Derrick Rose is not a point guard

[PieceOfFelt]

Rose at this point and time is just an undersized shooting guard with efficiency problems and defensive limitations. He never even runs the Bulls offense these days. His lack of progression as a facilitator is troubling... almost as troubling as his shooting woes after having 2 years to work on it and his pathetic defense.

[Lebron23]

He's a points guard.

[PieceOfFelt]

He's a point guard.

He doesn't play like one. He plays much more like a shooting guard. He looks for his own shot the vast majority of time and does little facilitating.

[Kblaze8855]

Ill repeat what I said about Westbrook:



A pointguards job is to run the offense. To implement the gameplan and make the needed adjustments on the floor.

If the offense is....attack personally...hes doing his job.

If Brooks didnt want Russell doing what he does at the position he would put a stop to it. That or hes lost control of the team. But usually....these points who shoot a lot are doing exactly what they are asked to do. Or at least...given freedom to do.

Which is a coaching issue.

[PieceOfFelt]

Ill repeat what I said about Westbrook:

Rose is the same guy who still struggles mightily on the defensive end even while being coached by a defensive wizard. His lack of progression is his own problem, i.e. lack of effort/lack of basketball IQ. He hasn't shown measurable improvement in facilitating, defense or shooting. This should concern any Bulls/Rose fan.

[Kblaze8855]

Ive never heard anyone who would know question Roses effort. Joakim Noah is perhaps the realest Bull since Oakley...I take his word on matters like that for the most part.

I dont go way up and down with a week of great or bad play. He was murdering the Blazers and Wizards a week or two ago....its a long season. Hes been out for 2 years.

I dont expect him to be at his best nightly. I expect him to help us win in any way he can while he gets back to being himself. We are on pace for 58 wins and have not even clicked on both ends more than a few games.

Im fine thus far.

[navy]

Only think I would say about Rose is that he is chucking his team to slow starts. I would tone down the jumpers.

[bizil]

Rose is a score first PG for sure. But he passes well enough and of course has sick ass handles and explosiveness. So he is a PG, but more of the wave of the new school shoot first kind of PG's. If Rose was 6'5, he would be an SG flat out. But one who could swing to PG and do well there too. But typically, I like my PG to be like a Magic, Big O, or Isiah. Which is a pass first player who is also an alpha dog. But greatness is greatness.

And a healthy Rose and Westbrook for that matter are GREAT PLAYERS!! Size wise, it makes more sense from them to play PG. Unless u have a coach like Larry Brown who moved AI off the ball to play SG. Dallas has a small backcourt with Rondo and Ellis. But I think Carlisle kind of concedes the fact that Monta may be overmatched on defense BUT will get his on the other end scoring.

[PieceOfFelt]

Rose is a score first PG for sure. But he passes well enough and of course has sick ass handles and explosiveness. So he is a PG, but more of the wave of the new school shoot first kind of PG's. If Rose was 6'5, he would be an SG flat out. But one who could swing to PG and do well there too. But typically, I like my PG to be like a Magic, Big O, or Isiah. Which is a pass first player who is also an alpha dog. But greatness is greatness.

And a healthy Rose and Westbrook for that matter are GREAT PLAYERS!! Size wise, it makes more sense from them to play PG. Unless u have a coach like Larry Brown who moved AI off the ball to play SG. Dallas has a small backcourt with Rondo and Ellis. But I think Carlisle kind of concedes the fact that Monta may be overmatched on defense BUT will get his on the other end scoring.


Rose has not been a great player this season... not even close.

[Ncrazyballa]

This criticism of rose is stupid when hes still leading his team to a high playoff seed.

[beastee]

Rose is a score first PG for sure. But he passes well enough and of course has sick ass handles and explosiveness. So he is a PG, but more of the wave of the new school shoot first kind of PG's. If Rose was 6'5, he would be an SG flat out. But one who could swing to PG and do well there too. But typically, I like my PG to be like a Magic, Big O, or Isiah. Which is a pass first player who is also an alpha dog. But greatness is greatness.

And a healthy Rose and Westbrook for that matter are GREAT PLAYERS!! Size wise, it makes more sense from them to play PG. Unless u have a coach like Larry Brown who moved AI off the ball to play SG. Dallas has a small backcourt with Rondo and Ellis. But I think Carlisle kind of concedes the fact that Monta may be overmatched on defense BUT will get his on the other end scoring.
Great post. I said this the other day. The changes in the defensive rules has made this a point guard scoring league. 7 of the top ten PG's are shoot first. Rose when on is unstoppable. The rust is still on this season. People overreact so much.

[PieceOfFelt]

This criticism of rose is stupid when hes still leading his team to a high playoff seed.

He's not leading the ****ing team though. He hasn't been among their 2 best players. What are you just some kiss ass who's afraid of rational criticism?

[Kblaze8855]

I suspect his coach is watching these games and making some decisions.

I heard a team reporter in a pregame a while back say Thibs wanted him to shoot less threes...but more shots. This was early season when he was a bit hesitant. Coach wanted him to attack more...get to the line.

Things are rarely as simple as what fans want to boil them down to.

Watch the sideline now and then...see how often Thibs or an assistant starts urging them to run when Rose gets into the game. Especially Rose and Niko together. Brooks is around 20 points per 36...

The Bulls guards are asked to be aggressive. You will even see Kirk forcing the issue going coast to coast now and then when hes the only guard on the floor.

Its happening too often for me to assume it isnt the plan.

[Kblaze8855]

He's not leading the ****ing team though.

The team has said otherwise...

You think being a leader is having the best month?

If Rose isnt the Bulls leader Joakim Noah is. And neither is having a better year than Jimmy or Pau. Not really the issue though.

[knicksman]

bulls and OKC arent winning with these score first pgs. History have shown that teams with pass first pgs have higher win % than score first pgs

[knicksman]

Just look at what wall did to was. He doesnt have a 2nd option and bulls defense yet he still manage to have the same record as bulls

[PieceOfFelt]

The team has said otherwise...

You think being a leader is having the best month?

If Rose isnt the Bulls leader Joakim Noah is. And neither is having a better year than Jimmy or Pau. Not really the issue though.

What do you expect his teammates to say, "Derrick is playing like garbage"? They like him so they'll back him up whenever they can, especially Noah. Rose has never been a vocal leader like some other star players. He led by being their best player and taking over games consistently. He's had a few strong fourth quarters but overall has been terribly inefficient and inconsistent. There's no case for him being the "leader" of this team right now.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I'm not buying Rose being their "leader" either. Noah and Butler are the soul and grit on this team, at the moment.

Pau Gasol is another guy leading by example, being an exemplary teammate.

[Ncrazyballa]

I'm not buying Rose being their "leader" either. Noah and Butler are the soul and grit on this team, at the moment.

Pau Gasol is another guy leading by example, being an exemplary teammate.

So did you watch the game? noah was a huge liability on defense was non existent on offense. butler was a non factor. it was infact rose and the bench that kept the bulls in the game.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

so did you watch the game?
Relevance?

[Kblaze8855]

If leadership of a group is defined by you and not the group...fine. I dont think thats how it works.

As I said...if its not Rose its Noah.

Leader and...best 30 games...are not the same thing.

There was no case Antione Walker was better than Pierce on the Celtics...anyone who followed them knew Antione was the leader though.

Pau isnt that type...Jimmy doesnt want to be.

Rose and Noah guide things. They are who the team follows...how they approach things on the floor is how the team does it. They get everyone going. They are deferred to.

Just the way it is.

[PieceOfFelt]

If leadership of a group is defined by you and not the group...fine. I dont think thats how it works.

As I said...if its not Rose its Noah.

Leader and...best 30 games...are not the same thing.

There was no case Antione Walker was better than Pierce on the Celtics...anyone who followed them knew Antione was the leader though.

Pau isnt that type...Jimmy doesnt want to be.

Rose and Noah guide things. They are who the team follows...how they approach things on the floor is how the team does it. They get everyone going. They are deferred to.

Just the way it is.

"just the way it is". Lazy ass saying that means nothing. You speak about leadership like it's something concrete that's easily measured. It's not quantifiable. You speaking in absolutes makes you look foolish. Spouting off about this "leadership" from Rose like some meatball caller on sports radio. A real leader either does it vocally or does it with his play or he does both. Rose isn't doing that right now.

[Kblaze8855]

You tell me leadership isnt quantifiable while citing inefficient play as an aspect of measuring who the leader is....and saying dont speak in absolutes while also saying there is no case for an opinion other than your own? Dont see the problem there?

And of course you cant measure leadership.

The leader is who people follow. Even if its off a cliff.

That entire offense defers to Derrick Rose. Maybe it shouldnt...maybe Thibs should come out of time outs and get Pau a look in the post...he doesnt.

They go through Rose. They all...defer to him. And big picture wise...the energy/effort? The "soul" if you will? Its Joakim Noah.

Pau has outplayed him.

Noah is still who they look to.

I do not value your opinion on who Jimmy Butlers leader is...more than Jimmy Butler. Relative to the team stated opinions...and actions on the court...your opinion means little.



“How he practices, how he works, how he approaches things, that’s important for our team, and it’s how you build chemistry. We need him out there in practice being a leader, we need him in games being a leader, and just keep building. That’s what he has to continue to do."

Thibs in a conversation on how they want even more out of him...he came in trying to be one of the guys and work his way back. Hes asked to lead. Told...thats his job.

Im sorry...I dont value your thoughts on the teams leaders more than its head coach and players in question.

Its Rose...or its Noah.

Even if a case can be made it shouldnt be.

Jimmy Butler does not see himself that way. Id like him to. But he doesnt.

From all I hear from players, coaches, and watching the games...

Rose, Noah, and Aaron Brooks seem like the teams leaders. When the people in question confirm that for me...thats enough.

[Bay Area Baller]

At least he avoided those state farm commercials cuz he is damn for sure not an insurance agent. :rant

[Pointguard]

bulls and OKC arent winning with these score first pgs. History have shown that teams with pass first pgs have higher win % than score first pgs
Different times. Tony Parker and Kobe/Lebron (the effective PGs thru usage and assist and decision making on the team) have waaaaay more rings than any type of guard the last 15 years. 13 of the last 15 titles had score first initiators as the primary decision makers.

[Pointguard]

I'm not buying Rose being their "leader" either. Noah and Butler are the soul and grit on this team, at the moment.

Pau Gasol is another guy leading by example, being an exemplary teammate.
Gasol has never been a leader, not in his interest. Butler is considered the team eccentric. Love his energy tho. Rose has stepped back a bit but its still obvious if you watch the games its obvious.

[Mr. Jabbar]

hes a player in the league

[Ncrazyballa]

OP is right, Derrick Rose isnt a point guard, hes a point god.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFRrAM7O1Ko

[themurph]

only a 13 year old could make....

[bizil]

Rose has not been a great player this season... not even close.

No shit SHERLOCK!! When did I ever say that! I love debating the intelligent posters on this site, which there are MANY OF! We may disagree but usually great points are made. And I end up learning something at the end. But DAMN posters like u **** shit up.

Over the course of Rose's career, he's proven he's a great player. A player who redefined the PG position along with Westbrook in terms of explosiveness. He has an MVP in his back pocket, so he's PROVEN he's a great player. The injuries are what's messing him up as of now. Rose at his best and healthy IS a great player! That's the point I was making!

[bizil]

Great post. I said this the other day. The changes in the defensive rules has made this a point guard scoring league. 7 of the top ten PG's are shoot first. Rose when on is unstoppable. The rust is still on this season. People overreact so much.

Well said! The rules changes have allowed the shoot first kind of PG's to really thrive and do what they do best. Back in the 80's, it was the opposite. Most of the top 10 PG's in the league were pass first PG's. Some of which were alpha dog scorers. And of course the game was a lot more physical. Many of these guys today are really SG's in a PG body.

But SG's like Kobe, Wade, and Harden are their team's top passers anyway. They facilitate the offense from the SG spot. So these PG's today are just smaller versions so they play PG due to the size factor. Some guys who thourh similar like an Iverson or Monta Ellis got moved to the SG spot even though they are undersized.

[bizil]

Different times. Tony Parker and Kobe/Lebron (the effective PGs thru usage and assist and decision making on the team) have waaaaay more rings than any type of guard the last 15 years. 13 of the last 15 titles had score first initiators as the primary decision makers.

I agree! I think due to the fact that great pass first PG's are becoming somewhat of a dying breed what u said is the case. In the league today, only CP3, Rondo, and now Wall are the only pass first PG's among the top 10 PG's in the league. So if these three guys don't get a ring (though Rondo already has his as u stated), ALL OF the main passers-facilitators will be of a score first variety. Which was TOTALLY opposite in the 80's and a lot of the 90's. Even in the case of the Bulls, a pass first Pippen I would say was the main facilitator.

And in a sense, I think the influence of Iverson along with the rules changes had a HUGE IMPACT! Iverson showed small score first players can win MVP's, make it to the NBA Finals, and be the most popular player in the league. The only thing is Iverson did it from the SG spot WHILE STILL being his team's top passer and facilitator. So these guys grew up idolizing Iverson BUT they stayed at PG. Or they were SG's in college and got switched to PG due to size.

[GimmeThat]

if you're someone who's consistently looking to pass or i.e. better scoring option, on that first step, second step, and even after you lift off.

you're a PG.


I guess you can also talk about instincts and dribbling around the court whatnot.

but he's a PG from what I've seen during his MVP year.

[97 bulls]

Rose is perfect for this team. His biggest problem is hes fell in love with the three ball. And his percentage says he shouldn't be taking anywhere near as many threes aa he taking. I believe about a third of his FG attempts are from three point range.

And a lot of that reason is that teams are trying to take away his ability to attack the basket. Rose needs to play off Gasol and GET A POST GAME.

[Pointguard]

I agree! I think due to the fact that great pass first PG's are becoming somewhat of a dying breed what u said is the case. In the league today, only CP3, Rondo, and now Wall are the only pass first PG's among the top 10 PG's in the league. So if these three guys don't get a ring (though Rondo already has his as u stated), ALL OF the main passers-facilitators will be of a score first variety. Which was TOTALLY opposite in the 80's and a lot of the 90's. Even in the case of the Bulls, a pass first Pippen I would say was the main facilitator.

And in a sense, I think the influence of Iverson along with the rules changes had a HUGE IMPACT! Iverson showed small score first players can win MVP's, make it to the NBA Finals, and be the most popular player in the league. The only thing is Iverson did it from the SG spot WHILE STILL being his team's top passer and facilitator. So these guys grew up idolizing Iverson BUT they stayed at PG. Or they were SG's in college and got switched to PG due to size.

Exactly! Good points as always. AI had crazy influence. Wade, Rose and Westbrook are guys you can tell easily got their persistent attack style from him. In the future, this guy with a Curry type will be the prototype more than likely if you don't have the full compliment of players to do the new style SA team. Penetrating is the new post game. Rose will likely morph into an attack first, not necessarily score first PG or at least I hope so.

[SCdac]

It's not just AI, Tim Hardaway, etc... but also Parker. Tony Parker was never (until maybe recently) characterized as a pass-first PG because he wasn't... Yet Spurs needed his scoring to be successful, just like Bull's generally need Rose' scoring... Every team is different and requires something different... Parker won his Finals MVP averaging 25 ppg & 3 apg

[beastee]

Rose is perfect for this team. His biggest problem is hes fell in love with the three ball. And his percentage says he shouldn't be taking anywhere near as many threes aa he taking. I believe about a third of his FG attempts are from three point range.

And a lot of that reason is that teams are trying to take away his ability to attack the basket. Rose needs to play off Gasol and GET A POST GAME.

Yeah. His drive pass to Gasol is a thing of beauty. Three defenders crash on him. He is struggling mightily this year and is not an all star, but he still is the right fit for the Bulls when he is aggressive driving. Not sure how it plays out.

[PsychoBe]

tell him to stop shooting three's :facepalm

[bizil]

I just hope Rose can stay healthy and be at least 85% of his normal self. Gasol is great for the Bulls and gives him a true post threat to pass too. Pau is also a great passer who can be very effective with Rose in a give and go game. But I do agree that in the past Rose needed to be very aggressive scoring for the Bulls. But at this point, he doesn't have to be nearly as aggressive.

With Pau and the emergence of Butler, u have two 20 PPG scorers. U also have great outside shooting around too. So Rose can give up the rock more and takeover the game scoring down the stretch. Before HE HAD TO PLAY balls to the wall for the Bulls to be a contender. Now he doesn't have to play that way.

And when the term score first PG comes up, that PG can still be a very good passer. It's just a different way of seeing the game. But I still feel that the guys like Magic, Big O, and Isiah who are pass first BUT can dominate a game scoring are the ideal PG. But that doesn't mean score first PG's can't dominate a game on their level. However, it is interesting to me how the PG position is becoming mainly a combo guard kind of position with a few exceptions.

If this was the 80's or early 90's, some of these score first PG's would ACTUALLY come off the bench. While a guy like Scott Skiles would start over them. Reason why is because Skiles was a pass first PG. Now of course Skiles wouldn't start over the guys like Rose, Westbrook, Lillard, and some others. But Skiles would start over some of the lesser score first PG's currently starting on teams in the NBA. Even if they were ACTUALLY better players than Skiles, they AREN'T a better floor general than Skiles. It was a different game and mentality of what a PG was supposed to be back then.