So when is the Miami Heat and it's '2 superstars' gonna make .500?

[SavageMode]

I thought Lebron was holding back Alpha D-Wade and Alpha CB-1?

Meanwhile Lebron is carrying a bunch of scrubs once again to the playoffs, Lecoasting at the moment, and letting the Cavs up their game while he is rehabbing. True leader.

I thought Lebron ball made Bosh into a 3 pt jump shooter?

Once again, Kobe stan logic debunked.

LeGod Prevails.

[Collie]

Lebron ball is so encompassing that his former teammates become worse permanently.

[juju151111]

Deadening is not a superstar anymore.

[Straight_Ballin]

Lebron ball is so encompassing that his former teammates become worse permanently.

That ether is strong.

Is this a pic of the OP?

http://i.imgur.com/omyFUPl.jpg

[JT123]

Kobe stans promised me the Heat would win at least 54 games. They are quiet now though. :confusedshrug:

[Poetry]

LeGod Prevails.

Cavs are barely above .500 with three star players :no:

[Magic 32]

Kobe stans promised me the Heat would win at least 54 games. They are quiet now though. :confusedshrug:

Wade is playing hurt.

Lebron is resting his p*ssy in creeamy bubble baths.

Those texans can be rough sometimes.

[Fudge]

So LeBron went 2/4 in the Finals with TWO superstars? Yikes. :eek:

[T_L_P]

They play in the dominant East.

Their record is actually elite.

[CavaliersFTW]

Lebron ball is so encompassing that his former teammates become worse permanently.
Damn OP got ethered :oldlol:

[CavaliersFTW]

http://giant.gfycat.com/SpectacularColorfulEmperorshrimp.gif

[SamuraiSWISH]

Cavs are barely above .500 with three star players :no:
Exactly ... nice attempt by fagatron OP distracting from what LeBron is doing, and not what his over the hill, past their prime former teammates are doing without him. With Wade, Bosh, and Ray-Ray in the Finals he still went 2 fo fo

[Pushxx]

Lol Miami and Cleveland are separated by only 4 games and the Cavs are more stacked and less injured.

What are you babbling about?

[Done_And_Done]

Why does the OP speak as if the Cavs are scorching apart the league when they're flirting with a .500 record in the Eastern conference. Go to sleep...

[Bandito]

When the Heat stop being hurt while Lebronze team continues winning without him as he gets a vacation. Man...how stacked can the Cavs be....

[LongLiveTheKing]

Why does the OP speak as if the Cavs are scorching apart the league when they're flirting with a .500 record in the Eastern conference. Go to sleep...
This Heat have been injured and even beat the Cavs. :roll:

[sportjames23]

OP gettin wrekt :oldlol:

[Nuff Said]

People act as if Miami completely fell off without lebron while lebron is still leading his team to second in east and another finals appearance. Nope, both parties are doing considerably worse without each other. They had championship chemistry which is hard to find.

[Kblaze8855]

The Heat are on pace for like 33 wins. I think any of us being honest would have to admit thats at least....unexpected.

I predicted 50+ and was more than a little dismissive of people saying they would have some great dropoff.

They seem more likely to be a mid 30s winner than the Cavs are to win the 43-44 they are on pace for.

The Cavs seem like a team likely to have a run. The Heat? I dont know....

[SexSymbol]

The Heat are on pace for like 33 wins. I think any of us being honest would have to admit thats at least....unexpected.

I predicted 50+ and was more than a little dismissive of people saying they would have some great dropoff.

They seem more likely to be a mid 30s winner than the Cavs are to win the 43-44 they are on pace for.

The Cavs seem like a team likely to have a run. The Heat? I dont know....
Most of us always mentioned "if they stay healthy" when referring to the heat's predictions. And they haven't stayed healthy at all

[JebronLames]

People act as if Miami completely fell off without lebron while lebron is still leading his team to second in east and another finals appearance. Nope, both parties are doing considerably worse without each other. They had championship chemistry which is hard to find.
:facepalm

[UK2K]

I thought Lebron was holding back Alpha D-Wade and Alpha CB-1?

Meanwhile Lebron is carrying a bunch of scrubs once again to the playoffs, Lecoasting at the moment, and letting the Cavs up their game while he is rehabbing. True leader.

I thought Lebron ball made Bosh into a 3 pt jump shooter?

Once again, Kobe stan logic debunked.

LeGod Prevails.
The Cavs are loaded with scrubs? News to me.

[Nash]

you'd think the 'most stacked team in history' - Lebron + Granger+ Deng should be better.

[Hoopz2332]

Exactly ... nice attempt by fagatron OP distracting from what LeBron is doing, and not what his over the hill, past their prime former teammates are doing without him. With Wade, Bosh, and Ray-Ray in the Finals he still went 2 fo fo


Cavs are like 6 games above .500 with lebron playing w/the other 2 "stars" being career losers. Heat were suppose to be a title team even without lebron according to some because Bosh and Wade are winners:confusedshrug:

[Droid101]

OP ruined as usual. Stay losing.

[riseagainst]

Lebron ball is so encompassing that his former teammates become worse permanently.

this.
/thread
/rekt
/ether
/thread

[protox]

You all are funny. Common denominator in all this is LeBron. Cavs aren't blowing away because they've been without LeBron. What's the Cavs record with Lebron and without? Just shows how much impact LeBron has and that's the bottom line.

[JT123]

Lol Miami and Cleveland are separated by only 4 games and the Cavs are more stacked and less injured.

What are you babbling about?
What a stupid post. :facepalm
The only Miami player injured right now is McRoberts, who is a career journeyman. The Heat are only 10-15 when Wade and Bosh both play, so the team has looked like shit regardless of who is in the lineup.
The Cavs have been missing Lebron, Andy, and even Kyrie has been banged up.

[They Won]

I thought Lebron was holding back Alpha D-Wade and Alpha CB-1?

Meanwhile Lebron is carrying a bunch of scrubs once again to the playoffs, Lecoasting at the moment, and letting the Cavs up their game while he is rehabbing. True leader.

I thought Lebron ball made Bosh into a 3 pt jump shooter?

Once again, Kobe stan logic debunked.

LeGod Prevails.

Wade and Bosh lost their superstar status sometime between the 2012-13 and 2013-14 season. This is why LeBron left.

[They Won]

What a stupid post. :facepalm
The only Miami player injured right now is McRoberts, who is a career journeyman. The Heat are only 10-15 when Wade and Bosh both play, so the team has looked like shit regardless of who is in the lineup.
The Cavs have been missing Lebron, Andy, and even Kyrie has been banged up.

Only recently. The Heat have had so many different starting line-ups this year.

[SouBeachTalents]

Wade and Bosh lost their superstar status sometime between the 2012-13 and 2013-14 season. This is why LeBron left.

Wade stopped playing like a superstar after their 27 game win streak, while Bosh never was a superstar

[keep-itreal]

Remember all the Chris Bosh MVP threads at the beginning of the season? :roll: :roll:

[They Won]

Wade stopped playing like a superstar after their 27 game win streak, while Bosh never was a superstar

Yeah, I misspoke on Bosh. He was a perennial all-star while Wade was a superstar. Bosh is still an all-star, but a lot has changed since he joined the Heat in 2010.

[GimmeThat]

Ignition failure.

[navy]

Remember all the Chris Bosh MVP threads at the beginning of the season? :roll: :roll:
:lol

[L.Kizzle]

Have Bosh and Wade even played ten games together this season?

[navy]

Wade stopped playing like a superstar after their 27 game win streak, while Bosh never was a superstar
Worse part is that Wade and Bosh have looked decent this year. Spo needs to do better. Also Chalmers and Cole are terrible.

[Droid101]

Remember all the Chris Bosh MVP threads at the beginning of the season? :roll: :roll:
Yeah, and then he got injured.

[JT123]

Have Bosh and Wade even played ten games together this season?
25 actually, and they are 10-15 in those games. :lol
#cantdoitwithoutbron

[Mr. Jabbar]

they had some bad luck with injuries, but they're a way better team than the cavs, as proven when they ass whooped cavs prior to bran pulling his mini-quit

[Kblaze8855]

Most of us always mentioned "if they stay healthy" when referring to the heat's predictions. And they haven't stayed healthy at all


The Heats injury issues are pretty normal. They have an injured role player...and their three best players missed a combined 14 games I think.

Glance around the league....that isnt unusual.

The team just isnt as good as people assumed it would be. Myself being one of those people.

[Wade's Rings]

The Heats injury issues are pretty normal. They have an injured role player...and their three best players missed a combined 14 games I think.

Glance around the league....that isnt unusual.

The team just isnt as good as people assumed it would be. Myself being one of those people.

Spo's Coaching has been the biggest problem for me. Look at last night when he didn't play Whiteside at all in the 3rd and Miami only grabbed 3 boards as a team. Whiteside was giving us great energy and he should be starting but Spo's Incompetence and sub par Coaching is being exposed this year.

[dannysc305]

Wade's the 6th leading scorer in the league and his resume is STACKED. Put on a hell of a display in front of a national audience on Christmas. Absolutely NO DOUBT he is still a superstar so yall can put that to rest. Bosh needs to step it up a little but outside of that the rest of the roster is disappointing Cole and Chalmers show up once in a while but are TRASH on most nights opposing point guards TORCH us... I could have swore Cole was a defensive ace with his cat like quickness but he still gets done up... Guess cause he's undersized. Just like the front line. Whiteside's role needs to be expanded because it is the defense that is killing the Heat.

[Micku]

I honestly thought that they would be better than this. Their defense really suck this year. I thought Spo would make the Heat at least make the defense to be above average. They are not as good as I thought they were going to be.

[sd3035]

Lebron ball is so encompassing that his former teammates become worse permanently.


destroyed

[Wade's Rings]

I honestly thought that they would be better than this. Their defense really suck this year. I thought Spo would make the Heat at least make the defense to be above average. They are not as good as I thought they were going to be.

He's the whole reason why they have sucked so far this year.

[JebronLames]

Yeah, I misspoke on Bosh. He was a perennial all-star while Wade was a superstar. Bosh is still an all-star, but a lot has changed since he joined the Heat in 2010.
In the playoffs:

2011: Wade- superstar, bosh- all star
2012: Wade- all star, bosh- not all star
2013: both not all stars
2014: Wade- not all star, bosh- all star

Above is an unbiased opinion.

[JebronLames]

He's the whole reason why they have sucked so far this year.
Almost cost them the championship by putting Wade back in during game 6 2013. Still the only coach to win a ring with a severely flawed team.

[SouBeachTalents]

In the playoffs:

2011: Wade- superstar, bosh- all star
2012: Wade- all star, bosh- not all star
2013: both not all stars
2014: Wade- not all star, bosh- all star

Above is an unbiased opinion.

I agree with everything but Bosh being an all-star in 2014. A 15 & 6 average is nice, but all star? I wouldn't say that

[FLDFSU]

you'd think the 'most stacked team in history' - Lebron + Granger+ Deng should be better.

:applause: :applause:

I don't care WHAT the Cavs record is. They are NOT supposed to be good. They won 33 games last year and anybody with any sense understood they would not be competing for a ring this year.

The Heat on the other hand, "is the most stacked team in NBA history" and plays in the "weakest conference of all time." Wade and Bosh are two superstars that no longer have to play "Lebron ball" so therefore they should be even better.

Instead we are fighting for the 8th seed despite the fact, that this Heat team/Coaching is pretty much the same.

[Roundball_Rock]

Cavs are barely above .500 with three star players :no:

With LeBron: 18-11
Without LeBron: 1-7


So LeBron went 2/4 in the Finals with TWO superstars?

With LeBron: 54 wins and the Finals.
Without LeBron: 0.400 basketball and possibly missing the playoffs in the East.


The Heat on the other hand, "is the most stacked team in NBA history" and plays in the "weakest conference of all time." Wade and Bosh are two superstars that no longer have to play "Lebron ball" so therefore they should be even better.

Exactly. How does a team lose one player and go from the "most stacked team of all-time" and the best team in its conference for four consecutive years to .400 and clinging to 8th place? Miami is the only team in the East with 2 "superstars" and this is the result post-LeBron?


The Heats injury issues are pretty normal. They have an injured role player...and their three best players missed a combined 14 games I think.

Glance around the league....that isnt unusual.

The team just isnt as good as people assumed it would be. Myself being one of those people.

Exactly. The Heat are not having unusually severe injury issues.

The bottom line is LeBron's impact on his teams rivals that of any all-time great (and dwarfs that of Kobe, Wade and Durant, which infuriates fans of those players). We had a preview of this from 2011-2014. Just look at Miami's record in the games LeBron missed during that period. (In contrast, when Wade did not play Miami did not skip a beat) We are again seeing evidence of this with the collapse of the Cleveland Cavaliers to being among the worst teams in the league without LeBron, even when both Love and Irving play.

[305Baller]

None of these arguments can explain 2/5.

[Roundball_Rock]

None of these arguments can explain 2/5.

1) How many players would have even reached the Finals with the 07' Cavs (scrubs) or 14' Heat (a .400 team without LeBron)?

2) How many would have won?

That explains "2/5", a bizarre argument which penalizes LeBron for taking his teams much further than they should have went.

Which is better?

Driver A: finishes 2nd with a 20th place car.
Driver B: finishes 4th with a 7th place car.

In "2/5" land, Driver B>Drive A. That is laughably absurd in any context outside of LeBron hatred.

Prime Kobe and Wade missed games and their team performance remained consistently similar (even though those same teams consistently fell to mediocrity whenever Shaq or LeBron were out). Durant's team folded without Westbrook in the 13' playoffs and was blown out by embarrassing margins in the 14' WCF when Ibaka was out. He was backdoor swept by LeBron's team despite having Westbrook, Harden and Ibaka--three MVP caliber players (Durant, Westbrook, Harden) on the same team and four all-star caliber players! Yet LeBron gets to the Finals with scrubs one year and with a 0.400 team another year and that is held against him, as if it is preferable to have less of an ability to elevate your team. :rolleyes:

2/5? How about Chris Paul never even getting past the second round despite being on arguably the most talented team in the league in LA. How about Durant being 0/1 in 7 seasons? How about Carmelo being 0/0 and usually not even getting past the first round? How about Wade being around 0.500 perennially in those seasons he did not have Shaq or LeBron? How about Kobe 's team finishing 7th despite having Howard, Nash and Gasol?

LeBron James has his team on no worse than a 50 win pace every year that he has played since 2006 (including the 08' Cavs which went 0-7 without him and the 15' Cavs which are 1-7 without him). He has made the Finals 5 times in the past 8 seasons, winning the championship twice. This is the best resume of any elite player yet all we hear is "2/5"? :wtf:

[Mr.Kite]

1) How many players would have even reached the Finals with the 07' Cavs (scrubs) or 14' Heat (a .400 team without LeBron)?

2) How many would have won?

That explains "2/5", a bizarre argument which penalizes LeBron for taking his teams much further than they should have went.

Which is better?

Driver A: finishes 2nd with a 20th place car.
Driver B: finishes 4th with a 7th place car.

In "2/5" land, Driver B>Drive A. That is laughably absurd in any context outside of LeBron hatred.

Prime Kobe and Wade missed games and their team performance remained consistently similar (even though those same teams consistently fell to mediocrity whenever Shaq or LeBron were out). Durant's team folded without Westbrook in the 13' playoffs and was blown out by embarrassing margins in the 14' WCF when Ibaka was out. He was backdoor swept by LeBron's team despite having Westbrook, Harden and Ibaka--three MVP caliber players (Durant, Westbrook, Harden) on the same team and four all-star caliber players! Yet LeBron gets to the Finals with scrubs one year and with a 0.400 team another year and that is held against him, as if it is preferable to have less of an ability to elevate your team. :rolleyes:

2/5? How about Chris Paul never even getting past the second round despite being on arguably the most talented team in the league in LA. How about Durant being 0/1 in 7 seasons? How about Carmelo being 0/0 and usually not even getting past the first round? How about Wade being around 0.500 perennially in those seasons he did not have Shaq or LeBron? How about Kobe 's team finishing 7th despite having Howard, Nash and Gasol?

LeBron James has his team on no worse than a 50 win pace every year that he has played since 2006 (including the 08' Cavs which went 0-7 without him and the 15' Cavs which are 1-7 without him). He has made the Finals 5 times in the past 8 seasons, winning the championship twice. This is the best resume of any elite player yet all we hear is "2/5"? :wtf:


2/5

[97 bulls]

With LeBron: 18-11
Without LeBron: 1-7



With LeBron: 54 wins and the Finals.
Without LeBron: 0.400 basketball and possibly missing the playoffs in the East.



Exactly. How does a team lose one player and go from the "most stacked team of all-time" and the best team in its conference for four consecutive years to .400 and clinging to 8th place? Miami is the only team in the East with 2 "superstars" and this is the result post-LeBron?



Exactly. The Heat are not having unusually severe injury issues.

The bottom line is LeBron's impact on his teams rivals that of any all-time great (and dwarfs that of Kobe, Wade and Durant, which infuriates fans of those players). We had a preview of this from 2011-2014. Just look at Miami's record in the games LeBron missed during that period. (In contrast, when Wade did not play Miami did not skip a beat) We are again seeing evidence of this with the collapse of the Cleveland Cavaliers to being among the worst teams in the league without LeBron, even when both Love and Irving play.
And let's not forget, the Heat replaced James with Deng and added Danny Granger.

[Marchesk]

This is the best resume of any elite player yet all we hear is "2/5"? :wtf:

You mean any of any elite player today, right?

[edrick]

The 2/5 argument is silly. At least he got to the Finals unlike many players that are also trying to win a title every year.

[nba_55]

The 2/5 argument is silly. At least he got to the Finals unlike many players that are also trying to win a title every year.

Everyone knows it's silly, they are just trolling, they got nothin better to do. If they actually believe that it's a good argument, then they are retarded, it's simple!

[fpliii]

I'm pretty surprised. Had Miami winning 45 or 46 games.

Injuries explain some of it, but Wade missed a bunch of games during the Big 3 Era as well. Wade & Bosh have been out for:

2011 6/82 & 5/82
2012 17/66 & 9/66 (+9 playoff games)
2013 13/82 (+1 playoff game) & 8/82
2014 28/82 & 3/82
2015 14/36 & 8/36 (so far)

I think a big part of it is Spo not adjusting his rotations and giving some of the young talent a chance to shine. With the guys who have left, he really can't play his brand of positionless basketball (especially on the defensive end) unless they make some additions.

[20Four]

25 actually, and they are 10-15 in those games. :lol
#cantdoitwithoutbron
Stop posting here, you keep burning your McDonald's patties, shit

[Roundball_Rock]

You mean any of any elite player today, right?

Yes, certainly any elite player of the 2007-2014 period and one can expand it broadly to encompass players who were elite at some point during LeBron's career, even though their primes were completely or partly prior to 2007-2014. T Mac did not get past the first round until he was a role player late in his career. Kobe has 5 rings but those came with elite teams. When Kobe played with scrubs the results were first round exists. Duncan has operated in a system that has consistently producing competitive teams. Dirk has been on 50+ win teams for over a decade--and the result is 1/2. Nash was on contenders for years but never reached the Finals.

I consider Carmelo, Wade, Durant, Howard, Paul, and Westbrook as LeBron's contemporaries. These players had all of their primes or a significant chunk of it overlap with LeBron's. Two of them are on the same team and one of them had his greatest team success alongside LeBron.

2/5 is only a potentially valid point when comparing Lebron to GOAT-caliber players. It is fair to use it since LeBron is in that class and has to be judged by a higher standard than what we use for a Chris Paul, Dwight Howard or even a Kevin Durant. Still, the people who go around screaming "2/5" are not those who are saying it to argue that MJ>LeBron or that KAJ>LeBron. They are doing it to argue LeBron is somehow a failure, not that he is on track for being top 5 all-time at a minimum.

2/5 also needs to be judged in context. The 07' Cavs without LeBron would be a joke, as their 0-7 mark without him in 2008 suggests. The 2014 Heat are a 0.400 team without him. How can losing with such teams be compared at face value with being in the Finals with the Showtime Lakers or the 90's Bulls (who nearly won the #1 seed without MJ despite replacing him with a D-Leaguer)?


And let's not forget, the Heat replaced James with Deng and added Danny Granger.

Good point. So LeBron was replaced by a good player and the team retained its 2 superstars. The difference between the 15' Heat and the 14' Heat indicates how much better LeBron is than a good player like Deng.

Now replace Durant, prime Kobe, prime Wade, Harden, Westbrook, Paul, et al. with a Deng-caliber player at their position. Does their team go from 54 wins and the Finals to 8th place and 0.400?


Injuries explain some of it, but Wade missed a bunch of games during the Big 3 Era as well.

On paper the Heat should have been competitive but history is clear: every time, except one, a team loses a GOAT-caliber player they cease to be contenders. Such teams consistently fall to mediocrity, with one outlier, and the Heat are a continuation of a trend that has been evident since Russell retired.

[305Baller]

1) How many players would have even reached the Finals with the 07' Cavs (scrubs) or 14' Heat (a .400 team without LeBron)?

2) How many would have won?

That explains "2/5", a bizarre argument which penalizes LeBron for taking his teams much further than they should have went.

Which is better?

Driver A: finishes 2nd with a 20th place car.
Driver B: finishes 4th with a 7th place car.

In "2/5" land, Driver B>Drive A. That is laughably absurd in any context outside of LeBron hatred.

Prime Kobe and Wade missed games and their team performance remained consistently similar (even though those same teams consistently fell to mediocrity whenever Shaq or LeBron were out). Durant's team folded without Westbrook in the 13' playoffs and was blown out by embarrassing margins in the 14' WCF when Ibaka was out. He was backdoor swept by LeBron's team despite having Westbrook, Harden and Ibaka--three MVP caliber players (Durant, Westbrook, Harden) on the same team and four all-star caliber players! Yet LeBron gets to the Finals with scrubs one year and with a 0.400 team another year and that is held against him, as if it is preferable to have less of an ability to elevate your team. :rolleyes:

2/5? How about Chris Paul never even getting past the second round despite being on arguably the most talented team in the league in LA. How about Durant being 0/1 in 7 seasons? How about Carmelo being 0/0 and usually not even getting past the first round? How about Wade being around 0.500 perennially in those seasons he did not have Shaq or LeBron? How about Kobe 's team finishing 7th despite having Howard, Nash and Gasol?

LeBron James has his team on no worse than a 50 win pace every year that he has played since 2006 (including the 08' Cavs which went 0-7 without him and the 15' Cavs which are 1-7 without him). He has made the Finals 5 times in the past 8 seasons, winning the championship twice. This is the best resume of any elite player yet all we hear is "2/5"? :wtf:

I think LeBron stans like yourself have the answer to LeBron's misfortunes. There seems to always be this chasm of LeBron "carrying someone" and LeBron vs Scrubs. You see, it's a team sport. Jordan had a way of having his team not cater to his game they developed a chemistry without needing Jordan even though they were largely considered scrubs.. The 2 years of Pippen-ball proved it because Jordan was a pure scorer. He was an independent entity. LeBron becomes the nucleus with his passing so really he needs someone like Jordan to take over when the team is struggling. It's weird and 2/5 is more telling of LeBron's game than you would first think. This is why LeBron needed Wade. Without Wade and Ray Allen we would be looking at 1/5, maybe 0/5.

[tpols]

Lebron ball is so encompassing that his former teammates become worse permanently.
:oldlol:

[JT123]

I think LeBron stans like yourself have the answer to LeBron's misfortunes. There seems to always be this chasm of LeBron "carrying someone" and LeBron vs Scrubs. You see, it's a team sport. Jordan had a way of having his team not cater to his game they developed a chemistry without needing Jordan even though they were largely considered scrubs.. The 2 years of Pippen-ball proved it because Jordan was a pure scorer. He was an independent entity. LeBron becomes the nucleus with his passing so really he needs someone like Jordan to take over when the team is struggling. It's weird and 2/5 is more telling of LeBron's game than you would first think. This is why LeBron needed Wade. Without Wade and Ray Allen we would be looking at 1/5, maybe 0/5.
Without Bron Wade probably never gets past the first round after 2006. :sleeping
At the end of the day Lebron is the main one responsible for the best 4 year stretch your franchise has ever experienced, and likely ever will experience.

[Le Shaqtus]

25 actually, and they are 10-15 in those games. :lol
#cantdoitwithoutbron

Well Wade already did it once without LeBron.

LeBron has yet to do it without Wade.

[305Baller]

Without Bron Wade probably never gets past the first round after 2006. :sleeping
At the end of the day Lebron is the main one responsible for the best 4 year stretch your franchise has ever experienced, and likely ever will experience.

No shit sherlock.

Allthough Wade would have gotten to the East finals with Bosh in 2011 maybe 2012.

[Roundball_Rock]

Jordan had a way of having his team not cater to his game they developed a chemistry without needing Jordan even though they were largely considered scrubs.. The 2 years of Pippen-ball proved it because Jordan was a pure scorer.

There was no "Pippen-ball." It was called the "triangle offense" and it not coincidentally was most purely executed in 94' without MJ. Jordan has the highest "usage" rate in NBA history and led the league in FGA perennially. Even at age 38 he was #2 in FGA per game.

Jordan had the team constructed around him just as much as LeBron. You always build around your best player.

Your argument, essentially, is that LeBron's teams underachieve because of his dominance and they get exposed in the Finals. If that is the case, though, why have his Cleveland teams, including the 15' Cavs, always been jokes without him? Why is Miami a 0.400, 8th place team without LeBron there to hold them back?


Without Bron Wade probably never gets past the first round after 2006.

Exactly. :lol


Well Wade already did it once without LeBron.

LeBron has yet to do it without Wade.

Wade won with Shaq. Check out Miami's record when Shaq did not play in 2006 and 2007...(they did fine with Shaq, without Wade--just as they did fine with LeBron, without Wade.)

Wade's entire career minus Shaq and LeBron, including both when LeBron and Shaq were on the team but hurt and the seasons where neither were on the roster, consists of 0.500 or so basketball. In contrast, LeBron was getting to the Finals with scrubs and leading 60+ win teams in Cleveland before Wade. This year LeBron has a 1-7 team without him above 0.600 with him.


Allthough Wade would have gotten to the East finals with Bosh in 2011 maybe 2012.

They would not have beaten Boston in the ECSF (they would likely have been the #2 vs. #3 seed match up) or Chicago (if Miami was the #4 seed). Remember, the Heat WITH LeBron only beat Boston the following year by the narrowest of margins.

[JT123]

No shit sherlock.

Allthough Wade would have gotten to the East finals with Bosh in 2011 maybe 2012.
Then why do you seem so intent on diminishing him as a player? :wtf: Show some appreciation for the best player in your franchises history.
As for Wade and Bosh making the East Finals by themselves, I doubt it. Bosh was got hurt in round 2 in 2012, remember? And I don't see them standing a chance against Boston in 2011 either, as Bosh isn't a good enough playoff performer to replicate Bron's production in that series.

[PJR]

Wade won with Shaq.

LeBron played with Shaq too. How'd that work out?

[ArbitraryWater]

LeBron played with Shaq too. How'd that work out?

:facepalm

You guys are the real stans here.. the ones who can't apply objectivity and logic.

[PJR]

:facepalm

You guys are the real stans here.. the ones who can't apply objectivity and logic.

Now I'm purposely presenting an argument without context. Just like many of the fools in this thread. That seems to be the trend here.

[ArbitraryWater]

None of these arguments can explain 2/5.

Whats hard to understand?

LeBron made the finals 5 times, won twice... 2 of those 3 losses simply came at being on the worse team, we all know he choked in the other... lame.

[JT123]

Wade's entire career minus Shaq and LeBron, including both when LeBron and Shaq were on the team but hurt and the seasons where neither were on the roster, consists of 0.500 or so basketball. In contrast, LeBron was getting to the Finals with scrubs and leading 60+ win teams in Cleveland before Wade. This year LeBron has a 1-7 team without him above 0.600 with him.
This is an excellent point. Wade this year has been much better and healthier than even his biggest stans could have expected him to be, yet his improved stats and health aren't resulting in wins. :confusedshrug:
Wade is a great individual player, but without another top 10 player on his team he's never been much of a winner.

[305Baller]

Then why do you seem so intent on diminishing him as a player? :wtf: Show some appreciation for the best player in your franchises history.
As for Wade and Bosh making the East Finals by themselves, I doubt it. Bosh was got hurt in round 2 in 2012, remember? And I don't see them standing a chance against Boston in 2011 either, as Bosh isn't a good enough playoff performer to replicate Bron's production in that series.

Im not diminishing him. Thats your defensive posturing.

As for the 2011 and 2012 the Heat would have been able to have a more-balanced roster with the cap room.

[PJR]

:oldlol: You would think the Cavaliers were the 1 seed right now, the way the LeBron stan is circle jerking in this thread.

LeBron has been completely embarrassed on the court on many instances, playing with 22 year old Kyrie Irving, and 26 year old Kevin Love (IN PRIME TALENTS).

The Cavs have been absolutely atrocious defensively with LeBron or without.


The Cavs lost to the goddam Knicks (:oldlol: ) in the "Greatest Spectacle of all time" game.


Hell, even the currently porous Heat, minus Bosh beat the Cavs with LeBron very present, on Christmas.

How about you clowns actually wait until the season ends, so you can actually have something to boast about?

The Heat aint shit this year thus far, among many reasons. And the Cavs with LeBron aint been all that special either.

[Wade's Rings]

14' Heat (a .400 team without LeBron)?

The team only kept 6 players that were here last year: Birdman, Wade, bosh, Cole, Chalmers, and Haslem. The players we do have been pretty inconsistent or straight trash: Deng, Cole, Chalmers. We had some Coaching changes which probably didn't do much. Wade missed 7 games and Bosh missed 6 i believe. You do have to take those factors into consideration when looking at this.

[nba_55]

The team only kept 6 players that were here last year: Birdman, Wade, bosh, Cole, Chalmers, and Haslem. The players we do have been pretty inconsistent or straight trash: Deng, Cole, Chalmers. We had some Coaching changes which probably didn't do much. Wade missed 7 games and Bosh missed 6 i believe. You do have to take those factors into consideration when looking at this.
Didn't lose anyone significant apart from Allen, Battier wasn't even in rotation.

[Wade's Rings]

No shit sherlock.

Allthough Wade would have gotten to the East finals with Bosh in 2011 maybe 2012.

Miami would've won Titles without Lebron.

[Wade's Rings]

Didn't lose anyone significatif apart from Allen, Battier wasn't even in rotation.

He was moved out of rotation towards the end of the year, i think. Lebron of course had a big impact but thisHeat team has definitely under achieved.

[JT123]

The team only kept 6 players that were here last year: Birdman, Wade, bosh, Cole, Chalmers, and Haslem. The players we do have been pretty inconsistent or straight trash: Deng, Cole, Chalmers. We had some Coaching changes which probably didn't do much. Wade missed 7 games and Bosh missed 6 i believe. You do have to take those factors into consideration when looking at this.
:facepalm Other than Lebron all their core pieces are intact from last season. Most of the players they didn't keep (Lewis, Beasley, Jones, Oden,) weren't even in the rotation last season. Then there is Battier who was completely useless last season, and the 40 year old Ray Allen.
As for the injuries, every team in the league has had it's top players miss time this season. :no: There is no excuse for the Heat being six games under .500

[WallIn]

Funny how scrutinized in the Nets, 'inexperienced' Jason Kidd is outcoaching Spoelstra at the moment. And he's got no Jabari.

No excuses.

[JebronLames]

Wade is playing like an all star now. He won't be playing like this later in the season.

[305Baller]

:facepalm Other than Lebron all their core pieces are intact from last season. Most of the players they didn't keep (Lewis, Beasley, Jones, Oden,) weren't even in the rotation last season. Then there is Battier who was completely useless last season, and the 40 year old Ray Allen.
As for the injuries, every team in the league has had it's top players miss time this season. :no: There is no excuse for the Heat being six games under .500

Heat should be better, no doubt. They have been playing stretches of crap.

[Wade's Rings]

Wade's entire career minus Shaq and LeBron, including both when LeBron and Shaq were on the team but hurt and the seasons where neither were on the roster, consists of 0.500 or so basketball. In contrast, LeBron was getting to the Finals with scrubs and leading 60+ win teams in Cleveland before Wade. This year LeBron has a 1-7 team without him above 0.600 with him.

Use some context. Wade was a rookie in 2004 and the 2005 team improved greatly in depth and added Shaq. What teammates did he have in 2009 & 2010? Lebron went through 2 .500 teams,the Pistons who fell in Offensive & Defensive Efficiency, and choked it up against the Spurs. He had an excellent supporting cast in 2009 & 2010 and they were the favorites to win the Title.

I just made this account yesterday but i already know you're one of the biggest fa*s on this site.

[305Baller]

Miami would've won Titles without Lebron.

It's possible. Load up the Heat with rebounders and 3 point shooters and they would have been great.

[PJR]

every team in the league has had it's top players miss time this season. :no: There is no excuse for the Heat being six games under .500

The Heat are underachieving, but miss me with this "every team" bullshit.

Go ahead and find me the team this year, where it's top two players both missed 8 games a piece, and also lost another starter (McRoberts), and is still very much in the thick of things in their conference, and has a record well over .500.



I'll wait.

[305Baller]

Go ahead and find me the team this year, where it's top two players both missed 8 games a piece, and also lost another starter (McRoberts), and is still very much in the thick of things in their conference.

I'll wait.

CMon McRoberts sucks. The injury thing is a lame excuse. I say this as a Heat fan. The heat were fine until Wade came back and it has been inconsistent crap ball since.

Remember when Chalmers was carrying them? Then Wade returned and I dont know what happened. I think Anderson getting hurt was a huge deal also.

[PJR]

Use some context. Wade was a rookie in 2004 and the 2005 team improved greatly in depth and added Shaq. What teammates did he have in 2009 & 2010? Lebron went through 2 .500 teams,the Pistons who fell in Offensive & Defensive Efficiency, and choked it up against the Spurs. He had an excellent supporting cast in 2009 & 2010 and they were the favorites to win the Title.

I just made this account yesterday but i already know you're one of the biggest fa*s on this site.

That's ALL he does is hurl shit without context. Certified clown.

[PJR]

CMon McRoberts sucks. The injury thing is a lame excuse. I say this as a Heat fan. The heat were fine until Wade came back and it has been inconsistent crap ball since.

The Heat had a +31 advantage in Josh McRoberts 296 minutes this year.

For a team that lacks good depth, and has poor point guards, he was important with his ability to be a playmaker/enabler on offense. Smarten up, kiddo.

[305Baller]

The Heat had a +31 advantage in Josh McRoberts 296 minutes this year.

For a team that lacks good depth, and has poor point guards, he was important with his ability to be a playmaker/enabler on offense. Smarten up, kiddo.

Ive been watching the games. Numbers dont tell the whole story. Im in the McRoberts sucks camp. Dont tell me to smarten up when you disagree. Thats such an entitled attitude.

Furthermore, McRoberts shooting sucked, his passing was erratic and his rebounding negligible. He does nothing great, everything ok. Plus the Heat were winning without him.

Youre just so off.

[PJR]

Ive been watching the games. Numbers dont tell the whole story. Im in the McRoberts sucks camp. Dont tell me to smarten up when you disagree. Thats such an entitled attitude.

Well sorry to say, but you are wrong, champ. McRoberts doesn't suck. And the numbers prove it. He's got a skillset as a passer, one that Spo was banking with his invert offense.

As for you disputing the numbers? Well...Two people can come away watching something, and come away with two completely different opinions. The Numbers are there to provide an objective piece of information. The numbers say, McRoberts, for the time he was on the court, was making a clear impact.

[305Baller]

Well sorry to say, but you are wrong, champ. McRoberts doesn't suck. And the numbers prove it. He's got a skillset as passer, one that Spo was banking with his invert offense.

As for you disputing the numbers? Well...Two people can come away watching something, and come away with two completely different opinions. The Numbers are there to provide an objective piece of information. The numbers say, McRoberts, for the time he was on the court, was making a clear impact.

So why did the Heat win without him, genius?

[PJR]

So why did the Heat win without him, genius?

You're not this dense are you? C'mon. Please point out where I said Josh McRoberts was a franchise player, that the Heat could never replace or win without.

All I said was that he was piece that the Heat were banking on this season. And that he clearly had a positive impact when he played.

[mehyaM24]

:facepalm Other than Lebron all their core pieces are intact from last season. Most of the players they didn't keep (Lewis, Beasley, Jones, Oden,) weren't even in the rotation last season. Then there is Battier who was completely useless last season, and the 40 year old Ray Allen.
As for the injuries, every team in the league has had it's top players miss time this season. :no: There is no excuse for the Heat being six games under .500
its unfortunate, but something i've been preaching on here for years now. outside of shaq and lebron, wade has proven that he cannot lead a team very far. multiple first round exits along with missing the postseason entirely in 2008 (wade played enough games to turn the season around, but riley decided to shut him down because the results weren't there).

right now, even with another all-star caliber player and relatively DEEP roster, the heat might not even make the postseason. would be another asterisk mark on his legacy IMO.

[305Baller]

You're not this dense are you? C'mon. Please point out where I said Josh McRoberts was a franchise player, that the Heat could never replace or win without.

All I said was that he was piece that the Heat were banking on this season. And that he clearly had a positive impact when he played.

Woah, woah. Calm down there big guy. Nobody said he is a franchise player, etc. Im disagreeing wiith you that he was a positive. Im telling you he was a negative. Take it or leave it.

I hope he gets healthy and can continue to contribute and start to be more aggressive with his shot. Because as of now he sucks.

[PJR]

Woah, woah. Calm down there big guy. Nobody said he is a franchise player, etc. Im disagreeing wiith you that he was a positive. Im telling you he was a negative. Take it or leave it.

I hope he gets healthy and can continue to contribute and start to be more aggressive with his shot. Because as of now he sucks.

Whatever. All good. Agree to disagree.

[PJR]

its unfortunate, but something i've been preaching on here for years now. outside of shaq and lebron

You can apply this caveat with pretty much any all time great player who has won.

"He hasn't done much without another great player beside him"

LeBron did not win jack diddly before he played with Wade. He was winning more regular season games over a 3 year span, but NEVER closed the deal.

[Wade's Rings]

its unfortunate, but something i've been preaching on here for years now. outside of shaq and lebron, wade has proven that he cannot lead a team very far. multiple first round exits along with missing the postseason entirely in 2008 (wade played enough games to turn the season around, but riley decided to shut him down because the results weren't there).

right now, even with another all-star caliber player and relatively DEEP roster, the heat might not even make the postseason. would be another asterisk mark on his legacy IMO.

Lebron missed the Playoffs for 2 Consecutive years. Then in 2009 & 2010 Wade's squads sucked. His 2nd and 3rd option helped him out so much with their 2ppg on 15% shooting and 8ppg on 33% shooting in 2010. Lebron's teams were the favorites for those 2 years and they couldn't get the job done.

Speaking about this year Deng has been inconsistent, Chalmers and Cole have sucked, Bosh is scoring less than Wade while shooting worse as a big, Spoelstra has been terrible, McRoberts is side lined with a season ending injury, and he's going on 33 in a few weeks.

[JT123]

The Heat are underachieving, but miss me with this "every team" bullshit.

Go ahead and find me the team this year, where it's top two players both missed 8 games a piece, and also lost another starter (McRoberts), and is still very much in the thick of things in their conference, and has a record well over .500.



I'll wait.
OKC Thunder say hi. They are in a MUCH better conference as well, yet are now only one game below .500 :confusedshrug:
As for McRoberts, you can't seriously have expected that guy to be a major difference maker. :wtf: He's a career journeyman for a reason.

[PJR]

.....And the Thunder aren't in the playoffs right now. Thus, proving my point. I said find a team that's in the thick of things.

It's hard to overcome injuries. Especially when you lack good depth like Miami.

Thanks for playing.

[JT123]

right now, even with another all-star caliber player and relatively DEEP roster, the heat might not even make the postseason. would be another asterisk mark on his legacy IMO.
I've been thinking about this as well. If the Wade can't lead the Heat to the playoffs despite having an All Star in Bosh and playing in a very weak conference, how could this not be a hit on his legacy?
The Heat were supposedly on a mission this year to prove that they were more than products of Lebron's greatness, but so far they are failing miserably in that effort. Pretty crazy to realize that if Paul George hadn't gone down this summer the Heat wouldn't even be in the playoff picture right now. :eek:

[PJR]

[B]Lebron missed the Playoffs for 2 Consecutive years.

I do love how the LeStans always conveniently leave that fact out. :lol

[JT123]

.....And the Thunder aren't in the playoffs right now. Thus, proving my point. I said find a team that's in the thick of things.

It's hard to overcome injuries. Especially when you lack good depth like Miami.

Thanks for playing.
They are only 2 games back of the Suns in the loss column. :lol
We both know they are going to get in, and when they do there isn't a team in that conference that they can't beat.

[PJR]

I've been thinking about this as well. If the Wade can't lead the Heat to the playoffs despite having an All Star in Bosh and playing in a very weak conference, how could this not be a hit on his legacy?
The Heat were supposedly on a mission this year to prove that they were more than products of Lebron's greatness, but so far they are failing miserably in that effort. Pretty crazy to realize that if Paul George hadn't gone down this summer the Heat wouldn't even be in the playoff picture right now. :eek:

Wade is 33 years old. And playing well individually. Wouldn't be any kind of blemish to his legacy. It would only be one to to the retarded yokels like yourself who lack logic, reason, and perspective.

There's only so much a 33 year old 6'4 shooting guard can do, when his team is among the worse defensive and rebounding teams in the league.

[Wade's Rings]

I do love how the LeStans always conveniently leave that fact out. :lol

That JT guy is a joke i don't even bother wasting my time replying to him.

[97 bulls]

.....And the Thunder aren't in the playoffs right now. Thus, proving my point. I said find a team that's in the thick of things.

It's hard to overcome injuries. Especially when you lack good depth like Miami.

Thanks for playing.
They'd be a fifth seed in the East

[edrick]

I do love how the LeStans always conveniently leave that fact out. :lol

He only missed the playoffs his first two seasons in the NBA... he was 19/20. Who gives a ****?

Bosh only made the playoffs two out of 7 years in Toronto. Why do people ignore that? Kyrie, Love, how many years have they played and have yet to play a single playoff game? :facepalm

[PJR]

They'd be a fifth seed in the East

They're not in the East, though.

And they SHOULD make the playoffs.

Durant and Westbrook are in the heart of their primes, and two of 10 best players in the world. Ofcourse when they came back, they were going to play .700 ball. They also have much better depth than a team like Miami. They had more margin for error.

[PJR]

He only missed the playoffs his first two seasons in the NBA... he was 19/20. Who gives a ****?


I personally don't. I don't hold that against him at all. IBecause I have logic, reason, and perspective.

But it's funny how certain LeStans will be quick to tell you "Wade has a .500 record without Shaq and LeBron" to help propel an agenda...Yeah, where's the context there? :oldlol:

[Roundball_Rock]

The difference, in a nutshell, between a player like LeBron and a player like Wade:

LeBron with scrubs: NBA Finals, 60+ win seasons.
Wade with scrubs: 0.500 and first round exits.

The injury excuse is invalid. Look at Chicago as an example. Rose has missed 12 games, Noah 7, Gibson 9, Hinrich 7, Gasol 3, Butler 3, Dunleavy 5 and counting. These are all key players for the Bulls. You can do the same with any team. The difference between a good team and an average team is good teams are able to manage through inevitable injuries over the course of an 82 game season.

LeBron, fresh out of high school, took a 17 win team and made it a 35 win team. At age 20 he elevated them past 0.500 to 42 wins. So 20 year old LeBron with scrubs was essentially doing what peak Wade was doing with scrubs in 2009 and 2010. :lol

[JT123]

The difference, in a nutshell, between a player like LeBron and a player like Wade:

LeBron with scrubs: NBA Finals, 60+ win seasons.
Wade with scrubs: 0.500 and first round exits.

The injury excuse is invalid. Look at Chicago as an example. Rose has missed 12 games, Noah 7, Gibson 9, Hinrich 7, Gasol 3, Butler 3, Dunleavy 5 and counting. These are all key players for the Bulls. You can do the same with any team. The difference between a good team and an average team is good teams are able to manage through inevitable injuries over the course of an 82 game season.

LeBron, fresh out of high school, took a 17 win team and made it a 35 win team. At age 20 he elevated them past 0.500 to 42 wins. So 20 year old LeBron with scrubs was essentially doing what peak Wade was doing with scrubs in 2009 and 2010. :lol
:oldlol: :applause:

[mehyaM24]

You can apply this caveat with pretty much any all time great player who has won.

"He hasn't done much without another great player beside him"

LeBron did not win jack diddly before he played with Wade. He was winning more regular season games over a 3 year span, but NEVER closed the deal.
disagree. lebron didn't win a championship, but he wasn't missing the postseason in the middle of his prime NOR was he one and done in the playoffs like wade has been WITHOUT lebron and shaq.

wade probably isn't at his ABSOLUTE prime ATM, but he is still producing stats (objectively empty if we're going by TEAM success). missing the postseason twice while producing (once again, objectively empty numbers) and playing a nice volume of games definitely leaves a negative in his career, and all time ranking.

take RAPM for example which measures impact: the stat suggests wade isn't even in the top 50 when it comes to statistically having an impact on your teams' success - wait a minute though, would you like to know WHO is on there though? luol deng - who by contrast has been solid all year with the exception of a couple games in january.

btw, the 50 or so players that rate ahead of wade ALL play a significant role and get SUBSTANTIAL minutes. this is important because you cannot pigeon hole this stat. everything needs context - and you have it here.

anyway, if you'd like to know WHERE i rate wade, and need advice on using this stat, PM me.

[mehyaM24]

:oldlol: :applause:
looks like roundball already knocked it out of the ballpark. nothing else needs to be said - wade MUST get this team into the postseason for his legacy NOT to take a hit. miami's in the pathetic eastern conference for goodness sake. :oldlol:

[PJR]

LeBron + Scrubs in 2010 = Lost to the Celtics

Wade + scrubs in 2010 = Lost to the Celtics (and PLAYED much better individually)



LeBron led his team to home court advantage in 2009 and 2010, but could never close than deal in the Eastern Conference. :confusedshrug:

[red1]

looks like roundball already knocked it out of the ballpark. nothing else needs to be said - wade MUST get this team into the postseason for his legacy NOT to take a hit. miami's in the pathetic eastern conference for goodness sake. :oldlol:

broski got nothing to prove

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/10/54/46/105446d6bc0696f25c4e74639e75bfd7.jpg




do me a favor and remind me of how many rings bron won without wade. he is the greater player right?

[mehyaM24]

LeBron + Scrubs in 2010 = Lost to the Celtics

Wade + scrubs in 2010 = Lost to the Celtics (and PLAYED much better individually)



LeBron led his team to home court advantage in 2009 and 2010, but could never close than deal in the Eastern Conference. :confusedshrug:

you could also say:

lebron + scrubs in 2009 = swept the hawks THAT wade lost in 7 to, while taking his team to the eastern conference finals

wade at his peak + scrubs in 2009 = one and done in the first round against the hawks, lebron swept

am i right :confusedshrug:

[red1]

do me a favor and remind me of how many rings bron won without wade

oh wait nvm

http://lobshots.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/d-wade-laugh.jpg

[WallIn]

They'd be a fifth seed in the East

Seventh

[PJR]

you could also say:

lebron + scrubs in 2009 = swept the hawks THAT wade lost in 7 to, while taking his team to the eastern conference finals

wade at his peak + scrubs in 2009 = one and done in the first round against the hawks, lebron swept

am i right :confusedshrug:

Sure you could. Just make sure you add the proper context to it. Like Wade's supporting cast in 2009 was significantly worse than the 2009 Cavs. Not to mention, both Wade's starting center and small forward were injured during that series.

If you don't add proper context to it, It would almost be as stupid as me saying Wade + scrubs in 2006 = beat the Pistons in 6, while LeBron + scrubs = lost the Pistons in 7 in 2006.

[PJR]

The greatness of LeBron James before playing with D.Wade, in the biggest game of his career to date at that current time....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fdqy27KsqYk


:bowdown: :bowdown:

[Wade's Rings]

Sure you could. Just make sure you add the proper context to it. Like Wade's supporting cast in 2009 was significantly worse than the 2009 Cavs. Not to mention, both Wade's starting center and small forward were injured during that series.

If you don't add proper context to it, It would almost be as stupid as me saying Wade + scrubs in 2006 = beat the Pistons in 6, while LeBron + scrubs = lost the Pistons in 7 in 2006.

Lebron stans as usual only posting what fits their agenda.

[red1]

The greatness of LeBron James before playing with D.Wade, in the biggest game of his career to date at that current time....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fdqy27KsqYk


:bowdown: :bowdown:
:lebronamazed: mehyam don't want to see that

[305Baller]

Cmon you guys are still arguing Wade vs Bron. Im a Miami guy but yeah LeBron is better. Get over it.

Wade was a better scorer until about 2012 but LeBron was the better overall player.

Can we please move on from this? This is about Miami in 2015.LeBron is history.

[305Baller]

The greatness of LeBron James before playing with D.Wade, in the biggest game of his career to date at that current time....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fdqy27KsqYk


:bowdown: :bowdown:

Great Celtic defense. They took out LeBron ball and LeBrons team didnt know what to do. Sounds familiar.

[305Baller]

When Shane Battier died the Heat died with him.

#roleplayersareessential

[Warfan]

Get a new coach. Spoelstra is a f*ckface.

[JT123]

The greatness of LeBron James before playing with D.Wade, in the biggest game of his career to date at that current time....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fdqy27KsqYk


:bowdown: :bowdown:
How well do you think Wade would perform if before a game he found out Haslem was banging his mom? :rolleyes:

[PJR]

How well do you think Wade would perform if before a game he found out Haslem was banging his mom? :rolleyes:


Probably like this, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFe8KUEQdn4

[Wade's Rings]

Probably like this, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFe8KUEQdn4

:roll: :applause:

[LakersFan626]

I thought Lebron was holding back Alpha D-Wade and Alpha CB-1?

Meanwhile Lebron is carrying a bunch of scrubs once again to the playoffs, Lecoasting at the moment, and letting the Cavs up their game while he is rehabbing. True leader.

I thought Lebron ball made Bosh into a 3 pt jump shooter?

Once again, Kobe stan logic debunked.

LeGod Prevails.

10/30/14- Lost to the KNICKS at home (LeBron playing... you lost to the worst team in the league at home WITH LeBron!)
11/5/14- Lost to Utah at the buzzer (LeBron playing)
11/17/14- Lost to the NUGGETS at home (LeBron playing)
12/12/14- Lost to the Pelicans (LeBron playing)
12/25/14- Lost to... the Miami Heat... with LeBron.
12/28/14- Lost to the PISTONS at home (LeBron playing)

Also ironic is that you guys are one of Miami's only wins as of late. 19-18 is nothing to be proud of, and it's gotten bad enough to where you traded for somebody who untied people's shoelaces last year as "help" for LeBron, when he has NEVER played well in the playoffs (a lot like Mo Williams) and is more known for being a knucklehead than a good player anymore.

[Lamar Odumbb]

Its a wrap Miami, Harold Miner and Ronny Seikaly aint walking through that door.

[GrapeApe]

The Heat are 11-11 with Wade and Bosh. Not that great, but some idiot in this thread keeps saying they're 10-15 (which doesn't even add up correctly since the Heat have played 36 games and Wade and Bosh have missed 14). Anyway, they'll eventually break out of this funk and string together some wins. Aside from McRoberts, they're close to being healthy for the first time all year. Hopefully they can start to develop some cohesion and rhythm, and I'm excited about Whiteside's potential. Spo has been dreadful though, no denying that.

[Dresta]

The difference, in a nutshell, between a player like LeBron and a player like Wade:

LeBron with scrubs: NBA Finals, 60+ win seasons.
Wade with scrubs: 0.500 and first round exits.

The injury excuse is invalid. Look at Chicago as an example. Rose has missed 12 games, Noah 7, Gibson 9, Hinrich 7, Gasol 3, Butler 3, Dunleavy 5 and counting. These are all key players for the Bulls. You can do the same with any team. The difference between a good team and an average team is good teams are able to manage through inevitable injuries over the course of an 82 game season.

LeBron, fresh out of high school, took a 17 win team and made it a 35 win team. At age 20 he elevated them past 0.500 to 42 wins. So 20 year old LeBron with scrubs was essentially doing what peak Wade was doing with scrubs in 2009 and 2010. :lol
Rookie Wade led Miami to the 2nd round, while Bron couldn't make the playoffs for 2 seasons. In his next season, he would have made the finals if not for an unfortunate rib injury (and perhaps a title). The season after that he won a chip with one of the worst supporting casts ever to be dragged to a chip (again, find me more instances when a team one a chip with its best guy averaging 20+ more points than anyone else). Before you bring up Shaq, like the moron you are, look at the numbers, and you will see that Miami was at its best with him OFF THE FLOOR in that finals and with Zo in his place - he played like absolute trash.

Nor does Bron 'lead scrubs' to the NBA finals - a team of hard-working and defensively sound 'scrubs, and good 3-point shooters, are the ideal supports for Bron's style of play, and his need to dominate the ball and dictate the flow of the game. He did not take 'scrubs' to 60+ wins (if so, why didn't he take almost the same scrubs to more wins in 08?), but a team that was built around his strengths as a player. Bron doesn't even make the finals in 07 if Boobie Gibson doesn't step up and play like a superstar in the deciding game. We saw what happens when Bron's teammates don't give him space to work in as in the 07 finals. Your whole post is built on fallacies and distortions.

The injury excuse is perfectly valid. The Bulls have one of the deepest teams in the league and can cope with injuries better. Miami has had a key piece go down for the season, and has struggled to get its two best guys on the court at the same time. Please tell me when the Bulls have been forced to play something akin to a Cole/Chalmers backcourt for key and extended minutes? My guess is that if they did then they wouldn't be doing so hot themselves.

STOP. WITH. YOUR. CHILDISH. BULLSHIT - everything is a distortion with you.

[Bandito]

Rookie Wade led Miami to the 2nd round, while Bron couldn't make the playoffs for 2 seasons. In his next season, he would have made the finals if not for an unfortunate rib injury (and perhaps a title). The season after that he won a chip with one of the worst supporting casts ever to be dragged to a chip (again, find me more instances when a team one a chip with its best guy averaging 20+ more points than anyone else). Before you bring up Shaq, like the moron you are, look at the numbers, and you will see that Miami was at its best with him OFF THE FLOOR in that finals and with Zo in his place - he played like absolute trash.

Nor does Bron 'lead scrubs' to the NBA finals - a team of hard-working and defensively sound 'scrubs, and good 3-point shooters, are the ideal supports for Bron's style of play, and his need to dominate the ball and dictate the flow of the game. He did not take 'scrubs' to 60+ wins (if so, why didn't he take almost the same scrubs to more wins in 08?), but a team that was built around his strengths as a player. Bron doesn't even make the finals in 07 if Boobie Gibson doesn't step up and play like a superstar in the deciding game. We saw what happens when Bron's teammates don't give him space to work in as in the 07 finals. Your whole post is built on fallacies and distortions.

The injury excuse is perfectly valid. The Bulls have one of the deepest teams in the league and can cope with injuries better. Miami has had a key piece go down for the season, and has struggled to get its two best guys on the court at the same time. Please tell me when the Bulls have been forced to play something akin to a Cole/Chalmers backcourt for key and extended minutes? My guess is that if they did then they wouldn't be doing so hot themselves.

STOP. WITH. YOUR. CHILDISH. BULLSHIT - everything is a distortion with you.
:applause:

[Roundball_Rock]

:lol at using LeBron at age 19 and 20 against him. He took a 17 win team to 35 wins at 19 years old and then got them above 0.500 when most players would be sophomores. He did not join a team with Odom, Butler as a rookie.

In Wade's second season Shaq was the runner-up MVP in one of the closest MVP finishes ever.

Yeah, Shaq was not great in the Finals--but he was excellent to get the Heat out of the ECF and was still a top 10 player circa 06'. :roll: at calling the 06' Heat, with two top 10 players--one who happened to be the best player at his position--and several good role players one of the worst supporting casts of all-time. We saw Wade later in his career with weak supporting casts; we know what happened...

The facts speak for themselves (2005-2007):

Heat with Shaq, without Wade: very good--did not skip a beat.
Heat with Wade, without Shaq: 0.500

This should come as no surprise. The same trends occurred in L.A. with Kobe in place of Shaq. The MDE's value went far beyond even his impressive stats.

Peak Wade in 2009 and 2010 was struggling to get past 0.500 and was promptly losing in the first round. After LeBron turned 21 he has not had a winning percentage worse than 0.600 in the games he has played nor he has ever done worse than losing in the secound round.

:oldlol: at attempts to make the 2007-2010 Cavs "supporting cast" look respectable. LeBron is one of the few players in history who could have produced that level of team success with such players.

2008 LeBron versus 2009 LeBron? It was in 2009 that LeBron elevated his game to another level and became the best player in basketball. It is disingenuous to act as if 08' LeBron and 09' LeBron were similar editions.

Injuries are part of basketball. As any basketball fan knows, they will pile up over the course of the season.

[PJR]

:oldlol: Yeah, the Heat really didn't skip a beat in the 2005 Eastern Conference Finals, when Wade was injured for game 6, and the Heat were blown out with MVP runner up Shaq leading the way.


Meanwhile, here's how Wade performed in the games Shaq missed due to injury in the 2005 Postseason, against the Washington Wizards in the Eastern Semi Finals.




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7tAwT30Gtk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lcmgy89_DNs


We can play this game all day LeStan.

[LEFT4DEAD]

Lebron is top 3 all time just based on how weak team he led to 4 straight finals and even won 2 times. We all need to face it. He did so much for his legacy just by leaving the Heat and showing to the world how weak of a supporting cast he had. :applause:

[Roundball_Rock]

You don't use a couple of games as a valid sample size.:lol I looked at every instance of Wade or Shaq being out from 2005-2007 and the evidence speaks for itself. Interestingly, the data for Shaq/Kobe from 2000-2004 shows the same trend.

Shaq. :bowdown:


e it. He did so much for his legacy just by leaving the Heat and showing to the world how weak of a supporting cast he had

How many people could get to the Finals with a 0.400 team? It is great the Heat core remained intact so we can see this experiment play out. The excuse LeBron haters used for Cleveland, and it was valid, was several other key players left along with LeBron, even though it was clear that team sans LeBron would struggle to get to 0.300. Moreover, Wade is having a renaissance and the Heat still are in 8th. As someone noted, they are a Paul George injury away from 9th and keep in mind Detroit is fast rising up the standings and is not too far from the Heat and its 2 superstars.

[PJR]

Yeah, you got nothing. That's what I thought.

But let's talk Bran's Cavs barely holding onto 5th seed in the East with 22 year old ALL STAR Irving, and 26 year old ALL STAR Love. :lol

How hilarious will it be if the so called best player in the game, can't get out of the East with 22 year old, and 26 year old all stars as teammates? Not to mention the new positive reinforcements that the Cavs just acquired via trade.




Remember, Vegas had O/U for the Cavs at 58 wins, while the Heat at 43.5. See here: https://www.sportsinsights.com/blog/2014-15-nba-win-totals/

Who's really underachieving this year?

LeBron's back in Cleveland, and won't have a former champion and Finals MVP to help guide him through the East this time around. Got to lead this one on his own, with his new set of a young, in PRIME all stars.

Let's hope he fairs better than this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4d-Mnfz6iB0

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

OT, but PJR weren't you the guy I caught stealing posts off of realgm? Not that this makes you lose credibility, or that you should really quit posting because you're a hack, but just saying.

[Roundball_Rock]

But let's talk Bran's Cavs barely holding onto 5th seed in the East with 22 year old ALL STAR Irving, and 26 year old ALL STAR Love.

Cavs with LeBron: 18-11 (51 win pace)
Cavs without LeBron: 1-7 (10 win pace)

He has that team in 5th! :bowdown:

[ArbitraryWater]

Roundball, I like what you're doing with stats, especially since they do a good Job of displaying LeBron's value... The team's with/without his servies, and the year after, since the Heat CORE is still intact, AND LeBron was replaced by an all-star..

But what you're doing with Wade, like with Pippen, is pretty foolish... You have what, a 3-year sample of him playing without a Shaq or LeBron? And in those years he carried desastrous rosters? Cmon...

Wade's longevity is WEAK, he shouldn't be sitting on this record ATM, but before this year, there isn't much to blame him for as LEADER of the Team. I mean, he already took over in the '05 Playoffs (sophomore Wade over prime Shaq).

And same for Pippen/Jordan, your career records of how they did without the other is incredibly flawed and useless, Jordan is 5x the player Pippen will ever be... It's like Kobetards with their stupid "Who did better without the other, Shaq without Kobe or Kobe without Shaq?" Leads to absolutely nothing..

[Roundball_Rock]

1) An absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. If you gave Wade a full career without LeBron or Shaq I am sure he would have had a few runs. The point is LeBron s unique among his contemporaries in being able to achieve such a high level of team success with scrubs.

2) No one has ever said Pippen>Jordan except trolls. Pippen was integral to the Bulls' success, though. Pippen did what Havelick, McHale, Worthy, Penny, Kobe and now Wade failed to do: be the best player on a team that lost a GOAT-caliber player and keep that team at an elite level. It also is interesting that the 94' Bulls with Pippen, without Jordan=the 98' Bulls with Jordan, without Pippen (half a season). If it was all Mike, why were they contenders without him--and with a scrub starting at SG? The Heat have went from 54 win and the Finals to 0.400 without LeBron. :lol It also is a historical fact that the Bulls' took the leap to the next level immediately after Pippen became a permanent starter. They were 38-44, 30-52 (9-9 with MJ), 40-42, 50-32 and then 13-11 to start the 89' season before Pip became a starter. They lost in his first start--and then proceeded to go on a huge run and the rest is history. Just like Magic, even though KAJ was the better player, was key in elevating LA to the next level.

Pippen was a winner and a true leader. Whenever he missed time, his team's performance fell substantially. Even his Portland teams went from #4 and #5 in winning percentage with him to #18 and #19 in 2002 and 2003 without him--and this was with 36 and 37 year old Pip! You cannot ignore consistent trends over the course of a career. When winners like Pippen and LeBron are out the lineup their teams pay the price.

[LAZERUSS]

1) An absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. If you gave Wade a full career without LeBron or Shaq I am sure he would have had a few runs. The point is LeBron s unique among his contemporaries in being able to achieve such a high level of team success with scrubs.

2) No one has ever said Pippen>Jordan except trolls. Pippen was integral to the Bulls' success, though. Pippen did what Havelick, McHale, Worthy, Penny, Kobe and no Wade failed to do: be the best player on a team that lost a GOAT-caliber player and keep that team at an elite level. It also is interesting that the 94' Bulls with Pippen, without Jordan=the 98' Bulls with Jordan, without Pippen (half a season). If it was all Mike, why were they contenders without him--and with a scrub starting at SG? The Heat have went from 54 win and the Finals to 0.400 without LeBron. :lol


:applause: :applause: :applause:

[JT123]

1) An absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. If you gave Wade a full career without LeBron or Shaq I am sure he would have had a few runs. The point is LeBron s unique among his contemporaries in being able to achieve such a high level of team success with scrubs.

2) No one has ever said Pippen>Jordan except trolls. Pippen was integral to the Bulls' success, though. Pippen did what Havelick, McHale, Worthy, Penny, Kobe and now Wade failed to do: be the best player on a team that lost a GOAT-caliber player and keep that team at an elite level. It also is interesting that the 94' Bulls with Pippen, without Jordan=the 98' Bulls with Jordan, without Pippen (half a season). If it was all Mike, why were they contenders without him--and with a scrub starting at SG? The Heat have went from 54 win and the Finals to 0.400 without LeBron. :lol It also is a historical fact that the Bulls' took the leap to the next level immediately after Pippen became a permanent starter. They were 38-44, 30-52 (9-9 with MJ), 40-42, 50-32 and then 13-11 to start the 89' season before Pip became a starter. They lost in his first start--and then proceeded to go on a huge run and the rest is history. Just like Magic, even though KAJ was the better player, was key in elevating LA to the next level.

Pippen was a winner and a true leader. Whenever he missed time, his team's performance fell substantially. Even his Portland teams went from #4 and #5 in winning percentage with him to #18 and #19 in 2002 and 2003 without him--and this was with 36 and 37 year old Pip! You cannot ignore consistent trends over the course of a career. When winners like Pippen and LeBron are out the lineup their teams pay the price.
:applause:

[97 bulls]

1) An absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. If you gave Wade a full career without LeBron or Shaq I am sure he would have had a few runs. The point is LeBron s unique among his contemporaries in being able to achieve such a high level of team success with scrubs.

2) No one has ever said Pippen>Jordan except trolls. Pippen was integral to the Bulls' success, though. Pippen did what Havelick, McHale, Worthy, Penny, Kobe and now Wade failed to do: be the best player on a team that lost a GOAT-caliber player and keep that team at an elite level. It also is interesting that the 94' Bulls with Pippen, without Jordan=the 98' Bulls with Jordan, without Pippen (half a season). If it was all Mike, why were they contenders without him--and with a scrub starting at SG? The Heat have went from 54 win and the Finals to 0.400 without LeBron. :lol It also is a historical fact that the Bulls' took the leap to the next level immediately after Pippen became a permanent starter. They were 38-44, 30-52 (9-9 with MJ), 40-42, 50-32 and then 13-11 to start the 89' season before Pip became a starter. They lost in his first start--and then proceeded to go on a huge run and the rest is history. Just like Magic, even though KAJ was the better player, was key in elevating LA to the next level.

Pippen was a winner and a true leader. Whenever he missed time, his team's performance fell substantially. Even his Portland teams went from #4 and #5 in winning percentage with him to #18 and #19 in 2002 and 2003 without him--and this was with 36 and 37 year old Pip! You cannot ignore consistent trends over the course of a career. When winners like Pippen and LeBron are out the lineup their teams pay the price.
A thing of beauty. Roundball for president

[GrapeApe]

I love how everyone's ignoring the fact that the thread title isn't even accurate since the Heat are .500 with Wade and Bosh. Nevertheless, I expect them to be closer to .600 than .500 with those guys so they do need to pick it up. They will, and I still think they could be a dangerous team in the playoffs. I hope to see Whiteside starting by then.

[97 bulls]

Roundball, I like what you're doing with stats, especially since they do a good Job of displaying LeBron's value... The team's with/without his servies, and the year after, since the Heat CORE is still intact, AND LeBron was replaced by an all-star..

But what you're doing with Wade, like with Pippen, is pretty foolish... You have what, a 3-year sample of him playing without a Shaq or LeBron? And in those years he carried desastrous rosters? Cmon...

Wade's longevity is WEAK, he shouldn't be sitting on this record ATM, but before this year, there isn't much to blame him for as LEADER of the Team. I mean, he already took over in the '05 Playoffs (sophomore Wade over prime Shaq).

And same for Pippen/Jordan, your career records of how they did without the other is incredibly flawed and useless, Jordan is 5x the player Pippen will ever be... It's like Kobetards with their stupid "Who did better without the other, Shaq without Kobe or Kobe without Shaq?" Leads to absolutely nothing..
No. Jordan fans started this type of nonsense. Going back to the Shaq/Kobe Lakers. In an effort to undermine Bryants contributions to three championships. Until the Shaq/Kobe Lakers started their run, I never heard this comcept that the only way a players contributions to a Championship warrants full credit is by being the teams best player. Guys like Cousey, Hondo, Dr. J (83 Sixers), Mchale, Worthy got full credit for their role in their teams championships. Only Pippen and Bryants contributions are undermined. Even Wade gets full credit for his two Championships while playing next to James. Why? It makes mo sense

[97 bulls]

I love how everyone's ignoring the fact that the thread title isn't even accurate since the Heat are .500 with Wade and Bosh. Nevertheless, I expect them to be closer to .600 than .500 with those guys they do need to pick it up. They will, and I still think they could be a dangerous team in the playoffs. I hope to see Whiteside starting by then.
Oh come off it. Nobody makes an assessment on a teams wins and losses based solely on their record when their two best players play. We understood what the OP was saying. If Wade was as good as you say he is, they should be doing better. The fact is this is nothing new to Wade and Bosh led teams.

[Roundball_Rock]

Exactly. It started with MJ stans diminishing Kobe by invoking Shaq (this was back when Kobe was the primary threat to MJ and MJ stans hated Kobe, not LeBron). Kobe stans then responded by pointing out MJ had Pippen. MJ fans then would denigrate Pippen to maintain the myth that MJ won by himself.

What is Miami's record with both Wade and Bosh? 9-15 is the correct figure. That is a winning percentage of 0.375 :lol --a 31 win pace. The information is available on the Miami Heat page at basketballreference. You can look at the team's records with various starting lineups.

Why do people keep invoking Wade being out? Look at Miami's history when Wade misses games--something he does in most years. Compare their record with him and without him each year. Wade, for whatever reason, simply does not move the needle much in that regard. The Heat are 11-17 with Wade this year. Their winning percentage is actually slightly higher without him this year.

I did a thread a year or two ago looking at LeBron, Wade, Kobe, Chris Paul and maybe another player or two and their team's records when they missed games. What I found was the Lakers and Heat were not affected when Kobe and Wade were out--the difference was statistically insignificant. Paul's teams did dip to a fair degree and LeBron's teams fell of the cliff without him. I did the same for Shaq once in a thread arguing Shaq was top 5 all-time and Shaq's teams also suffered considerably without him, outside of 96'. The Lakers and Heat were 0.500 teams without Shaq.

We can get into why these trends exist and whether they are even relevant, and if so, to what degree. What cannot be disputed are the facts. You are free to look up these team's performances with or without these superstars yourself.

[Wade's Rings]

I love how everyone's ignoring the fact that the thread title isn't even accurate since the Heat are .500 with Wade and Bosh. Nevertheless, I expect them to be closer to .600 than .500 with those guys so they do need to pick it up. They will, and I still think they could be a dangerous team in the playoffs. I hope to see Whiteside starting by then.

Doesn't matter how many times you say this those Lebron Stans will continually choose to ignore it.

[Roundball_Rock]

Sorry, I double checked. They are 9-12 with Bosh and Wade. 0.429 percent, a 35 win pace.

[GrapeApe]

Oh come off it. Nobody makes an assessment on a teams wins and losses based solely on their record when their two best players play. We understood what the OP was saying. If Wade was as good as you say he is, they should be doing better. The fact is this is nothing new to Wade and Bosh led teams.

I agree they should be doing better and I acknowledged it in my post. I guess you chose to ignore that part. The title of the post specifically mentions the Heat's "2 superstars", so the topic DOES in fact apply to games that Wade and Bosh play. All I did was present a fact to provide context. The OP was obviously pushing an agenda and you're a smart enough poster to know this.

[aj1987]

Oh come off it. Nobody makes an assessment on a teams wins and losses based solely on their record when their two best players play. We understood what the OP was saying. If Wade was as good as you say he is, they should be doing better. The fact is this is nothing new to Wade and Bosh led teams.
Look at the current Heat team. They're playing like garbage. Watch a game, actually. Even with PEAK Pippen, this team would probably win ~5 games more than now. Injuries and inconsistency. I actually expected this team to win ~50. The PG's have been garbage, Deng is inconsistent as ****, the bench sucks balls, no center, Wade and Bosh have been out for a significant amount of time, Granger is trash, McBob is out for the season, etc..

[GrapeApe]

Sorry, I double checked. They are 9-12 with Bosh and Wade. 0.429 percent, a 35 win pace.

This is incorrect. The Heat have played 36 games and are 15-21. Wade has missed 8 games and Bosh 6 for a total of 14 combined. The Heat are 4-10 in those games. They are 11-11 when both play.

[97 bulls]

And this is what I've always tried to convey...... stats be damed, its all about IMPACT. IMPACT IMPACT IMPACT!!!!!!!!!!

[Roundball_Rock]

I am going by basketballreference. Where are you getting your numbers?

With Bosh/Wade: 9-12
With only Bosh: 3-4
With only Wade: 2-5 :oldlol:
With neither: 1-0

Bosh and Wade both have missed 8 games.

[GrapeApe]

I am going by basketballreference. Where are you getting your numbers?

With Bosh/Wade: 9-12
With only Bosh: 3-4
With only Wade: 2-5 :oldlol:
With neither: 1-0

Bosh and Wade both have missed 8 games.

I've watched every game and was only going by memory, but my memory is probably wrong and you're numbers are probably correct. I also forgot about the game neither Wade or Bosh played. I have no problem admitting being wrong. Like I said, they need to pick things up. Still a long way to go.

[aj1987]

Yeah, I'm assuming that it's pretty easy to have "impact" on games when you have a great team around you. Only 2 more losses while missing the GOAT (33/7/6/3/1)?

[mehyaM24]

And this is what I've always tried to convey...... stats be damed, its all about IMPACT. IMPACT IMPACT IMPACT!!!!!!!!!!
then you would love RAPM, which quantifies individual impact. the margin for error is very small as well given it adjusts for roster lineups in addition to separating teams (e.g. contenders from non-contenders)

RAPM suggests scottie pippen had equal to and/or more impact to the bulls' success than jordan from 1996-98. take what you will from that, but i've seen you repeatedly claim pippen is massively underrated by naysayers - this stat does its best to correct that.

[97 bulls]

Yeah, I'm assuming that it's pretty easy to have "impact" on games when you have a great team around you. Only 2 more losses while missing the GOAT (33/7/6/3/1)?
Dude. The Heat are nowhere near 500. That's the point. As great as you tout Wade as being, more should be expected. Especially with the Eastern Conference being as bad as it is.

[97 bulls]

then you would love RAPM, which quantifies individual impact. the margin for error is very small as well given it adjusts for roster lineups in addition to separating teams (e.g. contenders from non-contenders)

RAPM suggests scottie pippen had equal to and/or more impact to the bulls' success than jordan from 1996-98. take what you will from that, but i've seen you repeatedly claim pippen is massively underrated by naysayers - this stat does its best to correct that.
Jordan isnt the greatest ever based solely on what happened in 96-98. His career is the greatest ever. I've always maintained that Pippen and Jordans importance wa about equal. Doesn't mean Jordan isn't a better basketball player.

[aj1987]

Dude. The Heat are nowhere near 500. That's the point. As great as you tout Wade as being, more should be expected. Especially with the Eastern Conference being as bad as it is.
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10910135&postcount=154

[mehyaM24]

Jordan isnt the greatest ever based solely on what happened in 96-98. His career is the greatest ever. I've always maintained that Pippen and Jordans importance wa about equal. Doesn't mean Jordan isn't a better basketball player.
jordan is a more skilled basketball player. the best volume scorer ever. i've never argued otherwise.

in team basketball, though, impact often trumps skills. pippen's defense and leadership were quintessential during the second three peat. period.

[Alan Ogg]

It's on Spo. There's no reason for this team to be below .500 in the East. Whiteside needs to get 20 minutes+ a game.

[aj1987]

jordan is a more skilled basketball player. the best volume scorer ever. i've never argued otherwise.

in team basketball, though, impact often trumps skills. pippen's defense and leadership were quintessential during the second three peat. period.

Are you literally stupid? MJ is arguably the GOAT perimeter defender/scorer. He's an a very good passer as well. He does everything better than Pippen, except rebounding.

[mehyaM24]

Are you literally stupid? MJ is arguably the GOAT perimeter defender/scorer. He's an a very good passer as well. He does everything better than Pippen, except rebounding.
you're arguing with a ghost. did you not read anything in my post? jordan was a more skilled player, and arguably the best volume scorer ever. what exactly do you disagree with?

[97 bulls]

Are you literally stupid? MJ is arguably the GOAT perimeter defender/scorer. He's an a very good passer as well. He does everything better than Pippen, except rebounding.
Im assuming this is directed at me. Did I not say that Jordan is the greatest ever?

Anyhow, again the end result is what you contribute to the team.

[97 bulls]

It's on Spo. There's no reason for this team to be below .500 in the East. Whiteside needs to get 20 minutes+ a game.
I think its their defense.

[aj1987]

Im assuming this is directed at me. Did I not say that Jordan is the greatest ever?

Anyhow, again the end result is what you contribute to the team.
Nope, not you.


you're arguing with a ghost. did you not read anything in my post? jordan was a more skilled player, and arguably the best volume scorer ever. what exactly do you disagree with?
You acting like it's even close is what I have a problem with.


I think its their defense.
You can't play defense the way Spo wants to with this team. Too slow and not enough good defensive players. The guy is too stubborn to adapt.

[mehyaM24]

Nope, not you.


You acting like it's even close is what I have a problem with.
i'm not "acting" like anything. simply pointing out the impact both players brought to their teams isn't me saying jordan wasn't more skilled than pippen.

[Cali Syndicate]

Wade isn't a superstar. Hasn't looked like one for about two, maybe even three seasons now. Just because he has great games here and there doesnt validate being a superstar. He does looks a lot more healthier now than he has been but even on that note, he's still needing to sit out games. His body is really slowing him down, and while he's still a star, at this rate he's barely even holding on to even that.

And as for Bosh...he has never been a superstar, ever. Maybe he was on the fringe at one point, but that's about it, and that was like 4 or 5 seasons ago.

[PsychoBe]

with whiteside now it makes three :applause: