Is Derrick Rose even a Top 10 PG anymore?

[SillyRabbit]

Westbrook
Curry
Paul
Lillard
Lowry
Wall
Dragic
Conley
Teague
Lawson

That's 10 right there who are absolutely better than him.

Rondo
Irving
Jennings
Walker

All have cases for being better than him this season as well.

What happened to this guy? Is his injury still bugging him? Is it a mental thing?

[brooks_thompson]

It is both physical and mental, and no he has not been a top ten point guard this season.

In the 4th quarter his 'drives per game' dramatically ramps up, so he's trying to a) pace himself, b) prevent further injury unless it's crunch time, c) get himself re-conditioned. The answer is d) all of the above.

Looking for the exact drive stat, I found this Sport VU PDF and found it interesting, even if outdated by a couple years.

http://www.stats.com/pdfs/NBA_InsidetheNumbers_DrivingToBasket.pdf

[Top Gun]

At his peak he's better than nearly all of them. He's still recovering from injuries and he's doing it slowly which is smart. I believe he will get back to his best and destroy some of those guys mentioned.

[dunksby]

I'd wait and see how he does in the postseason to judge him, he is a former MVP he has earned that much.

[Richesly]

He isn't a top ten by the way he played vs Atlanta a couple days ago.

[FPJ]

Rondo? Really?

[beastee]

He isn't a top ten by the way he played vs Atlanta a couple days ago.
Really dude? He outplayed Teague by a decent amount. His 3's alone almost brought the Bulls back. He had 23 and 10 and 8. If not for a couple half court heaves the dude shot about 48%. But the only thing that really matters is the playoffs and if he is in attack mode, watch out.

[j3lademaster]

He isn't a top ten by the way he played vs Atlanta a couple days ago.If we're going by that game and Rose isn't top 10 then neither is Teague. Rose clearly outplayed him.

[Kblaze8855]

Well...since you are basically asking if hes outplayed all those guys in the first couple months after missing 2 years...no. But asking if hes "even" better than a gang of HOF talents and potential all stars right out the gate coming off what hes been through seems a bit odd.

Michael Jordan was a hell of a lot better than Derrick Rose....missed less time in 94 and early 95 than Rose....and came back healthy not trying to feel his way back from two massive injuries...

He shot worse in the 17 games he played that regular season than Derrick Rose has shot this season. He picked it up soon and was far better in the playoffs...but hes MJ. And he was healthy the entire 2 years in question...not in rehab. And even he came back shooting 41% for a month and change.

Kobe looked washed up last year in his brief return and most of this year too and he wasnt out as long as Rose. Hes old for sure...but he was HOF level at 34 approaching 35 in 2013....so its not like he was ass before missing time due to age. He just lost a lot while out.

Bernard King suffered a similar level of injury to Rose in his prime. He goes from 33ppg to 17 when he gets back for a full season. 60 points on christmas, 40ppg vs the Pistons, 33ppg for a year, runner up in MVP voting Brooklyn Broiler goes from most unstoppable scorer in the league to a good scoring part time starter who put up 10ppg by the end of the next season coming off the bench. He wasnt nearly the real Bernard King for 4 ****ing years....

Chris Webber got hurt in the playoffs...missed most of one season right in his prime...he was a 23/11/5 superstar. Comes back having missed just a few months...18/8 on 41% shooting over 23 games with a decent but not Webber like post season. Goes from top of his game borderline MVP level player to Pejas washed up sidekick at 29 who they shipped out for Kenny Thomas and Big Nasty Corliss.

Rose is at 18/5/3 in less than 30 minutes a game. Not one other person in 70 years has done that. Now...dont take that to mean hes having an epic season...he isnt...or that this will continue all year...it wont...his minutes will go up. What im saying is....hes been fairly productive for limited minutes coming off two catastrophic injuries as a player who's entire game is predicated on explosiveness and confidence.

Hes rounding into form. It will not happen overnight.

That is "What happened to this guy".

Its what happens to most players in such a situation.

[nathanjizzle]

dumb thread, there is only 1 pg that is really better than rose right now. lowry is 3-7 the last ten games, must be a really good player.

[brooks_thompson]

Great post and examples KBlaze.

Speaking of Bernard King, his 30 for 30 with Grunfeld is great. Watching his sadness and rage as he recounts getting beaten...man.


Edit: well, well. The doc: http://youtu.be/32Yq-USuO_g

[DMAVS41]

Well...since you are basically asking if hes outplayed all those guys in the first couple months after missing 2 years...no. But asking if hes "even" better than a gang of HOF talents and potential all stars right out the gate coming off what hes been through seems a bit odd.

Michael Jordan was a hell of a lot better than Derrick Rose....missed less time in 94 and early 95 than Rose....and came back healthy not trying to feel his way back from two massive injuries...

He shot worse in the 17 games if played that regular season than Derrick Rose has shot this season. He picked it up soon and was far better in the playoffs...but hes MJ. And he was healthy the entire 2 years in question...not in rehab. And even he came back shooting 41% for a month and change.

Kobe looked washed up last year in his brief return and most of this year too and he wasnt out as long as Rose. Hes old for sure...but he was HOF level at 34 approaching 35 in 2013....so its not like he was ass before missing time due to age. He just lost a lot while out.

Bernard King suffered a similar level of injury to Rose in his prime. He goes from 33ppg to 17 when he gets back for a full season. 60 points on christmas, 40ppg vs the Pistons, 33ppg for a year, runner up in MVP voting Brooklyn Broiler goes from most unstoppable scorer in the league to a good scoring part time starter who put up 10ppg by the end of the next season coming off the bench. He wasnt nearly the real Bernard King for 4 ****ing years....

Chris Webber got hurt in the playoffs...missed most of one season right in his prime...he was a 23/11/5 superstar. Comes back having missed just a few months...18/8 on 41% shooting over 23 games with a decent but not Webber like post season. Goes from top of his game borderline MVP level player to Pejas washed up sidekick at 29 who they shipped out for Kenny Thomas and Big Nasty Corliss.

Rose is at 18/5/3 in less than 30 minutes a game. Not one other person in 70 years has done that. Now...dont take that to mean hes having an epic season...he isnt...or that this will continue all year...it wont...his minutes will go up. What im saying is....hes been fairly productive for limited minutes coming off two catastrophic injuries as a player who's entire game is predicated on explosiveness and confidence.

Hes rounding into form. It will not happen overnight.

That is "What happened to this guy".

Its what happens to most players in such a situation.


Nah...

Nique came back after the achilles and was a beast for 93 and 94...and then dipped down to current Rose type production.

Not sure about the 70 years thing, but even that is misleading as 18/5/3 50% TS is just not anything to even note. I'd imagine there are many guys in the league this year, let alone in 70 years, that are more productive than that at around 30 minutes per game.

Dirk, for example, is at 19/6/2 57% TS in the same amount of minutes Rose plays this year.

Manu was at 17/4/5 58% TS in 2011.

So just nothing to note really.

[Papaya Petee]

dumb thread, there is only 1 pg that is really better than rose right now. lowry is 3-7 the last ten games, must be a really good player.
:roll: No, not a dumb thread, but your reply sure is dumb.

Lets hear your case for Rose> Westbrook, Lowry, Wall, Lillard, Curry, Cp3, Teague, Irving, or Ellis right now.

I don't want to hear that he won an MVP in 2011. I want to know RIGHT now. I'll wait.

Rose is right about that 9-11 range for PGs right now.

[Kblaze8855]

[Already said]Now...dont take that to mean hes having an epic season...he isnt...or that this will continue all year...it wont...his minutes will go up. What im saying is....hes been fairly productive for limited minutes coming off two catastrophic injuries as a player who's entire game is predicated on explosiveness and confidence. [/Already said]

[DMAVS41]

Why say nobody in 70 years has done something if you don't think anything of it?

It's misleading and agenda driven. Obvious is obvious.

Just seems odd not to mention Nique in an objective take on Rose post injury...while also talking about him doing something nobody has done in 70 years when what he's doing is truly nothing of note as you even later admit.

[Kblaze8855]

[Already said]Now...dont take that to mean hes having an epic season...he isnt...[/Already said]

[hawksdogsbraves]

Really dude? He outplayed Teague by a decent amount. His 3's alone almost brought the Bulls back. He had 23 and 10 and 8. If not for a couple half court heaves the dude shot about 48%. But the only thing that really matters is the playoffs and if he is in attack mode, watch out.

When he was in attack mode in the 4th he was scary, if he can get back to that for a full game then the Bulls will be on another level.

His 3 point shooting against us was stupid lucky though, he scored most of his points from just chucking contested 3's.

[DMAVS41]

[Already said]Now...dont take that to mean hes having an epic season...he isnt...[/Already said]

Why even mention it?

[nathanjizzle]

:roll: No, not a dumb thread, but your reply sure is dumb.

Lets hear your case for Rose> Westbrook, Lowry, Wall, Lillard, Curry, Cp3, Teague, Irving, or Ellis right now.

I don't want to hear that he won an MVP in 2011. I want to know RIGHT now. I'll wait.

Rose is right about that 9-11 range for PGs right now.

actually, you have the burden of proof to show that these players are better than Rose. None of these guys has outplayed rose yet. None of these guys before were better than rose, so why all of a sudden 40 games worth of mediocre play makes them better than a player who was mvp in his 3rd season and is still producing the same stats they are while coming from a 2 year hiatus?

^ - curry.

what i would like to see is that people put their money where there mouth is. Rose in the next 5 games vs any player on that list, i bet 40 dollars he plays better. paypal.

[DMAVS41]

And why leave out Nique? Why talk about Kobe and not Nique when they had virtually the same injury?

Also, you ready to explain why you think Frye and Dirk are virtually identical players outside of midrange jump shooting?

[DMAVS41]

actually, you have the burden of proof to show that these players are better than Rose. None of these guys has outplayed rose yet. None of these guys before were better than rose, so why all of a sudden 40 games worth of mediocre play makes them better than a player who was mvp in his 3rd season and is still producing the same stats they are while coming before from a 2 year hiatus?

What?

Why do you moronic Rose fans always want to grade on a curve. It's always...Rose is better because he was young...Rose is better because he's coming off injuries.

Nobody grades players like that. It's about how good you actually are. You don't get extra points for being short or fat or tall or thin or old or young...etc. It's about impact.

Also, you over-rate the **** out of 11 Rose. That is your first problem and one I'd imagine will never be fixed.

Like...you think 11 Rose was a better player than current Harden or Curry or Westbrook? Please answer.

[PsychoBe]

way, way, way too many 3's. i hope he understands that the mid-range game can open up vast dimensions for him too. :facepalm

[Kblaze8855]

[Already said]What im saying is....hes been fairly productive for limited minutes coming off two catastrophic injuries as a player who's entire game is predicated on explosiveness and confidence. [/Already said]

[DMAVS41]

[Already said]What im saying is....hes been fairly productive for limited minutes coming off two catastrophic injuries as a player who's entire game is predicated on explosiveness and confidence. [/Already said]

(Already said) You can say that without throwing in the obvious red herring of "he's doing things nobody has done in 70 years" (Already said)

You just like to throw shit out there and hate getting called on it. Then you'll shut down. Just like you did with the Afflalo shit...calling him a "star" player and the Frye = Dirk comments.

[j3lademaster]

Like...you think 11 Rose was a better player than current Harden or Curry or Westbrook? Please answer.He's definitely not clearly better or vastly superior to these guys, but you can't act like healthy '11 Rose doesn't have a case.

[Genaro]

He's not playing well but I think it has to do a lot with the fear he has in re-injuring himself. Rose's biggest strength is the penetration but he keeps bricking jumpers because he's too afraid of the contact. Also too many 3s, he's thinking he's Curry now?

[mehyaM24]

top 10, but no longer in the conversation with curry, paul, wall and dame IMO. you could put westbrook in there, as well.

[hawksdogsbraves]

He's definitely not clearly better or vastly superior to these guys, but you can't act like healthy '11 Rose doesn't have a case.

11' Rose was FOUR years ago. That's like bringing up 2007 Dirk if we're talking about who the top PF's are right now.

[SamuraiSWISH]

I'd wait and see how he does in the postseason to judge him
This. He's pretty clearly conserving himself to stay healthy come playoff time. In games where he's shown visible effort, and the willingness to play his former game of attacking consistently off the dribble he's been extremely good. Like when he dropped 18 first quarter points on John Wall.

[j3lademaster]

11' Rose was FOUR years ago. That's like bringing up 2007 Dirk if we're talking about who the top PF's are right now.Maybe you should read the post I'm replying to. I didn't bring up '11 Rose. :facepalm

[Dengness9]

While it may be fun for conversation sakes to rank the top 10 PG's currently, no one will remember the list.

People will remember what these PG's do in the playoffs. Rose is pacing himself while trying to rediscover his game. Not an easy process. Bulls are struggling and also have some injuries but Rose has been special the last few games making you wonder if he's finally returning to form.

Derrick Rose's regular season will be a success if he makes it through without a major injury.

Rose can rise to the top of PG ratings with a big postseason. We'll see.

[SamuraiSWISH]

I've seen Derrick dominate an NBA season, at a very young age, to the point of not just being the league's best PG ... but being league MVP.

Why do I care post 2x knee injuries Derrick being ranked a "top ten PG" or not in January? I think he, his coach, management, and knowledgeable Bulls fans understand this too.

I want to see this dude dominate from April until June. That's the only proving ground he has left on his resume as an individual. I want to see him take his game to another level during the intensity of the playoffs.

Where legends are born.

[Clyde]

These current top 10 lists are stupid.

obviously it's fluid situation.

[navy]

Lower half maybe.

Playoffs is where it counts.

[T_L_P]

Quite honestly, from what I've seen this year, Brooks is the team's best PG (though Rose has impressed me as of late).

[beastee]

Quite honestly, from what I've seen this year, Brooks is the team's best PG (though Rose has impressed me as of late).
Rose has played well against the top 10 guards as he always has. Brooks is a back up (probably top 3 in game) playing weaker guards most of the time. Not sure you can compare, but the drop off is minimal for the bulls.

[chocolatethunder]

First action back from being hurt w two serious injuries for the last two seasons and people are worried if he's "top 10"? It's not even the all star break of his first season back. You think that you can miss two years of basketball and just magically come back and be the same player you were instantly? It takes time. I would be willing to bet that he'll be playing his best come playoff time. He's had some bad games but he's also had some really good games. Give him a break he's not a machine.

[Relinquish]

Rose is a very good top 20 point guard.

[pegasus]

He is not, but he has the potential to be a top-5 player in the league. We need to see what he does in the playoffs before we include him in lists.