Could MJ have surpassed Kareem?

[SamuraiSWISH]

All-Time Scoring Record?

MJ retired to play baseball for what would equate to the last 2 years of his physical prime. That '94 team w/ MJ would've won a 4th consecutive championship had he been there. And if he stayed and didn't get rusty, who knows if they could've won in 1995 too.

Back to the points. MJ in '93 put up 33 ppg, allowing for slight regression in the '94 season let's say he'd average anywhere between 30 - 33 ppg.

In 1995 if he played the whole season, and not just 17 reg. season games? Based on his 1996 numbers, I think it's safe to to say he'd be putting up around 31 ppg ... give him another season of 31 ppg.

Then if Krause, PJ, and Pippen's egos didn't collectively destroy the Bulls. Or if MJ would've stuck around to chase individual glory like current Kobe, assumably the years he missed until he retired @ 40 years old in 2003.

If at 35 years old in 1998, MJ was putting up 29 ppg. Allowing for regression let's say:

1999: 28 ppg
2000: 27 ppg
2001: 26 ppg

Assuming he plays all 82 games those seasons as he typically did, or as he did from ages 33 - 35, and 40? It would be a pretty safe bet that his accumlative point total playing until he was 40 years old, keeping his Wizards averages and totals ...

Would've definitely put his accumulative point total higher than Kareem.

What do you think?

[Prometheus]

All-Time Scoring Record?

MJ retired to play baseball for what would equate to the last 2 years of his physical prime. That '94 team w/ MJ would've won a 4th consecutive championship had he been there. And if he stayed and didn't get rusty, who knows if they could've won in 1995 too.

Back to the points. MJ in '93 put up 33 ppg, allowing for slight regression in the '94 season let's say he'd average anywhere between 30 - 33 ppg.

In 1995 if he played the whole season, and not just 17 reg. season games? Based on his 1996 numbers, I think it's safe to to say he'd be putting up around 31 ppg ... give him another season of 31 ppg.

Then if Krause, PJ, and Pippen's egos didn't collectively destroy the Bulls. Or if MJ would've stuck around to chase individual glory like current Kobe, assumably the years he missed until he retired @ 40 years old in 2003.

If at 35 years old in 1998, MJ was putting up 29 ppg. Allowing for regression let's say:

1999: 28 ppg
2000: 27 ppg
2001: 26 ppg

Assuming he plays all 82 games those seasons as he typically did, or as he did from ages 33 - 35, and 40? It would be a pretty safe bet that his accumlative point total playing until he was 40 years old, keeping his Wizards averages and totals ...

Would've definitely put his accumulative point total higher than Kareem.

What do you think?

Easily. It's common sense, really. Michael Jordan is the best scorer that has ever played basketball. If he kept playing, of course he would own the all-time scoring record.

[Nikola_]

Yea, but if he doesnt retire, they dont win 6

[Fire Colangelo]

Assuming injury free, yeah probably.

[Kblaze8855]

Sure....with a lot of ifs a few guys could have. Hell Karl Malone could have easily kept playing and broken it. He was probably still a 16-20ppg player on a team of his own in 04. He chose to try to win a ring and give up the stats....then retired. But he wasnt just...done. He was still a good player.

Wilt could have set it in the 40s if he chose to.

Jordan had the issues you mentioned...and missing 86.

But as I said...everyone else is a series of what ifs.

You can make anything happen with a well thought out series of hypotheticals.

Hell if Kareems accountants didnt steal his money in the 80s he would have retired in 86 or 87...and Karl would have the record now with Kobe coming for it soon.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Yea, but if he doesnt retire, they dont win 6
Why?

They most likely win in 1994. The Bulls could've beat Orlando in 1995 w/o Grant, and a rusty Jordan. If he was there the whole season it's certainly more competitive.

And if they lose in 1995 either way, it still reinvigorates MJ's competitive juices to get better, and for Bulls management to bring in a servicable defensive PF to help rebounding duties.

If he doesn't retire, they most likely end up with more. I don't see them losing in 1999 if they stayed together either. You're looking at 8 rings, with an outside chance of 9 depending how 1995 shakes out with a top shape MJ.

There was championships left on the table by everyone involved. Jordan, Pippen, Jackson, and Krause.

:rolleyes:

[OnFire]

Why?

They most likely win in 1994. The Bulls could've beat Orlando in 1995 w/o Grant, and a rusty Jordan. If he was there the whole season it's certainly more competitive.

And if they lose in 1995 either way, it still reinvigorates MJ's competitive juices to get better, and for Bulls management to bring in a servicable defensive PF to help rebounding duties.

If he doesn't retire, they most likely end up with more. I don't see them losing in 1999 if they stayed together either. You're looking at 8 rings, with an outside chance of 9 depending how 1995 shakes out with a top shape MJ.

There was championships left on the table by everyone involved. Jordan, Pippen, Jackson, and Krause.

:rolleyes:

He's saying he took a 2 year vacation to heal up and maybe regain some motivation. Maybe the heat should of done that... let wade and lebron take a year and a half off and rest, then come back and continue...

I think going by his logic that it could be more likely that the bulls would have won 5 straight titles than winning 6 total titles just due to attrition, losing interest, bickering in lockerroom and front office, etc.

[Wade's Rings]

Easily would've beaten Kareem, more than Likely hits 40k points as well.

[SamuraiSWISH]

He's saying he took a 2 year vacation to heal up
That's not what he did though. You kids stick to this straw man. He didn't take HGH or dip in a Lazerus Pit for 2x years. He was playing another professional sport. He wasn't in a tomb conserving himself like Dracula.


and maybe regain some motivation.
Losing in 1995, while also being rusty and not on call being the game's greatest player was what revitalized him.

I'm sure playing, and losing to that young Magic team still does the same thing mentally to him.

Jordan needed to find challenges. Which by 1993 were running out. He was unanimously the game's best individual player, while also winning the first 3 peat since Russell's Celtics and in just 8 years being heralded as GOAT.

There wasn't a challenge until it came to:

a) Can I come back from baseball and instantly be the game's best again
b) I want to avenge the loss to the 1995 Magic in the 1996 season.

Thus, his leadership, need for self improvement and determination trickled down the rest of the team ... then they won a staggering all-time best 72 games, and stormed to a championship.

[riseagainst]

i wouldnt be surprised if he hit the 40k mark.

[JohnMax]

don't forget he missed a year with a broken foot

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Probably not. And if he did, as somebody else said, Chicago doesn't win as many titles. Kerr said as much on "Open Court" last year (don't know how much value you put into his words).

[Mr Feeny]

don't forget he missed a year with a broken foot

Yup. That was another season. He would almost definitely have had 40 thousand points or above.
Lebron or Durant may still end up breaking it one day. Lebron has 24k points at 30. It's insane.

[dunksby]

As long as I know nobody forced him to retire, I don't hold it against MJ for retiring but what ifs don't really apply when he didn't want to play basketball.

[bizil]

I think MJ for sure could have passed Kareem if he never retired. In terms of rings, the Bulls would have won at least 7-8 rings. I just think MJ was that damn epic and they would have possibly even FOUR-PEATED at some point. But I gotta admit, I think the Rockets with Hakeen-Clyde leading the way would have been the Bulls toughest test. If any team were to beat them, I think it would have been them.

[lilteapot]

I don't think he would pass him "for sure", since 37k+ points is a lot of ****ing points. But he'd be pretty close.

[ArbitraryWater]

Probably not. And if he did, as somebody else said, Chicago doesn't win as many titles. Kerr said as much on "Open Court" last year (don't know how much value you put into his words).

^

People are reaching when they say he couldn't have or only could have won of the two (scoring record or 6 rings), had MJ not retired he'd be going on 40 thousand points with a minimum 7 rings.

[LAZERUSS]

Using "what-ifs"...

Kareem (Alcindor) was already a top-5 center in the entire world by his soph season at UCLA. Had players been allowed to jump to the NBA after one year of college (or as in some cases, without ever going to college), and he would have probably easily added another 6000+ points.

Same with Chamberlain, who was already dominating the college player of the year while in HS. Hell, he was DRAFTED while in HS. Easily another 6000+ points (he scored 2700 in his rookie season.) Then, factor in that he left basketball after a season in which he finished 4th in the MVP voting, and set a FG% record that still stands...and in fact, in his very last game of his career he hung a 23 point game (on 9-16 shooting, to go along with 21 rebounds)...how many more seasons could he have played? THEN, and this was touched upon earlier in this thread...how much more could he have scored had he not listened to his coach's? He averaged 40 ppg over the course of his first seven seasons...combined. Then, because he was asked to...dramatically cut back his shooting in the next three seasons...and could "only" average 23 ppg over that span. BUT, his new coach in the '69-70 season asked Wilt to become the focal point of the offense...and boom...led the league at 32.2 ppg before he blew out his knee. Clearly, had Wilt been asked to score, he likely would have added 2000+ points between '67 -'69.

I don't think there is any question that Chamberlain COULD have scored 40,000+ points.

[Cold soul]

I think he could have yes.

[SamuraiSWISH]

^

People are reaching when they say he couldn't have or only could have won of the two (scoring record or 6 rings), had MJ not retired he'd be going on 40 thousand points with a minimum 7 rings.
A LeStan speaking truth.

[Odinn]

The difference between them is nearly 6000 points. And Jordan in his prime scored 2400+ points per season. If he wasn't injured in 1985-86 season and wasn't retired in 1993-94 and 1994-95, he could have easily surpass KAJ at the age of 34 with not needing any other situationals.

[yarrak]

The difference between them is nearly 6000 points. And Jordan in his prime scored 2400+ points per season. If he wasn't injured in 1985-86 season and wasn't retired in 1993-94 and 1994-95, he could have easily surpass KAJ at the age of 34 with not needing any other situationals.

Odiinn pici has a point here.

Without any injuries, there is a pretty good chance he passes Kareem.

[Collie]

The main reason why MJ never passed Kareem was because he was so damn successful. He'd accomplished everything he'd set out to do and retired in 98 because, well, what else did he have to accomplish? He was still a great player in 98 and could have averaged maybe 26-27 ppg for 2 more years. Plus IF he played in 94 and 95 (his 2nd year remains the same), you'd be looking at 40k+ points.

[Dragonyeuw]

Lets put it this way: MJ had,what,32+K points when he retired in 03? The 94 and 95 seasons( assuming healthy) was probably about 4,800 to 5,000 lost right there. He very well could have been at 37K in 98 after the 6th championship. He could have broken the record had he played the 99 lockout year, or at worst in 2000 at 37. Or, had he not lost almost the entire 86 season, combined with not retiring in 94 and missing most of 95, he pretty much could have been knocking on Kareem's door by the time he was 35. Its all speculation and a lot of what ifs, but its pretty clear the 86 and 94/95 lost seasons had a big impact on his numbers. At worst he could have retired the number 2 scorer had he walked away for good after the 98 finals.

[Angel Face]

Obviously, take a note that MJ got injured in his sophomore year and he still averaged 23ppg, if that would've been a healthy year it's safe to say that he could have averaged 29 - 30 ppg since in his rookie year he averaged 28 and 37 in his 3rd year. Like OP said if he didn't retire for 2 years that could have been another 2 years of 30+ ppg.

[Asukal]

I hate IFs but yes he could have. MJ is the game's best scorer. :confusedshrug:

[Psileas]

Using "what-ifs"...

Kareem (Alcindor) was already a top-5 center in the entire world by his soph season at UCLA. Had players been allowed to jump to the NBA after one year of college (or as in some cases, without ever going to college), and he would have probably easily added another 6000+ points.

Same with Chamberlain, who was already dominating the college player of the year while in HS. Hell, he was DRAFTED while in HS. Easily another 6000+ points (he scored 2700 in his rookie season.) Then, factor in that he left basketball after a season in which he finished 4th in the MVP voting, and set a FG% record that still stands...and in fact, in his very last game of his career he hung a 23 point game (on 9-16 shooting, to go along with 21 rebounds)...how many more seasons could he have played? THEN, and this was touched upon earlier in this thread...how much more could he have scored had he not listened to his coach's? He averaged 40 ppg over the course of his first seven seasons...combined. Then, because he was asked to...dramatically cut back his shooting in the next three seasons...and could "only" average 23 ppg over that span. BUT, his new coach in the '69-70 season asked Wilt to become the focal point of the offense...and boom...led the league at 32.2 ppg before he blew out his knee. Clearly, had Wilt been asked to score, he likely would have added 2000+ points between '67 -'69.

I don't think there is any question that Chamberlain COULD have scored 40,000+ points.

Yeah, anyone among Wilt, Kareem and Jordan could have scored 40,000 points in their careers under the correct circumstances.
Let's not forget, Kareem was 22 going for 23 as a rookie, which is 1 year older even than the typical 80's-early/mid 90's rookie, so, that's already a 2,000+ point season missed. Kareem having played in '67-'69 would, imo, easily have scored 6,000 points more. Plus, he missed the equivalent of about half a season due to his 1975 and 1978 injuries, so, that's another 1,000 points there.
Kareem would have been a 45,000+ point scorer had he been allowed to play in the NBA for as long as he was at that level.

[Roundball_Rock]

Yeah, anyone among Wilt, Kareem and Jordan could have scored 40,000 points in their careers under the correct circumstances.


Exactly. However, I think it is clear who the GOAT scorer was among the three. When unleashed to score no one did it better than Wilt.

[sp6r=underrated]

He obviously could have passed Kareem without the retirement. The dude led the league in scoring ten times with absurd efficiency generally hitting about 2,400-2,500 points a season. I don't think it is a question that it was a real possibility he would have ended up the leading scorer.

The question I've wondered is whether playing full seasons in 94 and 95 would have caused him to decline quicker. The possibility exists because of the impact of increased mileage and the chance of severely reduced abilities due to an injury such as a torn ACL that is risked every time a player is on the court.

[D-FENS]

Assuming 30ppg, 75 games a year, and 18 seasons he gets 40,500 points.

I don't think anyone ever cracks 40,000 points.

LeBron has the only chance really, and he needs to stay injury free for the next 9 seasons and average 22 ppg. That's a lot of mileage. If he sticks around for 10-11 more seasons, he may play against LeBron James Jr.!

[DatAsh]

If all of those what ifs came true, maybe. Way too many what ifs though.

Only thing I agree with is that his 2 year baseball break made him worse.

[DaRkJaWs]

What does it freakin matter? If wilt had jumped straight into the nba from high school and had his scoring years been 82 game seasons, he would have finished with 45,000+ points. Career #s mean something depending on how quickly they did it, meaning per season #s matter, an in that category wilt is #1. Nobody should give a damn about whether Jordan could have more points than Kareem.

[beau_boy04]

yes sir jordan easily could have surpassed kareem had he not retired the first time around.

[Nike D'Antoni]

Two more seasons no. But if played 3 more, I think so.

[8Ball]

No.

Jordan's knees were finished already the first season back on wizards. Had to get his knee drained 3x before surgery.

And that was after a 3 year layoff.

If he had accumulated more volume in 94, 95, 99, 00, 01 he would have been done as a player end of 01 season.

[Lebron23]

No

He looks physically washed up in 2001-2003

[Nike D'Antoni]

Always remain ifs, but Lebron did it.

[2much_knowledge]

All-Time Scoring Record?

MJ retired to play baseball for what would equate to the last 2 years of his physical prime. That '94 team w/ MJ would've won a 4th consecutive championship had he been there. And if he stayed and didn't get rusty, who knows if they could've won in 1995 too.

Back to the points. MJ in '93 put up 33 ppg, allowing for slight regression in the '94 season let's say he'd average anywhere between 30 - 33 ppg.

In 1995 if he played the whole season, and not just 17 reg. season games? Based on his 1996 numbers, I think it's safe to to say he'd be putting up around 31 ppg ... give him another season of 31 ppg.

Then if Krause, PJ, and Pippen's egos didn't collectively destroy the Bulls. Or if MJ would've stuck around to chase individual glory like current Kobe, assumably the years he missed until he retired @ 40 years old in 2003.

If at 35 years old in 1998, MJ was putting up 29 ppg. Allowing for regression let's say:

1999: 28 ppg
2000: 27 ppg
2001: 26 ppg

Assuming he plays all 82 games those seasons as he typically did, or as he did from ages 33 - 35, and 40? It would be a pretty safe bet that his accumlative point total playing until he was 40 years old, keeping his Wizards averages and totals ...

Would've definitely put his accumulative point total higher than Kareem.

What do you think?

And water is wet. That is obvious

At his paste, in 1,072 games he had over 3,000 more points than lebron. Only player not named wilt to score 3,000 points in a season

[2much_knowledge]

No.

Jordan's knees were finished already the first season back on wizards. Had to get his knee drained 3x before surgery.

And that was after a 3 year layoff.

If he had accumulated more volume in 94, 95, 99, 00, 01 he would have been done as a player end of 01 season.

I was impressed by how many people were posting smart stuff, dumb free for 2 pages and a half til i realized this was in 2015 and then you came lol

Congrats on lowering the i.q in here

[Airupthere]

He could have if he really wanted it. 3 more seasons of averaging what he did. But that never really mattered at the time it seems. I didn't think people said "MJ has to break the scoring record in order to be certified GOAT". I mean, that speaks volumes. It means, say no more, you've proven you are the GOAT. Meanwhile with Lebron, he has to keep extending that play in order to earn additional criteria.

[2much_knowledge]

He could have if he really wanted it. 3 more seasons of averaging what he did. But that never really mattered at the time it seems. I didn't think people said "MJ has to break the scoring record in order to be certified GOAT". I mean, that speaks volumes. It means, say no more, you've proven you are the GOAT. Meanwhile with Lebron, he has to keep extending that play in order to earn additional criteria.

Bingo.

[WhiteKyrie]

No one cared about it. And I still think it’s overrated. Karl Malone is 3rd. Was he the third best scorer ever? :roll: no one would ever claim this.

[AlternativeAcc.]

No one cared about it. And I still think it’s overrated. Karl Malone is 3rd. Was he the third best scorer ever? :roll: no one would ever claim this.

Lebrons top 4 in assists too. Is Malone?

Why did LeBron peak higher in the postseason as a scorer than Kobe, when Kobe was only a scorer?

[And1AllDay]

No one cared about it. And I still think it’s overrated. Karl Malone is 3rd. Was he the third best scorer ever? :roll: no one would ever claim this.

did you forget BRAN is also #1 in playoff pts and #2 in FMVP? get a life :oldlol:

[Keno]

nope, didn't have the mental toughness to play more.

[8Ball]

I was impressed by how many people were posting smart stuff, dumb free for 2 pages and a half til i realized this was in 2015 and then you came lol

Congrats on lowering the i.q in here

Wrong.

This was in his first season:


Now a chronic knee injury has him thinking about a spell on the injured list, and it couldn't come at a worse time for his slumping Washington Wizards.


"My mind is still consistent," Jordan said. "But my body isn't."

Jordan has been bothered by tendinitis in his right knee since he began workouts in preparation for his second comeback. He has had fluid drained from the knee at least three times this season and banged it in a knee-to-knee collision with teammate Etan Thomas 2½ weeks ago. The injury has caused him to miss two games -- Dec. 4 at San Antonio and last Wednesday at Detroit.

So a guy already battling knee tendinitis after 3 years off was suddenly going to be able to add 5 more 82 game seasons BEFORE that??

If Jordan played in 94 and 95 full seasons, he'd be LUCKY to be playing by the 2000 season.

https://www.espn.com/nba/news/2002/0225/1340423.html

[8Ball]

He could have if he really wanted it. 3 more seasons of averaging what he did. But that never really mattered at the time it seems. I didn't think people said "MJ has to break the scoring record in order to be certified GOAT". I mean, that speaks volumes. It means, say no more, you've proven you are the GOAT. Meanwhile with Lebron, he has to keep extending that play in order to earn additional criteria.

Wrong.

He could NOT even if he really wanted to.


Jordan's knees were done by training camp of his first wizards season and you Jordan stans magically think he could have added 300 more games to his body. Give me a break.



Jordan has been bothered by tendinitis in his right knee since he began workouts in preparation for his second comeback. He has had fluid drained from the knee at least three times this season and banged it in a knee-to-knee collision with teammate Etan Thomas 2½ weeks ago. The injury has caused him to miss two games -- Dec. 4 at San Antonio and last Wednesday at Detroit.

[And1AllDay]

im seeing beatdown after beatdown being served up by 8ball in this thread

hes on fiiiiiiiiiiire

[8Ball]

im seeing beatdown after beatdown being served up by 8ball in this thread

hes on fiiiiiiiiiiire

I know Jordan's career more than his fans do.


They try to slip in all kinds of bullshit into the kitchen. Doesn't work.