and we're a one seed. Hakeem faced legendary healthy competition. Duncan did not. They ain't comparable at all.

[mehyaM24]

Lost me there :roll:

I hope you're not arguing that Duncan has better supporting cast than Kobe.

98-03 Pop isn't worth mentioning. He was considered an above average coach back then, that's it.

Duncan had DRob in 99, and that's pretty much it. There's really nobody else worth mentioning other than Avery Johnson and Sean Elliott (who are nice players, but nothing special).

lol what?

duncan, david robinson, sean elliott and avery johnson along with the greatest coach in modern history is enough to compete for a title. easily.

and absolutely duncan had a better supporting cast those years. 2 experienced and coveted european players (manu was known as the "jordan" of his country and all across europe while tony parker was shredding the all-france league, winning mvps and championships). of course, you also had a david robinson who at his best was one of the greatest centers ever and a top 15 player of all time. can bruce bowen get a mention in these threads, as well? i swear duncan fans NEVER mention this guy when talking about the early to mid 2000 spurs teams. guy was the greatest perimeter defender of the 2000s along with being a VERY GOOD, and clutch 3-point shooter.

and just to elaborate on popovich - the genius and architect behind all the spurs championships. people often ask, "what did pop do without duncan"? well, when he was hired as headcoach, his two best players, robinson included, practically missed the entire season with injuries. putting aside that 97 season though, the guy's had san antonio competing for years - EVERY year as a matter of fact.

i used to think phil was the GOAT coach....that was until popovich showed me he could be an elite coach along with GM. seeking relatively "unknowns" in europe with little to no NBA experience, and winning titles with them - the ultimate basketball genius.

[bdreason]

Greater impact on the game, especially on the defensive side. Greater contributions for his 5 titles. Kobe should be thankful he's even in the conversation with the greatest PF of all-time.

[T_L_P]

Dirk got hurt dude.. What use is it mentioning a team whose best player went down? Shaq was overweight that season, worn down and out of shape off three long playoff runs. Kobe and shaq started fueding over that..

You guys beat a dysfunctional, run down Laker team, a mavs team sans their best player, and a Nets team whose help outside their star was worse than Duncan's.

Hakeem won every series without hca as like a fifth seed.. You guys had hca throughout and we're a one seed. Hakeem faced legendary healthy competition. Duncan did not. They ain't comparable at all.

Can you list the teams that won a title with a weaker group of players than the 03 Spurs?

[SouBeachTalents]

Can you list the teams that won a title with a weaker group of players than the 03 Spurs?

Only ones that are even debatable are the '75 Warriors, '94 Rockets, and the 2011 Mavs

[T_L_P]

i used to think phil was the GOAT coach....that was until popovich showed me he could be an elite coach along with GM. seeking relatively unknowns in europe, with little to no NBA experience, and winning titles with them - the ultimate basketball genius.

Sam Presti drafted Manu and Parker you fcking idiot. :roll:

09: first round loss
10: second round sweep
11: first round loss to 8th seed

Pop got thoroughly out-coached in every one of those series. He had no legitimate superstar (Duncan had his worst years), and yet Pop couldn't lead his team anywhere. His Playoff record in games without Duncan is something like 1-6.

Also, people do tend to under-mention Bowen (not me, he was our third most important player on the 03 and 05 teams). But you called him a HoFer, along with Michael Finley. :roll:

[tpols]

Can you list the teams that won a title with a weaker group of players than the 03 Spurs?
You have to examine who they beat along with the help.. Lakers were the only team with better talent than them that they beat.. But Spurs routinely finish with a better record than LA.. Always have hca.. Eventually, they're gonna win. When was the last time a team four peated? The 11 mavs did the same thing to the later Lakers except they did it without hca.. And every team they faced outside first round was more talented than them which wasn't true for the spurs at all.

If the nets knock off the spurs in the finals then they're the least talented team to win a title.. So I'm not gonna go crazy over the spurs overcoming the odds and beating a worse team than themselves while having home court. They were expected to win.. And you guys come in shocked. 11 mavs was shocking. 03 spurs was not. They weren't some dominant team but neither were the team's they faced.

[houston]

2011 mavs wayyyyyy better than 03 spurs

[mehyaM24]

Sam Presti drafted Manu and Parker you fcking idiot. :roll:

09: first round loss
10: second round sweep
11: first round loss to 8th seed

did i say otherwise? i mean, you do realize it was pop's idea seeing as how HE was the one who researched and scouted them? for your sake i hope that you're just pretending to be oblivious.



Pop got thoroughly out-coached in every one of those series.

are we supposed to ignore duncan being absolutely crushed in those series? 2011 vs memphis especially, where he closed the series out with games of 6, 12 and 13 points on roughly 39% shooting. pathethic display all around from a supposed top 10 player all time.

more importantly though, how does this and anything in your post take away from popovich's brilliance? ok, sure, the spurs have lost a few times in the playoffs. but the championships and complete evolvement the league is seeing because of the offense they run outweighs any point you think you've made.

[T_L_P]

did i say otherwise? i mean, you do realize it was pop's idea seeing as how HE was the one who researched and scouted them? for your sake i hope that you're just pretending to be oblivious.




are we supposed to ignore duncan being absolutely crushed in those series? 2011 vs memphis especially, where he closed the series out with games of 6, 12 and 13 points on roughly 39% shooting. pathethic display all around from a supposed top 10 player all time.

more importantly though, how does this and anything in your post take away from popovich's brilliance? ok, sure, the spurs have lost a few times in the playoffs. but the championships and complete evolvement the league is seeing because of the offense they run outweighs any point you think you've made.

It was RC (who is often the most undermentioned figure in the Spurs), who was then head scout, and Presti who scouted them. What's next, Bud orchestrated the Kawhi trade but it was Pop who scouted him? :oldlol:

I find it entirely funny that you'd give Pop the vast majority of the credit when he's been outcoached a number of times (not only from 09-11, also pretty much everytime he met Phil and even Avery Johnson in 06), but not do the same for, say, Phil in LA. The Lakers squads were stacked in 98 (4 All-Stars) and 99 (title favourites entering the season), but they ultimately failed because Shaq either choked or the entire team choked and Shaq showed no leadership. They go from getting swept in the second round every year to b2b2b2 champions...all because of the emergence of Phil (Shaq won another ring after playing second fiddle to Wade and was still being coached by one of the best ever).

[Shih508]

did i say otherwise? i mean, you do realize it was pop's idea seeing as how HE was the one who researched and scouted them? for your sake i hope that you're just pretending to be oblivious.




are we supposed to ignore duncan being absolutely crushed in those series? 2011 vs memphis especially, where he closed the series out with games of 6, 12 and 13 points on roughly 39% shooting. pathethic display all around from a supposed top 10 player all time.

more importantly though, how does this and anything in your post take away from popovich's brilliance? ok, sure, the spurs have lost a few times in the playoffs. but the championships and complete evolvement the league is seeing because of the offense they run outweighs any point you think you've made.

Trust me, without looking it up. Kobe has way more horrible performances during elimination games through out his career. It just another aspect that Duncan > Kobe

[Fire Colangelo]

How could Duncan have made pop when he's essentially created an offense that was nothing like what spurs ran with prime Duncan?

If Duncan made pop, the spurs would've fell off with Duncan's decline.. But they didn't.. They actually dominated harder than ever before. :oldlol:

What does Pop's system now have to do with 99 and 03? Pop is the GOAT coach, but he was merely above average back in 99 and 03.

Btw, the Spurs did fall with Duncan's decline. He's been declining since 08/09 and it's taken Pop a couple of years to adjust to to that.

[Fire Colangelo]

lol what?

duncan, david robinson, sean elliott and avery johnson along with the greatest coach in modern history is enough to compete for a title. easily.

and absolutely duncan had a better supporting cast those years. 2 experienced and coveted european players (manu was known as the "jordan" of his country and all across europe while tony parker was shredding the all-france league, winning mvps and championships). of course, you also had a david robinson who at his best was one of the greatest centers ever and a top 15 player of all time. can bruce bowen get a mention in these threads, as well? i swear duncan fans NEVER mention this guy when talking about the early to mid 2000 spurs teams. guy was the greatest perimeter defender of the 2000s along with being a VERY GOOD, and clutch 3-point shooter.

and just to elaborate on popovich - the genius and architect behind all the spurs championships. people often ask, "what did pop do without duncan"? well, when he was hired as headcoach, his two best players, robinson included, practically missed the entire season with injuries. putting aside that 97 season though, the guy's had san antonio competing for years - EVERY year as a matter of fact.

i used to think phil was the GOAT coach....that was until popovich showed me he could be an elite coach along with GM. seeking relatively "unknowns" in europe with little to no NBA experience, and winning titles with them - the ultimate basketball genius.

Pop, considered the GOAT coach in 1999. I've heard it all.

I love rob but he was at the end of his prime in 99 (though still effective) and a shell in 03.

Bowen was a good defender, a Tony Allen type of guy with a 3 pointer minus the athleticism.

[HurricaneKid]

Did a Kobe Stan really say Kobe was a better defender than Timmy?

I'm going to try to calculate the difference in their aggregate defensive contributions omorrow when I get some time. I bet it's at least 1000 points over the course of their careers.

Saying something like that should get you banned from future basketball conversations and leave you in a small padded cell with a straightjacket.

[HurricaneKid]

That was actually easier than I was thinking. And a bigger number too. 3400+ points difference. That's incredible.

[HOoopCityJones]

Has Duncan ever even scored more than 40 pts in his career?

[T_L_P]

Has Duncan ever even scored more than 40 pts in his career?

Yes, he has ten 40 point games (the same number as Magic).

What's funny is, Duncan has better raw stats even though he routinely played on slower teams. And unlike Kobe/LeBron/Superstar, he didn't care about them. :confusedshrug:

[AirFederer]

Timmy's so much better that it's not even close.

[pegasus]

Give me Kobe. Duncan is an all-time great too, but with Kobe you pretty much know you'll win if you surround him with decent teammates. With Duncan, it's a hit and miss every year. And Kobe had crazy series against the Spurs.

[Springsteen]

I think where they are in their careers right also plays into the argument. If you look at Duncan's play at his age and Kobe's, without looking at the records of the respective teams, Duncan's is obviously more efficient while Kobe is honestly not efficient at all and in many cases a detriment. The way Duncan is still playing up to, and in some cases outplaying players at his age right now is a testament to how great of a player he is and his understanding of the fundamentals of the game.

[Shih508]

Has Duncan ever even scored more than 40 pts in his career?

AI has scored more 50 pts games in PO than Kobe by 3:1 so AI > Kobe?

I dunno what are u trying to ask.


Duncan > Kobe

[Myth]

Give me Kobe. Duncan is an all-time great too, but with Kobe you pretty much know you'll win if you surround him with decent teammates. With Duncan, it's a hit and miss every year. And Kobe had crazy series against the Spurs.

You didn't really think this post out, did you? :lol

[mehyaM24]

It was RC (who is often the most undermentioned figure in the Spurs), who was then head scout, and Presti who scouted them. What's next, Bud orchestrated the Kawhi trade but it was Pop who scouted him? :oldlol:

once again, it was pop behind the idea. after his trip to the 1988 european/germany championships, he was exposed to foreign players. timmy, tony and manu have all said as much, as has pop.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yE4Ld2k-L5Q

are you going to try and refute popovich's actual experiences in reality now? :oldlol:

[Viriilink]

09: first round loss
10: second round sweep
11: first round loss to 8th seed

Pop got thoroughly out-coached in every one of those series. He had no legitimate superstar (Duncan had his worst years), and yet Pop couldn't lead his team anywhere. His Playoff record in games without Duncan is something like 1-6.


2009: Ginobili was out and Spurs were a team that relied on their big three to carry the offensive load for them to win. Even with the three healthy, people were questioning if the Spurs could score enough points back then.

2010: Pretty sure Dallas was expected to knock them out first round.

2011: That year was all Manu and he was out first game. That year was more about match-ups problem than coaching. Can't seriously expect Blair, Bonner, and McDyess to defend Marc Gasol and Zach Randolph.

I remember in another post, you were wondering why Popovich didn't play Splitter. David Aldridge said Pop told him because Splitter was practically injured the entire season. I doubt it would've mattered though because Splitter was about as good as Baynes on defense back then. 2012-2013 was when he became a good defender. Also, I think he did play Splitter, but Splitter accumulated fouls quick.

[LoneyROY7]

Give me Kobe. Duncan is an all-time great too, but with Kobe you pretty much know you'll win if you surround him with decent teammates. With Duncan, it's a hit and miss every year. And Kobe had crazy series against the Spurs.

:biggums:

[jstern]

Since we're using arbitrary measurements like 6-24.

http://cdn2.sbnation.com/imported_assets/1673453/duncanmiss.gif

That gif is unbelievable. According to the logic, if he makes shot on that one play, he's a better basketball player than Kobe Bryant, but if he misses it, than he's a worse player. All despite still being the same player impact wise. 50 50 chance.

[pegasus]

You didn't really think this post out, did you? :lol
By "hit and miss" I was referring to his lack of success when it comes to winning back to back chips, not making and missing the playoffs.

[TheMarkMadsen]

By "hit and miss" I was referring to his lack of success when it comes to winning back to back chips, not making and missing the playoffs.

Exactly Duncan has never been able to lead his teams to back to back championships.

Which is ironic considering he's had the most stable front office/ supporting cast / coach of the last 20 years.

Duncan has had 2 all star guards besides him for the last decade.

[T_L_P]

Exactly Duncan has never been able to lead his teams to back to back championships.

Which is ironic considering he's had the most stable front office/ supporting cast / coach of the last 20 years.

Duncan has had 2 all star guards besides him for the last decade.

91 Jordan
94 Hakeem
11 Dirk

99, 03, 05, 07 Duncan

0 for Shaq
0 for Kobe
0 for Magic

[Fire Colangelo]

Kobe stans running out of arguments, resorting to "Kobe repeated".

:oldlol:

lol @ Kobe not having great front office/supporting cast.

[TheMarkMadsen]

91 Jordan
94 Hakeem
11 Dirk

99, 03, 05, 07 Duncan

0 for Shaq
0 for Kobe
0 for Magic

What is this supposed to mean?

99 = joke of a season because of the lockout, Robinson was still great, arguably as impactful as Duncan in the playoffs. Faced the 8th seed Knicks who were missing Ewing.

05. Ginobili was better in the finals. You know this

07 Duncan wasn't even FMVP in his prime.

Parker is has 4 all nba selections is a 6x all star, Duncan has had this guy for 12 years, plus another all star in Manu and great role players.

Pau Gasol has 2 all nba selections and is a 4x all star. Kobe has this guy for 5 years and no other all stars and went to 3 straight finals while winning 2 straight titles. Duncan could only dream of that type of finals success.

[T_L_P]

What is this supposed to mean?

99 = joke of a season because of the lockout, Robinson was still great, arguably as impactful as Duncan in the playoffs. Faced the 8th seed Knicks who were missing Ewing.

05. Ginobili was better in the finals. You know this

07 Duncan wasn't even FMVP in his prime.

Parker is has 4 all nba selections is a 6x all star, Duncan has had this guy for 12 years, plus another all star in Manu and great role players.

Pau Gasol has 2 all nba selections and is a 4x all star. Kobe has this guy for 5 years and no other all stars and went to 3 straight finals while winning 2 straight titles. Duncan could only dream of that type of finals success.

It means in those seasons Duncan wasn't playing with anyone considered to be a top 15 player. Kobe never did that.

99 Playoff Robinson and 05 Playoff Manu would have been All-NBAers. Not anyone in 03 or 07. The same simply can't be said for Kobe.

He had a 30/15 guy for 8 years then peak Gasol who averaged 19/11/4 on incredible efficiency and usually lead the Lakers in advanced stats (except for the 09 Playoffs).

Star power trumps all, there's no question about it. Duncan had two years of a superstar-liken Robinson, and maybe 4 years combined or stardom from Manu/Parker (05, 10 and 11 Manu, 13 Parker). And just an FYI, 16/3/6 and making an All-Star Team doesn't make you a star.

Look at the first couple of pages. Parker was horrible on three of the four title teams (including last year's in the Playoffs). If he's one of the three best teammates Duncan had, it really does speak to his impact.

[toxicxr6]

What is this supposed to mean?

99 = joke of a season because of the lockout, Robinson was still great, arguably as impactful as Duncan in the playoffs. Faced the 8th seed Knicks who were missing Ewing.

05. Ginobili was better in the finals. You know this

07 Duncan wasn't even FMVP in his prime.

Parker is has 4 all nba selections is a 6x all star, Duncan has had this guy for 12 years, plus another all star in Manu and great role players.

Pau Gasol has 2 all nba selections and is a 4x all star. Kobe has this guy for 5 years and no other all stars and went to 3 straight finals while winning 2 straight titles. Duncan could only dream of that type of finals success.




LOL
No mention of Shaq here at all.. the guy that carried Kobe to 3 championships.. A guy that is vastly superior to and player Duncan played with.. and its not even remotely close.. If shaq doesn't go to LA.. Kobe wouldn't be anywhere near top 10.. not even close.. Kobe has shaq to thank for that
and Gasol is at least if not better than any player Duncan played with as well.. then you have prime Howard as well.. again at least as good as any player Duncan had.. its not Duncan fault Kobe scrubbed it up with Howard

Duncan achieved more with less.. has ALWAYS been a contender.. Not like Kobe cant even make the playoffs in his prime :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

Kobe stans need to GTFO... this argument is done Duncan>Kobe and there is NOTHING you can say to change that.. Your better off fighting the battle with the Lebron stans now because Lebron is probably the next one passing kobe.. You have already lost the battle with Duncan time to fight the one with Lebron kobe stans

5/3/2>>>>>> 5/2/1

KO its over kobe stans

[TheMarkMadsen]

LOL
No mention of Shaq here at all.. the guy that carried Kobe to 3 championships.. A guy that is vastly superior to and player Duncan played with.. and its not even remotely close.. If shaq doesn't go to LA.. Kobe wouldn't be anywhere near top 10.. not even close.. Kobe has shaq to thank for that
and Gasol is at least if not better than any player Duncan played with as well.. then you have prime Howard as well.. again at least as good as any player Duncan had.. its not Duncan fault Kobe scrubbed it up with Howard

Duncan achieved more with less.. has ALWAYS been a contender.. Not like Kobe cant even make the playoffs in his prime :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

Kobe stans need to GTFO... this argument is done Duncan>Kobe and there is NOTHING you can say to change that.. Your better off fighting the battle with the Lebron stans now because Lebron is probably the next one passing kobe.. You have already lost the battle with Duncan time to fight the one with Lebron kobe stans

5/3/2>>>>>> 5/2/1

KO its over kobe stans

I can't take anybody seriously when they say Shaq carried Kobe.

"Hurp da durp Shaq carried Kobe, Duncan had no help"

[TheMarkMadsen]

It means in those seasons Duncan wasn't playing with anyone considered to be a top 15 player. Kobe never did that.

99 Playoff Robinson and 05 Playoff Manu would have been All-NBAers. Not anyone in 03 or 07. The same simply can't be said for Kobe.

He had a 30/15 guy for 8 years then peak Gasol who averaged 19/11/4 on incredible efficiency and usually lead the Lakers in advanced stats (except for the 09 Playoffs).

Star power trumps all, there's no question about it. Duncan had two years of a superstar-liken Robinson, and maybe 4 years combined or stardom from Manu/Parker (05, 10 and 11 Manu, 13 Parker). And just an FYI, 16/3/6 and making an All-Star Team doesn't make you a star.

Look at the first couple of pages. Parker was horrible on three of the four title teams (including last year's in the Playoffs). If he's one of the three best teammates Duncan had, it really does speak to his impact.

Such a load of shit.

Duncan has had Parker for Parker's entire career. Parker's is a 4x all nba player, twice as many selections as Pau. Pau only managed third team, while Pakeee has numerous second team selections. Simply put, Paker has more years of being at the top of his position than Pau does. He was the 07 FMVP, stole a FMVP from a Duncan while Duncan was still an elite player.

Not only has he had Parker, he's had Manu, who is an all NBA level player coming off the bench. Duncan has had these guys for the past decade plus..

Duncan has been getting carried to the playoffs the past 8 years. He has shrunk into a role player for multiple years and it never affected the teams wins and losses. He puts up 14 & 10 and his team wins the finals, how does that not show you the amazing amount of help he has. He hasn't been the best player on his team in a finals series since 03 ffs.

Kobe won more without Shaq then Shaq won without Kobe. So there goes that carrying bullshit. Shaq NEVER GOT IT DONE against Duncan without an elite Kobe beside him. Kobe's 01 run was more dominant than any post season run Duncan has ever had sans 03, so to try and diminish those runs are hilarious.


Duncan has had Pau Gasol level players at the guard postion for over a decade and never could lead the team to b2b titles. It wasnt until he took a major step back offensively, and added even more help the that team that they were able to make b2b finals.

Truly dominant players dominant post seasons in succession, Duncan never has. And guess what? His best opportunity came in 2008. He had a tremendously talented team that year, more talented than the Lakers, and Kobe destroyed them.

[rmt]

I can't take anybody seriously when they say Shaq carried Kobe.

"Hurp da durp Shaq carried Kobe, Duncan had no help"

Not 8 years of MDE, Shaq-type help. Take a look at the salaries in championship years. I can only imagine how much talent San Antonio could get for $91million+ (especially in 2010 dollars). Do you think that LAL would have to trade away talent like Scola just to get rid of Jackie Butler's contract (measly $2million/yr) because of salary concerns? We won't even talk about attracting free agents to SA instead of LA.


99 $43,681,143

00 $55,018,533
01 $58,968,213
02 $54,262,017

03 $53,182,559

05 $47,504,123

07 $65,654,320

09 $78,245,793
10 $91,378,064

14 $63,666,028

[tpols]

Star power trumps all, there's no question.

On the spurs? No... They dominated last couple years with no superstars. This is a completely arbitrary argument.. You would think a spurs fan would know the difference between a team that relies on star power and one that wins as an unselfish unit.. According to your logic you guys shoulda been SMOKED by OKC last year since Westbrook and Durant were higher caliber stars than anyone on your team.. Tell me how that went again.

[T_L_P]

Such a load of shit.

Duncan has had Parker for Parker's entire career. Parker's is a 4x all nba player, twice as many selections as Pau. Pau only managed third team, while Pakeee has numerous second team selections. Simply put, Paker has more years of being at the top of his position than Pau does. He was the 07 FMVP, stole a FMVP from a Duncan while Duncan was still an elite player.

Not only has he had Parker, he's had Manu, who is an all NBA level player coming off the bench. Duncan has had these guys for the past decade plus..

Duncan has been getting carried to the playoffs the past 8 years. He has shrunk into a role player for multiple years and it never affected the teams wins and losses. He puts up 14 & 10 and his team wins the finals, how does that not show you the amazing amount of help he has. He hasn't been the best player on his team in a finals series since 03 ffs.

Kobe won more without Shaq then Shaq won without Kobe. So there goes that carrying bullshit. Shaq NEVER GOT IT DONE against Duncan without an elite Kobe beside him. Kobe's 01 run was more dominant than any post season run Duncan has ever had sans 03, so to try and diminish those runs are hilarious.


Duncan has had Pau Gasol level players at the guard postion for over a decade and never could lead the team to b2b titles. It wasnt until he took a major step back offensively, and added even more help the that team that they were able to make b2b finals.

Truly dominant players dominant post seasons in succession, Duncan never has. And guess what? His best opportunity came in 2008. He had a tremendously talented team that year, more talented than the Lakers, and Kobe destroyed them.

Like I said, somehow it's only the silly, delusional Kobe stans who think Parker can be compared to Gasol. Parker was terrible on three championship teams. You still haven't debated that. You're just assuming he was elite because he was an All-Star in the Regular Season. Tell me why he was good in the 03, 05 or 14 Playoffs and then there is something to discuss.

Duncan lead the team in Regular Season Win Shares in most of those past 8 years, and most of them in the Playoffs too. When Duncan was at his worst, we got bumped from the Playoffs three years straight. So you're just lying if you say Duncan's teams can win without him. They can win Regular Season games without him (just like the 94 Bulls or the Lakers post Kareem did), but the Playoffs is a different story: one matters, the other doesn't.

Also, regarding your Finals statement: he was the best Spur in the 2013 Finals. So there goes that BS idea. Kobe put up 14 PPG on 36% shooting (which is like a million times worse than 16/10 on 57% shooting and elite defense) and his team still won. The stackdness of having peak O'Neal and the GOAT coach = unreal.

Like it or not, Kobe never won a ring without another All-NBA player. If you're going to revise history and act like 07 Parker was one, fine. But that 03 squad clearly didn't, and we've seen just how poorly Kobe's teams perform without another star and Phil Jackson (before Phil he was a bench scrub, in 05 he couldn't stay on the floor and missed the Playoffs, and in the years since he has been absolutely irrelevant).

Meanwhile in Playoff games without Duncan Pop is 1-6.

[TheBigVeto]

Duncan >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kobe, it isn't even close.

Kobe should be compared to guys like Harold Miner.

[gilalizard]

Kobe's a Team killer too remember? The worst of all according to some here, yet the Team thrived once he joined. You guys have these tired half assed arguments and you'll get the same type of responses in return until I read a serious one.

The Olympic coaching staff fundamentally changed. That was the difference. If Kobe had been on the team in 2004 it wouldn't of made a difference. The team was run like shit.

[rmt]

Duncan has been and still is the most important Spur (except for 2011 when he had a poor year). Ask yourself if the Spurs will go further in the playoffs without Duncan or without Parker.

Cory Joseph has been doing a fine job, Mills will soon brush off the rust and Manu is de facto PG of the second unit. If Duncan goes down, there's Splitter (who averages a measly 18.5 minutes/game and is always injured) and Diaw who's exhausted from playing all summer. Then there's Bonner, Baynes, Ayres and Daye - good luck with them.

[Shih508]

What is this supposed to mean?

99 = joke of a season because of the lockout, Robinson was still great, arguably as impactful as Duncan in the playoffs. Faced the 8th seed Knicks who were missing Ewing.

05. Ginobili was better in the finals. You know this

07 Duncan wasn't even FMVP in his prime.

Parker is has 4 all nba selections is a 6x all star, Duncan has had this guy for 12 years, plus another all star in Manu and great role players.

Pau Gasol has 2 all nba selections and is a 4x all star. Kobe has this guy for 5 years and no other all stars and went to 3 straight finals while winning 2 straight titles. Duncan could only dream of that type of finals success.

00 = got carried

01 = got carried

02 = rigged

03 = lost the champ for being a selfish ass

08 = blown out in elimination game

09 = got carried by bigs again

10 = rigged

[houston]

Such a load of shit.

Duncan has had Parker for Parker's entire career. Parker's is a 4x all nba player, twice as many selections as Pau. Pau only managed third team, while Pakeee has numerous second team selections. Simply put, Paker has more years of being at the top of his position than Pau does. He was the 07 FMVP, stole a FMVP from a Duncan while Duncan was still an elite player.

Not only has he had Parker, he's had Manu, who is an all NBA level player coming off the bench. Duncan has had these guys for the past decade plus..

Duncan has been getting carried to the playoffs the past 8 years. He has shrunk into a role player for multiple years and it never affected the teams wins and losses. He puts up 14 & 10 and his team wins the finals, how does that not show you the amazing amount of help he has. He hasn't been the best player on his team in a finals series since 03 ffs.

Kobe won more without Shaq then Shaq won without Kobe. So there goes that carrying bullshit. Shaq NEVER GOT IT DONE against Duncan without an elite Kobe beside him. Kobe's 01 run was more dominant than any post season run Duncan has ever had sans 03, so to try and diminish those runs are hilarious.


Duncan has had Pau Gasol level players at the guard postion for over a decade and never could lead the team to b2b titles. It wasnt until he took a major step back offensively, and added even more help the that team that they were able to make b2b finals.

Truly dominant players dominant post seasons in succession, Duncan never has. And guess what? His best opportunity came in 2008. He had a tremendously talented team that year, more talented than the Lakers, and Kobe destroyed them.


Don't forget Bruce Bowen the best wing defender during that time. Duncan had his fair share of help to win his championships. Like you said he had Parker and Manu all his career. Plus he won championships with all-time great center.

[TheBigVeto]

00 = got carried

01 = got carried

02 = rigged

03 = lost the champ for being a selfish ass

08 = blown out in elimination game

09 = got carried by bigs again

10 = rigged

:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

[rmt]

Don't forget Bruce Bowen the best wing defender during that time. Duncan had his fair share of help to win his championships. Like you said he had Parker and Manu all his career. Plus he won championships with all-time great center.

You guys act as if Parker and Manu have been around all of Duncan's career. Or that at the beginning, Parker and Manu were the players they are now. Parker was a very raw, 19 year old rookie with not much more than his speed when he took over starting PG duties. Duncan did win a championship without either of them, you know.

And DRob was not an all-time great center in 03 with 7.8 pts / 6.6 rebs in 23 mins/playoff game.

[julizaver]

Serious question. :biggums:


Here I am reading through all this shit that says Kobe is the player of the decade along with the Lakers being the Team of the decade, The NBA site itself blasting Timmy for losing in the 2004 Olympics

"Summer Olympics loss, 2004. A team coached by Larry Brown and led by Duncan, LeBron, Allen Iverson and Carmelo Anthony would beat anyone. Except Argentina. And Lithuania. And Puerto Rico, which won by 19 and shattered the USA's dominance in Olympic hoops. While the international competition was slowly catching up even before the Athens Games, it was still shocking to see the USA taking a beating and the bronze."



To start with Summer Olympics:
Lebron and Carmelo were 20 years old with limiteid minutes and for Lebron I am sure he had no impact on that team (no time to go check the stats just by memory) and doesn't counts in that occasion. Tim Dunkan was probably the best player/performer on that team and he was co-captaining with Iverson. Iverson was somehow underperforming (selfish again) and he just doesn't fit under FIBA system. It was not a real basketball team. That team was exactly the oposite of a Spurs team.

[HurricaneKid]

RAPM is probably my favorite stat. Its primary limitation is that you need substantial sample size and a lot of times by the time you get samples big enough a player isn't still playing at that level.

But with Kobe and Timmy you have enormous 17 year+ data sets to look at.

Now this doesn't include this season (for which Kobestans should be thankful):

https://sites.google.com/site/rapmstats/97-14-rapm-2


Timmy- Points above average player: 4963
Kobe - Points above average player: 3010

Kobe was the better offensive player by almost exactly 1500 points.
Timmy was 3342 points better defensively.

Per 100 possessions
Timmy 5.08
Kobe 2.96

Its really not close. Usually Kobe has a substantial advantage in winning but not against Timmy. Timmy has actually played 34 more playoff games.