All Jordan FG's With Kobe Defending [Archive] - Message Board Basketball Forum

3ball

01-15-2015, 05:08 AM

.
5 FG's on Kobe in in 1998 All-Star game (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10744214&postcount=23) (to Kobe's zero)..

8 FG's in regular season games (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10745049&postcount=30) (to Kobe's 4).

The clip below shows the VERY FIRST TIME Kobe ever guarded Jordan... Embaaaarrassinggg...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jx9xhHsxukc&t=1m20s..... :yaohappy:

Jordan used to crush Kobe like a father toys with his son.. No big deal - it's just a good thing Kobe wasn't starting, because Eddie Jones was really the one that caught the brunt of the abuse.

Eddie Jones was one of a bevy of SG's during Jordan's 2nd three-peat that otherwise played great defense, but that Jordan toyed with - Latrell Sprewell (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvquD3ktNbQ), Clyde Drexler, Penny, Kendall Gill (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10744186&postcount=18), Ray Allen (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCOJQOMEJ4Y), Stacey Augmon, Michael Finley, and just a TON of other guys if we were to go through the whole list.

navy

01-15-2015, 05:13 AM

Jordan and Kobe's relevant years didnt overlap....

dunksby

01-15-2015, 05:15 AM

.
MJ scored 5 times while Kobe was guarding him in the 1998 All-Star game (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10744214&postcount=23) (to Kobe's zero)... and another 8 times in regular season games (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10745049&postcount=30) (to Kobe's 4).

The clip below shows the VERY FIRST TIME Kobe ever guarded Jordan... Embaaaarrassinggg...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jx9xhHsxukc&t=1m20s..... :yaohappy:

Jordan used to crush Kobe like a father toys with his son.. No big deal - it's just a good thing Kobe wasn't starting, because Eddie Jones was really the one that caught the brunt of the abuse.

Eddie Jones was one of a bevy of SG's during Jordan's 2nd three-peat that otherwise played great defense, but that Jordan toyed with - Latrell Sprewell (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvquD3ktNbQ), Nick Anderson, Kendall Gill (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10744186&postcount=18), Ray Allen (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCOJQOMEJ4Y), Stacey Augmon, Michael Finley, Mitch Richmond, and just a TON of other guys if we were to go through the whole list.
Those names still sending shivers down my spine :roll:

3ball

01-15-2015, 05:24 AM

Those names still sending shivers down my spine :roll:
You only highlighted 3 guys, so that's still a lot of SG's that DO send shivers down your spine.

Also, Eddie Jones, Ray Allen, and Nick Anderson would all be top 10 SG's in today's game, and all were noted defenders.

I didn't even mention defensive specialists like Doug Christie or Derrick McKey that Jordan destroyed, let alone the guys like Reggie Miller or Allan Houston who weren't great defenders, but that would still rank very highly among todays SG's.

Let's face it.. the two-guard spot in today's game is horrific compared to previous eras along with the bigs.. (and i only mentioned A FEW guys from 96'-98, not even the best SG's either).
.

Cocaine80s

01-15-2015, 05:25 AM

Kobe>jordan

dunksby

01-15-2015, 05:27 AM

You only highlighted 3 guys, so that's still a lot of SG's that DO send shivers down your spine.

Also, Eddie Jones, Ray Allen, and Nick Anderson would all be top 10 SG's in today's game, and all were noted defenders.

I'd reply now but you are gonna edit your post and add another paragraph to it so I will wait.

3ball

01-15-2015, 05:29 AM

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MJ huge quickness mismatch for Garnett:

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/5-02-2015/sj1ap2.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/5-02-2015/3IMNP6.gif

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Michael_Jordan_Dunks_On_Tim_Du_c637e9b63274127bb96 6a04f34e07da9.gif

***KG and MJ both played SF in 2002 - in their first meeting when MJ was a Wizard, they were matched up SF vs. SF for the entire game.. MJ scored 35 on Garnett in every way imaginable from the opening tip - at the 4:00 mark, Jordan scores on Garnett for 5 consecutive possessions, with the announcers getting more excited each time:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=embqhggoep4

Lebron was never guarded by a prime Garnett.. I doubt he would have the quickness to make it a huge mismatch like MJ did.. After all, guys like Boris Diaw, Gordon Hayward fare well against Lebron defensively..

Kobe also never went head-to-head with prime Garnett either.. He wouldn't be strong of explosive enough to take advantage of him like MJ does above, so Kobe wouldn't have anything to counter KG's length, similar to a Tayshaun Prince.
.

Smoke117

01-15-2015, 05:32 AM

deja vu

01-15-2015, 05:39 AM

Kobe>jordan
5>6

3ball

01-15-2015, 05:45 AM

Apparently you have a wide definition of great.

i could have mentioned average defenders like reggie miller, allan houston, jim jackson, steve smith, jerry stackhouse, jeff hornacek and isiah rider - there are a ton of average defenders like these guys in today's game.

and other than isiah rider, all these guys would be top 10 SG's in today's game.

but instead of mentioning these guys, i made sure that all the guys i mentioned in OP were very good defenders (and Jones and Augmon were great defenders).... didn't even include drexler, but even without him, mid-late 90's SG's easily crush today's crop.

also, kobe's best defense came his first 3-4 years in the league... just like mcgrady - while they were their lightest and quickest.

Smoke117

01-15-2015, 05:55 AM

i could have mentioned average defenders like reggie miller, allan houston, jim jackson, steve smith, jerry stackhouse, jeff hornacek and isiah rider - there are a ton of average defenders like these guys in today's game.

and other than isiah rider, all these guys would be top 10 SG's in today's game.

but instead of mentioning these guys, i made sure that all the guys i mentioned in OP were very good defenders (and Jones and Augmon were great defenders).... didn't even include drexler, but even without him, mid-late 90's SG's easily crush today's crop.

also, kobe's best defense came his first 3-4 years in the league... just like mcgrady - while they were their lightest and quickest.

Oh I agree with that part...but it had nothing to do with them being lighter or quicker and everything to do with effort.

3ball

01-15-2015, 06:02 AM

when i look at the list, i see less than 5 SG's from today's game that i would say are "good" defenders.

and some of the top SG's in the league today are complete aids defensively (wade, harden).
.

SamuraiSWISH

01-15-2015, 06:06 AM

Jordan and Kobe's relevant years didnt overlap....
True.

35 year old MJ gave 19 year old Kobe the BIDNESS in that 1998 ASG though. No questions asked. They guarded each other, Kobe tried to go at him and it wasn't like from a physical ability stand point they both weren't capable that season. MJ was seasoned, but lacked his prime level hops / quickness. Kobe had the physical ability but obviously not the intelligence, and refinement.

But it was the most equal footing we would see from them taking each other on.

Which wasn't the case however with prime 23 / 24 year old Kobe v.s. ancient 39 / 40 year old Jordan ... who unlike 35 year old versions of himself had no physical ability. Just skill, and craftiness.

3ball

01-15-2015, 06:13 AM

True.

35 year old MJ gave 19 year old Kobe the BIDNESS in that 1998 ASG though. No questions asked. They guarded each other, Kobe tried to go at him and it wasn't like from a physical ability stand point they both weren't capable that season. MJ was seasoned, but lacked his prime level hops / quickness. Kobe had the physical ability but obviously not the intelligence, and refinement.

But it was the most equal footing we would see from them taking each other on.

Which wasn't the case however with prime 23 / 24 year old Kobe v.s. ancient 39 / 40 year old Jordan ... who unlike 35 year old versions of himself had no physical ability. Just skill, and craftiness.
agreed.

jordan got 89 dunks as a 35 year-old in 1998, good for top 5% in the league... but when he came back 3 years later as a Wizard, he got 20 dunks each season, good for top 50%... :(

3ball

01-15-2015, 06:24 AM

Oh I agree with that part.

only that part?

you don't think eddie jones, latrell sprewell, nick anderson, clyde drexler, doug christie, ray allen, michael finley, kendall gill, and derrick mckey are good defenders?

which SG's from today's game are better defenders than any of the guys from 1996 that i just listed?

SamuraiSWISH

01-15-2015, 06:29 AM

which SG's from today's game are better defenders than any of the guys from 1996 that i just listed?

Klay is probably the only one who could hang defensively with those guys you have listed, and that's about it.

Right now is BY FAR the weakest era of shooting guards. Offensively, and especially on defense.

SF is super legit however. With great defenders like Butler, Leonard and Paul George. And then true superstars like LeBron, Durant, and Melo.

3ball

01-15-2015, 06:37 AM

Klay is probably the only one who could hang defensively with those guys you have listed, and that's about it.

Right now is BY FAR the weakest era of shooting guards. Offensively, and especially on defense.

SF is super legit however. With great defenders like Butler, Leonard and Paul George. And then true superstars like LeBron, Durant, and Melo.
Butler and Leonard are great defenders... that's just two though.. easily matched by any other year or era.

Ditto on the superstars - every era has 2-3 superstars at the SF spot... the 90's is far deeper at the SF spot, and the 80's is actually the golden age of SF's (a rarely discussed fact)...

80's of course ruled the big men too - the 80's was the golden era for frontcourts period.

Btw, people keep mentioning Paul George in these discussions to help today's era keep up - but he's hurt now, and won't come back the same - it happens - Reggie Lewis and Richard Dumas were the same type of rising star before their careers were cut short.

JebronLames

01-15-2015, 07:36 AM

That was entertaining lol kucoc chucking. Lol kobe choked on those free throws.

dunksby

01-15-2015, 07:39 AM

9erempiree

01-15-2015, 07:43 AM

Does the term "Kobe Stopper" mean anything to you guys and gals? Kobe popularized the defensive specialist in the league. Guys who were designed to only stop him during the 3peat era. They knew Shaq was going to get his but how are they going to stop Kobe. Enters the defensive specialists, who play SF too. Diaws, Bowens, Battiers of world who's only sole purpose is to defend. They spend all their energy to this specific task.

There were no defensive specialists in Jordan's era and there are very few of them today compared to the previous era.

9erempiree

01-15-2015, 07:46 AM

This is how good Bryant was against great defensive players. He routinely scores on them with ease.

How does he even make the shot with this kind of defense that is only seen against Bryant. Rather than going for the ball Battier just blocks his vision instead.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3f/Kobe_Bryant_Shane_Battier.jpg
http://cdn-jpg.si.com/sites/default/files/si/2009/writers/chris_ballard/05/14/kobe/ko/be//kobe-battier2.jpg
http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2012/0613/nba_g_kobe11_200.jpg

9erempiree

01-15-2015, 07:51 AM

Here are Jordan Era defensive players.....

http://www.wbrz.com/images/news/2013-08/ehlo_302421.jpg
http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/y%20NBA%20etc/y%20Little%20Big%20Men%20n%20Giants/0%20Little%20Big%20Men/Tyrone%20Muggsy%20Bogues/bogues.jpg
http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/sports/thetoydepartment/mikelikesmike.jpg

:facepalm @ this kind of defending. You won't see any player today bite at those fakes.
http://img.pandawhale.com/post-22318-Michael-Jordan-ball-fake-gif-SvYu.gif
http://i.minus.com/ibfTvKlJmUQeKZ.gif

Brent Price who?
http://i.minus.com/ibzOGx9PPvCrj0.gif

3ball

01-15-2015, 08:36 AM

.

MJ destroying Shane Battier

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/6e9edcb2ecab557b8d6482a328924ab8.gif

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/5b0d7e10d0111d7168ed87877fe57429.gif

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/468618065082751c07e3ab2cdabdeae3.gif... Off-Ball Passing

battier is garbage for jordan.. way too slow... tailor-made... kobe just made it look way harder than it should have.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Z6rTb2m-Uw&t=2m17s
.

G0ATbe

01-15-2015, 08:52 AM

So....I suppose the point of this thread was to show Jordan was able to score a few points on teenagerbe?:facepalm

Lets have a look at all the blocks they racked up while guarding eachother

Kobe guarding MJ: http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view1/2254892/kobe-block-jordan-mad-o.gifhttp://stream1.gifsoup.com/view1/2254892/kobe-block-jordan-mad-o.gifhttp://stream1.gifsoup.com/view1/2254892/kobe-block-jordan-mad-o.gifhttp://stream1.gifsoup.com/view1/2254892/kobe-block-jordan-mad-o.gifhttp://stream1.gifsoup.com/view1/2254892/kobe-block-jordan-mad-o.gifhttp://stream1.gifsoup.com/view1/2254892/kobe-block-jordan-mad-o.gifhttp://stream1.gifsoup.com/view1/2254892/kobe-block-jordan-mad-o.gifhttp://stream1.gifsoup.com/view1/2254892/kobe-block-jordan-mad-o.gif

MJ guarding Kobe:

And it's obvoius that Kobe would guard Jordan routinely while MJ was too afraid to guard Kobe for even a moment. (see 55 point game)

3ball

01-15-2015, 09:08 AM

And it's obvoius that Kobe would guard Jordan routinely while MJ was too afraid to guard Kobe for even a moment. (see 55 point game)

Every bucket i posted of MJ on Kobe was from 1996-1998 - i actually didn't include his Wizards years to save space.. Kobe's only scored on Jordan 4 times ever, including his Wizards years.

Kobe struggled with Doug Christie, Anthony Peeler, Shawn Marion, many more - all guys that Jordan dropped 40 on with ease.

3ball

01-15-2015, 10:20 AM

Does the term "Kobe Stopper" mean anything to you guys and gals? Kobe popularized the defensive specialist in the league. Guys who were designed to only stop him during the 3peat era.

It means that one guy could stop Kobe and limit his efficiency - it didn't take an entire team... that's what the Jordan Rules were for.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2v0LOhjsJs

GimmeThat

01-15-2015, 11:15 AM

"soonner or later, everyone gets compared to Wilt"

3ball

01-15-2015, 11:17 AM

Way more 2-way players in previous eras...

3ball

01-15-2015, 11:20 AM

"soonner or later, everyone gets compared to Wilt"
:confusedshrug:

i can't argue with that

3ball

01-15-2015, 11:23 AM

Off the top of my head Tony Allen, Afflalo, George, Thabo, Butler,Ariza, Iggy, that's for right now and if we are going by 2000-2015 the list would get much longer.

Tony Allen = Bobby Phills

Aaron Afllalo = Doug Christie, Nate McMillan

Paul George = Scottie Pippen, Gary Payton

Thabo = Shandon Anderson, George Lynch, Derrick McKey

Jimmy Butler = Eddie Jones

Trevor Ariza = Michael Finley

Iggy = Rodman

All the guys on the right are from 1996-1998.. 2nd 3-peat only... I like 96'-98' a lot better - the quality was so much higher, i feel bad even comparing them all... i mean, can we really even compare Thabo to two-way player and super-athlete Derrick McKey?... it's not even close.

I didn't include many two-way players from 1996 like Jordan, Penny, Grant Hill, Sprewell, Drexler, Mitch Richmond... there were FAR more two-way players in previous eras.
.

tpols

01-15-2015, 11:40 AM

Kobes competition at SG

https://38.media.tumblr.com/fb92d9fc8aedbb02fb2ebcbe9957349d/tumblr_mx62tdzVTz1rgx7ico1_500.gif

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/webroot/animatedgifs4/1130127_o.gif

http://i44.tinypic.com/10wr9er.gif

http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Ray-Allen-Hits-Three-to-Force-OT-Game-6-NBA-Finals.gif

Jordans top competition at SG

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2005/06/24/sports/24starks.jpg

after a long day at shop rite

http://jkwest.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/ReggieChoke.jpeg

http://cdn.fansided.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/178/files/2013/10/content12_90steamDrexler2.jpg

^two guys that couldnt dribble (with both hands)

ImKobe

01-15-2015, 11:53 AM

Kobe wasn't even a starter when he faced Bulls MJ in 98, who was playing at an MVP level. Kobe was what, 19?

All I'll remember is him sending Jordan to retirement with 55 points :lebronamazed:, where MJ didn't even dare to guard his ass lol.

3ball

01-15-2015, 12:31 PM

two guys that couldnt dribble (with both hands)

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/4859abb3d05a00fee786a5fc2c5ec4d1.gif

Drexler with the right-to-left crossover in traffic, crazy lefty finish... perfect navigational efficiency (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=360900).. how many guys today are covering ground like that - that greek kid might have the Elgin-Step (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=354072) down but he doesn't have this kind of shot-creating skill or ability.

Grant Hill, Penny Hardaway, Clyde Drexler, Gary Payton, Mitch Richmond, Latrell Sprewell, Eddie Jones, Ray Allen (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCOJQOMEJ4Y)... that's just from 1996-1998 yet it's enough to destroy Kobe's competition... and I barely got started.

KobesFinger

01-15-2015, 12:46 PM

3ball

01-15-2015, 01:05 PM

McGrady, Wade, Iverson, Allen, Carter, Pierce and Redd. Then you could include LeBron in that

Yeah, i don't think that list comes close to Scottie Pippen, Grant Hill, Penny Hardaway, Clyde Drexler, Gary Payton, Mitch Richmond, Latrell Sprewell, and Eddie Jones.

also, the above list only covers 1996-1998, whereas yours covers at least 5 years (and you had to include Redd).

btw, your list is further weakened since Iverson and Allen can both be grouped with Jordan - they were both 20 ppg scorers by their 2nd season in 1998, they both remained the same size their entire career (so their physical man-to-man defensive ability is the same), and they both played MJ extensively those years from being in the same conference.

Wade's Rings

01-15-2015, 01:07 PM

Scottie Pippen and Jordan were on the same team.

Remember when Jordan got locked up by Gary Payton?

3ball

01-15-2015, 01:17 PM

Scottie Pippen and Jordan were on the same team.

doesn't matter - we're comparing the overall level of defensive talent and two-way talent at the wing position in 1996-1998 vs. any other era or time period.

i should include Iverson, Kobe, and Garnett with the 96'-98' group since all three made the All-Star Team in 1998.

But regardless, Scottie Pippen, Grant Hill, Penny Hardaway, Clyde Drexler, Gary Payton, Mitch Richmond, Latrell Sprewell, and Eddie Jones is more than enough anyway.

Remember when Jordan got locked up by Gary Payton?

No, I stopped watching after the Bulls got a 3-0 lead in the series.
.

KobesFinger

01-15-2015, 01:21 PM

Yeah, i don't think that list comes close to Scottie Pippen, Grant Hill, Penny Hardaway, Clyde Drexler, Gary Payton, Mitch Richmond, Latrell Sprewell, and Eddie Jones.

also, the above list only covers 1996-1998, whereas yours covers at least 5 years (and you had to include Redd).

btw, your list is further weakened since Iverson and Allen can both be grouped with Jordan - they were both 20 ppg scorers by their 2nd season in 1998, they both remained the same size their entire career (so their physical man-to-man defensive ability is the same), and they both played MJ extensively those years from being in the same conference.

How are you going to include his teammate as his competition? My list is 03-05, and what do you mean I also had to include Redd? Was he not a 2 guard in the 2000s?

And as I've said I could include LeBron and he's the best player in either list, and I forgot Melo/Durant.

Papaya Petee

01-15-2015, 01:26 PM

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/4859abb3d05a00fee786a5fc2c5ec4d1.gif

Drexler with the right-to-left crossover in traffic, crazy lefty finish... perfect navigational efficiency (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=360900).. how many guys today are covering ground like that - that greek kid might have the Elgin-Step (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=354072) down but he doesn't have this kind of shot-creating skill or ability.

Grant Hill, Penny Hardaway, Clyde Drexler, Gary Payton, Mitch Richmond, Latrell Sprewell, Eddie Jones, Ray Allen (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCOJQOMEJ4Y)... that's just from 1996-1998 yet it's enough to destroy Kobe's competition... and I barely got started.
Please tell me youre joking. None of those guys at their best are even close to a Peak Wade Lebron, Durant or McGrady. Even peak Iverson and Carter are just as good as Peak Drexler or Payton. Penny Richmond Sprewell Jones nor Miller are even in the same tier as Wade Durant Lebron Tmac Iverson or Carter. Theyre in the Ray Allen Michael Redd Peak level.

The SG SF era from 2000-2010 is better than the 1990-2000 era and if you can't see that I don't know what to say to you. Jordans the best, but then you have Kobe Lebron Wade TMac Durant who are all superior to the 2nd best wing from the 90s, whether its Drexler or Pippen or Mullin or whoever.

Wade's Rings

01-15-2015, 01:27 PM

No, I stopped watching after the Bulls got a 3-0 lead in the series.
.

You missed the GOAT getting locked up.

Straight_Ballin

01-15-2015, 01:30 PM

All I took from this is that if Kobe's peak play occurred in Jordan's peak era, he would do decent, but no where near what Jordan could do.

riseagainst

01-15-2015, 01:35 PM

http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/sports/thetoydepartment/mikelikesmike.jpg

:roll:
:roll:

tpols

01-15-2015, 01:46 PM

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/4859abb3d05a00fee786a5fc2c5ec4d1.gif

Drexler with the right-to-left crossover in traffic, crazy lefty finish... perfect navigational efficiency (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=360900).. how many guys today are covering ground like that - that greek kid might have the Elgin-Step (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=354072) down but he doesn't have this kind of shot-creating skill or ability.

Grant Hill, Penny Hardaway, Clyde Drexler, Gary Payton, Mitch Richmond, Latrell Sprewell, Eddie Jones, Ray Allen (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCOJQOMEJ4Y)... that's just from 1996-1998 yet it's enough to destroy Kobe's competition... and I barely got started.

Gary Payton is not a shooting guard.

But aside from that, 2000s era top tier talent >>> 90s by quite a bit

Dwayne wade
Allen iverson
Tracy mcgrady
Vince carter
Manu ginobili
Ray allen

All with their peak/primes in the 2000s.. 90s guys past Clyde were bums in comparison.

3ball

01-15-2015, 01:49 PM

How are you going to include his teammate as his competition? My list is 03-05, and what do you mean I also had to include Redd? Was he not a 2 guard in the 2000s?

And as I've said I could include LeBron and he's the best player in either list, and I forgot Melo/Durant.

Pippen is included, because we're comparing ALL wing talent from the 1996-1998 period to other periods... we're comparing eras.

btw, if your list is from 03-05', then you can't include durant... you can include lebron/melo, but they are only rookies in 2004, and not all-star-caliber - lebron shot 48% TS in 2004 and missed the playoffs.

and if you are going to use 2nd year players, then i can use Kobe, who was an all-star and in his 2nd season in 1998, while Iverson was averaging 24 ppg.

1996 Scottie Pippen................ 2005 Lebron James
1996 Grant Hill...................... 2003 Tracy McGrady
1996 Penny Hardaway............ 2005 Dwayne Wade
1996 Clyde Drexler................ 2005 Carmelo Anthony
1996 Gary Payton.................. 2005 Vince Carter
1998 Kobe Bryant............ ......2005 Paul Pierce
1998 Allen Iverson.................2003 Allen Iverson
1996 Mitch Richmond.............. 2005 Gilbert Arenas
1998 Latrell Spreewell.............2005 Michael Redd
1998 Eddie Jones................... ?????

The only matchup your list wins is McGrady and Iverson.

KobesFinger

01-15-2015, 01:55 PM

Pippen is included, because we're comparing ALL wing talent from the 1996-1998 period to other periods... we're comparing eras.

btw, if your list is from 03-05', then you can't include durant... you can include lebron/melo, but they are only rookies in 2004, and not all-star-caliber - lebron shot 48% TS in 2004 and missed the playoffs.

and if you are going to use 2nd year players, then i can use Kobe, who was an all-star and in his 2nd season in 1998, while Iverson was averaging 24 ppg.

1996 Scottie Pippen................ 2005 Lebron James
1996 Grant Hill...................... 2003 Tracy McGrady
1996 Penny Hardaway............ 2005 Dwayne Wade
1996 Clyde Drexler................ 2005 Carmelo Anthony
1996 Gary Payton.................. 2005 Vince Carter
1998 Kobe Bryant............ ......2005 Paul Pierce
1998 Allen Iverson.................2003 Allen Iverson
1996 Mitch Richmond.............. 2005 Gilbert Arenas
1998 Latrell Spreewell.............2005 Michael Redd
1998 Eddie Jones................... ?????

The only matchup your list wins is McGrady and Iverson.

05 LeBron averaged 27/7/7, better than anybody in the 90s. And are you going to really sit there and say 2nd year Kobe is better than prime Paul Pierce? Kobe was still a bench player in 1998, if you include him on your list that shows how weak the 90s was in terms of swingmen

3ball

01-15-2015, 01:58 PM

Gary Payton is not a shooting guard.

But aside from that, 2000s era top tier talent >>> 90s by quite a bit

Dwayne wade
Allen iverson
Tracy mcgrady
Vince carter
Manu ginobili
Ray allen

Dwayne wade........ Scottie Pippen
Allen iverson......... Gary Payton
Tracy mcgrady...... Grant Hill
Vince carter.......... Clyde Drexler
Manu ginobili ........ Mitch Richmond
Ray allen.............. Latrell Sprewell

How is the right side not better, especially considering Jordan played against Ray Allen and Iverson extensively during his 2nd three-peat - the inclusion of those players weakens the 03'-05' list, since they could have been in the 96'-98 list too.
.

3ball

01-15-2015, 02:06 PM

05 LeBron averaged 27/7/7, better than anybody in the 90s.

anytime i think of lebron in the triangle, i feel like he'd be a cancer in that offense, but even if you put him over Pippen and put Pierce over Kobe, your list still only wins 4 of the spots.

And are you going to really sit there and say 2nd year Kobe is better than prime Paul Pierce? Kobe was still a bench player in 1998, if you include him on your list that shows how weak the 90s was in terms of swingmen

Of course Kobe was better - he was voted as a starter in the all-star game and has always been a more dynamic player than Pierce.. anytime they both had the same playing time, kobe was way better.

he just wasn't getting starter minutes from his conservative coach Dell Harris at the time because the Lakers were THAT stacked with experienced all-stars already in the starting guard spots (Eddie Jones and Van Exel.
.

tpols

01-15-2015, 02:31 PM

Dwayne wade........ Scottie Pippen
Allen iverson......... Gary Payton
Tracy mcgrady...... Grant Hill
Vince carter.......... Clyde Drexler
Manu ginobili ........ Mitch Richmond
Ray allen.............. Latrell Sprewell

How is the right side not better, especially considering Jordan played against Ray Allen and Iverson extensively during his 2nd three-peat - the inclusion of those players weakens the 03'-05' list, since they could have been in the 96'-98 list too.
.
Kobe played against prime Iverson 00 to 06. Prime ray Allen 00 to 08 and beyond. Mj playing against them two years doesn't qualify them for his era. The bulk of their primes and peaks came in the 2000s.

You including pippen and Payton showcases the fact that you can't list any SG's that can compete with 2000s.. And if I add 00s point guards and small forwards

prime LeBron James >>> prime scottie pippen (which shouldn't even be included since Jordan gained from his being in the league.. He was not competition)

Prime Chris Paul, Jason kidd > Gary payton

Dwayne Wade >> Clyde drexler

Manu, tmac, Iverson, Pierce >> mitch Richmond, grant Hill, John starks

Ray Allen > Reggie miller

2000s perimeter talent >> 90s perimeter talent

kuniva_dAMiGhTy

01-15-2015, 02:37 PM

Please tell me youre joking. None of those guys at their best are even close to a Peak Wade Lebron, Durant or McGrady. Even peak Iverson and Carter are just as good as Peak Drexler or Payton. Penny Richmond Sprewell Jones nor Miller are even in the same tier as Wade Durant Lebron Tmac Iverson or Carter. Theyre in the Ray Allen Michael Redd Peak level.

The SG SF era from 2000-2010 is better than the 1990-2000 era and if you can't see that I don't know what to say to you. Jordans the best, but then you have Kobe Lebron Wade TMac Durant who are all superior to the 2nd best wing from the 90s, whether its Drexler or Pippen or Mullin or whoever.

Are you high? Peak Hardaway and Richmond were amazing. Heck MJ said after him, Richmond was not only the most underrated perimeter player, but the best of the 90's. Iverson, Carter, Tmac, Wade and Durant were/are great - no doubt - but to claim that Drexler, Richmond, Penny, or GP weren't even in their league is not only ignorant, but one of the dumbest statements in ISH history.

Learn the game, or kindly shut the f*ck up.

Papaya Petee

01-15-2015, 04:35 PM

Are you high? Peak Hardaway and Richmond were amazing. Heck MJ said after him, Richmond was not only the most underrated perimeter player, but the best of the 90's. Iverson, Carter, Tmac, Wade and Durant were/are great - no doubt - but to claim that Drexler, Richmond, Penny, or GP weren't even in their league is not only ignorant, but one of the dumbest statements in ISH history.

Learn the game, or kindly shut the f*ck up.
Dont tell me to learn the game then proceed to say something as dumb as this. Penny had 2-3 star seasons in his career, with his best season being 22/7/4 which isnt even CLOSE to a peak Wade TMac Durant. 2nd year Wade was better than Pennys best year.

Richmonds best year he topped out at 26/4/4 45% FG which once again isn't at the level of what Wade T-Mac or Durant did at their peaks. He was a low 20s a game guy on average efficiency for his career. Average passer average rebounder average defender.I dont care what Jordan said.

Gary Payton and Clyde Drexler aren't a tier below these guys, probably, but still never proved as dominant in their peaks as Wade TMac or Durant. Payton is only in this category of players because of his defensive impact.

My original point wasnt that they arent great wing players, my point was that 2000s perimeter players are better than the 90s. If you made a top 10 list it would look like this.
1.) Jordan
2.) Lebron
3.) Kobe
4.) Wade
5.) Durant
6.) Drexler
7.) Peyton
8.) AI
9.) T-Mac
10.) Pierce/Carter/Richmond/Allen
He named players like Sprewell or Reggie or Eddie Jones and made it seem like they were superstars, when in reality they were Joe Johnson level and I wouldn't even take them over Prime Manu or Michael Redd

tpols

01-15-2015, 05:03 PM

kuniva_dAMiGhTy

01-15-2015, 05:19 PM

Richmond has multiple defensive/offensive All NBA teams. Joe Johnson is a silly comparison.

Dont tell me to learn the game then proceed to say something as dumb as this. Penny had 2-3 star seasons in his career, with his best season being 22/7/4 which isnt even CLOSE to a peak Wade TMac Durant. 2nd year Wade was better than Pennys best year.

It looks "dumb", because you never saw those players amid their pinnacle. Like Mcgrady, Penny's career was cut short, but you neglect to mention he ALSO had postseason runs of 31/6/4 on 47/72/37 and 23/6/5 on 47/74/37. At his best, in the playoffs, Penny was the caliber of player TMac was, and certainly with the likes of AI, Pierce, Wade, and Carter.

Richmonds best year he topped out at 26/4/4 45% FG

Correct, along with elite shooting (43% 3PT / 86% FT) and defense. Keep in mind he did this when perimeter rules weren't as lax and 3PT shooting wasn't necessarily authorized. Dude would be even better today which once again further proves my point. He is without question in the same tier as those guys. You'd have to be completely oblivious to concede otherwise.

Gary Payton and Clyde Drexler aren't a tier below these guys, probably, but still never proved as dominant in their peaks as Wade TMac or Durant.

As dominant? Clyde at his absolute best is on the level of any version of TMac and Wade if we account for defensive principles and playmaking. Durant I'm not sure because of the efficiency, but again, Clyde makes up for that w/ his 10+ years of consistent and superstar, quality brand of basketball.

My original point wasnt that they arent great wing players

And you are wrong.

Payton and Drexler ARE great. They're among the Top 50 and best at their position.

3ball

01-15-2015, 06:42 PM

1.) Jordan
2.) Lebron
3.) Kobe
4.) Wade
5.) Durant
6.) Drexler
7.) Peyton
8.) AI
9.) T-Mac

Durant only played 3 seasons in the 2000's.. so that means Magic, Bird, and Dominique should be included in the 90's.

Magic made the Finals in 1991 and All-Star Game in 1992... Bird was 21/10/7 in 1992... and Dominique had the best season of his career in 1993 (29.9 ppg, 7 rebs).. I would take the early 90's version of Magic, Bird, and Dominique over Iverson, Tmac, Drexler, Payton and Durant... I think that goes without saying.

The list above also ignores Pippen, Penny and Grant Hill, who should all be above AI, Payton, and Tmac.

Top wing talent from the 90s matches up with any era:

Jordan
Magic
Bird
Barkley
Dominique
Pippen
Drexler
Grant Hill
Penny
Gary Payton

The list above doesn't need to include Allen Iverson, Ray Allen, Mitch Richmond, Latrell Sprewell, or Eddie Jones - just not good enough to make this 90's list.

KobesFinger

01-15-2015, 06:43 PM

Barkley? Might as well include Hakeem.

Who are the 10 best SGs and SFs of the Jordan era?

andgar923

01-15-2015, 06:45 PM

A while ago, I did a count for all of the possessions they guarded each other.

Now to be fair, neither of them guarded each other in their primes. Either MJ was old and Kobe too young, or MJ was too old and Kobe close to his prime. In any case, Mj scored on Kobe more than vice versa. They both had good plays on both ends on each other. But what stood out the most was how MJ was able to contest and challenge Kobe more times than Kobe contested and challenged MJ. MJ was able to get better looks and get more separation than Kobe. Even when MJ was a Wiz and near 40, he was able to stay in front of Kobe and force Kobe to difficult situations (not just shots). When Kobe guarded MJ it appeared as tho MJ managed to get more separation and get easier looks.

Yes Kobe blocked MJ in the all star game... that was a play, we can get that outta the way since we know somebody is gonna repost that gif a million times.

But overall, MJ got better looks and scored more on Kobe than Kobe scored on MJ.

Videos of their matchup are available online if somebody wants to recheck what I posted. Go ahead and feel free, you'll come away with similar conclusion.

3ball

01-15-2015, 08:03 PM

Who are the 10 best SGs and SFs of the Jordan era?

Best SG's:

Michael Jordan
Clyde Drexler
Reggie Miller
Joe Dumars
Penny Hardaway
Mitch Richmond
Ronaldo Blackmon
Dennis Johnson
Alvin Robertson
Latrell Sprewell

Honorable Mention: Reggie Lewis, Fat Lever, Byron Scott, Dale Ellis, Derrick McKey, Allan Houston, Eddie Jones, Jeff Malone, Ricky Pierce, Steve Smith, Jerry Stackhouse, Ron Harper.

Best SF's

Larry Bird
Dr. J
Dominique Wilkins
Scottie Pippen
Bernard King
Adrian Dantley
Alex English
James Worthy
Chris Mullin
Grant Hill

Honorable Mention: Shareef Abdur-Rahim, Glen Rice, Kiki Vandeweghe, Mark Aguirre, Glenn Robinson, Jamaal Mashburn, Detlef Schrempf, Tom Gugliotta, Sean Elliot, Richard Dumas

Defensive Specialists (partial list): Michael Cooper, Dennis Rodman, George Lynch, Gerald Wilkins, Paul Pressey, Jerome Kersey, Xavier McDaniels, Michael Finley, Stacey Augmon, Clifford Robinson, Doug Christie, Nate McMillan, Bobby Phills, Anthony Mason

Smoke117

01-15-2015, 08:06 PM

What is with you and this Michael Finley nonsense, 3ball? HE WAS NEVER A DEFENSIVE SPECIALIST EVER, PERIOD. You have him as a "great" defender during the Bulls 2nd threepeat too...:biggums: He was awful defensively in his first few seasons and never more than an average defender at his BEST. (IF THAT)

KobesFinger

01-15-2015, 08:07 PM

Best SG's:

Michael Jordan
Clyde Drexler
Reggie Miller
Joe Dumars
Penny Hardaway
Mitch Richmond
Ronaldo Blackmon
Dennis Johnson
Alvin Robertson
Latrell Sprewell

Honorable Mention: Reggie Lewis, Fat Lever, Byron Scott, Dale Ellis, Derrick McKey, Allan Houston, Eddie Jones, Jeff Malone, Ricky Pierce, Steve Smith, Jerry Stackhouse, Ron Harper.

Best SF's

Larry Bird
Dr. J
Dominique Wilkins
Scottie Pippen
Bernard King
Adrian Dantley
Alex English
James Worthy
Chris Mullin
Grant Hill

Honorable Mention: Shareef Abdur-Rahim, Glen Rice, Kiki Vandeweghe, Mark Aguirre, Glenn Robinson, Jamaal Mashburn, Detlef Schrempf, Tom Gugliotta, Sean Elliot, Richard Dumas

Defensive Specialists (partial list): Michael Cooper, Dennis Rodman, George Lynch, Gerald Wilkins, Paul Pressey, Jerome Kersey, Xavier McDaniels, Michael Finley, Stacey Augmon, Clifford Robinson, Doug Christie, Nate McMillan, Bobby Phills, Anthony Mason

I should've been more clear, I meant top 10 of both in one list. And by Jordan era I don't mean 84-98, more like 87 or 88 to 98. It was Bird and Magic's league in the mid 80s

tpols

01-15-2015, 08:08 PM

andgar923

01-15-2015, 08:21 PM

Kinda silly arguing over which era had better 2 guards.

Players from the 80s and up to the mid 90s played a different style, the game itself was played differently. The 2 guards from the 80s and 90s mostly played within the system and moved around more without the ball. They also played with their back to the defender more often than today's players, and many will argue that they were more skilled in different areas than today's players.

As we've shown repeatedly in this board, the league changed the rules to cater to perimeter players. I highly doubt that somebody like Wade would be as successful in the past, the same applies to a large amount of today's 'stars'. The main reason past wingmen weren't scoring as much as today's isn't because they wren't as talented. It's because the game as a whole was played differently, plain and simple.

KobesFinger

01-15-2015, 08:31 PM

How do you figure Wade wouldn't be a great player?

3ball

01-15-2015, 08:41 PM

So... If you tier the shooting guards its

Tier 1
MJ

Tier 2
Kobe, Wade
Clyde
Manu

Tier 3
Allen Iverson, Vince Carter,
Tracy McGrady, Ray allen
Penny Hardaway

Tier 4
Mitch Richmond, Joe dumas, spreewell
Joe Johnson, rip hamilton
Reggie Miller, Blackmon, alvin

Ginobili is way too high - two-way players like Joe Dumars, Ronaldo Blackmon, and Alvin Robertson are better... Penny was obviously better too, and i'd take Richmond over him as well.

Also, Joe Johnson and Rip Hamilton should be on a 5th or 6th tier with Eddie Jones and Allan Houston, not up there with Reggie Miller, Joe Dumars, and Mitch Richmond.

Btw, Vince Carter is a losing stat-padder, just like Mitch Richmond, but a worse defender... he's gets overrated a ton due to his dunking... and there's no way i would take Vince over Joe Dumars or Reggie Miller either - that's ridiculous.... Ray Allen isn't better than Richmond, Dumars or Miller either..
.

3ball

01-15-2015, 08:43 PM

Who are your top 10 SG's and SF's in Jordan's career?

Best SG's 1984-1998:

Michael Jordan
Clyde Drexler
Reggie Miller
Joe Dumars
Penny Hardaway
Mitch Richmond
Ronaldo Blackmon
Dennis Johnson
Alvin Robertson
Latrell Sprewell

Honorable Mention: Reggie Lewis, Fat Lever, Byron Scott, Dale Ellis, Derrick McKey, Allan Houston, Eddie Jones, Jeff Malone, Ricky Pierce, Michael Finley, Steve Smith, Jerry Stackhouse, Ron Harper.

Best SF's 1984-1998

Larry Bird
Dr. J
Dominique Wilkins
Scottie Pippen
Bernard King
Adrian Dantley
Alex English
James Worthy
Chris Mullin
Grant Hill

Honorable Mention: Shareef Abdur-Rahim, Glen Rice, Kiki Vandeweghe (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=360034), Mark Aguirre, Glenn Robinson, Jamaal Mashburn, Detlef Schrempf, Tom Gugliotta, Sean Elliot, Richard Dumas

Defensive Specialists (partial list): Michael Cooper, Dennis Rodman, George Lynch, Gerald Wilkins, Paul Pressey, Jerome Kersey, Xavier McDaniels, Stacey Augmon, Clifford Robinson, Doug Christie, Nate McMillan, Bobby Phills, Anthony Mason
.

3ball

01-15-2015, 08:49 PM

^^^^^^^^^ took out Michael Finley from defensive specialists and moved him to honorable mention SG's.

tpols

01-15-2015, 08:59 PM

Ginobili is way too high - two-way players like Joe Dumars, Ronaldo Blackmon, and Alvin Robertson are better... Penny was obviously better too, and i'd take Richmond over him as well.

Also, Joe Johnson and Rip Hamilton should be on a 5th or 6th tier with Eddie Jones and Allan Houston, not up there with Reggie Miller, Joe Dumars, and Mitch Richmond.

Btw, Vince Carter is a losing stat-padder, just like Mitch Richmond, but a worse defender... he's gets overrated a ton due to his dunking... and there's no way i would take Vince over Joe Dumars or Reggie Miller either - that's ridiculous.... Ray Allen isn't better than Richmond, Dumars or Miller either..

Manu is one the best star defender of the 2000s impact wise.. In most defensive metrics he grades very high for a sg. You're exposing your ignorance by saying he wasn't a two way player.

Totally disagree on Vince carter.. Lots of stereotypes there.

As far as Joe Johnson and rip goes I agree Reggies better, but he just isn't on the tmac ray Allen Iverson Tier because of his one dimensional play.. Even ray Allen could handle the ball, playmake, finish, rebound and defend well.. Ray Allens a great shooter but he had a more well rounded game than Reggie.

knicksman

01-15-2015, 09:15 PM

we already knew youre a jordan dickrider OP.

3ball

01-15-2015, 09:25 PM

Manu is one the best star defender of the 2000s impact wise.. In most defensive metrics he grades very high for a sg. You're exposing your ignorance by saying he wasn't a two way player.

we don't have those type of defensive stats for Joe Dumars, Alvin Robertson or Ronaldo Blackmon - if we did, their stats would crush Ginobili's... All those guys destroy Ginobili as a defender, but we don't have the stats to show it.

also, it should be noted that RAPM doesn't work to compare players on different teams, because the players need to play the same role for accurate comparison, and no two players play the same role (i.e. Dikembe plays a different roles than Shaq... Bird played a different role than point guard Lebron, etc)... RAPM is only effective at comparing the impact of players on the same team, and even then the stat is fraught with error due to insufficient sample size.

KobesFinger

01-15-2015, 09:26 PM

we don't have those type of defensive stats for Joe Dumars, Alvin Robertson or Ronaldo Blackmon - if we did, their stats would crush Ginobili's... All those guys destroy Ginobili as a defender, but we don't have the stats to show it.

also, it should be noted that RAPM doesn't work to compare players on different teams, because the players need to play the same role for accurate comparison, and no two players play the same role (i.e. Dikembe plays a different roles than Shaq... Bird played a different role than point guard Lebron, etc)... RAPM is only effective at comparing the impact of players on the same team, and even then the stat is marginalized by insufficient sample size.

So why do you make such a big point of Jordan's RAPM in 96?

3ball

01-15-2015, 09:32 PM

So why do you make such a big point of Jordan's RAPM in 96?
because most people don't want to consider non-quantitative factors and they really think RAPM is a great tool, so i just use their arguments against them, since Jordan was #1 based on any metric, including rapm.

but i think rapm is hot garbage - any coach that uses the stat to trot lineups out there is saying "i don't understand basketball, but fortunately i don't have to, because the stats tell me what to do"... then just program a robot to coach.. :rolleyes:
.

andgar923

01-15-2015, 10:04 PM

How do you figure Wade wouldn't be a great player?
have you seen him play?

KobesFinger

01-15-2015, 10:07 PM

have you seen him play?

Have you? In his prime he had a good mid-range game and now has a post game. He's also a great passer, rebounder and defender

Smoke117

01-16-2015, 01:41 AM

^^^^^^^^^ took out Michael Finley from defensive specialists and moved him to honorable mention SG's.

Paul Pressey nor Jerome Kersey were defensive specialist either. (they were just plain good players in general) The fact that you took Finley off (and even had him on in the first place) because of someone's post (mine) goes to show you don't even know what the hell you are talking about. Oh you pretend well enough that you know everything...we all know about the many words you can type...but you are just a classic bullshitter.

Anyone can make your post: state a fact, post a list, post some gifs, make a miniscule opinion about something you already posted 30 times before - 3ball

Edit: ^^^ I almost forgot one last important item to make it an accurate 3ball post - swallow jordans throat yogurt.

3ball

01-16-2015, 02:31 AM

Paul Pressey nor Jerome Kersey were defensive specialist either. (they were just plain good players in general)

you're right.. both of these guys were good, 2-way players.

The fact that you took Finley off (and even had him on in the first place) because of someone's post (mine) goes to show you don't even know what the hell you are talking about.

Thinking about Finley made me realize the SF's are on a much higher level than the SG's, because Finley doesn't come close to making the SF honorable mentions (those are some nice SF's), but he can sneak in their at SG if someone's being generous.

3ball

01-16-2015, 03:35 AM

Best SG's 1984-1998:

Michael Jordan
Clyde Drexler
Reggie Miller
Joe Dumars
Penny Hardaway
Mitch Richmond
Ronaldo Blackmon
Dennis Johnson
Alvin Robertson
Latrell Sprewell

Honorable Mention: Reggie Lewis, Fat Lever, Byron Scott, Dale Ellis, Derrick McKey, Allan Houston, Eddie Jones, Jeff Malone, Ricky Pierce, Michael Finley, Steve Smith, Jerry Stackhouse, Ron Harper.

Best SF's 1984-1998

Larry Bird
Dr. J
Dominique Wilkins
Scottie Pippen
Bernard King
Adrian Dantley
Alex English
James Worthy
Chris Mullin
Grant Hill

Honorable Mention: Shareef Abdur-Rahim, Glen Rice, Kiki Vandeweghe (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=360034), Mark Aguirre, Glenn Robinson, Jamaal Mashburn, Detlef Schrempf, Tom Gugliotta, Sean Elliot, Richard Dumas

Defensive Specialists (partial list): Michael Cooper, Dennis Rodman, George Lynch, Gerald Wilkins, Paul Pressey, Jerome Kersey, Xavier McDaniels, Stacey Augmon, Clifford Robinson, Doug Christie, Nate McMillan, Bobby Phills, Anthony Mason

i started making a list for 2000-2014, and the SGs match up much better than the SF's.

I can only find 9 good SF's worthy of being on any type of "era" list, and one of them is Kawhi Leonard - apparently, it's been a very thin position.. i think the frontcourt positions in general are a lot thinner - more play-finisher/system-type players like Kawhi.
.

Smoke117

01-16-2015, 03:50 AM

you're right.. both of these guys were good, 2-way players.

Thinking about Finley made me realize the SF's are on a much higher level than the SG's, because Finley doesn't come close to making the SF honorable mentions (those are some nice SF's), but he can sneak in their at SG if someone's being generous.

Pretty words. Basically you knew adding so many players was bullshit...as people who knew better than you said so.

There is a reason 3ball leaves a bad taste in your mouth...

3ball

01-16-2015, 03:53 AM

.
Best SG's 1984-1998:

Michael Jordan
Clyde Drexler
Anfernee Hardaway
Joe Dumars
Sidney Moncrief
Alvin Robertson
Reggie Miller
Dennis Johnson
Ronaldo Blackman
Mitch Richmond

Honorable Mention: Reggie Lewis, Latrell Sprewell, Fat Lever, Jeff Hornacek, Byron Scott, Dale Ellis, Derrick McKey, Allan Houston, Eddie Jones, Jeff Malone, Ricky Pierce, Michael Finley, Steve Smith, Jerry Stackhouse, Ron Harper, Reggie Theus.

Best SF's 1984-1998

Larry Bird
Dr. J
Scottie Pippen
Dominique Wilkins
Bernard King
Adrian Dantley
Alex English
James Worthy
Chris Mullin
Grant Hill

Honorable Mention: Shareef Abdur-Rahim, Glen Rice, Kiki Vandeweghe (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=360034), Mark Aguirre, Glenn Robinson, Jamaal Mashburn, Detlef Schrempf, Tom Gugliotta, Sean Elliot, Richard Dumas

Defensive Specialists (partial list): Michael Cooper, Dennis Rodman, George Lynch, Gerald Wilkins, Paul Pressey, Stacey Augmon, Clifford Robinson, Doug Christie, Nate McMillan, Bobby Phills, Anthony Mason
.

3ball

01-16-2015, 03:54 AM

Pretty words. Basically you knew adding so many players was bullshit...as people who knew better than you said so.

There is a reason 3ball leaves a bad taste in your mouth...
if it's bullshit, why is finley the only thing you disagree with?

are you always this much of a nitpicker?

also, i think finley should be in there as a legit SG honorable mention anyway - he was a good 2-way player that had pretty high offensive win shares in his prime... and he was good enough to have a very long career.. long enough to successfully ring-chase with the Spurs at the end.

btw, why don't you make a list for 2000-2014 like the one i did for 1984-1998?
.

Smoke117

01-16-2015, 03:57 AM

if it's bullshit, why is finley the only thing you disagree with?

are you always this much of a nitpicker?

also, i think finley should be in there as a legit SG honorable mention anyway - he was a good 2-way player that had pretty high offensive win shares in his prime.

btw, why don't you make a list for 2000-2014 like the one i did for 1984-1998?

...I've never met a man who loves to see himself type with a grin on his face...just like you. That grin is going to be what everyone remembers you with when you are in the mud.

And Eye...we will all meet that mud...some of us sooner than later eh?

3ball

01-16-2015, 04:01 AM

...I've never met a man who loves to see himself type with a grin on his face...just like you. That grin is going to be what everyone remembers you with when you are in the mud.

And Eye...we will all meet that mud...some of not as soon as you eh?
rent free

Milbuck

01-16-2015, 04:02 AM

rent free
:roll:

Smoke117

01-16-2015, 04:06 AM

awww...Milbuck..my foil? maybe if he was wort hat must. He's all out in his agenda tiredsome.

Smoke117

01-16-2015, 04:07 AM

That is what they want me to say no, right. lol. i'm not going to gum it up

Smoke117

01-16-2015, 04:08 AM

EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEH **** this stupid pos this means nothing and is nanoying me and lalbhalbha;bljas;dfljkad;, lol yes i typed that nonsense

End of discussion.

SamuraiSWISH

01-16-2015, 04:11 AM

This wet back is raging ... Talking to himself. Lay off the tequila por favor

9erempiree

01-16-2015, 07:57 AM

There is a reason why it is hard for most people in the world to think MJ is better than Kobe when his competition has been sub par compared to Bryant's. While being a great player in his era, MJ hasn't shown his greatness in a more sophisticated and evolved era such as Kobe's era.

To name drop all those players of the past, while it is great nostalgic-wise, those players are nowhere near the same level of the 00's shooting guards.

This is why people with knowledge of the game don't think MJ is better than Kobe. His sample size against more athletic defenders of the 00's and beyond is too small.

Showtime80'

01-16-2015, 09:13 AM

Gotta love the old "modern athletes are soooo much better" that's why Kobe should be considered better than MJ way of thinking. Let you in on a little secret, the focus on athleticism has made the NBA WORSE in the last 15 years! Why? because basketball like soccer in a lot of ways is better served being played with the focus on skill and fundamentals (Spurs anyone) rather than physical prowess (although it never hurts) That's why a shrimp like Leonel Messi (5'6 145lbs) can be the king of world soccer, SKILL!

Go watch the Western Conference Semifinals and WCF from 1997 and 1998 when the Utah Jazz absolutely dissected one of the most athletic teams of all time in the LA Lakers with Shaq, Eddie Jones, Kobe Bryant, Nick Van Exel, Derek Fisher, Elden Campbell, Robert Horry, Rick Fox ect... All in their 20's and athletic primes. Who were the Jazz three main players? 30 somethings Karl Malone, John Stockton and Jeff Hornacek, LOL!!!! It wasn't' even close, total domination why? SKILL!

That's why the 80's early 90's were so special, perfect blend of SKILL, fundamentals with the athleticism to top it off, and that is the period that Jordan dominated. Oh and back then the league didn't have to tinker with the rules to enhance offenses!

3ball

01-16-2015, 09:17 AM

his competition has been sub par compared to Bryant's.

Kobe got to play some of the weakest Finals teams of all time for most of his Finals wins (New Jersey twice, and Dwight Howard's Magic once)... and don't bring up how he played the Kings in the WCF because that's one the least athletic teams ever.

also, out of all the players post-1990, Jordan's playoff competition had better regular season records and defensive ratings than any player post-1990, as discussed in these two threads:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=255273
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=362242

While being a great player in his era, MJ hasn't shown his greatness in a more sophisticated and evolved era such as Kobe's era.

The spacing makes it easier for all offensive players... today's strategy was designed to combat the spacing, so it has no relevance to the no-spacing environments of previous eras.

To name drop all those players of the past, while it is great nostalgic-wise, those players are nowhere near the same level of the 00's shooting guards.

Kobe has never faced a top 5 all-time perimeter defender while they were in their prime.. He's never faced a prime Jordan, Pippen, Payton, Moncrief, Alvin Robertson, or Michael Cooper.

These are the best perimeter defenders in history - you can't name 6 guys from Kobe's era to match them... Nor has he ever faced a defender as good as Rodman, who Jordan abused (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=359858).

I'd love to see Sidney Moncrief (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ADAo3W4Hos) guard Kobe... talk about brick city... Could Kobe average 29.3 ppg, 5.8 rebs, and 8.5 assists on 56.5% TS in the playoffs heads-up against him?.. That's way better than Kobe's career playoff averages against ALL defenders, let alone his average going against a top 5 all-time perimeter defender like Moncrief.
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Showtime80'

01-16-2015, 09:35 AM

Great point 3Ball!

Not to mention Michael was facing guys like Dumars and Moncrief 12 times in the regular season plus the playoffs and they were part of the powerhouse Pistons and Bucks of the 80's early 90's!

Where did Kobe's main competition at SG play? That's right the most horrible conference of all time, the 2000's East! Vince Carter, Iverson, McGrady, and Lebron, all part of teams that were NOWHERE near the quality of the Pistons and Bucks.

Remember people, basketball is a TEAM game!!! You honestly think Michael and the 90's Bulls would've struggled against the 2000's Raptors, Magic, Sixers and Cavs?!? 75 wins would not be out of realm of that Bulls team in the 2000's

9erempiree

01-16-2015, 09:54 AM

Kobe got to play some of the weakest Finals teams of all time for most of his Finals wins (New Jersey twice, and Dwight Howard's Magic once)... and don't bring up how he played the Kings in the WCF because that's one the least athletic teams ever.

also, out of all the players post-1990, Jordan's playoff competition had better regular season records and defensive ratings than any player post-1990, as discussed in these two threads:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=255273
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=362242

The spacing makes it easier for all offensive players... today's strategy was designed to combat the spacing, so it has no relevance to the no-spacing environments of previous eras.

Kobe has never faced a top 5 all-time perimeter defender while they were in their prime.. He's never faced a prime Jordan, Pippen, Payton, Moncrief, Alvin Robertson, or Michael Cooper.

These are the best perimeter defenders in history - you can't name 6 guys from Kobe's era to match them... Nor has he ever faced a defender as good as Rodman, who Jordan abused (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=359858).

I'd love to see Sidney Moncrief (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ADAo3W4Hos) guard Kobe... talk about brick city... Could Kobe average 29.3 ppg, 5.8 rebs, and 8.5 assists on 56.5% TS in the playoffs heads-up against him?.. That's way better than Kobe's career playoff averages against ALL defenders, let alone his average going against a top 5 all-time perimeter defender like Moncrief.
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:lol

You're joking right and somehow I missed it. Moncrief is not better than the modern defenders of today. Heck, Tayshaun and specialists such as Bowen are much better.

9erempiree

01-16-2015, 09:56 AM

3ball

01-16-2015, 10:49 AM

.
Best SG's 1984-1998:

Michael Jordan
Clyde Drexler
Anfernee Hardaway
Joe Dumars
Sidney Moncrief
Alvin Robertson
Reggie Miller
Dennis Johnson
Ronaldo Blackman
Mitch Richmond

Honorable Mention: Reggie Lewis, Latrell Sprewell, Fat Lever, Jeff Hornacek, Byron Scott, Dale Ellis, Derrick McKey, Allan Houston, Eddie Jones, Jeff Malone, Ricky Pierce, Michael Finley, Steve Smith, Jerry Stackhouse, Ron Harper, Reggie Theus.

Best SF's 1984-1998

Larry Bird
Dr. J
Scottie Pippen
Dominique Wilkins
Bernard King
Adrian Dantley
Alex English
James Worthy
Chris Mullin
Grant Hill

Honorable Mention: Shareef Abdur-Rahim, Glen Rice, Kiki Vandeweghe (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=360034), Mark Aguirre, Glenn Robinson, Jamaal Mashburn, Detlef Schrempf, Tom Gugliotta, Sean Elliot, Richard Dumas

Defensive Specialists (partial list): Michael Cooper, Dennis Rodman, George Lynch, Gerald Wilkins, Stacey Augmon, Clifford Robinson, Doug Christie, Nate McMillan, Bobby Phills, Anthony Mason
.

3ball

01-16-2015, 10:51 AM

:lol

You're joking right and somehow I missed it. Moncrief is not better than the modern defenders of today. Heck, Tayshaun and specialists such as Bowen are much better.

Just because Tayshaun held Kobe to 22.6 ppg, 2.8 rebs, and 4.4 assists on 37% shooting in the 2004 Finals, doesn't make him better than one of the best defenders ever and former two-time DPOY Sidney Moncrief (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ADAo3W4Hos).

Jordan always averaged 30 ppg or more against Dennis Rodman (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=359858) or Michael Cooper (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjpv-XrKpYM), and they are much better defenders than Tayshaun or Bowen..

also, Jordan played FAR better against top 5 defenses in the playoffs, as discussed in these threads:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=255273
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=362242
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KobesFinger

01-16-2015, 10:54 AM

Why are you posting the same post over and over? I said condense the list into 10 players, not 10 of each

NBASTATMAN

01-16-2015, 11:02 AM

Mitch Richmond is like the Joe Johnson of the 90s. With better longevity.. But same caliber player. Just a run of the mill all star. It's an insult to compare him to all time elite talents like Wade, Durant, or Iverson.. Was mitch Richmond. This is a guy whose never even placed top 10 mvp.. Compared to mvp candidates and winners.

Mitch had a better all around offensive game than iverson and wade.. Durant on the other hand has some serious skills :rockon: I am not saying Mitch was or is better than Wade though.. Mitch over Iverson is debatable.. Iverson never guarded anyone.. Mitch could guard

3ball

01-16-2015, 11:08 AM

Why are you posting the same post over and over?

i posted it again because i had actually left a lot of guys off originally...

also, the list didn't look right without two-time DPOY Sidney Moncrief (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ADAo3W4Hos) on there, considering Jordan went to war with him in the playoffs, after Moncrief had been 1st Team All-NBA.

I said condense the list into 10 players, not 10 of each

10 SG's and 10 SF's with honorable mentions is better than just 10 total... gives a better picture.

btw, the 1984-1998 SG's are better and much deeper than 2000-2014 SG's, but it's actually the small forwards of Jordan's era that have a thorough advantage on today's small forwards..

i started doing a SF list for 2000-2014, and i just stopped because at the #9 spot, I found myself using Kawhi Leonard - it's just a super-thin, all-time worst crop of SF's (in addition to PF's and Centers too obviously).
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9erempiree

01-16-2015, 11:09 AM

Mitch had a better all around offensive game than iverson and wade.. Durant on the other hand has some serious skills :rockon: I am not saying Mitch was or is better than Wade though.. Mitch over Iverson is debatable.. Iverson never guarded anyone.. Mitch could guard

It's called deception. Mitch was bigger in stature than Iverson so don't let that fool you. He was a good defensive player but not "worldly" like someone try to present it as.

Showtime80'

01-16-2015, 12:19 PM

Jesus Christ! I forgot about Dennis Rodman, DPOY in 1990. So not only did Michael have to worry about Joe Dumars in his prime, he also had the worn on his a** WITH hand checking legal and if he got by that he had a clogged up middle with Bill Laimbeer, James Edwards, John Salley and Rick Mahorn ready to clobber him without any risk of a flagrant foul! Kobe who!

And remember, Michael had to actually worry about Joe Dumars and Sydney Moncrief at the other end taking over games offensively unlike Prince or Bowen are nowhere near the offensive players those two guys were.

And before you throw out the all mighty zone argument go watch Michael play at UNC when the ACC was loaded with NBA talent along with the powerhouses from the Big East. Michael dominated in the limited system Dean Smith operated. He would just become a more off the ball player (ala Reggie Miller) instead of dominating the ball so much.

He along with the 90's Bulls would crap on todays "sophisticated" defenses, specially the eastern conference

KobesFinger

01-16-2015, 03:48 PM

IMO, the top 10 SGs and SFs from 2000-14 in no order are:

Kobe Bryant
LeBron James
Kevin Durant
Dwayne Wade
Tracy McGrady
Vince Carter
Ray Allen
Allen Iverson
Paul Pierce
Shawn Marion

HM: Carmelo Anthony, Ron Artest, Manu Ginobili, James Harden

Defensive specialists: Tony Allen, Bruce Bowen, Thabo Sefalosha, Aaron McKie, Tayshaun Prince, Trevor Ariza, Shane Battier

3ball

01-17-2015, 02:00 AM

..........TOP WINGS

...2000-2014.............1984-1998

Kobe Bryant............ Michael Jordan
LeBron James.......... Larry Bird
Dwayne Wade.......... Scottie Pippen
Kevin Durant........... Dr. J
James Harden.......... Clyde Drexler
Tracy McGrady......... Dominique Wilkins
Paul Pierce.............. James Worthy
Carmelo Anthony..... Bernard King/Adrian Dantley
Vince Carter............ Grant Hill
Allen Iverson........... Penny Hardaway

Honorable Mention: Ray Allen-Reggie Miller.... Ron Artest-Alvin Robertson... Manu Ginobili-Chris Mullin/Mitch Richmond... Shawn Marion-Dennis Rodman

I added the top 10 wings from 1984-1998 alongside yours above... the lists look good.

Even though I saw Iverson in there for 2000-2014, I resisted the urge to include various point guards from the previous era that also could play multiple positions like Magic Johnson, Gary Payton, or Michael Ray Richardson.

Papaya Petee

01-17-2015, 08:56 AM

Mitch had a better all around offensive game than wade..
Please, and I can't stress this enough, PLEASE stop posting nonsence like this.

Ritchmonds highest PPG season is 25.9 PPG
Wade has had 5 seasons better (30.2 PPG best)

Ritchmonds highest APG season is 5.1 APG
Wade has had 7 seasons better than that (7.5 highest)

Richmonds highest FG was 49.7% and never came close to that again.
Wade has had 4 better seasons than that (53% best)

21/4/4 45% FG career for Richmond
24/6/5 49% for Wade

Richmond was never close to being the offensive player Wade was in his prime. Difference between All-Star and superstar.