Cavs got Smith Shumpert and Mozgov for Waiters. Dellavadova for Cousins and Korver?

[CavaliersFTW]

I think we could use an offensive center in Cousins to add depth to our center rotation, and we could use one more shooter in Kyle Korver. I think we should get them both for Mathew Dellavadova. What do you guys think?

[navy]

LeGM approves.

[JebronLames]

I think we could use an offensive center in Cousins to add depth to our center rotation, and we could use one more shooter in Kyle Korver. I think we should get them both for Mathew Dellavadova. What do you guys think?
Throw in shawn marion

[Bandito]

Better trade threads than Hawkfan's!!!

[Cocaine80s]

*Lebron got Smith Shumpert and Mozgov for Waiters.

[CavaliersFTW]

Throw in shawn marion
I'll throw in Haywood. But that's it. Dellavadova and Haywood otherwise we're giving up too much and not getting enough in return.

[Killbot]

Fair trade. Dellavadova can play for both teams. Kings and Hawks can split the max. Save some of that salary cap space

[Real14]

He needs more help.

[Trollsmasher]

You forgot the pick

That Denver 2nd rounder should be enough:coleman:

[TylerOO]

I was told Shumpert was overrated defensively, JR is a high knucklehead who is gonna ruin the team and Mozgov was a nobody. :roll:

[edrick]

:rolleyes:

Are the haters going to start propping up these dudes if they start playing well again?

[JebronLames]

I was told Shumpert was overrated defensively, JR is a high knucklehead who is gonna ruin the team and Mozgov was a nobody. :roll:
Lebron effect

[CavaliersFTW]

:rolleyes:

Are the haters going to start propping up these dudes if they start playing well again?
Of course not they are bums. LeNeedsmorehelp needs more help.

[edrick]

Of course not they are bums. LeNeedsmorehelp needs more help.

How many teams win without a big or defense? :facepalm

Kobe wouldn't have shit without bigs, same for many other stars.

[Thunderfan86]

Not sure what's going on in here, but it doesn't seem very fair to me.

[Ill Will]

i think you're incredibly delusional to think that the Hawks and Kings would give up Korver and Cousins respectively. come on...

[Kvnzhangyay]

i think you're incredibly delusional to think that the Hawks and Kings would give up Korver and Cousins respectively. come on...

Wait you took the thread literally? :wtf:

[AnaheimLakers24]

Needs more imo

[RedBlackAttack]

I'm just going to put this here...

JR Smith's averages as a starter for the Cavs...

17 points on 46.4% FG, 42.6% 3PT, 59.2% TS
3.3 REB
1.8 STL

:eek:

I'm starting to wonder if we should bring Shump off the bench and keep this thing rolling. :oldlol:

[COnDEMnED]

Better trade threads than Hawkfan's!!!
Not hard to do. I believe you just need an IQ of 3 to grunt.. Hawkfan's posts can't demand more than that.

[Kingwillball]

I'm just going to put this here...

JR Smith's averages as a starter for the Cavs...

17 points on 46.4% FG, 42.6% 3PT, 59.2% TS
3.3 REB
1.8 STL

:eek:

I'm starting to wonder if we should bring Shump off the bench and keep this thing rolling. :oldlol:


I know hopefully Shump coming in won't ruin his mojo luckily they are used to playing together. Wonder if Shump starts right away or they bring him in slowly the first few games off bench ?

[RedBlackAttack]

I know hopefully Shump coming in won't ruin his mojo luckily they are used to playing together. Wonder if Shump starts right away or they bring him in slowly the first few games off bench ?
I would assume he'll come off the bench at first. You want to work him in slowly with the team playing so well.

Speaking of which...


Cavaliers notebook: Iman Shumpert expected to make Cavs debut later this week

By Jason Lloyd
Beacon Journal sports writer

CLEVELAND: Iman Shumpert has been cleared for full practice and is expected to make his Cavaliers debut later this week.

Friday’s home game against the Charlotte Hornets seems most likely, although coach David Blatt didn’t rule out Shumpert at least making an appearance Wednesday against the Utah Jazz.

Shumpert was a limited participant in practice on Sunday as he continues to rehab a dislocated shoulder. He has been cleared for full practice.

“We’re still being careful,” Blatt said. “We’re all anxious to be a full team. We’ve spent some weeks here now sacrificing with intent in order to get our guys healthy and get everybody back and on the same page. But I think and believe that was the right thing to do, and we’re not going to stray from that until everyone is all right.”

When the Cavs first acquired Shumpert, LeBron James compared him to Bulls guard Jimmy Butler. There is a correlation between the two. Both share the same agent (Happy Walters) and the two work out a lot in the summer.

Butler is playing at an All-Star level this season, but Bulls coach Tom Thibodeau also sees similarities in their games.

“I’ve always had a lot of respect for what Shumpert brings — a lot of intensity,” Thibodeau said. “He can guard multiple positions. He’s comfortable offensively making plays. He can handle the ball. He can do a little bit of everything. I thought that was really a good pickup by them.”


http://www.ohio.com/sports/cavs/cavaliers-notebook-iman-shumpert-expected-to-make-cavs-debut-later-this-week-1.559759

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view6/4349776/iman-shumpert-steal-o.gif

[Hotlantadude81]

I was told Shumpert was overrated defensively, JR is a high knucklehead who is gonna ruin the team and Mozgov was a nobody. :roll:

They're a 35 win team without Lebron. At best.

Lebron is the only player on the whole team who is not a career loser.

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

Even though he plays for his team, OP still clowns LeBron nonstop. That's I f*ck with him.

[RedBlackAttack]

They're a 35 win team without Lebron. At best.

Lebron is the only player on the whole team who is not a career loser.
They won 33 games last year while featuring Andrew Bynum for half the season, a guy who is no longer in the league. :oldlol:

You're telling me replacing Andrew Bynum, Earl Clark, Alonzo Gee, Anthony Bennett and Jarrett Jack with Kevin Love, Timofey Mozgov, Iman Shumpert, JR Smith and Shawn Marion only improves the team by 2 wins?

:roll:

Cavs were essentially .500 last year after Bynum was released. Mike Brown was the coach, fyi.

[Hotlantadude81]

They won 33 games last year while featuring Andrew Bynum for half the season, a guy who is no longer in the league. :oldlol:

You're telling me replacing Andrew Bynum, Earl Clark, Alonzo Gee, Anthony Bennett and Jarrett Jack with Kevin Love, Timofey Mozgov, Iman Shumpert, JR Smith and Shawn Marion only improves the team by 2 wins?

:roll:

Cavs were essentially .500 last year after Bynum was released. Mike Brown was the coach, fyi.

They were losing games left and right before Lebron came back. Those guys are career losers. That includes Kevin Love. He is a loser of a player. A stat padder on a bad team. Marion is not any good anymore. JR Smith will have some hot games, but he will shoot you out of games also.

The east is better than it was last season. Miami and Indiana are all the east had last year and Indiana fell apart in the second half of the season. The Wizards and Toronto are both better than they were last year. The Hawks are better. The Bucks are way better. Detroit is coming on strong, and so is Charlotte as of late.

Without Lebron James the Cavs would be bad. It's possible that Detroit and Charlotte would have caught Cleveland had Lebron been gone for a year of time. These three role players were adding nothing to the team they were on before the trade.

[RedBlackAttack]

They were losing games left and right before Lebron came back.
Didn't need to read the rest of your post. You're going to lose games when you're missing 3 and 4 starters. I don't care who you are.

Did you know Matthew Dellavedova was averaging 32 minutes per game in the eight games that LeBron sat out? Tristan Thompson was averaging 36 minutes a game. When the Cavs are at their best, Tristan is playing around 20 minutes and Delly isn't playing... at all.

Also, in that stretch, Kevin Love, Kyrie Irving, Shawn Marion (LeBron's backup) and other key guys missed significant time... and that also just happened to coincide with the team losing Varejao for the season.

Acting as though everything was just fine and dandy, but the team lost LeBron and everything went into a spiral is disingenuous at best. Hell, the Cavs' worst loss of the season -- a total blowout that was over midway through the third quarter -- against Detroit came before LeBron took his brief hiatus and the only guy missing was Kyrie.

It was a very tenuous situation BEFORE LeBron went into LeRehabilitation.

They were throwing together almost complete makeshift lineups prior to the last week or so.

[J Shuttlesworth]

Just some interesting facts about Cavs with and without LeBron on the floor. Not trying to defend that they would be a 35 win team w/o Bron, but these numbers are interesting:

Lebron Out (9 G)

-8.9 SRS, -4.9 Offense, +5.9 Defense

Lebron IN 33 G)

+2.7 SRS, +6.5 Offense, +3.2 Defense

Lebron, Post-rest (4 G)

+7.7 SRS, +13.2 Offense, +6.7 Defense

[RedBlackAttack]

Just some interesting facts about Cavs with and without LeBron on the floor. Not trying to defend that they would be a 35 win team w/o Bron, but these numbers are interesting:

Lebron Out (9 G)

-8.9 SRS, -4.9 Offense, +5.9 Defense

Lebron IN 33 G)

+2.7 SRS, +6.5 Offense, +3.2 Defense

Lebron, Post-rest (4 G)

+7.7 SRS, +13.2 Offense, +6.7 Defense
Again, any team that plays Delly for 32 minutes a night over 8 games is going to look pretty bad statistically.

I'd be curious to see other guys' numbers and how the different lineups compare to one another, because I have a sneaking suspicion that, when healthy, the primary lineups have been good.

Unfortunately, over the last three weeks, we've been holding it together with mostly mud and water. That isn't to say LeBron doesn't have a huge impact. Any idiot knows that. But, there have been a lot of other issues.

[Kingwillball]

Again, any team that plays Delly for 32 minutes a night over 8 games is going to look pretty bad statistically.

I'd be curious to see other guys' numbers and how the different lineups compare to one another, because I have a sneaking suspicion that, when healthy, the primary lineups have been good.

Unfortunately, over the last three weeks, we've been holding it together with mud and water.


All of this is true but I also feel like the team is gaining confidence since Lebron is back especially Irving who is finally starting to play like somebody reminded him he is one of the best young guards in the league. Love still not playing well but seems to be more engaged last few games as well and I think his offense will come around. As it has already been mentioned Smith and Mozgov already paying dividends and if Shump comes back to form and team stays healthy I expect a MUCH better 2nd half of season which can extend into Playoffs.

[Hotlantadude81]

Didn't need to read the rest of your post. You're going to lose games when you're missing 3 and 4 starters. I don't care who you are.

Did you know Matthew Dellavedova was averaging 32 minutes per game in the eight games that LeBron sat out? Tristan Thompson was averaging 36 minutes a game. When the Cavs are at their best, Tristan is playing around 20 minutes and Delly isn't playing... at all.

Also, in that stretch, Kevin Love, Kyrie Irving, Shawn Marion (LeBron's backup) and other key guys missed significant time... and that also just happened to coincide with the team losing Varejao for the season.

Acting as though everything was just fine and dandy, but the team lost LeBron and everything went into a spiral is disingenuous at best. Hell, the Cavs' worst loss of the season -- a total blowout that was over midway through the third quarter -- against Detroit came before LeBron took his brief hiatus and the only guy missing was Kyrie.

It was a very tenuous situation BEFORE LeBron went into LeRehabilitation.

They were throwing together almost complete makeshift lineups prior to the last week or so.

Love missed one game and so did Irving. One of those games were against Philly and the other the Bucks. Beating Philly shouldn't be a problem. Marion is not a good player anymore.

35-42 wins without Lebron at best.

[Kingwillball]

Love missed one game and so did Irving. One of those games were against Philly and the other the Bucks. Beating Philly shouldn't be a problem. Marion is not a good player anymore.


All you need to worry about is the Cavs are starting to find there Groove and they will not be a team to take lightly come playoff time if everyone is healthy.

[RedBlackAttack]

Love missed one game and so did Irving. One of those games were against Philly and the other the Bucks. Beating Philly shouldn't be a problem. Marion is not a good player anymore.
The Cavs played Philly with 4-of-5 starters out and the Bucks are a playoff team. And, when you're talking about a relatively small sample (8 games), 2 of those 8 games missing your other 2 best players is key.

The point about Marion isn't that he's a "good" player. It's that he is LeBron's backup. So, when you're missing your starting SF and his backup, it puts you in a bit of a bind. We basically had no small forward on the roster. So, yeah... that matters.

Again... Delly was playing 32 minutes a night. You can't tell me with a straight face that this is a remotely acceptable figure. And that had nothing to do with LeBron being out.

Lastly, once again... the worst the Cavs have looked all season was a game which Irving missed and LeBron played. If you don't believe me, google the Detroit loss. It was a total embarrassment. Boiling the Cavs' problems down to LeBron sitting out alone is just stupid. I'm sorry, it just is.

[305Baller]

I think we could use an offensive center in Cousins to add depth to our center rotation, and we could use one more shooter in Kyle Korver. I think we should get them both for Mathew Dellavadova. What do you guys think?


Mods...

[Hotlantadude81]

The Cavs played Philly with 4-of-5 starters out and the Bucks are a playoff team. And, when you're talking about a relatively small sample (8 games), 2 of those 8 games missing your other 2 best players is key.

The point about Marion isn't that he's a "good" player. It's that he is LeBron's backup. So, when you're missing your starting SF and his backup, it puts you in a bit of a bind. We basically had no small forward on the roster. So, yeah... that matters.

Again... Delly was playing 32 minutes a night. You can't tell me with a straight face that this is a remotely acceptable figure. And that had nothing to do with LeBron being out.

I still think a Cavs team without Lebron finishes somewhere between 35-42 wins with the number being on the lower end.

They wouldn't be talented enough to beat the top teams and they don't play hard enough to fend off Charlotte and Detroit. Miami would also be better with Whiteside playing major minutes.

Lebron controls the basketball game. Without him you have two scorers that don't play hard on the defensive end and a couple of decent role players.

They might aswell be called The Cleveland Lebrons.

[Hotlantadude81]

All you need to worry about is the Cavs are starting to find there Groove and they will not be a team to take lightly come playoff time if everyone is healthy.

They just gave up 121 points the other night.

[J Shuttlesworth]

One thing to factor in is that the top east teams are significantly better this year opposed to last year. Raptors, Hawks, Bulls, Wizards and even the Bucks are all much better. Last year, the only real threats in the east were the Heat and Pacers in the regular season. I'm not sure that last years cleveland team would be able to get 33 wins this year

[RedBlackAttack]

I still think a Cavs team without Lebron finishes somewhere between 35-42 wins with the number being on the lower end.

They wouldn't be talented enough to beat the top teams and they don't play hard enough to fend off Charlotte and Detroit. Miami would also be better with Whiteside playing major minutes.

Lebron controls the basketball game. Without him you have two scorers that don't play hard on the defensive end and a couple of decent role players.

They might aswell be called The Cleveland Lebrons.
You're being silly.


Here was the Cavs' boxscore against the Sixers two weeks ago:

http://i60.tinypic.com/oa9m5f.jpg

They lost by three points. I'm surprised it was that close.

The Cavs just played a game with this rotation...

PG - Kyrie Irving
SG - JR Smith
SF - LeBron James
PF - Kevin Love
C - Timofey Mozgov

Bench:
Tristan Thompson
Shawn Marion


And, they're still waiting for one of their big pieces to get healthy. Using what happened during that bleak stretch of games as a barometer for... anything... is crazy. Yes, missing the best player in the world hurts.

It also hurts to start Joe Harris, Matthew Dellavedova and Mike Miller.

[Hotlantadude81]

One thing to factor in is that the top east teams are significantly better this year opposed to last year. Raptors, Hawks, Bulls, Wizards and even the Bucks are all much better. Last year, the only real threats in the east were the Heat and Pacers in the regular season. I'm not sure that last years cleveland team would be able to get 33 wins this year

And remember how Indiana fell hard the 2nd half of last year.

Lebron's win share is normally between 15-20 wins. Without him you're left with a bunch of players that mostly play no defense, and almost none of them having winning experience.

[RedBlackAttack]

One thing to factor in is that the top east teams are significantly better this year opposed to last year. Raptors, Hawks, Bulls, Wizards and even the Bucks are all much better. Last year, the only real threats in the east were the Heat and Pacers in the regular season. I'm not sure that last years cleveland team would be able to get 33 wins this year
We're not talking about last year's Cavs team, though. The Cavs were a mess last year. They spent the first 30 games trying to run the offense through Andrew Bynum, per Mike Brown's instructions.

This team features a totally different roster, not including LeBron... and a different coach.

I don't even know why it's important for people to do this, tbh. The whole point of the game is to play well as a unit. The fact that Kyrie plays so well off of LeBron James should be looked at as a positive, not a negative. Not every player in the NBA can flourish playing alongside a high usage superstar. Why do people feel the need to divide the praise for winning?

[Hotlantadude81]

You're being silly.


Here was the Cavs' boxscore against the Sixers two weeks ago:

http://i60.tinypic.com/oa9m5f.jpg

They lost by three points. I'm surprised it was that close.

The Cavs just played a game with this rotation...

PG - Kyrie Irving
SG - JR Smith
SF - LeBron James
PF - Kevin Love
C - Timofey Mozgov

Bench:
Tristan Thompson
Shawn Marion


And, they're still waiting for one of their big pieces to get healthy. Using what happened during that bleak stretch of games as a barometer for... anything... is crazy. Yes, missing the best player in the world hurts.

It also hurts to start Joe Harris, Matthew Dellavedova and Mike Miller.

Ok, they had a tough line up that game...This box score does nothing to go against the post you quote.

However....

What do the Cavs have without Lebron?

You have two scorers that are not good defensive players, and you have a hot and cold Jr Smith who really hasn't made an impact in quite a while. Along with a couple a couple of other role players. You have no leadership on that team, little defense and one passer on the whole team.

Cleveland doesn't have a good team without Lebron. He makes or breaks the Cavs and they would fight for 7th and 8th seed (in the weak east).

I would take Miami, Detroit and maybe Charlotte over a Lebron less Cavs.

[RedBlackAttack]

Ok, they had a tough line up that game...This box score does nothing to go against the post you quote.

However....

What do the Cavs have without Lebron?

You have two scorers that are not good defensive players, and you have a hot and cold Jr Smith who really hasn't made an impact in quite a while. Along with a couple a couple of other role players. You have no leadership on that team, little defense and one passer on the whole team.

Cleveland doesn't have a good team without Lebron. He makes or breaks the Cavs and they would fight for 7th and 8th seed (in the weak east)

I would take Miami, Detroit and maybe Charlotte over a Lebron less Cavs.

Hell, I'm not sure Kevin Love is that much better than a Josh Smith. His poor shooting is mind boggling.
Pointless to speculate what the Cavs would be without LeBron. First of all, the Kevin Love trade never happens, so the roster would feature Andrew Wiggins and Anthony Bennett.

Then factor in that Kyrie is still just 22... Waiters probably isn't traded and he's just 22, too.

You'd still have one of the youngest teams in the NBA. Probably THE youngest team in the league. Young teams tend to lack leadership. So, yeah... but who cares? Things changed the moment he signed on. The roster was immediately transformed. Roles shifted. It's a team game.

Personally, I was happy with the potential future for the Cavs with Kyrie, Wiggins, TT, Waiters and loads of cap space. Now, we're in championship-or-bust mode a few short months later. It's not exactly going out on a limb to point out that LeBron is the reason. However, this team has a lot of talent minus LeBron when healthy. It seems pretty obvious to me.

A lot of it is young, inexperienced talent, but that doesn't mean you're a "career loser." When your career or 1, 2 or even 3 seasons long, it's pretty easy to be a "career loser."

[J Shuttlesworth]

We're not talking about last year's Cavs team, though. The Cavs were a mess last year. They spent the first 30 games trying to run the offense through Andrew Bynum, per Mike Brown's instructions.

This team features a totally different roster, not including LeBron... and a different coach.

I don't even know why it's important for people to do this, tbh. The whole point of the game is to play well as a unit. The fact that Kyrie plays so well off of LeBron James should be looked at as a positive, not a negative. Not every player in the NBA can flourish playing alongside a high usage superstar. Why do people feel the need to divide the praise for winning?

Well you initially started the discussion by saying last years Cavs team was worth 33 wins:


They won 33 games last year while featuring Andrew Bynum for half the season, a guy who is no longer in the league. :oldlol:

You're telling me replacing Andrew Bynum, Earl Clark, Alonzo Gee, Anthony Bennett and Jarrett Jack with Kevin Love, Timofey Mozgov, Iman Shumpert, JR Smith and Shawn Marion only improves the team by 2 wins?

I'm just saying that's an unfair comparison considering the East is much better this year opposed to last year.

This year's Miami Heat is on pace for approximately 37 wins compared to 54 wins last year with LeBron. That's a 17 win difference, and consider that they added Deng, and Whiteside as well.

I know people will flock to the "Heat have injuries this year" argument, but don't forget that the Heat had Wade missing 30ish games last year.

I'm starting to think that hotlantas high 30s win total isn't far off at all. I mean we've seen how bad the Cavs are defensively... particularly Love. We can't expect Blatt do be able to bench Love in the 4th quarter of close games since he wouldn't have a LeBron to rely on.

I know they were 1-8 without LeBron, and you can point to other injuries to compensate for some of those losses... but you have to consider injuries as part of the equation too. Say LeBron tore his ACL and was out for the season from the very beginning... I don't think you can assume that Andy V doesn't tear his ACL, or Love/JR don't have back spasms, or Kyrie doesn't have his issues he was having earlier.

[J Shuttlesworth]

And I'm really not trying to bring this up to diss Love or Irving or anything like that. This team would be worse than the Knicks without Love/Irving/LeBron

[Hotlantadude81]

Pointless to speculate what the Cavs would be without LeBron. First of all, the Kevin Love trade never happens, so the roster would feature Andrew Wiggins and Anthony Bennett.

Then factor in that Kyrie is still just 22... Waiters probably isn't traded and he's just 22, too.

You'd still have one of the youngest teams in the NBA. Probably THE youngest team in the league. Young teams tend to lack leadership. So, yeah... but who cares? Things changed the moment he signed on. The roster was immediately transformed. Roles shifted. It's a team game.

Personally, I was happy with the potential future for the Cavs with Kyrie, Wiggins, TT, Waiters and loads of cap space. Now, we're in championship-or-bust mode a few short months later. It's not exactly going out on a limb to point out that LeBron is the reason. However, this team has a lot of talent minus LeBron when healthy. It seems pretty obvious to me.

A lot of it is young, inexperienced talent, but that doesn't mean you're a "career loser." When your career or 1, 2 or even 3 seasons long, it's pretty easy to be a "career loser."

I'm just saying that the team (as it currently is) might aswell be called The Cleveland Lebrons because that's basically what they are.

But it is....

Personally, I want to see The Cavs fail because of the hype and for team basketball. It was great to see team ball win in the finals last year.

[RedBlackAttack]

Well you initially started the discussion by saying last years Cavs team was worth 33 wins:

That's because hotlanta initially said that the Cavs without LeBron would "win 35 games at the most." At that point, it was prudent to bring up the fact that they won 33 last year with a clearly inferior roster and a coach who... well, you know.

He later amended that figure to 35-45.

Let's also not lose sight of this fact, if you want to point to the Cavs' subpar defense so far this year as an indicator of what things would look like without LeBron... James has been awful defensively for much of the season himself.

He looked mediocre offensively prior to his rest/rehab, but the most striking dropoff was defensively. He looked both ill-equipped and uninterested in playing on that end.

Again, putting that on everyone else seems like it's cherry-picking to make him look good and everyone else look bad. He was very clearly a part of the problem.

Mozgov has made the defense noticeably better. I think that would happen with or without LeBron, but it obviously helps to have him when he is locked in and actually trying. Then we have Shumpert coming back this week.

Those guys have changed the entire philosophy that Blatt has employed defensively.

Jason Lloyd's final thoughts from tonight's game:

[QUOTE]1. One of the changes the Cavs made since the acquisition of Timofey Mozgov is the way they defend pick-and-rolls, particularly side pick-and-rolls. Previously that entailed a lot of activity for the bigs, but now the Cavs are sort of funneling the play toward the help.

2. That

[RedBlackAttack]

I'm just saying that the team (as it currently is) might aswell be called The Cleveland Lebrons because that's basically what they are.

But it is....

Personally, I want to see The Cavs fail because of the hype and for team basketball. It was great to see team ball win in the finals last year.
And I'm just saying I think that's silly.

I was all for the Spurs winning it last year. That was beautiful basketball. But, it is made possible by very good individual talent. Atlanta is running a similar system. If Horford and Millsap and Teague and Korver weren't as good as they are at what they do, that offense wouldn't be effective.

Individual talent always comes into play regardless of the offense you employ. And, the Cavs have more individual talent than just LeBron James. All of the parts haven't even played together yet and the "Big Three" haven't even had a healthy 40 games together to work out the kinks. I think people expected an awful lot awfully early.

[Hotlantadude81]

[QUOTE]4. The Hawks have Al Horford, the Wizards have Marcin Gortat, the Raptors have Jonas Valanciunas and the Bulls have Gasol. All four teams are higher in the East than the Cavs and they

[J Shuttlesworth]

Let's also not lose sight of this fact, if you want to point to the Cavs' subpar defense so far this year as an indicator of what things would look like without LeBron... James has been awful defensively for much of the season himself.

He looked mediocre offensively prior to his rest/rehab, but the most striking dropoff was defensively. He looked both ill-equipped and uninterested in playing on that end.

Again, putting that on everyone else seems like it's cherry-picking to make him look good and everyone else look bad. He was very clearly a part of the problem.

Now I'm not disagreeing that Mozgov makes a huge impact on defense. He has the highest rated DRAPM of anyone on the Cavs and definitely makes a huge difference... but like you pointed out, no LeBron means more minutes for guys like Delly, Harris, Miller, etc... You only get Smith/Mozgov/Shumpert for about half the season, so who knows what the Cavs record would look like right now without LeBron during the first half of the season.

And I really wouldn't say LeBron has been terrible defensively this season. In comparison to previous seasons of his? Sure, he has looked worse out there, but largely due to injuries. His defense has been solid the last 4 games, and please don't cherry pick individual vine videos to try to prove otherwise on this. The stats back this up too. I cant find the individual stat right now but it was on RGM showing that Cavs defense is significantly worse with LeBron off the floor... and I'm taking about games in which LeBron DOES play, but just how much their defense dips when LeBron is on the bench.

Even though LeBron has looked worse on defense, he's still the 3rd highest rated defensive real plus minus on the team with Mozgov and Varejao being the only ones ahead of him. Losing LeBron would be losing the teams best perimeter defender

[Hotlantadude81]

And I'm just saying I think that's silly.

I was all for the Spurs winning it last year. That was beautiful basketball. But, it is made possible by very good individual talent. Atlanta is running a similar system. If Horford and Millsap and Teague and Korver weren't as good as they are at what they do, that offense wouldn't be effective.

Individual talent always comes into play regardless of the offense you employ. And, the Cavs have more individual talent than just LeBron James. All of the parts haven't even played together yet and the "Big Three" haven't even had a healthy 40 games together to work out the kinks. I think people expected an awful lot awfully early.

But those guys are no superstars and The Spurs big three are all past their primes.

If the Hawks win it will be a team effort.... Did you know that no Hawk has scored 30 points in a game this year? If they win in the playoffs it will be because they play as a team largely.... If Cleveland wins in the playoffs it will be because Lebron James and Irving take them there with explosive games.

Hell, Lebron has been dropping 30+ points in every game since has been back.

In a close game the Hawks are going to move the ball to find the best shot and Lebron James or Irving are going to try and take over.

[jongib369]

i think you're incredibly delusional to think that the Hawks and Kings would give up Korver and Cousins respectively. come on...
The trade works every time in 2k15. :confusedshrug:

And I've simulated calling them at least a thousand times

[RedBlackAttack]

But those guys are no superstars and The Spurs big three are all past their primes.

If the Hawks win it will be a team effort.... Did you know that no Hawk has scored 30 points in a game this year? If they win in the playoffs it will be because they play as a team largely.... If Cleveland wins in the playoffs it will be because Lebron James and Irving take them there with explosive games.

Hell, Lebron has been dropping 30+ points in every game since has been back.

In a close game the Hawks are going to move the ball to find the best shot and Lebron James or Irving are going to try and take over.
A couple of things come to mind when reading your post comparing the situation in Atlanta with that in Cleveland. First, the roster is filled with guys who have experience playing with one another that has spanned the last couple seasons at least for Horford, Millsap and Korver and longer for Teague and Horford.

The Cavs, meanwhile, have four new starters this year including two who were just added in the past week. One hasn't even played a game yet. The only guys in our current rotation who had really any experience playing together prior to this season were Kyrie and Tristan... who also happen to be the two youngest players in our rotation.

Then, you have Blatt in his first season with all these new faces compared to Budenholzer who has had a season to get his guys on the same page. I think we'd both agree that even before Horford went down for the season with the torn pec (happened against the Cavs btw), they didn't look close to as good as they do now, with a full season running that system under their belt.

It's comparing apples and oranges. All the statistic about the Hawks not having a guy score 30 this season tells me is that they're doing an incredible job running that system. Horford, Millsap and Teague are good enough individual talents to score 30 points in multiple games a season.

The other thing is, LeBron James is a unique talent. I'm all for this team developing an efficient, ball jumping Spurs-like offensive attack, but I'm not sure running that kind of system full-time would totally utilize his talents. More to the point, I don't think he would buy into a mutual distribution offense like that.

We have two guys who are amazing one-on-one players. I think you need to create an offense which keeps the defense on its heels and guessing, but also exploits those rare talents.

Offense hasn't really been the problem anyway, but I do think you need to give a team a little more time together in a brand new system before making definitive statements about the system and how good they are as a group and as individuals.

[Hotlantadude81]

A couple of things come to mind when reading your post comparing the situation in Atlanta with that in Cleveland. First, the roster is filled with guys who have experience playing with one another that has spanned the last couple seasons at least for Horford, Millsap and Korver and longer for Teague and Horford.

The Cavs, meanwhile, have four new starters this year including two who were just added in the past week. One hasn't even played a game yet. The only guys in our current rotation who had really any experience playing together prior to this season were Kyrie and Tristan... who also happen to be the two youngest players in our rotation.

Then, you have Blatt in his first season with all these new faces compared to Budenholzer who has had a season to get his guys on the same page. I think we'd both agree that even before Horford went down for the season with the torn pec (happened against the Cavs btw), they didn't look close to as good as they do now, with a full season running that system under their belt.

It's comparing apples and oranges. All the statistic about the Hawks not having a guy score 30 this season tells me is that they're doing an incredible job running that system. Horford, Millsap and Teague are good enough individual talents to score 30 points in multiple games a season.

The other thing is, LeBron James is a unique talent. I'm all for this team developing an efficient, ball jumping Spurs-like offensive attack, but I'm not sure running that kind of system full-time would totally utilize his talents. More to the point, I don't think he would buy into a mutual distribution offense like that.

We have two guys who are amazing one-on-one players. I think you need to create an offense which keeps the defense on its heels and guessing, but also exploits those rare talents.

Offense hasn't really been the problem anyway, but I do think you need to give a team a little more time together in a brand new system before making definitive statements about the system and how good they are as a group and as individuals.

I hear things... I hear that Cleveland often does not run Blatt's plays and Lebron basically runs the team. This is not how teams are ran. Lebron controls the franchise from top to bottom basically. The crazy thing is that despite all of the drama, you have a chance as long as you have Lebron James.

It's tough to know where the Hawks would be at if Horford had not got hurt last year. Yeah, they were 16-13 at the time, but this years Hawks were 7-6 at one time. It's tough to know how many games they would have won. I don't think it would be anything like this year because they did not have the depth or even a real backup PG last season. Thabo and Bazemore have made a big difference. Their numbers are modest, but they've made a larger impact than the stats suggest. Thabo has played extremely well since early December and Bazemore has made an impact on the defensive end. These two are making a bigger impact than Loul Deng would be making.

But the thing is... You look up and down the roster and everyone is a team player. That's what guys like Millsap, Thabo, Horford, Korver and Carroll have been known for. Do we know this to be true for guys like Kevin Love, JR Smith, Irving and others?

The players here respect the coach, but do the Cavs players respect Blatt? Does Lebron James even respect Blatt? It does not seem like it. The players here listen to the coach and they've changed their game. Just think about Kyle Korver.... People remember that photo where he is cowering while getting dunked on. That would not happen to him now. That Kyle Korver would not reject Roy Hibbert twice in a playoff game.

I mean, the Cavs will likely build some chemistry just by playing together for a while. That much is true... But at the end of the day it would come down to Lebron/Irving's play-making skills vs. the Hawks hustle and team ball movement if the two teams met.

Basically, it seems to me that Lebron James is the system.