The best way to build a team, based on empirical evidence [Archive] - Message Board Basketball Forum

3ball

01-11-2015, 09:18 PM

The best way to build a team is to have your #1 option be an off-ball player - this way teammates don't have to sacrifice for the #1 option to get his.

The scoring of dominant bigs like shaq or hakeem restricts teammates - the other 4 players must all position themselves a certain way to get the ball down low, which restricts their movements and freedom.

ditto for ball-dominators like lebron, whose teammates must align themselves appropriately to create bigger driving lanes for him.

the sacrifice teammates must make for these guys to score causes them to routinely underperform, and/or the team's offense as a whole simply underperforms given it's talent... and most importantly, the team is prevented from employing the most optimal, strategically sound offense, which leaves them susceptible to losing to a team that IS employing the best brand of offense.

this is why bird and jordan are several levels above these players, and ALL players - their off-ball scoring did not restrict teammates in anyway, or force teammates to sacrifice in any way - naturally, their teammates had more freedom to play their game and consequently, bird and jordan's teammates never underperformed or lost as the favorite (very rare for all-time greats).

most importantly, bird and jordan's off-ball game enabled their teams to employ the most optimal, strategically sound offenses in the league - consequently, Bird and Jordan's teams WERE those teams employing the best strategy that would BEAT a team like Shaq's, Lebron's or Hakeem's, whose style of play prevents their team from running the best possible brand of offense.
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lilteapot

01-11-2015, 09:20 PM

Somebody make a bingo card for 3ball threads

#number6ix#

01-11-2015, 09:20 PM

No gifs... Fvck yo thread niqqa

Uncle Drew

01-11-2015, 09:23 PM

I'd build around a solid off-ball passer.

kuniva_dAMiGhTy

01-11-2015, 09:26 PM

Nobody sane would pass up on either LeBron, Shaq or Hakeem in a draft because of what some goofy internet poster thinks.

navigation efficiency derp

knicksman

01-11-2015, 09:26 PM

Stop it bro. These dumbass bran stans have no idea beyond stats or MVPs. They have no idea why duncan/russell/magic are winners. All they see is stats and think iverson/marbury/westbrook/robertson are great because of it. Thats how they compare jordan to bran. They have shallow understanding.

305Baller

01-11-2015, 09:29 PM

Kvnzhangyay

01-11-2015, 09:35 PM

Maybe, but the criteria for building a team like OP suggests will never actually happen in reality

Marchesk

01-11-2015, 09:38 PM

I see an argument. Still waiting for the evidence ...

Dengness9

01-11-2015, 09:47 PM

How many off ball passers does a championship team need doe?

Marchesk

01-11-2015, 09:49 PM

How many off ball passers does a championship team need doe?

:roll: :roll: :roll:

KobesFinger

01-11-2015, 09:56 PM

Sure Bird and Jordan played off-ball but they also had stacked ass teams that meant they didn't need to dominate the ball to have a shot. What was the difference between Jordan in 1990 compared to 1991? Did he suddenly become the GOAT in one season?

3ball

01-11-2015, 10:23 PM

I see an argument. Still waiting for the evidence ...
the evidence is the OP's review of events that we see with our own eyes - namely, how teammates are restricted when they have to get the ball to a dominant big or clear the lanes for a ball-dominant player.... and how teammates are not restricted in this way when the #1 option is an off-ball player.

this is factual - do you want data to back this up, or do you understand the game well enough to know that this is what occurs?

and do you need me to show you how Shaq, Hakeem and Lebron's teammates routinely underperformed, and how these guys all lost as the favorite to teams that ran superior offenses.... while Bird and Jordan's teams never did?

or do you know enough about the game and it's history to already know this?

i mean, you let me know: what part of the OP wasn't clear, true, or even common knowledge for that matter?

Fire Colangelo

01-11-2015, 10:25 PM

I like how MJ all of a sudden became one of the GOAT off ball players :oldlol:

3ball

01-11-2015, 10:28 PM

I like how MJ all of a sudden became one of the GOAT off ball players :oldlol:
MJ is the greatest off-ball player of all-time... you apparently don't know much about basketball

ILLsmak

01-11-2015, 10:30 PM

the evidence is the OP's review of events that we see with our own eyes - namely, how teammates are restricted when they have to get the ball to a dominant big or clear the lanes for a ball-dominant player.... and how teammates are not restricted in this way when the #1 option is an off-ball player.

this is factual - do you want data to back this up, or do you understand the game well enough to know that this is what occurs?

and do you need me to show you how Shaq, Hakeem and Lebron's teammates routinely underperformed, and how these guys all lost as the favorite to teams that ran superior offenses.... while Bird and Jordan's teams never did?

or do you know enough about the game and it's history to already know this?

i mean, you let me know: what part of the OP wasn't clear, true, or even common knowledge for that matter?

Shaq n hakeem aren't off ball players? lol.

-Smak

3ball

01-11-2015, 10:39 PM

Shaq n hakeem aren't off ball players? lol.

-Smak
you seem like an intelligent guy... so it seems like you'd already know that getting the ball to a big man on the post is obviously completely different than getting the ball to any other player.

Fire Colangelo

01-11-2015, 10:40 PM

MJ is the greatest off-ball player of all-time... you apparently don't know much about basketball

Look, MJ is the greatest of all time, and I understand what you're trying to argue. But your arguments are stupid as ****.

1. MJ is not the greatest off ball player of all time.
2. Shaq and Hakeem are not ball dominant players.
3. I'd much rather LeBron handle the ball than Mario Chalmers if that's what "playing to teammates' strength" mean.

3ball

01-11-2015, 10:40 PM

but they also had stacked ass teams

If Jordan's team was more stacked than other guys, then the Bulls would not have needed Jordan to put up GOAT scoring numbers, while being 1st Team All-Defense 10 seasons in a row (a record).

but the Bulls needed him to put up 33.6 ppg in the playoffs (#1 all time), and do the same in the Finals (#1 all time).

no one else had to do this... only jordan's team needed him to score that much or be 1st Team All-Defense 10 years in a row... i'm not sure how anyone can argue against this..

Kvnzhangyay

01-11-2015, 10:52 PM

If Jordan's team was more stacked than other guys, then the Bulls would not have needed Jordan to put up GOAT scoring numbers, while being 1st Team All-Defense 10 seasons in a row (a record).

but the Bulls needed him to put up 33.6 ppg in the playoffs (#1 all time), and do the same in the Finals (#1 all time).

no one else had to do this... only jordan's team needed him to score that much or be 1st Team All-Defense 10 years in a row... i'm not sure how anyone can argue against this..

That logic is horrible... your penalizing the Bulls' roster talent level because of MJ's greatness? So that means that 86 celtics were not stacked because Bird had to average 26/10/7?

3ball

01-12-2015, 01:09 AM

That logic is horrible... your penalizing the Bulls' roster talent level because of MJ's greatness? So that means that 86 celtics were not stacked because Bird had to average 26/10/7?
i love larry, but his 25.8 ppg and 6.8 assists in 1986 regular season, is nowhere near 33.4 ppg and 5.7 assists (Jordan's playoff averages)... i'm not sure what would give you the impression that it was.

and that's what i'm talking about - people equating lesser performance with jordan.

if you can't average 33 points and 6 assists in the triangle, than you ain't as good as jordan - which means no one is as good as jordan, because they can't attain a 33 ppg career playoff average in ANY offense, let alone the triangle.
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nba_55

01-12-2015, 01:14 AM

3ball

01-12-2015, 01:33 AM

Where is the evidence?
I say the best way to build a team is to draft a great dominant big man. Evidence: Spurs championships with Duncan, Hakeem championships, Russell championships, Shaq championships,...
Where is yours?
First, let's start with Shaq and Lebron's underachievements (losing as the favorite):

Shaq in 1998, getting swept by Jazz
Shaq in 2004, getting owned by the Pistons

Lebron in High School - 2002 HS State Championship
Lebron in 2004 Olympics
Lebron in 2006 World Games
Lebron in 2009 - Lost to Dwight Howard's Magic
Lebron in 2010 - Quit vs. Celtics
Lebron in 2011 - GOAT Choke vs. Dallas
Lebron in 2014 - GOAT loss vs. Spurs

There is no need to list Hakeem's, since he has too many to mention - his regular season and playoff record doesn't even compare to Shaq or Lebron, let alone Jordan... Infact, in each of Jordan's championship years, Hakeem got smashed by the team Jordan beat in the Finals:

Hakeem got swept by the Lakers in 1991 RD1.. Missed the playoffs in 1992.. swept by the Sonics in 1996.. Lost 4-2 to Utah in 1997 WCF.. Lost 3-2 to Utah in 1998 RD1..

:eek: ... wow, and you guys are saying building around hakeem is better than building around jordan?... clearly, it isn't.

Now I will list Bird and Jordan's Underachievements (losing as the favorite):

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nba_55

01-12-2015, 01:41 AM

First, let's start with Shaq and Lebron's underachievements (losing as the favorite):

Shaq in 1998, getting swept by Jazz
Shaq in 2004, getting owned by the Pistons

Lebron in High School - 2002 HS State Championship
Lebron in 2004 Olympics
Lebron in 2006 World Games
Lebron in 2009 - Lost to Dwight Howard's Magic
Lebron in 2010 - Quit vs. Celtics
Lebron in 2011 - GOAT Choke vs. Dallas
Lebron in 2014 - GOAT loss vs. Spurs

There is no need to list Hakeem's, since he has too many to mention - his regular season and playoff record doesn't even compare to Shaq or Lebron, let alone Jordan... Infact, in each of Jordan's championship years, Hakeem got smashed by the team Jordan beat in the Finals:

Hakeem got swept by the Lakers in 1991 RD1.. Missed the playoffs in 1992.. swept by the Sonics in 1996.. Lost 4-2 to Utah in 1997 WCF.. Lost 3-2 to Utah in 1998 RD1..

:eek: ... wow, and you guys are saying building around hakeem is better than building around jordan?... clearly, it isn't.

Now I will list Bird and Jordan's Underachievements (losing as the favorite):

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I honestly don't get your off-ball scoring shit, could you name some good off-ball scoring players outside of bird and Jodan? And BTW, Bird has dominant big men with him, he actually solidifies my argument.

Marchesk

01-12-2015, 01:41 AM

... wow, and you guys are saying building around hakeem is better than building around jordan?... clearly, it isn't.

Alright well, I'm going to play devil's advocate because I'm a Wilt stan and favor building around a great big over a perimiter player, although Jordan would be one of the few possible exceptions to that.

Hakeem's teams were competitive before Jordan's. They were in the finals battling that all-time great Celtic squad in Olajuwon's second year, in which they took down the Lakers in 5 games. They had the twin towers and young perimiter talent.

Then Sampson has injury issues which shortened his career and there were issues with other players that ended theirs, so Hakeem ends up with a crappy team for a while.

Meanwhile, Jordan has Pippen and Grant emerge along with a great coaching staff who figured out how best to make that work.

So it's a bit unfair to Hakeem. Now let's give Hakeem Drexler early on, and then compare the Rocket's success to the Bulls. Because that's what Mike had in Pippen, after his first few seasons.

You see the difference there? Hakeem has a better team around him early on, but a worse one after that until Jordan's initial retirement.

Crose

01-12-2015, 01:42 AM

- dont draft lebron
- if you draft lebron trade him before free agency so you dont lose everything

Mr.Kite

01-12-2015, 01:45 AM

- dont draft lebron
- if you draft lebron trade him before free agency so you dont lose everything

or find a team that lebron wants to go to and make them your trade partners

tpols

01-12-2015, 01:49 AM

i love larry, but his 25.8 ppg and 6.8 assists in 1986 regular season, is nowhere near 33.4 ppg and 5.7 assists (Jordan's playoff averages)... i'm not sure what would give you the impression that it was.

and that's what i'm talking about - people equating lesser performance with jordan.

if you can't average 33 points and 6 assists in the triangle, than you ain't as good as jordan - which means no one is as good as jordan, because they can't attain a 33 ppg career playoff average in ANY offense, let alone the triangle.
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Kobe averaged 29 ppg and 6 apg which is a lot of volume.. Only a couple points less than mj and his help was prime Shaq. Scoring points and putting up stats doesn't mean your support is weak . it's just one part of the game.. If you don't fulfill the others your team won't win. Mj averaged absurd ppg in the 80s too.. And he always lost. What changed?

Scottie out assisted, out rebounded, and out defended Michael.. Rodman and grant obviously out rebounded and out defended Jordan. MJ essentially was the volume point scorer while they did all the dirty work and contributes more in other facets of the game.

If anything Larry created even more for his teammates than Jordan and massively out rebounded him.. Giving more well rounded impact.

oarabbus

01-12-2015, 01:57 AM

the sacrifice teammates must make for these guys to score causes them to routinely underperform, and/or the team's offense as a whole simply underperforms given it's talent... and most importantly, the team is prevented from employing the most optimal, strategically sound offense, which leaves them susceptible to losing to a team that IS employing the best brand of offense.

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Because when I think Magic Johnson, I think "guy who made his teammates and the entire offense routinely underperform"

3ball

01-12-2015, 02:45 AM

you guys are all crazy.

3ball

01-12-2015, 02:47 AM

Kobe averaged 29 ppg and 6 apg which is a lot of volume.. Only a couple points less than mj and his help was prime Shaq.

29 ppg is materially less than 33 ppg, especially when you consider Jordan's significantly better efficiency.... and kobe only did that one year... his career playoff averages are nowhere NEAR Jordan.... nice cherry-pick though - it still fell way short.

again, people itt try to equate lesser performance with jordan to make their argument... it doesn't make sense... :facepalm ... kobe's playoff numbers are nowhere NEAR jordan's.

Mj averaged absurd ppg in the 80s too.. And he always lost. What changed?

every player needs a requisite level of talent to win in the NBA - no one can do it alone... but the stats prove that jordan did it alone more than any player in history...

whether it's highest ppg, most win shares ever, highest proportion of teams scoring... best intangibles ever (leadership, drive, mental strength) you name it... jordan carried the largest load and had the least help of anyone ever.

Scottie out assisted, out rebounded, and out defended Michael.. Rodman and grant obviously out rebounded and out defended Jordan. MJ essentially was the volume point scorer while they did all the dirty work and contributes more in other facets of the game.

scottie averaged less assists than Jordan in the regular season and playoffs... Jordan was 1st Team All-Defense a record 9 times, including a DPOY.... but keep acting like Scottie ever came close to matching this.

only a scorer as great as Jordan could have his defense overlooked so much by new fans - that's why Flpiii came on here and made a thread saying how underrated Jordan's defense was on this board - Flpiii had seen some stats that said Jordan was a dominant defender, and concluded that he therefore must have been... (as if DPOY shouldn't have given it away.. :rolleyes: )

but Flpiii made the thread like he WAS SURPRISED at the data.. naturally, i cringed and threw up in my mouth a little bit at how ignorant young fans are about the game..
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3ball

01-12-2015, 03:14 AM

Because when I think Magic Johnson, I think "guy who made his teammates and the entire offense routinely underperform"
Out of Magic's entire career, he was the #1 option a total of ONE season - 1987.

So he doesn't apply to this thread... but those Lakers broke all the rules - they had the GOAT center, the GOAT point guard, great coach, long-distance shooting, wing athleticism, wing scoring, and great rebounding/hustle players (yup, they even had the GOAT garbage men)...

they're the most stacked team ever... quite easily.
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fpliii

01-12-2015, 03:20 AM

only a scorer as great as Jordan could have his defense overlooked so much by new fans - that's why Flpiii came on here and made a thread saying how underrated Jordan's defense was on this board - Flpiii had seen some stats that said Jordan was a dominant defender, and concluded that he therefore must have been... (as if DPOY shouldn't have given it away.. :rolleyes: )

but Flpiii made the thread like he WAS SURPRISED at the data.. naturally, i cringed and threw up in my mouth a little bit at how ignorant young fans are about the game..
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1) Okay, we're on good terms, but you're pissing me off. I don't know how old you are, but I'm 28, will be 29 this year. I'm not a "younger" fan. I wasn't 25 from when MJ was drafted, but the vast majority of posters here aren't either. A lot of MJ's biggest fans were also born within months of me.

2) From the FIRST LINE OF MY POST, I said from:

From watching live and going back to look at tape

You want to call me ignorant? Don't refer to me, or respond to me. I don't resort to personal attacks in my post, and will never comment players unless I watch a ton of tape on them and have some sort of data (including stuff I might produce myself from my notes, on how guys succeed in different play-types, and shot charts I've produced).

Understand this, people do not have to agree 100% with your take in every thread. You can't dismiss them as ignorant, or "young", or not watching games because they don't agree with you. It doesn't work that way, like it or not. If you provide detailed, objective analysis, you might change minds. But there's no reason to devolve into name-calling because people see things differently, and just because people feel different, doesn't make their opinions invalid.

tpols

01-12-2015, 03:21 AM

29 ppg is materially less than 33 ppg, especially when you consider Jordan's significantly better efficiency.... and kobe only did that one year... his career playoff averages are nowhere NEAR Jordan.... nice cherry-pick though - it still fell way short.

The point wasn't that Kobe is as good as mj.. I can flip it to Shaq's numbers if you want.

Shaq had to average 30/15 to win. Would anyone say a 25/5/5 Kobe plus good role players isn't great help because Shaq dominated? Of course not.. He had superstar support. Shaq did even more than mj. Almost as much scoring but triple rebounding and of course much better defensive impact as a monster rim defender and paint presence. Still he had great help along with that. As did mj.. Your logic is nonsensical.

whether it's highest ppg, most win shares ever, highest proportion of teams scoring... best intangibles ever (leadership, drive, mental strength) you name it... jordan carried the largest load and had the least help of anyone ever.
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No he didn't. Off the top of my head

Dirk won with less..
Duncan won with less at times(well one time)
Hakeem won with less..
Isaih won with less..

Hell even bird at the beginning of his career won with less while facing GOAT caliber 80s teams.. While mj faced Reggie Miller and Pat Ewing teams that were devoid of talent and had to use muscle ball to compensate.

MJs team featured a player that was a top five superstar without him who contributed elite impact in every aspect of the game outside scoring(and still very good in that respect) . Hustle guys in Rodman and grant to do the dirty paint work, excellent role players and the GOAT coach.

MJ had more help than most superstars to ever play the game.

It's funny how when people say "you can replace Kobe with so and so Vince carter, tmac etc and Lakers still win rings" Well Yea, if you give the Bulls a 25/5/5 caliber player instead of Pete Meyers there a 60+win team and almost certainly make the finals and have a very good shot at a championship as well.

The combination of phil/scottie/grant/Rodman plus clutch shooters is some of the most well rounded high impact help ever.

sundizz

01-12-2015, 03:30 AM

There is truth to what the OP is saying - however, that is why some players are called generational talents.

When Rudy Gay tries to play like a prime Kobe Bryant the results are abysmal. He simply isn't good enough to dictate the offense in a one player specific way.

However, for the "best" players it usually does make sense to tailor the game to fit their needs. As seen with Dwight and Bron this can take them to the finals.

However, a team with a superstar that can also play the right way will usually outperform the pure superstar team. As we saw with the Spurs vs. Miami.

It is why I think Klay is underrated. By himself being the go to guy his stats may improve but his effect on the game would not. He is the perfect offensive player for a team game. His activity causes the other team to move around, get displaced, give up openings etc because of how much attention they need to pay to him even when he doesn't have the ball. That in itself is worth 5 to 10 ppg (same with Korver).

However, the big caveat is that a "predictable" player, like Kobe, also has this impact on the game. His teammates KNOW what he is going to do (shoot the rock) so they adapt to that (e.g., getting back on d, crashing for oboards, or trying to set screens for him). It is not a "fun" way to play hoops, but it is a winning way.

Bron's problem is that his teammates aren't exactly sure what is going to happen a lot. This doesn't matter usually as his talent and overall ability just wins games before it becomes an issue. However, against a principled and solid team it hurts his team a lot. His teammates now have to play a different way (take on more responsibility) than they did all season. It puts them in spots they either can't handle or are not conditioned to handle.

3ball

01-12-2015, 03:30 AM

1) Okay, we're on good terms, but you're pissing me off. I don't know how old you are, but I'm 28, will be 29 this year. I'm not a "younger" fan. I wasn't 25 from when MJ was drafted, but the vast majority of posters here aren't either. A lot of MJ's biggest fans were also born within months of me.

2) From the FIRST LINE OF MY POST, I said from:

You want to call me ignorant? Don't refer to me, or respond to me. I don't resort to personal attacks in my post, and will never comment players unless I watch a ton of tape on them and have some sort of data (including stuff I might produce myself from my notes, on how guys succeed in different play-types, and shot charts I've produced).

Understand this, people do not have to agree 100% with your take in every thread. You can't dismiss them as ignorant, or "young", or not watching games because they don't agree with you. It doesn't work that way, like it or not. If you provide detailed, objective analysis, you might change minds. But there's no reason to devolve into name-calling because people see things differently, and just because people feel different, doesn't make their opinions invalid.
in your thread about jordan's defense, you said something like "we've been looking at some data, and it shows that Jordan was a legitimately dominant player on the defensive end."

so you got the notion that jordan ACTUALLY WAS a dominant defensive player from stats... you didn't know beforehand that he was...

i'm saying you should have, if for nothing else the fact that he got DPOY and the obvious eye-test.

Mr. Jabbar

01-12-2015, 03:30 AM

I like how MJ all of a sudden became one of the GOAT off ball players :oldlol:

:roll:

fpliii

01-12-2015, 03:35 AM

in your thread about jordan's defense, you said something like "we've been looking at some data, and it shows that Jordan was a legitimately dominant player on the defensive end."

so you got the notion that jordan ACTUALLY WAS a dominant defensive player from stats... you didn't know beforehand that he was...

i'm saying you should have, if for nothing else the fact that he got DPOY and the obvious eye-test.
Dude here's the thread:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=354464

The OP hasn't been edited once, and it's months old. Here is my first paragraph:

From watching live and going back to look at tape, the guy never slacked off, and didn't really try to save energy by giving less than 100% effort. We're getting more and more data from the 90s, and the on/off numbers seem to paint him as a legitimately dominant player on that end.

Watching tape (and I don't watch 1-2 games, I won't comment on a player until I've seen most of his playoff run, and I'll try to find regular season games, but it's tougher to find them), and remembering watching live IS the eye test.

The DPOY is meaningless to me though. I think he's the GOAT guard defender, but that has no place in the discussion. Camby won a DPOY one season, and he's not the worst selection.

I base my evaluations on watching as much tape as possible, and looking at data. You need both qualitative and quantitative information to make informed decisions.

Milbuck

01-12-2015, 03:36 AM

jordan carried the largest load and had the least help of anyone ever.

Except that he didn't.

navy

01-12-2015, 03:37 AM

Im waiting for this empirical evidence.

3ball

01-12-2015, 03:47 AM

Shaq had to average 30/15 to win. Would anyone say a 25/5/5 Kobe plus good role players isn't great help because Shaq dominated? Of course not.. He had superstar support. Shaq did even more than mj.

exactly - and why did shaq need more help than Jordan?

because the triangle didn't run as well with him as the focal point, as it did with jordan as the focal point.

this is a fact - just look at the team ORtg's of jordan's bulls compared to shaq's lakers - jordan's teams' offenses crush shaq's, yet jordan had less supporting help.

While mj faced Reggie Miller and Pat Ewing teams that were devoid of talent and had to use muscle ball to compensate.

that's why Ewing's Knicks snap-made the Finals both times Jordan retired, in 1994 and 1999... :rolleyes:

that's just one example - Jordan faced the most championship-level competition of any team since the 80's teams.

Jordan beat Reggie Miller's Pacers in 1998, and that team made the Finals in 2000.

Jordan SWEPT Shaq and Penny's stacked Magic team, who were obviously far superior to the Hibbert and George Pacers that took Lebron 7 games.

Well Yea, if you give the Bulls a 25/5/5 caliber player instead of Pete Meyers there a 60+win team and almost certainly make the finals and have a very good shot at a championship as well.

again - try to keep a straight face while you say 5 = 8.... 25/5/5 is NOWHERE NEAR 34/6/5... 25 ppg is literally 36% less than 34 ppg.. on worse efficiency... :facepalm

we know the Bulls needed 33.6 ppg in the playoffs and 33.6 ppg in the Finals to win the 6 rings... AND we know it had to be done in the triangle... no one in history has averaged that much in ANY offense, let alone the triangle.

fpliii

01-12-2015, 03:50 AM

Anyhow, I hope my response makes sense 3ball. I'm heavily involved in math/stats/analytics based on my job and interests, and I've been playing and watching basketball all my life. I can't analyze players or teams without both watching a lot of tape, and having some data. If you disagree, that's fine with me.

That being said, I don't know how I feel about the specifics, but I have no problem with your premise, and I've expressed this in the past. MJ and Bird are the two GOAT offensive players due to effectiveness, versatility, and the fact that they didn't need to dominate the ball. So I agree in that regard.

navy

01-12-2015, 03:55 AM

Just curious. Why did Bird lose 7 times with homecourt advantage if he was so optimal? Need empirical evidence as well.

fpliii

01-12-2015, 03:56 AM

Just curious. Why did Bird lose 7 times with homecourt advantage if he was so optimal? Need empirical evidence as well.
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=364194

The 80s East was tough as hell.

tpols

01-12-2015, 03:57 AM

The Bulls were one game away from the ecf without jordan... If they had even mitch Richmond in 94 they are winning the title. 25/5/5 would be more than enough on top of peak scottie grant and bj all being all stars.

You keep bringing up ppg, and have the balls to say mj made his teammates better than Shaq did when shaq

A) drew more defensive attention

and

B) MJs teammates had CAREER years without him.. While Wade and Kobe arguably had their best playoff runs ever next to Shaq (01 and 06)

Teams rebound, score, pass, and defend. Rodman/grant/pippen were all elite in 3 out of 4 aspects of the game. Like goat level elite. That's impact. Jordan was goat level scoring but I don't put goat scoring over goat re ounce ing or goat defending.

You need all four aspects from your team covered to win. Mj covered one of them.. The most marketable one, and his teammates largely covered the other three.

navy

01-12-2015, 04:04 AM

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=364194

The 80s East was tough as hell.
7 times though? That's not optimal at all. 3ball isnt excusing anyone else like that.

bdreason

01-12-2015, 04:05 AM

MJ tended to dominate the ball. Someone post his usage rate. I'm sure it declined as his career progressed, but so does every great players usage rate when trying to win a title. It takes a great TEAM to win an NBA championship.

I don't think being able to score off-the-ball is all that important, but great players know how to contribute when they aren't scoring. Shaq wasn't a great off-the-ball scorer, but he was an elite defender and passer for the position.

3ball

01-12-2015, 04:11 AM

Dude here's the thread:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=354464

The OP hasn't been edited once, and it's months old. Here is my first paragraph:

From watching live and going back to look at tape, the guy never slacked off, and didn't really try to save energy by giving less than 100% effort. We're getting more and more data from the 90s, and the on/off numbers seem to paint him as a legitimately dominant player on that end.

there it is - you are using the data to tell you he was a dominant defender.

without that data, you wouldn't post the thread correcting everyone and saying how underrated his defense is on "this board".... you would have allowed him to continue being underrated on this board.

The DPOY is meaningless to me though. I think he's the GOAT guard defender, but that has no place in the discussion. Camby won a DPOY one season, and he's not the worst selection.

okay... i see you're just making up your own rules as you go along now.

the DPOY almost always goes to a big man... guards almost never get DPOY, so it's significant when they are great enough to break the norm, which is always hard to do...

in this case, they had to convince 124 of the most prominent media members that they were a better defender than all the bigs the media NORMALLY gives it to.

but keep making up your own rules and revising history you weren't there to see, just like when you tried to say hakeem was better than jordan in 1993.

fpliii

01-12-2015, 04:21 AM

without that data, you wouldn't post the thread correcting everyone and saying how underrated his defense is on "this board"
Of course not. I would be asinine to draw conclusions without both qualitative and quantitative information.

the DPOY almost always goes to a big man... guards almost never get DPOY, so it's significant when they do because they had to convince 124 of the most prominent media members that they were a better defender than all the bigs the media NORMALLY gives it to.
The award was founded in 82-83. MJ won in 87-88, its 6th year. The first six winners, in order:

82-83 Sidney Moncrief - G
83-84 Sidney Moncrief - G
84-85 Mark Eaton - C
85-86 Alvin Robertson - G
86-87 Michael Cooper - G
87-88 Michael Jordan - G

So, MJ was the 5th guard winner out of the award's first 6 awardees. A lot of convincing, eh?

Rodman also won the next two, while in Detroit, which was when he guarded primarily perimeter players.

but keep making up your own rules and revising history you weren't there to see, just like when you tried to say hakeem was better than jordan in 1993.
I'm not history, I'm making my own uninformed decisions. Finally, you can say as many times as you want that I wasn't there to see MJ/Hakeem in 1993, but it won't be any more true. You can say I was *too young* to analyze basketball at the time like you did in the other thread, but you can't say I wasn't there. You also can't tell me how many games of both I've seen from that season.

navy

01-12-2015, 04:25 AM

Of course not. I would be asinine to draw conclusions without both qualitative and quantitative information.

The award was founded in 82-83. MJ won in 87-88, its 6th year. The first six winners, in order:

82-83 Sidney Moncrief - G
83-84 Sidney Moncrief - G
84-85 Mark Eaton - C
85-86 Alvin Robertson - G
86-87 Michael Cooper - G
87-88 Michael Jordan - G

So, MJ was the 5th guard winner out of the award's first 6 awardees. A lot of convincing, eh?

Rodman also won the next two, while in Detroit, which was when he guarded primarily perimeter players.

I'm not history, I'm making my own uninformed decisions. Finally, you can say as many times as you want that I wasn't there to see MJ/Hakeem in 1993, but it won't be any more true. You can say I was *too young* to analyze basketball at the time like you did in the other thread, but you can't say I wasn't there. You also can't tell me how many games of both I've seen from that season.
Damn. 3ball please respond. :biggums:

When did the award become a big man award, fpliii?

3ball

01-12-2015, 04:25 AM

The Bulls were one game away from the ecf without jordan... If they had even mitch Richmond in 94 they are winning the title. 25/5/5 would be more than enough on top of peak scottie grant and bj all being all stars.

your argument rests on selling the notion that 25/5/5 is just as good in the triangle as 34/6/5 on better efficiency.

34/6/5 plus all the intangibles turned a 2nd round exit team into the greatest team of all time.

25/5/5 isn't coming anywhere near that.

3ball

01-12-2015, 04:35 AM

Of course not. I would be asinine to draw conclusions without both qualitative and quantitative information.

The award was founded in 82-83. MJ won in 87-88, its 6th year. The first six winners, in order:

82-83 Sidney Moncrief - G
83-84 Sidney Moncrief - G
84-85 Mark Eaton - C
85-86 Alvin Robertson - G
86-87 Michael Cooper - G
87-88 Michael Jordan - G

So, MJ was the 5th guard winner out of the award's first 6 awardees. A lot of convincing, eh?

Rodman also won the next two, while in Detroit, which was when he guarded primarily perimeter players.

so there happened to be 2 or 3 extra all-time perimeter defenders in the league at that time, just like there were a few extra, great big men during that time.

just the fact that as a stats expert of some kind, you would try to post this as a legitimate argument, shows how disingenuous you are on this and likely other hoops topics as well.

makes me think you are boxed in a corner, and are now resorting to arguments you KNOW are garbage.
.

Milbuck

01-12-2015, 04:39 AM

so there happened to be 2 or 3 extra all-time perimeter defenders in the league at that time, just like there were a few extra, great big men during that time.

just the fact that as a stats expert of some kind, you would try to post this as a legitimate argument, shows how disingenuous you are on this and likely other hoops topics as well.

makes me think you are boxed in a corner, and are now resorting to arguments you KNOW are garbage.
The **** are you even talking about? :oldlol:

Fpliii's post is entirely relevant and shits on your argument. You said the DPOY award was mostly given out to big men and guards rarely get it......and he proved you wrong with irrefutable evidence.

Fire Colangelo

01-12-2015, 04:44 AM

your argument rests on selling the notion that 25/5/5 is just as good in the triangle as 34/6/5 on better efficiency.

34/6/5 plus all the intangibles turned a 2nd round exit team into the greatest team of all time.

25/5/5 isn't coming anywhere near that.

Lets pretend Rodman wasnt on the team in 96, its not like he helped.

If Jordan makes his teammates so much better, why do they go on to average career high stats and shoot a better % without him while losing only 2 games less?

"I thought of myself first, the team second. I always wanted my teams to be successful. But I wanted to be the main cause." Quoted from MJ himself. Is that the mentality of someone that makes his teammates better?

Magic on the other hand, made his teammates so much more efficient when he was on the floor running the offense. If you watch Magic, you could tell he knows exactly where his teammates' best shots are. And if they arent there, he'll throw the ball so that they can get there if they hustled a bit.

Doug Collins on why the Bulls had trouble running in the late 1980s. "Do you know who's the biggest obstacle to us running? Michael Jordan, that's who. He won't let go of the ball."

That was the same year where MJ tried to play PG for 13 games, and put up triple doubles in 11 of them. What you fail to show is that the Bulls actially suffered a 5 game losing streak amongst those 11 triple doubles. How very optimal. Not to mention MJ was literally checking the stats sheets every chance he had to make sure he had his stats.

LeBron was in a similar situation in 2010, and was forced to play PG for 13 games as Mo Williams was injured. He ended up averaging 10+ assists and led his team to a 12 game winning streak. See the difference?

MJ is a good defender, especially in his younger years. But his all defense awards starting from 96 are basically Kobe awards. MJ wasnt quick enough to guard smaller faster guards - the likes of iverson, stoudemire, etc frequently gave him trouble and Pippen had to switch on to them. And the bigger guards like Clyde often gave MJ trouble in the post.

3ball

01-12-2015, 04:48 AM

The **** are you even talking about? :oldlol:

Fpliii's post is entirely relevant and shits on your argument. You said the DPOY award was mostly given out to big men and guards rarely get it......and he proved you wrong with irrefutable evidence.

do you know the history of the award?... the bolded are big men.

2013-14 Joakim Noah
2012-13 Marc Gasol
2011-12 Tyson Chandler
2010-11 Dwight Howard
2009-10 Dwight Howard
2008-09 Dwight Howard
2007-08 Kevin Garnett
2006-07 Marcus Camby
2005-06 Ben Wallace
2004-05 Ben Wallace
2003-04 Ron Artest
2002-03 Ben Wallace
2001-02 Ben Wallace
2000-01 Dikembe Mutombo
1999-00 Alonzo Mourning
1998-99 Alonzo Mourning
1997-98 Dikembe Mutombo
1996-97 Dikembe Mutombo
1995-96 Gary Payton
1994-95 Dikembe Mutombo
1993-94 Hakeem Olajuwon
1992-93 Hakeem Olajuwon
1991-92 David Robinson
1990-91 Dennis Rodman
1989-90 Dennis Rodman
1988-89 Mark Eaton
1987-88 Michael Jordan
1986-87 Michael Cooper
1985-86 Alvin Robertson
1984-85 Mark Eaton
1983-84 Sidney Moncrief
1982-83 Sidney Moncrief

again, there happened to be a few extra all-time perimeter defenders in the early-mid 80's, but that's obviously an anomaly, and a stats expert should know to not even bother try to make a point about it.. just like it's an anomaly that there were a few extra, all-time big men in the 80's too... the 80's were the shit..

Milbuck

01-12-2015, 05:00 AM

do you know the history of the award?... the bolded are big men.

2013-14 Joakim Noah
2012-13 Marc Gasol
2011-12 Tyson Chandler
2010-11 Dwight Howard
2009-10 Dwight Howard
2008-09 Dwight Howard
2007-08 Kevin Garnett
2006-07 Marcus Camby
2005-06 Ben Wallace
2004-05 Ben Wallace
2003-04 Ron Artest
2002-03 Ben Wallace
2001-02 Ben Wallace
2000-01 Dikembe Mutombo
1999-00 Alonzo Mourning
1998-99 Alonzo Mourning
1997-98 Dikembe Mutombo
1996-97 Dikembe Mutombo
1995-96 Gary Payton
1994-95 Dikembe Mutombo
1993-94 Hakeem Olajuwon
1992-93 Hakeem Olajuwon
1991-92 David Robinson
1990-91 Dennis Rodman
1989-90 Dennis Rodman
1988-89 Mark Eaton
1987-88 Michael Jordan
1986-87 Michael Cooper
1985-86 Alvin Robertson
1984-85 Mark Eaton
1983-84 Sidney Moncrief
1982-83 Sidney Moncrief

again, there happened to be a few extra all-time perimeter defenders in the early-mid 80's, but that's obviously an anomaly, and a stats expert should know to not even bother try to make a point about it.. just like it's an anomaly that there were a few extra, all-time big men in the 80's too... the 80's were the shit..
Nice effort. Fpliii sonned you. You said guards rarely got the award, when literally 4 of the 5 DPOYs before Jordan were guards.

3ball

01-12-2015, 05:26 AM

Nice effort. Fpliii sonned you. You said guards rarely got the award, when literally 4 of the 5 DPOYs before Jordan were guards.
flpiii is disingenuous in his basketball arguments - that's all his post demonstrated... but i already knew that from long time.

24 out of the 32 DPOY awards were won by big men, and jordan was good enough to be one of the few non-bigs to win one.

Milbuck

01-12-2015, 05:32 AM

flpiii is disingenuous in his basketball arguments - that's all his post demonstrated... but i already knew that from long time.

24 out of the 32 DPOY awards were won by big men, and jordan was good enough to be one of the few non-bigs to win one.
4 of the 5 DPOYs before Jordan were guards. Fpliii's argument > yours.

3ball

01-12-2015, 05:43 AM

3ball

01-12-2015, 05:44 AM

4 of the 5 DPOYs before Jordan were guards. Fpliii's argument > yours.
haha - group Jordan in there with the greatest perimeter defenders of all time - the only non-bigs to win a DPOY:

Gary Payton, Sidney Moncrief, Alvin Robertson, Michael Cooper, Ron Artest, Dennis Rodman, and.... wait for it.... Michael Jordan.

oooohweee that's some lineup of defenders.. GOAT defenders... :pimp:

ofc, only one of them is also the GOAT offensive player.
.

3ball

01-12-2015, 05:44 AM

If Jordan makes his teammates so much better, why do they go on to average career high stats and shoot a better % without him while losing only 2 games less?

it's not just two games - the bulls were an ordinary 2nd round exit team without jordan, and were the greatest team of all time WITH jordan.

i'm not sure how anyone can continue dismissing this fact over and over - it's the only fact that matters.

there is a far bigger gap between 2nd round exit team and 3-peat champion, than a lottery team and the conference finals... forget the conference finals, i'd rather have the guy that can take a 2nd round team and make them the greatest team of all time, and a two-time, 3-peat champion, which only jordan could do.

Doug Collins on why the Bulls had trouble running in the late 1980s. "Do you know who's the biggest obstacle to us running? Michael Jordan, that's who. He won't let go of the ball."

i love doug... man i love that guy... that was an off-hand comment he didn't mean, trust me.. now here's something things he REALLY meant:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIY_4vIxGEE&t=22m25s... :pimp:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nl7lSV6kcQI&t=2m51s... :bowdown:

:confusedshrug:

That was the same year where MJ tried to play PG for 13 games, and put up triple doubles in 11 of them.

LeBron was in a similar situation in 2010, and was forced to play PG for 13 games as Mo Williams was injured. He ended up averaging 10+ assists and led his team to a 12 game winning streak. See the difference?

jordan played point guard for 24 games, not 13 (http://ballislife.com/michael-jordan-could-of-been-the-best-point-guard-ever-want-proof/), so you are once again comparing inferior performance to jordan's.

also, who cares about some random 13-game stretch for lebron - he's played point guard his entire career - the NBA's new tracking data (http://stats.nba.com/tracking/#!/player/possessions/?sort=TOP&dir=1) shows that he dominates the ball more than many point guards today, including the best PG in the league stephen curry.

he even dominates the ball more than kyrie irving this year and mario chalmers last year - certainly, if you dominate the ball the most on your own team, you are the team's point guard.... so he doesn't need a random, 13-game stretch to show his worth at point guard - he's been a point guard his whole career, so just look at his career stats to see his performance at PG.

But his all defense awards starting from 96 are basically Kobe awards. MJ wasnt quick enough to guard smaller faster guards - the likes of iverson, stoudemire, etc frequently gave him trouble and Pippen had to switch on to them.

this is pure poppycock and sheer falsehoods - jordan recorded the highest plus-minus EVER recorded in 1996, and he even led the league in RAPM.

MJ's defense from 1996 to 1998 was exceptional - iverson concurs, and said this about putting his best move on jordan: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLhI9cgsO4c&t=0m40s... :bowdown:

Marchesk

01-12-2015, 05:51 AM

2nd round team turns into a two-time, 3-peat champion... no one in the history of the game has added that much to a team.

Well he is considered #1 by a most people today. But what would the 60s Celtics have been without Russell? Same kind of team as Bulls without MJ that first season?

SexSymbol

01-12-2015, 06:25 AM

Jordan wasn't as much of an off-ball player as you guys make it out to be.

3ball

01-12-2015, 06:32 AM

Jordan wasn't as much of an off-ball player as you guys make it out to be.
he was really ONLY an off-ball player - other than the 24-game stretch where he played point guard, he scored 75% or more of his points off-ball, many times 100%.

like, i can post hundreds of games on here where he scores all of his points playing off-ball... or he scores all of his points off-ball, except for 1 FG or something negligible like that.

i mean, i don't want to just post one game - it's ALL his games.... where to start

Uncle Drew

01-12-2015, 06:33 AM

Jordan wasn't as much of an off-ball player as you guys make it out to be.
Jordan was an extraordinary off-ball passer.

Overdrive

01-12-2015, 07:07 AM

he was really ONLY an off-ball player - other than the 24-game stretch where he played point guard, he scored 75% or more of his points off-ball, many times 100%.

like, i can post hundreds of games on here where he scores all of his points playing off-ball... or he scores all of his points off-ball, except for 1 FG or something negligible like that.

i mean, i don't want to just post one game - it's ALL his games.... where to start

WTF are you talking? Jordan got the ball early in the shotclock to create drives(young) or post ups(old). You're acting like he was running around screens like Reggie - that's off ball game - when he never did. Is Melo an off ball player for just because he doesn't dribble the ball upcourt?

Maybe MJ goat spot up shooter for you, too?

About the DPOY: Doesn't matter what happened afterwards, when Jordan got his it was common for guards to get it. In this era Jordan would have a hard time getting one either.

blablabla

01-12-2015, 07:24 AM

jordan takes 2nd round teams and turns them into the greatest team of all time.

a 2nd round team turns into a two-time, 3-peat champion... no one in the history of the game has added that much to a team.
Due to the addition of Larry Bird the Celtics won 32 games more than the year before, not to mention that the 1996 Bulls also added one of the greatest Rebounders and Defenders to the squad

3ball

01-12-2015, 07:33 AM

You're acting like he was running around screens like Reggie - that's off ball game - which he never did.

you have a misunderstanding about what off-ball play is... it's not just reggie miller stuff - which jordan actually did a ton of anyway.

but it's also catching it on the wing, and making a quick move out of the triple-threat (in GIF below)... since you are unaware of what off-ball play actually entails, i'm guessing you don't know what the triple-threat position is - but making moves out of the triple-threat position this is what jordan did mostly, along with the reggie miller stuff, and quick post moves - and he did all these things EARLY in his career - he didn't just post up late in his career.

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/a9a532eed8e9765b32f62c10e401918d.gif

but it sounds like you haven't watched jordan at all, except the few common highlights that they play on tv or commercials or something like that.

About the DPOY: Doesn't matter what happened afterwards, when Jordan got his it was common for guards to get it. In this era Jordan would have a hard time getting one either.

how do you know it was common for guards to get it - what proof do you have of that?

you are literally making that up.

Overdrive

01-12-2015, 08:00 AM

you have a misunderstanding about what off-ball play is... it's not just reggie miller stuff - which jordan actually did a ton of anyway.

but it's also catching it on the wing, and making a quick move out of the triple-threat (in GIF below)... since you are unaware of what off-ball play actually entails, i'm guessing you don't know what the triple-threat position is - but making moves out of the triple-threat position this is what jordan did mostly, along with the reggie miller stuff, and quick post moves - and he did all these things EARLY in his career - he didn't just post up late in his career.

[GIF]

but it sounds like you haven't watched jordan at all, except the few common highlights that they play on tv or commercials or something like that.

I know very well, what the triple-threat means, but you mistake that for off ball play - TT creates exactly what the PG can do with a live ball. Off ball means you do most your work without the ball to get in position to score immediately off the pass. A drive is optional. The gif totally proves what I said. The Bulls gave the ball to Jordan early in the shot clock to create. For you off ball means not being the guy who brings the ball up court which is ridiculous..

I watched 2nd three peat Jordan live and enough peak & 80s MJ on reruns & tape.

how do you know it was common for guards to get it - what proof do you have of that?

you are literally making that up.

Ummm the proof is that the only non guard DPoY before Jordan is the single season block leader in NBA history?

SexSymbol

01-12-2015, 08:10 AM

3ball

01-12-2015, 08:37 AM

Not true, he had the ball just a little bit less than Kobe does on daily basis.

One of a Kind, GOAT Off-Ball Play:

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Jordan_Drop_Step_Reverse_on_Vs_8e8f88c095881b6a85b a3f8166d38f88.gif

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Jordan_Ridiculous_vs_Knicks_3106ba32859a8e178352db 0a81e442cb.gif

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Jordan_upfake_baseline_spin_ha_1c67b79b5d1df94cd23 9d290b3690a33.gif

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/6dd6658fd961d08a6552298464d00e14.gif

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Jordan_drop_step_vs_bullets_cc366afc62cd900f934c8d f929b61549.gif

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/b1eb1512696c0f52ea66959ef92cfaa8.gif

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/drib_pullup_hangtime_vs_piston_410f7323989d082f005 198b9a50d460c.gif

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Jordan_Much_Elevation_on_doubl_5e7983db33638ec7592 3fbd6ec57675a.gif

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Jordan_best_hangtime_probably__86e032ab3379ef21ee0 7d7a493c922cc.gif

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/f257682cd9973e020ff4ffacd6166a98.gif

KobesFinger

01-12-2015, 09:15 AM

Rip Hamilton? Kevin Durant? Ray Allen? Reggie Miller? Dirk Nowitzki? All great off-ball players but only 4 rings between them, and only one as the main guy.

In your first gif he dribbles into the paint, passes it and gets it back and thats off-ball? In a few of the others he posts up and makes a quick move. Is that not what Shaq and Hakeem also did when the opportunity presented itself? In a couple of them it doesn't show whether Jordan had the ball before or whether he was passed and just did a lay-up. The only ones there that were truly off-ball was the the lay-up against LA and the one below it

kshutts1

01-12-2015, 09:24 AM

I'm not disputing that Jordan was great playing off-ball basketball... but I think 3ball and I have very different definitions as to what "off-ball" actually is.

3ball

01-12-2015, 09:29 AM

Rip Hamilton? Kevin Durant? Ray Allen? Reggie Miller? Dirk Nowitzki? All great off-ball players but only 2 rings between them, and only one as the main guy.

In your first gif he dribbles into the paint, passes it and gets it back and thats off-ball?

In a few of the others he posts up and makes a quick move. Is that not what Shaq and Hakeem also did when the opportunity presented itself?

In a couple of them it doesn't show whether Jordan had the ball before or whether he was passed and just did a lay-up. The only ones there that were truly off-ball was the the lay-up against LA and the one below it
go watch some jordan on youtube... seriously bro... it's so obvious that you haven't watched him at all... jordan scored 75% or more of his points playing off-ball... this is easily verifiable and common knowledge to experienced fans...

i just posted those GIFs for fun - you don't seem to realize that i couldn't literally post 5000 more if i had the time.. but i shouldn't have to - you shouldn't be so ignorant about something you are arguing.

i'm done here.

i can't talk to people who don't know what off-ball play entails, or equate the off-ball games of durant to jordan - they couldn't be more different - durant can barely drop-step (one-step vertical)... you'd never see durant take one step and do any of the moves you saw jordan do off a drop-step in those GIFs.

3ball

01-12-2015, 09:32 AM

I'm not disputing that Jordan was great playing off-ball basketball... but I think 3ball and I have very different definitions as to what "off-ball" actually is.
you don't know what off-ball play is... period... you have no idea.

you think it's just reggie miller and rip hamilton running off screens (which MJ did more than they did btw).

Rose'sACL

01-12-2015, 09:47 AM

you don't know what off-ball play is... period... you have no idea.

you think it's just reggie miller and rip hamilton running off screens (which MJ did more than they did btw).
he does. you don't.

kshutts1

01-12-2015, 09:48 AM

you don't know what off-ball play is... period... you have no idea.

you think it's just reggie miller and rip hamilton running off screens (which MJ did more than they did btw).
Again, we just have different definitions. Don't get too defensive; I never said yours was wrong. Just different.

I look at it literally... "off-ball" literally means that the majority of said player's offensive game is done without the ball in their hands. The Jordan that I watched was not an off-ball player. When he was, he was great at it... but that's not the Jordan I remember.

Now, my memory could be wrong, or my definition could be wrong, and I could be wrong... But that's why I say that you and I have different definitions, and why I don't consider Jordan to be an off-ball player.

Roundball_Rock

01-12-2015, 09:59 AM

If Jordan's team was more stacked than other guys
.

Who else could have retired a month before the season, forced their team to replace him with a scrub who could not make a NBA roster the previous 2 years (all the FA's were obviously signed by October) and still have his team nearly win the #1 seed despite injury issues? I look forward to the list!

jordan takes 2nd round teams and turns them into the greatest team of all time.

Legitimate point.

kshutts1

01-12-2015, 10:03 AM

Who else could have retired a month before the season, forced their team to replace him with a scrub who could not make a NBA roster the previous 2 years (all the FA's were obviously signed by October) and still have his team nearly win the #1 seed despite injury issues? I look forward to the list!

Legitimate point.
To be fair to the "second round to greatest team ever" argument... a lot of ATGs may have been able to do that. Jordan is there only one where we have actually SEEN it happen.
I don't mean this as a dis, but Magic, Bird, Duncan, Kobe, Lebron, Oscar, Kareem, Shaq, Wilt, Russell, West, KG, Malone, Malone... to my recollection, none of them just ever left without allowing the team adequate time to replace them with a starting-caliber player.

Could be wrong... but I'm fairly certain that's the case, except for injuries, but only season-long injuries would affect a team and provide us with the "evidence" we need to support the "second round to greatest ever" argument.

3ball

01-12-2015, 10:04 AM

Again, we just have different definitions. Don't get too defensive; I never said yours was wrong. Just different.

I look at it literally... "off-ball" literally means that the majority of said player's offensive game is done without the ball in their hands. The Jordan that I watched was not an off-ball player. When he was, he was great at it... but that's not the Jordan I remember.

Now, my memory could be wrong, or my definition could be wrong, and I could be wrong... But that's why I say that you and I have different definitions, and why I don't consider Jordan to be an off-ball player.

how can a guy score without the ball in his hands?... again, you think off-ball play is just the stuff reggie miller did.

you aren't aware that these three GIFs all show jordan scoring off-ball:

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/e8b5c461a047ac39bd4a3f204292ebe1.gif

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/a9a532eed8e9765b32f62c10e401918d.gif

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Jordan_upfake_baseline_spin_ha_1c67b79b5d1df94cd23 9d290b3690a33.gif

StephHamann

01-12-2015, 10:16 AM

No, the best way to build a team is building it around an alpha player.

Mathematical proof:

Beta players give you 2/5 chance of success while the chances are 5/7 with alpha players.

3ball

01-12-2015, 10:31 AM

To be fair to the "second round to greatest team ever" argument... a lot of ATGs may have been able to do that. Jordan is there only one where we have actually SEEN it happen.
I don't mean this as a dis, but Magic, Bird, Duncan, Kobe, Lebron, Oscar, Kareem, Shaq, Wilt, Russell, West, KG, Malone, Malone... to my recollection, none of them just ever left without allowing the team adequate time to replace them with a starting-caliber player.

Could be wrong... but I'm fairly certain that's the case, except for injuries, but only season-long injuries would affect a team and provide us with the "evidence" we need to support the "second round to greatest ever" argument.
that's the weakest argument i've ever heard.

so let's diminish jordan turning a 2nd round team into the greatest team of all-time, because we are ASSUMING other greats could have also 3-peated like jordan did?

what a joke... jordan's 3-peats were the first 3-peats since the 60's Celtics - so nobody was able to 3-peat normally, let alone after first retiring and then coming back to a totally different team (pippen was the only holdover).

keep trying buddy.
.

Roundball_Rock

01-12-2015, 10:52 AM

To be fair to the "second round to greatest team ever" argument... a lot of ATGs may have been able to do that. Jordan is there only one where we have actually SEEN it happen.
I don't mean this as a dis, but Magic, Bird, Duncan, Kobe, Lebron, Oscar, Kareem, Shaq, Wilt, Russell, West, KG, Malone, Malone... to my recollection, none of them just ever left without allowing the team adequate time to replace them with a starting-caliber player.

Could be wrong... but I'm fairly certain that's the case, except for injuries, but only season-long injuries would affect a team and provide us with the "evidence" we need to support the "second round to greatest ever" argument.

Excellent point. They nearly won the #1 seed and were basically one phantom foul from the ECF with a CBA SG (the CBA was the 90's version of the D-League). If MJ did what EVERY other legend did and retire in a timely manner the Bulls would have been able to get a legitimate starter to replace him (i.e. Deng for LeBron or Seiklay for Shaq). Would they be a "second round" team then? I doubt it...

The irony is despite MJ handicapping the team that remains the only time a team lost a GOAT-caliber player and remained elite the following year.

3ball

01-12-2015, 11:08 AM

To be fair to the "second round to greatest team ever" argument... a lot of ATGs may have been able to do that. Jordan is there only one where we have actually SEEN it happen.

if wilt, kareem, lebron, duncan, oscar etc. can't 3-peat NORMALLY in their real, non-hypothetical careers, then it's pretty dumb to assume they would be able to 3-peat after retiring and coming back like Jordan did.

jordan was the first to 3-peat since the 60's celtics... but itt we learn that accomplishments are meaningless, because any great player could have done it.

any great could have put up 34ppg in the playoffs.. either that, or they wouldn't have needed to average that many - i mean, the bulls squeaked it out against the suns in 1993, and again against the jazz in 1998.... but i'm sure they could have won with any stiff in jordan's place getting 25/5/5, instead of 41 ppg in 1993, or a Finals record 38% of the team's points in 1998.

all these things are easily assumable, realistic and completely logical.. :rockon:

KobesFinger

01-12-2015, 11:26 AM

go watch some jordan on youtube... seriously bro... it's so obvious that you haven't watched him at all... jordan scored 75% or more of his points playing off-ball... this is easily verifiable and common knowledge to experienced fans...

i just posted those GIFs for fun - you don't seem to realize that i couldn't literally post 5000 more if i had the time.. but i shouldn't have to - you shouldn't be so ignorant about something you are arguing.

i'm done here.

i can't talk to people who don't know what off-ball play entails, or equate the off-ball games of durant to jordan - they couldn't be more different - durant can barely drop-step (one-step vertical)... you'd never see durant take one step and do any of the moves you saw jordan do off a drop-step in those GIFs.

I don't deny I never saw Jordan live, I've said multiple times I'm too young. But I feel like you didn't either, I could be and probably am wrong. You act as if Jordan was absolutely perfect, never made mistakes and was the GOAT at every aspect of the game. That sounds like somebody who watched a ton of highlights and mixes and not full games.

And I'm not sitting here saying Jordan COULDN'T play off-ball. I said the gifs you supplied weren't the best evidence as in most of them he was passed the ball and then did something with it. Not initiating the play isn't the same as playing off-ball. Next time post full videos not gifs that show half the play.

And refute my point about Rip, Reggie, Ray, Dirk and Durant. 4 rings between them yet four of those five are the best off-ball players I've seen in my life, and one of them (Ray) adapted his game to resemble the other (Reggie) once he got old and his role changed.

Kvnzhangyay

01-12-2015, 11:28 AM

so there happened to be 2 or 3 extra all-time perimeter defenders in the league at that time, just like there were a few extra, great big men during that time.

just the fact that as a stats expert of some kind, you would try to post this as a legitimate argument, shows how disingenuous you are on this and likely other hoops topics as well.

makes me think you are boxed in a corner, and are now resorting to arguments you KNOW are garbage.
.

Actually its the opposite, you are the one boxed in a corner and you are the one resorting to garbage arguments. If you weren't you wouldn't have brought up the personal attack.

Its ok though, your a stubborn fellow. You lose every argument you have on threads you post, but you, in your stubborn mindset, think you've won :lol :lol

ralph_i_el

01-12-2015, 12:01 PM

ralph_i_el

01-12-2015, 12:05 PM

that's the weakest argument i've ever heard.

so let's diminish jordan turning a 2nd round team into the greatest team of all-time, because we are ASSUMING other greats could have also 3-peated like jordan did?

.

Come on :facepalm: take any second round team and remove a scrub...then replace that scrub with a hall of famer. Take last years Wizards, and give them Larry Bird instead of Martell Webster. Take last years Blazers, and give them Shaq instead of Robin Lopez.

Lillard-Mathews-Batum-Aldrige-Shaq.....that would be one of the GOAT teams.

And Webster and Lopez aren't even scrubs.

HurricaneKid

01-12-2015, 12:06 PM

Jordan off ball player. OP has officially jumped the shark.

GimmeThat

01-12-2015, 12:13 PM

pretty sure what the OP meant is that based on empirical evidence, the best way to play basketball, is only have one basketball on the court while the game is played.

ralph_i_el

01-12-2015, 12:15 PM

lilteapot

01-12-2015, 12:16 PM

Dr.J4ever

01-12-2015, 12:24 PM

What I've learned about MJ from 3ball threads:

-GOAT off-Ball player
-Also could have been GOAT point guard
-off-ball passing
-had to score every layup over 3 defenders
-had a Jedi like "Navigational Efficiency" ability (aka traveling)
-didn't shoot many threes, but if he did he'd be the GOAT at that. Better shooter than guys shooting 40% on twice as many attempts
-never benefited from illegal D. Even as the face of the NBA, refs never protected him

Classic...:roll:

MJ is now suddenly Jim Paxson..:lol

3ball threads are like Waterworld, the movie. They spent a lot of money to film it(gifs) and tried to get big time actors, but at the heart of the argument is just a lot of bunk. Sorry.

Overdrive

01-12-2015, 12:36 PM

how can a guy score without the ball in his hands?... again, you think off-ball play is just the stuff reggie miller did.

you aren't aware that these three GIFs all show jordan scoring off-ball:

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/a9a532eed8e9765b32f62c10e401918d.gif

All three of those aren't off ball, but come on, really?

He was static before he received the ball here. He absolutely created the shot on his on. The passer didn't matter.
Going by that criteria every play is off ball, because the ball has to be passed atleast once on any play.

Jailblazers7

01-12-2015, 12:36 PM

OP literally didn't post a single bit of empirical evidence in the first post. :oldlol:

Rooster

01-12-2015, 12:48 PM

Rooster

01-12-2015, 12:51 PM

What I've learned about MJ from 3ball threads:

-GOAT off-Ball player
-Also could have been GOAT point guard
-off-ball passing
-had to score every layup over 3 defenders
-had a Jedi like "Navigational Efficiency" ability (aka traveling)
-didn't shoot many threes, but if he did he'd be the GOAT at that. Better shooter than guys shooting 40% on twice as many attempts
-never benefited from illegal D. Even as the face of the NBA, refs never protected him

:applause: :bowdown:

If Shaq get calls like Jordan did, every opposing team would have fouled out.:oldlol:

Straight_Ballin

01-12-2015, 12:54 PM

Who else could have retired a month before the season, forced their team to replace him with a scrub who could not make a NBA roster the previous 2 years (all the FA's were obviously signed by October) and still have his team nearly win the #1 seed despite injury issues? I look forward to the list!

Legitimate point.

Why are you down playing the fact that any team who had players under the mentorship of Jordan, would still be able to do very well in his absence. Are you forgetting that Scottie would cover Jordan in every practice they had? Do you think Scottie would have been as good as he was if he wasn't going up against Jordan on a nightly basis? Give credit where credit is due. The team was stacked because Jordan ENABLED it to be stacked.

SugarHill

01-12-2015, 12:56 PM

you don't know what off-ball play is... period... you have no idea.

you think it's just reggie miller and rip hamilton running off screens (which MJ did more than they did btw).
:roll:

kshutts1

01-12-2015, 12:59 PM

how can a guy score without the ball in his hands?... again, you think off-ball play is just the stuff reggie miller did.

You misunderstood my post/point. I must not have been clear enough. I apologize.

The reason I said "majority" comes without the ball in their hand is because I, obviously IMO, meant that off-ball play entails everything done without the ball, literally in your hand, that helps that player score of pass more effectively.
Of course the actual scoring, and passing, is done without the ball. Duh. But the "getting open" or "creating the offense" or "getting into a good scoring position" can be done without the ball.

Again, Jordan was very good, great, at that. But no, he was not a primarily off-ball player. The exact opposite, in fact. ... At least by my recollection.

kshutts1

01-12-2015, 01:02 PM

that's the weakest argument i've ever heard.

so let's diminish jordan turning a 2nd round team into the greatest team of all-time, because we are ASSUMING other greats could have also 3-peated like jordan did?

what a joke... jordan's 3-peats were the first 3-peats since the 60's Celtics - so nobody was able to 3-peat normally, let alone after first retiring and then coming back to a totally different team (pippen was the only holdover).

keep trying buddy.
.
I never mentioned 3-peating. I don't know why you brought it up.

We must have had another misunderstanding. I am apparently not very clear.

Again, I just meant that the only reason we KNOW Jordan took a second round team to the greatest ever is because Jordan was kind enough to leave the team without giving them adequate time to find a replacement.
Hypothetically, if Bird had left the Celtics after a title run, without giving them advanced notice with which to replace him, how would the Celtics have fared the following season? Probably quite similarly.

But again, we don't KNOW. We only KNOW with Jordan because he was kind enough to leave.

fpliii

01-12-2015, 02:45 PM

3ball - All I'm going to say on this is that if you think I'm being disingenuous here or elsewhere, then you're barking up the wrong tree. I don't troll, and never say anything I don't believe. The only reason I showed the past winners is because you said:

than all the bigs the media NORMALLY gives it to.

That pattern/preference of bigs winning had not been established at that point (87-88) in time was my only point. They couldn't normally give it to bigs, if mostly perimeter players won first.

I'm not diminishing MJ, I've said in this thread and elsewhere that he seems to me to have been perhaps the best perimeter defender. I also never said that he wasn't the best defender in 88. All I said was that whether or not somebody wins the DPOY, it is not my concern:

Watching tape (and I don't watch 1-2 games, I won't comment on a player until I've seen most of his playoff run, and I'll try to find regular season games, but it's tougher to find them), and remembering watching live IS the eye test.

The DPOY is meaningless to me though. I think he's the GOAT guard defender, but that has no place in the discussion. Camby won a DPOY one season, and he's not the worst selection.

I base my evaluations on watching as much tape as possible, and looking at data. You need both qualitative and quantitative information to make informed decisions.

Roundball_Rock

01-12-2015, 04:04 PM

Why are you down playing the fact that any team who had players under the mentorship of Jordan, would still be able to do very well in his absence.

Sincerely,

the Washington Wizards and Charlotte Bobcats/Hornets. :lol

This is a classic example of Jordan mythology.

Again, I just meant that the only reason we KNOW Jordan took a second round team to the greatest ever is because Jordan was kind enough to leave the team without giving them adequate time to find a replacement.
Hypothetically, if Bird had left the Celtics after a title run, without giving them advanced notice with which to replace him, how would the Celtics have fared the following season? Probably quite similarly.

We do have an example with Bird, albeit not immediately subsequent to a championship run. The Celtics had future all-star Reggie Lewis available on the bench to replace Bird. They went from 57 wins and the ECF to 42 wins and a prompt first round exit without Bird (Bird played only 6 games that season).

Jordan is a unique case for retiring after winning a championship--twice. Other than that we only have Russell as a similar case--and he did not retire a month before the season began. We also have cases where teams lost GOAT-caliber players at points of high team success, albeit not championships.

Bird: mentioned above.
Magic: Lakers go from 58 wins and the Finals to 43 wins and the first round without him. Sedale Threatt replaces Magic.
Shaq: Orlando goes from 62 wins and the ECF to 45 wins and the first round. Rony Seiklay replaces him.
Shaq II: LA goes from the Finals to missing the playoffs (and even when Kobe played they were awful).
LeBron: Heat go from the Finals to 0.400 and...? LeBron is replaced by Deng.

What makes the Bulls' case fascinating is that they were the one team to remain elite--and they also were the one team not able to find a starter-caliber, or even NBA-caliber, replacement for the departing player because MJ retired so late.

If they nearly won the #1 seed and they fought the Knicks, the 90's Bulls top competition (according even to MJ stans) at the Knicks' absolute peak, to a draw with a scrub at SG does it not stand to reason that if they had a legitimate SG to replace MJ that they would have defeated the Knicks? That would have put them up against the 47 win Pacers, who they dominated in the regular season, in the ECF where Chicago would be heavily favored.

kshutts1

01-12-2015, 04:09 PM

Sincerely,

the Washington Wizards and Charlotte Bobcats/Hornets. :lol

This is a classic example of Jordan mythology.

We do have an example with Bird, albeit not immediately subsequent to a championship run. The Celtics had future all-star Reggie Lewis available on the bench to replace Bird. They went from 57 wins and the ECF to 42 wins and a prompt first round exit without Bird (Bird played only 6 games that season).

Jordan is a unique case for retiring after winning a championship--twice. Other than that we only have Russell as a similar case--and he did not retire a month before the season began. We also have cases where teams lost GOAT-caliber players at points of high team success, albeit not championships.

Bird: mentioned above.
Magic: Lakers go from 58 wins and the Finals to 43 wins and the first round without him. Sedale Threatt replaces Magic.
Shaq: Orlando goes from 62 wins and the ECF to 45 wins and the first round. Rony Seiklay replaces him.
Shaq II: LA goes from the Finals to missing the playoffs (and even when Kobe played they were awful).
LeBron: Heat go from the Finals to 0.400 and...? LeBron is replaced by Deng.

In none of those cases did the star leave the team without enough time to find a replacement.

I'm not discussing just LEAVING a team; that's happened a lot. But rather how Jordan left the Bulls, and left them so late and so suddenly that they didn't really have time to get a replacement.

Regardless, you make a good argument for me. I just wanted to point out the technical difference.

VengefulAngel

01-12-2015, 04:54 PM

Can't believe 3ball manages to troll for 7 pages and people are still responding seriously lmao.

kuniva_dAMiGhTy

01-12-2015, 04:59 PM

Can't believe 3ball manages to troll for 7 pages and people are still responding seriously lmao.
Crazy as it might be, I'm fairly certain dude believes everything he's posted. lol

bizil

01-12-2015, 05:23 PM

I think typically the two most valuable kind of players to build around is an alpha dog big man with a dominant two way presence. Or one of those 6-5 to 6-9 perimeter players who are alpha dogs and versatile in an epic fashion. When u look at the top 10 GOAT kind of guys, ALL OF THEM fit one of the two descriptions I'm talking about other than Bill Russell. Of course there are exceptions, but historically one of the two type of players I mentioned are the ones EASIEST to build around.

3ball

01-12-2015, 06:55 PM

I never mentioned 3-peating. I don't know why you brought it up.

are you serious?... the reason bringing up 3-peating is important is because that's what made them arguably the best team ever - winning championships... 3 in a row.

so for Bird, Oscar, Wilt, or any all-time great to turn a 2nd-round team into the greatest team ever, they have to 3-peat like Jordan did.

and we know they aren't capable of it, because they never 3-peated in their own, actual careers.

tpols

01-12-2015, 07:22 PM

are you serious?... the reason bringing up 3-peating is important is because that's what made them arguably the best team ever - winning championships... 3 in a row.

so for Bird, Oscar, Wilt, or any all-time great to turn a 2nd-round team into the greatest team ever, they have to 3-peat like Jordan did.

and we know they aren't capable of it, because they never 3-peated in their own, actual careers.

Thats because the great teams of the 80s clashed with each other and took turns winning.

The 80s Celtics, Lakers and sixers... Jordan never ever faced competition on that level. Ewing Knicks and Pacers being some of their tougher opponents, Malone and Barkley who both never won ever and we're known chokers(more so in Karl case) or losers.

There's no way Chicago wins three in a row in the 80s..theyd drop to magic or bird intermittently.. And each team would come out with 2-3 rings.

And if you dropped magic Kareem Lakers or Moss Dr J sixers in the 90s they'd wreck shit and probably three peat with ease at some point.

Smoke117

01-12-2015, 07:28 PM

there it is - you are using the data to tell you he was a dominant defender.

without that data, you wouldn't post the thread correcting everyone and saying how underrated his defense is on "this board".... you would have allowed him to continue being underrated on this board.

okay... i see you're just making up your own rules as you go along now.

the DPOY almost always goes to a big man... guards almost never get DPOY, so it's significant when they are great enough to break the norm, which is always hard to do...

in this case, they had to convince 124 of the most prominent media members that they were a better defender than all the bigs the media NORMALLY gives it to.

but keep making up your own rules and revising history you weren't there to see, just like when you tried to say hakeem was better than jordan in 1993.

Almost every instance of a guard getting the DPOY...they didn't deserve it. (including Jordan) Hakeem should have been given Jordans, RObinson given Paytons, Ben Wallace given Artests etc etc.

They dont have to convince shit...the media are a bunch of ridiuclous morons. They gave the DPOY TO GARY PAYTON OVER DAVID ROBINSON...uh...yeah. The award definitely goes to who deserves it eh? How did Gary "convince 124 of the most prominent media members" that he was a more impactful and better defender than Robinson? He didn't...he just always had a big mouth which brought attention.

3ball

01-12-2015, 08:08 PM

Going by that criteria every play is off ball, because the ball has to be passed atleast once on any play.

off-ball play is anytime you don't have an EXISTING DRIBBLE - when you DO have an existing dribble, you are the primary ballhandler, and are NOT off-ball.

a lot of plays are off-ball plays: 1) catching it on the wing and being in a pre-dribble, stationary position (triple-threat), 2) posting up, 3) the guy the ball is kicked or dumped off to on penetration is off-ball, 4) catch and shoot.

all of these are off-ball scores... off-ball scores require less dribbles (usually between 0-2 dribbles) than plays made by a primary ballhandler, which makes them more quick-hitter plays that impose on teammates less (less standing around and waiting).

again, you clearly think off-ball play is just catching and shooting - this is a really bad, elementary understanding of the game.

He was static before he received the ball here. He absolutely created the shot on his on.

see, this is what i'm talking about - it's just sheer ignorance to think that off-ball players can't create their own shot.. that's just dumb - like you don't know such a basic thing about the game.

if you catch the ball on the wing and haven't dribbled yet - this of course is the triple-threat position (TT) - players can absolutely make moves from this position, which would constitute off-ball play... basketball 101.

and again, the quick-hitter nature of TT plays doesn't make teammates wait around as much as plays made by a primary ballhandler, and they also don't impose on teammates as much by requiring the type of setup actions from teammates that a primary ballhandler often requires.

here are couple great examples of the quick-hitter nature of TT plays, and how the fewer dribbles impose less on teammates (less standing around and waiting by teammates):

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/17edb86b9ab861f57c5439e206c8ac20.gif
http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/a9a532eed8e9765b32f62c10e401918d.gif

these types of plays from the TT position are night and day different from the more time-consuming plays made by a primary ballhandler - teammates aren't forced to wait around... teammates also don't need to position themselves a certain way, go set a screen, or deal with any of impositions a primary ballhandler frequently puts on them.

3ball

01-12-2015, 08:16 PM

That pattern/preference of bigs winning had not been established at that point (87-88) in time was my only point. They couldn't normally give it to bigs, if mostly perimeter players won first.

so are you saying that the voters had a preference towards guards those first few years?

you can't prove that and you know it... you're just saying it, hoping it will stick.

the infinitely more logical explanation that you are choosing to ignore, is that there were an above-average number of all-time great perimeter defenders at that time - and THAT'S why non-bigs got the award early on for a few years.

Sidney Moncrief - he played Jordan better than anyone ever has.
Alvin Robertson - Jordan said definitively that Robertson guarded him the best
Michael Cooper - we all know the type of defender he was
Dennis Rodman - ditto, we all know he's an all-time defender
Michael Jordan - the 1988 version of Jordan is easily better than Payton and Artest

you cannot prove that the voters had any preference towards guards - that's your own heresay and nothing more.... it wouldn't stand up to any kind of true assessment of the situation, and i'm surprised you either don't know that, or are willing to keep a straight face about it.
.

Uncle Drew

01-12-2015, 08:18 PM

I still can't believe how amazingly retarded off-ball passing sounds

3ball

01-12-2015, 08:46 PM

I still can't believe how amazingly retarded off-ball passing sounds
let me help you out like a i do my nieces:

"it's just like it sounds... off-ball... and then passer... put the two together... okay... so we have a player that passes while playing off-ball.."

as opposed to passing while being the primary ballhandler...

here's a visual of passing while playing off-ball:

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/5cd52fa99d892bb31f13e772321cd63b.gif

hope that helps

Uncle Drew

01-12-2015, 08:50 PM

let me help you out like a i do my nieces:

"it's just like it sounds... off-ball... and then passer... put the two together... okay... so we have a player that passes while playing off-ball.."

as opposed to passing while being the primary ballhandler...

here's a visual of passing while playing off-ball:

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/5cd52fa99d892bb31f13e772321cd63b.gif

hope that helps
It doesn't. Off-ball passing is not a thing. You're literally making up things to rep Jordan, how pathetic. :roll:

3ball

01-12-2015, 08:51 PM

There's no way Chicago wins three in a row in the 80s..theyd drop to magic or bird intermittently.. And each team would come out with 2-3 rings.

jordan's bulls would split championships with the celtics and lakers of the 80's... this is true...

but bird, oscar, or any other all-time great STILL could not duplicate jordan's 3-peats in the 90's, because in order for the Bulls to win those, they needed 33.6 PPG in the playoffs and Finals from Jordan's position - Bird, Lebron, Kobe, whoever, were averaging a full 10ppg less in the Finals.

you can't assume these guys would duplicate jordan's success in the 90's with worse stats - that's just impossible.

KobesFinger

01-12-2015, 09:33 PM

I still can't believe how amazingly retarded off-ball passing sounds

Didn't you know? Jordan could pass the ball telepathically

Fire Colangelo

01-12-2015, 11:58 PM

it's not just two games - the bulls were an ordinary 2nd round exit team without jordan, and were the greatest team of all time WITH jordan.

i'm not sure how anyone can continue dismissing this fact over and over - it's the only fact that matters.

You have a reading problem.

I'm not saying MJ makes his team worse. MJ is so dominant individually that he makes his team better, but he tends to freezes out his teammates and his teammates do worse because of that. But again, because MJ is so dominant individually, the Bulls are still a better team with MJ than without.

Not to mention the 94 Bulls were nothing but ordinary. They were one call away from beating the Knicks and advancing to the ECF. And Jordan wasn't the only addition in 96, you always fail to mention the addition of Rodman in 96.

Look at it this way,

In 1994 without Jordan, Pippen averaged 22/9/6 on 49% compared to 19/8/6 on 47% in 93, and 19/6/6 on 46% in 96.

Horace Grant put up better numbers in 94 than he did in 93 while shooting a better percentage as well. Kokoc put up career numbers in 95 without Jordan on better percentages than with Jordan.

This is literally the only instance where most of the player on a team shoots better percentages after the departure of their star player.

Let's look at the Orlando Magic after Shaq left in 96.

Key players Penny, Nick Anderson, Dennis Scott, etc all put up worse numbers on lower efficiency in 97 than they did in 96 without Shaq.

Let's look at the Heat after LeBron left.

Wade, Bosh, Chalmers, Cole, Andersen, etc all shooting worse right now than they did when they had LeBron on the team. Granted Wade and Bosh are taking on a bigger role on the team, but role players like Chalmers, Cole, and Birdman are struggling after LeBron left the Heat.

Again, not saying Jordan made the Bulls as a team worse, but his teammates had better numbers without him than with. MJ doesn't make his teammates better like you mythologists claim.

i love doug... man i love that guy... that was an off-hand comment he didn't mean, trust me.. now here's something things he REALLY meant:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIY_4vIxGEE&t=22m25s... :pimp:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nl7lSV6kcQI&t=2m51s... :bowdown:

:confusedshrug:

:oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

Yeah, all things negative about Jordan are off-hand comments. It's easy for these guys to compliment people, but usually when you criticize someone on national TV, you really mean it.

So no, Doug's comments about Michael being a ball hog aren't off hand comments, the youtube clips you posted are actually off hand compliments.

jordan played point guard for 24 games, not 13 (http://ballislife.com/michael-jordan-could-of-been-the-best-point-guard-ever-want-proof/), so you are once again comparing inferior performance to jordan's.

also, who cares about some random 13-game stretch for lebron - he's played point guard his entire career - the NBA's new tracking data (http://stats.nba.com/tracking/#!/player/possessions/?sort=TOP&dir=1) shows that he dominates the ball more than many point guards today, including the best PG in the league stephen curry.

he even dominates the ball more than kyrie irving this year and mario chalmers last year - certainly, if you dominate the ball the most on your own team, you are the team's point guard.... so he doesn't need a random, 13-game stretch to show his worth at point guard - he's been a point guard his whole career, so just look at his career stats to see his performance at PG.

I'm referring to the 11 triple doubles out of 13 games you always love to bring up. So I brought up LeBron's 13 game stench as PG, and explain how LeBron's team was actually winning with LeBron at PG as opposed to the Bulls fighting for 0.500 record with MJ playing at PG. :confusedshrug:

LeBron playing PG led the Heat to the championship 2 times. MJ playing PG led his team to a 0.500ish record. So LeBron is a better PG than Jordan is.

this is pure poppycock and sheer falsehoods - jordan recorded the highest plus-minus EVER recorded in 1996, and he even led the league in RAPM.

MJ's defense from 1996 to 1998 was exceptional - iverson concurs, and said this about putting his best move on jordan: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLhI9cgsO4c&t=0m40s... :bowdown:

Again, it's easy for players to compliments other players. You think Iverson would say "Oh yeah, I crossed him bad" and sound like an arrogant douche on national TV? :oldlol:

Truth is, MJ couldn't keep up with the quicker guards and Scottie often switched onto them. MJ also couldn't out muscle bigger guards, and Scottie often switched onto them. See the pattern?

oarabbus

01-13-2015, 01:40 AM

I still can't believe how amazingly retarded off-ball passing sounds

Only if you are still trapped within the confines of the Matrix. If you are unplugged, you can pass and even dunk off-ball. Jordan was also the master of out-of-bounds blocking, halftime assists, and on-ball help defense. There is no spoon.

jlip

01-13-2015, 01:49 AM

Only if you are still trapped within the confines of the Matrix. If you are unplugged, you can pass and even dunk off-ball. Jordan was also the master of out-of-bounds blocking, halftime assists, and on-ball help defense. There is no spoon.
:roll:

SugarHill

01-13-2015, 01:51 AM

3ball

01-13-2015, 01:55 AM

I'm not saying MJ makes his team worse.

Of course you're not saying that - but you did say there was only a 2 game difference without Jordan, so i correctly pointed out that it wasn't just 2 games... Adding Jordan turned a run-of-the-mill 2nd round team into the greatest team of all time, and 3-peat champions.

Now let's look at Shaq

Why bring up a guy like Shaq that had a better supporting cast than Jordan, yet Shaq and Penny got swept by Jordan in 1996... completely smashed... yet Hibbert and George, who are scrubs compared to Shaq and Penny, take Lebron to 7 games.

the youtube clips you posted are actually off hand compliments.

these are off-hand comments?... are you serious?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nl7lSV6kcQI&t=2m51s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIY_4vIxGEE&t=22m25s

LeBron playing PG led the Heat to the championship 2 times. MJ playing PG led his team to a 0.500ish record. So LeBron is a better PG than Jordan is.

Lebron might have led the Heat to 2 championships at point guard, but he's had .500 seasons too.. nice try though.

The fact remains that Jordan played better during his 24-game stretch (http://ballislife.com/michael-jordan-could-of-been-the-best-point-guard-ever-want-proof/) as the primary ballhandler than Lebron ever has... and Lebron gets to pass WITH spacing, which makes passing much easier.

Again, it's easy for players to compliments other players. You think Iverson would say "Oh yeah, I crossed him bad" and sound like an arrogant douche on national TV? :oldlol:

Iverson IS an arrogant douche, and has no problem acting like one on TV talking about Jordan... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mf3Ju1gT91k&t=0m9s

again, you are misperceiving EVERYTHING here, just because you want to prove something that you are wrong about.

btw, they showed the actual clip, and Jordan DID ALMOST BLOCK THE SHOT... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLhI9cgsO4c&t=0m40s

Truth is, MJ couldn't keep up with the quicker guards and Scottie often switched onto them.

i just proved above that Iverson was serious when he said Jordan was an unbelievable defender (video proof that Jordan DID almost block the shot, and proof that iverson doesn't mind being an arrogant douche on national TV).

MJ also couldn't out muscle bigger guards, and Scottie often switched onto them.

pure lies... show me proof - show me where this happened.

people overblow Scottie guarding Magic for the 2nd quarter in Game 2 of 1991 Finals - but this one quarter along with the 2nd quarter of Game 3 was the only times Scottie guarded Magic the entire series - here are all 5 games, so anyone can see for themselves:

Game 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWhxdhU9KSI
Game 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVX0D6K12v8
Game 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6SRq4eAafIU
Game 4: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AV7kewDeHPU
Game 5: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TrfuqseL1lg

knicksman

01-13-2015, 02:00 AM

if on ball players are better then how come the marburys, robertsons, iverson are considered cancers by teammates. Theres are a reason why bran is nowhere jordan despite his stats and teammates. Theres a reason why the millers, rip, allen, thompson are more impactful than iverson. So applying simple logic, jordan>>>bran and results prove it. Only dumbasses would argue otherwise.

3ball

01-13-2015, 02:02 AM

In 1994 without Jordan, Pippen averaged 22/9/6 on 49% compared to 19/8/6 on 47% in 93, and 19/6/6 on 46% in 96.

haha, this one's funny... that's barely any difference at all... the numbers you posted are impressive for how LITTLE the difference is, which is the point of the entire thread... jordan's off-ball game allowed teammates to play their game, so their was minimal drop-off when scottie played alongside the greatest scorer of all time, as you posted with your numbers.

otoh, do i really have to post how much better teammates play without lebron?... bosh was 24/12 pre-lebron.. 16/6 with lebron.. 22/8 post-lebron... now THOSE are some big differences.

Bosh took on a larger role, but no more than Scottie did when Jordan retired.... Now look at Kevin Love... Again, now THAT'S a big difference, which shows how much teammates must sacrifice for lebron to get his - like any ball-dominator, teammates must align themselves appropriately to create bigger driving lanes for him... this sacrifice is similar to the one teammates of a dominant big must make in their efforts to get the ball down low.

the sacrifice teammates must make for these guys to score causes them to routinely underperform, and/or the team's offense as a whole simply underperforms given it's talent... and most importantly, the team is prevented from employing the most optimal, strategically sound offense, which leaves them susceptible to losing to a team that IS employing the best brand of offense.

this is why bird and jordan are several levels above these players, and ALL players - their off-ball scoring did not restrict teammates in anyway, or force teammates to sacrifice in any way - naturally, their teammates had more freedom to play their game and consequently, bird and jordan's teammates never underperformed or lost as the favorite (very rare for all-time greats).

most importantly, bird and jordan's off-ball game enabled their teams to employ the most optimal, strategically sound offenses in the league - consequently, Bird and Jordan's teams WERE those teams employing the best strategy that would BEAT a team like Shaq's, Lebron's or Hakeem's, whose style of play prevents their team from running the best possible brand of offense.

knicksman

01-13-2015, 02:09 AM

What OP is trying to say is Jordan sacrificed stats to accomodate teammates while brans teammates sacrificed stats to accomodate bran. And Thats what the real meaning of unselfishness. Making your teammates happy and not how many assists you have. Its that unselfishness that made magic a winner. Same with duncan and russell because they are all willing to sacrifice their game/stats for the benefit of the team. Its the same reason why the iversons/marbury/robertsons are losers/cancers because they care more about stats than camaraderie.

Saying that a player is unselfish because of his assists is just a shallow/low IQ understanding of unselfishness.

RRR3

01-13-2015, 02:35 AM

First, let's start with Shaq and Lebron's underachievements (losing as the favorite):

Shaq in 1998, getting swept by Jazz
Shaq in 2004, getting owned by the Pistons

Lebron in High School - 2002 HS State Championshiplol at including this. Biased tool
Lebron in 2004 Olympicshe was a ****ing benchwarmer u idiot
Lebron in 2006 World Games
Lebron in 2009 - Lost to Dwight Howard's Magic38/8/8 and literally won them the two games they got
Lebron in 2010 - Quit vs. Celtics
Lebron in 2011 - GOAT Choke vs. Dallas
Lebron in 2014 - GOAT loss vs. Spursnot his fault

There is no need to list Hakeem's, since he has too many to mention - his regular season and playoff record doesn't even compare to Shaq or Lebron, let alone Jordan... Infact, in each of Jordan's championship years, Hakeem got smashed by the team Jordan beat in the Finals:

Hakeem got swept by the Lakers in 1991 RD1.. Missed the playoffs in 1992.. swept by the Sonics in 1996.. Lost 4-2 to Utah in 1997 WCF.. Lost 3-2 to Utah in 1998 RD1..

:eek: ... wow, and you guys are saying building around hakeem is better than building around jordan?... clearly, it isn't.

Now I will list Bird and Jordan's Underachievements (losing as the favorite):

.
Stfu

Spurs5Rings2014

01-13-2015, 03:17 AM

but bird, oscar, or any other all-time great STILL could not duplicate jordan's 3-peats in the 90's, because in order for the Bulls to win those, they needed 33.6 PPG in the playoffs and Finals from Jordan's position - Bird, Lebron, Kobe, whoever, were averaging a full 10ppg less in the Finals.

you can't assume these guys would duplicate jordan's success in the 90's with worse stats - that's just impossible.

I truly believe they could average 33.6 PPG in the playoffs and finals if all thy had to do was score the ball like Jordan. Bird has Pippen to facilitate and Rodman to rebound? He can concentrate on scoring and easily average 33.6 PPG. Same with Bron and Kobe. Imagine LeBron not having to lead any of his championship teams in most statistical categories like rebounds, assists, etc. Imagine Kobe not having to lead any of his Lakers championship teams in assists, not having to facilitate anymore, having Pippen to guard the best perimeter player on the opposing team. I truly believe if those players had to carry far less of a load in the other aspects of the game like rebounding, passing, defending, etc they would have a lot more energy to devote to scoring and could average the few PPG more they'd need to win.

Asukal

01-13-2015, 03:31 AM

Where's the evidence? All I see is the OP's opinions. :rolleyes:

Overdrive

01-13-2015, 03:41 AM

off-ball play is anytime you don't have an EXISTING DRIBBLE - when you DO have an existing dribble, you are the primary ballhandler, and are NOT off-ball.

a lot of plays are off-ball plays: 1) catching it on the wing and being in a pre-dribble, stationary position (triple-threat), 2) posting up, 3) the guy the ball is kicked or dumped off to on penetration is off-ball, 4) catch and shoot.

all of these are off-ball scores... off-ball scores require less dribbles (usually between 0-2 dribbles) than plays made by a primary ballhandler, which makes them more quick-hitter plays that impose on teammates less (less standing around and waiting).

again, you clearly think off-ball play is just catching and shooting - this is a really bad, elementary understanding of the game.

see, this is what i'm talking about - it's just sheer ignorance to think that off-ball players can't create their own shot.. that's just dumb - like you don't know such a basic thing about the game.

if you catch the ball on the wing and haven't dribbled yet - this of course is the triple-threat position (TT) - players can absolutely make moves from this position, which would constitute off-ball play... basketball 101.

and again, the quick-hitter nature of TT plays doesn't make teammates wait around as much as plays made by a primary ballhandler, and they also don't impose on teammates as much by requiring the type of setup actions from teammates that a primary ballhandler often requires.

here are couple great examples of the quick-hitter nature of TT plays, and how the fewer dribbles impose less on teammates (less standing around and waiting by teammates):

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/17edb86b9ab861f57c5439e206c8ac20.gif
http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/a9a532eed8e9765b32f62c10e401918d.gif

these types of plays from the TT position are night and day different from the more time-consuming plays made by a primary ballhandler - teammates aren't forced to wait around... teammates also don't need to position themselves a certain way, go set a screen, or deal with any of impositions a primary ballhandler frequently puts on them.

I don't know why I'm even arguing with you. The triple threat on an static play is not off ball. You have to create the scoring chance for yourself, that's what the tt is all about. Successful off ball play usually nets the passer an assist.

The work on off ball play is done before the reception of the ball. Standing at the 3 pt line waiting for the ball to drive simply isn't.

Yes, freeing yourself for catch and shoot is, getting in good deep position is, but once you pound the ball for 4 seconds it's no off ball anymore.

Damn off ball literally means away from the ball.

Have you ever played basketball in your live?

3ball

01-13-2015, 04:30 AM

Have you ever played basketball in your live?

:kobe:

3ball

01-13-2015, 04:33 AM

The offenses of teams that have dominant bigs, are not nearly as good as any of the BHulls championshipp offenses.

that's as telltale as anything.

Overdrive

01-13-2015, 05:00 AM

:kobe:

What's so irritating, aside from the spelling mistake? Thinking that driving from the 3 pt line to the hoop is an off ball play prompts that question.

3ball

01-13-2015, 05:26 AM

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/a9a532eed8e9765b32f62c10e401918d.gif

What's so irritating, aside from the spelling mistake? Thinking that driving from the 3 pt line to the hoop is an off ball play prompts that question.

i know what we can do.. instead of calling them "off-ball plays", we'll call them "plays without an existing, live dribble".

regardless of what we call them, plays that don't use an existing, live dribble are much less time-consuming and teammates aren't forced to wait around nearly as much... teammates also don't need to position themselves a certain way, go set a screen, or deal with any of the restrictions that primary ballhandler plays or plays WITH an existing dribble impose on teammates.
.

Marchesk

01-13-2015, 05:34 AM

regardless of what we call them, they are much less-time consuming - teammates aren't forced to wait around nearly as much on plays that don't involve an existing dribble... teammates also don't need to position themselves a certain way, go set a screen, or deal with any of the restrictions primary ballhandler plays or plays WITH an existing dribble impose on teammates.

Off-ball navigational efficiency?

So Jordan's ONE% would be the highest in history, is what you're saying.

knicksman

01-13-2015, 05:43 AM

I truly believe they could average 33.6 PPG in the playoffs and finals if all thy had to do was score the ball like Jordan. Bird has Pippen to facilitate and Rodman to rebound? He can concentrate on scoring and easily average 33.6 PPG. Same with Bron and Kobe. Imagine LeBron not having to lead any of his championship teams in most statistical categories like rebounds, assists, etc. Imagine Kobe not having to lead any of his Lakers championship teams in assists, not having to facilitate anymore, having Pippen to guard the best perimeter player on the opposing team. I truly believe if those players had to carry far less of a load in the other aspects of the game like rebounding, passing, defending, etc they would have a lot more energy to devote to scoring and could average the few PPG more they'd need to win.

Bran leads in stats because he chose to. He couldve delegated other duties like jordan but he doesnt because of stats. Great leaders delegate thats why the most successful players/leaders are russell, duncan, magic and eventually jordan. Thats the real essence of unselfishness-delegating roles instead of playing 1 on 5 because of stats.

3ball

01-13-2015, 05:56 AM

So Jordan's ONE% would be the highest in history, is what you're saying.

Jordan's off-ball play and the infinite diversity of his offensive attack was the main reason Chuck Daly didn't like to put Rodman on Jordan - Rodman couldn't handle a guy that could destroy him in so many ways, as demonstrated in this collection of Jordan FG's on Rodman (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=359858).

It wasn't just Rodman, Jordan's repertoire was too expansive for any defender, especially the bigger defenders that had quickness deficit - guys like Clyde Drexler (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10695321&postcount=8), Dominique Wilkins (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10744903&postcount=25), Kevin Garnett (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=352753), Grant Hill (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?p=10667322#post10667322), Reggie Lewis (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10667188&postcount=19), Richard Dumas (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10692400&postcount=30), Penny Hardaway (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10692264&postcount=24), etc., etc...

It would be interesting to see Jordan's quickness advantage against guys like Boris Diaw or Gordon Hayward.
.

Marchesk

01-13-2015, 06:07 AM

It would be interesting to see Jordan's quickness advantage against guys like Boris Diaw or Gordon Hayward. Boris Diaw or Gordon Hayward.

Yeah lol, I'm guessing you wouldn't put those two on him.

3ball

01-13-2015, 06:07 AM

.
On-Ball - Plays With Existing/Live Dribble, Primary Ballhandler:

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/7464a3314e5aec5ce037672c12d8c447.gif

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Jordan_Game_Winner_over_Rodman_cdfed0b0df8b81a04f9 cc8608a8e31bb.gif... GW 1989 ECF Game 3

Off-Ball - Plays Without An Existing, Live Dribble:

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/7e73a5105b77725d4d7c47736486d0b9.gif

More GIFs of Jordan using expansive off-ball and on-ball repertoire against Rodman here (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=359858)... or Garnett here (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=352753)
.

3ball

01-13-2015, 06:10 AM

In 1994 without Jordan, Pippen averaged 22/9/6 on 49% compared to 19/8/6 on 47% in 93, and 19/6/6 on 46% in 96.

Lebron's ball-dominance impinges on teammates' play-making responsibilities, which craters their raw production (Bosh, Love, Wade).. However, their shooting % increases, because in place of the play-making, they are doing more spot-up shooting and play-finishing..

Otoh, MJ's off-ball game didn't impinge on his teammates play-making duties, which is why Pippen's production barely goes down when he played with MJ again in 1994.. However, Pippen's FG% shouldn't be expected to necessarily increase alongside Jordan like Lebron's teammates do, because Pippen has retained his play-making duties, instead of being turned into a spot-up shooter or play-finisher.

This is why Lebron needs so MUCH talent to win an NBA championship - he needs to have enough still there after he reduces everyone's duties.

GimmeThat

01-13-2015, 06:21 AM

treat players you draft as your priority
meet players you trade for to build consistency
let players you sign to show whats missing

3ball

01-13-2015, 07:55 AM

Bran leads in stats because he chose to. He couldve delegated other duties like jordan but he doesnt because of stats. Great leaders delegate thats why the most successful players/leaders are russell, duncan, magic and eventually jordan. Thats the real essence of unselfishness-delegating roles instead of playing 1 on 5 because of stats.

Jordan didn't delegate - he did whatever was needed, which is why he was the Bulls leader in PPG, APG, SPG... and tied with Pippen in BPG (for non-bigs).... in RS and playoffs.

KobesFinger

01-13-2015, 08:04 AM

Whats off-ball about the last gif? He does a headfake from the triple threat then drives from the top of the key. No assist for Craig Hodges because Jordan creates the shot for himself.

Here is an example of off-ball play:

http://cdn.triangleoffense.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/Backdoor-Cut.gif

All Wade does in that play is cut to the basket and dunk when given the ball. Assist for LeBron.

iamgine

01-13-2015, 08:17 AM

Bird lost constantly to Magic/Kareem and MJ lost alot before the 3peat and against Orlando in '95. They were not the favorites but not underdog either.

The more much better way is to have a stacked team like MJ/Bird had.

3ball

01-13-2015, 08:29 AM

Whats off-ball about the last gif? He does a headfake from the triple threat then drives from the top of the key.

another poster also disagreed about calling those plays "off-ball plays", so we agreed instead to call it "plays without an existing dribble"... which of course are different from on-ball, primary ballhandler plays that DO have an existing dribble.

a few posts up, it shows the difference between plays without an existing dribble (off-ball), and plays with an existing dribble (on-ball, primary ballhandler)... http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10916354&postcount=138

regardless of what we call them, plays that don't use an existing, live dribble are much less time-consuming and teammates aren't forced to wait around nearly as much... teammates also don't need to position themselves a certain way, go set a screen, or deal with any of the restrictions that primary ballhandler plays or plays WITH an existing dribble impose on teammates.

also, as i mentioned earlier, primary ballhandlers turn teammates into spot-up shooters and play-finishers, while off-ball players allow teammates to retain their play-making duties.
.

LeBird

01-13-2015, 08:30 AM

Jordan off ball player. OP has officially jumped the shark.

:lol I know, right?

Jordan was a complete ball-hog until the triangle and even then it just made him less of a ball-hog, not an off-the-ball player.

KobesFinger

01-13-2015, 08:35 AM

another poster also disagreed about calling those plays "off-ball plays", so we agreed instead to call it "plays without an existing dribble"... which of course are different from on-ball, primary ballhandler plays that DO have an existing dribble.

a few posts up, it shows the difference between plays without an existing dribble (off-ball), and plays with an existing dribble (on-ball, primary ballhandler)... http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10916354&postcount=138

regardless of what we call them, plays without an existing dribble (off-ball plays) are much less time-consuming - teammates aren't forced to wait around nearly as much on plays that don't involve an existing dribble... teammates also don't need to position themselves a certain way, go set a screen, or deal with any of the restrictions primary ballhandler plays or plays WITH an existing dribble impose on teammates.

also, as i mentioned earlier, primary ballhandlers turn teammates into spot-up shooters and play-finishers, while off-ball players allow teammates to retain their play-making duties.

There was no agreement, Overdrive correctly defined an off-ball play and it didn't fit your argument so you moved the goalposts. You've just made up the "plays without an existing dribble". Do you think Phil Jackson sat down with his clip-board and said, "OK, I'm gonna draw up a play without an existing dribble for Mike."?

3ball

01-13-2015, 08:39 AM

:lol I know, right?

Jordan was a complete ball-hog until the triangle and even then it just made him less of a ball-hog, not an off-the-ball player.
for jordan's entire career, the buckets he got as the primary ballhandler using an existing, live dribble, were the minority.

instead, he primarily scored via plays that didn't use an existing, live dribble (such as triple-threat, post, catch-and-go, catch-and-shoot) - whether you want to call this "off-ball" or not, the point is that jordan scored primarily via plays that didn't use an existing, live dribble.

and plays that don't use an existing, live dribble are much less time-consuming and teammates aren't forced to wait around nearly as much... teammates also don't need to position themselves a certain way, go set a screen, or deal with any of the restrictions that primary ballhandler plays or plays WITH an existing dribble impose on teammates.
.

3ball

01-13-2015, 10:01 AM

Do you think Phil Jackson sat down with his clip-board and said, "OK, I'm gonna draw up a play without an existing dribble for Mike."?

Phil didn't need to say "let's draw up a play with no existing, live, dribble", because the offense was already designed that way - it's common knowledge that the triangle is a pass-initiation offense, that doesn't allow extended live dribbling or any ball-domination.

The lack of existing, live dribbling and ball-domination in the triangle is why Carmelo and many others think the offense is too "hard"... they simply lack the off-ball skill.

kshutts1

01-13-2015, 10:55 AM

for jordan's entire career, the buckets he got as the primary ballhandler using an existing, live dribble, were the minority.

instead, he primarily scored via plays that didn't use an existing, live dribble (such as triple-threat, post, catch-and-go, catch-and-shoot) - whether you want to call this "off-ball" or not, the point is that jordan scored primarily via plays that didn't use an existing, live dribble.

and plays that don't use an existing, live dribble are much less time-consuming and teammates aren't forced to wait around nearly as much... teammates also don't need to position themselves a certain way, go set a screen, or deal with any of the restrictions that primary ballhandler plays or plays WITH an existing dribble impose on teammates.
.
You need to see a therapist.

3ball

01-13-2015, 03:35 PM

.
On-Ball - Plays With Existing/Live Dribble, Primary Ballhandler:

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/d2bbe56a1eb654e80dc1bf7156cc1068.gif

Off-Ball - Plays Without An Existing, Live Dribble:

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/4de21365c5639aae4283b9edaf2a1f46.gif

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/cfe8a1bc1c2495d751af6692e9231b1f.gif

As you can see, the latter plays that don't use an existing, live dribble (off-ball) are much less time-consuming and teammates aren't forced to wait around nearly as much...

teammates also don't need to position themselves a certain way, go set a screen, or deal with any of the restrictions that primary ballhandler plays or plays WITH an existing dribble impose on teammates.

swagga

01-13-2015, 04:51 PM

get phil jackson, scottie pippen and dennis rodman and add another all star wing. ring.

3ball

01-13-2015, 06:10 PM

get phil jackson, scottie pippen and dennis rodman and add another all star wing. ring.

sure, but one caveat though:

the all-star wing must have the heart of an assassin, the guts of a burglar, and has to be capable of averaging 34ppg in the playoffs and Finals, all within an equal-opportunity, triple-post offense that doesn't allow live dribbling or ball-domination...

but otherwise, yeah, i think you got it.

Kvnzhangyay

01-13-2015, 07:14 PM

sure, but one caveat though:

the all-star wing must have the heart of an assassin, the guts of a burglar, and has to be capable of averaging 34ppg in the playoffs and Finals, all within an equal-opportunity, triple-post offense that doesn't allow live dribbling or ball-domination...

but otherwise, yeah, i think you got it.
Don't forget the all-star wing has to be the, or could be the
-Best off-ball player
-Best on-ball player
-Best passer
-Best 3-point shooter
-Best at utilizing navigational efficiency

Hint: There's a reason no one asks you for basketball info/advice, or regards your arguments as legit.

mehyaM24

01-13-2015, 07:34 PM

sure, but one caveat though:

the all-star wing must have the heart of an assassin, the guts of a burglar, and has to be capable of averaging 34ppg in the playoffs and Finals, all within an equal-opportunity, triple-post offense that doesn't allow live dribbling or ball-domination...

but otherwise, yeah, i think you got it.
not necessarily. take the 1996 season and playoff for example. scottie pippen led all bulls in rapm DESPITE jordan's so-called intangibles and points per output.

it was scottie pippen who had near and arguably MORE impact than jordan (not more skills, dont confuse the two) along with various aspects such as team defense, coaching and elite rebounding.

honestly, if you replace jordan with another high caliber, volume scorer, the bulls string together multiple championships. still. all the evidence point to those results.

knicksman

01-13-2015, 08:00 PM

Jordan didn't delegate - he did whatever was needed, which is why he was the Bulls leader in PPG, APG, SPG... and tied with Pippen in BPG (for non-bigs).... in RS and playoffs.

pippen was the leader in apg. Jordan could average 10rpg if he wanted to as evidenced by his triple doubles but he delegates it to the bigs/rodman. Jordan could average 10 apg but he delegates it to pippen. Jordan is one of the greatest defenders but he delegates it to pippen. Thats what leaders do. It reduces the load and makes teammates happy. Im sure magic could play like bird but he chose to play as a pure pg to make kareem and his other teammates happy. Thus the 5 rings out of 9 attempts.

KobesFinger

01-13-2015, 08:17 PM

3ball

01-13-2015, 09:07 PM

pippen was the leader in apg.

Jordan could average 10 apg but he delegates it to pippen.

Jordan's regular season and playoff assist and steals average are both higher than pippen's.

Destroys your whole dumb "delegate" argument... :rolleyes:

3ball

01-13-2015, 09:13 PM

not necessarily. take the 1996 season and playoff for example. scottie pippen led all bulls in rapm DESPITE jordan's so-called intangibles and points per output.

honestly, if you replace jordan with another high caliber, volume scorer, the bulls string together multiple championships. still. all the evidence point to those results.

Jordan led the entire NBA in RAPM in 1996...

http://www.apbr.org/metrics/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8671#p20657
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1nqWP4Lu7lBjAydga0vrN1Gv4L686iA1AktvFj4vgKSo/edit?pli=1#gid=1715147358

Also, what do you think the stats of Jordan's replacement would need to be to 3-peat?

What would they need to be to go 6/6?

mehyaM24

01-13-2015, 09:22 PM

Jordan led the entire NBA in RAPM in 1996...

http://www.apbr.org/metrics/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8671#p20657
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1nqWP4Lu7lBjAydga0vrN1Gv4L686iA1AktvFj4vgKSo/edit?pli=1#gid=1715147358

this is regressed rapm, and if we're only talking about regressed rapm, i will take espn's version over fpliii's (fpliii knows i dont mean any disrespect).

official regressed versions of rapm cofounded by espn's real plus minus founder: http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/ratings/1996.html

scottie pippen is atop of the list. hope this helps :cheers:

Also, what do you think the stats of Jordan's replacement would need to be to 3-peat?

needs to be in the vicinity of scottie and jordan in terms of impact, so a healthy penny hardaway or clyde drexler would have worked. the second 3-peat teams had more margin of error than the first 3-peat teams, so i think a guy like mitch richmond could play for the 1996 ball club, and the bulls still win at least 2 championships.

Height Freak

01-13-2015, 10:08 PM

Jordan's off-ball play and the infinite diversity of his offensive attack was the main reason Chuck Daly didn't like to put Rodman on Jordan - Rodman couldn't handle a guy that could destroy him in so many ways, as demonstrated in this collection of Jordan FG's on Rodman (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=359858).

It wasn't just Rodman, Jordan's repertoire was too expansive for any defender, especially the bigger defenders that had quickness deficit - guys like Clyde Drexler (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10695321&postcount=8), Dominique Wilkins (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10744903&postcount=25), Kevin Garnett (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=352753), Grant Hill (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?p=10667322#post10667322), Reggie Lewis (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10667188&postcount=19), Richard Dumas (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10692400&postcount=30), Penny Hardaway (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10692264&postcount=24), etc., etc...

It would be interesting to see Jordan's quickness advantage against guys like Boris Diaw or Gordon Hayward.
.

Wait, Richard Dumas? He only guarded MJ for 6 games (and not exclusively) during his very short (102 games) NBA career. I see your point in trying to demonstrate how he did against taller guards/forwards... Dan Majerle is slightly taller than MJ and guarded him much more games, for example...

I wouldn't consider Drexler, Dumas great defenders either. Hardaway, Lewis and Hill where decent but not elite type defenders.

What about guys like Mitch Richmond or Gary Payton? Or even Pippen who guarded him in practice (and no footage of this exists).

3ball

01-13-2015, 10:17 PM

this is regressed rapm, and if we're only talking about regressed rapm, i will take espn's version over fpliii's (fpliii knows i dont mean any disrespect).

regressed RAPM is garbage and based on boxscore stats - ESPN doesn't use it... the only RAPM that is considered viable and used by ESPN and others are true regressions that use play-by-play data, which wasn't available until 1997.

The first true RAPM that used PLAY-BY-PLAY data was 1997, shown below:

http://apbr.org/metrics/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8536
http://ascreamingcomesacrossthecourt.blogspot.com/2013/10/introducing-1990s-rapm.html

^^^^^^ and what do you know - in the first year that play-by-play data exists to do a true regression in 1997, Jordan was 2nd in the league in RAPM, at 34 years old.

knicksman

01-13-2015, 10:19 PM

Jordan's regular season and playoff assist and steals average are both higher than pippen's.

Destroys your whole dumb "delegate" argument... :rolleyes:

JOrdan in his 2nd 3peat playoffs per 36 where he played more team ball. 3.6/4.1/3.1 compared to pippen 5.2/3.4/4.7. Yup definitely dumb. LOL

and who cares about steals. steals!=defense. LOL the fact is its pippen whos assigned to defend the best player. And thats what delegation is. Preserving your stamina for the harder roles(scoring) and let your teammates do the dirty work.

3ball

01-13-2015, 10:54 PM

Wait, Richard Dumas? He only guarded MJ for 6 games (and not exclusively) during his very short (102 games) NBA career.

those 6 games were a Finals series where Jordan averaged a record 41 ppg... if Dumas had any effectiveness on Jordan, it would have shown in that series.

What about guys like Mitch Richmond or Gary Payton? Or even Pippen who guarded him in practice (and no footage of this exists).

Mitch Richmond?... are you serious?... there's a reason i didn't mention Richmond - i figured it was common knowledge that he was no competition for Jordan...

the fact that you brought up Richmond shows how unaware you are about how dominant Jordan was... do you realize that in Jordan's entire playoff career of 179 games, he only scored less than 20 points 6 times?

compare that to today's greats like Kobe and Lebron, who routinely have playoff games of less than 20 points, and have ENTIRE SERIES where they average 17 ppg or 22 ppg or some crap, even in the Finals!!!... infact - Lebron and Kobe's career playoff AND Finals averages range between 23-25 ppg!!!!.... Just no comparison to Jordan... MJ's lowest playoff series EVER was 27.4 ppg, and his career playoff and Finals are both 33.6 ppg.

you are clearly unaware of how dominant Jordan was, and how rare and below his standard like, a 25 point game was for him... that's a good game for everyone else.

I see your point in trying to demonstrate how he did against taller guards/forwards... Dan Majerle was taller than MJ and guarded him much more games, for example... I wouldn't consider Drexler, Dumas great defenders either. Hardaway, Lewis and Hill where decent but not elite type defenders.

you're splitting hairs - Drexler and Dumas compare very favorably athletically and defensively to any wing today... and Dan Majerle was 2nd-team All Defense for one year, maybe two.

of course, Jordan was a big mismatch for Rodman (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=359858) and he's one of the best forward defenders ever.. Jordan also routinely smashed good to great defenders like Michael Cooper, Alvin Robertson, Ron Harper, Latrell Sprewell, etc... Dominique guarded Jordan a super-ton, which resulted in 50 and 60-point games..

Penny guarded MJ a ton in the 1996 ECF - my GIFs only showed 2 of Jordan's FG's on him - but MJ averaged 32 ppg on 50% FG against Shaq and Penny in a sweep... Not sure if it's possible to play a higher talent level... that's certainly way higher than going 7 games with Hibbert and George.
.

3ball

01-13-2015, 11:07 PM

who cares about steals. steals!=defense.

It's kind of hard to "delegate" defense and accumulate a record 9 First-Team, All-NBA Defense selections.

Plus MJ got DPOY in 1988, when Scottie was a baby rookie averaging 7.9 ppg and having his diapers cleaned by Jordan.

Think about how bad Jordan's team was in 1988 - he had NOBODY!!!!... Even rookie Scottie was garbage (7.9 ppg)... it really was ALL JORDAN, more than any player ever, and in the toughest conference ever... no wonder they didn't start winning until they could get a LITTLE SOMETHING out of Pippen (14.4 ppg in 1989, which was enough for Jordan to carry them to the ECF against Detroit (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=361889).

LOL the fact is its pippen whos assigned to defend the best player.

pure lies... show me proof - show me where this happened.

people overblow Scottie guarding Magic for the 2nd quarter in Game 2 of 1991 Finals - but this one quarter along with the 2nd quarter of Game 3 was the only times Scottie guarded Magic the entire series - here are all 5 games, so anyone can see for themselves:

Game 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWhxdhU9KSI
Game 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVX0D6K12v8
Game 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6SRq4eAafIU
Game 4: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AV7kewDeHPU
Game 5: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TrfuqseL1lg

3ball

01-13-2015, 11:11 PM

.
Jordan 1996-1998 vs. Kobe 2008-2010... REGULAR SEASON

Jordan.. 29.6 PPG, 6.1 RPG, 4.0 APG, 2.2 TO, 1.9 STL, 0.5 BLK, 48.2% FG
Kobe.... 27.4 PPG, 5.6 RPG, 5.1 APG, 3.0 TO, 1.6 STL, 0.4 BLK, 46.1% FG

Jordan 1996-1998 vs. Kobe 2008-2010... FINALS

Jordan.. 31.1 PPG, 5.4 RPG, 4.0 APG, 2.0 TO, 43.4% FG
Kobe.... 29.2 PPG, 6.2 RPG, 5.1 APG, 3.7 TO, 41.3% FG

Source: basketball-reference.com
.

mehyaM24

01-13-2015, 11:26 PM

regressed RAPM is garbage and based on boxscore stats - ESPN doesn't use it... the only RAPM that is considered viable and used by ESPN and others are true regressions that use play-by-play data, which wasn't available until 1997.

The first true RAPM that used PLAY-BY-PLAY data was 1997, shown below:

the regressed versions of rapm are better than nothing AND also no better or worse than NPI rapm which has its flaws. fpliii has said there isn't really much of a difference with NPI and regressed, as they're both not RPI, but once again, MUCH better than nothing.

so in conclusion, rapm, both regressed and RPI, are still better than all advanced metrics that attempt to measure impact, and they will STILL be used as reference points by means of analyzing players and their impact.

1997 is irrelevant, btw. i was referring to 1996. get someone in place of jordan with SIMILAR impact (according to rapm, there were several) - and the bulls still win a title. other years, as well.

jongib369

01-13-2015, 11:42 PM

What do you think about a team that has a scoring dominant big as the number one option and Bird as number two? The big being Shaq, Wilt, or Kareem

knicksman

01-13-2015, 11:53 PM

It's kind of hard to "delegate" defense and accumulate a record 9 First-Team, All-NBA Defense selections.

Plus MJ got DPOY in 1988, when Scottie was a baby rookie averaging 7.9 ppg and having his diapers cleaned by Jordan.

Think about how bad Jordan's team was in 1988 - he had NOBODY!!!!... Even rookie Scottie was garbage (7.9 ppg)... it really was ALL JORDAN, more than any player ever, and in the toughest conference ever... no wonder they didn't start winning until they could get a LITTLE SOMETHING out of Pippen (14.4 ppg in 1989, which was enough for Jordan to carry them to the ECF against Detroit (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=361889).

pure lies... show me proof - show me where this happened.

people overblow Scottie guarding Magic for the 2nd quarter in Game 2 of 1991 Finals - but this one quarter along with the 2nd quarter of Game 3 was the only times Scottie guarded Magic the entire series - here are all 5 games, so anyone can see for themselves:

Game 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWhxdhU9KSI
Game 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVX0D6K12v8
Game 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6SRq4eAafIU
Game 4: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AV7kewDeHPU
Game 5: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TrfuqseL1lg

LOL there are 5 players on the floor. Pippen cant guard all of them. So just because pippen guards the best player doesnt mean jordan cant be 9 first team. And jordan is sg while pippen is sf so they dont compete with the award. And jordan encouraged pippen to be the defender that he is so he doesnt have to bother playing defense. Thats what delegation is all about. Theres a reason why the greatest winners have the least stats(russell/duncan/magic) because they knew the power of delegation. It motivates teammates when they are trusted and feel wanted. Thats what great leaders do. Meanwhile bird??same level as jordan? LOL the guy almost always disappear in the playoffs.

And Jordan had less help? LOL more like nobody wants to play with jordan before phil. Thats why hes a loser early on. Only when phil convinced him to sacrifice stats and trust his teammates that he became a winner.

3ball

01-14-2015, 01:29 AM

Jordan 1996-1998 vs. Kobe 2008-2010... REGULAR SEASON

Jordan.. 29.6 PPG, 6.1 RPG, 4.0 APG, 2.2 TO, 1.9 STL, 0.5 BLK, 48.2% FG
Kobe.... 27.4 PPG, 5.6 RPG, 5.1 APG, 3.0 TO, 1.6 STL, 0.4 BLK, 46.1% FG

Jordan 1996-1998 vs. Kobe 2008-2010... FINALS

Jordan.. 31.1 PPG, 5.4 RPG, 4.0 APG, 2.0 TO, 43.4% FG
Kobe.... 29.2 PPG, 6.2 RPG, 5.1 APG, 3.7 TO, 41.3% FG

Kobe not only has worse regular season, playoff and Finals stats as a 29-31 year old, than Jordan had as a 33-35 year old, but Jordan's playoff clutch performance during his 2nd three-peat was GOAT, and Kobe has never come close to matching it in his entire career, let alone his prime of 2008-2010.

Also, the Bulls barely won the 1997 and 1998 Finals, so Kobe would need to match every bit of Jordan's stats and clutch performance.. Here's how close the 1997 and 1998 Finals were:

In the 1997 Finals, the Bulls needed a Jordan game-winner to win Game 1, and another Jordan game-winner to win the flu-game in Game 5... also, Game 6 required a Jordan game-winning assist to Kerr - Kobe has never come close to matching this level Jordan's clutch performance in ANY series of his career, and neither has any other player, ever.

And of course in 1998, the Bulls also squeaked by Utah, requiring goat game-winner in Game 6, and requiring Jordan to score a record 38% of his team's points for the series.

3ball

01-14-2015, 01:56 AM

Yeah lol, I'm guessing you wouldn't put those two (Hayward or Diaw) on him (MJ).

Small Forwards guarded Jordan quite a bit... Gordon Hayward would too, just like Chris Mullin did:

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/a1aa237b2fa61f51632707009576fc24.gif

Not that big a difference from Hayward on Lebron.. :roll:

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/d7821303425e7393bf4711800224841e.gif

That's the thing - Lebron has been fully contained by SF's and PF's, whereas Jordan's quickness and scoring versatility was such a massive mismatch for forwards... didn't matter who it was - Dennis Rodman (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=359858), Clyde Drexler (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10695321&postcount=8), Dominique Wilkins (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10744903&postcount=25), Kevin Garnett (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=352753), Grant Hill (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?p=10667322#post10667322), Reggie Lewis (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10667188&postcount=19), Richard Dumas (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10692400&postcount=30), you name it.
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