Reggie Said Kobe is the 3rd Greatest Guard of all time.

[HOoopCityJones]

Thoughts?

[JebronLames]

Agreed.

[J Shuttlesworth]

So Jordan > Magic > Kobe... seems to be the common opinion unless i'm forgetting someone

[HOoopCityJones]

So Jordan > Magic > Kobe... seems to be the common opinion unless i'm forgetting someone

Some might say Oscar or Jerry, but I can't put either of them over Kobe.

[J Shuttlesworth]

Some might say Oscar or Jerry, but I can't put either of them over Kobe.
Meh I don't think many really put Oscar or Jerry over kobe.

[NBASTATMAN]

AGREED.. One of the best ever.. I love to make fun of him but its only to kill KOBESTANS that take all this ish so seriously..

Kobe is the last of dying breed.. A true Killer on the court..

[NBASTATMAN]

So Jordan > Magic > Kobe... seems to be the common opinion unless i'm forgetting someone


I have always said this... Magic is the best team player ever..

[SouBeachTalents]

Top 5 guards is pretty set in stone imo, how I'd rank them

1. Jordan
2. Magic
3. Kobe
4. Oscar
5. West

[Smoke117]

What Reggie says could strip my camaro clean. That's some good STRIPPING AND CLEANING GREASE NO? in other words: **** reggies words. I'm not 10 years old...i can think for myself *GASP*

[Cocaine80s]

Agreed

1.Reggie
2.Wade
3.Kobe

[NBASTATMAN]

Top 5 guards is pretty set in stone imo, how I'd rank them

1. Jordan
2. Magic
3. Kobe
4. Oscar
5. West


Some say Wade is the third best but I can't put him over West.. Wade is one of my fav players..

[Smoke117]

Agreed

1.Reggie
2.Wade
3.Kobe

You make my quest for lebron hate easier. Thanks for that. I was tired of the hating a washed up bitch...a 30 year old bitfch who can't get it done...that sounds right about my alley, lad.

[CavaliersFTW]

He also emphasized after he said it "In my Opinion."

He's allowed to have an opinion. Many people are obviously going to disagree because guys like Oscar Robertson and Jerry West also dominated guard position as much as anyone can.

[CavaliersFTW]

Meh I don't think many really put Oscar or Jerry over kobe.
Well Reggie put Magic over Oscar and Jerry as well... yet guys like Kareem, Magic's own teammate, puts Oscar above Magic (and actually thinks Oscar would have "whooped everybody" one on one). Nate Thurmond also thinks Jordan and Oscar are the two best all-around players of all-time putting them as 1 and 2 in his books.

There's going to be lots of varied opinions on this, there were several GOAT-tier guards that have played in the NBA. MJ and Oscar are the two most dominant statistically. MJ has the best combo of career accolades/dominance. Kobe's got a good amount of accolades but even Jerry West bests him statistically, so the lines do get blurred there is no cut and dry top 3.

[MMM]

don't really have a problem with what Reggie said but I feel like West/Big O had more rounded games. Maybe i'm holding Kobe to higher standards and his flaws are fresher in my memory but i can't remember any other great player having the terrible shooting nights he has had during much of his career.

[NoGunzJustSkillz]

don't really have a problem with what Reggie said but I feel like West/Big O had more rounded games. Maybe i'm holding Kobe to higher standards and his flaws are fresher in my memory but i can't remember any other great player having the terrible shooting nights he has had during much of his career.
Damn, okay old man :lol

[Moonbeam]

I've got Kobe 5th:

1. MJ
2. Magic
3. West
4. Oscar
5. Kobe

[Heavincent]

What Reggie says could strip my camaro clean. That's some good STRIPPING AND CLEANING GREASE NO? in other words: **** reggies words. I'm not 10 years old...i can think for myself *GASP*

What's with your drunken and incoherent tirades? Get a grip dude.

[Smoke117]

What's with your drunken and incoherent tirades? Get a grip dude.

HIIIIIIIIIIIIIISSSS...yawn. Exactly. Yeah i'm so drunken and incohrent. You ever heard of giving you children what they want? LOL.

[Shep]

Oscar was better than Magic
West was better than Bryant

Bryant = top 5 guard

[imnew09]

Magic said " Kobe is the greatest Laker of all time."

Magic played his entire life with the Laker too :confusedshrug:

[The Red Viper]

Agree with Reggie.

For me:-

1. Jordan.
2. Magic.
3. Kobe.
4. West.
5. Oscar.

[CavaliersFTW]

Magic said " Kobe is the greatest Laker of all time."

Magic played his entire life with the Laker too :confusedshrug:
Selfless player, selfless person. Nothing wrong with deferring, it doesn't make his case any worse.

Kareem always defers to Wilt and Russell. Doesn't mean he doesn't have a case at the top in some peoples opinions.

[riseagainst]

I've got Kobe 5th:

1. MJ
2. Magic
3. West
4. Oscar
5. Kobe


:biggums:
:wtf:



:roll:
:roll:

[PieceOfFelt]

I have always said this... Magic is the best team player ever..

How is he a better team player than Larry Bird or John Stockton?

[DMV2]

MJ, Magic and Kobe are the only 3 guards in the consensus Top 10 list, not really breaking news here.

[SugarHill]

I would even say he's the second best.

[HOoopCityJones]

I would even say he's the second best.

Coming from you that means a lot.

[fpliii]

I don't think this is that controversial. :confusedshrug:

2nd best? Not sure. I wouldn't question it, but it would be interesting to hear somebody's criteria.

[beastee]

Top 5 guards is pretty set in stone imo, how I'd rank them

1. Jordan
2. Magic
3. Kobe
4. Oscar
5. West
Jordan
Magic (still call him a SFPG)
Kobe
Oscar
Wade (would be 4th without injuries)
West

[Cold soul]

Kobe can be high as second I think on career accomplishments he right there with Magic Johnson.

[AlphaWolf24]

"guard"is to vague...Magic and Kobe's game are not similar at all.

But I agree with Reggie ( in the fact).....Kobe,MJ and Magic are the 3 best guards ever....

coin toss the order...

[T_L_P]

"guard"is to vague...Magic and Kobe's game are not similar at all.

But I agree with Reggie ( in the fact).....Kobe,MJ and Magic are the 3 best guards ever....

coin toss the order...

Coin toss for 2nd and 3rd spot, perhaps. :oldlol:

:facepalm

Agree with Reggie here. Like other posters have said, those are the top 3 guards in most people's lists.

[Papaya Petee]

1.) Jordan
2.) Kobe
3.)Magic
4.) Oscar
5.) Wade
6.) West
7.) Isiah
8.) Drexler
9.) Payton
10.) Stockton/Nash/Kidd/AI

Imo. Maybe Kobes accomplishments arent up to par with Magic, but longevity, scoring and defense matter to me a little more.

[HOoopCityJones]

1.) Jordan
2.) Kobe
3.)Magic
4.) Oscar
5.) Wade
6.) West
7.) Isiah
8.) Drexler
9.) Payton
10.) Stockton/Nash/Kidd/AI

Imo. Maybe Kobes accomplishments arent up to par with Magic, but longevity, scoring and defense matter to me a little more.


I honestly don't see why not. Magic played with his co Top 10 all time Teammate all of his career, including the likes of James Worthy. Kobe gets killed for playing with Shaq and Gasol on two separate rosters that were literally two deep at a time while in contention.

[Poetry]

But I agree with Reggie ( in the fact).....Kobe,MJ and Magic are the 3 best guards ever....

coin toss the order...

http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/NTk0WDEyMDA=/$T2eC16hHJFoE9nh6qTeNBP6vtSNw2Q~~60_3.JPG

[fpliii]

I honestly don't see why not. Magic played with his co Top 10 all time Teammate all of his career, including the likes of James Worthy. Kobe gets killed for playing with Shaq and Gasol on two separate rosters that were literally two deep at a time while in contention.
Not that I disagree, but some people (LAZ has used this argument mostly) cite Magic's records in 90, 91, and note Kareem's decline.

I wasn't watching in the 80s but Kareem was still in his prime (and according to some at or near his peak) in the beginning of the decade, and was still the offensive anchor of those Lakers teams for some years.

Not trying to be disrespectful to Magic, but I feel like we can have a legitimate debate between the two, depending on what things people value in players.

[HOoopCityJones]

Not that I disagree, but some people (LAZ has used this argument mostly) cite Magic's records in 90, 91, and note Kareem's decline.

I wasn't watching in the 80s but Kareem was still in his prime (and according to some at or near his peak) in the beginning of the decade, and was still the offensive anchor of those Lakers teams for some years.

Not trying to be disrespectful to Magic, but I feel like we can have a legitimate debate between the two, depending on what things people value in players.

I personally don't care if people have Magic above Kobe all time, he's an all time great and one of my Team's best players ever, if not the best. But the double standard that people use to discredit Kobe and in the same breathe praise Magic is mind-boggling, as if Kareem, Worthy, Nixon and the rest of those boys don't amount to the same, or more help than playing with Shaq or Gasol. Kareem has a case for Goat for crying out loud.


That might as well go for Bird and his HoF Teammates too.

[mehyaM24]

How is he a better team player than Larry Bird or John Stockton?
we don't have data for pre 1991 seasons, although RAPM (pre 1998 is not 100% rapm, but even still, the best measure of impact to date) along with game footage (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8Qbo0WqvOI) suggests magic was every bit the offensive player jordan was, and maybe more.

offensive +/- per 100 possessions:
magic - 5.5
jordan - 3.9

keep in mind, magic was a year and change removed from his prime in 1991, while jordan was at his absolute peak.

[fpliii]

I personally don't care if people have Magic above Kobe all time, he's an all time great and one of my Team's best players ever, if not the best. But the double standard that people use to discredit Kobe and in the same breathe praise Magic is mind-boggling, as if Kareem, Worthy, Nixon and the rest of those boys don't amount to the same, or more help than playing with Shaq or Gasol.

Kareem has a case for Goat for crying out loud.
...and that's not even getting into the disparity between the West in the 80s vs the 00s-10s.

[mehyaM24]

1.) Jordan
2.) Kobe
3.)Magic
4.) Oscar
5.) Wade
6.) West
7.) Isiah
8.) Drexler
9.) Payton
10.) Stockton/Nash/Kidd/AI

Imo. Maybe Kobes accomplishments arent up to par with Magic, but longevity, scoring and defense matter to me a little more.

wade isn't rated ahead of isiah or west, but a great attempt here. top 3 is pretty clear-cut in most circles.

[HOoopCityJones]

...and that's not even getting into the disparity between the West in the 80s vs the 00s-10s.

The Defensive schemes introduced in the late 90's , early 00's is beyond underrated. I also included Bird and his HoF squads as well in my initial post.

The West became a Juggernaut for talented Teams in those early 00 years.

[fpliii]

we don't have data for pre 1991 seasons, although RAPM (pre 1998 is not 100% rapm, but even still, the best measure of impact to date) along with game footage (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8Qbo0WqvOI) suggests magic was every bit the offensive player jordan was, and maybe more.

offensive +/- per 100 possessions:
magic - 5.5
jordan - 3.9

keep in mind, magic was a year and change removed from his prime in 1991, while jordan was at his absolute peak.
Magic was a monster in 91 evidently. Nobody on Chicago could stop him:

[fpliii]

The Defensive schemes introduced in the late 90's , early 00's is beyond underrated. I also included Bird and his HoF squads as well in my initial post.

The West became a Juggernaut for talented Teams in those early 00 years.
I do think Bird's supporting cast might've been neutralized by the 80s East. Evidently the conference was tough as hell:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10881056&postcount=11

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10881099&postcount=12

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10881109&postcount=14

Bird's biggest problem seems to be lack of longevity IMO.

[HOoopCityJones]

I do think Bird's supporting cast might've been neutralized by the 80s East. Evidently the conference was tough as hell:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10881056&postcount=11

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10881099&postcount=12

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10881109&postcount=14

Bird's biggest problem seems to be lack of longevity IMO.


It's crazy for me to say , but do you feel like they kinda underachieved with only 3 rings? I mean thats amazing for just about any Team or player, but with all that talent and how much the 80's Celtics are lauded you would think they won more championships. Though, I guess my Lakers and the Bad Boy Pistons had a hand in that.

[mehyaM24]

Magic was a monster in 91 evidently. Nobody on Chicago could stop him:

• Magic vs different Bulls defenders, per 95 possessions

CODE: SELECT ALL

player poss TS% PTS AST TOV FGA FTA F drawn
Jordan 253 73,2 20,3 16,1 4,5 9,4 10,1 6,4
Pippen 102 64,9 20,5 11,2 4,7 12,1 8,4 7,5
no one 031 26,5 15,3 12,3 3,1 27,6 3,1 0
Horace 010 0,00 0,00 19,0 28,5 38,0 0,0 0
others 017 68,5 67,1 16,8 5,6 39,1 22,0 22,4

source: http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=1261129

thank you for these. some interesting stuff, and for me, you have to wonder what THOSE lakers would've done with even a 1987-88 jabbar and michael cooper - or at the very least, worthy and scott playing healthy.

20/16 on 74%TS against jordan - unreal

[PieceOfFelt]

we don't have data for pre 1991 seasons, although RAPM (pre 1998 is not 100% rapm, but even still, the best measure of impact to date) along with game footage (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8Qbo0WqvOI) suggests magic was every bit the offensive player jordan was, and maybe more.

offensive +/- per 100 possessions:
magic - 5.5
jordan - 3.9

keep in mind, magic was a year and change removed from his prime in 1991, while jordan was at his absolute peak.

What the **** does this have to do with my question?

[Moonbeam]

:biggums:
:wtf:



:roll:
:roll:

West and Oscar were amazing players, too. West's playoff play was otherworldly.

[pauk]

Zustimmen.

Obviously out of all the guards he had the 3rd best career (considering accolades and all).... but i dont think he was the 3rd best individual actual player/talent from a guard position....

Jordan
Oscar
Magic
West

So even with that criteria he is close to #3, but im sure many Kobe fans would even there put him #3 or more likely #2 or why not #1.

[T_L_P]

Zustimmen.

Obviously out of all the guards he had the 3rd best career (considering accolades and all).... but i dont think he was the 3rd best individual actual player/talent from a guard position....

Jordan
Oscar
Magic
West

So even with that criteria he is close to #3, but im sure many Kobe fans would even there put him #3 or more likely #2 or why not #1.

Who is 2nd in the DPOY race this year, after LeBron?

[JohnFreeman]

Who is 2nd in the DPOY race this year, after LeBron?
Duncan

[Papaya Petee]

wade isn't rated ahead of isiah or west, but a great attempt here. top 3 is pretty clear-cut in most circles.
Plenty of people have Wade>West, but if you disagree fine. I know you're a Wade hater, but I dont see how isiah has a case over Wade. At all actually.

[Bandito]

Zustimmen.

Obviously out of all the guards he had the 3rd best career (considering accolades and all).... but i dont think he was the 3rd best individual actual player/talent from a guard position....

Jordan
Oscar
Magic
West

So even with that criteria he is close to #3, but im sure many Kobe fans would even there put him #3 or more likely #2 or why not #1.
Man Kobe fans living rent free since 2010:lol

[pauk]

Who is 2nd in the DPOY race this year, after LeBron?

lol

His chance has passed, during those runner-up years i thought he deserved it especially the year Marc Gasol won it, so far this year he may not even be on 1st all-defensive team.... he wont be contending for DPOY anytime soon the older he gets from now on, maybe in NBA2K15.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Hey Pauk how's that Jordan flop compilation going?

[TheMarkMadsen]

lol

His chance has passed, during those runner-up years i thought he deserved it especially the year Marc Gasol won it, so far this year he may not even be on 1st all-defensive team.... he wont be contending for DPOY anytime soon the older he gets from now on, maybe in NBA2K15.

he wasn't even first team last year :roll:

Lebron 1st team defense from 09-13..

GOAT DEFENDER

[Bandito]

Who in their right mind says Kobe > Magic?

[pauk]

Man Kobe fans living rent free since 2010:lol

No pun intended, just saying that its more likely a Kobe fan that will not be so objective when comparing his individual basketball abilities to Jordan, Oscar, West, Magic.

[Bandito]

pauk is butthurt even true Lebron fans (not retarded stans such as him) give prop to Kobe.

[TheMarkMadsen]

pauk is butthurt even true Lebron fans (not retarded stans such as him) give prop to Kobe.

take notes while pauk gives you lessons on being an objection fan

[pauk]

Hey Pauk how's that Jordan flop compilation going?

https://i.imgflip.com/ghh7r.jpg

[TheMarkMadsen]

https://i.imgflip.com/ghh7r.jpg

Oh so you admit that Lebron is the only superstar who flops enough to have his own compilation?

[Bandito]

https://i.imgflip.com/ghh7r.jpg
:lol

But seriously tho....:biggums:

[pauk]

pauk is butthurt even true Lebron fans (not retarded stans such as him) give prop to Kobe.

WTF? Please explain how i didnt give props to Kobe? Didnt i agree that Kobe is the 3rd greatest guard of all time?

I dont hate Kobe.... even though his fans can tend to make me look like one even though its simply posts to prove them wrong about what they say about their hero, like that he is GOAT player, clutch player etc., but that is their fault, not Kobes....

I am not a Kobe hater... i am just talking to Kobetards, many of them are on this forum.... there is a difference....

I respect Kobe alot, especially his work ethic is something we all have to appreciate, footwork is something you can learn from him just by watching games...... I think Kobe is a top 10 player of all time and 3rd best guard ever... even though i dont think he the 3rd best talent we have witnessed from a guard, but that is just my opinion....

As far as me appreciating him much more than that (and be a fan) I simply couldnt get into that since Kobe's mindset & decision making (shot selection & selfishness) is not and never was my type of acquired taste in a basketball player.... if Kobe played like last night every game i would have then been a huge fan (its not the numbers, its the fact that he made the right plays/passes).... and he proves my opinions on him every night when he plays, take last night, i always said Kobe was a great passer and could be unselfish and "play the right way" since day 1.... he was just selfish, he wanted to score.... when he wants to he can pass... even rack up those assists numbers, how else do you explain him getting 17 assists last night at his age? If he could do that now whenever he wants, he could do it before, especially before when he was even better......

Thats what bothers me about Kobe.... and that he punched Reggie Miller back in the days didnt help.... :P

/Essay over n out

[Odinn]

I don't think there is a big fuss.

[L.Kizzle]

He was going by the players he'd played against .

[pauk]

Oh so you admit that Lebron is the only superstar who flops enough to have his own compilation?

No & Yes...

Yes, you are somewhat right.... Lebron is indeed the first & only one in this context it seems, which explains how many cynics there are around he bestows his free rent upon, but the footage avaliability & technology of the todays era fans have on their hands helps to....

No, calm down, i am making the Jordan flop compilation.... just relax and stop asking for it every 5 mins.... its annoying, you can help me so i can release the compilation quicker if you want? No? Then stop being annoying... :)
And again, please remember why i do this.... i love Jordan, i do this only to show you yet again, how ignorant you are with all your "Jordan never flopped" bs.... you can make a flop compilation of any player in NBA history, after im done with this one, pick another player of your wish.... :P

[SHAQisGOAT]

Imo...

1. Jordan
2. Magic
3. Kobe
4. Oscar
5. West

[pauk]

One more thing Mark Madsen and for others interested (sorry for derailing op).

Today you can make anybody or in this case say Lebron look more than flopper than Divac, Rodman and so on and so on and 100s & 100s of other names, hell now you can make Lebron look more of a flopper than Reggie Miller who was easily one of the greatest floppers ever and HE is my damn favorite player of all time, yet we cant even find ONE 10 sec video or just a damn picture of him doing a flop..........

See, in the 90s (especially 80s) all you could do is record the game on VHS from a livefeed from only TV and fastforward/rewind/pause at the "flop" to see it again (if it wasnt blurry enough) and only you could do it..... thats it, it was over.... and most likely you wouldnt even do that, you would just forget it "Its freaking Jordan" and those "flops" were just called "Veteran plays!" back in the days anyways...... now you can have the footage on your computer of any play in a millisecond for anybody to see, because everybody has the fastest computers & fastest internet.... even on a damn phone.... you couldnt do any "highlight" back then and then also throw it out on TV/internet somewhere for everybody to see unless you were some media professional/director/producer etc....

and now when we CAN do highlights of those players games we pick only the good parts.... we dont highlight flops.... who the hell & why would you do that? Even if you would why waste your time 1st downloading as many of his games as possible (which takes alot of time, in my case between 150 games somewhere), 2nd watch the games only to observe FLOPS and 3rd produce them on your computer into a final compilation....

Exactly.... but i have found a great reason... and it will be delicious when everybody can see it later.... :) meanwhile im just enjoying watching Jordan kick butt, many games i havent seen...

[jzek]

If you watched basketball in the 80s and up, of course you'd rank Jordan and Magic over Kobe.

[pauk]

If you watched basketball in the 80s and up, of course you'd rank Jordan and Magic over Kobe.

Even if you didnt how can you say Kobe had better accolades than Magic or especially Jordan? We have never even seen a Bill Russell game even if we wanted to yet we rank him certainly above Kobe and he certainly can be argued for GOAT looking at his accolades... accolades dont lie apparently...

It is what it is..... personally i hate that but i have to go with that very flawed criteria and rank players that way, rings > less rings > no ring.... because, well, im tired of having everybody against me....

I just dont understand when fans will finally see the very clear reality?

I mean since this is a heavy team game where even the greatest individual talent to lace up a pair of shoes could end up completely ringless in his absolute best prime/years (see Wilt & Oscar for example or hell why not Jordan in the 80s) i wish we all would just rank players based on individual ability & their impact... a player doesnt have to win any championship for you to see that, its the context that matters... a guy like Jerry West never choked in a Finals and he played in like 9?, never choked once, he was arguably the best Finals performer ever...

A guy who might be the best actual individual baller with greatest impact could also be taking the worst team in NBA history to the Finals but yet there lose..... in a Game 7..... isnt that a better accomplishment than a lesser talented guy being a part of the best actual team in the NBA with best coach etc. grabbing a championship?

CONTEXT..... hopefully one day we all can see it...

[Ne 1]

don't really have a problem with what Reggie said but I feel like West/Big O had more rounded games. Maybe i'm holding Kobe to higher standards and his flaws are fresher in my memory but i can't remember any other great player having the terrible shooting nights he has had during much of his career.
Oscar is really overrated IMO. He had great stats, but they aren't as historic or mind blowing when you consider the incredible pace. Plenty of players have put up great stats. Oscar led his team to 50+ wins once in his career. That alone should eliminate him from serious top 10 discussion.

[pauk]

All i know is that i am extremly happy that Jordan got the required supporting cast & coach later because he indeed was the greatest player i ever seen individually / impact / domination wise in every context, he would be #1 to me even if he ended up completely ringless, he was simply that good win or lose, i saw all his shit in the 80s, he didnt win because he got better, but because his team got better, i thought he was at his very best actually when he wasnt winning anything (late 80s)..... and believe you me that could have happened if he would have accepted/not doing anything about playing with a horrible team throughout his entire career, not doing any demands or seeking greener pastures... just being there... "loyal"....

Imagine that, ranking Jordan nowhere near #1 just because he didnt win a ring.... same exact player... just no ring.... = worse player..... sad criteria, yet we use it... we understand its stupid, yet we use it..... why are we so irrational? FU, lets use it....