Start a franchise: Magic or Lebron?

[CavaliersFTW]

Now that the deck isn't so stacked and the buzz about championships has died once more about Lebron let's revisit the comparison of Lebron James and Magic Johnson.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8Qbo0WqvOI

http://youtu.be/e9BqUBYaHlM?t=15s

Pick your guy to build a franchise and explain why

[Mr.Kite]

5>2

[navy]

Id pick both of them over Wilt.

[The Red Viper]

Id pick both of them over Wilt.

Ohhh You! :oldlol:

[305Baller]

I would have to go with Magic. Better passing.

[CavaliersFTW]

Id pick both of them over Wilt.
That would be foolish http://youtu.be/zirehYtoxoI?t=54m

[masonanddixon]

Obviously Magic

[plowking]

I'd always pick the better player. So, Lebron.

[TheMan]

I'd always pick the better player. So, Lebron.
:oldlol:

One guy makes role players into star players, the other makes star players into role players, guess which is which, genius.

[masonanddixon]

I'd always pick the better player. So, Lebron.

You weren't even alive when Magic was walking around, son.

[ImKobe]

You weren't even alive when Magic was walking around, son.


wut, he's still walking to this day lol

[masonanddixon]

wut, he's still walking to this day lol

Just barely. He never had that Galilee touch.

[plowking]

:oldlol:

One guy makes role players into star players, the other makes star players into role players, guess which is which, genius.

Who did Magic turn into a star?

[PsychoBe]

Who did Magic turn into a star?

revitalized kareem's career.

[CavaliersFTW]

Who did Magic turn into a star?
Better question is who did he turn into spot up shooters?

[Collie]

I'd pick Magic. I just feel more comfortable with him as my main guy since he can work in just about any kind of lineup. Surround him with a decent second scorer and some good 3 point shooters and defenders, and you practically have a contender even without another bonafide star.

[plowking]

Better question is who did he turn into spot up shooters?

I'm sure the good shooters to maximize their talent.

Who did Bron turn into spot up shooters or stars?

[plowking]

I'd pick Magic. I just feel more comfortable with him as my main guy since he can work in just about any kind of lineup. Surround him with a decent second scorer and some good 3 point shooters and defenders, and you practically have a contender even without another bonafide star.

So basically everything a basketball team needs?

[Collie]

So basically everything a basketball team needs?

Everything BUT a second star. No Kevin Loves or Dwyane Wades.

[SouBeachTalents]

Everything BUT a second star. No Kevin Loves or Dwyane Wades.

Kareem?

[SamuraiSWISH]

Well, Magic won't play for you if you draft him unless you're located in Hollywood, and your team has then the best player in the game (Kareem).

LeBron might bail on your team after 7 years, but he does give you an ample amount of time to surround him with help.

As basketball players? Magic is a better floor general, play maker and passer. Easier to build around in terms of his fit with other star caliber players. But LeBron isn't far behind Magic's greatest assets, while also being a vastly superior: versatile athlete, scorer, shooter, and the real tipping point ... the better defender.

Answer? LeBron. He's better. Point blank.

Bird > Magic, and the discussion between Larry or Bran is a much closer debate.

[plowking]

Kareem?

:oldlol:

People wonder why some posters don't bother on here. :oldlol:

[julizaver]

Now that the deck isn't so stacked and the buzz about championships has died once more about Lebron let's revisit the comparison of Lebron James and Magic Johnson.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8Qbo0WqvOI

http://youtu.be/e9BqUBYaHlM?t=15s

Pick your guy to build a franchise and explain why

Magic.

I think he could run the team even without a coach and I would take his basketball qualities ahead of Lebron's. He is what people called "floor general".

Lebron was the go to go guy in his first stint wiht Cleveland and bring that modest team to NBA Finals. Not bad fillings to your favourite team but outside of Lebron they were nothing special and without him would be one of NBA's worst. Not the same with Heat where if Bosh and Wade are healthy enoguh (from now to the end of the season) they could make the playoffs this year. I have watched the Game versus Detroit where he scored almost all of his team final points. Around that time I was thinking that if there is a player who could match MJ it should be that guy. And if Lebron had won 4 titles in a row he definetely would be in the conversation. But somehow he just missed something and his mentality was not the same like MJs. Lebron played second fiddle to Wade in 2011 Finals and he took a lot of blame for it.
In the last Finals I think the Game 1 (the Cramp game) was the decisive. If Heat had a chanse of treepeeting it was it. Lebron was dominating and Heat was on the verge of winning with him on the floor. Very sad that the game was decided by such missfortune events. Had the Heat won the first game then they would have the pshyhological advantage, although the Spurs team is very solid, with one of the best coaches and with very experienced players.

And I would prefer the game to be run by the best playmaker in the last 35 years then the versatile wing player with great court vision. With Magic would be more easy to add another players to fullfill the team. With Lebron I would still need to find good guards while with Magic I need to find players who could just run the floor and shoot the ball, which is always easy. Give me guys like Tony Parker at SG and Roy Hibbert at C, add some mediocre Fs capable of playing some defence and that team would dominate the league right now.

[Pushxx]

Hahaha the salt levels are at a maximum in here.

Anyway...I pick Magic by a bit.

[Helix]

Magic all the way. Ultimately though......Wilt over anybody.

[bizil]

Well, Magic won't play for you if you draft him unless you're located in Hollywood, and your team has then the best player in the game (Kareem).

LeBron might bail on your team after 7 years, but he does give you an ample amount of time to surround him with help.

As basketball players? Magic is a better floor general, play maker and passer. Easier to build around in terms of his fit with other star caliber players. But LeBron isn't far behind Magic's greatest assets, while also being a vastly superior: versatile athlete, scorer, shooter, and the real tipping point ... the better defender.

Answer? LeBron. He's better. Point blank.

Bird > Magic, and the discussion between Larry or Bran is a much closer debate.

Right on the money! I would take Lebron over Magic due to the factors u stated. Bron is the most versatile player of all time. But in a sense, I group Bron, Magic, and Bird together on their own level. Because of all the legendary perimeter players, they are the ones who can swing up front and dominate from a power forward position.

They are the size of many PF's and have played plenty of 4 too. As they get older, they can always move more exclusively to the PF. Bird and Magic did it at the end of their careers. And Bron might as well. This kind of versatility separates them from icons such as MJ, Kobe, West, Big O, Doc, Hondo, Wade, etc.

[Overdrive]

Do I get Kareem on my team?

[StephHamann]

Better question is who did he turn into spot up shooters?

http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/640/962/d91.gif

[mehyaM24]

assuming starting a franchise means winning as many championships possible? you have to go with magic, just based off the results, right? cleveland isn't going to win a title this year, and every team will gradually get better heading into following seasons. gonna be tough for lebron to match magic and his better resume.

[Rose'sACL]

Better question wod be bird or lebron......lebron >magic easily for those of us who actually watch basketball and not go by reputation alone.
West was so bad during 80s ...even worse than current east in a lot of years.

[knicksman]

considering that pure pgs have higher impact than score first pgs based on history and bran/magic are just taller versions of these guys then you must be an idiot not to pick magic. results speaks for itself.

[kshutts1]

Are we starting said franchise now, or in the 80s?

If now, what were the CBA and salary cap structure like in the 80s?
How have defensive rules changed since then?
How have offenses evolved, and thus defenses evolved?
How would Magic's game translate to today?

I have Magic and Lebron in the same tier, so I don't think either choice is wrong. There's a lot of "hate" right now for Lebron, but the guy is clearly super successful. I just think the league has changed too much for Magic's career to be "cut-and-pasted" into today's league. Not saying Magic wouldn't be a top 2-3 player, just making an educated guess, as it were, to show that it's not such an easy answer.

[Rose'sACL]

Are we starting said franchise now, or in the 80s?

If now, what were the CBA and salary cap structure like in the 80s?
How have defensive rules changed since then?
How have offenses evolved, and thus defenses evolved?
How would Magic's game translate to today?

I have Magic and Lebron in the same tier, so I don't think either choice is wrong. There's a lot of "hate" right now for Lebron, but the guy is clearly super successful. I just think the league has changed too much for Magic's career to be "cut-and-pasted" into today's league. Not saying Magic wouldn't be a top 2-3 player, just making an educated guess, as it were, to show that it's not such an easy answer.
believe me. magic would be shitted on his defense like harden was. no one here would accept it though.

[bizil]

Another scary part about Magic is he left MANY YEARS on the table due to the HIV. I would say possibly 7-8 years. The numbers he could have put up would have been STAGGERING!! He would have easily become the first player with at least 20,000 points and 10,000 assists. The all-time assist title would be put our of reach. He might have added another ring as well if he held on until Shaq came to the Lakers. And I also assume West would have still gotten Kobe somehow too. So if Magic's stays healthy, I say he plays until 39- 40 like Malone, Stockton, and MJ.

[kshutts1]

Another scary part about Magic is he left MANY YEARS on the table due to the HIV. I would say possibly 7-8 years. The numbers he could have put up would have been STAGGERING!! He would have easily become the first player with at least 20,000 points and 10,000 assists. The all-time assist title would be put our of reach. He might have added another ring as well if he held on until Shaq came to the Lakers. And I also assume West would have still gotten Kobe somehow too. So if Magic's stays healthy, I say he plays until 39- 40 like Malone, Stockton, and MJ.
It already is, and it's not Magic's.

Rest of your post I mostly agree with, though.

Edit: Actually, you and I agree on most things.. I just wish you would utilize paragraphs more, lol

[bizil]

It already is, and it's not Magic's.

Rest of your post I mostly agree with, though.

Edit: Actually, you and I agree on most things.. I just wish you would utilize paragraphs more, lol

For starters, if Magic NEVER RETIRED with HIV, Stockton NEVER would have caught him. That was my point. Magic has five years on Stockton, Magic came in the league in 79 while Stock came in 84. Magic set the career assist title way back in 1991. I don't know how that flew over your head. My statement was pretty cut and dry.

Stockton didn't break it until 1995. If Magic played until he's 40 (which would be 1999), Magic would have had EIGHT YEARS to build on what he did in 1991 breaking it. Stockton WOULDN'T have caught Magic.

[kshutts1]

For starters, if Magic NEVER RETIRED with HIV, Stockton NEVER would have caught him. That was my point. Magic has five years on Stockton, Magic same in the league in 79 while Stock came in 84. Magic set the career assist titles way back in 1991. I don't know how that flew over your head. My statement was pretty cut and dry.

Stockton didn't break it until 1995. If Magic played until he's 40 (which would be 1999), Magic would have had EIGHT YEARS to build on what he did in 1991 breaking it. Stockton WOULDN'T have caught Magic.
You may be right. Stockton's APG, however, dipped considerably later in his career. I'm assuming Magic's would have, as well.

But you're definitely right that it would be closer, and not at all far-fetched. My apologies.

[VengefulAngel]

Lebron in his era, Magic in his.

[Psileas]

That would be foolish http://youtu.be/zirehYtoxoI?t=54m

Some of these quotes are very interesting in general and I think one day you should add (maybe in your video description) who these quoted guys are.

[LAZERUSS]

Some of these quotes are very interesting in general and I think one day you should add (maybe in your video description) who these quoted guys are.

I have read Larry Brown's quote on a 43 year old Wilt before, but I didn't know an even more extended audio version existed.

CavsFan has a segment of the Barry interview there, but the actual interviews(...sometime in the 70's, and then only a few years ago) were nearly four minutes.

Of course, the quotes are/were nearly endless. John Wooden claimed that had Wilt had Russell's rosters, and Auerbach as a coach, that it would have been Chamberlain holding all the rings. Russell, himself, in an interview at the 1997 ASG claimed that Wilt was the GOAT.

You could add interviews with Walt Frazier, Bob Lanier, Artis Gilmore, and even Kareem a couple of years ago (which was amazing, since KAJ hated Chamberlain for years)...

Funny thing though...Bill Simmons NEVER ONCE mentioned any of those quotes in his Book of Basketball Lies.

I wonder how come...

[pauk]

Love Magic, he made passing fun. Lebron is unfortunately a better player, better scorer and a much better defender... just gives you more...

[smoovegittar]

Great topic! I'm torn. They both add so much, but I don't think either have ALL the answers. Magic for me.

[Height Freak]

Magic has the better personality and character to lead a team in the right direction.

[CavaliersFTW]

Love Magic, he made passing fun. Lebron is unfortunately a better player, better scorer and a much better defender... just gives you more...
Treat this scenario as an alternate universe and you are doing this from a team owner/GM perspective with your career and a lot of money riding on this, and you know everything you know about how these players panned out to this point in time in this universe. Now take a time traveled 17 and 20 year old version of themselves into your alternate universe in the same draft and pick a guy.

Do you pick the guy who proved loyal and had the competitive desire to BEAT the best not join them? Or do you pick the guy who jumped ship despite making repeat ECF appearances because he had interest to leave (his own hometown no less) to seek out and join the best elsewhere?

So I ask again Pauk, if you're the GM, what choice are you gonna make to start a franchise.

[Wade's Rings]

Treat this scenario as an alternate universe and you are doing this from a team owner/GM perspective with your career and a lot of money riding on this, and you know everything you know about how these players panned out to this point in time in this universe. Now take a time traveled 17 and 20 year old version of themselves into your alternate universe in the same draft and pick a guy.

Do you pick the guy who was loyal and had the competitive desire to BEAT the best not join them? Or do you pick the guy who jumped ship despite making repeat ECF appearances because he had interest to leave (his own hometown no less) to seek out and join the best?

So I ask again Pauk, if you're the GM, what choice are you gonna make to start a franchise.

There's no point in asking he's only going to pick 1 player.

[La Frescobaldi]

Love Magic, he made passing fun. Lebron is unfortunately a better player, better scorer and a much better defender... just gives you more...

gosh buddy watch the winning game of the '80 Finals (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=au7WJbus5BM) about 10 times. The one where Magic Johnson lined up at center, played all 5 positions, and completely failed to choke.

then watch james in any number of Finals 4th quarters when he disappears. I never saw any all-time great just ghost like that. None at all, bro.

[La Frescobaldi]

gosh buddy watch the winning game of the '80 Finals (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=au7WJbus5BM) about 10 times. The one where Magic Johnson lined up at center, played all 5 positions, and completely failed to choke.

then watch james in any number of Finals 4th quarters when he disappears. I never saw any all-time great just ghost like that. None at all, bro.

{checks pauk status...... lights went out....}
bye, pauk.

:roll: :roll:

[Kvnzhangyay]

gosh buddy watch the winning game of the '80 Finals (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=au7WJbus5BM) about 10 times. The one where Magic Johnson lined up at center, played all 5 positions, and completely failed to choke.

then watch james in any number of Finals 4th quarters when he disappears. I never saw any all-time great just ghost like that. None at all, bro.

Did you even watch the finals? Other than the tip, Magic rarely actually played as the "center"

[La Frescobaldi]

Did you even watch the finals? Other than the tip, Magic rarely actually played as the "center"
yeah sure did watch em. he played a ton of paint ball that game whether you wanna call his position 3, 4, 5... doesn't matter really. Shoot the 13 minute highlight clip I posted shows him at the C more than what you are talking about.

[LAZERUSS]

Did you even watch the finals? Other than the tip, Magic rarely actually played as the "center"

No matter...Magic DOMINATED that game in EVERY aspect.

He was, by-far-and-away, the game's leading rebounder.

He was virtually unstoppable any time he had the ball in his hands, and to be honest, he could have easily scored 50+ had he been intent on doing so.

But, what he REALLY did, was set the TEMPO. The Lakers had been basically a half-court offense for the first five games of that series, but he set the tempo, and the Sixers were helpless to stop it. By 10 minutes into the game, the Sixers were a beaten team.

Arguably the greatest Finals game in NBA history.

[La Frescobaldi]

No matter...Magic DOMINATED that game in EVERY aspect.

He was, by-far-and-away, the game's leading rebounder.

He was virtually unstoppable any time he had the ball in his hands, and to be honest, he could have easily scored 50+ had he been intent on doing so.

But, what he REALLY did, was set the TEMPO. The Lakers had been basically a half-court offense for the first five games of that series, but he set the tempo, and the Sixers were helpless to stop it. By 10 minutes into the game, the Sixers were a beaten team.

Arguably the greatest Finals game in NBA history.

I won't back down from Walt Frazier in '70 as the all-time best Finals game.

But Magic made Dr. J go home with empty hands and he did it without the greatest scoring force in the League at the time... psychologically devastating to lose Jabbar in the Finals... and that's right up there no doubt.
He went down in there manning up on Caldwell Jones AND Darryl Dawkins :wtf:
Russell was color commentator and he just freaked right out several times on that game.

[Cold soul]

Magic Johnson is the better player so him...

[sbw19]

Ask Larry Bird.

[colts19]

Magic vs Lebron is the perfect example of why you need the eye test and the results to matter.

Lebron is bigger, stronger, faster, has better stats and is a better defender. Forget all that crap, Magic is still the better player. You can't measure intangibles and sometime stats do lie.

[plowking]

Magic vs Lebron is the perfect example of why you need the eye test and the results to matter.

Lebron is bigger, stronger, faster, has better stats and is a better defender. Forget all that crap, Magic is still the better player. You can't measure intangibles and sometime stats do lie.

How is he better?

[SouBeachTalents]

Treat this scenario as an alternate universe and you are doing this from a team owner/GM perspective with your career and a lot of money riding on this, and you know everything you know about how these players panned out to this point in time in this universe. Now take a time traveled 17 and 20 year old version of themselves into your alternate universe in the same draft and pick a guy.

Do you pick the guy who proved loyal and had the competitive desire to BEAT the best not join them? Or do you pick the guy who jumped ship despite making repeat ECF appearances because he had interest to leave (his own hometown no less) to seek out and join the best elsewhere?

So I ask again Pauk, if you're the GM, what choice are you gonna make to start a franchise.

This is such a laughable argument. Magic demanded to go to the Lakers to play with the best player in the league in Kareem. Also, why the **** would he ever want to leave L.A.? He had a stacked team in a horrible conference and by his 7th season had already won 3 championships

[CavaliersFTW]

This is such a laughable argument. Magic demanded to go to the Lakers to play with the best player in the league in Kareem. Also, why the **** would he ever want to leave L.A.? He had a stacked team in a horrible conference and by his 7th season had already won 3 championships
Magic turned a 30 something Kareem who was on the fence about how much longer he'd even play in the NBA into valuable low-post asset on an open court show-time team.

Lebron turned a 30 something Shaq who was highly motivated and hungry to "Win a ring for the King" into a spot-up shooter.

[hahaitme]

Doesn't matter who you pick in Cleveland, still ain't gonna win :roll:

[bizil]

I gotta tell u ONE THING that really annoys me is this Lebron team up shit. People need to realize that MOST of the great dynasty or close to it title teams had multiple HOFers. So if u are gonna knock Bron for joining Miami, HOW ABOUT knocking Magic for joining Kareem in LA.

Out of college, many were projecting Magic to become THE BEST GUARD OF ALL TIME!! And he lived up to that! MJ was the only guard since to eclipse Magic in that sense! Magic could have EASILY said, I don't wanna play in LA!!

So if u are knocking the hoopla with Bron joining Wade THEN FINE!! But it was the best basketball decision at the time. I saw Larry Brown on 1st Take saying he didn't like superstars trying to team up to win rings.

But LETS say hypothetically that the Sixers could have added Shaq somehow to that squad in the early 2000s. Would Larry Brown have turned that down or not want to do it? Hell NO!!

And how about the Dream Team in 1992 teaming up to dominate the world? That was the BIGGEST MISMATCH in sports history!! But yet it was celebrated and rightfully so!

My point is if u DISAGREE with the hoopla in Bron joining Miami then FINE!! But in terms of a basketball decision, it was a great move!!

And let's face it, from top to bottom the Heat were FAR from a deep team!! Sure they were top heavy with three HOFers. But Lakers and Celtics teams from the 80's SMOKED the Heat's roster. The goal of ANY GM is to stack the deck and compile the best team possible.

So if u are gonna shit on Bron, then Pat Riley and Mickey needs to get shitted on a LOT MORE!! U can't make those deals without the consent of the owner and president of basketball operations. BUT YET Bron catches all of the blame!! HMMMM! Sounds like HATER SHIT TO ME!!

[Magic 32]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1LoELfNFZaQ

http://weknowgifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/simon-cowell-breathing-gif.gif

[StephHamann]

Magic played with Aids, LeCramp sits out with nothing

[3ball]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1LoELfNFZaQ

http://weknowgifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/simon-cowell-breathing-gif.gif


so much faster paced game... no slowing it down and waiting for guys to set up the spacing.

free-flowing movement since players didn't have to camp behind the 3-point line, or stay out of the paint.

of course, with no spacing, passing was more difficult - and no 3-point shots meant the paint was defended better.

and no HD or long shorts... :rolleyes:

Oh, Magic.

[Papaya Petee]

This is laughable, the only way you can compare this evenly if LeBron demanded to be drafted to a team with a still in his prime Shaq.

If that happened, he's winning multiple titles and not leaving a team.

People acting like Magic didn't demand to go to LA to play with the leagues best player and LeBron didn't get drafted into shit.

The answer is, LeBron easily to start a franchise, and he's a better player individually.

[GimmeThat]

if you like selling tickets, Magic
if you enjoy practicing your basketball intricacy, Lebron.

one is a versatile point guard

one is a versatile basketball player


everyone wants to prove they know how to utilize Lebron
everyone can tell others what Magic can do

[plowking]

if you like selling tickets, Magic
if you enjoy practicing your basketball intricacy, Lebron.

one is a versatile point guard

one is a versatile basketball player


everyone wants to prove they know how to utilize Lebron
everyone can tell others what Magic can do

Bron would probably sell more tickets too. Just sayin'.

[LeBird]

Well, Magic won't play for you if you draft him unless you're located in Hollywood, and your team has then the best player in the game (Kareem).

LeBron might bail on your team after 7 years, but he does give you an ample amount of time to surround him with help.

As basketball players? Magic is a better floor general, play maker and passer. Easier to build around in terms of his fit with other star caliber players. But LeBron isn't far behind Magic's greatest assets, while also being a vastly superior: versatile athlete, scorer, shooter, and the real tipping point ... the better defender.

Answer? LeBron. He's better. Point blank.

Bird > Magic, and the discussion between Larry or Bran is a much closer debate.

I guess it had to happen someday. We finally agree on something.

[colts19]

How is he better?

For one thing he could post up other players far better than Lebron. That aside nobody could lead a team better than Magic. Results do matter and Magic had much better results than Lebron. He made your team play his pace and that means a lot. Magic and Bird both better than Lebron. Don't be a prisoner of the moment.

[lilteapot]

Magic played with Aids, LeCramp sits out with nothing
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[Lebron23]

In the current NBA Rules. I pick Lebron. They are both great all around players, but LeBron was the Superior defender.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AV3O94yv4vc

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Magic.

Gotta go w/ the results. People forget that Magic also led a washed up Laker team to the finals in 1991 (without Kareem), and steered the ship that was rapidly sinking in 1996, getting the Lakeshow to the postseason, while closing out the regular season 22-10 (dude was 36 at the time).

[riseagainst]

Magic.

[Pointguard]

Lebron for a minute there looked like he was going to challenge for the #1 GOAT spot. Somethings didn't pan out and a couple of flaws did surface. And I see them when he compares to Magic:

Magic could get a ton out of every player. He kept players interested. Lebron??? Bosh's game fell off of the planet offensively. Wade's offensive game was also a notch below. Kyrie and Love are yet to be proven. Magic was the best ever at making players better or more effective.

Magic rewarded players when they played well. If a player got a block, a steal, or set a good pick, Magic made sure you got an easy and exciting play for it. With Lebron its more than likely you have to be on the sidelines being a witness. The other great players have to be a witness or "victim" of Lebron's good play.

Magic controlled the game better than any player ever. Most casual fans don't know that this a great defensive tactic. If you make an opposing team play your game, most of the time you are going win if you have a stable offense. Controlling is great defense off of the ball: Ainge shot 4 for 24 in the 2 elimination games of '85 and '87 and Bird 37% because of playing Magic's game. And Dennis Johnson also shot 3 for 15 in one of those games. DJ and Bird were both great clutch players. What happened? Magic had taken their legs by running them into the ground. Magic had the best off the ball defense in elimination games ever. Magic dictated pace and pushed his game on the opposing team.

Lebron rarely dictates. Last year in the finals he played a superb efficient game. But it would have been better if he forced his game and tried to make SA respond to him. SA did the Magic trick. You play my game and it really wasn't a chess match. With Magic you always had to counter his play.

Because Magic could feature the running game, the fast pace game, the slow down game, the post game, the perimeter game, the wings or center game, even the foul game, he is the most versatile player in the game ever. Yes Lebron could play more positions defensively and at a high level too, but he couldn't effectively move into the realms of the game Magic controlled.

Magic had a special way with winning. He was always a contender in his 12 years. I would pick Magic because he controls, dictates, can play every style of ball, doesn't miss opportunities to get players off and easy baskets, makes others better at a higher rate, a big man's dream, a star player's dream, he takes more risk and was more efficient at the same time than even Lebron.

[CavaliersFTW]

Pauk disgruntled by the almost unanimous selection of Magic over Bron :lol

[dankok8]

Both are two of my favorite players of all time.

Honestly I choose Lebron. His court vision and leadership savvy although behind are still up there in the same stratosphere as Magic while LBJ is much more athletically gifted. Lebron as a scorer and defender easily eclipses Magic.

Put both on an average roster and I feel Lebron will carry them further than Magic. He can carry them on offense whereas Magic is the better facilitator. With elite talent Magic will do more and help the talent mesh better but he just didn't have the scoring arsenal. As an individual player Lebron > Magic.

[G0ATbe]

:facepalm Easily Magic.


Superior player, superior teammate, superior loyalty.

[Hey Yo]

:facepalm Easily Magic.


Superior player, superior teammate, superior loyalty.
:oldlol: he retired before you were born. You never seen him play outside of highlights.

[CavaliersFTW]

Both are two of my favorite players of all time.

Honestly I choose Lebron. His court vision and leadership savvy although behind are still up there in the same stratosphere as Magic while LBJ is much more athletically gifted. Lebron as a scorer and defender easily eclipses Magic.

Put both on an average roster and I feel Lebron will carry them further than Magic. He can carry them on offense whereas Magic is the better facilitator. With elite talent Magic will do more and help the talent mesh better but he just didn't have the scoring arsenal. As an individual player Lebron > Magic.
If you pick Lebron and all you have is an average roster it doesn't matter how far you think he could take it, he's going to leave...

Unlike Magic, who played through aids on an average roster just to finish out his career on his own terms.

It's a mistake to pick Lebron in your scenario, a huge mistake.

[bizil]

For me, the difference is more of the defensive issue than ANYTHING on the offensive end or rebounding. LeBron may be the better scorer, but Magic WAS STILL an alpha dog level scorer. Magic was a PG flat out! That was his primary position, even though he of course played every position.

Lebron's primary position is SF and usually in a point forward capacity. And of course Bron has literally played every position too. So even though Lebron is a pass first kind of player, Magic looked to pass even more. I don't think there is any wrong answer in this equation. I mean we are talking about the two most versatile players of all time.

So even when it comes to scoring, that's not why I would choose Bron over Magic. It would be due to Bron being a great two way player. Scoring for me between the two is a LOT CLOSER than people realize.

[La Frescobaldi]

Pauk disgruntled by the almost unanimous selection of Magic over Bron :lol

I really can't believe that some on here are claiming that the Heat were not stacked deep and wide because they freaking were.

Birdman finally got to show what he could do on a national stage because when he was in Denver nobody knew what that even was. Ray Allen off the bench??!!?..... man.....

If you stack up the Lakers and the Heat you got what.

Kareem - Bosh / Anthony
Worthy - James
Scott - Wade
Johnson - Cole
Rambis - Haslem

or some close variation like Cooper. Who did the Lakers have off the bench to compare to
* Chris Anderson,
** Ray Allen,
*** Chalmers (an idiot, but a high wattage threat when he's on his game)...
**** Rashard Lewis did great in big stretches,
***** Shane FREAKING Battier,
****** Mike freaking Miller.......

NOT STACKED?????
:roll:
:roll: :roll:
:roll: :roll: :roll:

But let's be fair to that monolithic & ubiquitous alt-system that is Pawk/Nash.

When did lbj ever have anything remotely like Pat Riley on the bench? ok he was the Heat GM and yeah he put together a cast of thousands and yeah i'm sure he spent lots of time in the gym, the locker rooms etc. But that's not sitting on the bench, it's not drawing up plays or handling rotations or making adjustments on the fly or drawing things up on the whiteboard.... it's not running the huddles, it's not that commanding presence right out there arguing with the stupid zebras.

Once again ish fails miserably to account for coaching.

[Simple Jack]

I really can't believe that some on here are claiming that the Heat were not stacked deep and wide because they freaking were.

Birdman finally got to show what he could do on a national stage because when he was in Denver nobody knew what that even was. Ray Allen off the bench??!!?..... man.....

If you stack up the Lakers and the Heat you got what.

Kareem - Bosh / Anthony
Worthy - James
Scott - Wade
Johnson - Cole
Rambis - Haslem

or some close variation like Cooper. Who did the Lakers have off the bench to compare to
* Chris Anderson,
** Ray Allen,
*** Chalmers (an idiot, but a high wattage threat when he's on his game)...
**** Rashard Lewis did great in big stretches,
***** Shane FREAKING Battier,
****** Mike freaking Miller.......

NOT STACKED?????
:roll:
:roll: :roll:
:roll: :roll: :roll:

But let's be fair to that monolithic & ubiquitous alt-system that is Pawk/Nash.

When did lbj ever have anything remotely like Pat Riley on the bench? ok he was the Heat GM and yeah he put together a cast of thousands and yeah i'm sure he spent lots of time in the gym, the locker rooms etc. But that's not sitting on the bench, it's not drawing up plays or handling rotations or making adjustments on the fly or drawing things up on the whiteboard.... it's not running the huddles, it's not that commanding presence right out there arguing with the stupid zebras.

Once again ish fails miserably to account for coaching.

While the Heat certainly had talent, they were far from an ideal team relative to their natural roles. Working without a competent big man who can effectively defend the paint or dominate the paint on offense is already a big disadvantage. I don't think you'd argue that the Lakers player's didn't fit their respective roles perfectly. The chemistry was a clear display of this. Having a base of a star big man and a star PG (who's a true PG/extremely unselfish) is invaluable in building that chemistry needed to dominate year after year and win chips.

On top of this, injuries hurt the Heat throughout the playoffs. Wade clearly took a step back after the first year together, and Bosh missed a huge stretch of the playoffs in 2012, despite Miami still finding a way to win those 2 chips.


What's being overlooked here is the importance of growing with your team. It's clearly a different scenario when you are lumped together on a team after establishing your own habits and routines than being drafted to a team and learning to play with each other throughout the years. The latter doesn't really require revamping one's while the former clearly does.

[La Frescobaldi]

While the Heat certainly had talent, they were far from an ideal team relative to their natural roles. Working without a competent big man who can effectively defend the paint or dominate the paint on offense is already a big disadvantage. I don't think you'd argue that the Lakers player's didn't fit their respective roles perfectly. The chemistry was a clear display of this. Having a base of a star big man and a star PG (who's a true PG/extremely unselfish) is invaluable in building that chemistry needed to dominate year after year and win chips.

On top of this, injuries hurt the Heat throughout the playoffs. Wade clearly took a step back after the first year together, and Bosh missed a huge stretch of the playoffs in 2012, despite Miami still finding a way to win those 2 chips.


What's being overlooked here is the importance of growing with your team. It's clearly a different scenario when you are lumped together on a team after establishing your own habits and routines than being drafted to a team and learning to play with each other throughout the years. The latter doesn't really require revamping one's while the former clearly does.

Showtime Lakers had plenty of injuries. Plenty.

That said. I'm on ish-record that Wade was plainly slower, so clearly the best strategy for the Pacers and the Spurs would have been to force Wade to run through powerful triple screens in the paint. Over and over. Chasing Manu around is bad enough but having to do it by fighting through Bonner then Duncan then Splitter would be real hard on a guy. The old Celtics did that a lot and so did lots of teams in the '70s.

And I associate myself with Pointguard's remarks when he says that the Showtime chemistry was created specifically by Magic Johnson.

[Simple Jack]

Showtime Lakers had plenty of injuries. Plenty.

That said. I'm on ish-record that Wade was plainly slower, so clearly the best strategy for the Pacers and the Spurs would have been to force Wade to run through powerful triple screens in the paint. Over and over. Chasing Manu around is bad enough but having to do it by fighting through Bonner then Duncan then Splitter would be real hard on a guy. The old Celtics did that a lot and so did lots of teams in the '70s.

And I associate myself with Pointguard's remarks when he says that the Showtime chemistry was created specifically by Magic Johnson.

I hear ya, but wouldn't you agree that the roster on the Lakers was clearly more conducive to developing chemistry than Miami's roster? Not just the talent, but the fact that Magic began his career there as a rookie?

[Pointguard]

Great points Frescobaldi and Simple Jack.

I think the existence of great teams like the Celtics, Sixers and Pistons, along with what I think is hard identity coaching back then helped, the Lakers in refining their strengths as well. To be honest, its hard for me to tell you the style of the Heat off the top of my head. Nor do I find much identity in the Mavs or OKC at that time. SA the first year was getting who they were to be for the second year which was similar to the Lakers/Celtics style. When SA style overwhelmed the Heat they had no response and couldn't assert themselves because they weren't strong in their identity. Remember when the Celtics claimed they were tougher then they were playing - they flipped that series on the Lakers.

As Simple Jack is saying above, the Cavs now are in for it again as Wade is pretty similar to Kyrie, except Wade is as intelligent as you can get in submerging his talents and becoming the support guy. And Love is the third guy which means the ultimate sacrifice. The thing about Magic is that he was totally down for the sacrifice. One of the few players that took playing like it was a marriage. Sacrifice for the team, step up when needed, keep everybody happy, and make sure you win in the end. Magic was the best ever at juggling the role as leader/support/pushing team mates while leading. Magic is probably the apex of teammate with a great thinking/intuitive game to boot.

[pegasus]

One of them is pure magic, and the other one is just smoke and mirrors.

[La Frescobaldi]

Great points Frescobaldi and Simple Jack.

I think the existence of great teams like the Celtics, Sixers and Pistons, along with what I think is hard identity coaching back then helped, the Lakers in refining their strengths as well. To be honest, its hard for me to tell you the style of the Heat off the top of my head. Nor do I find much identity in the Mavs or OKC at that time. SA the first year was getting who they were to be for the second year which was similar to the Lakers/Celtics style. When SA style overwhelmed the Heat they had no response and couldn't assert themselves because they weren't strong in their identity. Remember when the Celtics claimed they were tougher then they were playing - they flipped that series on the Lakers.

As Simple Jack is saying above, the Cavs now are in for it again as Wade is pretty similar to Kyrie, except Wade is as intelligent as you can get in submerging his talents and becoming the support guy. And Love is the third guy which means the ultimate sacrifice. The thing about Magic is that he was totally down for the sacrifice. One of the few players that took playing like it was a marriage. Sacrifice for the team, step up when needed, keep everybody happy, and make sure you win in the end. Magic was the best ever at juggling the role as leader/support/pushing team mates while leading. Magic is probably the apex of teammate with a great thinking/intuitive game to boot.

See this right here is where I'm headed too... one of:
Fresco's Rules of Hoops ~
All teams, over time, look just exactly like their leaders.

Anybody who tries to change it, or circumvent it, is fooling himself & has fallen right into folly. It is stark, fixed, immutable.... since long before the Caesars.

There is the colonel out there on the court, handling tactics and smashing it down in the face of the enemy, bending them to his will and forcing them to play his game. He gets virtually all the credit for the team success, and may (or may not, depending on the facts and the knowledge level and the support of the fan base) take the blame when they fall short.

And there is the coach over on the bench... who has to do his work not only through that colonel, that bright star who has his moment in the spotlights before the flame of athleticism darkens and goes out.......... but also the majors and the captains who come in on substitutions and rotations and platoons. If that coach can't handle all those players, and the guys on the bench who often only see 3 or 5 minutes in 5 games..... each in his own sphere, that team is going to be mud in the playoffs.
In the end, in the playoffs and the championships and the NBA Finals... all basketball teams look, not like that colonel, but like that field marshal on the bench.
But Magic wasn't just a colonel out there, he was a full blown 4 star general, long since proven and promoted past just about every level of leadership ever seen on any court in the game.... conducting operations right on the front line in the face of the enemy; and that's why he sits far above the guy that fades and disappears in crunch time... even with a vastly stacked team.

Just like Riley did so often in his days, Popovich bent Spoelstra to his will, dominated him at every turn of the Finals, and inevitably, ruthlessly, broke his spirit.
You see the clash of wills on the court, but make no mistake, the Heat quit because the force of will behind them was a broken reed.

[dankok8]

If you pick Lebron and all you have is an average roster it doesn't matter how far you think he could take it, he's going to leave...

Unlike Magic, who played through aids on an average roster just to finish out his career on his own terms.

It's a mistake to pick Lebron in your scenario, a huge mistake.

True Lebron showed his willingness to move on to another team but we don't know that Magic wouldn't do the same in the face of an average roster. We do know that Magic said while still in Michigan State that if the Bulls drafted him he wouldn't play for them. And that he wants to play for the Lakers...

[DatAsh]

I really can't believe that some on here are claiming that the Heat were not stacked deep and wide because they freaking were.

Birdman finally got to show what he could do on a national stage because when he was in Denver nobody knew what that even was. Ray Allen off the bench??!!?..... man.....

If you stack up the Lakers and the Heat you got what.

Kareem - Bosh / Anthony
Worthy - James
Scott - Wade
Johnson - Cole
Rambis - Haslem

or some close variation like Cooper. Who did the Lakers have off the bench to compare to
* Chris Anderson,
** Ray Allen,
*** Chalmers (an idiot, but a high wattage threat when he's on his game)...
**** Rashard Lewis did great in big stretches,
***** Shane FREAKING Battier,
****** Mike freaking Miller.......

NOT STACKED?????
:roll:
:roll: :roll:
:roll: :roll: :roll:

But let's be fair to that monolithic & ubiquitous alt-system that is Pawk/Nash.

When did lbj ever have anything remotely like Pat Riley on the bench? ok he was the Heat GM and yeah he put together a cast of thousands and yeah i'm sure he spent lots of time in the gym, the locker rooms etc. But that's not sitting on the bench, it's not drawing up plays or handling rotations or making adjustments on the fly or drawing things up on the whiteboard.... it's not running the huddles, it's not that commanding presence right out there arguing with the stupid zebras.

Once again ish fails miserably to account for coaching.

Heat had talent, but they lacked real chemistry.

[DatAsh]

Great points Frescobaldi and Simple Jack.

As Simple Jack is saying above, the Cavs now are in for it again as Wade is pretty similar to Kyrie, except Wade is as intelligent as you can get in submerging his talents and becoming the support guy. And Love is the third guy which means the ultimate sacrifice. The thing about Magic is that he was totally down for the sacrifice. One of the few players that took playing like it was a marriage. Sacrifice for the team, step up when needed, keep everybody happy, and make sure you win in the end. Magic was the best ever at juggling the role as leader/support/pushing team mates while leading. Magic is probably the apex of teammate with a great thinking/intuitive game to boot.

Wade stepping back for the good of the team is a huge plus for me with respect to his career. History won't see it that way unfortunately, they'll just see a drop in ppg.

[Pointguard]

See this right here is where I'm headed too... one of:
Fresco's Rules of Hoops ~
All teams, over time, look just exactly like their leaders.

Anybody who tries to change it, or circumvent it, is fooling himself & has fallen right into folly. It is stark, fixed, immutable.... since long before the Caesars.

There is the colonel out there on the court, handling tactics and smashing it down in the face of the enemy, bending them to his will and forcing them to play his game. He gets virtually all the credit for the team success, and may (or may not, depending on the facts and the knowledge level and the support of the fan base) take the blame when they fall short.

And there is the coach over on the bench... who has to do his work not only through that colonel, that bright star who has his moment in the spotlights before the flame of athleticism darkens and goes out.......... but also the majors and the captains who come in on substitutions and rotations and platoons. If that coach can't handle all those players, and the guys on the bench who often only see 3 or 5 minutes in 5 games..... each in his own sphere, that team is going to be mud in the playoffs.
In the end, in the playoffs and the championships and the NBA Finals... all basketball teams look, not like that colonel, but like that field marshal on the bench.
But Magic wasn't just a colonel out there, he was a full blown 4 star general, long since proven and promoted past just about every level of leadership ever seen on any court in the game.... conducting operations right on the front line in the face of the enemy; and that's why he sits far above the guy that fades and disappears in crunch time... even with a vastly stacked team.

Just like Riley did so often in his days, Popovich bent Spoelstra to his will, dominated him at every turn of the Finals, and inevitably, ruthlessly, broke his spirit.
You see the clash of wills on the court, but make no mistake, the Heat quit because the force of will behind them was a broken reed.
Deep... and most certainly true. Good Stuff Frescobaldi, like the universal principles in the Art of War in its application.

[eliteballer]

20 year old Rookie Magic:

Playoffs:

18.3 pts, 10.5 rebs, 9.4 ast, 3.1 stl, 52% FG

Finals:

21.5 pts, 11.2 rebs, 8.7 ast, 2.7 stl, 57 FG%


Prime LeBron:

17 ppg finals.

[GimmeThat]

LeBron, Andy V, Big Z, and to a certain extence Delonte West. During one of the Cavs better run, their off ball movements were just as fluid as any league top offensive scheme.


The Heat never really broke any players down. They just streched the big 3. its probably why Haslem had his decline.

But then they would just go through a strech of losing streak, buggle up fans and critics mind, until they all find their spots again.

[julizaver]

I see that a lot of posters compared both as an individuals and measured their qualities, BUT the topic was not who bested who. The question was who would you choose to start a franchise ? Ussually if I am to start a franchise from zero I would rather have a playmaker (who can dictate the game) or center (who could dominate) then a wing player. As good of SF is Lebron and as great is his vision he is by no means a PG. That's why even if by some measures Lebron bested Magic I would choose again Magic before him when starting a franchise.