Top 10 Wings (SG or SF): 1984-1998 vs. 2000-2014

[3ball]

After this 1st round debacle, does Kawhi even deserve to make Honorable Mention for the 2000-2014 wings?.. And doesn't the 1984-1998 wings look like a much deeper class?


..........TOP 10 WINGS (SG or SF)


...2000-2014.............1984-1998

Kobe Bryant............. Michael Jordan
LeBron James........... Larry Bird
Dwayne Wade........ Clyde Drexler
Kevin Durant.......... Dominique Wilkins
Tracey McGrady..... Grant Hill
James Harden........ Penny Hardaway
Paul Pierce.............. Scottie Pippen
Carmelo Anthony...... Adrian Dantley
Vince Carter.......... James Worthy
Allen Iverson........... Reggie Miller



HM 1984-1998: Dr. J, Dennis Rodman, Alex English, Chris Mullin, Glen Rice, Kiki Vandeweghe (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=360034), Mark Aguirre, Glenn Robinson, Jamaal Mashburn, Detlef Schrempf, Reggie Lewis, Latrell Sprewell, Sidney Moncrief, Mitch Richmond, Joe Dumars, Alvin Robertson, Dennis Johnson, Ronaldo Blackman, Fat Lever, Jeff Hornacek, Allan Houston, Eddie Jones, Jeff Malone

HM 2000-2014: Ron Artest, Shawn Marion, Kawhi Leonard, Ray Allen, Paul George, Manu Ginobili, Brandon Roy, Joe Johnson, Rip Hamilton, Gilbert Arenas, Michael Redd, Peja Stojakovic, Antawn Jamison, Luol Deng, Rashard Lewis
.

[Fire Colangelo]

.
..........TOP 10 WINGS (SG or SF)


...2000-2014.............1984-1998

Kobe Bryant............. Michael Jordan
LeBron James........... Larry Bird
Dwayne Wade.......... Scottie Pippen
Kevin Durant............ Dr. J
James Harden.......... Clyde Drexler
Tracy McGrady......... Dominique Wilkins
Paul Pierce.............. James Worthy
Carmelo Anthony...... Bernard King
Vince Carter............ Grant Hill
Allen Iverson........... Penny Hardaway


HM 1984-1998: Joe Dumars, Sidney Moncrief, Alvin Robertson, Reggie Miller, Dennis Johnson, Ronaldo Blackman, Mitch Richmond, Dennis Rodman, Adrian Dantley, Alex English, Chris Mullin, Glen Rice, Kiki Vandeweghe, Mark Aguirre, Glenn Robinson, Jamaal Mashburn, Detlef Schrempf, Reggie Lewis, Latrell Sprewell, Fat Lever, Jeff Hornacek, Allan Houston, Eddie Jones, Jeff Malone

HM 2000-2014: Ray Allen, Manu Ginobili, Brandon Roy, Ron Artest, Paul George, Joe Johnson, Rip Hamilton, Gilbert Arenas, Ron Artest, Shawn Marion, Michael Redd, Peja Stojakovic, Antawn Jamison, Luol Deng, Rashard Lewis


What am I missing here?... The top 10 lists look like 10-0 sweep for the previous era and clearly more depth with the next bests... I was really reaching for names at the end with the 2000-2014 HM wings.. is anyone missing?

Dwyane Wade > Scottie Pippen
Paul Pierce > James Worthy
KD >>>> Dr J (shell of himself after 84)
Vince Carter >> Grant Hill (Hill's best season was in 2000 lol, funny you'd include him in 84-1998)
Allen Iverson >>>>> Penny
Carmelo Anthony > Benard King

You can argue between Tmac and Wilkins, LeBron over Bird can be argued as well.

The fact you included the likes of Dr J, Benard King, Grant Hill in the 84-98 era reeks of desperation.

[bizil]

To be frank, The golden era of SF's was in the 80's. And the Golden Era of the SG's was in the early 2000s. In terms of HOF caliber depth at those positions, those were the best. In today's game, the SG spot is at somewhat of a low point in terms of depth. The SF spot is in damn good shape with Bron, Durant, and Melo up top. But in comparison to the 80's SF's, the depth isn't there. The PG position and PF position are the two deepest positions in the league right now BY FAR!

[3ball]

Dwyane Wade > Scottie Pippen
Paul Pierce > James Worthy
KD >>>> Dr J (shell of himself after 84)
Vince Carter > Grant Hill (Hill's best season was in 2000 lol, funny you'd include him in 84-1998)
Allen Iverson > Penny
Carmelo Anthony > Benard King


Worthy > Pierce... that's just the consensus... more all-star games, more rings, and he got the 1988 Finals MVP.

Regarding Vince Carter vs. Grant Hill - at no point in Vince's career would anybody take him over a prime Grant Hill (1995-2000)... again, i think this would be the consensus here.

You are right about Dr. J though... but he was still averaging 20 ppg, 5 reb, 3 assists, with a 20 PER and 55% TS in 1985 - so it's okay to include him - but sure, durant's prime is better than that.

King and Anthony is close... I think a peak Bernard is more unstoppable and played better competition.

Iverson over Penny?.. are you serious?... so if you were going to draft a team, you would take a 6'1" gunner over an unselfish 6'7" point guard that can score?... :rolleyes: ... gimme a break.... bad GM'ing.





You can argue between Tmac and Wilkins, LeBron over Bird can be argued as well.


Nah, Wilkins actually did damage in the playoffs against real comp, while Bird has more rings and played a more effective brand basketball.





The fact you included the likes of Dr J, Benard King, Grant Hill in the 84-98 era reeks of desperation.


King's career went from 1978 to 1993, and his crowning season was Jordan's rookie year.

Grant Hill's prime was pre-injury from 1995-2000, when he was headed towards all-time great status - everything after that means nothing - he was barely a starter after his injury.
.

[tpols]

Wow aside from Jordan over Kobe everyone from the 2000s was better or had much longer primes for the designated time periods (for example 10 years of prime LeBron > 4-5 years of Larry bird as half of his great prime is cut off here)

And the third best perimeter player was Jordans teammate.. Has anyone ever had it so easy?

Thanks for the comparison 3ball.

[SugarHill]

Kobe Bryant = Michael Jordan (Kobe is a modern MJ..same players with Kobe being more skilled and Jordan slightly more athletic)
LeBron James > Larry Bird (overrated Bird with stacked teams his whole career)
Dwayne Wade >>> Scottie Pippen (WTF)
Kevin Durant >>> Dr. J (peaked in ABA and Durant has shown to be clearly better for what Dr J showed in the 80s....what's up with afros? docked points)
James Harden >>> Clyde Drexler (Clyde had worse hair than LeBron and couldn't dribble with both hands plus looked at the ball smh)
Tracy McGrady > Dominique Wilkins (peak T-Mac was as good as Kobe)
Paul Pierce > James Worthy (weak 80s isn't worthy)
Carmelo Anthony = Bernard King (they both wack)
Vince Carter <<< Grant Hill
Allen Iverson >>> Penny Hardaway (WTF)

this is how retarded you sound, 3ball

[KobesFinger]

Worthy > Pierce... that's just the consensus... more all-star games, more rings, and he got the 1988 Finals MVP.

Regarding Vince Carter vs. Grant Hill - at no point in Vince's career would anybody take him over a prime Grant Hill (1995-2000)... again, i think this would be the consensus here.

You are right about Dr. J though... but he was still averaging 20 ppg, 5 reb, 3 assists, with a 20 PER and 55% TS in 1985 - so it's okay to include him - but sure, durant's prime is better than that.

King and Anthony is close... I think a peak Bernard is more unstoppable and played better competition.

Iverson over Penny?.. are you serious?... so if you were going to draft a team, you would take a 6'1" gunner over an unselfish 6'7" point guard that can score?... :rolleyes: ... gimme a break.... bad GM'ing.



Nah, Wilkins actually did damage in the playoffs against real comp, while Bird has more rings and played a more effective brand basketball.



King's career went from 1978 to 1993, and his crowning season was Jordan's rookie year.

Grant Hill's prime was pre-injury from 1995-2000, when he was headed towards all-time great status - everything after that means nothing - he was barely a starter after his injury.
.

1) Harden over Allen?
2) Penny is a PG, you even say so yourself.
3) So you have 3 years of Dr J, 3 years of Grant Hill and post injury Bernard King as equal to or superior to peak KD, peak Vince and peak Melo?
4) Don't forget Pierce won the 2008 FMVP and is a 10 time all star to Worthy's 7. And its easier winning rings with Kareem and Magic than it is with Antoine Walker.

[SHAQisGOAT]

I'd say more something like (not focusing only on top10):

Jordan vs Kobe - Bryant's great but MJ is simply above

Bird vs LeBron - Larry gets the slight edge, plenty/mostly due to peak also

(old) Erving vs Durant - in terms of peak they go neck-to-neck but since it's after 1983, KD takes this

Drexler vs Wade - extremely close but Wade takes it

Wilkins vs Melo - could go either way but I think Nique is above

Moncrief vs Iveron - in terms of absolute peak and OVERALL this is pretty close unlike most may think/say but I gotta go with AI since Sid was never even the same after injuries around 1986

King vs Pierce - Benard is above in terms of peak but Paul got him on longevity due to injury

Pippen vs McGrady - Tracy as a 1st option, Scottie as a 2nd and too

Miller vs Allen - call it a wash really

Richmmond vs Carter - Mitch is underrated many times but I'd most likely go with Carter in a close one (same vs Dumars)

Worthy vs Paul George or Ron Artest (?) - Big Game gets it

Dantley/English/Mullin/(younger) Rodman/Detlef/Pressey/Kiki/Hornacek/Purvis Short/Rice vs any 10 SF's you can bring from 2000-2014 apart from the ones I've previously mentioned, "combined" - first 10 CLEARLY take the cake


80's was the golden era for SF's overall (considering top-spots and depth) but you're only going since 1984 and you had/have some all-time greats in recent times.

SG position was ****ing stacked in the early 00's but nowadays is pretty weak overall, especially when compared to the depth in the mid-to-late 80's.

........

Overall/on average and without going all that much over it, I'd probably give it to 1984-1998... but the comparison is a bit random and selective when you consider only top10 then SG or SF, and from 1984-1998 vs 2000-2014.

[Fire Colangelo]

Worthy > Pierce... that's just the consensus... more all-star games, more rings, and he got the 1988 Finals MVP.

Regarding Vince Carter vs. Grant Hill - at no point in Vince's career would anybody take him over a prime Grant Hill (1995-2000)... again, i think this would be the consensus here.

You are right about Dr. J though... but he was still averaging 20 ppg, 5 reb, 3 assists, with a 20 PER and 55% TS in 1985 - so it's okay to include him - but sure, durant's prime is better than that.

King and Anthony is close... I think a peak Bernard is more unstoppable and played better competition.

Iverson over Penny?.. are you serious?... so if you were going to draft a team, you would take a 6'1" gunner over an unselfish 6'7" point guard that can score?... :rolleyes: ... gimme a break.... bad GM'ing.



Nah, Wilkins actually did damage in the playoffs against real comp, while Bird has more rings and played a more effective brand basketball.



King's career went from 1978 to 1993, and his crowning season was Jordan's rookie year.

Grant Hill's prime was pre-injury from 1995-2000, when he was headed towards all-time great status - everything after that means nothing - he was barely a starter after his injury.
.

:oldlol:

Pierce has more all star games, also has one FMVP, also carried the Celtics for most of his carrier instead of playing third fiddle like Worthy did.

Hill was great, but he didn't do much during 95-98 other than a few first round exits, while Vince led his team to the 2nd round pretty regularly in his career. Not to mention Hill's stats peaked in 2000, which would be included in the 2000-2014 era.

Carmelo has more all star games, longer lasting prime. King's "peak" season in 85 had the new york knicks winning like 30 games that year.

Penny played PG in his prime. And who cares who I'd take in a draft? I would take Greg Oden over Kobe, but guess what? Kobe >>>> Oden. Iverson >>>>> Penny, peak wise and career wise.

It's funny how you have Dr J, who is probably the worst on 84-98 list matched up with Kevin Durant, who is the 2nd/3rd best on the 2000-14 list to fit your agenda.

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[3ball]

1) Harden over Allen?


What difference does it make - Reggie Miller, Mitch Richmond, Sidney Moncrief, Dantley are better than both and they're all in HM.





2) Penny is a PG, you said so yourself.


he's like lebron in that way.





3) So you have 3 years of Dr J, 3 years of Grant Hill and post injury Bernard King as equal to or superior to peak KD, peak Vince and peak Melo?


If their peak fell within the range (as Grant Hill and Bernard's did) than I think it's okay to just look at their peak, especially if their peak was cut short by injury.





4) Don't forget Pierce won the 2008 FMVP and is a 10 time all star to Worthy's 7. And its easier winning rings with Kareem and Magic than it is with Antoine Walker.


if you want to split hairs about the top 10, fine.

but clearly, the 1984-1998 wings had far greater depth and overall players than the 2000-2014.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Dwyane Wade > Scottie Pippen
Paul Pierce > James Worthy
KD >>>> Dr J (shell of himself after 84)
Vince Carter >> Grant Hill (Hill's best season was in 2000 lol, funny you'd include him in 84-1998)
Allen Iverson >>>>> Penny
Carmelo Anthony > Benard King

You can argue between Tmac and Wilkins, LeBron over Bird can be argued as well.

The fact you included the likes of Dr J, Benard King, Grant Hill in the 84-98 era reeks of desperation.


That many >'s on KD over Dr J is dumb, even if Erving was past his peak/prime... When comparing both their peaks is neck-to-neck also.

AI that much greater than Penny, huh? :rolleyes: :facepalm

Carmelo over King? If you're thinking peak, Bernard's clearly above.
And King "only" got injured late into the 1984-85 season, being in his peak since 1984.

[Fire Colangelo]

That many >'s on KD over Dr J is dumb, even if Erving was past his peak/prime... When comparing both their peaks is neck-to-neck also.

AI that much greater than Penny, huh? :rolleyes: :facepalm

Carmelo over King? If you're thinking peak, Bernard's clearly above.
And King "only" got injured late into the 1984-85 season, being in his peak since 1984.

Well, I'm comparing their careers overall given the time periods in the OP.

I agree prime/peak KD vs prime/peak Erving is neck and neck. But peak KD >>> way past prime Erving wouldn't you agree? For example, 10-14 KD >>> 84-87 Erving, that's the way I was ranking it.

AI isn't that much greater, you're right. I was thinking career wise. But I'd still take AI over Penny. Penny didn't really reach his prime imo.

Benard King only has one and a half season in the 84-98 time period. I'd take Carmelo over that...

[SugarHill]

What difference does it make - Reggie Miller, Mitch Richmond, Sidney Moncrief, Dantley are better than both and they're all in HM.



How is Reggie Miller better than Harden? Do you think Reggie Miller would be an MVP candidate right now?

[3ball]

Carmelo has more all star games, longer lasting prime. King's "peak" season in 85 had the new york knicks winning like 30 games that year.


if their peak falls within the range, as is the case for King, Hill, Penny, and say, Paul George, than it's okay to use only their peak, especially if their peak was cut short by injury.





It's funny how you have Dr J, who is probably the worst on 84-98 list matched up with Kevin Durant, who is the 2nd/3rd best on the 2000-14 list to fit your agenda.


This was a mistake - but easily fixable - at this point in durant's career, a prime Adrian Dantley was just as good... Durant's a lot like him - league-leading scorer that hasn't won shit... I almost included Dantley in there to begin with (that's how deep the wings were back then).





Pierce has more all star games, also has one FMVP, also carried the Celtics for most of his carrier instead of playing third fiddle like Worthy did.


if you want to split hairs about the top 10, fine.

but clearly, the 1984-1998 wings had far greater depth and overall players than the 2000-2014.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Kobe Bryant............. Michael Jordan
LeBron James........... Larry Bird
Dwayne Wade.......... Scottie Pippen
Kevin Durant............ Dr. J
James Harden.......... Clyde Drexler
Tracy McGrady......... Dominique Wilkins
Paul Pierce.............. James Worthy
Carmelo Anthony...... Bernard King
Vince Carter............ Grant Hill
Allen Iverson........... Penny Hardaway

[Fire Colangelo]

if their peak falls within the range, as is the case for King, Hill, Penny, and say, Paul George, than it's okay to use only their peak, especially if their peak was cut short by injury.



This was a mistake - but easily fixable - at this point in durant's career, a prime Adrian Dantley was just as good... Durant's a lot like him - league-leading scorer that hasn't won shit... I almost included Dantley in there to begin with (that's how deep the wings were back then).



if you want to split hairs about the top 10, fine.

but clearly, the 1984-1998 wings had far greater depth and overall players than the 2000-2014.

So are we comparing peaks or careers? Because peak Tmac > Wilkins.

Kevin Durant >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Adrian Dantley.

Dantley is Gilbert Arenas level.

[3ball]

How is Reggie Miller better than Harden? Do you think Reggie Miller would be an MVP candidate right now?


if i mention 4 guys and you only disagree with one of them, then why bother respond??... the other 3 guys take care of it anyway... again, this shows how deep the previous wings were.

also, if reggie miller and harden were put on 1000 different randomly selected teams, reggie would have a better likelihood of being on more championship teams, because his game provides a GOAT level of something every team needs, and his game fits in seemlessly with virtually any team.

again, if you want to split hairs about the top 10, fine... but clearly, the 1984-1998 wings had far greater depth and overall players than the 2000-2014.

[KobesFinger]

What difference does it make - Reggie Miller, Mitch Richmond, Sidney Moncrief, Dantley are better than both and they're all in HM.



he's like lebron in that way.



If their peak fell within the range (as Grant Hill and Bernard's did) than I think it's okay to just look at their peak, especially if their peak was cut short by injury.



if you want to split hairs about the top 10, fine.

but clearly, the 1984-1998 wings had far greater depth and overall players than the 2000-2014.

1) No, just no. What does Ray Allen does literally everything better than Reggier Miller. I haven't seen enough of the others to make a judgement, but please with the 90s mythology. The only thing Reggie did at an elite level, Allen does better.

2) No he's not "like LeBron" in that way. LeBron can legit play 1-4 but is best at the 3 and 4 due to his physique, whereas Penny could play 1-3 but was best at 1. He was a PG through and through whereas LeBron is a forward with elite PG skills

3) Who's splitting hairs? You got your facts wrong and mentioned Worthy's FMVP as if Pierce doesn't have one

4) As for depth, you've listed a bunch of players who had 2 or fewer seasons of 20PPG (so solid but not great), role players or did their stuff on crap teams like the Mavs and Nuggets.

Add: AK47, Caron Butler, Klay Thompson, remove Artest (you have him twice), Rudy Gay, Kawhi Leonard, Tayshaun Prince, Bruce Bowen, Shane Battier and Tony Allen

[Moonbeam]

.
..........TOP 10 WINGS (SG or SF)


...2000-2014.............1984-1998

Kobe Bryant............. Michael Jordan
LeBron James........... Larry Bird
Dwayne Wade.......... Scottie Pippen
Kevin Durant............ Dr. J
James Harden.......... Clyde Drexler
Tracy McGrady......... Dominique Wilkins
Paul Pierce.............. James Worthy
Carmelo Anthony...... Bernard King
Vince Carter............ Grant Hill
Allen Iverson........... Penny Hardaway


HM 1984-1998: Joe Dumars, Sidney Moncrief, Alvin Robertson, Reggie Miller, Dennis Johnson, Ronaldo Blackman, Mitch Richmond, Dennis Rodman, Adrian Dantley, Alex English, Chris Mullin, Glen Rice, Kiki Vandeweghe, Mark Aguirre, Glenn Robinson, Jamaal Mashburn, Detlef Schrempf, Reggie Lewis, Latrell Sprewell, Fat Lever, Jeff Hornacek, Allan Houston, Eddie Jones, Jeff Malone

HM 2000-2014: Ray Allen, Manu Ginobili, Brandon Roy, Ron Artest, Paul George, Joe Johnson, Rip Hamilton, Gilbert Arenas, Ron Artest, Shawn Marion, Michael Redd, Peja Stojakovic, Antawn Jamison, Luol Deng, Rashard Lewis


What am I missing here?... The top 10 lists look like 10-0 sweep for the previous era and clearly more depth with the next bests... I was really reaching for names at the end with the 2000-2014 HM wings.. is anyone missing?

Not sure I agree with all of the choices for the teams vs. the HMs (would bump up Reggie, Dantley, and English), but given the choices you've provided:

Usually considering this from peak and career results in the same choice, but I'll note where it differs.

I'd choose MJ over Kobe
LeBron over Bird (just barely)
Wade over Pippen (just barely)
Durant over Dr. J (though would take earlier versions of Doc over Durant, and Dr. J easily for career)
Drexler over Harden
T-Mac over Nique
Pierce over Worthy
King over Anthony
Hill over Carter (though career-wise I just barely take Carter)
Penny over Iverson (though career-wise I take Iverson)

[Moonbeam]

So are we comparing peaks or careers? Because peak Tmac > Wilkins.

Kevin Durant >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Adrian Dantley.

Dantley is Gilbert Arenas level.

Dantley has a great case as one of the best 5-10 scorers in history. He was way better than Arenas. I agree that peak Durant is better than Dantley due to other areas, but Dantley was a legend in his own right.

It may sound absurd to consider Dantley a top 5-10 scorer, but think about this:

Consider the direct scoreboard impact of a player's shooting versus what would be expected using league average efficiency, on a per 100 possession basis. I've called this Score+, and it's available since the 1951-52 season. Out of players with 5000+ career minutes, do you know how many rank ahead of Dantley? None.

Now consider replacing shot attempts not with league average efficiency, but league average efficiency at a player's position. With different rule changes, certain positions have had an easier time putting up efficiency baskets than others. I call this PosScore+, and again define it per 100 possessions. How many players are ahead of Dantley with at least 5000 MP? None.

Now replace shot attempts with average efficiency for a player's team, and again define it per 100 possessions. I call this one TeamScore+. How many players with at least 5000 MP rank ahead of Dantley? None.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...tmlview?pli=1#

The guy was crazy good at scoring. Check him out if you haven't. He won't jump out at you with flashy plays, but the guy had an incredible array of moves aided by pump fakes and amazing footwork.

[Kvnzhangyay]

Not sure I agree with all of the choices for the teams vs. the HMs (would bump up Reggie, Dantley, and English), but given the choices you've provided:

Usually considering this from peak and career results in the same choice, but I'll note where it differs.

I'd choose MJ over Kobe
LeBron over Bird (just barely)
Wade over Pippen (just barely)
Durant over Dr. J (though would take earlier versions of Doc over Durant, and Dr. J easily for career)
Drexler over Harden
T-Mac over Nique
Pierce over Worthy
King over Anthony
Hill over Carter (though career-wise I just barely take Carter)
Penny over Iverson (though career-wise I take Iverson)

This is what i'd choose except worthy over pierce

[Moonbeam]

This is what i'd choose except worthy over pierce

That's a tough call, and I love Big Game James, but I think Pierce has added more career value due to longevity, and I think at his peak he was just a bit better overall due to passing.

[3ball]

So are we comparing peaks or careers? Because peak Tmac > Wilkins.


we can compare peaks if the peaks fall within the time ranges.

regarding tmac and wilkins - wilkins is greater easily.. just more powerful and tough... that one's not close.

regarding Kevin Durant >>>>> Adrian Dantley... he's not that much better... they are both volume scorers that led the league in scoring... not much else.

It's not some sort of victory to find a matchup that 2000-2014 wins... Magic would win all matchups among the point guards or SF's for that matter... it happens.





Dantley is Gilbert Arenas level.


this exposes is bias... Dantley is clearly better than Arenas.

and again, if we can split hairs all day over the top 10... but clearly, the 1984-1998 wings had far greater depth and overall players than the 2000-2014.
.

[Milbuck]

I'd choose MJ over Kobe
LeBron over Bird (just barely)
Wade over Pippen (just barely)
Durant over Dr. J (though would take earlier versions of Doc over Durant, and Dr. J easily for career)
Drexler over Harden
T-Mac over Nique
Pierce over Worthy
King over Anthony
Hill over Carter (though career-wise I just barely take Carter)
Penny over Iverson (though career-wise I take Iverson)
I agree with most of this..though I might take Iverson over Penny, if we're going by level of play and not knocking him for stylistic issues we may have with his game/mentality.

[Suguru101]

http://cdn.gifstache.com/2012/9/11/gifstache.com_1894_1347588004.gif

[3ball]

Add: AK47, Caron Butler, Klay Thompson, remove Artest (you have him twice), Rudy Gay, Kawhi Leonard, Tayshaun Prince, Bruce Bowen, Shane Battier and Tony Allen


these guys are vomit compared to anybody in the OP...from either era... you don't see me using Michael Cooper, Jerry Stackhouse, Ron Harper, Sean Elliot or Shareef-Abdur-Rahim do you??.... :facepalm

and klay only arrived this 2015 season... it would be ridiculous to use the 2014 version of klay, or jimmy butler for that matter.
.

[Milbuck]

This is an even more interesting comparison when you factor in that Lebron, Kobe, KD, T-Mac, Wade, etc not only didn't have the luxury of playing against 80s defenses, but also didn't have the luxury of being able to play zero defense themselves and it being totally acceptable.

lol

[Fire Colangelo]

we can compare peaks if the peaks fall within the time ranges.

regarding tmac > wilkins - it's close enough that it's splitting hairs.

regarding Kevin Durant >>>>> Adrian Dantley... he's not that much better... they are both volume scorers that led the league in scoring... not much else.

It's not some sort of victory to find a matchup that 2000-2014 wins... Magic would win all matchups among the point guards or SF's for that matter... it happens.



this exposes is bias... Dantley is clearly better than Arenas.

and again, if we can split hairs all day over the top 10... but clearly, the 1984-1998 wings had far greater depth and overall players than the 2000-2014.

Dantley is a great scorer, that's it. He did nothing else, literally nothing. And even scoring wise, he's not better than Durant. Having him in the same breath as Durant is the same as having Arenas in the same breath as Dantley (which I was trying to show). But even so, Arenas is way closer to Dantley than Dantley is closer to Durant.

It isn't a victory for anything, it's just to expose your stupid agenda.

And lol @ this "splitting hairs". You stated in the OP saying the 84-98 list had the 00-14 list beat 10-0. Just take the loss, I can match the "top 10" in a way that every wing other than Jordan from the 84-98 list would be inferior to the 00-14 list, so what? It's exactly what you did here, and failed miserably.

80s was a strong era for wings, the 90s not so much. Most of the players on your list peaked in the 80s, and you're trying to include him into the 90s era to fit your agenda. :face palm

Not to mention you have Rodman listed as a wing player, and Penny as a wing player too. Might as well include the likes of Francis, Westbrook, Marbury, and KG too since they played like wing players.

And you're not including the likes of: Stackhouse, Finley, Antoine Walker, Kirilenko, Josh Howard, Butler, Granger, Gerald Wallace, etc.

While including players like Eddie Jones, Glenn Robinson, Allan Houston, who were also part of the 00s generation. Glenn Robinson's two all star appearances came in 2000 and 2001, same with Allan Houston.

[Milbuck]

weak troll attempt... the current players would have to deal no spacing - no spacing makes it harder to do everything on offense.

they'd also have to deal with vastly superior paint defense - today's defenders must be within armslength of their man to stay in the paint, which equates to a strict brand of man-to-man defense in the paint.... contrastingly, previous era defenders could stay in the paint even when their man is FAR from armslength reach, which equates to a zone defense in the paint.

in addition to no spacing and superior paint defense that equates to a zone in the paint, today's players would have to deal with actual physicality... indeed, the consensus among commissioners, coaches, players and fans alike, is that today's era is much softer.
I see where you're coming from but I think you're ignoring the fact that Lebron, Kobe, KD, T-Mac, Wade, etc not only didn't have the luxury of playing against 80s defenses, but also didn't have the luxury of being able to play zero defense themselves and it being totally acceptable.

lol

[Moonbeam]

Dantley is a great scorer, that's it. He did nothing else, literally nothing. And even scoring wise, he's not better than Durant. Having him in the same breath as Durant is the same as having Arenas in the same breath as Dantley (which I was trying to show). But even so, Arenas is way closer to Dantley than Dantley is closer to Durant.

It isn't a victory for anything, it's just to expose your stupid agenda.

And lol @ this "splitting hairs". You stated in the OP saying the 84-98 list had the 00-14 list beat 10-0. Just take the loss, I can match the "top 10" in a way that every wing other than Jordan from the 84-98 list would be inferior to the 00-14 list, so what? It's exactly what you did here, and failed miserably.

80s was a strong era for wings, the 90s not so much. Most of the players on your list peaked in the 80s, and you're trying to include him into the 90s era to fit your agenda. :face palm

Not to mention you have Rodman listed as a wing player, and Penny as a wing player too. Might as well include the likes of Francis, Westbrook, Marbury, and KG too since they played like wing players.

And you're not including the likes of: Stackhouse, Finley, Antoine Walker, Kirilenko, Josh Howard, Butler, Granger, Gerald Wallace, etc.

While including players like Eddie Jones, Glenn Robinson, Allan Houston, who were also part of the 00s generation. Glenn Robinson's two all star appearances came in 2000 and 2001, same with Allan Houston.

Scoring is definitely Dantley's forte, but he was an OK rebounder and passer, too. He also had the capacity to play good defense (most notably against the Celtics in 1987 and 1988). I concede that he's not as good as Durant overall, but he was a lot better than Arenas.

Let's also not undersell Dantley's scoring ability. It was historically great, not just great. Durant is in the same tier as a scorer, and it's super rare. Arenas did nothing approaching historical greatness.

[3ball]

Again, we can split hairs all day over the top 10 - the top 10 in any era will be great... but clearly, the 1984-1998 wings have superior depth of great players than 2000-2014.

And it's not some sort of victory to find a matchup within the top 10 that one side wins - both sides have strengths... i.e. Magic would win all matchups among the point guards or SF's in any era... it happens... but the depth of great players is what's important, and that goes to 1984-1998 easily.

blame aau and guys skipping college and skipping learning off-ball and team play.. :oldlol: ... no seriously
.

[magnax1]

00-14 probably has more top tier players. TMac, Bran, Kobe, KD, and AI were all top 3 or 4 players in the league at one point, but Bird and Jordan were probably better than any of them over their whole careers. Kobe and Bran probably both are similar in terms of peak to Bird, but it's hard to give them a nod overall. TMac's peak can be thrown in there with those two probably too.

Dantley deserves a spot over the last 4 or 5 guys you mentioned. In terms of raw scoring there are maybe 3 guys ever who were better. His reputation as a cancer is completely undeserved.

[KobesFinger]

these guys are vomit compared to anybody in the OP...from either era... you don't see me using Michael Cooper, Jerry Stackhouse, Ron Harper, Sean Elliot or Shareef-Abdur-Rahim do you??.... :facepalm

and klay only arrived this 2015 season... it would be ridiculous to use the 2014 version of klay, or jimmy butler for that matter.
.

How do any of those players suck? You included players like Dennis Johnson who cracked 20PPG once as "depth" but Rudy Gay and Danny Granger who did the same are vomit? I also forgot Iguodala who is a great all around player- 18/5/5 with elite D in his prime.

As I said, I included role players (Prince, Bowen and Battier) because you included Rodman who was there to defend and rebound, and was also a 3/4 not a 2/3.

Take Klay out if you want. Jerry Stackhouse is a 2000s player anyway, drafted in 95 and his only AS appearances were 00 and 01. And Reef was drafted in 96, so he was a 2000s player (only AS appearance in 02) and was a PF anyway. I'm surprised you didn't list Harper, he had game.

[Fire Colangelo]

Scoring is definitely Dantley's forte, but he was an OK rebounder and passer, too. He also had the capacity to play good defense (most notably against the Celtics in 1987 and 1988). I concede that he's not as good as Durant overall, but he was a lot better than Arenas.

Let's also not undersell Dantley's scoring ability. It was historically great, not just great. Durant is in the same tier as a scorer, and it's super rare. Arenas did nothing approaching historical greatness.

Dantley's forte, Durant beats him in.

he is no where near Kevin Durant.

[tpols]

CLIFF NOTES

OP goes from saying its 10-0 for top tier perimeter players in 90s era vs 00s.. And when everyone disagrees with him.. Even old heads.. He switches to the 'depth' argument. Off ball passing and navigational efficiency are right around the corner.

[magnax1]

because you included Rodman who was there to defend and rebound, and was also a 3/4 not a 2/3.
Awful argument. Calling Rodman a role player is like calling Kevin Durant a role player. He was the best rebounder ever and a top 5 defender of all time.

[Moonbeam]

Dantley's forte, Durant beats him in.

he is no where near Kevin Durant.

Durant doesn't beat Dantley in scoring (yet). By Score+, Durant has 3 seasons among the 50 best all-time, including 2 in the top 10. Dantley has 5 seasons among the top 50 and 2 in the top 10. I think Durant will become the best scorer ever, though.

Look, I've already got Durant ahead of Dantley on my all-time list. But I don't think the gap is as big as the gap between Dantley and Arenas. Where do you have these guys all-time?

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

MJ/King/Bird/Nique/Drexler vs Kobe/LeBron/Durant/TMac/Wade

Pretty much the Top 5 for each respective era.

For me, its a wash. The 80's are more efficient and durable and I believe most of them are better playoff performers, but that is debatable obviously. The 2K boys are more skilled and talented - at their peak MAYBE better.

[KobesFinger]

Awful argument. Calling Rodman a role player is like calling Kevin Durant a role player. He was the best rebounder ever and a top 5 defender of all time.

My bad, I know Rodman isn't some scrub

[Moonbeam]

I don't get why Nique is so highly regarded. I don't think he was as good as Dantley or English, or King from a peak perspective. His playoff performance is pretty average, Game 7 against the Celtics or not...

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I don't get why Nique is so highly regarded. I don't think he was as good as Dantley or English, or King from a peak perspective. His playoff performance is pretty average, Game 7 against the Celtics or not...

Easily better than Dantley, who was often regarded a black hole. Dantley never played the defense Nique did nor had the finishing ability to go along with the playmaking.

I agree that King is debatable, but English is closer to Dantley than Nique; both an inferior class of player.

[3ball]

CLIFF NOTES

OP goes from saying its 10-0 for top tier perimeter players in 90s era vs 00s.. And when everyone disagrees with him.. Even old heads.. He switches to the 'depth' argument.


the 10-0 comment was a purposeful jab to rile up stans, but i do think an argument can be made.

we know the top 10 from all eras will be great, so it doesn't make sense to split hairs about that, especially when the lists clearly show how much more depth the 1984-1998 class has.
.

[Milbuck]

Durant doesn't beat Dantley in scoring (yet). By Score+, Durant has 3 seasons among the 50 best all-time, including 2 in the top 10. Dantley has 5 seasons among the top 50 and 2 in the top 10. I think Durant will become the best scorer ever, though.
Durant the past couple seasons is without question a better scorer than Dantley ever was. As an overall player it's not too close.

[3ball]

it shouldn't be surprising that previous eras had so much more depth of great wing players - 27% of all shot attempts today are 3-pointers compared to 3% in 1987, so the previous era simply REQUIRED more skilled/creative shot-making and less camping behind the 3-point line.

[Moonbeam]

Easily better than Dantley, who was often regarded a black hole. Dantley never played the defense Nique did nor had the finishing ability to go along with the playmaking.

I agree that King is debatable, but English is closer to Dantley than Nique; both an inferior class of player.

Then why did Dantley average more assists and fewer FGAs than Wilkins per 100 possessions if he was such a black hole? Why was Nique also criticized for his defense?

[magnax1]

I don't get why Nique is so highly regarded. I don't think he was as good as Dantley or English, or King from a peak perspective. His playoff performance is pretty average, Game 7 against the Celtics or not...
He was a very good player, at least top 15 in the league, for a very long time. His peak was never particularly amazing, but he kept churning out 25+ ppg seasons for about a decade. People opinions on him seem to swing widely between extremes. One person just said comparing him to Dantley was ludicrous. Fact is that while his career might not have been as good, Nique was never the dominant scorer that Dantley was. Then there is the other end where people go about saying he would've just been James Worthy if he was on good teams, which is silly for a multitude of reasons.

[Hey Yo]

we can compare peaks if the peaks fall within the time ranges.

regarding tmac and wilkins - wilkins is greater easily.. just more powerful and tough... that one's not close.

regarding Kevin Durant >>>>> Adrian Dantley... he's not that much better... they are both volume scorers that led the league in scoring... not much else.

It's not some sort of victory to find a matchup that 2000-2014 wins... Magic would win all matchups among the point guards or SF's for that matter... it happens.



this exposes is bias... Dantley is clearly better than Arenas.

and again, if we can split hairs all day over the top 10... but clearly, the 1984-1998 wings had far greater depth and overall players than the 2000-2014.
.
When talking Dantley (or any other Western wings of the 80's), the defenses he/they faced during his prime in Utah has to be taken into consideration.

Arenas faced much more difficult defense than Dantley did.

[Shih508]

That many >'s on KD over Dr J is dumb, even if Erving was past his peak/prime... When comparing both their peaks is neck-to-neck also.

AI that much greater than Penny, huh? :rolleyes: :facepalm

Carmelo over King? If you're thinking peak, Bernard's clearly above.
And King "only" got injured late into the 1984-85 season, being in his peak since 1984.


AI upset Penny's Magic the first time he's in playoff and set playoff record of 9 steal a game.

[Moonbeam]

Durant the past couple seasons is without question a better scorer than Dantley ever was. As an overall player it's not too close.

How exactly were Durant's last 2 seasons better than Dantley's 1983 or 1984?

By Score+:

1983 Dantley 6.696
2013 Durant 6.511
1984 Dantley 6.207
2014 Durant 6.174

By PosScore+:

2013 Durant 6.733
1983 Dantley 6.600
2014 Durant 6.312
1984 Dantley 6.076

By TeamScore+:

1983 Dantley 6.715
1984 Dantley 5.291
2014 Durant 4.506
2013 Durant 3.859

[Moonbeam]

When talking Dantley (or any other Western wings of the 80's), the defenses he/they faced during his prime in Utah has to be taken into consideration.

Arenas faced much more difficult defense than Dantley did.

The Score+ metrics take into account the league environment. I'd love to further weight it on a game-by-game basis, but I don't have an easy way to get all game logs, and they are incomplete before 1985 in any case. I don't think there would be drastic differences.

[3ball]

When talking Dantley (or any other Western wings of the 80's), the defenses he/they faced during his prime in Utah has to be taken into consideration.

Arenas faced much more difficult defense than Dantley did.


current era players like Arenas get the benefit of spacing - however, basketball without spacing makes it harder to do everything on offense... we know what Dantley did with no spacing, but we don't know what Arenas would do in that environment.

If Arenas were put back in the 80's, he'd also have to deal with vastly superior paint defense - today's defenders must be within armslength of their man to stay in the paint, which equates to a strict brand of man-to-man defense in the paint.... contrastingly, previous era defenders could stay in the paint even when their man is FAR from armslength reach, which equates to a zone defense in the paint.

in addition to no spacing and superior paint defense (that equates to a zone in the paint), today's players would have to deal with actual physicality... indeed, the consensus among commissioners, coaches, players and fans alike, is that today's era is much softer.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Then why did Dantley average more assists and fewer FGAs than Wilkins per 100 possessions if he was such a black hole? Why was Nique also criticized for his defense?
More touches, and holding the ball longer. Averaging more assists =/= better playmaker, btw.

Typical play for him was an entry pass to the midrange area. He would either catch and piviot in triple-threat while going up for a midrange jumper - or hold the ball enough to waste a possession (hence, "black hole").

I remember reading an article along w/ a 40+ game sample where the Pistons had like a 4 or 5 point differential in the games Dantley played, and another 40+ games where the Pistons had 7+ differential in games he sat, which says their defense strengthened and their offense became more efficient (108 ORtg --> 113.8 to be exact, similar to the best Laker teams).

Dantley was an incredible scorer. No question, but also made contenders worse (see: Kareem's Lakers, Stockton and Malone's Jazz, and finally Isiah's Pistons; Isiah wanted him out of there hence their on-going feud). Dude played with arguably the GOAT player, Kareem, totally underachived, was traded to the Jazz when Magic was drafted, and the Lakers end up winning a title that following season. Perspective.

[Moonbeam]

He was a very good player, at least top 15 in the league, for a very long time. His peak was never particularly amazing, but he kept churning out 25+ ppg seasons for about a decade. People opinions on him seem to swing widely between extremes. One person just said comparing him to Dantley was ludicrous. Fact is that while his career might not have been as good, Nique was never the dominant scorer that Dantley was. Then there is the other end where people go about saying he would've just been James Worthy if he was on good teams, which is silly for a multitude of reasons.

I think all 3 of those guys are in roughly the same ballpark overall. I've currently got Dantley at 45, Wilkins at 55, and Worthy at 67 on my all-time list. Wilkins' ability to rebound from his Achilles injury was remarkable, and he was a great player. I just don't understand why he is almost universally regarded as at least a tier above guys like Dantley, English, Worthy, King, etc. I think they are all pretty comparable.

[3ball]

Typical play for him was an entry pass to the midrange area. He would either catch and piviot in triple-threat while going up for a midrange jumper - or hold the ball enough to waste a possession (hence, "black hole").


Plays out of the triple-threat that start from a pre-dribble, stationary position (so they don't use an existing, live dribble) are less time-consuming and require less sacrifice from teammates than plays that use a live dribble (like a point guard).

So as time-consuming as you think Dantley's triple-threat moves are, they still don't take as long as plays where Durant is the primary ballhandler dribbling around screens or whatever..

Durant's dribble forays require sacrifice from teammates (setting screens, positioning themselves to get optimal spacing for the drive-and-kick, etc.), whereas catch-and-go's don't (and that's what triple-threat plays are: extended catch-and-go's).
.

[Moonbeam]

More touches, and holding the ball longer. Averaging more assists =/= better playmaker, btw.

Typical play for him was an entry pass to the midrange area. He would either catch and piviot in triple-threat while going up for a midrange jumper - or hold the ball enough to waste a possession (hence, "black hole").

I remember reading an article along w/ a 40+ game sample where the Pistons had like a 4 or 5 point differential in the games Dantley played, and another 40+ games where the Pistons had 7+ differential in games he sat, which says their defense strengthened and their offense became more efficient (108 ORtg --> 113.8 to be exact, similar to the best Laker teams).

Dantley was an incredible scorer. No question, but also made contenders worse (see: Kareem's Lakers, Stockton and Malone's Jazz, and finally Isiah's Pistons; Isiah wanted him out of there hence their on-going feud). Dude played with arguably the GOAT player, Kareem, totally underachived, was traded to the Jazz when Magic was drafted, and the Lakers end up winning a title that following season. Perspective.

I think Dantley wasn't a good fit in L.A., and I don't think he appreciably made them better. Dantley definitely made Utah better, though, and at least for 1987 and 1988, Dantley helped Detroit, too. What gets cited is that Detroit played like a 5 SRS team with Dantley in 1988 but a 7+ SRS in the 13 games he missed (his minutes were mostly taken by Rodman and Salley). However, in the playoffs, Detroit played like an 8+ SRS team across 23 games. Dantley had the biggest bump in minutes, and Rodman had the biggest drop. In 1989 wen he was traded, he was nearly 34 and exiting his prime, but he absolutely meant a lot to those Piston teams.

Also, for all of Dantley's purported ball-stopping, Utah still played at a top 3 pace in the league under Layden. Sure, he was clinical on offense, but if there is anybody in the history of the league you might be happy taking his time with isolation moves, Dantley's on the shortlist.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Plays out of the triple-threat don't use an existing, live dribble (they start from a pre-dribble, stationary position) are less time-consuming and require less sacrifice from teammates than plays that use a live dribble (like a point guard).

So as time-consuming as you think Dantley's triple-threat moves are, they still don't take as long as plays where Durant is the primary ballhandler dribbling around screens or whatever..

Durant's dribble forays require sacrifice from teammates (setting screens, positioning themselves to get optimal spacing for the drive-and-kick, etc.).

I never compared him to Durant. Please read again.

[3ball]

I never compared him to Durant. Please read again.
you said dantley took a long time out of the triple-threat, and so i'm pointing out that plays out of the triple-threat are still less time-consuming and require less teammate-sacrifice than plays from a primary ballhandler/PG-style plays.

[Hey Yo]

current era players like Arenas get the benefit of spacing - however, basketball without spacing makes it harder to do everything on offense... we know what Dantley did with no spacing, but we don't know what Arenas would do in that environment.

If Arenas were put back in the 80's, he'd also have to deal with vastly superior paint defense - today's defenders must be within armslength of their man to stay in the paint, which equates to a strict brand of man-to-man defense in the paint.... contrastingly, previous era defenders could stay in the paint even when their man is FAR from armslength reach, which equates to a zone defense in the paint.

in addition to no spacing and superior paint defense (that equates to a zone in the paint), today's players would have to deal with actual physicality... indeed, the consensus among commissioners, coaches, players and fans alike, is that today's era is much softer.
Arenas could score from anywhere on the floor and didn't need to rely on getting into the paint. Plus w/o knowing for sure, my guess would be Gilbert faced much more double teaming than Dantley ever did, because today's league cares about D more than the 80's West did.

It's no knock on Dantley's game it's just that he faced less adversity when it came to scoring than Arenas did.

[3ball]

It's no knock on Dantley's game it's just that he faced less adversity when it came to scoring than Arenas did.


this statement is impossible - Arenas played WITH spacing, and Dantley played without it.

Arenas also played without physicality... it's night and day

[Moonbeam]

Arenas could score from anywhere on the floor and didn't need to rely on getting into the paint. Plus w/o knowing for sure, my guess would be Gilbert faced much more double teaming than Dantley ever did, because today's league cares about D more than the 80's West did.

It's no knock on Dantley's game it's just that he faced less adversity when it came to scoring than Arenas did.

Dantley faced a lot of double teams, and during his best years, he had incredibly poor help on offense (think Wade 08 level). Bernard King was similar in that sense with some of his teams.

http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=41217721#p41217721

[3ball]

it shouldn't be surprising that previous eras had so much more depth of great wing players:

27% of all shot attempts today are 3-pointers compared to 3% in 1987, so the previous era simply REQUIRED more skilled/creative shot-making and less camping behind the 3-point line.

[KobesFinger]

it shouldn't be surprising that previous eras had so much more depth of great wing players:

27% of all shot attempts today are 3-pointers compared to 3% in 1987, so the previous era simply REQUIRED more skilled/creative shot-making and less camping behind the 3-point line.

So 80s player were iso chuckers and todays players are great off-ball passers?

[magnax1]

I think all 3 of those guys are in roughly the same ballpark overall. I've currently got Dantley at 45, Wilkins at 55, and Worthy at 67 on my all-time list. Wilkins' ability to rebound from his Achilles injury was remarkable, and he was a great player. I just don't understand why he is almost universally regarded as at least a tier above guys like Dantley, English, Worthy, King, etc. I think they are all pretty comparable.
I think Dantley English and Wilkins are usually in the same tier to most people with Wilkins on top. I don't know that King deserves a spot in the conversation when he had basically one and half noteworthy seasons.

[Hey Yo]

this statement is impossible - Arenas played WITH spacing, and Dantley played without it.

Arenas also played without physicality... it's night and day
If it was more difficult to score back then with NO spacing and the physicality, then why was it the norm to see 134-126 or 140-133 final scores? And that was with the 3pt shot rarely being used. Shouldn't it be just the opposite than it is now if scoring is easier in today's game?

Sure the pace might have been a little faster but that was due to no defense being played.

[magnax1]

If it was more difficult to score back then with NO spacing and the physicality, then why was it the norm to see 134-126 or 140-133 final scores? And that was with the 3pt shot rarely being used. Shouldn't it be just the opposite than it is now if scoring is easier in today's game?

Sure the pace might have been a little faster but that was due to no defense being played.
The league in 1986 was 1.3% more offensively efficient than 2006.

[Moonbeam]

I think Dantley English and Wilkins are usually in the same tier to most people with Wilkins on top. I don't know that King deserves a spot in the conversation when he had basically one and half noteworthy seasons.

I've got King below those guys, but I think some of his other years were noteworthy. He arguably had the best peak of all of them, so I can see people who heavily favor peak choosing King as the best.

[Hey Yo]

The league in 1986 was 1.3% more offensively efficient than 2006.
but....but.....how is that possible when 3ball's main argument is that there was no spacing and the paint was clogged which means it was MUCH harder to score back in the 80's? 140-133 Final scores shouldn't have been the norm back then, but should be the norm today with his logic.

[magnax1]

I've got King below those guys, but I think some of his other years were noteworthy. He arguably had the best peak of all of them, so I can see people who heavily favor peak choosing King as the best.
His peak was probably a 27 ppg season on a 47 win team while adding basically nothing else and not scoring as efficiently as Dantley and similar to Wilkins. Or 32 considerably less efficiently for 55 games on a 24 win team. No clue how either of those translate to the best peak.

[magnax1]

but....but.....how is that possible when 3ball's main argument is that there was no spacing and the paint was clogged which means it was MUCH harder to score back in the 80's? 140-133 Final scores shouldn't have been the norm back then, but should be the norm today with his logic.
Defenses are more complex now, but way softer because of rule changes. Basically it evened out, and the only difference is teams ran more back in the early 80s. You can see that teams were scoring way less from 98-04 when the rules weren't changed but defenses were becoming better though.

[Moonbeam]

His peak was probably a 27 ppg season on a 47 win team while adding basically nothing else and not scoring as efficiently as Dantley and similar to Wilkins. Or 32 considerably less efficiently for 55 games on a 24 win team. No clue how either of those translate to the best peak.

King's 1984 playoffs were amazing. That significantly adds to that season, I think. That said, I agree that his peak isn't cut-and-dry the best of those guys, but he's good a decent argument, I think.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I think Dantley wasn't a good fit in L.A., and I don't think he appreciably made them better. Dantley definitely made Utah better, though, and at least for 1987 and 1988, Dantley helped Detroit, too. What gets cited is that Detroit played like a 5 SRS team with Dantley in 1988 but a 7+ SRS in the 13 games he missed (his minutes were mostly taken by Rodman and Salley). However, in the playoffs, Detroit played like an 8+ SRS team across 23 games. Dantley had the biggest bump in minutes, and Rodman had the biggest drop. In 1989 wen he was traded, he was nearly 34 and exiting his prime, but he absolutely meant a lot to those Piston teams.

Also, for all of Dantley's purported ball-stopping, Utah still played at a top 3 pace in the league under Layden. Sure, he was clinical on offense, but if there is anybody in the history of the league you might be happy taking his time with isolation moves, Dantley's on the shortlist.

A horrible fit for LA, but I'll agree somewhat regarding his Utah stint. That's where AD played his best basketball, even if it did become too individual-based at one point or another.

Keep in mind, though, that before Detroit acquired Mark Aguirre (the better fit ONLY because of his willingness to play within team parameters while marginalizing his role to a degree), coaching and upper-management often tried getting Dantley to buy in, arguing that his scoring-game took up way too much space AND time, turning the Piston offense stale. A Detroit journalist (http://mitchalbom.com/d/journalism/1139/pistons-halt-uneasy-marriageadrian-dantley-sent-packing-younger-man) that covered the team, said as much, intimating Dantley began to age, but that his game would NEVER evolve.

His efficiency was insane though. His scoring longevity was too. No arguments there. I just think his ex-teams finding immediate success right after he was traded remains a huge indictment on his overall legacy (more or less, he's in the same tier w/ English and D-Wilkins for me, as well).

[3ball]

but....but.....how is that possible when 3ball's main argument is that there was no spacing and the paint was clogged which means it was MUCH harder to score back in the 80's? 140-133 Final scores shouldn't have been the norm back then, but should be the norm today with his logic.


it takes extra time to set up the spacing and run offense to get good three-point looks.. 3-pointers simply need to be more open than two-pointers, so more offense needs to be run to get these better looks, which slows the game down.

two-pointer basketball plays at a faster pace because offenses weren't designed to get 22 three-point looks per game like they are today... historically, pace has declined with the increase in 3-point shooting.

[magnax1]

Dantley being a bad fit wasn't the problem as much as Kareem playing a very weak season, being a somewhat unhelpful team mate, and them being incapable of rebounding. All of this would've been fixed whether Dantley was there in 80 or not (well Kareem would still be a dick, but my point still stands)

[SHAQisGOAT]

Dantley didn't have the same impact as Dominique, simply put. He can't be put above, imho.

Adrian was a very talented player and a scoring machine BUT:

-despite being a very hard worker he was often a bad teammate on and off the court, I've seen him beefing with teammates on the actual court due to some play not going his way, many teammates also said he was never a positive influence on the locker room (Dumars was one of the few exceptions), he never really understood the concept of team play;
-he had some passing skills but never the passing IQ let's say, he turned into a blackhole many times, held the ball and stagnated the offense plenty too, overdid it lots of times resulting in TO's;
-most times he was really caring about rebounding were only to get buckets off of putbacks;
-he didn't give a SINGLE **** about playing defense for most of his career, it was painful to watch, that only changed with the Pistons when he started to put in the effort on the defensive end, actually playing nice m2m D, especially in the post using his bulk and strength;
...

If you care more about stats you go for Dantley, if you care more about winning you'd go for Wilkins.

Nique was once 2nd in MVP voting making all-nba 1st, many of his peers (including MVP Bird) were praising the hell out of him.
He led the Hawks to various 50+W seasons in the much tougher (and GOAT-Level) Eastern Conference, doing his thing in the post-season too, once almost willing them to the Conference Finals.

^AD can't really mess with that. And please don't tell me that he never had any help or type of help that Nique did. Like I've said he was also playing in a weaker conference when he was top-dog and at his best.

->Oh, and peak King was better than both... but that didn't even last 2 full seasons.

Shit, in the long run I don't even know if I would take AD over Alex English...

With that said, can't deny that Dantley's simply one of the very best all-time scorers, even one of the best ever at scoring in the post, bigmen or not.

Not denying his talents here, not downgrading his play, dude was a very good player.
He had major scoring skills and scoring IQ, moved extremely well without the ball, very methodic working for the best way to score, great at using angles, terrific at using his bulk body, drawing fouls, beautiful to watch in the post, had a great soft-touch around the rim, great footwork, solid jumper too... but Dominique was just a more impactful player.




AI upset Penny's Magic the first time he's in playoff and set playoff record of 9 steal a game.

Thanks for the info :rolleyes:

That was post-injury Penny though... but I'm not going into that...

Never said he wasn't better than Penny, I actually think he was but not by that margin the poster I've responded to was saying.

[Hey Yo]

it takes extra time to set up the spacing and run offense to get good three-point looks.. 3-pointers simply need to be more open than two-pointers, so more offense needs to be run to get these better looks, which slows the game down.

two-pointer basketball plays at a faster pace because offenses weren't designed to get 22 three-point looks per game like they are today... historically, pace has declined with the increase in 3-point shooting.
So what you're saying is that it was easier to score in the 80's?

[Moonbeam]

Keep in mind, though, that before Detroit acquired Mark Aguirre (the better fit ONLY because of his willingness to play within team parameters while marginalizing his role to a degree), coaching and upper-management often tried getting Dantley to buy in, arguing that his scoring-game took up way too much space AND time, turning the Piston offense stale. A Detroit journalist (http://mitchalbom.com/d/journalism/1139/pistons-halt-uneasy-marriageadrian-dantley-sent-packing-younger-man) that covered the team, said as much, intimating Dantley began to age, but that his game would NEVER evolve.

I used to cut out Albom's columns from the Detroit Free Press as a kid - love the guy! I think what you're citing is only part of the story. In that very article you see support for Dantley from Salley and Dumars. There were countless accounts of him teaching the younger Pistons what it meant to be a professional.

I think it's misguided to suggest that Dantley didn't adjust his game to fit Detroit. I'm going to pinch from a post I made on RealGM:

So did Dantley actually hurt Detroit? I think that's a stretch - he had to compromise a lot coming to Detroit from Utah.

Source: http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1988-05-15/sports/8803170231_1_vinnie-johnson-adrian-dantley-guy/2" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



"I don't think the players appreciated as much as they should have how much he's adjusted for us," McCloskey said.

"I know I can do more, but I didn't want to let my ego get involved,"

Dantley said. "I've just kept my mouth shut and done my job."

He has continued to do his job in the playoffs, averaging 20 points, shooting 60 percent from the field and playing rugged, late-game defense that has helped the Pistons almost invariably win when they lead entering the last quarter.

"No one should ever underestimate this man's desire for a (championship) ring," Versace said. "You want a horse to ride in this league, and he`s ours."


Dantley was particularly valuable to those Piston teams in the playoffs, when possessions slowed and defenses could focus more on stopping Detroit's offense. Dantley, as usual, was very potent despite the best efforts of the defense.

I'm working on a playoff Score+ metric (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/14Cmhy7jDzT6qBgahLMRBNtE_mUibNUAmQQDhblwwFAk/edit?usp=sharing) which compares volume and efficiency to opponents. So just how much did Dantley's efficiency and volume mean to Detroit in the postseason? Well, in 1987, he added more than twice as many additional points above expectations than any other Piston player:



Player Score+ TotScore+
Adrian Dantley 4.457 44.415
Joe Dumars 2.266 21.348
Rick Mahorn 1.791 17.217
Dennis Rodman 1.377 6.719
John Salley 0.922 5.711
Bill Laimbeer 0.407 4.403
Sidney Green 4.556 3.859
Tony Campbell 7.028 1.868
Isiah Thomas 0.148 1.660
Chuck Nevitt -10.431 -2.124
Kurt Nimphius -5.223 -3.210
Vinnie Johnson -1.242 -9.606


In 1988, Dantley's offense was even more important to keep Detroit afloat:



Player Score+ TotScore+
Adrian Dantley 3.593 54.472
John Salley 1.612 18.938
James Edwards 0.599 3.476
Chuck Nevitt -1.306 -0.099
Walker Russell -0.905 -0.172
Ralph Lewis -7.200 -2.318
Dennis Rodman -0.518 -4.629
Joe Dumars -0.435 -6.588
Isiah Thomas -0.549 -9.433
Bill Laimbeer -0.822 -12.080
Rick Mahorn -3.758 -28.950
Vinnie Johnson -4.414 -39.732


When Dantley was knocked out in 1987 due to a concussion in Game 7 of the ECF, Laimbeer added this (http://articles.latimes.com/1987-05-31/sports/sp-9422_1_boston-celtics/3):



Laimbeer, on the loss of Adrian Dantley: "When he went off, they didn't have to double team us anymore. We couldn't get the open jump shots like we normally would."


But Dantley's contributions were not just on offense - he put in significant effort on defense in both 1987 and 1988.

Source: http://archives.chicagotribune.com/1988/06/03/page/69/article/bad-backs-could-hurt-the-celtics" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



Larry Bird, meanwhile, who has shot just 37 percent in five games, continues to say his rhythm is off, but he did offer this assessment: "The officiating has been different in the playoffs and I don't think it's fair to anybody. You prepare during an 82-game season and then it's completely different. It's a tough adjustment."

But also giving Bird trouble, and for the second consecutive year and equally unnoticed by most, is noted scorer Adrian Dantley.

"I've never seen him player harder on defense in my life," said Laimbeer. "He's working so hard. He just wants it so bad."


Source: http://mitchalbom.com/d/journalism/535/latest-news-dantley-old-message-updated" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



Whatever the change, he was in for most of the crucial minutes Sunday, spinning, driving, bumping, and playing a defense that went unnoticed by many. Except Larry Bird, the guy he was covering. "Dantley did as good a job on Bird as Michael Cooper or Paul Pressey does," Celtics coach K.C. Jones said. "He was very tough."

And at times, even obstinate. Once in the first half when the Celtics brought in Darren Daye, Pistons coach Chuck Daly screamed to Dantley: "YOU GOT DAYE! LET SALLEY TAKE BIRD!"

And Dantley turned, scowl intact, and mouthed back, "I got Bird." And five seconds later, Daly signaled, never mind, you got Bird.


Source: http://articles.latimes.com/1988-06-08/sports/sp-3893_1_detroit-pistons" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



Dantley, a two-time NBA scoring champion, has always been known for his offense, but the Pistons say that he has concentrated on defense this season.

And Dantley's work ethic on defense was a key as the Pistons held the Lakers to 39.8% shooting from the floor.

"I've always played defense, but when people talk about me, they talk about my offense," Dantley said. "The last time I played this hard on defense was in the 1976 Olympics. Defense is how we've been winning all our games this year. We don't even think about offense."

Opponent Michael Cooper during the 1988 Finals: http://articles.philly.com/1988-06-12/sports/26266832_1_bad-rap-joe-dumars-defense" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



"His defense shocked me," said Cooper, who was an L.A. teammate of Dantley's for the 1978-79 season.

"He was never one to get his sneakers dirty on defense. Before, A.D. was about A.D. He was out to score his points. Now he's a team player. He's willing to sacrifice. He sees that the more you put into a team, the more you get out of it."


Dantley by and large bought into Detroit's team ethos. He didn't mesh well with Isiah, and he had that moment where he refused to sub out in Boston, and that led to him being shipped out. But he got along great with most of his teammates (Joe Dumars called him his favorite teammate ever and John Salley was very upset at his trade as well) and managed to change the narrative about him as a selfish loner.

I think this article (http://mitchalbom.com/d/journalism/835/one-win-away-ad-teaches-pistons-play-fire-104-94-victory) from after Game 5 of the 1988 Finals sums it up quite well.

Edit: And this one (http://mitchalbom.com/d/journalism/351/gimme-ring-after-12-years-dantley-hungry-championship), too.

[bizil]

Dantley didn't have the same impact as Dominique, simply put. He can't be put above, imho.

Adrian was a very talented player and a scoring machine BUT:

-despite being a very hard worker he was often a bad teammate on and off the court, I've seen him beefing with teammates on the actual court due to some play not going his way, many teammates also said he was never a positive influence on the locker room (Dumars was one of the few exceptions), he never really understood the concept of team play;
-he had some passing skills but never the passing IQ let's say, he turned into a blackhole many times, held the ball and stagnated the offense plenty too, overdid it lots of times resulting in TO's;
-most times he was really caring about rebounding were only to get buckets off of putbacks;
-he didn't give a SINGLE **** about playing defense for most of his career, it was painful to watch, that only changed with the Pistons when he started to put in the effort on the defensive end, actually playing nice m2m D, especially in the post using his bulk and strength;
...

If you care more about stats you go for Dantley, if you care more about winning you'd go for Wilkins.

Nique was once 2nd in MVP voting making all-nba 1st, many of his peers (including MVP Bird) were praising the hell out of him.
He led the Hawks to various 50+W seasons in the much tougher (and GOAT-Level) Eastern Conference, doing his thing in the post-season too, once almost willing them to the Conference Finals.

^AD can't really mess with that. And please don't tell me that he never had any help or type of help that Nique did. Like I've said he was also playing in a weaker conference when he was top-dog and at his best.

->Oh, and peak King was better than both... but that didn't even last 2 full seasons.

Shit, in the long run I don't even know if I would take AD over Alex English...

With that said, can't deny that Dantley's simply one of the very best all-time scorers, even one of the best ever at scoring in the post, bigmen or not.

Not denying his talents here, not downgrading his play, dude was a very good player.
He had major scoring skills and scoring IQ, moved extremely well without the ball, very methodic working for the best way to score, great at using angles, terrific at using his bulk body, drawing fouls, beautiful to watch in the post, had a great soft-touch around the rim, great footwork, solid jumper too... but Dominique was just a more impactful player.





Thanks for the info :rolleyes:

That was post-injury Penny though... but I'm not going into that...

Never said he wasn't better than Penny, I actually think he was but not by that margin the poster I've responded to was saying.


Well said sir! In terms of Nique vs. Dantley, give me Nique too. The thing with Nique that separated him from the other great SF's of the 80's (since Doc slowed down) was how he could go over the top of the defense. To this day, I think he's the best SF of all time in terms of going over the top of a defense.

Plus Nique was a great postup guy, had a sick array of floaters, used the glass as good as any SF ever, and had a very good midrange game. Plus Nique aged as well as any SF ever too! Nique was more unpredictable than Dantley scoring the rock as well! With Nique u had to prepare for the unexpected!

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Dantley didn't have the same impact as Dominique, simply put. He can't be put above, imho.

Adrian was a very talented player and a scoring machine BUT:

-despite being a very hard worker he was often a bad teammate on and off the court, I've seen him beefing with teammates on the actual court due to some play not going his way, many teammates also said he was never a positive influence on the locker room (Dumars was one of the few exceptions), he never really understood the concept of team play;
-he had some passing skills but never the passing IQ let's say, he turned into a blackhole many times, held the ball and stagnated the offense plenty too, overdid it lots of times resulting in TO's;
-most times he was really caring about rebounding were only to get buckets off of putbacks;
-he didn't give a SINGLE **** about playing defense for most of his career, it was painful to watch, that only changed with the Pistons when he started to put in the effort on the defensive end, actually playing nice m2m D, especially in the post using his bulk and strength;
...

If you care more about stats you go for Dantley, if you care more about winning you'd go for Wilkins.

Nique was once 2nd in MVP voting making all-nba 1st, many of his peers (including MVP Bird) were praising the hell out of him.
He led the Hawks to various 50+W seasons in the much tougher (and GOAT-Level) Eastern Conference, doing his thing in the post-season too, once almost willing them to the Conference Finals.

^AD can't really mess with that. And please don't tell me that he never had any help or type of help that Nique did. Like I've said he was also playing in a weaker conference when he was top-dog and at his best.

->Oh, and peak King was better than both... but that didn't even last 2 full seasons.

Shit, in the long run I don't even know if I would take AD over Alex English...

With that said, can't deny that Dantley's simply one of the very best all-time scorers, even one of the best ever at scoring in the post, bigmen or not.

Not denying his talents here, not downgrading his play, dude was a very good player.
He had major scoring skills and scoring IQ, moved extremely well without the ball, very methodic working for the best way to score, great at using angles, terrific at using his bulk body, drawing fouls, beautiful to watch in the post, had a great soft-touch around the rim, great footwork, solid jumper too... but Dominique was just a more impactful player.


ShaqisGoat, pound for post, the most informed golden-era guy on this forum. Well said.

I recall seeing a video on Youtube of some miscellaneous game in the 80s between Utah and LA... Anyway the Lakers were in transition and Dantley just loafs back on defense (after getting his shot rejected), watching from afar as Byron Scott lays it in with no resistance. At the end of the play, Utah calls timeout, and Dantley for whatever reason, literally shoves Stockton on their way to the bench. :oldlol: Horrible effort, no accountability, no defense, and being a lousy teammate in the process. People wonder why this guy never won a ring?

[SHAQisGOAT]

I used to cut out Albom's columns from the Detroit Free Press as a kid - love the guy! I think what you're citing is only part of the story. In that very article you see support for Dantley from Salley and Dumars. There were countless accounts of him teaching the younger Pistons what it meant to be a professional.

I think it's misguided to suggest that Dantley didn't adjust his game to fit Detroit. I'm going to pinch from a post I made on RealGM:

So did Dantley actually hurt Detroit? I think that's a stretch - he had to compromise a lot coming to Detroit from Utah.

Source: http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1988-05-15/sports/8803170231_1_vinnie-johnson-adrian-dantley-guy/2" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



Dantley was particularly valuable to those Piston teams in the playoffs, when possessions slowed and defenses could focus more on stopping Detroit's offense. Dantley, as usual, was very potent despite the best efforts of the defense.

I'm working on a playoff Score+ metric (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/14Cmhy7jDzT6qBgahLMRBNtE_mUibNUAmQQDhblwwFAk/edit?usp=sharing) which compares volume and efficiency to opponents. So just how much did Dantley's efficiency and volume mean to Detroit in the postseason? Well, in 1987, he added more than twice as many additional points above expectations than any other Piston player:



Player Score+ TotScore+
Adrian Dantley 4.457 44.415
Joe Dumars 2.266 21.348
Rick Mahorn 1.791 17.217
Dennis Rodman 1.377 6.719
John Salley 0.922 5.711
Bill Laimbeer 0.407 4.403
Sidney Green 4.556 3.859
Tony Campbell 7.028 1.868
Isiah Thomas 0.148 1.660
Chuck Nevitt -10.431 -2.124
Kurt Nimphius -5.223 -3.210
Vinnie Johnson -1.242 -9.606


In 1988, Dantley's offense was even more important to keep Detroit afloat:



Player Score+ TotScore+
Adrian Dantley 3.593 54.472
John Salley 1.612 18.938
James Edwards 0.599 3.476
Chuck Nevitt -1.306 -0.099
Walker Russell -0.905 -0.172
Ralph Lewis -7.200 -2.318
Dennis Rodman -0.518 -4.629
Joe Dumars -0.435 -6.588
Isiah Thomas -0.549 -9.433
Bill Laimbeer -0.822 -12.080
Rick Mahorn -3.758 -28.950
Vinnie Johnson -4.414 -39.732


When Dantley was knocked out in 1987 due to a concussion in Game 7 of the ECF, Laimbeer added this (http://articles.latimes.com/1987-05-31/sports/sp-9422_1_boston-celtics/3):



But Dantley's contributions were not just on offense - he put in significant effort on defense in both 1987 and 1988.

Source: http://archives.chicagotribune.com/1988/06/03/page/69/article/bad-backs-could-hurt-the-celtics" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



Source: http://mitchalbom.com/d/journalism/535/latest-news-dantley-old-message-updated" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



Source: http://articles.latimes.com/1988-06-08/sports/sp-3893_1_detroit-pistons" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



Opponent Michael Cooper during the 1988 Finals: http://articles.philly.com/1988-06-12/sports/26266832_1_bad-rap-joe-dumars-defense" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



Dantley by and large bought into Detroit's team ethos. He didn't mesh well with Isiah, and he had that moment where he refused to sub out in Boston, and that led to him being shipped out. But he got along great with most of his teammates (Joe Dumars called him his favorite teammate ever and John Salley was very upset at his trade as well) and managed to change the narrative about him as a selfish loner.

I think this article (http://mitchalbom.com/d/journalism/835/one-win-away-ad-teaches-pistons-play-fire-104-94-victory) from after Game 5 of the 1988 Finals sums it up quite well.

Edit: And this one (http://mitchalbom.com/d/journalism/351/gimme-ring-after-12-years-dantley-hungry-championship), too.


Good stuff, and I agree with you.

Like I've said, he really started to put in the effort on D when he got to Detroit, actually playing some nice m2m D.
And yea, he "sacrificed" and changed his game plenty in order to win, there's no denying that, gotta give him credit there.

Plus, Isiah did him dirty too...

Anyways, with that said, I was mostly referring to prime/peak Dantley (on my previous post), when he was the top-dog on "his own" team... Comparing him to Wilkins in the same "situation", and - not gonna repeat everything again ofc - Nique was just a more impactful player.

[SHAQisGOAT]

ShaqisGoat, pound for post, the most informed golden-era guy on this forum. Well said.

I recall seeing a video on Youtube of some miscellaneous game in the 80s between Utah and LA... Anyway the Lakers were in transition and Dantley just loafs back on defense (after getting his shot rejected), watching from afar as Byron Scott lays it in with no resistance. At the end of the play, Utah calls timeout, and Dantley for whatever reason, literally shoves Stockton on their way to the bench. :oldlol: Horrible effort, no accountability, no defense, and being a lousy teammate in the process. People wonder why this guy never won a ring?

:cheers:

Yea, I've seen plenty of stuff like that from AD as well, in his time with the Jazz. Can't stand up for shit like that even him being a great baller/scorer.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I used to cut out Albom's columns from the Detroit Free Press as a kid - love the guy! I think what you're citing is only part of the story. In that very article you see support for Dantley from Salley and Dumars. There were countless accounts of him teaching the younger Pistons what it meant to be a professional.

I think it's misguided to suggest that Dantley didn't adjust his game to fit Detroit. I'm going to pinch from a post I made on RealGM:

So did Dantley actually hurt Detroit? I think that's a stretch - he had to compromise a lot coming to Detroit from Utah.

Source: http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1988-05-15/sports/8803170231_1_vinnie-johnson-adrian-dantley-guy/2" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



Dantley was particularly valuable to those Piston teams in the playoffs, when possessions slowed and defenses could focus more on stopping Detroit's offense. Dantley, as usual, was very potent despite the best efforts of the defense.

I'm working on a playoff Score+ metric (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/14Cmhy7jDzT6qBgahLMRBNtE_mUibNUAmQQDhblwwFAk/edit?usp=sharing) which compares volume and efficiency to opponents. So just how much did Dantley's efficiency and volume mean to Detroit in the postseason? Well, in 1987, he added more than twice as many additional points above expectations than any other Piston player:



Player Score+ TotScore+
Adrian Dantley 4.457 44.415
Joe Dumars 2.266 21.348
Rick Mahorn 1.791 17.217
Dennis Rodman 1.377 6.719
John Salley 0.922 5.711
Bill Laimbeer 0.407 4.403
Sidney Green 4.556 3.859
Tony Campbell 7.028 1.868
Isiah Thomas 0.148 1.660
Chuck Nevitt -10.431 -2.124
Kurt Nimphius -5.223 -3.210
Vinnie Johnson -1.242 -9.606


In 1988, Dantley's offense was even more important to keep Detroit afloat:



Player Score+ TotScore+
Adrian Dantley 3.593 54.472
John Salley 1.612 18.938
James Edwards 0.599 3.476
Chuck Nevitt -1.306 -0.099
Walker Russell -0.905 -0.172
Ralph Lewis -7.200 -2.318
Dennis Rodman -0.518 -4.629
Joe Dumars -0.435 -6.588
Isiah Thomas -0.549 -9.433
Bill Laimbeer -0.822 -12.080
Rick Mahorn -3.758 -28.950
Vinnie Johnson -4.414 -39.732


When Dantley was knocked out in 1987 due to a concussion in Game 7 of the ECF, Laimbeer added this (http://articles.latimes.com/1987-05-31/sports/sp-9422_1_boston-celtics/3):



But Dantley's contributions were not just on offense - he put in significant effort on defense in both 1987 and 1988.

Source: http://archives.chicagotribune.com/1988/06/03/page/69/article/bad-backs-could-hurt-the-celtics" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



Source: http://mitchalbom.com/d/journalism/535/latest-news-dantley-old-message-updated" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



Source: http://articles.latimes.com/1988-06-08/sports/sp-3893_1_detroit-pistons" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



Opponent Michael Cooper during the 1988 Finals: http://articles.philly.com/1988-06-12/sports/26266832_1_bad-rap-joe-dumars-defense" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



Dantley by and large bought into Detroit's team ethos. He didn't mesh well with Isiah, and he had that moment where he refused to sub out in Boston, and that led to him being shipped out. But he got along great with most of his teammates (Joe Dumars called him his favorite teammate ever and John Salley was very upset at his trade as well) and managed to change the narrative about him as a selfish loner.

I think this article (http://mitchalbom.com/d/journalism/835/one-win-away-ad-teaches-pistons-play-fire-104-94-victory) from after Game 5 of the 1988 Finals sums it up quite well.

Edit: And this one (http://mitchalbom.com/d/journalism/351/gimme-ring-after-12-years-dantley-hungry-championship), too.

Informed post, and something I wouldn't necessarily disagree with. Detroit's teammates loved AD like they did, Mahorn. For me, people just need to put his numbers into context (if they value team success), and recognize he wasn't the easiest guy to work with (despite being one of the greatest perimeter scorers).

[SHAQisGOAT]

Well said sir! In terms of Nique vs. Dantley, give me Nique too. The thing with Nique that separated him from the other great SF's of the 80's (since Doc slowed down) was how he could go over the top of the defense. To this day, I think he's the best SF of all time in terms of going over the top of a defense.

Plus Nique was a great postup guy, had a sick array of floaters, used the glass as good as any SF ever, and had a very good midrange game. Plus Nique aged as well as any SF ever too! Nique was more unpredictable than Dantley scoring the rock as well! With Nique u had to prepare for the unexpected!

True, people can't just view Nique as an athletic freak, dude had plenty of skill (jumper, post-game, soft-touch, solid handles, offensive IQ) and great work ethic.

[Moonbeam]

Dantley didn't have the same impact as Dominique, simply put. He can't be put above, imho.

Adrian was a very talented player and a scoring machine BUT:

-despite being a very hard worker he was often a bad teammate on and off the court, I've seen him beefing with teammates on the actual court due to some play not going his way, many teammates also said he was never a positive influence on the locker room (Dumars was one of the few exceptions), he never really understood the concept of team play;
-he had some passing skills but never the passing IQ let's say, he turned into a blackhole many times, held the ball and stagnated the offense plenty too, overdid it lots of times resulting in TO's;
-most times he was really caring about rebounding were only to get buckets off of putbacks;
-he didn't give a SINGLE **** about playing defense for most of his career, it was painful to watch, that only changed with the Pistons when he started to put in the effort on the defensive end, actually playing nice m2m D, especially in the post using his bulk and strength;
...

If you care more about stats you go for Dantley, if you care more about winning you'd go for Wilkins.

Nique was once 2nd in MVP voting making all-nba 1st, many of his peers (including MVP Bird) were praising the hell out of him.
He led the Hawks to various 50+W seasons in the much tougher (and GOAT-Level) Eastern Conference, doing his thing in the post-season too, once almost willing them to the Conference Finals.

^AD can't really mess with that. And please don't tell me that he never had any help or type of help that Nique did. Like I've said he was also playing in a weaker conference when he was top-dog and at his best.

->Oh, and peak King was better than both... but that didn't even last 2 full seasons.

Shit, in the long run I don't even know if I would take AD over Alex English...

With that said, can't deny that Dantley's simply one of the very best all-time scorers, even one of the best ever at scoring in the post, bigmen or not.

Not denying his talents here, not downgrading his play, dude was a very good player.
He had major scoring skills and scoring IQ, moved extremely well without the ball, very methodic working for the best way to score, great at using angles, terrific at using his bulk body, drawing fouls, beautiful to watch in the post, had a great soft-touch around the rim, great footwork, solid jumper too... but Dominique was just a more impactful player.




Dantley had his flaws, for sure, and he was a quiet guy. I don't think you'll find any former teammates bagging him out, though, at least not from his Utah or Detroit days. Dumars and Salley think very highly of him, and there are lots of quotes saying that he taught those young Pistons how to be a professional. While Dantley's effort on defense could be questioned, that seemed to be the norm for 80s SFs, Wilkins included.

As far as playoff performance, Dantley is easily ahead of Nique, IMO. That's part of why I've got Dantley ahead of Nique. I'm not talking about team performance either - I'm talking about individual performance. Relative to the defenses they faced, Wilkins put up a playoff Score+ of -1.405
and an O+: +0.68 since 1985, and looking at his pre-1985 series, those numbers are likely generous. Dantley put up a playoff Score+ of 3.565 and an O+ of 9.76 since 1985. Those numbers are likely to be higher if we include pre-1985 series.

I think the narrative about Dantley has become negative because of the success of teams after he was traded and because he wasn't a gregarious guy, but it seems to often be framed to suggest he was a bad teammate (or even a locker room cancer), a good stats on a bad team guy, and a career loser. I don't think any of that is true.

[Moonbeam]

:cheers:

Yea, I've seen plenty of stuff like that from AD as well, in his time with the Jazz. Can't stand up for shit like that even him being a great baller/scorer.


Yeah, I haven't seen that stuff, but shoving teammates is something I can't stand up for, either. There are times in Utah when he was a good teammate too, though. He got suspended by Layden for sticking up for Karl Malone for missing free throws against Phoenix. Layden actually fined him $3 to be paid 10 cents per day (30 pieces of silver as Judas had done in the Bible). :oldlol:

[Moonbeam]

Informed post, and something I wouldn't necessarily disagree with. Detroit's teammates loved AD like they did, Mahorn. For me, people just need to put his numbers into context (if they value team success), and recognize he wasn't the easiest guy to work with (despite being one of the greatest perimeter scorers).

I'm not sure what you're implying here with the numbers being in context - do you mean the defenses he was facing? The impact for the team, etc? In any case, I think those numbers for the playoffs I posted show his value to Detroit on the offensive end. I think a lot of people's perceptions about Dantley would be different had Detroit won that coin-toss 1988 Finals.

[bizil]

Dantley had his flaws, for sure, and he was a quiet guy. I don't think you'll find any former teammates bagging him out, though, at least not from his Utah or Detroit days. Dumars and Salley think very highly of him, and there are lots of quotes saying that he taught those young Pistons how to be a professional. While Dantley's effort on defense could be questioned, that seemed to be the norm for 80s SFs, Wilkins included.

As far as playoff performance, Dantley is easily ahead of Nique, IMO. That's part of why I've got Dantley ahead of Nique. I'm not talking about team performance either - I'm talking about individual performance. Relative to the defenses they faced, Wilkins put up a playoff Score+ of -1.405
and an O+: +0.68 since 1985, and looking at his pre-1985 series, those numbers are likely generous. Dantley put up a playoff Score+ of 3.565 and an O+ of 9.76 since 1985. Those numbers are likely to be higher if we include pre-1985 series.

I think the narrative about Dantley has become negative because of the success of teams after he was traded and because he wasn't a gregarious guy, but it seems to often be framed to suggest he was a bad teammate (or even a locker room cancer), a good stats on a bad team guy, and a career loser. I don't think any of that is true.

AD was a beast no doubt about it. True alpha dog and all that! But if i'm a defender, I would have more nightmares having to guard Nique. With AD, he was unstoppable but u knew what he was going to do. With Nique, he was a lot more unpredictable. And though neither was noted for defense, I think Nique was the superior defender as well.

I also think in terms of what they achieved in terms of accolades across the board sort of shows the difference between the two. Nique made 7 All NBA teams to AD's two. Nique has nine all star games to AD's six.

The highest AD ever finished in MVP votes was 7th while Nique finished 2nd as his highest. And I also feel on those Detroit teams than Nique would have been scoring more points. The highest AD ever scored on the Pistons was 21.5 PPG. I just think guys like Bird, Nique, or King would put up more points on that Pistons team. The way they applied their scoring skillsets would be more adaptable.

[Moonbeam]

AD was a beast no doubt about it. True alpha dog and all that! But if i'm a defender, I would have more nightmares having to guard Nique. With AD, he was unstoppable but u knew what he was going to do. With Nique, he was a lot more unpredictable. And though neither was noted for defense, I think Nique was the superior defender as well.

I also think in terms of what they achieved in terms of accolades across the board sort of shows the difference between the two. Nique made 7 All NBA teams to AD's two. Nique has nine all star games to AD's six.

The highest AD ever finished in MVP votes was 7th while Nique finished 2nd as his highest. And I also feel on those Detroit teams than Nique would have been scoring more points. The highest AD ever scored on the Pistons was 21.5 PPG. I just think guys like Bird, Nique, or King would put up more points that Pistons team.

Nique was great, too, but I just don't agree with there being any extra value to him being less predictable than Dantley on offense. They did what they did at the end of the day, and Dantley was a better scorer. In terms of accolades, I think part of it comes from the fact that Nique was a flashy player playing in a market shared with TNT studios, while Dantley's best work came in Utah.

As far as defending goes, I think both are given a bad rap, and perhaps rightly so, but I think it's overstated. Both players saw other top SFs score worse against them than against their averages, overall.

I'll again pinch from a post I made on RealGM, this time with head-to-head comparisons of top 80s SFs (Bird, Erving, Aguirre, Dantley, English, Marques Johnson, King, Wilkins and Worthy), keeping games in seasons where both players averaged at least 27 MPG.

A full set of spreadsheets with yearly comparisons of each player against all of the others collectively, as well as the 36 individual player vs. player matchups here (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1p1o-2YgPK6DELG9Cshmoo65nqewz4nENA-lmwWqugm4/edit?usp=sharing).

Below I'll post the summaries for each player against all of the others collectively. TS values with asterisks imply that up to half of the games in that season have missing statistics.

The column "Vs. Exp" is a comparison of team margin vs. SRS expectations, taking into account homecourt advantage. Each of the columns labelled "Rel" indicate difference from season averages of the previous column.

Adrian Dantley:

As you might expect, Dantley has the largest scoring margin of the 9 players considered here, outgunning his opponents by over 3 PPG on nearly 8% better TS. Team success in Utah was predictably poor (particularly 1985 and 1986), though not relative to SRS expectations. In fact, his teams tended to outperform their SRS expectations against this set of opponents. Most surprising may be that his opponents' scoring average was more than a point less than their respective season averages overall, and while his time in Detroit did contribute to that, his opponents weren't going crazy on him in Utah, even prior to the Jazz becoming good on defense in 1983. He loses out on rebounds and assists, though I imagine this is somewhat distorted by the fact the data is mostly available after he assumed a reduced role in Detroit and Dallas.



Player Year W L Vs. Exp PPG Rel RPG Rel APG Rel TS Rel
Dantley 1977 2 1 +9.35 19.00 -1.31 NA NA NA NA NA NA
Top SFs 1977 1 2 -9.35 14.67 -6.92 NA NA NA NA NA NA
Dantley 1978 8 3 +0.86 21.64 +0.29 NA NA NA NA NA NA
Top SFs 1978 3 8 -0.86 18.82 -2.47 NA NA NA NA NA NA
Dantley 1979 9 4 +3.69 20.92 +3.59 NA NA NA NA NA NA
Top SFs 1979 4 9 -3.69 18.08 -2.96 NA NA NA NA NA NA
Dantley 1980 4 7 +0.88 27.82 -0.17 NA NA NA NA NA NA
Top SFs 1980 7 4 -0.88 21.91 +0.57 NA NA NA NA NA NA
Dantley 1981 6 10 +3.14 34.69 +4.04 NA NA NA NA NA NA
Top SFs 1981 10 6 -3.14 21.44 -1.22 NA NA NA NA NA NA
Dantley 1982 8 14 +0.36 33.36 +3.03 NA NA NA NA NA NA
Top SFs 1982 14 8 -0.36 23.45 +1.21 NA NA NA NA NA NA
Dantley 1983 2 3 -4.60 32.40 +1.67 NA NA NA NA .7066* +.0453
Top SFs 1983 3 2 +4.60 26.80 +2.86 NA NA NA NA .5618* +.0052
Dantley 1984 12 18 -2.63 31.13 +0.53 NA NA NA NA .6495 -.0025
Top SFs 1984 18 12 +2.63 24.07 +0.17 NA NA NA NA .5593 -.0108
Dantley 1985 8 16 +0.45 25.21 -1.37 NA NA NA NA .6092 +.0019
Top SFs 1985 16 8 -0.45 24.42 -0.32 NA NA NA NA .5601 +.0019
Dantley 1986 5 17 -0.68 29.18 -0.65 6.00 +0.80 3.82 +0.34 .6256 -.0030
Top SFs 1986 17 5 +0.68 20.95 -2.28 5.82 -0.09 3.73 -0.20 .5434 -.0221
Dantley 1987 18 13 +5.17 20.68 -0.83 4.29 +0.19 2.03 +0.03 .6055 -.0087
Top SFs 1987 13 18 -5.17 24.29 -1.57 7.03 +0.35 4.52 -0.24 .5360 -.0313
Dantley 1988 19 17 +0.08 20.00 +0.00 3.69 +0.40 2.06 -0.42 .6187 -.0003
Top SFs 1988 17 19 -0.08 22.00 -2.38 6.94 +0.56 4.36 +0.06 .5432 -.0284
Dantley 1989 11 6 +5.00 19.53 +0.38 3.71 -0.62 1.82 -0.52 .6050 +.0243
Top SFs 1989 6 11 -5.00 21.00 -1.63 6.12 +0.51 3.00 -0.49 .5164 -.0211
Dantley 1990 3 4 +1.63 18.57 +3.86 4.29 +0.46 1.00 -0.78 .6088 +.0532
Top SFs 1990 4 3 -1.63 20.29 -1.07 5.43 +0.36 4.43 +0.93 .5136 -.0382
Dantley Total 115 133 +1.24 25.52 +0.64 4.35 +0.27 2.29 -0.18 .6245 +.0033
Top SFs Total 133 115 -1.24 22.31 -1.13 6.53 +0.36 4.08 -0.10 .5458 -.0179


Dominique Wilkins:

Nique had a predictable scoring edge of nearly 3 PPG (though interestingly both his scoring AND his opponents' scoring was down over a point on season averages) on an equally predictable efficiency deficit of nearly 4% TS. The rebounding and assist stats are more relevant here as they encompass a larger part of his career, and the rebounding advantage and assist deficit that is shown is also largely expected. His teams were outperformed to the tune of over a point per game based on SRS expectations (worst of all 9 players considered here), and only in 1987 and 1991 did they post at least 1 more win than opponents.



Player Year W L Vs. Exp PPG Rel RPG Rel APG Rel TS Rel
Wilkins 1983 10 18 -2.96 15.32 -2.17 NA NA NA NA .4727 -.0513
Top SFs 1983 18 10 +2.96 23.82 +0.90 NA NA NA NA .5561 -.0011
Wilkins 1984 15 17 +1.62 20.75 -0.85 NA NA NA NA .5029 -.0283
Top SFs 1984 17 15 -1.62 22.19 -1.24 NA NA NA NA .5608 -.0102
Wilkins 1985 3 15 -2.60 28.78 +1.41 NA NA NA NA .5187 +.0046
Top SFs 1985 15 3 +2.60 28.61 +3.00 NA NA NA NA .5671 -.0053
Wilkins 1986 9 15 -2.06 28.96 -1.38 7.25 -0.67 3.00 +0.36 .5295 -.0064
Top SFs 1986 15 9 +2.06 23.38 -0.35 6.42 -0.94 4.67 -0.43 .5672 -.0041
Wilkins 1987 14 10 -1.40 28.50 -0.54 6.25 -0.00 3.25 -0.05 .5258 -.0169
Top SFs 1987 10 14 +1.40 22.04 -1.28 5.63 -0.03 4.08 +0.10 .5557 -.0333
Wilkins 1988 11 16 -1.15 29.63 -1.10 6.11 -0.32 2.33 -0.54 .5190 -.0148
Top SFs 1988 16 11 +1.15 19.96 -4.66 4.78 -1.70 3.78 -0.74 .5525 -.0331
Wilkins 1989 6 9 -3.80 25.07 -1.17 7.00 +0.09 2.33 -0.30 .5368 +.0085
Top SFs 1989 9 6 +3.80 15.80 -3.97 3.93 -0.69 2.93 -0.19 .5307 -.0275
Wilkins 1990 4 9 -0.16 23.23 -3.49 5.08 -1.44 2.15 -0.35 .5294 -.0267
Top SFs 1990 9 4 +0.16 20.54 -0.95 6.00 -0.20 4.00 -0.84 .6291 +.0799
Wilkins 1991 5 3 +3.92 24.13 -1.81 7.50 -1.54 2.63 -0.65 .5538 -.0012
Top SFs 1991 3 5 -3.92 17.75 -5.27 5.00 -1.68 5.63 -0.12 .4939 -.0353
Wilkins 1992 2 1 +7.93 27.00 -1.07 7.33 +0.31 4.33 +0.57 .5335 -.0181
Top SFs 1992 1 2 -7.93 16.00 -4.09 5.00 -3.31 5.00 -1.09 .5017 -.0255
Wilkins 1993 1 1 -15.04 26.00 -3.87 8.50 +1.71 3.00 -0.20 .6366 +.0664
Top SFs 1993 1 1 +15.04 17.50 +2.61 3.50 +0.49 3.50 +0.11 .6034 +.1091
Wilkins Total 80 114 -1.17 24.71 -1.17 6.54 -0.43 2.72 -0.17 .5192 -.0151
Top SFs Total 114 80 +1.17 21.91 -1.27 5.32 -0.90 4.09 -0.39 .5590 -.0094


You can see the full post here: http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=41264223#p41264223

I was limited by the character restriction to post the full thing as is.

[Fire Colangelo]

Stats are great and all, but it doesn't tell the whole story.

Dantley was never in the same breath as Dominique Wilkins when they both played.

[bizil]

Nique was great, too, but I just don't agree with there being any extra value to him being less predictable than Dantley on offense. They did what they did at the end of the day, and Dantley was a better scorer. In terms of accolades, I think part of it comes from the fact that Nique was a flashy player playing in a market shared with TNT studios, while Dantley's best work came in Utah.

As far as defending goes, I think both are given a bad rap, and perhaps rightly so, but I think it's overstated. Both players saw other top SFs score worse against them than against their averages, overall.

I'll again pinch from a post I made on RealGM, this time with head-to-head comparisons of top 80s SFs (Bird, Erving, Aguirre, Dantley, English, Marques Johnson, King, Wilkins and Worthy), keeping games in seasons where both players averaged at least 27 MPG.

A full set of spreadsheets with yearly comparisons of each player against all of the others collectively, as well as the 36 individual player vs. player matchups here (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1p1o-2YgPK6DELG9Cshmoo65nqewz4nENA-lmwWqugm4/edit?usp=sharing).

Below I'll post the summaries for each player against all of the others collectively. TS values with asterisks imply that up to half of the games in that season have missing statistics.

The column "Vs. Exp" is a comparison of team margin vs. SRS expectations, taking into account homecourt advantage. Each of the columns labelled "Rel" indicate difference from season averages of the previous column.

Adrian Dantley:

As you might expect, Dantley has the largest scoring margin of the 9 players considered here, outgunning his opponents by over 3 PPG on nearly 8% better TS. Team success in Utah was predictably poor (particularly 1985 and 1986), though not relative to SRS expectations. In fact, his teams tended to outperform their SRS expectations against this set of opponents. Most surprising may be that his opponents' scoring average was more than a point less than their respective season averages overall, and while his time in Detroit did contribute to that, his opponents weren't going crazy on him in Utah, even prior to the Jazz becoming good on defense in 1983. He loses out on rebounds and assists, though I imagine this is somewhat distorted by the fact the data is mostly available after he assumed a reduced role in Detroit and Dallas.



Player Year W L Vs. Exp PPG Rel RPG Rel APG Rel TS Rel
Dantley 1977 2 1 +9.35 19.00 -1.31 NA NA NA NA NA NA
Top SFs 1977 1 2 -9.35 14.67 -6.92 NA NA NA NA NA NA
Dantley 1978 8 3 +0.86 21.64 +0.29 NA NA NA NA NA NA
Top SFs 1978 3 8 -0.86 18.82 -2.47 NA NA NA NA NA NA
Dantley 1979 9 4 +3.69 20.92 +3.59 NA NA NA NA NA NA
Top SFs 1979 4 9 -3.69 18.08 -2.96 NA NA NA NA NA NA
Dantley 1980 4 7 +0.88 27.82 -0.17 NA NA NA NA NA NA
Top SFs 1980 7 4 -0.88 21.91 +0.57 NA NA NA NA NA NA
Dantley 1981 6 10 +3.14 34.69 +4.04 NA NA NA NA NA NA
Top SFs 1981 10 6 -3.14 21.44 -1.22 NA NA NA NA NA NA
Dantley 1982 8 14 +0.36 33.36 +3.03 NA NA NA NA NA NA
Top SFs 1982 14 8 -0.36 23.45 +1.21 NA NA NA NA NA NA
Dantley 1983 2 3 -4.60 32.40 +1.67 NA NA NA NA .7066* +.0453
Top SFs 1983 3 2 +4.60 26.80 +2.86 NA NA NA NA .5618* +.0052
Dantley 1984 12 18 -2.63 31.13 +0.53 NA NA NA NA .6495 -.0025
Top SFs 1984 18 12 +2.63 24.07 +0.17 NA NA NA NA .5593 -.0108
Dantley 1985 8 16 +0.45 25.21 -1.37 NA NA NA NA .6092 +.0019
Top SFs 1985 16 8 -0.45 24.42 -0.32 NA NA NA NA .5601 +.0019
Dantley 1986 5 17 -0.68 29.18 -0.65 6.00 +0.80 3.82 +0.34 .6256 -.0030
Top SFs 1986 17 5 +0.68 20.95 -2.28 5.82 -0.09 3.73 -0.20 .5434 -.0221
Dantley 1987 18 13 +5.17 20.68 -0.83 4.29 +0.19 2.03 +0.03 .6055 -.0087
Top SFs 1987 13 18 -5.17 24.29 -1.57 7.03 +0.35 4.52 -0.24 .5360 -.0313
Dantley 1988 19 17 +0.08 20.00 +0.00 3.69 +0.40 2.06 -0.42 .6187 -.0003
Top SFs 1988 17 19 -0.08 22.00 -2.38 6.94 +0.56 4.36 +0.06 .5432 -.0284
Dantley 1989 11 6 +5.00 19.53 +0.38 3.71 -0.62 1.82 -0.52 .6050 +.0243
Top SFs 1989 6 11 -5.00 21.00 -1.63 6.12 +0.51 3.00 -0.49 .5164 -.0211
Dantley 1990 3 4 +1.63 18.57 +3.86 4.29 +0.46 1.00 -0.78 .6088 +.0532
Top SFs 1990 4 3 -1.63 20.29 -1.07 5.43 +0.36 4.43 +0.93 .5136 -.0382
Dantley Total 115 133 +1.24 25.52 +0.64 4.35 +0.27 2.29 -0.18 .6245 +.0033
Top SFs Total 133 115 -1.24 22.31 -1.13 6.53 +0.36 4.08 -0.10 .5458 -.0179


Dominique Wilkins:

Nique had a predictable scoring edge of nearly 3 PPG (though interestingly both his scoring AND his opponents' scoring was down over a point on season averages) on an equally predictable efficiency deficit of nearly 4% TS. The rebounding and assist stats are more relevant here as they encompass a larger part of his career, and the rebounding advantage and assist deficit that is shown is also largely expected. His teams were outperformed to the tune of over a point per game based on SRS expectations (worst of all 9 players considered here), and only in 1987 and 1991 did they post at least 1 more win than opponents.



Player Year W L Vs. Exp PPG Rel RPG Rel APG Rel TS Rel
Wilkins 1983 10 18 -2.96 15.32 -2.17 NA NA NA NA .4727 -.0513
Top SFs 1983 18 10 +2.96 23.82 +0.90 NA NA NA NA .5561 -.0011
Wilkins 1984 15 17 +1.62 20.75 -0.85 NA NA NA NA .5029 -.0283
Top SFs 1984 17 15 -1.62 22.19 -1.24 NA NA NA NA .5608 -.0102
Wilkins 1985 3 15 -2.60 28.78 +1.41 NA NA NA NA .5187 +.0046
Top SFs 1985 15 3 +2.60 28.61 +3.00 NA NA NA NA .5671 -.0053
Wilkins 1986 9 15 -2.06 28.96 -1.38 7.25 -0.67 3.00 +0.36 .5295 -.0064
Top SFs 1986 15 9 +2.06 23.38 -0.35 6.42 -0.94 4.67 -0.43 .5672 -.0041
Wilkins 1987 14 10 -1.40 28.50 -0.54 6.25 -0.00 3.25 -0.05 .5258 -.0169
Top SFs 1987 10 14 +1.40 22.04 -1.28 5.63 -0.03 4.08 +0.10 .5557 -.0333
Wilkins 1988 11 16 -1.15 29.63 -1.10 6.11 -0.32 2.33 -0.54 .5190 -.0148
Top SFs 1988 16 11 +1.15 19.96 -4.66 4.78 -1.70 3.78 -0.74 .5525 -.0331
Wilkins 1989 6 9 -3.80 25.07 -1.17 7.00 +0.09 2.33 -0.30 .5368 +.0085
Top SFs 1989 9 6 +3.80 15.80 -3.97 3.93 -0.69 2.93 -0.19 .5307 -.0275
Wilkins 1990 4 9 -0.16 23.23 -3.49 5.08 -1.44 2.15 -0.35 .5294 -.0267
Top SFs 1990 9 4 +0.16 20.54 -0.95 6.00 -0.20 4.00 -0.84 .6291 +.0799
Wilkins 1991 5 3 +3.92 24.13 -1.81 7.50 -1.54 2.63 -0.65 .5538 -.0012
Top SFs 1991 3 5 -3.92 17.75 -5.27 5.00 -1.68 5.63 -0.12 .4939 -.0353
Wilkins 1992 2 1 +7.93 27.00 -1.07 7.33 +0.31 4.33 +0.57 .5335 -.0181
Top SFs 1992 1 2 -7.93 16.00 -4.09 5.00 -3.31 5.00 -1.09 .5017 -.0255
Wilkins 1993 1 1 -15.04 26.00 -3.87 8.50 +1.71 3.00 -0.20 .6366 +.0664
Top SFs 1993 1 1 +15.04 17.50 +2.61 3.50 +0.49 3.50 +0.11 .6034 +.1091
Wilkins Total 80 114 -1.17 24.71 -1.17 6.54 -0.43 2.72 -0.17 .5192 -.0151
Top SFs Total 114 80 +1.17 21.91 -1.27 5.32 -0.90 4.09 -0.39 .5590 -.0094


You can see the full post here: http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=41264223#p41264223

I was limited by the character restriction to post the full thing as is.

Interesting stuff no doubt! I put these guys right around the same level of scoring dominance at the SF (or course this is once Doc slowed down):

Bird
Dantley
Nique
English
Bernard King
Mark Aguirre


I think all of these guys were right around the same area at their peaks scoring wise. So from there, I think it comes down to scoring skillsets and a couple of things u can't teach. From here, I think Bird, King, and Nique had the best peaks. I think they had the size and three point stroke (in Bird's case) or explosiveness (Nique and King's case) to enhance their scoring skillsets even more. And of course overall as players, Bird was far and away the best because of his great all around ability.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I'm not sure what you're implying here with the numbers being in context - do you mean the defenses he was facing? The impact for the team, etc? In any case, I think those numbers for the playoffs I posted show his value to Detroit on the offensive end. I think a lot of people's perceptions about Dantley would be different had Detroit won that coin-toss 1988 Finals.

By context, I mean how much value you put into those numbers. Sure Dantley was a fantastic scorer and all, but did his scoring translate into winning? We know he played on loaded teams, basically throughout his career, so having bad teammates isn't an excuse. Given the sample size (large enough), I would have to say his statistical prowess/and scoring is largely overstated.

[3ball]

By context, I mean how much value you put into those numbers. Sure Dantley was a fantastic scorer and all, but did his scoring translate into winning? We know he played on loaded teams, basically throughout his career, so having bad teammates isn't an excuse. Given the sample size (large enough), I would have to say his statistical prowess/and scoring is largely overstated.
who cares - lebron played like Dantley in the 2014 Finals (only scored, nothing else) and everyone says he played great.

if you value this, you should respect Dantley's scoring - he wouldn't have only taken 17 shots per game on a top-heavy team, EVER... no one should.

[3ball]

so what you're saying is that it was easier to score in the 80's?


no, i'm saying the pace was faster because offenses were not slowed down by having to seek out open 3-point shots - they took all 2-pointers instead.

Two pointers don't need to be as open as 3-pointers, so the very purpose of running offense (to get open shots) was reduced in previous eras... With tougher shots more acceptable, teams ran less offense, players were accustomed to taking more contested two-point shots, and the game played faster and more instinctively.

But even though the pace was faster and teams were scoring more, the lack of spacing and increased physicality caused shots to be more contested on average, which is why overall SHOOTING EFFICENCY was lower back then.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Regarding your charts via the Piston years. You should also check his on/off splits.

The 89 season I suggested earlier, for example. Before being traded, Dantley and the Pistons won 30 games with an adjusted points diff of 4.5. Post trade for Mark Agguire, they won 3 more games in the regular season, a 7.6 points diff, and as I pointed out, averaged a better DRtG (-0.8) and ORtg (+4.7) to go along with a title (sweeping the Lakers this time around).

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

who cares - lebron played like Dantley in the 2014 Finals (only scored, nothing else) and everyone says he played great.

if you value this, you should respect Dantley's scoring - he wouldn't have only taken 17 shots per game on a top-heavy team, EVER... no one should.

No he didn't.

But disregarding your obvious agenda, the difference here is that LeBron came off back-to-back titles, leading his team in most statistical categories (not just scoring).

[Moonbeam]

By context, I mean how much value you put into those numbers. Sure Dantley was a fantastic scorer and all, but did his scoring translate into winning? We know he played on loaded teams, basically throughout his career, so having bad teammates isn't an excuse. Given the sample size (large enough), I would have to say his statistical prowess/and scoring is largely overstated.

His teammates were largely terrible when he was playing his best ball in Utah. A lot of guys were given much bigger roles than anywhere else in the league, and many didn't play anywhere either before or after their time in Utah. His most impactful teammate was probably Mark Eaton toward the end of his time in Utah, and it's no surprise that Utah then started to win.

I think he was very valuable in Detroit's postseason runs with him. He was pretty much universally praised for his play during those runs from teammates, coaches, and opponents alike.

He's not a guy to make his teammates demonstrably better like Bird or Magic, but I think he definitely used his abilities to help his team win.

[Moonbeam]

Stats are great and all, but it doesn't tell the whole story.

Dantley was never in the same breath as Dominique Wilkins when they both played.

How so? As the lead guy, he led the Jazz to the 2nd round twice (albeit in the weak West), and Nique did the same, with what I'd say are better teammates.

[magnax1]

I used to cut out Albom's columns from the Detroit Free Press as a kid - love the guy! I think what you're citing is only part of the story. In that very article you see support for Dantley from Salley and Dumars. There were countless accounts of him teaching the younger Pistons what it meant to be a professional.

I think it's misguided to suggest that Dantley didn't adjust his game to fit Detroit. I'm going to pinch from a post I made on RealGM:

So did Dantley actually hurt Detroit? I think that's a stretch - he had to compromise a lot coming to Detroit from Utah.

Source: http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1988-05-15/sports/8803170231_1_vinnie-johnson-adrian-dantley-guy/2" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



Dantley was particularly valuable to those Piston teams in the playoffs, when possessions slowed and defenses could focus more on stopping Detroit's offense. Dantley, as usual, was very potent despite the best efforts of the defense.

I'm working on a playoff Score+ metric (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/14Cmhy7jDzT6qBgahLMRBNtE_mUibNUAmQQDhblwwFAk/edit?usp=sharing) which compares volume and efficiency to opponents. So just how much did Dantley's efficiency and volume mean to Detroit in the postseason? Well, in 1987, he added more than twice as many additional points above expectations than any other Piston player:



Player Score+ TotScore+
Adrian Dantley 4.457 44.415
Joe Dumars 2.266 21.348
Rick Mahorn 1.791 17.217
Dennis Rodman 1.377 6.719
John Salley 0.922 5.711
Bill Laimbeer 0.407 4.403
Sidney Green 4.556 3.859
Tony Campbell 7.028 1.868
Isiah Thomas 0.148 1.660
Chuck Nevitt -10.431 -2.124
Kurt Nimphius -5.223 -3.210
Vinnie Johnson -1.242 -9.606


In 1988, Dantley's offense was even more important to keep Detroit afloat:



Player Score+ TotScore+
Adrian Dantley 3.593 54.472
John Salley 1.612 18.938
James Edwards 0.599 3.476
Chuck Nevitt -1.306 -0.099
Walker Russell -0.905 -0.172
Ralph Lewis -7.200 -2.318
Dennis Rodman -0.518 -4.629
Joe Dumars -0.435 -6.588
Isiah Thomas -0.549 -9.433
Bill Laimbeer -0.822 -12.080
Rick Mahorn -3.758 -28.950
Vinnie Johnson -4.414 -39.732


When Dantley was knocked out in 1987 due to a concussion in Game 7 of the ECF, Laimbeer added this (http://articles.latimes.com/1987-05-31/sports/sp-9422_1_boston-celtics/3):



But Dantley's contributions were not just on offense - he put in significant effort on defense in both 1987 and 1988.

Source: http://archives.chicagotribune.com/1988/06/03/page/69/article/bad-backs-could-hurt-the-celtics" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



Source: http://mitchalbom.com/d/journalism/535/latest-news-dantley-old-message-updated" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



Source: http://articles.latimes.com/1988-06-08/sports/sp-3893_1_detroit-pistons" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



Opponent Michael Cooper during the 1988 Finals: http://articles.philly.com/1988-06-12/sports/26266832_1_bad-rap-joe-dumars-defense" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



Dantley by and large bought into Detroit's team ethos. He didn't mesh well with Isiah, and he had that moment where he refused to sub out in Boston, and that led to him being shipped out. But he got along great with most of his teammates (Joe Dumars called him his favorite teammate ever and John Salley was very upset at his trade as well) and managed to change the narrative about him as a selfish loner.

I think this article (http://mitchalbom.com/d/journalism/835/one-win-away-ad-teaches-pistons-play-fire-104-94-victory) from after Game 5 of the 1988 Finals sums it up quite well.

Edit: And this one (http://mitchalbom.com/d/journalism/351/gimme-ring-after-12-years-dantley-hungry-championship), too.
Fantastic post. Totally rep worth if there still was rep. Glad to see some good posters with new accounts for a change instead of just trolls.

[Moonbeam]

No he didn't.

But disregarding your obvious agenda, the difference here is that LeBron came off back-to-back titles, leading his team in most statistical categories (not just scoring).

Well, Dantley is nowhere near LeBron's level. But we're comparing him mostly to Nique here. I'd argue they are in a similar tier (Dantley ahead for me) - that's all.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Well, Dantley is nowhere near LeBron's level. But we're comparing him mostly to Nique here. I'd argue they are in a similar tier (Dantley ahead for me) - that's all.
Agreed. I also like your posts, stick around. :cheers:

[Moonbeam]

Regarding your charts via the Piston years. You should also check his on/off splits.

The 89 season I suggested earlier, for example. Before being traded, Dantley and the Pistons won 30 games with an adjusted points diff of 4.5. Post trade for Mark Agguire, they won 3 more games in the regular season, a 7.6 points diff, and as I pointed out, averaged a better DRtG (-0.8) and ORtg (+4.7) to go along with a title (sweeping the Lakers this time around).

I had a look at the 1988 season in detail, but not 1989 yet. Dantley was exiting his prime in 1989, though. I don't think he was on the same level as before. He was just shy of 34 when he was traded. I still think Detroit would likely have won with Dantley in 1989, but they certainly did take off after the trade.

[Moonbeam]

Agreed. I also like your posts, stick around. :cheers:

Cheers! I enjoy these friendly debates.

[magnax1]

Regarding your charts via the Piston years. You should also check his on/off splits.

The 89 season I suggested earlier, for example. Before being traded, Dantley and the Pistons won 30 games with an adjusted points diff of 4.5. Post trade for Mark Agguire, they won 3 more games in the regular season, a 7.6 points diff, and as I pointed out, averaged a better DRtG (-0.8) and ORtg (+4.7) to go along with a title (sweeping the Lakers this time around).
I don't think anyone is going to argue that Dantley was better than Aguire at that point. Dantley was in very clear decline at that point. He had his first season not scoring 20 and breaking 50% FG% in ages, and his per minute stats fell off pretty hard too. Aguire was just coming off his best year where he made the conference finals and scored 25 ppg on good shooting.

It's not like you can argue that Aguire was the difference maker in them being champions. They were a hairs breadth away from it in 88 with Dantley dominating the Lakers in the finals and arguing playing like the finals MVP.

[Moonbeam]

I don't think anyone is going to argue that Dantley was better than Aguire at that point. Dantley was in very clear decline at that point. He had his first season not scoring 20 and breaking 50% FG% in ages, and his per minute stats fell off pretty hard too. Aguire was just coming off his best year where he made the conference finals and scored 25 ppg on good shooting.

It's not like you can argue that Aguire was the difference maker in them being champions. They were a hairs breadth away from it in 88 with Dantley dominating the Lakers in the finals and arguing playing like the finals MVP.

Well said.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I don't think anyone is going to argue that Dantley was better than Aguire at that point. Dantley was in very clear decline at that point. He had his first season not scoring 20 and breaking 50% FG% in ages, and his per minute stats fell off pretty hard too. Aguire was just coming off his best year where he made the conference finals and scored 25 ppg on good shooting.

It's not like you can argue that Aguire was the difference maker in them being champions. They were a hairs breadth away from it in 88 with Dantley dominating the Lakers in the finals and arguing playing like the finals MVP.

Aguirre's defense and willingness to "buy in" was huge, imo. Not sure about it being THE difference maker, but I know I'd rather have him on my team if we're talking about winning titles, and comradery w/ elite ball clubs.

[Papaya Petee]

2000-2014 (probably until 2012) was the best era ever for SG and SF positions.


This isn't rocket science 3ball, and most people in this thread agree. You started with saying that the top-level perimeter talent in the 84-98 era was better, when most posters disagreed with you, you started changing it to it was "deeper"

Aside from Jordan, the next top 5-6 wing players since 1984 have been from the 00-14 era, unless you want to argue 2 years of Larry Bird vs 5-10 Years from Durant, Wade, T-Mac or AI. Clyde could maybe be argued over T-Mac or AI, but I would personally take a 02-03 T-Mac and 00-01 Iverson over 88-89 or 91-92 Clyde.

2000-2014 was just stacked. No shame in 1984-1998 being slightly worse, we already know Jordan is the GOAT so you don't have to try overrating his era to make him look even better.

[magnax1]

They would've won the title either way even with Dantley's decline almost certainly. Their oly competition wasLA and they were too injured in the finals to make it a real series.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

They would've won the title either way even with Dantley's decline almost certainly. Their oly competition wasLA and they were too injured in the finals to make it a real series.
In 1989? Doubt it - but we can agree to disagree. You're obviously a big fan of his, while I'm not particularly enamored w/ him or his scoring.

[magnax1]

In 1989? Doubt it - but we can agree to disagree. You're obviously a big fan of his, while I'm not particularly enamored w/ him or his scoring.
Honestly I don't care about him that much. I think he was one of the best scorers ever, but I don't particularly like watching him or anything. I don't know who you think could've beaten them that year though. Their competition was basically nonexistent. The only team to win against them in the playoffs was the 47 win bulls which was basically compromised of Jordan playing offense for the entire team and making up at least half of the defensive effort too.

[Moonbeam]

Honestly I don't care about him that much. I think he was one of the best scorers ever, but I don't particularly like watching him or anything. I don't know who you think could've beaten them that year though. Their competition was basically nonexistent. The only team to win against them in the playoffs was the 47 win bulls which was basically compromised of Jordan playing offense for the entire team and making up at least half of the defensive effort too.

I agree with this. The competition flamed out in 1989. Cleveland massively fell off and the Lakers were injured, and even so they were no match for Dantley the year before. 1988 was a tougher slate of opponents for Detroit, for sure.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I don't know who you think could've beaten them that year though. Their competition was basically nonexistent. The only team to win against them in the playoffs was the 47 win bulls which was basically compromised of Jordan playing offense for the entire team and making up at least half of the defensive effort too.

I believe Chicago COULD have beaten them. Yeah they might have only won 47 games in the regular season, but all games in their ECF series were won by a margin of 9 or fewer points (one game within 6 points, the other 2 points); and were also visibly won in the final period. Without Aguirre's defense, acceptance of role, and all-around efficient play (he was a bit more productive than Dantley at this point), I could see this series going either way w/ AD in place of him.

Could and would are two different things, though. Who knows.

[Young X]

In 1989? Doubt it - but we can agree to disagree. You're obviously a big fan of his, while I'm not particularly enamored w/ him or his scoring.Why not? They were one bad call away from winning it with him the year before and Scott/Magic were injured for most of the finals. Sad how close he was to getting a ring, Pistons did him dirty.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Why not? They were one bad call away from winning it with him the year before and Scott/Magic were injured for most of the finals. Sad how close he was to getting a ring, Pistons did him dirty.

True, you can say a pretty BS call costed them the title... And if they would've won, AD would've most likely gotten FMVP even though Dumars was their best in game7.

Those Pistons were stacked and AD was actually changing his ways, playing D, being more of a team-player, shooting/hogging less... So yea, I think they could've won the title with him instead of Aguirre, but who knows?

Dantley also complained because Rodman was coming into his own while getting more and more minutes... And imo they would've been even better with someone like Wilkins at SF; plus Nique had clearly more impact and did better with comparable help as Dantley, on a much tougher conference, while they were at their best as alpha dogs leading "their own" team.

Aguirre is also underrated, Dantley was certainly a better player but Mark was more team-oriented, defended and passed better, more versatile and also a very good scorer, plus he almost led the Mavs to the Finals in 1988...

[Fire Colangelo]

How so? As the lead guy, he led the Jazz to the 2nd round twice (albeit in the weak West), and Nique did the same, with what I'd say are better teammates.

You answered your own question, the west was extremely weak during those years, even weaker than this year's East. He had a good run in 85 though.

Dominique's teammates weren't that great either, and he was going up against the Celtics, Pistons, Bulls.

Look at it this way, Dantley was a journeyman for pretty much his whole career playing for 7 teams. While Dominique was a franchise player for pretty much his whole career.

[3ball]

I agree with this. The competition flamed out in 1989. Cleveland massively fell off


Cleveland fell off in 1989?.. Their wins increased from 42 to 57, and they had the league's #2 defense... they were stacked - how many teams today could match a starting 5 of price, harper, nance, hot rod, daughtery?
.

[3ball]

It's not like you can argue that Aguire was the difference maker in them being champions. They were a hairs breadth away from it in 88 with Dantley dominating the Lakers in the finals and arguing playing like the finals MVP.


You can't just look at a guy's stats and say - "well, the Pistons almost won with Dantley in 1988, and Dantley's stats were similar to Aguirre's, so Dantley would have won with them in 1989 had he stayed."

Once the Pistons missed their chance in 1988, the team was pissed and Dantley was the fall guy... for them to come that close and lose - no one can proceed normally after something like that as if nothing happened... something's gotta give, and for the Pistons, it was Dantley... you guys underrate these type of non-quantitative factors, but usually if you know what they are, the stats don't matter and/or can be put in their proper context.

Also, Dantley's capability had declined a lot - by the time Dantley left, he had declined to the level Aguirre was at anyway, so it made a ton of sense to trade him... before he declined however, Dantley was on another level offensively from Aguirre.

But Aguirre fit in like a glove when he got to Detroit - kind of like Rasheed did in 2004... Aguirre was a like a better version of Boris Diaw - he could playmake and pass better than Dantley, was a smarter, more shrewd player, and at that time, Aguirre was considered a 3-point shooting threat that spread the floor.. :eek:
.

[3ball]

Aside from Jordan, the next top 5-6 wing players since 1984 have been from the 00-14 era, unless you want to argue 2 years of Larry Bird vs 5-10 Years from Durant, Wade, T-Mac or AI. Clyde could maybe be argued over T-Mac or AI, but I would personally take a 02-03 T-Mac and 00-01 Iverson over 88-89 or 91-92 Clyde.

2000-2014 was just stacked. No shame in 1984-1998 being slightly worse, we already know Jordan is the GOAT so you don't have to try overrating his era to make him look even better.


Kobe Bryant < Michael Jordan
LeBron James < Larry Bird
Dwayne Wade > Scottie Pippen
Kevin Durant > Dr. J
James Harden < Clyde Drexler
Tracy McGrady < Dominique Wilkins
Paul Pierce > James Worthy
Carmelo Anthony > Bernard King
Vince Carter < Grant Hill
Allen Iverson < Penny Hardaway


1984-1998 wins 6-4.

We never got to see Penny or Hill's prime because of injury, but even before the injuries, I'd take an athletic 6'7" PG and 6'8" point forward over Iverson and Vince's less optimal playing style and physiques (iverson was a short gunner... vince was slow-footed compared to Hill, more of just a chucker than a play-making point forward like Hill).. Regardless, we could replace Hill with Adrian Dantley anyway - he's easily better than vince... probably AI too for that matter.

Harden is just entering his prime now in 2015 - up through 2014 (and even up to now), he has done nothing of note (Drexler's stats were just as good)... What Harden HAS done in the playoffs is underperform and cost OKC it's only shot at a championship.. So far, Harden < 2-time Finalist Drexler.. Drexler averaged 25/8/5 in the 92' Finals vs. MJ and has better overall stats.

Larry > Lebron is easy and supported by most... Lebron's style is problematic - we know it can carry scrubs to the 2nd round (maybe further in a weak conference), but his style significantly decreases the stats of talented supporting casts, so those teams are susceptible to losing as the favorite or to inferior talent... Bird's style could elevate scrubs just like Lebron, but his style could mesh with talented casts without diminishing their stats, allowing the team to play to it's capacity and at a higher level than any of Lebron's teams, while never underperforming (losing as the favorite).

Dominique over Tmac is easy too - more power, tougher and more competitive.. better motor... played better competition and went further in the playoffs.
.

[aj1987]

Kobe Bryant < Michael Jordan
LeBron James < Larry Bird
Dwayne Wade > Scottie Pippen
Kevin Durant > Dr. J
James Harden < Clyde Drexler
Tracy McGrady < Dominique Wilkins
Paul Pierce > James Worthy
Carmelo Anthony > Bernard King
Vince Carter < Grant Hill
Allen Iverson < Penny Hardaway
Hill had like 3 good seasons until '98. Carter started playing in '99 and had like a 24/5/5 average for 11 seasons. Not even close.

Penny over AI? :kobe: :whatever: :durantunimpressed:

GTFOH. This is coming from someone who HATES AI, BTW.

[3ball]

Hill had like 3 good seasons until '98. Carter started playing in '99 and had like a 24/5/5 average for 11 seasons. Not even close.

Penny over AI?

GTFOH. This is coming from someone who HATES AI, BTW.


I'm surprised people are taking a guy like Iverson, a selfish chucker who didn't even make an all-star team until his 4th season, over Penny who was 1st team All-NBA in his 2nd season and showed he could have been one of the best ever if he hadn't got hurt.

AI is not capable of being on good teams... He can't be the best player on a championship team because of his style of play and stature... it's unfortunate, but a little gunner like that has no chance of being the leader of a team capable of beating anyone decent, certainly not any past Finals participant.

Regarding Vince vs. Grant Hill - Carter is slow and was never remotely on the same level as Hill as a playmaker - he was more of a chucker than a heads-up-at-all-times point-forward like Hill... and again, if you don't like Hill, the 1984-1998 class is deep enough to have other guys easily better than Carter, like Adrian Dantley.

[aj1987]

I'm surprised people are taking a guy like Iverson, a selfish chucker who didn't even make an all-star team until his 4th season, over Penny who was 1st team All-NBA in his 2nd season and showed he could have been one of the best ever if he hadn't got hurt.

AI is not capable of being on good teams... He can't be the best player on a championship team because of his style of play and stature... it's unfortunate, but a little gunner like that has no chance of being the leader of a team capable of beating anyone decent, certainly not any past Finals participant.

:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

AI went to the Finals, idiot. You're talking about accolades?
AI - 7 All-NBA teams
Penny - 3 All-NBA teams (:oldlol: @ making the first team with 21/4/7 and 22/4/7)

AI - 11x All-Star
Penny - 4x

AI was also the MVP, ROY, 4x scoring champ, and 3x steals leader.

Sure, AI missed the All-Star game his first 3 years. However, he made the first team in his third year. He missed them averaging 24/4/8/2, 22/4/6/2, and 27/5/5/2 (missed the All-Star selection, but made the first team).

Penny went to the Finals once with PRIME Shaq. AI made it with Mutombo as his second best player (he was great as well, but not even close to prime Shaq). Replace Mutombo with Shaq on that Sixers squad and they're winning a ring without question. BTW, how many rings does Penny have?

Yeah, AI >> Penny and it's not even close.


Regarding Vince vs. Grant Hill - Carter is slow and was never remotely on the same level as Hill as a playmaker - he was more of a chucker than a heads-up-at-all-times point-forward like Hill... and again, if you don't like Hill, the 1984-1998 class is deep enough to have other guys easily better than Carter, like Adrian Dantley.
Again, Hill had like 3 good years. Vince was a 24/5/5 player for 11 years. Even Dantley had only ~4 good years from '84 onwards.

[Moonbeam]

You answered your own question, the west was extremely weak during those years, even weaker than this year's East. He had a good run in 85 though.

Dominique's teammates weren't that great either, and he was going up against the Celtics, Pistons, Bulls.

Look at it this way, Dantley was a journeyman for pretty much his whole career playing for 7 teams. While Dominique was a franchise player for pretty much his whole career.

I think Nique had better teammates. I've looked at decomposing Win Shares to see if they tend to overcredit or undercredit certain players. I'll copy parts of a post I used in decomposing offensive win shares here, but I've done it with defensive win shares in the same way:

I used offensive win shares as the basis for this analysis. I know many aren't happy with OWS, but on a team-level, it is very strongly correlated with offensive rating, which is a good measure of overall team offensive performance. I looked at all regular season data from 1977-2014 to come up with a set of aging curves to encompass different types of peak shapes. I've used five different levels of peak sharpness and five different peak ages (21, 24, 27, 30, and 33), which makes it possible to model a player's career based on OWS/48, like this:

http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w155/Moonbeamlevels88/70c90da4-88df-47fc-b52c-6713b8e3a556_zps1c16c0f5.png

This is a very simple approach, but I wanted something specific enough to broadly capture the relationship between offensive production and aging, but not too specific as to produce perfect models - I'm interested in the deviations from expectations, after all, so I'm happy with a bit of noise. :)

Based on these curves of expected OWS/48, I then looked at team offense relative to expectations as judged by total OWS. I'm still looking to road-test this analysis, so if you know of any instances where you felt a team overachieved or underachieved its talent level, I'd be eager to check it against my model!

I parsed out performance relative to expectations for each of these players plus Larry Bird (in >28 MPG seasons) and their respective teammates as a whole. Why 28 MPG? I wanted to include enough seasons to get a big picture view, plus I wanted to avoid discontinuities where I could (e.g. Bernard King's 1988 season). Here are the resulting plots of player OWS, player expected OWS, teammate ("help") OWS and expected teammate OWS:

http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w155/Moonbeamlevels88/e1970449-646d-4a22-924c-662716e31459_zps85a61393.png

http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w155/Moonbeamlevels88/98477a7b-1927-4814-87c6-a178eb994d7e_zpsb3ab15a0.png

You can look at graphs for other top 80s SFs here (http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=41217721#p41217721).

Now let's look at the defensive win shares:

http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w155/Moonbeamlevels88/630456a5-ad1e-4d16-84b9-d8d9699c4652_zps2d885f17.png (http://s175.photobucket.com/user/Moonbeamlevels88/media/630456a5-ad1e-4d16-84b9-d8d9699c4652_zps2d885f17.png.html)

http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w155/Moonbeamlevels88/4b98349b-cd70-48b0-91e0-ec57302e70b5_zps2ee9d42e.png (http://s175.photobucket.com/user/Moonbeamlevels88/media/4b98349b-cd70-48b0-91e0-ec57302e70b5_zps2ee9d42e.png.html)

Here's how much help Dantley actually got, and what he could expect from this method in years that Utah made the playoffs:



Year OWS Expected DWS Expected
1984 11.20 4.96 18.17 21.17
1985 3.51 5.28 30.03 28.41
1986 2.76 5.83 24.95 35.18


Here's the story for Nique in playoff years as a star (let's go 1986-93):



Year OWS Expected DWS Expected
1986 15.94 13.68 20.63 23.22
1987 22.33 16.84 23.89 24.49
1988 21.10 17.54 18.22 23.13
1989 24.50 23.87 18.72 15.98
1991 20.08 20.06 12.12 18.23
1993 15.73 19.64 13.70 20.74


So on average, Dantley's teammates provided 30.21 Win Shares and were expected to provide 33.61 Win Shares.

Nique's teammates on average provided 37.83 Win Shares and were expected to provide 39.57 Win Shares. In the years that Nique's teams made the 2nd round (1986-88), his teammates provided an average of 40.70 Win Shares against an expectation of 39.63 Win Shares. That's a gap of around 6-7 extra wins overall (and 6-10 in years the Hawks made the 2nd round) Nique's teammates provided or were expected to provide. So while the Hawks did face tougher competition in the years they made the 2nd round, I'd say Nique had more support.

[3ball]

I used offensive win shares as the basis for this analysis....

......so while the Hawks did face tougher competition in the years they made the 2nd round, I'd say Nique had more support.


Flpiii, OWS doesn't account for how a guy's playing style affects the ORtg and OWS of his teammates - i.e. the ORtg and OWS of Dantley's teammates would be different if they played alongside Wilkins instead, and vice versa, so you can't use OWS to evaluate how much supporting help a guy has.

you can really only use OWS to compare how well two players execute the offensive duties they are tasked with, which is actually quite valuable and useful... but that's it.

[julizaver]

.
..........TOP 10 WINGS (SG or SF)


...2000-2014.............1984-1998

Kobe Bryant............. Michael Jordan
LeBron James........... Larry Bird
Dwayne Wade.......... Scottie Pippen
Kevin Durant............ Dr. J
James Harden.......... Clyde Drexler
Tracy McGrady......... Dominique Wilkins
Paul Pierce.............. James Worthy
Carmelo Anthony...... Bernard King
Vince Carter............ Grant Hill/Dantley
Allen Iverson........... Penny Hardaway


HM 1984-1998: Joe Dumars, Sidney Moncrief, Alvin Robertson, Reggie Miller, Dennis Johnson, Ronaldo Blackman, Mitch Richmond, Dennis Rodman, Adrian Dantley, Alex English, Chris Mullin, Glen Rice, Kiki Vandeweghe, Mark Aguirre, Glenn Robinson, Jamaal Mashburn, Detlef Schrempf, Reggie Lewis, Latrell Sprewell, Fat Lever, Jeff Hornacek, Allan Houston, Eddie Jones, Jeff Malone

HM 2000-2014: Ray Allen, Manu Ginobili, Brandon Roy, Ron Artest, Paul George, Joe Johnson, Rip Hamilton, Gilbert Arenas, Ron Artest, Shawn Marion, Michael Redd, Peja Stojakovic, Antawn Jamison, Luol Deng, Rashard Lewis


we can split hairs all day over the top 10 - the top 10 in any era will be great... but clearly, the 1984-1998 wings have superior depth of great players than 2000-2014.... I was really reaching for names at the end with the 2000-2014 HM wings.. is anyone missing?
.

Players like Rodman, Marion, Jameson are not SF in my opinion although the last two have played the position. We should add late Drazen Petrovic to 84 - 98 squad as he was one of the best shooters and prior to his death in 1993 in his only 2 full season with the Nets he was over 20 ppg on more than 50 % shooting. And if we have Doctor J we shall add also G. Gervin who was still an elite player prior to his retirement in 1986.
Anyway the depth of talent was far greater in 1984-1998 on any position then the 2000-2014.

[fpliii]

Flpiii, OWS doesn't account for how a guy's playing style affects the ORtg and OWS of his teammates - i.e. the ORtg and OWS of Dantley's teammates would be different if they played alongside Wilkins instead, and vice versa, so you can't use OWS to evaluate how much supporting help a guy has.

you can really only use OWS to compare how well two players execute the offensive duties they are tasked with, which is actually quite valuable and useful... but that's it.
Might want to check that username bud. That's Moonbeam, who just joined from RealGM, not me. He's a much more patient poster than I could ever be, so maybe you'll have better luck with him. I also don't consider WS (or PER, or any other box score derived measures) when evaluating players.

As I said, I'm done debating with you for the time being. If we can't agree on simple statements, I'm not going to waste my time assembling arguments.

[dunksby]

For those who still think AD is better or close to Durant in scoring:
Points Per 100 Possessions first 7 years:
KD:
29.2
33.33
39.4
36.8
37.5
37.6
42.8
This season so far: 41.1

AD:
24.8
26.0
26.6
35.0
35.3
35.2
34.1 (played only 22 games his seventh year)

[3ball]

For those who still think AD is better or close to Durant in scoring:
Points Per 100 Possessions first 7 years:
KD:
29.2
33.33
39.4
36.8
37.5
37.6
42.8
This season so far: 41.1

AD:
24.8
26.0
26.6
35.0
35.3
35.2
34.1 (played only 22 games his seventh year)


Adrian Dantley isn't better than Durant... Durant's a little better.

but Dantley IS better than Vince Carter... easily... so for all those saying Vince is better than Grant Hill - just replace Grant Hill with Dantley - this gives 1984-1998 the edge at that spot, which would give them the edge over 2000-2014 for the entire top 10.

of course, we already knew that 1984-1998 had the DEEPER class of players at the wing position, but with Dantley replacing Hill, now they definitely have the edge in the top 10 too..
.

[aj1987]

Adrian Dantley isn't better than Durant... Durant's a little better.

but Dantley IS better than Vince Carter... easily... so for all those saying Vince is better than Grant Hill - just replace Grant Hill with Dantley - this gives 1984-1998 the edge at that spot, which would give them the edge over 2000-2014 for the entire top 10.

of course, we already knew that 1984-1998 had the DEEPER class of players at the wing position, but with Dantley replacing Hill, now they definitely have the edge in the top 10 too..
.
Holy shit! Please leap off of a cliff. You're beyond retarded.

[magnax1]

Once the Pistons missed their chance in 1988, the team was pissed and Dantley was the fall guy... for them to come that close and lose - no one can proceed normally after something like that as if nothing happened... something's gotta give, and for the Pistons, it was Dantley... you guys underrate these type of non-quantitative factors, but usually if you know what they are, the stats don't matter and/or can be put in their proper context.
This just isn't true. The Spurs just had the same thing happened and won with exactly the same team as when they lost the title. The "Leadership" style factors are almost always a cop out for explaining why someone you like better is better with no real evidence.

[magnax1]

For those who still think AD is better or close to Durant in scoring:
Points Per 100 Possessions first 7 years:
KD:
29.2
33.33
39.4
36.8
37.5
37.6
42.8
This season so far: 41.1

AD:
24.8
26.0
26.6
35.0
35.3
35.2
34.1 (played only 22 games his seventh year)
You happened to post the stats for AD right up until he had a 37.1 and 38.4 season. Pretty convenient.
AD from 80-86 35.8 per 100 KD from 13-present 39.8 Their TS% over the same period was 63.2 vs 64.3
There is hardly a gap in scoring at all. KD is a better player, but to act like he's on another level as a scorer is stupid.

[3ball]

This just isn't true. The Spurs just had the same thing happened and won with exactly the same team as when they lost the title. The "Leadership" style factors are almost always a cop out for explaining why someone you like better is better with no real evidence.
it is true... that was the reality at the time - no need to post a comparison to the Spurs 15 years later... that's not relevant at all.. two totally different situations.

[3ball]

Holy shit! Please leap off of a cliff. You're beyond retarded.
dude Penny's better than AI - Penny was 1st team All-NBA in his 2nd season - that shows a much higher trajectory than Iverson's... you guys also forget how much of a defensive liability Iverson was compared to Hardaway and how much he messed up the rotations because he had to guard bigger two's.

then there's Hill and Dantley over Vince - you don't realize what a chucker Vince was... and he wasn't even nearly as good a chucker as Dantley was.... obviously, Vince's skill set can't match a heads-up point forward with much better footspeed like Grant Hill... Grant Hill had guard-speed and played like a 6'8" point guard - a totally different level of player from the slower, more of a forward-type and chucker mode Vince.

i think to most people that know basketball pretty well, they understand that Penny was better than AI (who needed an ENTIRE team to himself to subsist) and Hill was actually EASILY better than Vince..

[aj1987]

dude Penny's better than AI - Penny was 1st team All-NBA in his 2nd season - that shows a much higher trajectory than Iverson's... you guys also forget how much of a defensive liability Iverson was compared to Hardaway and how much he messed up the rotations because he had to guard bigger two's.

then there's Hill and Dantley over Vince - you don't realize what a chucker Vince was... and he wasn't even nearly as good a chucker as Dantley was.... obviously, Vince's skill set can't match a heads-up point forward with much better footspeed like Grant Hill... Grant Hill had guard-speed and played like a 6'8" point guard - a totally different level of player from the slower, more of a forward-type and chucker mode Vince.

i think to most people that know basketball pretty well, they understand that Penny was better than AI (who needed an ENTIRE team to himself to subsist) and Hill was actually EASILY better than Vince..
:roll:

This kid doe...

[dunksby]

You happened to post the stats for AD right up until he had a 37.1 and 38.4 season. Pretty convenient.
AD from 80-86 35.8 per 100 KD from 13-present 39.8 Their TS% over the same period was 63.2 vs 64.3
There is hardly a gap in scoring at all. KD is a better player, but to act like he's on another level as a scorer is stupid.
That would be unfair on KD, Durant works hard on his game every season and comes back a better player gotta wait for him to have his best years too. Also Dantley's best years are comparable to Durant's more average years, thus again meaning Durant is better than AD in what's considered his specialty, let's be honest here KD is clearly a better player than him and 3ball is a stan.

[3ball]

:roll:

This kid doe...
you're trying to say Vince is better than both Grant Hill and Adrian Dantley?

he's actually nowhere near Grant Hill - Hill was a totally different level of player... at the time, no one would ever have been compared Hill to Vince - do you ever see McGrady or Kobe compared to Vince?.. Of course not, and Hill fit into their class.

[mehyaM24]

:roll:

This kid doe...
penny was better than iverson. ai NEVER had a playoff series averaging 30/7/6 on elite shooting percentages (some poster had a chart of the best individual playoff series' in the 90s, and penny's name popped up), never was ~top 10 in RAPM like penny was, nor play the all-around game penny showed to have early on.

greater =/= better, iverson should be rated greater all time because of accolades and accolades alone.

[Moonbeam]

Flpiii, OWS doesn't account for how a guy's playing style affects the ORtg and OWS of his teammates - i.e. the ORtg and OWS of Dantley's teammates would be different if they played alongside Wilkins instead, and vice versa, so you can't use OWS to evaluate how much supporting help a guy has.

you can really only use OWS to compare how well two players execute the offensive duties they are tasked with, which is actually quite valuable and useful... but that's it.

That's exactly why I looked at a way to try to come up with expected OWS and expected DWS - to see how a guy's play style or presence on the court correlates with the OWS and DWS of teammates. Using both observed and expected Win Shares, Nique's teammates look about 6-7 wins better.

[aj1987]

penny was better than iverson. ai NEVER had a playoff series averaging 30/7/6 on elite shooting percentages (some poster had a chart of the best individual playoff series' in the 90s, and penny's name popped up), never was ~top 10 in RAPM like penny was, nor play the all-around game penny showed to have early on.

greater =/= better, iverson should be rated greater all time because of accolades and accolades alone.
Penny never had a Finals series averaging 36/6/4/2. Penny never scored 48 in a Finals game.

Oh, and AI averaged 31/2/10/2 on 47/41/90 and 35/4/6/2 on 44/37/73. Those are pretty decent percentages considering the volume.

I still can't understand how this is still even a debate. :wtf:


do you ever see McGrady or Kobe compared to Vince?.. Of course not, and Hill fit into their class.
I'm assuming that you started watching basketball a year or two ago.

[Moonbeam]

Might want to check that username bud. That's Moonbeam, who just joined from RealGM, not me. He's a much more patient poster than I could ever be, so maybe you'll have better luck with him. I also don't consider WS (or PER, or any other box score derived measures) when evaluating players.

As I said, I'm done debating with you for the time being. If we can't agree on simple statements, I'm not going to waste my time assembling arguments.

Dude, you're the reason I signed up! If there are posters as good as you here, I thought it would be worth it!

[Moonbeam]

For those who still think AD is better or close to Durant in scoring:
Points Per 100 Possessions first 7 years:
KD:
29.2
33.33
39.4
36.8
37.5
37.6
42.8
This season so far: 41.1

AD:
24.8
26.0
26.6
35.0
35.3
35.2
34.1 (played only 22 games his seventh year)

Dantley's edge in league-relative efficiency means that his best seasons (1983 and 1984) are on par with Durant's in terms of the amount of extra points they are providing per 100 possessions vs. league efficiency. That's what the Score+ metric measures. I'll post full career stats for these guys later.

Edit: Here they are.

For Dantley:



Year Score+
1977 3.718
1978 3.494
1979 2.663
1980 5.715
1981 4.949
1982 5.181
1983 6.696
1984 6.207
1985 3.571
1986 5.377
1987 3.757
1988 4.116
1989 2.216
1990 0.884
1991 -3.434


For Durant:



Year Score+
2008 -1.169
2009 1.894
2010 4.130
2011 2.966
2012 5.073
2013 6.511
2014 6.183


I fully expect Durant to have some even better seasons, and again, I've got him higher on my all-time list already than Dantley due to the rest of his game. However, as a scorer, I don't think Durant has passed Dantley yet.

[mehyaM24]

Penny never had a Finals series averaging 36/6/4/2. Penny never scored 48 in a Finals game.

you do realize iverson damn NEAR shot 39% for the series right? on a horrific 48% TS

2 games of 12/30, and one where he shot 10/29 :facepalm


Oh, and AI averaged 31/2/10/2 on 47/41/90 and 35/4/6/2 on 44/37/73. Those are pretty decent percentages considering the volume.

those are good numbers, but he NEVER provided the defensive versatility penny had. penny had a series where he shot 57% TS, played amazing defense, had great playmaking and scored with the best perimeter players.


I still can't understand how this is still even a debate. :wtf:


I'm assuming that you started watching basketball a year or two ago.

the fact you dont think its debatable makes your statement incredibly ironic. i would be willing to bet you started watching basketball no later than 10 years ago.

[aj1987]

you do realize iverson damn NEAR shot 39% for the series right? on a horrific 48% TS

2 games of 12/30, and one where he shot 10/29 :facepalm
What were LeBron's shooting percentages in '07? He didn't shoot "near" 39%, BTW. If you don't know how rounding works, look it up. Shouldn't be hard to Google.


those are good numbers, but he NEVER provided the defensive versatility penny had. penny had a series where he shot 57% TS, played amazing defense, had great playmaking and scored with the best perimeter players.
Cool story, bro. He still never carried a team to the Finals, won the MVP, led the league 4x in scoring and 3x in steals though.


the fact you dont think its debatable makes your statement incredibly ironic. i would be willing to bet you started watching basketball no later than 10 years ago.
I'm willing to bet that you started watching basketball only to ride LeBum.

While you're looking up how rounding works, please feel free to look up the definition of irony.

I still can't believe that I'm actually defending AI. Anyways, if you actually believe what you're saying, Bird, MJ, Magic, etc. played in an era with much superior guards. Hence, LeBron can never go past them on the all time list.

:cheers:

[mehyaM24]

3ball - do you rate penny at his best > peak tmac & wade?


What were LeBron's shooting percentages in '07? He didn't shoot "near" 39%, BTW. If you don't know how rounding works, look it up. Shouldn't be hard to Google.

Cool story, bro. He still never carried a team to the Finals, won the MVP, led the league 4x in scoring and 3x in steals though.


I'm willing to bet that you started watching basketball only to ride LeBum.

While you're looking up how rounding works, please feel free to look up the definition of irony.

iverson shot 48% TS in the finals, as if anything else needs to be brought to attention - the guy was inefficient as they come.

to make matters worse, he has idiots who didn't even watch the series, such as yourself, claiming that he "carried philadelphia to the finals", when in fact, the sixers were #1 rated defensively and just 13th in offensive rating (dat efficiency). iverson himself wasn't even top 10 in RAPM (which measures strictly INDIVIDUAL impact), much less top 20. try 28, whereas his teammate, dikembe mutombo, was top 10.

you gotta laugh at these myths, perpetuated by casuals. :oldlol:

[juju151111]

What were LeBron's shooting percentages in '07? He didn't shoot "near" 39%, BTW. If you don't know how rounding works, look it up. Shouldn't be hard to Google.


Cool story, bro. He still never carried a team to the Finals, won the MVP, led the league 4x in scoring and 3x in steals though.


I'm willing to bet that you started watching basketball only to ride LeBum.

While you're looking up how rounding works, please feel free to look up the definition of irony.

I still can't believe that I'm actually defending AI. Anyways, if you actually believe what you're saying, Bird, MJ, Magic, etc. played in an era with much superior guards. Hence, LeBron can never go past them on the all time list.

:cheers:
agreed, Iverson was a chucked and the 2001 Sixers defense masked that well.

[mehyaM24]

agreed, Iverson was a chucked and the 2001 Sixers defense masked that well.
?

aj is actually pro iverson, dude.

[aj1987]

?

aj is actually pro iverson, dude.
You might want to check my post history about AI. I absolutely HATE the guy. I don't even have him in my top 50.

Going back to your previous post, remove AI from that team and they'd be the worst offensive team in the league. Would be lucky to win over 20 games.

[3ball]

.
REVISED LIST OF TOP 10 WINGS (SG or SF)


Each era is listed IN ORDER for fair comparison - bolded players are superior



...2000-2014.............1984-1998

Kobe Bryant............. Michael Jordan
LeBron James........... Larry Bird
Dwayne Wade........ Clyde Drexler
Kevin Durant.......... Dominique Wilkins
Tracey McGrady..... Grant Hill
James Harden........ Penny Hardaway
Paul Pierce.............. Scottie Pippen
Carmelo Anthony...... Adrian Dantley
Vince Carter.......... James Worthy
Allen Iverson........... Reggie Miller


HM 1984-1998: Dr. J, Latrell Sprewell, Sidney Moncrief, Mitch Richmond, Joe Dumars, Alvin Robertson, Dennis Johnson, Ronaldo Blackman, Dennis Rodman, Alex English, Chris Mullin, Glen Rice, Kiki Vandeweghe, Mark Aguirre, Glenn Robinson, Jamaal Mashburn, Detlef Schrempf, Reggie Lewis, Fat Lever, Jeff Hornacek, Allan Houston, Eddie Jones, Jeff Malone

HM 2000-2014: Ray Allen, Paul George, Manu Ginobili, Brandon Roy, Joe Johnson, Rip Hamilton, Gilbert Arenas, Ron Artest, Shawn Marion, Michael Redd, Peja Stojakovic, Antawn Jamison, Luol Deng, Rashard Lewis
.

[Kvnzhangyay]

.
REVISED LIST OF TOP 10 WINGS (SG or SF)


Each era is listed IN ORDER for fair comparison - bolded players are superior



...2000-2014.............1984-1998

Kobe Bryant............. Michael Jordan
LeBron James........... Larry Bird
Dwayne Wade........ Clyde Drexler
Kevin Durant.......... Dominique Wilkins
Tracey McGrady..... Grant Hill
James Harden........ Penny Hardaway
Paul Pierce.............. Scottie Pippen
Carmelo Anthony...... Adrian Dantley
Vince Carter.......... James Worthy
Allen Iverson........... Reggie Miller


HM 1984-1998: Dr. J, Latrell Sprewell, Sidney Moncrief, Mitch Richmond, Joe Dumars, Alvin Robertson, Dennis Johnson, Ronaldo Blackman, Dennis Rodman, Alex English, Chris Mullin, Glen Rice, Kiki Vandeweghe, Mark Aguirre, Glenn Robinson, Jamaal Mashburn, Detlef Schrempf, Reggie Lewis, Fat Lever, Jeff Hornacek, Allan Houston, Eddie Jones, Jeff Malone

HM 2000-2014: Ray Allen, Paul George, Manu Ginobili, Brandon Roy, Joe Johnson, Rip Hamilton, Gilbert Arenas, Ron Artest, Shawn Marion, Michael Redd, Peja Stojakovic, Antawn Jamison, Luol Deng, Rashard Lewis
.

Why do you always act like your opinion is the only opinion that matters? Many of these are highly debatable

Also, why arbitrarily choose 1984-1998?

[RightTwoCensor]

http://i.gyazo.com/4ca22338a7de69a45e932101a82dc8f9.png

11 of 19 of these players are from this generation

[RightTwoCensor]

Why do you always act like your opinion is the only opinion that matters? Many of these are highly debatable

Also, why arbitrarily choose 1984-1998?
Real stats aren't debatable. :D

[3ball]

Why do you always act like your opinion is the only opinion that matters? Many of these are highly debatable

Also, why arbitrarily choose 1984-1998?
i'm comparing the wings in Jordan's career (84'-98') to a 14-year period from today (2000-2014).

doing this shows how much deeper the class of wings was in the previous era, particularly the SF's - they blow today's SF's away.

infact, the ENTIRE FRONTCOURT of previous eras blows this era away - this is the weakest era for frontcourts of all time, and it's easy to see.

btw, i think my list was VERY fair... i put vince carter over james worthy... i mean, come ON... i don't even believe it, but i did it because i know people itt will throw a hissy fit.
.

[Kvnzhangyay]

i'm comparing the wings in Jordan's career (84'-98') to a 14-year period from today (2000-2014).

doing this shows how much deeper the class of wings was in the previous era, particularly the SF's - they blow today's SF's away.

infact, the ENTIRE FRONTCOURT of previous eras blows this era away - this is the weakest era for frontcourts of all time, and it's easy to see.

btw, i think my list was VERY fair... i put vince carter over james worthy... i mean, come ON... i don't even believe it, but i did it because i know people itt will throw a hissy fit.
.

Have you ever thought that people threw a hissy fit because you attempt to impose your opinions on other people?

[3ball]

Have you ever thought that people threw a hissy fit because you attempt to impose your opinions on other people?
for the most part, i just present my views and people throw hissy-fits on their own.

it's interesting because the people that have actual counter-arguments to my points, don't throw hissy fits.

the people that DO throw hissy-fits, are the ones that have no argument against my points.

for example, when i say Dantley > Carmelo, posters have no counter-argument (because there is none), so they just say "u don't know what ur talking about", or, "ur crazy", because they have no actual rationale for their view other than them simply wanting to believe it.

[Moonbeam]

http://i.gyazo.com/4ca22338a7de69a45e932101a82dc8f9.png

11 of 19 of these players are from this generation

Look, I don't agree with the premise that today's wings are definitely inferior to those of the 80s and 90s (those times might have an edge, but I wouldn't say it's a chasm), but this graph is a little misleading in that it cuts off some good years from players who were dominant during the 1984-98 timespan. Guys like Dantley, English, Aguirre, Bernard King, etc. had some great seasons prior to that, but their win shares for those seasons aren't included.