1996 MVP and best player

[mehyaM24]

*if anyone hasn't seen my 1993 MVP and best player thread (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=364608), please to so.

the best, most critical and efficient way of valuing a players impact is using the metric, RAPM - another way of measuring who the most valuable is and who has the most impact to their teams and across the league. of course, "real rapm" wasn't measured until ~1997, but this still does a MUCH better job than per (adjusting many different lineups BUT singling out individual impact, NOT team), and as others have said, its better than nothing (beside watching game tape).*

so lets get started.

the 1996 MVP and best player - both IMO had to have been david robinson. not only did robinson have the CLEAR highest RAPM that season, but also the highest player efficiency rating, most double-doubles, was 2nd in rebounds (22 games of 15+ rebounds, 6 games of 18+ rebounds, 2 games of 20+ rebounds), 3rd in points (23 games of 30+ points), and 3rd in blocks (23 games of 5+ blocks, 3 games of 8+ blocks - statistically, as you can see, he was just a notch above the rest.

what REALLY seals his case is the fact, david accomplished this in a tougher western conference (suns, jazz, rockets, lakers, sonics), leading his team to the second best record out there.

in the playoffs you ask? against barkley's suns, david averaged 30/12/4 on 62%TS (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGYuilnrMnY). staggering dominance and efficiency. of course - he caught the injury bug in the second round of the playoffs, and the rest was history. we cannot ignore the work he put in throughout the 82 game season and first round of the playoffs though. doing so would be ignorant.

who do i have behind robinson that season? my top 5 follows:

* david robinson
* shaq
* pippen/jordan
* jordan/pippen
* alonzo mourning

if you want to read up on david robinson's career, and it being undervalued, i suggest this article: http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fancy-stats/wp/2014/09/05/nba-retrometrics-why-david-robinson-is-underrated/

1992 and 1997 will be done shortly with reference points to each thread, along with a final conclusion (will be its own thread) to put everything in full circle.

[3ball]

Jordan is #1 in RAPM for 1996:.. http://www.apbr.org/metrics/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8671#p20657

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1nqWP4Lu7lBjAydga0vrN1Gv4L686iA1AktvFj4vgKSo/edit?pli=1#gid=1715147358

[riseagainst]

Jordan is #1 in RAPM for 1996:.. http://www.apbr.org/metrics/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8671#p20657

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1nqWP4Lu7lBjAydga0vrN1Gv4L686iA1AktvFj4vgKSo/edit?pli=1#gid=1715147358


Penny Hardaway highest net on/off.

:bowdown:

[mehyaM24]

more of robinson's great games from that season:

37/15/7 vs Suns (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-UUpgoWUNto)
30/12/4 vs Bulls (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJkAElB9W1U)

the simple fact he led the league in DRTG, PER (tiebreaker goes to DRob), and had the most double-doubles along with being top 3-5 in major statistical catogories makes this an easy pick.

btw, good looking out on the adjusted RAPM. this will help me with my 1997 thread. :cheers:

[Nowitness]

Gary Peyton.

[juju151111]

RAPM says Mj. Mj was the MVp and best player leading the best team.

[julizaver]

*if anyone hasn't seen my 1993 MVP and best player thread (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=364608), please to so.

the best, most critical and efficient way of valuing a players impact is using the metric, RAPM - another way of measuring who the most valuable is and who has the most impact to their teams and across the league. of course, "real rapm" wasn't measured until ~1997, but this still does a MUCH better job than per (adjusting many different lineups BUT singling out individual impact, NOT team), and as others have said, its better than nothing (beside watching game tape).*

so lets get started.

the 1996 MVP and best player - both IMO had to have been david robinson. not only did robinson have the CLEAR highest RAPM that season, but also the highest player efficiency rating, most double-doubles, was 2nd in rebounds (22 games of 15+ rebounds, 6 games of 18+ rebounds, 2 games of 20+ rebounds), 3rd in points (23 games of 30+ points), and 3rd in blocks (23 games of 5+ blocks, 3 games of 8+ blocks - statistically, as you can see, he was just a notch above the rest.

what REALLY seals his case is the fact, david accomplished this in a tougher western conference (suns, jazz, rockets, lakers, sonics), leading his team to the second best record out there.

in the playoffs you ask? against barkley's suns, david averaged 30/12/4 on 62%TS (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGYuilnrMnY). staggering dominance and efficiency. of course - he caught the injury bug in the second round of the playoffs, and the rest was history. we cannot ignore the work he put in throughout the 82 game season and first round of the playoffs though. doing so would be ignorant.

who do i have behind robinson that season? my top 5 follows:

* david robinson
* shaq
* pippen/jordan
* jordan/pippen
* alonzo mourning

if you want to read up on david robinson's career, and it being undervalued, i suggest this article: http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fancy-stats/wp/2014/09/05/nba-retrometrics-why-david-robinson-is-underrated/

1992 and 1997 will be done shortly with reference points to each thread, along with a final conclusion (will be its own thread) to put everything in full circle.

David Robinson received 5 times between 1989 and 1996 the IBM award, which is given to the player who contributes statistically most to his team (similar to PER). But that doesn't mean that he was the best player in 1996. I would give the edge to MJ as the best in 1996 season.
In 1994 DR had the award, but was outplayed by Hakeem in the WCF.

[mehyaM24]

RAPM says Mj. Mj was the MVp and best player leading the best team.
scottie pippen had arguably as good of a season as jordan, before hurting his back. i think it was jordan who said scottie could be argued as the games best player, leading the team in defensive metrics.

of course, i could see the case being made for jordan. best record in the league, highest scoring points, and just edging out robinson in rapm (credit to fpliii). look at my op though. david robinson to me did MORE for his team, leading the league in more major stat categories while ALSO playing in a tougher conference.

[riseagainst]

scottie pippen had arguably as good of a season as jordan, before hurting his back. i think it was jordan who said scottie could be argued as the games best player, leading the team in defensive metrics.

of course, i could see the case being made for jordan. best record in the league, highest scoring points, and just edging out robinson in rapm (credit to fpliii). look at my op though. david robinson to me did MORE for his team, leading the league in more major stat categories while ALSO playing in a tougher conference.


arguable. The Kings were 39-43 and still made the playoffs and 7th seed Suns was right at .5. While the 8th seeded Heat was at least .5 in the East.

[riseagainst]

MJ also had the most ws48 in 96 at .317, 2nd highest in his career. And 2nd highest post season ws48 of his career at .306. His highest for both RS and PO was 91. So in terms of MVP prowess and value to his team, 96 is probably his 2nd best season.

[mehyaM24]

arguable. The Kings were 39-43 and still made the playoffs and 7th seed Suns was right at .5. While the 8th seeded Heat was at least .5 in the East.
good point. although, i would say the suns, jazz, rockets, lakers, and spurs were better than ALL TEAMS in the eastern conference except for the magic (grant injured in playoffs) and bulls. more top heavy, but still greater IMO.

here are more of robinson's best statistical games:
20/21/8 vs blazers (http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199601260SAS.html)
24/20/6/4 vs cavs (http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199601100SAS.html)
19/19/4/4 vs celtics (http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199602070BOS.html)
28/18/6/4 vs heat (http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199603140SAS.html)
45/16/3 vs knicks (http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199512100NYK.html)
39/9/8/3 vs blazers (http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199602200POR.html)
40/11/5/5 vs lakers (http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199604070LAL.html)
27/14/6/4 vs hornets (http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199511180SAS.html)

:eek:

[T_L_P]

OP, you definitely should have noted D-Rob's stats in his last Playoff series of that season.

19.0/9.0/2.0/1.7/2.5 on .475 FG%, .526 TS%, with an average GameScore of 15.8, against a 55 win Utah team (Spurs won 59 games iirc, they certainly had Home Court Advantage).

Jordan was the best player in the league that year. Like the poster above said, he had a .306 WS/48 in the Playoffs, absurd for a player who went through every round. D-Rob is a very, very close second (and probably the MVP).

[mehyaM24]

tlp - i pointed out his series vs utah, saying he battled soreness in his back. what i did neglect to mention was the foul trouble david had in game 4, which swayed his stat output. he played just 25 minutes or so in that game, only attempting 3 shots.

http://www.nytimes.com/1996/05/13/sports/nba-playoffs-robinson-s-struggles-allow-jazz-to-take-2-game-lead.html

i dont mind anyone picking jordan. i just think david provided more for his team (rebounding, rim protection, scoring, playmaking etc)

[juju151111]

scottie pippen had arguably as good of a season as jordan, before hurting his back. i think it was jordan who said scottie could be argued as the games best player, leading the team in defensive metrics.

of course, i could see the case being made for jordan. best record in the league, highest scoring points, and just edging out robinson in rapm (credit to fpliii). look at my op though. david robinson to me did MORE for his team, leading the league in more major stat categories while ALSO playing in a tougher conference.
Scottie Pippen didn't hold up for the whole season.

[juju151111]

tlp - i pointed out his series vs utah, saying he battled soreness in his back. what i did neglect to mention was the foul trouble david had in game 4, which swayed his stat output. he played just 25 minutes or so in that game, only attempting 3 shots.

http://www.nytimes.com/1996/05/13/sports/nba-playoffs-robinson-s-struggles-allow-jazz-to-take-2-game-lead.html

i dont mind anyone picking jordan. i just think david provided more for his team (rebounding, rim protection, scoring, playmaking etc)
Mj was the best player the whole year. David had his opportunities to lead his team to at least the finals in 93 and 95 but got raped by Barkley and Hakeem.

[mehyaM24]

Mj was the best player the whole year. David had his opportunities to lead his team to at least the finals in 93 and 95 but got raped by Barkley and Hakeem.
93 and 95 arent being discussed here, as i dont have robinson as the best player in either of those seasons.

1993-95 was hakeem's league

[CAstill]

Garbage. I don't care what any stats say. No one in the world was a better player than Shawn Kemp in 96, including Jordan.

[GimmeThat]

we should just do away with the DPOY

it's as if no one cares about that award.
or how is that even calculated?

[juju151111]

93 and 95 arent being discussed here, as i dont have robinson as the best player in either of those seasons.

1993-95 was hakeem's league
He had similar stats in 95. He still wasn't doing much.

[mehyaM24]

He had similar stats in 95. He still wasn't doing much.
similar stats =/= same impact

forget that hakeem, barkley, drexler and ewing all had down seasons - robinson had to do more for THIS spurs team, as they missed 3 quarters of their bench that year due to injuries. obviously this makes sense because if we look at the "fake" RAPM for 1996, robinson is head and shoulders above everyone else that season.

of course, his PER was still atop of the league along with his defensive rating.

[juju151111]

similar stats =/= same impact

forget that hakeem, barkley, drexler and ewing all had down seasons - robinson had to do more for THIS spurs team, as they missed 3 quarters of their bench that year due to injuries. obviously this makes sense because if we look at the "fake" RAPM for 1996, robinson is head and shoulders above everyone else that season.

of course, his PER was still atop of the league and was his defensive rating.
Same crap in 95 his mvp season. He did the same shit. Go look at his stats and ratings.

[mehyaM24]

Same crap in 95 his mvp season. He did the same shit. Go look at his stats and ratings.
once again, same stats don't account for impact to said season. too many variables, specifically injuries and roster changes.

and once again, i have hakeem as the best player in 1995. yes, he did embarrass robinson, something i pointed out in my 1993 thread when that year and matchup was also brought up.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Did anyone doubt given the OP's history plus his 1993 best player thread that he wouldn't have Jordan as the best player in any of his "player of the year" threads? :oldlol: It was so obvious.

1996 was EASILY Jordan's year. Had the best numbers (top 2 minimum), superb defense, and put those numbers up on a record-setting team while playing championship level team ball. LOL @ OP's agenda with these threads.

[juju151111]

once again, same stats don't account for impact to said season. too many variables, specifically injuries and roster changes.

and once again, i have hakeem as the best player in 1995. yes, he did embarrass robinson, something i pointed out in my 1993 thread when that year and matchup was also brought up.
Same impact too. He wasn't doing much and especially playoffs time. He choked like always.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I could see the case being made for D-Rob if we're talking about MVP. Best player, not sure. Jordan was Jordan all season, capping his year off with a chip and Finals MVP for good measure.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Robinson was not even close to Jordan in 1996. I mean, wow. :oldlol: Jordan was on a mission and ended up owning the league. This is not even as close as Lebron/KD was in 2012 - that was a much closer comparison.

EDIT: And I dont care who said what, but the notion that Pippen was close to Jordan in 1996 is even more farcical.

[juju151111]

Did anyone doubt given the OP's history plus his 1993 best player thread that he wouldn't have Jordan as the best player in any of his "player of the year" threads? :oldlol: It was so obvious.

1996 was EASILY Jordan's year. Had the best numbers (top 2 minimum), superb defense, and put those numbers up on a record-setting team while playing championship level team ball. LOL @ OP's agenda with these threads.
I'm not even taking him serious. He a joke at this point.

[mehyaM24]

Same impact too. He wasn't doing much and especially playoffs time. He choked like always.
30/12/4 against the suns before hurting his back versus UTAH AND being limited with foul trouble? and for the last time, his impact was NOT the same as stats show. i'm not interested in bringing up other seasons, so this will be my last post addressing you.

[juju151111]

30/12/4 against the suns before hurting his back versus UTAH AND being limited with foul trouble? and for the last time, his impact was NOT the same as stats show. i'm not interested in bringing up other seasons, so this will be my last post addressing you.
Like I said he choked in the playoffs THAT year.

[mehyaM24]

Robinson was not even close to Jordan in 1996. I mean, wow. :oldlol: Jordan was on a mission and ended up owning the league. This is not even as close as Lebron/KD was in 2012 - that was a much closer comparison.

EDIT: And I dont care who said what, but the notion that Pippen was close to Jordan in 1996 is even more farcical.
stats suggest robinson and jordan were in fact VERY close. i dont mind that you have jordan "better", but to say it isn't close? delusional.

top 5 in more MAJOR statistical categories, higher PER (has the tiebreaker) along with a slight worse RAPM to jordan (also played in a MUCH TOUGHER, top heavy conference).

the fact THAT jordan himself said pippen could be argued as the better/best player (when healthy) makes everything you just posted non sequitur.

[riseagainst]

stats suggest robinson and jordan were in fact VERY close. i dont mind that you have jordan "better", but to say it isn't close? delusional.


but MJ took his play to the playoffs, where DRob did not.

[brooks_thompson]

72-10 is probably the greatest testament to Jordan's unquenchable desire to win. It may not be framed with metrics, but I think common sense wins the day here. The best you're gonna get from anyone responding to your analysis is 'I see why you think that way. BUT...')

[magnax1]

Stats don't mean shit without context. Jordan was considerably better than Robinson. He was just exiting his prime and played an ubelievably smart and efficient season within the context of his team. This sort of thing is like saying Davis is the best player in the league because of his stats.

[sportjames23]

Did anyone doubt given the OP's history plus his 1993 best player thread that he wouldn't have Jordan as the best player in any of his "player of the year" threads? :oldlol: It was so obvious.

1996 was EASILY Jordan's year. Had the best numbers (top 2 minimum), superb defense, and put those numbers up on a record-setting team while playing championship level team ball. LOL @ OP's agenda with these threads.

/thread

Oh, and OP is a fakkit.

[OldSchoolBBall]

stats suggest robinson and jordan were in fact VERY close. i dont mind that you have jordan "better", but to say it isn't close? delusional.

top 5 in more MAJOR statistical categories, higher PER (has the tiebreaker) along with a slight worse RAPM to jordan (also played in a MUCH TOUGHER, top heavy conference).

the fact THAT jordan himself said pippen could be argued as the better/best player (when healthy) makes everything you just posted non sequitur.

Nobody in 1996 was saying that Robinson was better than Jordan after the first month of the season when it was clear that Jordan was back to being Jordan.

But keep pushing that agenda and using whatever numbers you'd like to back it up. :oldlol:

[ArbitraryWater]

So looking forward to OP's 1997 and 1998 threads :applause:

Would also like 1988-1990 editions

[mehyaM24]

Nobody in 1996 was saying that Robinson was better than Jordan after the first month of the season when it was clear that Jordan was back to being Jordan.

But keep pushing that agenda and using whatever numbers you'd like to back it up. :oldlol:

lol @ perception. i dont really care. i can pull up quotes for DAYS (the league and players voted robinson along with pippen a top 50 player ALL TIME that season). ~5 months into the year, pippen's peers thought he was the BEST all-around player btw.

http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/1996-02-23/sports/9602230023_1_points-and-pippen-scottie-pippen-bulls-guard-steve

anyway, i have jordan #1 for years 1990, 1991 and 1992. so this isn't a crusade against him. think of these topics more as liberating, highlighting the impact other greats carried. if you want to cling to mere perception, then by all means. i typically use hard data and actual game footage to back up my opinions.

[mehyaM24]

So looking forward to OP's 1997 and 1998 threads :applause:

Would also like 1988-1990 editions
:cheers:

i don't have enough data to make definitive statements for 1988-1989, but i can tell you i have magic as my best player in 1988, arguably in 1989, and jordan as my best player in 1990.

regarding the 1998 season: read my shaq thread (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=364466) i made a couple nights ago. you may enjoy that one.

[juju151111]

lol @ perception. i dont really care. i can pull up quotes for DAYS (the league and players voted robinson along with pippen a top 50 player ALL TIME that season). ~5 months into the year, pippen's peers thought he was the BEST all-around player btw.

http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/1996-02-23/sports/9602230023_1_points-and-pippen-scottie-pippen-bulls-guard-steve

anyway, i have jordan #1 for years 1990, 1991 and 1992. so this isn't a crusade against him. think of these topics more as liberating, highlighting the impact other greats carried. if you want to cling to mere perception, then by all means. i typically use hard data and actual game footage to back up my opinions.
Mj was the best player in 93 too if it's regular season and playoffs. 1996 is the samething. So Mj was the best player in those years too.

[ArbitraryWater]

:cheers:

i don't have enough data to make definitive statements for 1988-1989, but i can tell you i have magic as my best player in 1988, arguably in 1989, and jordan as my best player in 1990.

regarding the 1988 season: read my shaq thread (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=364466) i made a couple nights ago. you may enjoy that one.

Oh right, yeah, that basically is the 1998 one.. I mean, Shaq was the superior player, I'm not taking 35-year old MJ over near peak Shaq, but MJ had the more successful season.

I don't understand how peak MJ (1990) was 3rd in MVP voting, tbh.

[juju151111]

Oh right, yeah, that basically is the 1998 one.. I mean, Shaq was the superior player, I'm not taking 35-year old MJ over near peak Shaq, but MJ had the more successful season.

I don't understand how peak MJ (1990) was 3rd in MVP voting, tbh.
Team record.

[mehyaM24]

Oh right, yeah, that basically is the 1998 one.. I mean, Shaq was the superior player, I'm not taking 35-year old MJ over near peak Shaq, but MJ had the more successful season.

I don't understand how peak MJ (1990) was 3rd in MVP voting, tbh.
- 6th best record in the league
- magic had an insane regular season
- david robinson had an insane regular season
- both david robinson and magic led their teams to better records

of course, jordan was the better player considering what he did for his team when it pertained to the ALL AROUND game. more skills with a similar impact, but went to another level in the playoffs. especially against detroit - the best defense in the game.

i dont have their RAPM for that season - but i'm sure it would be extremely close anyway.

[SexSymbol]

*if anyone hasn't seen my 1993 MVP and best player thread (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=364608), please to so.

the best, most critical and efficient way of valuing a players impact is using the metric, RAPM - another way of measuring who the most valuable is and who has the most impact to their teams and across the league. of course, "real rapm" wasn't measured until ~1997, but this still does a MUCH better job than per (adjusting many different lineups BUT singling out individual impact, NOT team), and as others have said, its better than nothing (beside watching game tape).*

so lets get started.

the 1996 MVP and best player - both IMO had to have been david robinson. not only did robinson have the CLEAR highest RAPM that season, but also the highest player efficiency rating, most double-doubles, was 2nd in rebounds (22 games of 15+ rebounds, 6 games of 18+ rebounds, 2 games of 20+ rebounds), 3rd in points (23 games of 30+ points), and 3rd in blocks (23 games of 5+ blocks, 3 games of 8+ blocks - statistically, as you can see, he was just a notch above the rest.

what REALLY seals his case is the fact, david accomplished this in a tougher western conference (suns, jazz, rockets, lakers, sonics), leading his team to the second best record out there.

in the playoffs you ask? against barkley's suns, david averaged 30/12/4 on 62%TS (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGYuilnrMnY). staggering dominance and efficiency. of course - he caught the injury bug in the second round of the playoffs, and the rest was history. we cannot ignore the work he put in throughout the 82 game season and first round of the playoffs though. doing so would be ignorant.

who do i have behind robinson that season? my top 5 follows:

* david robinson
* shaq
* pippen/jordan
* jordan/pippen
* alonzo mourning

if you want to read up on david robinson's career, and it being undervalued, i suggest this article: http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fancy-stats/wp/2014/09/05/nba-retrometrics-why-david-robinson-is-underrated/

1992 and 1997 will be done shortly with reference points to each thread, along with a final conclusion (will be its own thread) to put everything in full circle.


Bolded are not important at all at finding the best player. Your basketball intellect is critically low.

[SamuraiSWISH]

During that span, from '96 - '98, the only time someone had a case for MVP was in 1997. And that's because of the Jazz's success, and Karl Malone actively campaigned for the award. He was neither better, or more desrving than MJ.

1998 was the season where someone other than Jordan had claim to be the best player. MJ was 35 years old, beginning to rapidly slow down, and Shaq was on the rise.

Arguing anything else is hindsight.

If you were around at the time in the league, you'd know that no one else had a claim as best player, or MVP. Actually Scottie had a claim for MVP shortly during the 1996 season but Jordan's re-stored swagger, skills, and dominance eventually came through to make it obvious.

[3ball]

MJ was 35 years old, beginning to rapidly slow down.


you just made that up out of thin air - specifically, what is your basis for this... if he was slowing down, why did his performance increase so dramatically in the playoffs, and how was he able to carry the Bulls in the Finals with both Pippen (15 ppg, 41% FG) and Rodman (3 ppg, 8.1 rpg) completely MIA?

Jordan set a record in the 1998 Finals by scoring 38% of his team's points..

physically, he had almost twice as many dunks in 1998 (89) than he had in 1997 (49)... so you are misguided here, i think blinded by regular season numbers, which are never NEARLY as important as the postseason.

his 1998 season was similar to 1993, where he conserved energy in the regular season, and then turned it up in the playoffs to have one of the best postseason runs ever - you forget that Jordan KNOWS how to 3-peat, and apparently you do it by conserving energy in the regular season the 3rd go-round.





If you were around at the time in the league, you'd know that no one else had a claim as best player, or MVP. Actually Scottie had a claim for MVP shortly during the 1996 season but Jordan's re-stored swagger, skills, and dominance eventually came through to make it obvious.


at no point was there a sliver of possibility that the bolded above could happen... jordan didn't just restore swagger to the Bulls - he put up a top 10 all-time statistical season... he had a 0.317 WS/48 and 29.4 PER, compared to 0.209 and 21.0 for scottie.

i was in Chicago at the time going to school and played with guys that played with Jordan... i heard a lot of stuff, but never heard anything about scottie having a "claim" for MVP... jordan was back in full force putting up GOAT-level stats.
.

[ArbitraryWater]

Bolded are not important at all at finding the best player. Your basketball intellect is critically low.

this guy talking about basketball intellect when everyone knows you're a joke

[Asukal]

lol @ perception. i dont really care. i can pull up quotes for DAYS (the league and players voted robinson along with pippen a top 50 player ALL TIME that season). ~5 months into the year, pippen's peers thought he was the BEST all-around player btw.

http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/1996-02-23/sports/9602230023_1_points-and-pippen-scottie-pippen-bulls-guard-steve

anyway, i have jordan #1 for years 1990, 1991 and 1992. so this isn't a crusade against him. think of these topics more as liberating, highlighting the impact other greats carried. if you want to cling to mere perception, then by all means. i typically use hard data and actual game footage to back up my opinions.

You are actually doing MJ a great service. All these monsters in the league during his day and he still came up on top. It proves that although other players are just as athletic, just as skilled, and just as dominant as MJ, they don't have his competitive fire. Carry on OP. :applause:

[mehyaM24]

You are actually doing MJ a great service. All these monsters in the league during his day and he still came up on top. It proves that although other players are just as athletic, just as skilled, and just as dominant as MJ, they don't have his competitive fire. Carry on OP. :applause:
makes no difference to me. i'm a basketball fan first. :applause:

ironically enough, i AM proving there were players that impacted the game to a degree jordan didn't and couldn't reach. enjoy my next set of threads. you will learn something. :cheers:

[3ball]

people on this forum rate regular season numbers higher than postseason numbers, when it should be the opposite.

who cares how a player performs on the lower levels of competition (regular season)?... shouldn't it matter more what happens when the player reaches the top level of competition?

and we know MJ's regular season stats were always were elite (often goat), so it's just splitting hairs to compare them to other players, when jordan was easily the best player in the playoffs for each of his championship runs.

and of course we know that MJ always conserves energy in the regular season on the 3rd leg of a three-peat, which allows him to dramatically increase his play for the final playoff run of a 3-peat, as he did in both 1993 and 1998...

Jordan knows how to 3-peat, and apparently conserving energy in the final season of a 3-peat is one of the ways he did it - so it doesn't makes sense to compare his regular season stats to guys who are trying harder for stats because they are hungrier from not having won shit...

of course, MJ's numbers are still better regardless even when he's conserving energy, but considering he's such a superior playoff performer and frequently wins the championship, splitting hairs about the regular season makes no sense.
.

[Asukal]

makes no difference to me. i'm a basketball fan first. :applause:

ironically enough, i AM proving there were players that impacted the game to a degree jordan didn't and couldn't reach. enjoy my next set of threads. you will learn something. :cheers:

You mean statistically? Of course he can't, not exactly fair to compare him to a center whose job is to get rebounds and block shots. You want to talk about impact? Jordan lead his team to the title, how bout the admiral? :confusedshrug:

[3ball]

ironically enough, i AM proving there were players that impacted the game to a degree jordan didn't and couldn't reach.


what stats prove that?

jordan had higher RAPM than Robinson and everyone else in 1996, and he has the highest all-time PER and wins shares.

so specifically, what stats do you have that show players impacting the game better than jordan?

[juju151111]

makes no difference to me. i'm a basketball fan first. :applause:

ironically enough, i AM proving there were players that impacted the game to a degree jordan didn't and couldn't reach. enjoy my next set of threads. you will learn something. :cheers:
:roll: Complete and other nonsense

[ArbitraryWater]

:roll: Complete and other nonsense


http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110617153607/friends/images/6/69/Say_what.gif

[mehyaM24]

what stats prove that?

jordan had higher RAPM than Robinson and everyone else in 1996, and he has the highest all-time PER and wins shares.

refer to my OP, and remainder of the first page.

not sure why you are including jordan's "all-time high per", as this isn't a "peak" thread. stats show david robinson had a higher per and defensive rating than jordan in 1996.

please read more carefully.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

makes no difference to me. i'm a basketball fan first. :applause:

ironically enough, i AM proving there were players that impacted the game to a degree jordan didn't and couldn't reach. enjoy my next set of threads. you will learn something. :cheers:

Not a huge proponent on 'RAPM', but I'll readily admit its less flawed (and probably better) than PER, something that I often use to compare players of the same position. Also, I get what you're doing, but don't ya think you're laying it on a bit thick? Its nice that these guys are getting recognition, but c'mon. :oldlol:

[Smoke117]

If nothing else...it was a complete joke when Payton was given the DPOY over Robinson. It obviously DID NOT go to the guy who deserved it that year. Scottie was 2nd in votes too...neither him nor Gary had any business receiving the DPOY over Robinson. He was far and away the most dominant defensive player that season. If we are just going by regular season...you could definitely give Robinson a case for MVP and best player in the league. He was by far the best and most impactful defensive player in the league while giving you a dominant 25ppg.

[juju151111]

Not a huge proponent on 'RAPM', but I'll readily admit its less flawed (and probably better) than PER, something that I often use to compare players of the same position. Also, I get what you're doing, but don't ya think you're laying it on a bit thick? Its nice that these guys are getting recognition, but c'mon. :oldlol:
What the flawed in RAPM?

[tmacattack33]

Wasn't 1996 the year that Shaq was injured for the first quarter of the year and Penny lead Orlando to a 20-5 start or so?

If so, get shaq out of that top five and put Penny in. Or get Zo out of there and put Penny in.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Wasn't 1996 the year that Shaq was injured for the first quarter of the year and Penny lead Orlando to a 20-5 start or so?

If so, get shaq out of that top five and put Penny in. Or get Zo out of there and put Penny in.

Yes this is the year Shaq became a little bitch and got all butt hurt over the attnetion Penny was getting

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

What the flawed in RAPM?
It's not so much flawed, as it is people using it irresponsibly. Educated stat users will use RAPM as a nice way to figure out which player is more valuable on your team, and in some cases different teams. How "valuable" a player is to their team's success isn't the same thing as saying they're the best player in the game. According to the stat, for example, Mike Miller was valuable to the Heat, like REALLY valuable, but dude was probably at best their 5th or 6th best player. Along with comparing players with similar roles, RAPM does a good job normalizing a players impact - and only that. It's good in moderation, but posters I feel get a little carried away with it. I know I'll always be alright w/ raw numbers and simply watching the games :confusedshrug:

[Shep]

The answer is Jordan, and Jordan

[juju151111]

It's not so much flawed, as it is people using it irresponsibly. Educated stat users will use RAPM as a nice way to figure out which player is more valuable on your team, and in some cases different teams. How "valuable" a player is to their team's success isn't the same thing as saying they're the best player in the game. According to the stat, for example, Mike Miller was valuable to the Heat, like REALLY valuable, but dude was probably at best their 5th or 6th best player. Along with comparing players with similar roles, RAPM does a good job normalizing a players impact - and only that. It's good in moderation, but posters I feel get a little carried away with it. I know I'll always be alright w/ raw numbers and simply watching the games :confusedshrug:
Agreed with every statistic you need to use context.

[3ball]

It's not so much flawed, as it is people using it irresponsibly. Educated stat users will use RAPM as a nice way to figure out which player is more valuable on your team, and in some cases different teams. How "valuable" a player is to their team's success isn't the same thing as saying they're the best player in the game. According to the stat, for example, Mike Miller was valuable to the Heat, like REALLY valuable, but dude was probably at best their 5th or 6th best player. Along with comparing players with similar roles, RAPM does a good job normalizing a players impact - and only that. It's good in moderation, but posters I feel get a little carried away with it. I know I'll always be alright w/ raw numbers and simply watching the games :confusedshrug:
i think i agree with your post 100%.

question... what type of player would you say is more important: a guy that takes a 2nd round team to a three-peat, and then another one... or, a guy that takes a bunch of D-leaguers to the conference finals?

[BIZARRO]

Let me end this thread and any of these other year by year threads from this period.

Other than the 2 seasons he took off, from 1986-87 to 1997-98, it's Jordan.

Ain't one player you would have traded him for, ain't another player you would have wanted on your team over him.

And if you watched this period, it is pretty obvious.

[julizaver]

Let me end this thread and any of these other year by year threads from this period.

Other than the 2 seasons he took off, from 1986-87 to 1997-98, it's Jordan.

Ain't one player you would have traded him for, ain't another player you would have wanted on your team over him.

And if you watched this period, it is pretty obvious.

When so much of us had watched him play during his Bulls days there is simply no need to use advanced metrics and other stats. Not to mention that all of his games are recorded and he won everything. Jordan was all above his competition in every possible way. He dominated his peers and they aknowledged it - no what ifs, no need to compare rosters. Just go watch the video and made the eye test.

[Da_Realist]

When a team wins a record setting 72 games, the best player of that team will get more than a passing interest in MVP consideration. When that player is the world's most famous athlete ever, even more-so. Especially when, after retiring on top of his game, he retired for practically 2 seasons, came back, redefined his game and then averaged numbers on par with what he averaged the season before he left, that guy will win the MVP.

I wonder how many think they made a mistake voting for Michael Jordan that year. :rolleyes:

[Pointguard]

It's not so much flawed, as it is people using it irresponsibly. Educated stat users will use RAPM as a nice way to figure out which player is more valuable on your team, and in some cases different teams. How "valuable" a player is to their team's success isn't the same thing as saying they're the best player in the game. According to the stat, for example, Mike Miller was valuable to the Heat, like REALLY valuable, but dude was probably at best their 5th or 6th best player. Along with comparing players with similar roles, RAPM does a good job normalizing a players impact - and only that. It's good in moderation, but posters I feel get a little carried away with it. I know I'll always be alright w/ raw numbers and simply watching the games :confusedshrug:

Well said!

Mike Miller was more like the 9th best player on the team. He wasn't even second best off of the bench except on very rare occasions. RAPM which is usually a matter of how the team functions, but Miller wasn't even very good in his role like Allen, Cole and Birdman were.

[Pointguard]

I don't care who was playing, it was rare to see MJ outplayed by anybody on the court. He was thoroughly the best when he played after '90. For people who remember '96 Robinson wasn't in the same breath as MJ. Robinson really beat up on bottom feeders. In the nationally televised games Robinson frequently got hit hard literally by Malone, Barkley, Shaq, Rodman and Ewing while Hakeem usually got the best of him. And people were frustrated that this military guy wouldn't stand his ground. He had his big games against them once in a while but rarely on national television which is when we got to see him.

Jordan was the exact opposite. He feasted on guys getting MVP votes and while Shaq was more dominant, Jordan was better and rarely let you think that Shaq was competition. Robinson was a great athlete, a taller faster version of peak Dwight Howard, and was active as can be. He didn't have a go to move, wasn't firm in the post, and I never seen the Tiger in him. With that said if he had somebody like Magic, that could run with him and demand he post harder, he could have been a top ten GOAT. Still was special and a great player. But Jordan was the best.

[Spurs5Rings2014]

Completely agree, OP.

:applause:

[fpliii]

MJ. Hakeem fell off defensively (though this is another season when he faced gang defenses against Seattle in the elimination series), and Shaq missed too many games. I don't know about Robinson, I was too sour on him from the playoffs the season before, even though the domination in the Houston series was perhaps overstated.

I actually felt MJ was better in 97 than in the 72 win season, since he dropped some weight and looked more fluid. I think it was the tendinitis in his knees? They started out fast out of the gate that year too I believe.

[Roundball_Rock]

at no point was there a sliver of possibility that the bolded above could happen... jordan didn't just restore swagger to the Bulls - he put up a top 10 all-time statistical season... he had a 0.317 WS/48 and 29.4 PER, compared to 0.209 and 21.0 for scottie.

i was in Chicago at the time going to school and played with guys that played with Jordan... i heard a lot of stuff, but never heard anything about scottie having a "claim" for MVP... jordan was back in full force putting up GOAT-level stats.

Of course there was. MJ himself was leading that bandwagon. There is an ESPN interview from 96' on YouTube where Roy Firestone asks Pippen about people touting him as MVP. Then Bob Ryan in the post-interview discussion calls Pippen as good as Jordan, minus the aura of MJ. Again, this is on YouTube. Look it up for yourself. It should be under "Pippen interview" or "Pippen Sunday conversation." You can't look just at stats. MJ was scoring 8-9 more points than Pippen but Pippen was outproducing MJ in every other category while providing superior defense (arguable DPOY). So statistically it was not as cut and dry as you make it out to be.

Samurai is right, though, Pippen's MVP campaign lost steam after about 1/3 of the season and it was clear MJ was the MVP. It did not last, but there was a chunk of the 96' season where Pippen was essentially Jordan's equal (similar to how Westbrook currently is more or less equal to Durant in terms of play, even though in the long run we know Durant is the superior player). Pippen should have finished higher than 5th in MVP voting, though. MJ and Pippen were 1-2 in all-NBA voting and Pippen was #1 in all-Defensive voting that year (MJ also made the 1st team).

MJ was clearly the best player on the planet and the MVP in 96'. That was one of those years where one player was the clear MVP.