Cleveland has had 5 lottery picks since 2010

[sammichoffate]

Three of them were #1 overall-Wiggins, Bennett, Irving
Two of them were #4- Waiters and Thompson

I'm sorry, but for ****'s sake :biggums:

[SugarHill]

They tried to OKC their way to a contender and failed

[Lexington Steel]

Rigged the shit out of the league and still managed to somehow fail (this year still remains to be seen).

Not looking good.

[buddha]

karma

[Doranku]

And they still suck #ClevelandSports

[SamuraiSWISH]

Karma for Bron doing them dirty.

[MP.Trey]

And we gave up on most of them before they really even got a chance.

[Patrick Chewing]

Still need more talent. Need Carmelo and Wade and Durant.

[russwest0]

If I were them I would have drafted Irving, Oladipo, Valancuinas, Barnes, and Wiggins.

Just the guys I had as my BPA for their picks

[SamuraiSWISH]

And we gave up on most of them before they really even got a chance.
Dude ... due to said high lottery picks your team has:

4x MVP the hometown Benedict Arnold
6th Man of the Year
2x All Star PG
And the best offensive statistical PF

Plus a defensive lock down young stud in Iman Shumpert. All PROVEN legit NBA talents.

Do not ...

Do not complain

[RedBlackAttack]

Funny how this is being presented. The #1 pick in the 2011 Draft which turned into Kyrie Irving was obtained in a trade with the Clippers. That wasn't even the Cavaliers' own pick. So, in essence, we got Kyrie Irving for Jamario Moon and one year of paying Baron Davis' contract (he was later amnestied). Any other franchise is crowned as genius for pulling off a deal like that. If the Lakers had done it, we'd never hear the end of it.

Instead, in a warped reality where the past changes based on the narrative people like the most, things like good moves made and salary cap cleared is forgotten. Sort of like the way people just assume the Cavs refused to include JJ Hickson in a trade for Amare Stoudemire when the exact opposite is actually true. But, people like criticizing the Cavaliers so they've just decided to go with the story that will allow them to do so.

The truth is, what the Cavs did over the last four years has led them to the roster today... one of the most talent laden in the league. Without the trades, draft picks, cap flexibility, etc., they don't have LeBron James, Kevin Love, Kyrie Irving, Tristan Thompson, Iman Shumpert, Timofey Mozgov, etc.

Any other franchise would be praised. This one gets criticized... bizarrely.

[DMAVS41]

Funny how this is being presented. The #1 pick in the 2011 Draft which turned into Kyrie Irving was obtained in a trade with the Clippers. That wasn't even the Cavaliers' own pick. So, in essence, we got Kyrie Irving for Jamario Moon and one year of paying Baron Davis' contract (he was later amnestied). Any other franchise is crowned as genius for pulling off a deal like that. If the Lakers had done it, we'd never hear the end of it.

Instead, in a warped reality where the past changes based on the narrative people like the most, things like good moves made and salary cap cleared is forgotten. Sort of like the way people just assume the Cavs refused to include JJ Hickson in a trade for Amare Stoudemire when the exact opposite is actually true. But, people like criticizing the Cavaliers so they've just decided to go with the story that will allow them to do so.

The truth is, what the Cavs did over the last four years has led them to the roster today... one of the most talent laden in the league. Without the trades, draft picks, cap flexibility, etc., they don't have LeBron James, Kevin Love, Kyrie Irving, Tristan Thompson, Iman Shumpert, Timofey Mozgov, etc.

Any other franchise would be praised. This one gets criticized... bizarrely.

Yea. I agree with this.

I think they do deserve a lot of criticism in other areas though, but love their recent moves.

Love the Mozgov addition and absolutely love the move to get rid of Waiters (fine player, but just didn't fit and they don't need to worry about paying him).

But, like you and I have talked about...that Love trade was way too much. I was absolutely in favor of it, but to give up back to back #1 picks and another first rounder and not get back Dieng. It still just shocks me. And again...I thought they should have traded for Love, but to give up that much for one of the most unproven players in the league...just floors me still.

I know you really like Thompson, but it seems to me that they'd be better off without him. Unless he's going to give them a nice discount this offseason. I just don't like playing him and Love together (especially in the playoffs)...and unless Love is relegated to 30 minutes per game...I just don't see the Cavs getting a good return on Thompson for the money.

[NugzFan]

Wait what? Am I reading this right or do cavs fans want their FO to be credited for building a team that was due to all luck?

[Doranku]

Wait what? Am I reading this right or do cavs fans want their FO to be credited for building a team that was due to all luck?

Don't forget lots and lots of losing.

[AnaheimLakers24]

Nba and espn planned this all along fir ratings

[MP.Trey]

Dude ... due to said high lottery picks your team has:

4x MVP the hometown Benedict Arnold
6th Man of the Year
2x All Star PG
And the best offensive statistical PF

Plus a defensive lock down young stud in Iman Shumpert. All PROVEN legit NBA talents.

Do not ...

Do not complain
Don't get me wrong. The roster turnaround is great, contending is always better than the lottery but most of it was gifted via LeBron's return. It just doesn't feel as authentic as building through the draft and watching the young guys come into their own. Also as a Canadian Cavs fan I really wanted to see Wiggins, Bennett and Thompson, three Canadians, together on the Cavs.

[DukeDelonte13]

And they turned those picks into Lebron, Love, Irving, with Tristan, Mozgov, and Shump rounding it out.


Not bad at all.

[RedBlackAttack]

Yea. I agree with this.

I think they do deserve a lot of criticism in other areas though, but love their recent moves.

Love the Mozgov addition and absolutely love the move to get rid of Waiters (fine player, but just didn't fit and they don't need to worry about paying him).

But, like you and I have talked about...that Love trade was way too much. I was absolutely in favor of it, but to give up back to back #1 picks and another first rounder and not get back Dieng. It still just shocks me. And again...I thought they should have traded for Love, but to give up that much for one of the most unproven players in the league...just floors me still.

I know you really like Thompson, but it seems to me that they'd be better off without him. Unless he's going to give them a nice discount this offseason. I just don't like playing him and Love together (especially in the playoffs)...and unless Love is relegated to 30 minutes per game...I just don't see the Cavs getting a good return on Thompson for the money.
I've had my individual issues with some of these moves. I think they were too aggressive in trying to land Love and should have let things play out. Had they been a little more patient, they could have gotten more in return or maybe not had to give up so much, as we both discussed at great length.

But, it's a little hard for me to sit here and complain about what the Cavs have done the last year or the last four years, really.

I was a fan of Waiters, but that was a brilliant move, imo, and helped make up for the impatience with Love. The team went from a pretender to a legitimate contender with that move and once all of the pieces are in the fold and comfortable, the way I see it.

And, they did it by giving up Waiters and a mediocre draft pick. That was an A+ move, especially considering that, while I was high on Waiters' potential, the majority of the league didn't necessarily see him that way. Thibs spoke out the other day about how surprised he was that the Knicks got so little for Iman Shumpert. He and Mozgov were exactly what this team needed and that doesn't even consider how well JR Smith has fit in so far.

They even managed to hold onto some assets, like Haywood's contract and their own picks. The perfect move at the right time.

As for Thompson, it really doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things how much he is paid, at least not in terms of what the Cavs are able to do personnel-wise. Gilbert could totally overpay TT or let him go, and the Cavs are going to be way over the cap and not able to be players in the FA market.

It all basically comes down to how much Gilbert wants to go over the cap and how much of a luxury tax he's willing to endure. That really doesn't impact the fans at all... just his wallet.

Thompson will be re-signed and he will likely be way overpaid. This isn't just a player situation. It involves LeBron, whose LRMR marketing company represents Thompson. And, TT is a very useful player on this team. You bring up not wanting to have him and Love on the floor at the same time... Statistically, they were far more productive together than the Love/Varejao combination.

Love and TT actually fit together really well. TT does a lot of the dirty work... the things that Love shies away from, and he doesn't get in Love's way much offensively. Varejao was so good with Kyrie and LeBron with his screen and roll/pop action, he'd often get a lot of the looks that might otherwise go to Love.

We'll see how Mozgov changes the dynamic, but TT is likely here to stay.



Wait what? Am I reading this right or do cavs fans want their FO to be credited for building a team that was due to all luck?

Actually, all that I said was that the Cavs' FO shouldn't be criticized. But, yeah... they do deserve credit for creating a situation conducive to what has happened here in the last year or so.

You could apply the "luck" tag to every team in the league. OKC was "lucky" they had the 2nd pick instead of the 1st pick or they'd probably have Oden instead of Durant. They're also lucky Portland thought Oden was the next great bigman. Sometimes, not having to make the decision ends up being the better position.

Miami is "lucky" Detroit and the rest of the league thought Darko was going to be the second best player in that draft. Otherwise, they're left with Chris Kaman or Kirk Hinrich instead of Dwyane Wade. Then they were "lucky" LeBron was buddies with Wade and Bosh.

The Bulls are "lucky" Portland thought they needed Sam Bowie more than Michael Jordan.

The Spurs are "lucky" they hit the draft lottery in drafts with two all-timers at the top of the board and not in drafts where the best talent was Michael Olowokandi.

The franchises with most success help create their own luck. The Cavs did so in 2011 by acquiring an additional unprotected lottery pick aside from their own. That's how they got Kyrie Irving, not simply by sucking.


But, no... No one is saying you have to go out of your way to praise the Cavs. Just that it is stupid to criticize what they've done.

[NugzFan]

First the cavs "luck" is far greater than every other team. Second, despite everything going right for them and the greatest player alive being born kinda near where the cavs play home games, the FO has someone managed to not create a top team. Barely average.

Very criticism worthy.

[DMAVS41]

I've had my individual issues with some of these moves. I think they were too aggressive in trying to land Love and should have let things play out. Had they been a little more patient, they could have gotten more in return or maybe not had to give up so much, as we both discussed at great length.

But, it's a little hard for me to sit here and complain about what the Cavs have done the last year or the last four years, really.

I was a fan of Waiters, but that was a brilliant move, imo, and helped make up for the impatience with Love. The team went from a pretender to a legitimate contender with that move and once all of the pieces are in the fold and comfortable, the way I see it.

And, they did it by giving up Waiters and a mediocre draft pick. That was an A+ move, especially considering that, while I was high on Waiters' potential, the majority of the league didn't necessarily see him that way. Thibs spoke out the other day about how surprised he was that the Knicks got so little for Iman Shumpert. He and Mozgov were exactly what this team needed and that doesn't even consider how well JR Smith has fit in so far.

They even managed to hold onto some assets, like Haywood's contract and their own picks. The perfect move at the right time.

As for Thompson, it really doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things how much he is paid, at least not in terms of what the Cavs are able to do personnel-wise. Gilbert could totally overpay TT or let him go, and the Cavs are going to be way over the cap and not able to be players in the FA market.

It all basically comes down to how much Gilbert wants to go over the cap and how much of a luxury tax he's willing to endure. That really doesn't impact the fans at all... just his wallet.

Thompson will be re-signed and he will likely be way overpaid. This isn't just a player situation. It involves LeBron, whose LRMR marketing company represents Thompson. And, TT is a very useful player on this team. You bring up not wanting to have him and Love on the floor at the same time... Statistically, they were far more productive together than the Love/Varejao combination.

Love and TT actually fit together really well. TT does a lot of the dirty work... the things that Love shies away from, and he doesn't get in Love's way much offensively. Varejao was so good with Kyrie and LeBron with his screen and roll/pop action, he'd often get a lot of the looks that might otherwise go to Love.

We'll see how Mozgov changes the dynamic, but TT is likely here to stay.




Actually, all that I said was that the Cavs' FO shouldn't be criticized. But, yeah... they do deserve credit for creating a situation conducive to what has happened here in the last year or so.

You could apply the "luck" tag to every team in the league. OKC was "lucky" they had the 2nd pick instead of the 1st pick or they'd probably have Oden instead of Durant. They're also lucky Portland thought Oden was the next great bigman. Sometimes, not having to make the decision ends up being the better position.

Miami is "lucky" Detroit and the rest of the league thought Darko was going to be the second best player in that draft. Otherwise, they're left with Chris Kaman or Kirk Hinrich instead of Dwyane Wade. Then they were "lucky" LeBron was buddies with Wade and Bosh.

The Bulls are "lucky" Portland thought they needed Sam Bowie more than Michael Jordan.

The Spurs are "lucky" they hit the draft lottery in drafts with two all-timers at the top of the board and not in drafts where the best talent was Michael Olowokandi.

The franchises with most success help create their own luck. The Cavs did so in 2011 by acquiring an additional unprotected lottery pick aside from their own. That's how they got Kyrie Irving, not simply by sucking.


But, no... No one is saying you have to go out of your way to praise the Cavs. Just that it is stupid to criticize what they've done.


Yea...I know about all the off court stuff with TT. I was just thinking they could potentially net something in return for him that is a better fit for this team.

Still gonna need another center imo...and a trade with Thompson and or the Haywood contract this summer or now and filler seems the best way to find a guy like that.

Before all this shit with larry sanders...I thought he and Middelton would be great fits on the Cavs. Now it's probably not worth the risk.

I just really wish the Cavs had gotten Dieng back in that trade at least. He'd help you guys so much both now and long into the future.

But the real move, like you said, was Waiters. He had to go. And they got a great return for him imo. Shumpert, in theory, is a great fit and JR Smith as a "hot or not" guy seems to be a good fit next to Lebron.

[DukeDelonte13]

First the cavs "luck" is far greater than every other team. Second, despite everything going right for them and the greatest player alive being born kinda near where the cavs play home games, the FO has someone managed to not create a top team. Barely average.

Very criticism worthy.


WTF have the nuggets done in the league? (or any other team that hasn't won a championship?)

C'mon. On ISH no chip = terrible franchise in a league that has had the fewest amount of different teams win championships.

[IGOTGAME]

not drafting Jonas was a big mistake. Guys like him don't grow on trees and Thompson isn't a starter. Trading away Wiggins was also a poor move, especially when Love and Bron are on loaner deals. Cavs are suckers in my book.

[DMAVS41]

not drafting Jonas was a big mistake. Guys like him don't grow on trees and Thompson isn't a starter. Trading away Wiggins was also a poor move, especially when Love and Bron are on loner deals. Cavs are suckers in my book.

No doubt...if Love leaves this is going to be hilarious in the worst way possible.

Not only did the overpay for him, but nothing more than his word he's coming back? Ugh...I really hope it doesn't happen. Cavs fans have been burned far too many times already.

[DukeDelonte13]

not drafting Jonas was a big mistake. Guys like him don't grow on trees and Thompson isn't a starter. Trading away Wiggins was also a poor move, especially when Love and Bron are on loaner deals. Cavs are suckers in my book.

Jonas is a terrible defender who doesn't even play in the 4th quarter. Cavs didn't want to wait a year for him to come over either.


People rip the cavs but nobody says sh*t about:

Derrick Williams
Thomas Robinson
Enes Kanter
Cody Zeller
MKG
Otto Porter
Jan Vesely

[IGOTGAME]

Jonas is a terrible defender who doesn't even play in the 4th quarter. Cavs didn't want to wait a year for him to come over either.


People rip the cavs but nobody says sh*t about:

Derrick Williams
Thomas Robinson
Enes Kanter
Cody Zeller
MKG
Otto Porter
Jan Vesely

Jonas is better than Thompson and plays center and still has tons of upside.

People do rip Minny for Derrick Williams, its just that now that you have Lebron you have more of a spotlight. To be fair, I've been pretty vocal about this Jonas thing from day 1. I didnt see the upside in Tristan and I still don't.

[Doranku]

Jonas is a terrible defender who doesn't even play in the 4th quarter. Cavs didn't want to wait a year for him to come over either.


People rip the cavs but nobody says sh*t about:

Derrick Williams
Thomas Robinson
Enes Kanter
Cody Zeller
MKG
Otto Porter
Jan Vesely

Sounds familiar.....

[DukeDelonte13]

Jonas is better than Thompson and plays center and still has tons of upside.

People do rip Minny for Derrick Williams, its just that now that you have Lebron you have more of a spotlight. To be fair, I've been pretty vocal about this Jonas thing from day 1. I didnt see the upside in Tristan and I still don't.

Jonas Christ Superstar. He's not that good. TT is a better rebounder and can defend. Jonas does play a position where it's harder to find good players, no denying that.

If Jonas was a good player he'd be closing out games. He gets yanked for a reason. He's a liability.

[NugzFan]

WTF have the nuggets done in the league? (or any other team that hasn't won a championship?)

C'mon. On ISH no chip = terrible franchise in a league that has had the fewest amount of different teams win championships.

If you'd like to change the subject, that's fine. Perhaps start a threa titled "what have the nuggets done in the league?" And I will be the first to reply "nothing"

But if you'd like to stay on topic then it's still "how did the cavs FO screw this up so badly despite being gifted annual number one picks and the greatest player on earth??"

[IGOTGAME]

Jonas Christ Superstar. He's not that good. TT is a better rebounder and can defend. Jonas does play a position where it's harder to find good players, no denying that.

If Jonas was a good player he'd be closing out games. He gets yanked for a reason. He's a liability.

which makes him more valuable to a basketball team. Jonas is also a better player than Thompson.

I haven't watched enough of Jonas this year to competantly talk about why he isn't closing games(been watching Lakers and TWolves). I have seen enough of both players careers to see that one player is a starter on a good team and one player will never be a starter on a good team. If Tristan is starting on your team you need to be looking to improve that position.

Tristan is a 5 stuck in a 4s body. A true blue collar player that is great off the bench for energy. Jonas is a starting big that will give you a double double every night and can give you 20 in a playoff game atmosphere based on his versatile offensive game.

[DukeDelonte13]

If you'd like to change the subject, that's fine. Perhaps start a threa titled "what have the nuggets done in the league?" And I will be the first to reply "nothing"

But if you'd like to stay on topic then it's still "how did the cavs FO screw this up so badly despite being gifted annual number one picks and the greatest player on earth??"



I don't see what they screwed up. Lebron left. They acquired picks and players. They used picks and players to build the team they have now. It's only halfway through the season.

[DukeDelonte13]

which makes him more valuable to a basketball team. Jonas is also a better player than Thompson.

I haven't watched enough of Jonas this year to competantly talk about why he isn't closing games(been watching Lakers and TWolves). I have seen enough of both players careers to see that one player is a starter on a good team and one player will never be a starter on a good team. If Tristan is starting on your team you need to be looking to improve that position.

Tristan is a 5 stuck in a 4s body. A true blue collar player that is great off the bench for energy. Jonas is a starting big that will give you a double double every night and can give you 20 in a playoff game atmosphere based on his versatile offensive game.



I'm not saying Jonas sucks, i'm just saying he's not some perennial all-star that the cavs are losing sleep over because they passed on him. He's allright. TT is allright.

[RedBlackAttack]

Jonas is better than Thompson and plays center and still has tons of upside.

People do rip Minny for Derrick Williams, its just that now that you have Lebron you have more of a spotlight. To be fair, I've been pretty vocal about this Jonas thing from day 1. I didnt see the upside in Tristan and I still don't.
If Jonas is that much better than Tristan that not taking him was a "huge" mistake, he has not shown it thus far in his professional career. I wanted Valanciunas at that 4 spot in that draft, but he has been more potential than production so far.

Tristan does a lot of things for this team right now and we have Mozgov playing center. Val is hardly some kind of missing ingredient right now. I'm not sure this team is any better if you take Tristan off and replace him with Jonas. He'd still be the third big in the rotation. You usually prefer that to be a motor/energy guy.

[SamuraiSWISH]

The Waiters for JR Smith / Shumpert deal is INCREDIBLY underrated. Brillaint move. Both of them provide just exact what Cleveland needs, and are better chemistry fits. Way better deal than Wiggins for K. Love. Those guys are players in the league.

[RedBlackAttack]

Midseason report card by The National Post:


Jonas Valanciunas, centre
40 games, 12.6 PPG, 8.5 RPG, 55% FG, 20.4 PER
B-minus
Two major holes in Valanciunas’s game continue to linger: his inability to recognize a double team on offence and his defensive instincts. Valanciunas’s rebounding and touch are getting better, which means improving on his weaknesses could raise the Raptors’ ceiling tremendously in both the short- and long-term.
http://news.nationalpost.com/2015/01/21/toronto-raptors-mid-season-report-card-kyle-lowry-shines-while-holes-in-jonas-valanciunass-game-remain/

...sounds like the kind of player that we don't need.

[IGOTGAME]

If Jonas is that much better than Tristan that not taking him was a "huge" mistake, he has not shown it thus far in his professional career. I wanted Valanciunas at that 4 spot in that draft, but he has been more potential than production so far.

Tristan does a lot of things for this team right now and we have Mozgov playing center. Val is hardly some kind of missing ingredient right now. I'm not sure this team is any better if you take Tristan off and replace him with Jonas. He'd still be the third big in the rotation. You usually prefer that to be a motor/energy guy.

Jonas starts on the Cavs. I don't know where you get this third big thing from. And its actual value to a team both as a player and a trading chip(If you ever needed to consider it). If you don't think Jonas is a lot better than Thompson than I can't have the convo with you. One is a generic garbarge man that is undersized for his play style. The other is suited to succeed in playoff basketball.

[IGOTGAME]

Midseason report card by The National Post:


http://news.nationalpost.com/2015/01/21/toronto-raptors-mid-season-report-card-kyle-lowry-shines-while-holes-in-jonas-valanciunass-game-remain/

...sounds like the kind of player that we don't need.

Jonas never had issues with touch, makes me question the rest of it. Oddly enough, the fact that you dont think you need a 7 footer that draws double teams on the block and has great hands is odd.

Regardless of current fit, the decision to draft Thompson over Jonas was done years ago and the roster would likely be different if they went with Jonas. The Cavs had a great opportunity over the years with these picks and lacked foresight with a couple of them. A better franchise would have done better here. I stand by that.

[RedBlackAttack]

Jonas starts on the Cavs. I don't know where you get this third big thing from. And its actual value to a team both as a player and a trading chip(If you ever needed to consider it). If you don't think Jonas is a lot better than Thompson than I can't have the convo with you. One is a generic garbarge man that is undersized for his play style. The other is suited to succeed in playoff basketball.
Once again, if he's so much better, he hasn't shown it. And, there's no way in hell that Valanciunas starts over Mozgov. The Cavs need rim protection from that position, first and foremost. One of the biggest criticisms of Jonas by people who actually watch the Raptors are his "defensive instincts."

He'd be the third big in the rotation, as I said.

Also as I said, if he's so much better than TT, he hasn't shown it thus far in his career. He has been a career 10/8 guy. And, he was that same guy in the playoffs last year.

[RedBlackAttack]

Jonas never had issues with touch, makes me question the rest of it. Oddly enough, the fact that you dont think you need a 7 footer that draws double teams on the block and has great hands is odd.

Regardless of current fit, the decision to draft Thompson over Jonas was done years ago and the roster would likely be different if they went with Jonas. The Cavs had a great opportunity over the years with these picks and lacked foresight with a couple of them. A better franchise would have done better here. I stand by that.
If the decision to take TT over Jonas is the Cavs' biggest mistake, I'll take it. Jonas has been OK. Nothing special.

[IGOTGAME]

Once again, if he's so much better, he hasn't shown it. And, there's no way in hell that Valanciunas starts over Mozgov. The Cavs need rim protection from that position, first and foremost. One of the biggest criticisms of Jonas by people who actually watch the Raptors is his "defensive instincts."

He'd be the third big in the rotation, as I said.

Also as I said, if he's so much better than TT, he hasn't shown it thus far in his career. He has been a career 10/8 guy. And, he was that same guy in the playoffs last year.

Who has more value in the league? Who would be starter on most teams in the league? The answers are obvious. Thompson isn't a starter and will never be one. He is a rotation guy with no upside.

[IGOTGAME]

If the decision to take TT over Jonas is the Cavs' biggest mistake, I'll take it. Jonas has been OK. Nothing special.

Yes, that would be great if it was. Sadly, they made an even bigger mistake this summer.

[RedBlackAttack]

Who has more value in the league? Who would be starter on most teams in the league? The answers are obvious. Thompson isn't a starter and will never be one. He is a rotation guy with no upside.
All I can tell you is that good players produce. If Val is so much better, where's the production? Even on a roster stacked with talent, Tristan brings something. He has been one of the best offensive rebounders in the league this year and he is a solid defender who can play either frontcourt position.

Valanciunas is 5th on the Raptors in minutes played and he only plays 30 more seconds a night than Patrick Patterson, who is 6th. Let's stop acting as though we're talking about an established star, here. He is playing just 26 minutes a night for a reason.