Top 5 most impactful defenders of all timw

[Nowitness]

Bill Walton
Kevin Garnett
Gary Peyton
Patrick Ewing
Kobe Bryant

Any disagreements?

[Jlamb47]

Bill Walton
Kevin Garnett
Gary Peyton
Patrick EwingKobe Bryant
Any disagreements?


I would Replace them 2 with Tim Duncan and Dennis Robman
Even Hakeem or Robinson

[Mass Debator]

Scottie?

[rlsmooth775]

Tony allen >>>> Gary payton on defense

[Mass Debator]

Tony allen >>>> Gary payton on defense
:applause:

[Lebron23]

Bruce Bowen.

[riseagainst]

why is Kobe on here?

[Nowitness]

Tony allen >>>> Gary payton on defense

:facepalm:

Sure, if Rodman was a better rebounder than KG/Duncan.

GP could have made all-stars average 2 PPG against him if he wanted to play atrociously on offence like Tony. Same with KG, he'd average 25 rebounds per if he wanted to average 8 PPG like Rodman.

[Wade's Rings]

You're missing Hakeem and Kobe shouldn't be on that list.

[Nowitness]

Kobe has the most first defensive team selections, he is prolly second to Walton on the list.

[OldSchoolBBall]

lol @ Kobe being mentioned.

[97 bulls]

Bill Walton
Kevin Garnett
Gary Peyton
Patrick Ewing
Kobe Bryant

Any disagreements?
The only disagreement I have is Walton, Ewing, Payton, and Bryant. Other than that, your list is fine.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

TLP doesn't have Duncan on this list? Holy shit. :oldlol:

[WallBe]

Ak47

[PHILA]

Top 5 most impactful defenders

Russell
Dream
Robinson
Duncan
Ewing

[Thorpesaurous]

The word impactfull to me makes me feel like they have to be good enough offensively to warrant being on the floor for big minutes every night. So to me that costs some of the specialist guys.

Ewing was not a great defender. He was very good. And for a short stretch in his youth he was on cusp of great. But once his knees started going he was no longer great.

I have to think Walton was supposed to be Russell. Although Walton was a spectacular defender even in the late period I saw him play when he could barely move. He was just a guy who knew where to be.


Garnett belongs. I'd say Duncan probably does, although he's harder to quantify. Pippen is the single greatest defender I saw in my lifetime, and it's not particularly close in my mind. He would go into finals and defend opposing teams HOF level PGs if need be. Or he could slide onto any elite scoring wing. And he was in the passing lanes, and covered for rim protection they gave up with the spacing bigs they played.

Rodman belongs in the discussion. Although his versatility left him sooner than I think some realize. And I think late Rodman's defensive value is a bit overstated.

You could even talk me into someone like Kiralenko for short stretches.

[andgar923]

Bill Walton
Kevin Garnett
Gary Peyton
Patrick Ewing
Kobe Bryant

Any disagreements?
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[Odinn]

Bill Walton
Kevin Garnett
Gary Peyton
Patrick Ewing
Kobe Bryant

Any disagreements?
None of them would be in my top 5. It's more like "any agreements?" for me.:oldlol: :oldlol:

[Wade's Rings]

Kobe has the most first defensive team selections, he is prolly second to Walton on the list.

He didn't deserve all of them though. I'm not sure about the rest of the players.

[Marchesk]

How Bill Russell isn't at the top of this list is beyond me.

Also, if you're going to throw Payton's name out there, Moncrief deserves a mention.

[k0kakw0rld]

Bill Walton
Kevin Garnett
Gary Peyton
Patrick Ewing
Kobe Bryant

Any disagreements?

Yupp Kobe, massively overrated. Plays defence for 20% of the game.

Top 5 no order

Pippen
Rodman
Payton
Kidd/Stockton
Ben Wallace

[riseagainst]

Yupp Kobe, massively overrated. Plays defence for 20% of the game.

Top 5 no order

Pippen
Rodman
Payton
Kidd/Stockton
Ben Wallace


:biggums:

[HurricaneKid]

Russell


15 posts until we get to Russell while Kobe is mentioned 3x?

WTF is wrong with you ISH?

Throw Ben Wallace on the list.

[HurricaneKid]

FTR, Kobe has been a below avg defender over his career (neg RAPM). That means he isn't a top 1000 defender.

[juju151111]

Russell
Dream
Robinson
Duncan
Ewing
Where is Ben Wallace

[TaLvsCuaL]

Kobe was a good defender but top 5 is laughable.

[Spurs5Rings2014]

People listing guards.

:facepalm

[T_L_P]

No order:

Wallace
Hakeem
Russell
Robinson
Duncan
Garnett

A PG/SG/SF shouldn't be approaching this list. Not even Pippen.

If it's a list contextualised per position, I'd probably add prime AK and Scottie (though I have no idea who to bump).

[chocolatethunder]

Moncrief. Has anyone here even watched basketball before?

[chocolatethunder]

Yupp Kobe, massively overrated. Plays defence for 20% of the game.

Top 5 no order

Pippen
Rodman
Payton
Kidd/Stockton
Ben Wallace
Easily one of the most overrated defenders of all time and certainly on ISH. He was a great rebounder and shot blocker and terrible man defender. Awful at defending the pick and roll and you could see all of his defensive shortcomings on display in international competition. Payton was better than Kidd and Stockton. Stockton was a good man defender when young and later was a good team defender so was Kidd. Payton was on a totally different level than either of them.

[Young X]

Wallace
Garnett
Hakeem
Russell
Robinson
HM: Dwight and Duncan

No perimeter player should really be in the top 5, they don't have the rim protection, defensive rebounding, etc needed to anchor defenses like interior players can. Look at someone like Roy Hibbert turning teams into jump shooting teams or changing their layup attempts at the rim just from his presence; that's more impactful than anything a perimeter defender can do. Vice versa on offense, perimeter players are more important.

[Practice?]

why is Kobe on here?

This.

[chocolatethunder]

Wallace
Garnett
Hakeem
Russell
Robinson
HM: Dwight and Duncan

No perimeter player should really be in the top 5, they don't have the rim protection, defensive rebounding, etc needed to anchor defenses like interior players can. Look at someone like Roy Hibbert turning teams into jump shooting teams or changing their layup attempts at the rim just from his presence; that's more impactful than anything a perimeter defender can do. Vice versa on offense, perimeter players are more important.
Well a good defensive guard like Sidney Moncrief stops the ball from ever getting into the post or funneled to the shot blocker. When you have a defensive guard who can disrupt your offense from the second you inbound the ball, they are quite impactful.

[LAZERUSS]

Wilt is easily the second most dominant defensive force in NBA history, and at his peak, the equal of Russell.

[T_L_P]

Wilt is easily the second greatest most dominant defensive force in NBA history, and at his peak, the equal of Russell.

-At his peak equal to Russell

-Overall easily the greatest

:biggums:

[LAZERUSS]

-At his peak equal to Russell

-Overall easily the greatest

:biggums:

Easily...

THE greatest shot-blocker, and by a huge margin.

THE greatest RIM protector.

And likely the greatest One-on-one defender at the center position in NBA history. Certainly no worse than second.

E.G. A peak Kareem shot about 10% less than his career FG% against Wilt. BTW, a 37-41 year old Kareem not only outscored Hakeem, he outshot him by a .607 to .512 margin.

[chocolatethunder]

Easily...

THE greatest shot-blocker, and by a huge margin.

THE greatest RIM protector.

And likely the greatest One-on-one defender at the center position in NBA history. Certainly no worse than second.

E.G. A peak Kareem shot about 10% less than his career FG% against Wilt. BTW, a 37-41 year old Kareem not only outscored Hakeem, he outshot him by a .607 to .512 margin.
I can't believe that you of all people didn't mention Moncrief.

[PHILA]

Where is Ben Wallace

Not quite at this level, I would also have Thurmond near the top. He may actually be 2nd behind Russell.



Moncrief

:applause:

Outrageous - Charles Barkley (1991)

[I]If I had to name the league's all-time defensive player, a guy who played defense with sheer guts and little else, it would be Sidney Moncrief. Sidney played for the Milwaukee Bucks for what seemed like a hundred years

[T_L_P]

Easily...

THE greatest shot-blocker, and by a huge margin.

THE greatest RIM protector.

And likely the greatest One-on-one defender at the center position in NBA history. Certainly no worse than second.

E.G. A peak Kareem shot about 10% less than his career FG% against Wilt. BTW, a 37-41 year old Kareem not only outscored Hakeem, he outshot him by a .607 to .512 margin.

I'm talking about the wording of your post.

Surely if peak Wilt was only Russell's equal defensively, career Russell was surely better than Wilt?

It's like me saying, "Duncan is easily the greatest player in NBA history, and at his peak he was MJ's equal."

[LAZERUSS]

I'm talking about the wording of your post.

Surely if peak Wilt was only Russell's equal defensively, career Russell was surely better than Wilt?

It's like me saying, "Duncan is easily the greatest player in NBA history, and at his peak he was MJ's equal."

Sorry...and I actually edited right before you posted.

In any case, Wilt has a solid case as the second greatest defensive center in NBA history, and at his peak...as the greatest.

Incidently, in their career H2H's, Wilt actually reduced Russell's FG% considerably more than Russell did Wilt's.

[ralph_i_el]

Kobe has had a HUGE impact on D the past few years.

Unfortunately.... None of it positive.

[ralph_i_el]

Wilt is easily the second most dominant defensive force in NBA history, and at his peak, the equal of Russell.

>29 games of footage
>easily the greatest

Pick one

[rmt]

Kobe has the most first defensive team selections, he is prolly second to Walton on the list.

And how many of those selections are actually deserved and how many based on reputation? Kobe doesn't belong anywhere near a top 5 perimeter defender list, much less top 5 most impactful defender of all time.

Russell
Wilt
B. Wallace
DRob
Duncan/Hakeem

[G0ATbe]

I'd replace Walton/Ewing with Rodman/Pippen. Also, is that list in order? If so, Kobe should be much higher.

[LAZERUSS]

>29 games of footage
>easily the greatest

Pick one

BOTH the VIDEO FOOTAGE...and the STAGGERING amount of statistical evidence which supports the statement.

BTW, there is not 29 full games of video that exist for Wilt. BUT, there certainly exists enough highlights of his amazing defense and shot-blocking. He may have blocked as many shots in the 2% of his career that exists on video, that even some of the game's great shot-blockers had in their entire careers.

BTW, Wilt has a KNOWN 570 career playoff blocked shots...and that is in 80 of his 160 career playoff games (and very little from early in his career, when he likely was blocking far more shots.)

[G0ATbe]

BOTH the VIDEO FOOTAGE...and the STAGGERING amount of statistical evidence which supports the statement.
Try using the eye test more thoroughly.

He was blocking guys as tall as his legs...:facepalm

[riseagainst]

Try using the eye test more thoroughly.

He was blocking guys as tall as his legs...:facepalm


:lol
:roll:

[DatAsh]

Ewing was not a great defender. He was very good. And for a short stretch in his youth he was on cusp of great. But once his knees started going he was no longer great.


Gotta disagree with you here. Ewing was great, one of the best ever.

[LAZERUSS]

Try using the eye test more thoroughly.

He was blocking guys as tall as his legs...:facepalm

Like the TWO Kareem SKY HOOKS that he blocked with 5 seconds that exist on video?

Yep...a 7-2 PEAK Kareem, who would measure about 7-4 today.

[G0ATbe]

Like the TWO Kareem SKY HOOKS that he blocked with 5 seconds that exist on video?

Yep...a 7-2 PEAK Kareem, who would measure about 7-4 today.
Still...those 2 goaltends don't make up for the 1000's he racked up through the little guys:confusedshrug:

[DatAsh]

There's Russell, and then there is everyone else.

Russell's the only guy I know capable of taking a bottom tier defense making them the best defense "13" years in a row. No one else really comes close to that kind of impact on one side of the court - offense or defense.

Guys like Hakeem, Wilt, Robinson, Duncan, Thurmond (healthy)Walton, Garnett are in that second tier. Those are guys that can turn mid tier defenses into top tier defenses consistently.

I personally don't think perimeter guys should even be in the discussion, but I'm sure some will disagree with that.

[salwan]

There's Russell, and then theirs everyone else.

Russell's the only guy I know capable of taking a bottom tier defense making them the best defense "13" years in a row. No one else really comes close to that kind of impact on one side of the court - offense or defense.

Guys like Hakeem, Wilt, Robinson, Duncan, Thurmond (healthy)Walton, Garnett are in that second tier. Those are guys that can turn mid tier defenses into top tier defenses consistently.

I personally don't think perimeter guys should even be in the discussion, but I'm sure some will disagree with that.
:applause: :applause:

[Young X]

Well a good defensive guard like Sidney Moncrief stops the ball from ever getting into the post or funneled to the shot blocker. When you have a defensive guard who can disrupt your offense from the second you inbound the ball, they are quite impactful.True but can he reach the level of defensive impact that Garnett, Wallace, Russell, Hakeem, Wilt (who have anchored some of the greatest defenses in history) can as a 6-3 guard out on the perimeter? If you gave Wallace and Moncrief the same defensive support who's team would be better defensively?

[ArbitraryWater]

TLP doesn't have Duncan on this list? Holy shit. :oldlol:

It's obviously not TLP, stop forcing it.. lame.

[kamil]

Boris Diaw

[AirFederer]

Kobe makes OP's list for his negative impact :roll:

[chocolatethunder]

True but can he reach the level of defensive impact that Garnett, Wallace, Russell, Hakeem, Wilt (who have anchored some of the greatest defenses in history) can as a 6-3 guard out on the perimeter? If you gave Wallace and Moncrief the same defensive support who's team would be better defensively?
Wallace? He's so overrated that he doesn't even belong in this discussion. Not even close.

[chocolatethunder]

[QUOTE=PHILA]Not quite at this level, I would also have Thurmond near the top. He may actually be 2nd behind Russell.




:applause:

Outrageous - Charles Barkley (1991)

[I]If I had to name the league's all-time defensive player, a guy who played defense with sheer guts and little else, it would be Sidney Moncrief. Sidney played for the Milwaukee Bucks for what seemed like a hundred years

[Pushxx]

Russell is by far and away the most impactful defender of all-time. It's not even remotely close.

[Legends66NBA7]

From what I've read about Nate Thurmond, he probably deserves more than 1 consideration here.

[Young X]

Wallace? He's so overrated that he doesn't even belong in this discussion. Not even close.How? He led one of the greatest defenses in modern basketball ('04 Pistons), he won DPOY FOUR TIMES, averaged around 13 rebs/3 blks/1.5 stls in his prime. His teams were consistently playing ridiculously tough defense with him on the floor. He's definitely one of the greatest defenders.

[chocolatethunder]

How? He led one of the greatest defenses in modern basketball ('04 Pistons), he won DPOY FOUR TIMES, averaged around 13 rebs/3 blks/1.5 stls in his prime. His teams were consistently playing ridiculously tough defense with him on the floor. He's definitely one of the greatest defenders.
Because he was a poor man defender and was undersized. You should watch how bad he got exposed in international play. I said he was an awesome rebounder and great weak side shot blocker. He wasn't even close to being in Rodman's league. There's no comparison.

[Nowitness]

Lol at the people saying Kobe isn't a great defender. Give me reasons/stats that prove this and I'll listen (there are none).

[Young X]

Because he was a poor man defender and was undersized. You should watch how bad he got exposed in international play. I said he was an awesome rebounder and great weak side shot blocker. He wasn't even close to being in Rodman's league. There's no comparison.Him being undersized didn't stop his teams from being incredible on defense with him leading them.

And Rodman was nowhere near the team and help defender that Wallace was which is more important than individual defense. Making the other team shoot long jumpers, keeping them from getting easy baskets, and grabbing defense boards > stopping your individual matchup. Wallace couldn't stop Shaq from scoring but look at how he helped make life difficult for the entire Laker team.

[chocolatethunder]

Him being undersized didn't stop his teams from being incredible on defense with him leading them.

And Rodman was nowhere near the team and help defender that Wallace was which is more important than individual defense. Making the other team shoot long jumpers, keeping them from getting easy baskets, and grabbing defense boards > stopping your individual matchup. Wallace couldn't stop Shaq from scoring but look at how he helped make life difficult for the entire Laker team.
Rodman was absolutely better. And wallace got torched on backdoors like crazy. They aren't in the same league.

[tontoz]

:facepalm @ this thread. Dikembe Mutombo won DPOY 4 times in an era of dominant centers and nobody has even mentioned him.

But Kobe has been mentioned over and over....






http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g195/tontoz/abandonthread_zpshrdexpqz.gif (http://s56.photobucket.com/user/tontoz/media/abandonthread_zpshrdexpqz.gif.html)

[juju151111]

Rodman was absolutely better. And wallace got torched on backdoors like crazy. They aren't in the same league.
Stop the BS Ben Wallace was footy four times and all stats show he is top 5 defender ever inhis prime.

[yarrak]

None of them would be in my top 5. It's more like "any agreements?" for me.:oldlol: :oldlol:

Who is in your top 5 odunn?

[Smoke117]

Because he was a poor man defender and was undersized. You should watch how bad he got exposed in international play. I said he was an awesome rebounder and great weak side shot blocker. He wasn't even close to being in Rodman's league. There's no comparison.

You're right there is no comparison...Rodman never had close to the impact Wallace had in his prime.

[chocolatethunder]

You're right there is no comparison...Rodman never had close to the impact Wallace had in his prime.
What a shame, if you were only alive to have seen Rodman in his prime.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Elite shotblocking has way more of an impact than elite post defense, so I'd agree that Wallace > Rodman in terms of defensive impact.

[juju151111]

Why do people like to talk nonsense.
1999 DRAPM
Robinson 6.0
Mutombo 6.0
Bradley 5.4
Mourning 5.3
Ostertag 5.2
Duncan 3.5

2000 DRAPM
Mutombo 6.1
Robinson 5.1
Ostertag 5.0
Bradley 4.9
Mourning 4.9
Duncan 3.5

2001 DRAPM
Wallace 7.6
Bradley 7.5
Mutombo 7.4
Robinson 7.1
Duncan 5.7

2002 DRAPM
Wallace 7.7
Mutombo 6.9
Robinson 6.1
Divac 5.6
Duncan 5.3

2003 DRAPM
Wallace 8.9
Robinson 6.6
Bradley 6.0
Ostertag 5.9
Duncan 5.7

2004 DRAPM
Wallace 9.8
Ratliff 6.8
Duncan 6.3

2005 DRAPM
Wallace 7.8
Mutombo 6.5
Duncan 6.4

2006 DRAPM
Wallace 9.2
Camby 6.2
Duncan 5.9

2007 DRAPM
Camby 6.4
Mutombo 6.1
Wallace 6.0
Garnett 5.9
Dampier 5.2
Duncan 5.2

[rmt]

Him being undersized didn't stop his teams from being incredible on defense with him leading them.

And Rodman was nowhere near the team and help defender that Wallace was which is more important than individual defense. Making the other team shoot long jumpers, keeping them from getting easy baskets, and grabbing defense boards > stopping your individual matchup. Wallace couldn't stop Shaq from scoring but look at how he helped make life difficult for the entire Laker team.

Agreed, and if Pistons had won in 05, I'd vote B. Wallace for FMVP - he was just all over the place making hustle plays. It's no wonder Duncan didn't have a good shooting series with the Rasheed's length and Ben's help defense + McDyess off the bench.

[rmt]

Why do people like to talk nonsense.
1999 DRAPM
Robinson 6.0
Mutombo 6.0
Bradley 5.4
Mourning 5.3
Ostertag 5.2
Duncan 3.5

2000 DRAPM
Mutombo 6.1
Robinson 5.1
Ostertag 5.0
Bradley 4.9
Mourning 4.9
Duncan 3.5

2001 DRAPM
Wallace 7.6
Bradley 7.5
Mutombo 7.4
Robinson 7.1
Duncan 5.7

2002 DRAPM
Wallace 7.7
Mutombo 6.9
Robinson 6.1
Divac 5.6
Duncan 5.3

2003 DRAPM
Wallace 8.9
Robinson 6.6
Bradley 6.0
Ostertag 5.9
Duncan 5.7

2004 DRAPM
Wallace 9.8
Ratliff 6.8
Duncan 6.3

2005 DRAPM
Wallace 7.8
Mutombo 6.5
Duncan 6.4

2006 DRAPM
Wallace 9.2
Camby 6.2
Duncan 5.9

2007 DRAPM
Camby 6.4
Mutombo 6.1
Wallace 6.0
Garnett 5.9
Dampier 5.2
Duncan 5.2

Garnett appears only once on these lists? Well, so much for stats backing up what people claim they're seeing on the court.

[juju151111]

Garnett appears only once on these lists? Well, so much for stats backing up what people claim they're seeing on the court.
Doesn't mean much he was a good defender. Those were just the top ones for the season. Look at how dominant Bogut has been and stacking up blocks, but Duncan is still the overall better defender this season even according to the stat. You have to remember from 98-05 was a great defensive era too. The 90s and early 00s were full of great big man. We are not talking about late 00s here of scrubs. Big man. KG still had a great defense it's just that people were playing at a higher level.

[Nikola_]

harper
jordan
pippen
rodman
olajuwon

[hitmanyr2k]

Elite shotblocking has way more of an impact than elite post defense, so I'd agree that Wallace > Rodman in terms of defensive impact.

They should have kept a stat for charges taken because Rodman was great at that. I think taking a charge is more valuable than a blocked shot. Just because a defender blocks a shot doesn't mean his team gained possession of the ball. Taking a charge is a guaranteed turnover and a foul on the opposing player on top of that.

[CAstill]

A lot of people exposing themselves lol
Some of these list are horrendous.

Russell
Wilt
Thurmond
Hakeem
Jordan/Kobe

I see a lot of people have a problem with Kobe on the list but when he is totally focused on D ala the 2008 Olympics there is none better. In his prime he was a total game changer. Same with Jordan, both him and Kobe>>>Rodman and Pippen on D, they just happened to have more responsibilities.

[T_L_P]

A lot of people exposing themselves lol
Some of these list are horrendous.

Russell
Wilt
Thurmond
Hakeem
Jordan/Kobe

I see a lot of people have a problem with Kobe on the list but when he is totally focused on D ala the 2008 Olympics there is none better. In his prime he was a total game changer. Same with Jordan, both him and Kobe>>>Rodman and Pippen on D, they just happened to have more responsibilities.

So Jordan/Kobe have a bigger impact on their team's defense than Duncan/Robinson/Garnett/Mutombo?

Answer: no, not even close.

[CAstill]

:roll:
Yes and your big man bias is showing. Especially with Duncan's slow footed ass lol

[oarabbus]

:roll:
Yes and your big man bias is showing. Especially with Duncan's slow footed ass lol


:biggums: Duncan is an incredible defender. Is he top 5 all time? I don't know. But he's an all time great on defense no doubt.

Anyway the lack of KG on these lists is disconcerting.

[CAstill]

Yeah he is, but he's not better than the players I listed. KG is good too but not better.

[JebronLames]

Lebron, he can guard 1-6

[T_L_P]

Yeah he is, but he's not better than the players I listed. KG is good too but not better.

You literally just said Kobe has a bigger impact on the defensive end of the floor than David Robinson. :roll:

That's not big man bias. That's common sense.

[hitmanyr2k]

A lot of people exposing themselves lol
Some of these list are horrendous.

Russell
Wilt
Thurmond
Hakeem
Jordan/Kobe

I see a lot of people have a problem with Kobe on the list but when he is totally focused on D ala the 2008 Olympics there is none better. In his prime he was a total game changer. Same with Jordan, both him and Kobe>>>Rodman and Pippen on D, they just happened to have more responsibilities.

http://i.imgur.com/0pwNKjm.gif

I remember Kobe's defensive rating was at Steve Nash levels and that dude was still getting gifted All-Defense first team :oldlol:

[CAstill]

Robinson got lucky he had Duncan at the end of his career. He was going to be remembered as a career loser if it wasn't for him. If you're defense isn't translating to rings, what's the point? Even Rodman clowned him lol.

[Psileas]

Every list that doesn't even list Russell is garbage, but then again, judging by the OP, that was to be expected.
Russell = #1 by far. Everyone else is up for debate.


Still...those 2 goaltends don't make up for the 1000's he racked up through the little guys

More equally expected crap. Wilt has probably blocked Kareem more times than anyone ever. Watch a few videos unrelated to Kobe once in a while, kid. It never hurt anybody.

[chocolatethunder]

Every list that doesn't even list Russell is garbage, but then again, judging by the OP, that was to be expected.
Russell = #1 by far. Everyone else is up for debate.



More equally expected crap. Wilt has probably blocked Kareem more times than anyone ever. Watch a few videos unrelated to Kobe once in a while, kid. It never hurt anybody.
Any list that doesn't have Moncrief on it is crap as well.
Some dude had Ron Harper on his list. He was a solid defender but not an all time great at anything other than dunking when he was in Cleveland.

[LAZERUSS]

Every list that doesn't even list Russell is garbage, but then again, judging by the OP, that was to be expected.
Russell = #1 by far. Everyone else is up for debate.



More equally expected crap. Wilt has probably blocked Kareem more times than anyone ever. Watch a few videos unrelated to Kobe once in a while, kid. It never hurt anybody.

A peak Kareem battled a past-his-prime Wilt in 28 career H2H games. In a known seven H2H's, Wilt blocked 28 of KAJ's shots, including a known sky-hook in their very first game, and two more back-to-back sky-hook blocks on video. I KNOW that he blocked far more sky-hooks than three, but in any case, the overwhelming evidence would suggest from 15-20 just in their known H2H games. As it was, in the known games with blocks, Wilt averaged 4.0 bpg...just against Kareem.

BTW, there is video footage of Kareem's sky-hook being blocked by other's, but in every case, it is still in hands when it was blocked. The two that exist on video have Wilt blocking the skyhook at it's apex.

[pauk]

On a more serious note:

Bill Russell
Hakeem Olajuwon
David Robinson
Dikembe Mutombo
Ben Wallace

honorable mention: Wilt Chamberlain, Dennis Rodman.

Interior D > Perimeter D.

[LAZERUSS]

Wilt's H2H numbers in his LAST season, and at age 36...


Chamberlain, at age 36, and in his LAST season vs the best centers in the league:


Vs. Cowens in 4 H2H's:

Cowens: 31.3 ppg, 19.8 rpg, .454 FG%

Wilt: 14.3 ppg, 14.5 rpg, .588 FG%



vs. Reed in 3 regular season H2H's:

Reed: 12.0 ppg, 10.0 rpg, .471 FG%

Wilt: 6.3 ppg, 23.3 rpg, .529 FG%

vs. Reed in 5 Finals' H2H's:

Reed: 16.4 ppg, 9.2 rpg, .493 FG%

Wilt: 11.6 ppg, 18.6 rpg, .525 FG%


vs. Bellamy in 4 H2H's:

Bellamy: 17.0 ppg, 18.0 rpg ( 2 known games), .400 FG% (2 known game)

Wilt: 9.8 ppg, 20.5 rpg, .593 FG%


vs. Unseld in 4 H2H's:

Unseld: 12.8 ppg, 15.3 rpg, .481 FG%

Wilt: 12.8 ppg, 20.8 rpg, .769 FG%


vs. McAdoo in 4 H2H's:

McAdoo: 16.8 ppg, 8.8 rpg, .450 FG% (3 known games)

Wilt: 20.5 ppg, 21.3 rpg, .850 FG%


vs. Thurmond in 7 regular season H2H's:

Thurmond: 12.3 ppg, 21.6 rpg, .315 FG%

Wilt: 5.1 ppg, 16.6 rpg, .684 FG%

vs. Thurmond in 5 playoff H2H's:

Thurmond: 15.8 ppg, 17.2 rpg, .373 FG%

Wilt: 7.0 ppg, 23.6 rpg, .611 FG%


vs. Lanier in 6 H2H's:

Lanier: 21.2 ppg, 13.4 rpg (5 known games), .374 FG% (5 known games)

Wilt: 19.8 ppg, 16.3 rpg, .764 FG%



vs. Kareem in 6 H2H's:

Kareem: 29.5 ppg, 17.8 rpg, .450 FG%

Wilt: 11.0 ppg, 16.0 rpg, .737 FG%


Oh, and in that LAST season, the Lakers were second in FG% allowed in the regular season, and 1st (by a wide margin) in the post-season.

BTW, Wilt was voted Firs-Team All Defense in his LAST TWO seasons.

[fpliii]

I don't do GOAT lists anymore. Only comment definitively on what I've seen live. The first four are clear cut:

Olajuwon
Garnett
Robinson
Duncan

Though maybe the order isn't. Mutombo should probably be on this list based on rim protection alone, though I'm big on mobility. Big Ben was the full package, but Sheed was very important to those teams as well.

Maybe Mourning/Ewing? If I'm looking at guys who weren't 7ft tall, any of MJ/Pippen/Rodman would qualify. Artest too, and AK47 was a beast.

[pauk]

Want to expand my list, this is a more accurate way to do it i think:

INTERIOR D: (enough said)

Bill Russell
Hakeem Olajuwon
David Robinson
Dikembe Mutombo
Wilt Chamberlain

PERIMETER D: (being able to defend those pesky guards out there better than anybody else, these are guys with the best lateral quickness/anticipation/hands who would just glue on to you even at fullcourt pressure up & down)

Walt Frazier
Gary Payton
Michael Jordan
Sidney Moncrief
Michael Cooper

ALLROUND D: (being able to cover essentially all positions better than anybody else, they were athletic enough to chase the smallest guys and big/physical enough to hold their own against the big dudes, hence these guys were the best overall help defenders)

Dennis Rodman (Pistons)
Scottie Pippen
LeBron James
Kevin Garnett or Andrei Kirilenko
John Havlicek

[LAZERUSS]

And for anyone interested in Wilt's known career H2H's against other HOFers...this includes as much information in every season that exists...

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=332617

[T_L_P]

I don't do GOAT lists anymore. Only comment definitively on what I've seen live. The first four are clear cut:

Olajuwon
Garnett
Robinson
Duncan

Though maybe the order isn't. Mutombo should probably be on this list based on rim protection alone, though I'm big on mobility. Big Ben was the full package, but Sheed was very important to those teams as well.

Maybe Mourning/Ewing? If I'm looking at guys who weren't 7ft tall, any of MJ/Pippen/Rodman would qualify. Artest too, and AK47 was a beast.

Great set of names.

I started watching much later than you (didn't see any of Bulls Jordan), but Garnett, Robinson, Duncan and Wallance are definitely my top four (seen live).

AK47 was the most spectacular to watch. I don't really have perimeter players anywhere near these lists, but AK47 at his peak comes close.

Doug Christie is also an undermentioned defender.

[masonanddixon]

Bobby Jones
Shawn Marion

Those are givens. You fill in the next three.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Bigmen can clearly have more impact on defense than perimeter players, just how it is... 5 most impactful defenders gotta be bigmen, imho.

Going more by peak I'd probably pick (without much thinking):

Russell
Hakeem
Garnett
D-Rob
Wilt/Walton

You also got Mutombo, Wallace, Duncan, Kareem, Cowens, Eaton, Alonzo...
Thurmond is the GOAT m2m post-defender, in my book.

Only non-bigs that I can see "approaching" that list are Moncrief, Rodman (if you don't consider him a big), Bobby Jones (same as for Rodman), Pippen and probably just a very few others...

Bill Russell is clearly the most impactful defender of all-time.


My top3 GOAT defenders by position-

PG:
Payton
Frazier
DJ (peak was more of a SG though)

SG:
Moncrief
Jordan
Cooper

SF:
Pippen
Rodman (overall defensive peak he was more a 3)
Bowen

PF:
Garnett
Duncan
B. Jones (could also be at SF)

C:
Russell
Hakeem
(hard to pick just one here)

[HurricaneKid]

Re: Kobe vs Timmy


:roll:
Yes and your big man bias is showing. Especially with Duncan's slow footed ass lol

The DRAPM gap between Kobe and Timmy is ~3400 points over the course of their careers.

Just stop and think about that number. Its more than Kobe contributed offensively over the course of his career OFFENSIVELY.

I find it appalling that Kobestans could come into a well cited thread like this and spew idiocy. Kobe was a great offensive player. This is not that thread.

[LAZERUSS]

Try using the eye test more thoroughly.

He was blocking guys as tall as his legs...:facepalm

7-2 Artis Gilmore

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1utx7OxiaoU

7-2 Kareem

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwHP04TWOps

Leaping ability...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QF8yJ1J1W7Q

[fpliii]

LAZ - How do you feel about Artest and Kirilenko historically?

[chocolatethunder]

Bigmen can clearly have more impact on defense than perimeter players, just how it is... 5 most impactful defenders gotta be bigmen, imho.

Going more by peak I'd probably pick (without much thinking):

Russell
Hakeem
Garnett
D-Rob
Wilt/Walton

You also got Mutombo, Wallace, Duncan, Kareem, Cowens, Eaton, Alonzo...
Thurmond is the GOAT m2m post-defender, in my book.

Only non-bigs that I can see "approaching" that list are Moncrief, Rodman (if you don't consider him a big), Bobby Jones (same as for Rodman), Pippen and probably just a very few others...

Bill Russell is clearly the most impactful defender of all-time.


My top3 GOAT defenders by position-

PG:
Payton
Frazier
DJ (peak was more of a SG though)

SG:
Moncrief
Jordan
Cooper

SF:
Pippen
Rodman (overall defensive peak he was more a 3)
Bowen

PF:
Garnett
Duncan
B. Jones (could also be at SF)

C:
Russell
Hakeem
(hard to pick just one here)

Excellent post

[chocolatethunder]

Want to expand my list, this is a more accurate way to do it i think:

INTERIOR D: (enough said)

Bill Russell
Hakeem Olajuwon
David Robinson
Dikembe Mutombo
Wilt Chamberlain

PERIMETER D: (being able to defend those pesky guards out there better than anybody else, these are guys with the best lateral quickness/anticipation/hands who would just glue on to you even at fullcourt pressure up & down)

Walt Frazier
Gary Payton
Michael Jordan
Sidney Moncrief
Michael Cooper

ALLROUND D: (being able to cover essentially all positions better than anybody else, they were athletic enough to chase the smallest guys and big/physical enough to hold their own against the big dudes, hence these guys were the best overall help defenders)

Dennis Rodman (Pistons)
Scottie Pippen
LeBron James
Kevin Garnett or Andrei Kirilenko
John Havlicek
great post

[LAZERUSS]

LAZ - How do you feel about Artest and Kirilenko historically?

Obviously exceptional defenders. Kirilenko was a very good shot-blocker in his prime, as well.

I haven't really taken the time to break down perimeter defenders, but Bowen was probably the best I ever saw.

Centers?

Russell (more range than Wilt)
Wilt (Better rim protector, and better one-on-one defender than Russell)

Thurmond (between he and Wilt as the greatest one-on-one defensive centers in NBA history)

Hakeem
Robinson


and a PEAK Kareem (who anchored the best team defenses for four straight years.)

[chocolatethunder]

LAZ - How do you feel about Artest and Kirilenko historically?
I'm not him but I'm 42 and have seen a lot of basketball. I think that Artest was really good for his time but not an all time kind of guy. He was a good all around player. Kirilenko I would rate higher than Artest for his versatility. AK could guard several positions and he was really long. Artest supposedly had a 7'2" wingspan but I feel like he became too bulky and less mobile. Artest was more of a bully defender and AK was a quicker one. AK has a 7'4" wingspan and was really quick. He was a fast jumper and could move laterally and was just really fast. Artest at his best was better offensively. Kirilenko always teased you that he was going to turn the corner offensively and become a star but he never did. Anyway, I think these two were both two of the best of their era and both versatile but I'm not sure that they're at the top of the top all time.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Excellent post


:cheers:

Just from people's opinions (not just here), Bobby Jones is EASILY one of the most underrated defenders ever, if not the most.

I see Moncrief getting more and more recognition though, which is very cool... He's most likely the GOAT m2m guard defender, perimeter at that. And his team D was also great.

[97 bulls]

gotta put in for Pip. In particular his 1995 season. By far and away the greatest defensive season by any perimeter player and on the level of a Center. .....

Led the number two ranked defense in the league.

Led the league in defensive rating.

Led the league in steals.

Got most votes for all defense first team.

Avg over a block a game

And it goes past the stats. Pippen was able to shut down a defense from the perimeter. Just as effective as any Center. How? Because he would hound the PG once the bal.was inbounded, then trap at half court, then roam. By the time the team was ready to run an offensive set, theyd have 7-8 seconds. Or if a teammate was being torched onndefense, he would pick than man up. Look at the job he did on Charles Barkley





http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SGe-vp_l8U

And hes had some of the most memorable defensive games in the playoffs. The game vs Magic Johnson in 91, he shut Penny Hardaway down in 96, Mark Jackson in 98, as well as John Stockton in 98.

He's also arguably the most clutch defensive player in playoff history. The Charles Smith block? That steal to finish off the Jazz in 97.

Any list about alltime perimeter defensive players without Pippen at 1 is a flawd list. And I wouldn't argue nor should it be argued that Pippen should be on an alltime list including centers. He more than holds his own.

[LAZERUSS]

Wilt's defensive impact in the '67 post-season...

Boston: shot .447 as a team during the regular season
Against Philly in the EDF's: .402

Russell: shot .454 during the regular season
Against Wilt in the EDF's: .358


San Francisco: shot .433 as a team during the regular season
Against Philly in the Finals: .386

Thurmond: shot .437 during the regular season
Against Wilt in the Finals: .343

[Roundball_Rock]

Wallace
Garnett
Hakeem
Russell
Robinson
HM: Dwight and Duncan

No perimeter player should really be in the top 5, they don't have the rim protection, defensive rebounding, etc needed to anchor defenses like interior players can. Look at someone like Roy Hibbert turning teams into jump shooting teams or changing their layup attempts at the rim just from his presence; that's more impactful than anything a perimeter defender can do. Vice versa on offense, perimeter players are more important.

Pippen anchored the 95' Bulls to the #2 defense in the league. That is a team which had Kukoc starting at PF ( :roll: ), Longley at C, Armstrong at PG and Harper at SG. Harper was a good defender but the others on the team were average at best. Pippen anchored them and should have been DPOY that year--an award that went to a guy on the #14 defense.


Led the league in defensive rating.

Pippen is the only perimeter player to ever do so. :bowdown:

Also, Pippen's decimation of the Utah offense (the #1 offense) in the 98' Finals is the greatest defensive series by any perimeter player in history imo.

[chocolatethunder]

:cheers:

Just from people's opinions (not just here), Bobby Jones is EASILY one of the most underrated defenders ever, if not the most.

I see Moncrief getting more and more recognition though, which is very cool... He's most likely the GOAT m2m guard defender, perimeter at that. And his team D was also great.

Yeah Bobby Jones was awesome. I was 11 when the Sixers won it with him. They were an awesome team. In reality too young to understand basketball at that age but it was fun to watch nonetheless.