Andre Drummond warned by the NBA for violating the Anti-Flop Policy

[Detroit]

I watched this play over and over again and it seems like the right call. A lot of guys in the league do this nowadays if they're anticipating a hard hit coming.

Here is the play in question: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjiGB_ifIHg

What do you guys think?

[j3lademaster]

He saw the offensive player lower his shoulder, so he took the charge. Haven't caught a lot of Pistons games this year, but this play makes him look like a crafty vet and a lot higher iq defensively than I thought.

That's not a flop. The contact was enough to knock him over. Charges have been called like that for decades, why should it change now? It's not a sniper-in-the-building shameless flop where you lean into someone with minimal contact and fall 20 feet the other way, he set his feet as the offensive player lowered his shoulder and took a hard blow from a big, strong player.

[kNIOKAS]

I think it's ok to call it a flop. I have no problem with a defender falling down if he's pushed hard enough to fall down, but that wasn't the case this time. To me the defender can choose to not recover when he's standing still and the offense player rams the shoulder into his chest pushing him out of the way. If it's a charge lets make it a charge. However, here there wasn't enough contact for the defender to fall down and force the call.


Edit: apparently we ^ see the same situation differently.

[QuebecBaller]

He saw the offensive player lower his shoulder, so he took the charge. Haven't caught a lot of Pistons games this year, but this play makes him look like a crafty vet and a lot higher iq defensively than I thought.

That's not a flop. The contact was enough to knock him over. Charges have been called like that for decades, why should it change now? It's not a sniper-in-the-building shameless flop where you lean into someone with minimal contact and fall 20 feet the other way, he set his feet as the offensive player lowered his shoulder and took a hard blow from a big, strong player.

This

[swagga]

He saw the offensive player lower his shoulder, so he took the charge. Haven't caught a lot of Pistons games this year, but this play makes him look like a crafty vet and a lot higher iq defensively than I thought.

That's not a flop. The contact was enough to knock him over. Charges have been called like that for decades, why should it change now? It's not a sniper-in-the-building shameless flop where you lean into someone with minimal contact and fall 20 feet the other way, he set his feet as the offensive player lowered his shoulder and took a hard blow from a big, strong player.

spot on.

[funnystuff]

Hibbert is huge, how is this considered a flop?

[wally_world]

Even if he got fined, the team would pay it. He won them the game.

[navy]

He saw the offensive player lower his shoulder, so he took the charge. Haven't caught a lot of Pistons games this year, but this play makes him look like a crafty vet and a lot higher iq defensively than I thought.

That's not a flop. The contact was enough to knock him over. Charges have been called like that for decades, why should it change now? It's not a sniper-in-the-building shameless flop where you lean into someone with minimal contact and fall 20 feet the other way, he set his feet as the offensive player lowered his shoulder and took a hard blow from a big, strong player.
That was a flop, unless you really think he had enough contact to fall over.

[Rake2204]

Hard for any of us to say definitively, but from what I know about Andre and how that play looked when it occurred (and still looks), I thought it was a flop.

He's not great at naturally drawing the correct contact necessary in those plays to make it look legit. I had the feeling that Andre's plan that entire play was to try to let a Hibbert bump knock him over so as to draw a charge.

It's very small, but his momentum seems a very small bit late in accordance with the actual contact. There was bit of "Oh there's the bump, time for me to go down."

A warning is very much warranted in my opinion. After the Pistons walked out of that one with a win, and Detroit fans (me) were so happy, I also figured the other side of the coin had to have been how robbed Indiana felt after that call.

[ZenMaster]

You should never try and draw the charge in that spot unless the offensive player hits you right in the middle of the chest, not your right arm like in this play.

[sundog67]

As a Pistons fan I'm happy for the call but it could have been a play on.

The problem is that refs reward these types of charge calls by only calling them when players fall to the ground. You rarely see a charge/offensive foul called when the defenders resist the contact or try to maintain their balance.

[stephanieg]

Blatant flop. If all defenders were that crafty and refs bit everytime strength based post play would be impossible.

[pauk]

To be honest taking a charge is in theory a flop/acting, its the only legal flop in basketball, there is no difference between successfully taking a charge and failing to do so except that the successful one gives you praise and the other one gives you fines because you simply "made it to obvious it was a flop".....

There is a fine line between standing your ground with all your might doing anything possible with intention to NOT fall down and somebody just rams you over..... AND standing there like a sleeping bird balancing on one leg with full intention to await the slightest touch & fall down... and most of the time players start leaning back falling before contact even occurs...

[Rake2204]

To be honest taking a charge is in theory a flop/acting, its the only legal flop in basketball, there is no difference between successfully taking a charge and failing to do so except that the successful one gives you praise and the other one gives you fines because you simply "made it to obvious it was a flop".....

There is a fine line between standing your ground with all your might doing anything possible with intention to NOT fall down and somebody just rams you over..... AND standing there like a sleeping bird balancing on one leg with full intention to await the slightest touch & fall down... and most of the time players start leaning back falling before contact even ocurrs...I do not agree that taking a charge is theoretically a flop/acting. When a drawn charge is done correctly, it's really a matter of a defender put themselves in position to be legitimately hit and knocked over. Just because a defender doesn't opt to do everything humanly possible to remain standing (which would likely include leaning forward, staggering one's feet, and bending the knees), doesn't mean to me that a player is otherwise acting.

The acting comes in when someone uses contact to pretend they were hit with enough force to knock them over from the position they'd established. In Drummond's case, I got the feeling he was pretending that contact was enough to knock him down from the position he'd established. In truth, I think he helped himself fall.

Otherwise, if a player legit falls thanks to momentum that doesn't happen to be on their side or because they opted to stand upright, in position, and stationary (Battier style). resulting in a solid hit and honest response (not an elaborate, attention-drawing motion that runs counter to the physics involved), I often do not label that a flop.

[pauk]

I do not agree that taking a charge is theoretically a flop/acting. When a drawn charge is done correctly, it's really a matter of a defender put themselves in position to be legitimately hit and knocked over.

Just because a defender doesn't opt to do everything humanly possible to remain standing (which would likely include leaning forward, staggering one's feet, and bending the knees), doesn't mean to me that a player is otherwise acting.

The acting comes in when someone uses contact to pretend they were hit with enough force to knock them over from the position they'd established. In Drummond's case, I got the feeling he was pretending that contact was enough to knock him down from the position he'd established. In truth, I think he helped himself fall.

Otherwise, if a player legit falls thanks to momentum that doesn't happen to be on their side or because they opted to stand upright, in position, and stationary (Battier style). resulting in a solid hit and honest response (not an elaborate, attention-drawing motion that runs counter to the physics involved), I often do not label that a flop.

Exactly and thats how it is abused. Dont get me wrong, it is a GREAT RULE if treated with all honesty..... its just so easy to be exploited and players are doing just that, most of the time (why not when it gives your team a great advantage?)....

Look, if you grab a def. rebound and see only one defender under the rim, he is standing there completely still, prepared for the charge and you now go coast-to-coast racing a straight line up towards the opponents rim with all the speed in the world and you make a superhero stop just 1 inch from his body (or even further) or a superquick change of direction..... i guarantee you HE WILL FALL....

You see this actually happen often when a deceptively quick player who makes a sudden stop or change of direction and the defender anticipated the charge/starts falling......... *bam* a FINE for him.... if the off. player didnt trick him then the call would go at his favor.... understand? Whats the difference between those two scenarios? Nothing, the guy who took the charge did two exactly the same things........ in one he got caught, in the other he didnt....

It is a great rule, but abused/exploited...... and it all goes so fast and "looks so real", players get away with it very often..... until its way to obvious and he gets a fine....

[Rake2204]

Exactly and thats how it is abused. Dont get me wrong, it is a GREAT RULE if treated with all honesty..... its just so easy to be exploited and players are doing just that, most of the time (why not when it gives your team a great advantage?)....

Look, if you grab a def. rebound and see only one defender under the rim, he is standing there completely still, prepared for the charge and you now go coast-to-coast racing a straight line up towards the opponents rim with all the speed in the world and you make a superhero stop just 1 inch from his body (or even further) or a superquick change of direction..... i guarantee you HE WILL FALL....

You see this actually happen often when a deceptively quick player who makes a sudden stop or change of direction and the defender anticipated the charge/starts falling......... *bam* a FINE for him.... if the off. player didnt trick him then the call would go at his favor.... understand? Whats the difference between those two scenarios? Nothing, the guy who took the charge did two exactly the same things........ in one he got caught, in the other he didnt....

It is a great rule, but abused/exploited...... and it all goes so fast and "looks so real", players get away with it very often..... until its way to obvious and he gets a fine....As someone who made a living off taking charges during a long-gone portion of my basketball career, a part of the play is subconscious self-preservation. But that does not mean I was falling whether a player hit me or not, so I must disagree with your guarantee. It was really just about establishing legal position and letting my body remain open to contact (i.e. not fighting contact with a counter-force).

I'll say, I do recall drawing a charge becoming contagious on one of my teams, and a teammate who was not well-versed in drawing a charge did have a terrible habit of beginning to fall before he was actually hit, but that's because he was doing it wrong. He was usually tagged with blocking fouls.

In Drummond's case, it really doesn't look like it was a matter of him establishing himself and allowing his body to "be open to contact", so to speak. Instead, it mostly looked like he decided to make himself fall. It's not the most blatant thing I've ever seen in the world, but it doesn't appear completely natural either. He kind of reminded me of my old teammate who'd try to draw charges back in the day.

I think there's little exaggerations and embellishments that happen all the time. However, it seems the NBA is most concerned with addressing the atrocious, wild, and blatent flails and flops that leave little to no doubt about a player's intent to deceive.

http://i.imgur.com/5feCR.gif

But regarding the fundamental charge draw, no, I do not believe it has much in common with flopping.

[Hotlantadude81]

Kirk Hinrich is a big time flopper. He should be broke from all the fines.