So Wizards Jordan > Laker Kobe [Archive] - Message Board Basketball Forum

SamuraiSWISH

01-22-2015, 05:23 AM

It's still early tho. Kobe stats may dip more or increase slightly.
Kobe's volume, and efficiency have been dipping quickly for awhile, and he's been visibly less durable than Jordan who was 2.5 years older than him.

They're holding Kobe out seemingly every other game.

It wasn't until after the All Star break that MJ injured his knee and his stats / efficiency dipped. MJ was putting up 26/6/5 before he hurt himself.

TS pads efficiency because of free throw percentage. Bryant's stats have begun falling off before Christmas.

To make the picturer clearer, Jordan also led his Wizards, with an even less talented roster than the current Lakers to a better record, and were on course to getting in the playoffs had he not injured himself.

Doing all this in a dramatically more difficult scoring climate than what is now. Oldest player to drop 50+ points. MJ was also better defensively than Kobe.

39 year old, 2002 Jordan > 36 year old, 2015 Kobe ... I think that's pretty clear at this point. Even though Kobe's had some flashes of brillaince to his old self.

At their ages, and mileage, it's just not sustainable. Jordan should've stayed retired after 1998. I think Kobe should've retired with the torn achilles in 2013. I think both would have been memorable, and courageous story book endings.

- MJ going out clutch style, a 6x champ, through his sheer force of will.
- Kobe going out dragging a Laker team into the playoffs, ballin till his wheels fell off. Literally.

Sometimes athletes, especially superstar athletes with huge egos just don't know when to walk away.

I respect both MJ, and Kobe's hearts for wanting to compete with much younger men at their age on the perimeter even though they are shells of themselves physically.

Father time is a cruel a$$hole. At some point robs us all.

Shih508

01-22-2015, 06:21 AM

Jordan at 39:

22.9PPG on 45% shooting

Kobe at 36
22.6PPG on 37% shooting

League-wide fg% was lower in 2002. MJ was still shooting above league average while Kobe is having the worst fg% in the league for anyone taking more than 15 shots per game. That's why he's gonna sit out for the season soon cuz he's putting up one of worst performance of all time fg% wise

MJ > Kobe at any age anyway, it's not even debatable

Uncle Drew

01-22-2015, 10:49 AM

Kobe is a better off-ball passer than Wizards Jordan.

They Won

01-22-2015, 11:12 AM

Kobe is a better off-ball passer than Wizards Jordan.

What the heck does this even mean? :oldlol:

3ball

01-22-2015, 11:31 AM

What the heck does this even mean? :oldlol:

passing while playing off-ball.. just like it sounds:

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/5cd52fa99d892bb31f13e772321cd63b.gif

as opposed to passing as the primary ballhandler:

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/cc9f5bd27abe1cedf21d5f3133957e62.gif

Dragic4Life

01-22-2015, 11:34 AM

3ball those aren't Wizard Jordan.

24-Inch_Chrome

01-22-2015, 11:34 AM

Kobe is a better off-ball passer than Wizards Jordan.

:lol

SugarHill

01-22-2015, 11:34 AM

jordan is the greatest offball dribbler ever

riseagainst

01-22-2015, 11:35 AM

jordan is the greatest offball dribbler ever

:roll:

3ball

01-22-2015, 11:42 AM

3ball those aren't Wizard Jordan.
these are though - 3 game winners as a Wizard over Shawn Marion, Latrell Sprewell, and against the Cavs... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6tP0UOfHlzM&t=4m34s

what's kobe now, like 1-20 on game winners... :kobe:

Suguru101

01-22-2015, 12:03 PM

jordan is the greatest offball dribbler ever

Oh my God. :roll: :roll: :roll:

supernova5912

01-22-2015, 09:30 PM

League-wide fg% was lower in 2002. MJ was still shooting above league average while Kobe is having the worst fg% in the league for anyone taking more than 15 shots per game. That's why he's gonna sit out for the season soon cuz he's putting up one of worst performance of all time fg% wise

MJ > Kobe at any age anyway, it's not even debatable

You do realize that 14-15 Kobe Bryant is more efficient than 01-02 Michael Jordan right? They're basically equal to each other in those respective years. Kobe is averaging 22.3 points, 5.7 rebounds, 5.6 assists, and 1.3 steals with a 47.7 TS% in 34.5 minutes. 01-02 Jordan averaged 22.9 points, 5.7 rebounds, 5.2 assists, and 1.4 steals with a 46.8 TS% in 34.9 minutes.

gts

01-22-2015, 09:32 PM

jordan is the greatest offball dribbler ever

And 3Ball has the gifs to prove it!

triangleoffense

01-22-2015, 09:33 PM

Kobe is a better off-ball passer than Wizards Jordan.
lol gtfo with this

Cali Syndicate

01-22-2015, 10:50 PM

jordan is the greatest offball dribbler ever

But is he the greatest off the ball two footed chest to chest bounce passer? Cause he isn't, its a whole new ball game.

Dro

01-22-2015, 11:27 PM

And 3Ball has the gifs to prove it!
:lol
Ok, so better off ball dunker...who you got?

DatAsh

01-22-2015, 11:42 PM

I don't understand why people have a problem with off-ball passing, yet they don't seem to have a problem with off-ball scoring.

Dro

01-22-2015, 11:44 PM

I don't understand why people have a problem with off-ball passing, yet they don't seem to have a problem with off-ball scoring.
Off ball scoring sounds stupid too, wtf is that?

DatAsh

01-22-2015, 11:46 PM

Off ball scoring sounds stupid too, wtf is that?

I agree they both kinda sound silly, but people make fun of 3Ball for one and use the other all the time.

Regardless, it's clear what both phrases mean.

OldSchoolBBall

01-22-2015, 11:49 PM

You do realize that 14-15 Kobe Bryant is more efficient than 01-02 Michael Jordan right? They're basically equal to each other in those respective years. Kobe is averaging 22.3 points, 5.7 rebounds, 5.6 assists, and 1.3 steals with a 47.7 TS% in 34.5 minutes. 01-02 Jordan averaged 22.9 points, 5.7 rebounds, 5.2 assists, and 1.4 steals with a 46.8 TS% in 34.9 minutes.

League average TS% was like 2% lower in 2002 than this year. Also, Jordan was averaging 25+/6+/5+/42% FG/48% TS through the All-Star break before he hurt his knee and sat out a month.

Heavincent

01-22-2015, 11:50 PM

Injuries ruined Kobe's career, not age. His old age just compounded the issue. He would still be an elite player if he didn't tear his achilles.

navy

01-23-2015, 12:26 AM

Injuries ruined Kobe's career, not age. His old age just compounded the issue. He would still be an elite player if he didn't tear his achilles.
That's the same thing for every player. The injury just isnt as pronounced as an Achilles tear, but if you ask anyone who ever got old they would tell you that something started to hurt and they were never the same.

supernova5912

01-23-2015, 12:51 AM

League average TS% was like 2% lower in 2002 than this year. Also, Jordan was averaging 25+/6+/5+/42% FG/48% TS through the All-Star break before he hurt his knee and sat out a month.

What are you trying to argue here? 48 TS% is absolutely terrible for any year. As I said, both players are almost exactly equal in those respective seasons.

3ball

01-23-2015, 01:06 AM

What are you trying to argue here? 48 TS% is absolutely terrible for any year. As I said, both players are almost exactly equal in those respective seasons.

the only way to be unbiased when looking at the numbers is use per-100 stats, which account for pace and playing time differences:

Per-100 Stats:

Kobe 2015: 32.7 PPG, 8.3 RPG, 8.0 APG, 2.0 SPG, 0.3 BPG, 5.4 TO, 37% FG, 96 ORTG
MJ... 2002: 35.7 PPG, 8.8 RPG, 8.3 APG, 2.2 SPG, 0.7 BPG, 4.2 TO, 42% FG, 99 ORTG

Jordan's production is higher ACROSS THE BOARD IN EVERY CATEGORY.

Jordan also led his team to 37 wins (18 more than the year before with the EXACT same roster), and hit 3 game winners (over Shawn Marion (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pjo06p5zchg), Latrell Sprewell (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PgG9X0aZb_Q&t=5m23s), and on the Cavs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwW9XbwlV1o&t=5m52s)).

Plus he was 39 years old, not 36 like Kobe - if Jordan had played in 1999 at 36 years old, his numbers and ability would have been almost the same as 1998 at 35, when he 3-peated and won the regular season MVP, All-Star Game MVP, and Finals MVP.
.

BigBoss

01-23-2015, 01:12 AM

Goat> Mj

OldSchoolBBall

01-23-2015, 01:33 AM

What are you trying to argue here? 48 TS% is absolutely terrible for any year. As I said, both players are almost exactly equal in those respective seasons.

Kobe has reaped the benefits of the more lax FT calling today as compared to 2002, which boosts his TS%. In reality, he's far less efficient - 37% FG versus 42% for Jordan. That's a big gap.

supernova5912

01-23-2015, 02:30 AM

the only way to be unbiased when looking at the numbers is use per-100 stats, which account for pace and playing time differences:

Per-100 Stats:

Kobe 2015: 32.7 PPG, 8.3 RPG, 8.0 APG, 2.0 SPG, 0.3 BPG, 5.4 TO, 37% FG, 96 ORTG
MJ... 2002: 35.7 PPG, 8.8 RPG, 8.3 APG, 2.2 SPG, 0.7 BPG, 4.2 TO, 42% FG, 99 ORTG

Jordan's production is higher ACROSS THE BOARD IN EVERY CATEGORY.

Jordan also led his team to 37 wins (18 more than the year before with the EXACT same roster), and hit 3 game winners (over Shawn Marion (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pjo06p5zchg), Latrell Sprewell (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PgG9X0aZb_Q&t=5m23s), and on the Cavs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwW9XbwlV1o&t=5m52s)).

Plus he was 39 years old, not 36 like Kobe - if Jordan had played in 1999 at 36 years old, his numbers and ability would have been almost the same as 1998 at 35, when he 3-peated and won the regular season MVP, All-Star Game MVP, and Finals MVP.
.

First off, your assist numbers are switched. I put up the numnbers again. Second off, eFG% is more reliable than FG%.

2014-15 Bryant - 32.8 points, 8.3 rebounds, 8.3 assists, 2.0 steals, 0.3 blocks, 5.4 turnovers, 41.1 eFG%

2001-02 Jordan - 35.7 points, 8.8 rebounds, 8.0 assists, 2.2 steals, 0.7 blocks, 4.2 turnover, 42.0 eFG%

So Jordan has + 2.9 points, + 0.8 rebounds, + 0.2 steals, + 0.4 blocks, - 1.2 turnovers, + 0.9 eFG% while Kobe has + 0.3 assists.

I agree that Jordan's production is better than Kobe's by a minor margin and is only more efficient without the inclusion of free throws. Jordan had incredible longevity.

If he had started playing at Kobe's age, his numbers would be completely different by the age of 36. Jordan actually played a lot less than Kobe due to his two retirements. In fact, it was only his 14th season despite being 39.

supernova5912

01-23-2015, 02:32 AM

Kobe has reaped the benefits of the more lax FT calling today as compared to 2002, which boosts his TS%. In reality, he's far less efficient - 37% FG versus 42% for Jordan. That's a big gap.

If you count in threes, with eFG%, Jordan is only 0.9% more efficient. It's not that big of a gap.

3ball

01-23-2015, 02:46 AM

I agree that Jordan's production is better than Kobe's by a minor margin and is only more efficient without the inclusion of free throws. Jordan had incredible longevity.

minor advantages ACROSS THE BOARD add up to a big advantage.

also, Kobe through 40 games is done - his numbers right now are the best they will be this season... he's at best a top 50 player itl.

whereas through 40 games for Jordan in 2002, he was averaging 25/6/5 with many 40 point games, a 50 point game, and 2 game-winners... and he was still a top 10 player itl.

andgar923

01-23-2015, 02:51 AM

supernova5912

01-23-2015, 03:21 AM

minor advantages ACROSS THE BOARD add up to a big advantage.

also, Kobe through 40 games is done - his numbers right now are the best they will be this season... he's at best a top 50 player itl.

whereas through 40 games for Jordan in 2002, he was averaging 25/6/5 with many 40 point games, a 50 point game, and 2 game-winners... and he was still a top 10 player itl.

Conceded about the advantage Jordan had.

Kobe's numbers would get better because he's been playing much better (especially as more of a facilitator) and been more efficient than before.

Jordan only put up four 40-point games. He also wasn't a top 10 player and saying so is delusional. Allen Iverson, Shaquille O Neal, Tracy McGrady, Tim Duncan, Jason Kidd, Kobe Bryant, Dirk Nowitzki, Kevin Garnett, Chris Webber, Vince Carter, Gary Payton, Steve Nash, Andre Miller, Baron Davis, Jermaine O Neal, and Ben Wallace were all better players than Jordan at that time. I'm sure there are even more players that I can think of off the top of my head. Plus, he wasn't efficient at all. Being more efficient than a 36 year old Kobe doesn't make you better than the top players in the league at that time.

supernova5912

01-23-2015, 03:31 AM

And to add to that...

The Wiz were actually in the playoff hunt, MJ was playing defense, and wasn't taking games off to 'rest'. He also hadn't played for years and was basically out of shape for most of the early going.

The Wizards were in the 10th seed, out of the 8th seed by 5 games, if that counts as in the playoff hunt. I'm assuming that you think resting to preserve one's body after multiple injuries is not a smart step to take. I'm also assuming that you think not playing for years and being out of shape is worse than coming off back-to-back career-ending injuries. Seriously, why are you acting like Kobe taking games off to "rest" is so inappropriate but Jordan taking off years to "rest" isn't?

SamuraiSWISH

01-23-2015, 03:37 AM

Jordan only put up four 40-point games.
How many has Kobe put up? Hell, he hasn't had a 50 point game in years. MJ had one in 2002. What on earth is your point? Jordan had more 40x, and 50 point games at 39 or 40 years old than Kobe has had the past 2x years.

He also wasn't a top 10 player and saying so is delusional. Allen Iverson, Shaquille O Neal, Tracy McGrady, Tim Duncan, Jason Kidd, Kobe Bryant, Dirk Nowitzki, Kevin Garnett, Chris Webber, Vince Carter, Gary Payton, Steve Nash, Andre Miller, Baron Davis, Jermaine O Neal, and Ben Wallace were all better players than Jordan at that time.
No, those would be arguable. You missed some guys too like Paul Pierce. That's taken the season in it's entirety into account. Before he injured himself, Jordan was better or on equal footing with a number of those elite guys.

I'm sure there are even more players that I can think of off the top of my head. Plus, he wasn't efficient at all. Being more efficient than a 36 year old Kobe doesn't make you better than the top players in the league at that time.
Those players are better, and deeper than the elite talent in the league today. And as we said it was a more difficult defensive era, and scoring climate.

dreamwarrior

01-23-2015, 04:02 AM

Um...Kobe had 2 serious injuries. Here's Jordan's numbers after his minor knee surgery.

18.0/5.8/3.5/1.3/0.4/1.9tov on .400/.285/.818

Mr Feeny

01-23-2015, 04:39 AM

How many has Kobe put up? Hell, he hasn't had a 50 point game in years. MJ had one in 2002. What on earth is your point? Jordan had more 40x, and 50 point games at 39 or 40 years old than Kobe has had the past 2x years.

Exactly right. Does this moron realize that a 40 year old Jordan put up 40+? While his 36 year old shell-of-his-former self Kobe is averaging 22 ppg on 37 %fg?

3ball

01-23-2015, 05:41 AM

Conceded about the advantage Jordan had.

He also wasn't a top 10 player and saying so is delusional. Allen Iverson, Shaquille O Neal, Tracy McGrady, Tim Duncan, Jason Kidd, Kobe Bryant, Dirk Nowitzki, Kevin Garnett, Chris Webber, Vince Carter, Gary Payton, Steve Nash, Andre Miller, Baron Davis, Jermaine O Neal, and Ben Wallace were all better players than Jordan at that time.

Gary Payton?.. His prime was 1996... By 2002, Payton was a year away from sucking for the Lakers.

Vince Carter is a slightly better version of Gerald Green... he is very overrated because of one dunk contest... but he's not a true guard.... he's a slow-footed forward, and prefers the jumpshot to drawing fouls.

Mavericks' Nash, Miller, Jermaine O'Neal (http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/f1976f58c3ccbf9027694cfdb032cae9.gif)?... gtfo

As for Ben Wallace - that's just an insult - let me know when he adds 18 wins to a team like Jordan did in 2002 (exact same roster).

In the OP above, I bolded which players were better than MJ in 2002 - I have him at 8th best, so I stand behind my original point, that MJ was a top 10 player (8th best) in the league at the 50 game mark, when he was 25/6/5... the stats were great, but it was the intangibles (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pjo06p5zchg&t=0m21s) as well.

SamuraiSWISH

01-23-2015, 05:46 AM

Vince Carter is a slightly better version of Gerald Green
Slightly? Come on, dude ... that's beyond disingenuous

but he's not a true guard.... he's a slow-footed forward, and prefers the jumpshot to drawing fouls.
Interesting you say that, because I always felt that as well. So what do you consider:

Pierce
McGrady
Kobe
Joe Johnson

True guards, true small forwards? Some of them are tweeners between both positions.

Dragonyeuw

01-23-2015, 06:06 AM

If he had started playing at Kobe's age, his numbers would be completely different by the age of 36. Jordan actually played a lot less than Kobe due to his two retirements. In fact, it was only his 14th season despite being 39.

Jordan also played three years of college ball, was that any less wear and tear than Kobe playing 8 mins a night as an 18 year old rookie? Or MJ bearing the weight of the franchise from day one, while Kobe had zero pressures on him to perform his first two years? Does Jordan's brief stint in baseball( yes, he sucked) not count as natural wear and tear? We're getting very subjective here with what does and doesn't cause wear on the body. Any kind of moderate to high level sporting activity( and yes, triple A baseball does count) will cause wear. You guys talk like MJ was sitting on his a$$ eating dorritos for a year and a half.

And, 39 is still older than 36. If you took two non-active people, had them live in the same environment, basically have their lives mirror each other ..... All things being equal, the 39 year old will have more natural body regression simply due to being 3 years older.

Kobe's current level is mainly due to the injury, age has simply compounded the matter. I have little reason to think that Kobe at 36, minus the achilles tear, wouldn't be doing 25/5/5 on 43-45% shooting, especially in what is a very weak period for shooting guards overall. Hell, MJ in 2002 at 39 would have been 26/5/6/43% if he hadnt gotten injured. And that was in a considerably tougher defensive era with a number of great perimeter talents at or near their primes.

SamuraiSWISH

01-23-2015, 06:22 AM

Jordan also played three years of college ball, was that any less wear and tear than Kobe playing 8 mins a night as an 18 year old rookie? Or MJ bearing the weight of the franchise from day one, while Kobe had zero pressures on him to perform his first two years? Does Jordan's brief stint in baseball( yes, he sucked) not count as natural wear and tear? We're getting very subjective here with what does and doesn't cause wear on the body. Any kind of moderate to high level sporting activity( and yes, triple A baseball does count) will cause wear. You guys talk like MJ was sitting on his a$$ eating dorritos for a year and a half.
Nah bro, his 1st retirement he didn't get older. He wasn't experiencing wear and tear in another pro sport. He was taking a magical youth serum that made him dramatically younger, and fresher.

It's more a detriment to his skills, and his body as it pertains to a specific sport to be away from it for a long period of time. Specifically the 2nd retirement where he got way older, and more out of shape.

And, 39 is still older than 36.
:applause:

Hell, MJ in 2002 at 39 would have been 26/5/6/43% if he hadnt gotten injured. And that was in a considerably tougher defensive era with a number of great perimeter talents at or near their primes.
:pimp:

andgar923

01-23-2015, 09:01 AM

The Wizards were in the 10th seed, out of the 8th seed by 5 games, if that counts as in the playoff hunt. I'm assuming that you think resting to preserve one's body after multiple injuries is not a smart step to take. I'm also assuming that you think not playing for years and being out of shape is worse than coming off back-to-back career-ending injuries. Seriously, why are you acting like Kobe taking games off to "rest" is so inappropriate but Jordan taking off years to "rest" isn't?

You obviously didn't watch the Wizards.

MJ was getting serious MVP talk and had the Wizards in playoff contention until he stopped playing.

Also stop assuming and stop adding words to what I mentioned. Nowhere did I state it wasn't 'smart' for Kobe to rest. But the FACTS are FACTS, Kobe rested while MJ didn't.

Career ending injuries? other players have had the same injury that Kobe had and were successful at coming back, most notably Nique.

And stop pretending that MJ himself didn't come back from injuries as well. Or are you conveniently leaving that out? MJ wasn't 'resting' his body either. It's harder to comeback at that age without being in shape than it is if you were in shape. Something that MJ mentioned himself while he was with the Wiz. He mentioned he'd wish he got in shape sooner rather than later, the doctors and trainers said the same.

MJ's injuries weren't minor either, some might even argue that they were also career ending injuries considering his age. He needed to have surgeries to fix his ribs along with knee injuries. He actually had to get treatment and get his knee drained while he was playing.

In any case, either way you look at it, MJ was a better player and the stats only tell half the story.

andgar923

01-23-2015, 09:36 AM

Conceded about the advantage Jordan had.

Kobe's numbers would get better because he's been playing much better (especially as more of a facilitator) and been more efficient than before.

Jordan only put up four 40-point games. He also wasn't a top 10 player and saying so is delusional. Allen Iverson, Shaquille O Neal, Tracy McGrady, Tim Duncan, Jason Kidd, Kobe Bryant, Dirk Nowitzki, Kevin Garnett, Chris Webber, Vince Carter, Gary Payton, Steve Nash, Andre Miller, Baron Davis, Jermaine O Neal, and Ben Wallace were all better players than Jordan at that time. I'm sure there are even more players that I can think of off the top of my head. Plus, he wasn't efficient at all. Being more efficient than a 36 year old Kobe doesn't make you better than the top players in the league at that time.

Uh... MJ was getting serious MVP talk before he stopped playing, where were you during that time?

He turned an entire franchise around and had them in playoff contention. And 'ONLY' put up four 40 point games?

OldSchoolBBall

01-23-2015, 01:01 PM

Dragonyeuw

01-23-2015, 01:02 PM

MJ's injuries weren't minor either, some might even argue that they were also career ending injuries considering his age. He needed to have surgeries to fix his ribs along with knee injuries. He actually had to get treatment and get his knee drained while he was playing.

Plus he cut his finger on his shooting hand using a cigar cutter or something like that, needeing surgery which certainly would impact his shooting form. Yeah, MJ was pretty banged up as a Wizard, ON TOP OF being 39/40 years old.

DMAVS41

01-23-2015, 01:47 PM

First off, your assist numbers are switched. I put up the numnbers again. Second off, eFG% is more reliable than FG%.

2014-15 Bryant - 32.8 points, 8.3 rebounds, 8.3 assists, 2.0 steals, 0.3 blocks, 5.4 turnovers, 41.1 eFG%

2001-02 Jordan - 35.7 points, 8.8 rebounds, 8.0 assists, 2.2 steals, 0.7 blocks, 4.2 turnover, 42.0 eFG%

So Jordan has + 2.9 points, + 0.8 rebounds, + 0.2 steals, + 0.4 blocks, - 1.2 turnovers, + 0.9 eFG% while Kobe has + 0.3 assists.

I agree that Jordan's production is better than Kobe's by a minor margin and is only more efficient without the inclusion of free throws. Jordan had incredible longevity.

If he had started playing at Kobe's age, his numbers would be completely different by the age of 36. Jordan actually played a lot less than Kobe due to his two retirements. In fact, it was only his 14th season despite being 39.

You must also account, and maybe you guys have, for MJ playing in one of the toughest defensive eras in NBA history in 02 and 03. It's a significant difference between back then and now.

The fact that MJ was able to slightly better Kobe on raw stats while actually getting wins...while playing against far tougher defenses separates the two.

I thought Kobe early on in the season looked great, but was just cold...and his shooting would come up, but obviously that is unlikely to happen.

Just shows how hard it is to do anything in the league when you aren't right and are old. The end is near for a few other all timers like Dirk and Duncan as well.

supernova5912

01-23-2015, 02:20 PM

Gary Payton?.. His prime was 1996... By 2002, Payton was a year away from sucking for the Lakers.

Vince Carter is a slightly better version of Gerald Green... he is very overrated because of one dunk contest... but he's not a true guard.... he's a slow-footed forward, and prefers the jumpshot to drawing fouls.

Mavericks' Nash, Miller, Jermaine O'Neal (http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/f1976f58c3ccbf9027694cfdb032cae9.gif)?... gtfo

As for Ben Wallace - that's just an insult - let me know when he adds 18 wins to a team like Jordan did in 2002 (exact same roster).

In the OP above, I bolded which players were better than MJ in 2002 - I have him at 8th best, so I stand behind my original point, that MJ was a top 10 player (8th best) in the league at the 50 game mark, when he was 25/6/5... the stats were great, but it was the intangibles (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pjo06p5zchg&t=0m21s) as well.

Are you serious? Gary Payton was averaging 22.1 points, 9.0 assists, 4.8 rebounds, and 1.6 steals with a 52.6 TS% and a 22.9 PER. He was also two seasons from joining the Lakers (03-04).

Your personal opinion on Carter doesn't matter when he averaged 24.7 points, 5.2 rebounds, 4.0 assists, and 1.6 steals with a 51.5 TS% and a 20.5 PER.

01-02 Nash was averaging 17.9 points and 7.7 assists with a 60.2 TS% and a 20.7 PER. There's a reason he was an All-Star.

Andre Miller averaged 16.5 points, 10.9 assists, 4.7 rebounds, and 1.6 steals with a 53.8 TS% and a 21.8 PER. This was one of his best seasons over his entire career.

Not to mention Allen Iverson, who was averaging 31.4 points, 5.5 assists, 4.5 rebounds, and 2.8 steals with a 48.9 TS% and 21.9 PER.

Jason Kidd was averaging 14.7 points, 9.9 assists, 7.3 rebounds, and 2.1 steals with a 48.4 TS%, a 19.1 PER, and a defensive rating of 98, not to mention leading the Nets to the Finals with Kenyon Martin as the next best offensive player.

Chris Webber was also better than Jordan with averages of 24.5 points, 10.1 rebounds, 4.8 assists, 1.7 steals, and 1.4 blocks with a 54.0 TS% and a 24.4 PER.

Jermaine O Neal was averaging 19.0 points, 10.5 rebounds, and 2.3 blocks with a 52.1 TS% and 18.1 PER. He was also an All-Star because he was playing very well.

Ben Wallace had averages of 7.6 points, 13.0 rebounds, 3.5 blocks, and 1.7 steals with a 52.2 TS% and 18.6 PER, not to mention a defensive rating of 93.

So, I still disagree that Jordan was a top 10 player that season. He played well but there were so many younger, better players that season.

supernova5912

01-23-2015, 02:41 PM

You obviously didn't watch the Wizards.

MJ was getting serious MVP talk and had the Wizards in playoff contention until he stopped playing.

Also stop assuming and stop adding words to what I mentioned. Nowhere did I state it wasn't 'smart' for Kobe to rest. But the FACTS are FACTS, Kobe rested while MJ didn't.

Career ending injuries? other players have had the same injury that Kobe had and were successful at coming back, most notably Nique.

And stop pretending that MJ himself didn't come back from injuries as well. Or are you conveniently leaving that out? MJ wasn't 'resting' his body either. It's harder to comeback at that age without being in shape than it is if you were in shape. Something that MJ mentioned himself while he was with the Wiz. He mentioned he'd wish he got in shape sooner rather than later, the doctors and trainers said the same.

MJ's injuries weren't minor either, some might even argue that they were also career ending injuries considering his age. He needed to have surgeries to fix his ribs along with knee injuries. He actually had to get treatment and get his knee drained while he was playing.

In any case, either way you look at it, MJ was a better player and the stats only tell half the story.

Alright, I honestly didn't know Jordan had the Wizards in a playoff spot at one point.

Jordan wasn't actually even close to getting another MVP. He played well for his age but he wasn't better than Kobe, McGrady, Shaq, Duncan, Garnett, and a number of other players.

Apologies but it sounded like you were implying that Kobe shouldn't rest after being injured severely.

Wilkins hadn't played as long as Kobe when he ruptured his Achilles, and he didn't get another season-ending knee fracture six games into the season.

I never pretended Jordan didn't come back from injuries or that his injuries were minor. I said Kobe's back-to-back injuries were worse, which is factual.

Being out of shape was a problem Jordan overcame but what I'm saying is it's easier to come back from being out of shape than to come back from two back-to-back season-ending injuries that have ended careers.

I like how you imply that Jordan's injuries are career-ending because of his age but Kobe's back-to-back season-ending injuries aren't, despite playing 17 seasons.

kennethgriffin

01-23-2015, 02:57 PM

I have no opinion on this subject. Forum rules

supernova5912

01-23-2015, 03:09 PM

How many has Kobe put up? Hell, he hasn't had a 50 point game in years. MJ had one in 2002. What on earth is your point? Jordan had more 40x, and 50 point games at 39 or 40 years old than Kobe has had the past 2x years.

No, those would be arguable. You missed some guys too like Paul Pierce. That's taken the season in it's entirety into account. Before he injured himself, Jordan was better or on equal footing with a number of those elite guys.

Those players are better, and deeper than the elite talent in the league today. And as we said it was a more difficult defensive era, and scoring climate.

My point was Jordan didn't have "many" 40-point games like the other guy said, not that it wasn't impressive.

Yeah, I was just naming players that I remember as playing better than Jordan back then. Jordan was impressive but it doesn't mean he was a top 10 player that season.

Agreed, I loved watching Tracy McGrady, Baron Davis, and Allen Iverson play. They would singlehandedly win games for their teams.

supernova5912

01-23-2015, 03:22 PM

Uh... MJ was getting serious MVP talk before he stopped playing, where were you during that time?

He turned an entire franchise around and had them in playoff contention. And 'ONLY' put up four 40 point games?

I was watching the most entertaining teams in the league (Kings, Lakers, Mavs, Nets, 76ers, and even Hornets).

My point was that he didn't have "many" 40-point games as that one guy said. It wasn't that scoring 40+ points is unimpressive.

Dragonyeuw

01-23-2015, 04:21 PM

Jordan wasn't actually even close to getting another MVP. He played well for his age but he wasn't better than Kobe, McGrady, Shaq, Duncan, Garnett, and a number of other players.

After that list of players( throw Iverson, Webber, maybe a few others), he was right in the mix of top tier players. It's not a stretch to say he was top 10-15 that season after the heavyweights, and really, pre-injury numbers of 26/5/6 on 43% shooting are elite numbers at any age, let alone a 39 year old.

insidious301

01-23-2015, 04:51 PM

I'm a big Jordan fan, but he was the most inefficient 20 PPG scorer in history. This version of Kobe is more comparable to THAT Jordan, but also keep in mind that Kobe came of a debilitating, career ending injury. As well, reports are that his "shoulder cuff" was screwed up at the begging of the season, which makes sense considering all the games he's been asked to sit.

jzek

01-23-2015, 04:53 PM

This is a surprise to anyone? That Jordan is better than Kobe at any age? SMH...

OldSchoolBBall

01-23-2015, 05:27 PM

I was watching the most entertaining teams in the league (Kings, Lakers, Mavs, Nets, 76ers, and even Hornets).

My point was that he didn't have "many" 40-point games as that one guy said. It wasn't that scoring 40+ points is unimpressive.

Jordan had more games of 40+ points (5 games) than all but 3 players in 2002. Only Iverson (9), Shaq (7), and McGrady (6) had more. So yeah, given the era, he had a lot of games of 40+. This isn't the '06-'09 NBA where rule changes made putting up 40+ a hell of a lot easier.

3ball

01-23-2015, 07:27 PM

Your personal opinion on Carter doesn't matter when he averaged 24.7 points, 5.2 rebounds, 4.0 assists, and 1.6 steals with a 51.5 TS% and a 20.5 PER.

It's not personal opinion - Jordan's 25/6/5 through 50 games was better than Vince's 24/5/4... even Jordan's season-ending PER of 20.7 was higher than Carter's.

Through 50 games when Jordan was still getting 25/6/5, his PER was even higher, probably in the 23-24 range... Why post Carter's inferior stats in the first place?

Carter is a chucker that doesn't get to the line - he's NOT a tough or smart player at all... and he's known for having a suboptimal, stat-padding style that doesn't win - he's never been a winner... Jordan led that Wizards team to 18 more wins in 2002 (19 to 37), with the exact same roster.

I would never take Carter, or half the players you mentioned over 25/6/5 Wizards Jordan - those guys aren't winners, and their style of play doesn't compare to Jordan's.

Putting these guys over Jordan just shows that you didn't watch Jordan play - again, we're only talking about the Jordan that was getting 26/6/5 - this Jordan was having back-to-back 51 point and 45-point performances, hitting game-winners on the best defenders in the league, and was considered by everyone to be a top 10 player - so you're analysis is revisionist history.

SamuraiSWISH

01-23-2015, 07:37 PM

Jordan had more games of 40+ points (5 games) than all but 4 players in 2002. Only Iverson (9), Shaq (7), and McGrady (6) had more. So yeah, given the era, he had a lot of games of 40+. This isn't the '06-'09 NBA where rule changes made putting up 40+ a hell of a lot easier.
I didn't even realize that ...

And it's no shame having less 40 point games than just 3x guys being prime: Iverson, Shaq, and McGrady when you're 39 years old.

That's one of the more impressive MJ stats I've seen in sometime. Jordan did all this in a difficult scoring climate, against arguably the best era for SGs ever.

prime Kobe
prime McGrady
prime Iverson
prime Ray Allen
prime Vince Carter

Yikes.

supernova5912

01-23-2015, 07:50 PM

It's not personal opinion - Jordan's 25/6/5 through 50 games was better than Vince's 24/5/4... even Jordan's season-ending PER of 20.7 was higher than Carter's.

Through 50 games when Jordan was still getting 25/6/5, his PER was even higher, probably in the 23-24 range... Why post Carter's inferior stats in the first place?

Carter is a chucker that doesn't get to the line - he's NOT a tough or smart player at all... and he's known for having a suboptimal, stat-padding style that doesn't win - he's never been a winner... Jordan led that Wizards team to 18 more wins in 2002 (19 to 37), with the exact same roster.

I would never take Carter, or half the players you mentioned over 25/6/5 Wizards Jordan - those guys aren't winners, and their style of play doesn't compare to Jordan's.

Putting these guys over Jordan just shows that you didn't watch Jordan play - again, we're only talking about the Jordan that was getting 26/6/5 - this Jordan was having back-to-back 51 point and 45-point performances, hitting game-winners on the best defenders in the league, and was considered by everyone to be a top 10 player - so you're analysis is revisionist history.

Your rhetoric doesn't change anything when the fact is that Allen Iverson, Chris Webber, and Payton were clearly better than Jordan that season, alongside Kobe, McGrady, Shaq, Duncan, Garnett, Davis, and Dirk. Jordan played well, on the same tier as Carter. I don't even like Carter but what I'm saying is that Jordan wasn't a top 10 player that season. Oh, and to not watching Jordan play, I watched Jordan destroy my favorite team in the Finals. Just because I think there are ten better players than him in one of his final years doesn't mean I'm revising history.

3ball

01-23-2015, 07:51 PM

I didn't even realize that ...

And it's no shame having less 40 point games than just 3x guys being prime: Iverson, Shaq, and McGrady when you're 39 years old.

That's one of the more impressive MJ stats I've seen in sometime. Jordan did all this in a difficult scoring climate, against arguably the best era for SGs ever.

prime Kobe
prime McGrady
prime Iverson
prime Ray Allen
prime Vince Carter

Yikes.
those SG's are about same as these guys... not much difference.. actually, i like these guys a little better from 1996:

Jordan
Penny
Drexler
Richmond
Sprewell
Reggie Miller

Now if we wanted to compare the SF's.... THAT'S where Jordan's eras show significant separation from anything post-2000.... oooooohweeeee, it's not close.

SamuraiSWISH

01-23-2015, 07:55 PM

those SG's are about same as these guys... not much difference.. actually, i like these guys a little better from 1996:

Jordan
Penny
Drexler
Richmond
Sprewell
Reggie Miller
Excluding the best SG in each class, MJ and Kobe?

I take T-Mac, Iverson, Ray Allen, and Vince Varter as basketball players over Drexler, Richmond, Sprewell, and Reggie. Clearly too.

Penny was a PG, bruh.

insidious301

01-23-2015, 08:41 PM

Jordan had more games of 40+ points (5 games) than all but 4 players in 2002. Only Iverson (9), Shaq (7), and McGrady (6) had more. So yeah, given the era, he had a lot of games of 40+. This isn't the '06-'09 NBA where rule changes made putting up 40+ a hell of a lot easier.
Sure, but what good are those 40 point games if his efficiency is among the lowest of all volume scorers in the league? Scoring 40 points in ANY era and game is impressive, for a 40 year old? Even more so, but when you factor in these scoring outbursts didn't impact the team per wins, they're really just numbers. Empty ones at that.

Not only was Wizards Jordan the least efficient perimeter player, but one of the least impactful players. Around 50 in Regularized Adjusted Plus Minus, which is horrific for a player of his stature. I grew up on Jordan, and seeing him play those years...That wasn't the same guy.

3ball

01-23-2015, 08:43 PM

I take T-Mac..

Drexler > Tmac.... jfc

Tmac never won a playoff series... He had one elite statistical season as a chucker... Drexler was never a chucker, which is why he led his team to the Finals twice, and even averaged 25/8/5 against Jordan in the Finals.

Ray Allen

Reggie Miller and Ray Allen are the same player only Miller was the vastly superior playoff performer - check the playoff stats (huge gap) and let's count big playoff moments and compare.

and Vince Varter .

Vince was a chucker and non-winner like Richmond... i don't see any difference there at all, statistically, or their actual games... like most, you might be allowing one dunk contest to color your judgement of Vince.

i'd take a prime Sprewell over Vince too - Spree had equal stats and more optimal style of play - he was part of successful teams (Spree was MVP for the Knicks in 1999 Finals vs. Spurs, averaging 26 ppg, 7 rebs against an all-time level defense).

Spree was also a great defender (2nd Team all-defense, while Vince was an utter civ defensively).

Penny was a PG, bruh.

for over 80% of his career, he was officially a SG, and even listed as a SF at times........ bruh

and even when he was listed as a PG, he played just as much SG as he played point... you just didn't see him play at the time.

Excluding the best SG in each class, MJ and Kobe?

why would we do this?... why do the guys arguing the current era over previous eras always need a concession of some kind?... every single time.

and let me know if you want to compare the SF's... today's game has the weakest crop of SF's of all time... a lot of people think it's today's SG's that are weak... not NEARLY as weak as today's SF's who are a joke...

i was going to do an all-time SF list for 2000-2014, and I found myself having to use Kawhi Leonard as the #9 guy!!!!.... I mean, it's mind-boggling how much worse this is than previous eras.

OldSchoolBBall

01-23-2015, 09:06 PM

Sure, but what good are those 40 point games if his efficiency is among the lowest of all volume scorers in the league? Scoring 40 points in ANY era and game is impressive, for a 40 year old? Even more so, but when you factor in these scoring outbursts didn't impact the team per wins, they're really just numbers. Empty ones at that.

Except that it DID lead to wins. Jordan had the Wizards at 26-20 at the All-Star break, in the 6th spot in the East, on pace for 42-44 wins. This was a team that won just 19 games the year prior, so that would have been a 23-25 game improvement. Then he hurt his knee shortly thereafter and had to sit out one month,

SamuraiSWISH

01-23-2015, 09:07 PM

Except that it DID lead to wins. Jordan had the Wizards at 26-20 at the All-Star break, in the 6th spot in the East, on pace for 42-44 wins. This was a team that won just 19 games the year prior, so that would have been a 23-25 game improvement. Then he hurt his knee shortly thereafter and had to sit out one month,
39 year old Jordan doubled a 19 win team's record in essence. Imagine what prime, or peak MJ could've done.

3ball

01-23-2015, 09:10 PM

39 year old Jordan doubled a 19 win team's record in essence. Imagine what prime, or peak MJ could've done.
i notice you avoided commenting on the SF crop of 2000-2014, which is the thinnest class of all time... a literal joke compared to any previous era.
.

SugarHill

01-23-2015, 09:17 PM

i notice you avoided commenting on the SF crop of 2000-2014, which is the thinnest class of all time... a literal joke compared to any previous era.
.

How are LeBron/Durant/Melo/Pierce a joke to any era?

why are you so prone to nostalgia?

SamuraiSWISH

01-23-2015, 09:21 PM

i notice you avoided commenting on the SF crop of 2000-2014, which is the thinnest class of all time... a literal joke compared to any previous era.
.
I don't agree with many of your points, and arguing with you is practically futile. I'm not trying to spend all night on here, and then you start posting GIF after GIF. It's annoying to talk with you sometimes. I don't feel like writing dissertations right now on a Friday night.

When you said Reggie was better than Ray Allen you lost all credibility. The both are cream of the crop off the ball, and shooting 3s. Everything else? Ray Allen is clearly the better basketball player.

Or when you were arguing Penny at his best was a SG. He defended SGs, yes, but he was a PG.

And now, I don't think the SF crop has been weak. LeBron, Durant, Melo, and Paul Pierce alone is enough to elevate it over most. McGrady could be considered a SF too.

LeBron is arguably the best SF ever, and he just turned 30 4x MVPs. 2x Rings, 2x Finals MVPs. Another SF just last year won MVP. Your agenda is obvious.

3ball

01-23-2015, 09:45 PM

How are LeBron/Durant/Melo/Pierce a joke to any era?

jfc, you only listed the top 4.... and those guys easily fall short of previous eras anyway..

Just compare Melo to Adrian Dantley - these two guys were mainly scorers and not much else - Dantley had seasons where his OWS was 12.3, 11.9, 13.0, and 10.9... Melo's high is 8.1, and he's only had 3 seasons total over 6.0.

Dantley's overall WS/48 was 0.189 compared to Melo's 0.137..... and Dantley's career TS% was 61.7% with a 119 ORtg, compared to 54.7% TS and 108 for Melo.

IT'S NOT EVEN CLOSE

So just looking at your top 4 - Lebron, Durant, Melo, and Pierce - let's compare:

Bird>Lebron
Dantley>Melo
Pippen=Durant (defense, winning experience & acumen)
Dominique>Pierce (Nique had better stats, and he almost took Bird all by himself in 1988... what would he have done with Garnett & Allen?)

These are just the top 4.... and my main point was that previous eras were FAR DEEPER... if we look at the entire list, it becomes laughable... it really does - we end up having to compare guys like Kawhi Leonard to Bernard King, Alex English and Worthy... it's gets really, really bad.
.

3ball

01-23-2015, 10:02 PM

...both (Miller and Allen) are cream of the crop off the ball, and shooting 3s. Everything else? Ray Allen is clearly the better basketball player.

this is dumb, new fan logic... Hakeem was better than Kareem at everything except the skyhook... a lot of guys were better than Shaq at everything.

Ray Allen and Reggie Miller have the same stats, except in the playoffs where Miller VASTLY outperformed Allen... it's not close at all... and i'm just talking stats, let alone big moments (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWNuB6zHAJ0&t=0m35s).

and Miller did far better with his own team than Allen ever did.

Heck in some situations, Reggie Miller is better than James Harden - Replace Harden on those 2012 OKC Thunder with Miller, and the Thunder ring EASILY.

SugarHill

01-23-2015, 10:08 PM

Lmao @ pippen = durant

3ball

01-23-2015, 10:19 PM

Lmao @ pippen = durant

that's fine... I can definitely see the argument for Durant over Pippen... I prefer Pippen however, because I consider his defense into the equation, and his ability to fit better onto championship teams.

Nonetheless, Bird still > Lebron... of course, Dantley far > Melo

and Dominique > Pierce (Nique had better stats, and what would Dominique have done with garnett and allen?.... Nique wasn't a lucky player like Pierce).

So the top SF's from today either don't match up, or barely match up to previous eras, and again, the main point is the DEPTH... today's OVERALL crop of SF's is a joke compared to the 80's and 90's...

this is due to 3-and-D, which has diluted much of the SF class - guys like Kawhi Leonard, who would be nothing in a previous era, can SHINE in today's game, just by play-finishing... it's amazing.

andgar923

01-23-2015, 11:41 PM

Except that it DID lead to wins. Jordan had the Wizards at 26-20 at the All-Star break, in the 6th spot in the East, on pace for 42-44 wins. This was a team that won just 19 games the year prior, so that would have been a 23-25 game improvement. Then he hurt his knee shortly thereafter and had to sit out one month,

The dude didn't watch him play, just how the other poster didn't either.

mehyaM24

01-24-2015, 12:13 AM

Sure, but what good are those 40 point games if his efficiency is among the lowest of all volume scorers in the league? Scoring 40 points in ANY era and game is impressive, for a 40 year old? Even more so, but when you factor in these scoring outbursts didn't impact the team per wins, they're really just numbers. Empty ones at that.

Not only was Wizards Jordan the least efficient perimeter player, but one of the least impactful players. Around 50 in Regularized Adjusted Plus Minus, which is horrific for a player of his stature. I grew up on Jordan, and seeing him play those years...That wasn't the same guy.

you need to post more often. good stuff :applause:

jordan was amazing for his age, but like you said, none of those performances in the long run led to a playoff birth. that, and his own teammate, jerry stackhouse, led the team in RAPM, suggesting his impact was more conducive to winning.

juju151111

01-24-2015, 12:23 AM

jfc, you only listed the top 4.... and those guys easily fall short of previous eras anyway..

Just compare Melo to Adrian Dantley - these two guys were mainly scorers and not much else - Dantley had seasons where his OWS was 12.3, 11.9, 13.0, and 10.9... Melo's high is 8.1, and he's only had 3 seasons total over 6.0.

Dantley's overall WS/48 was 0.189 compared to Melo's 0.137..... and Dantley's career TS% was 61.7% with a 119 ORtg, compared to 54.7% TS and 108 for Melo.

IT'S NOT EVEN CLOSE

So just looking at your top 4 - Lebron, Durant, Melo, and Pierce - let's compare:

Bird>Lebron
Dantley>Melo
Pippen=Durant (defense, winning experience & acumen)
Dominique>Pierce (Nique had better stats, and he almost took Bird all by himself in 1988... what would he have done with Garnett & Allen?)

These are just the top 4.... and my main point was that previous eras were FAR DEEPER... if we look at the entire list, it becomes laughable... it really does - we end up having to compare guys like Kawhi Leonard to Bernard King, Alex English and Worthy... it's gets really, really bad.
.
What did Bird do to be better then LJ?

juju151111

01-24-2015, 12:27 AM

you need to post more often. good stuff :applause:

jordan was amazing for his age, but like you said, none of those performances in the long run led to a playoff birth. that, and his own teammate, jerry stackhouse, led the team in RAPM, suggesting his impact was more conducive to winning.
They were winning games and on pace to make the playoffs with MJ. Wouldn't losing a scrub who counter productive to winning should of improved their record. Also what's your opinion on a broken down Mn with no knees having more 40 point games then Kobe. He had 5 total. That's sick at his age in one of the toughest defensive era 98-05 in history. This is when guards were not randomly throwing up 40 pt games because of today's rules. You can actually put it hands on them.

andgar923

01-24-2015, 12:58 AM

DonDadda59

01-24-2015, 01:01 AM

Old Man Kobe = garbage juice. Expensive garbage juice at that.

Floor Jordan was still a net positive for his team and clutch as hell. Too bad about his knees.

Crose

01-24-2015, 01:03 AM

Old Man Kobe = garbage juice. Expensive garbage juice at that.

Floor Jordan was still a net positive for his team and clutch as hell. Too bad about his knees.
no he wasnt jordan was 21% fg in last 2 minutes of games within 5 points during in the 2002 season . he was very unclutch

mehyaM24

01-24-2015, 01:10 AM

Old Man Kobe = garbage juice. Expensive garbage juice at that.

Floor Jordan was still a net positive for his team and clutch as hell. Too bad about his knees.
not to get technical, as they were both shells of their former self, but jordan actually was never a net positive. in fact, he was a -0.4 in defensive rating per 100 possessions (RAPM) and a 0 in overall RAPM.

his impact was basically null and void to the wizards success, or lack there of.

DonDadda59

01-24-2015, 01:46 AM

no he wasnt jordan was 21% fg in last 2 minutes of games within 5 points during in the 2002 season . he was very unclutch

First off, it was 27% which is around the league average if I'm not mistaken. Secondly, the 2 min mark is arbitrary as hell. With 2:30 he was at 30%, with 3 minutes he was at 33%, with 30 seconds he shot 50%.

And when his team was trailing, he was vintage Jordan. When the Wizards were down 3 or less points with 2 minutes or less (using your random time barometer), he shot 61% in crunch time:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/plus/shot_finder.cgi?request=1&player_id=jordami01&match=single&year_id=&is_playoffs=N&team_id=&opp_id=&game_num_min=0&game_num_max=99&game_month=&game_location=&game_result=&shot_pts=&is_make=&shot_type=&shot_distance_min=&shot_distance_max=&q4=Y&q5=Y&time_remain_minutes=2&time_remain_seconds=0&time_remain_comp=le&margin_min=-3&margin_max=-1&c1stat=&c1comp=ge&c1val=&c2stat=&c2comp=ge&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=ge&c3val=&order_by=fg

And he had 3 buzzer beaters/game winners that season alone if I'm not mistaken:

Vs Shawn Marion (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pjo06p5zchg)

Vs Cleveland ('The Shot' Part II) (http://youtu.be/pwW9XbwlV1o?t=5m44s)

Vs the KNicks (http://youtu.be/PgG9X0aZb_Q?t=5m15s)

Clutch as F*CK :bowdown:

not to get technical

http://photos.gleuch.com/data/assets/kanye_imma_bookmarklet.png

Wizards record the season before: 19-63

They were 26-21 by all star break when he was in the lineup (45 win pace), 30-30 overall with him, 7-15 (26 win pace) when he was out of the lineup. Before his knee injury, Jordan was one of only 2 players in the league averaging 25-5-5.

Defensively: 102.6 DRTG with him in, 106.9 DRTG with him out.

DonDadda59

01-24-2015, 01:59 AM

no he wasnt jordan was 21% fg in last 2 minutes of games within 5 points during in the 2002 season . he was very unclutch

Soooo... I actually just double-checked the stats and looks like we both made the same stupid mistake with the shot finder. Here is the REAL info about his shooting within the parameters you set above (within 5 points, last 2 mins of a game):

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/plus/shot_finder.cgi?request=1&player_id=jordami01&match=single&year_id=&is_playoffs=N&team_id=&opp_id=&game_num_min=0&game_num_max=99&game_month=&game_location=&game_result=&shot_pts=&is_make=&shot_type=&shot_distance_min=&shot_distance_max=&q1=Y&q2=Y&q3=Y&q4=Y&q5=Y&time_remain_minutes=2&time_remain_seconds=0&time_remain_comp=le&margin_min=-5&margin_max=5&c1stat=&c1comp=ge&c1val=&c2stat=&c2comp=ge&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=ge&c3val=&order_by=fg

42%, which is way above the league average (you can verify that, don't feel like it). With 30 seconds or less, he shot 50%. :bowdown:

For comparison sake, with 2 minutes within 5 points, Bean shot 27% this season. With 30 seconds or less, 18%. :eek:

juju151111

01-24-2015, 02:03 AM

Don with the Ether has usual.

juju151111

01-24-2015, 02:05 AM

Soooo... I actually just double-checked the stats and looks like we both made the same stupid mistake with the shot finder. Here is the REAL info about his shooting within the parameters you set above (within 5 points, last 2 mins of a game):

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/plus/shot_finder.cgi?request=1&player_id=jordami01&match=single&year_id=&is_playoffs=N&team_id=&opp_id=&game_num_min=0&game_num_max=99&game_month=&game_location=&game_result=&shot_pts=&is_make=&shot_type=&shot_distance_min=&shot_distance_max=&q1=Y&q2=Y&q3=Y&q4=Y&q5=Y&time_remain_minutes=2&time_remain_seconds=0&time_remain_comp=le&margin_min=-5&margin_max=5&c1stat=&c1comp=ge&c1val=&c2stat=&c2comp=ge&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=ge&c3val=&order_by=fg

42%, which is way above the league average (you can verify that, don't feel like it). With 30 seconds or less, he shot 50%. :bowdown:

For comparison sake, with 2 minutes within 5 points, Bean shot 27% this season. With 30 seconds or less, 18%. :eek:
:applause: Defense was better back then too. Lol

mehyaM24

01-24-2015, 02:17 AM

Wizards record the season before: 19-63

i was referencing the 2003 season - the year stackhouse also averaged over 20 points alongside jordan, but who's points actually were of value (e.g. net impact).

They were 26-21 by all star break when he was in the lineup (45 win pace), 30-30 overall with him, 7-15 (26 win pace) when he was out of the lineup. Before his knee injury, Jordan was one of only 2 players in the league averaging 25-5-5.

Defensively: 102.6 DRTG with him in, 106.9 DRTG with him out.

about 2002: the wizards were also 7-10 without hamilton, who missed games himself (around the time jordan did).

and here is why RAPM is important.

RAPM actually measures individual success, estimating how much impact YOU brought to the team. rip hamilton for example was a -0.6... and jordan you ask? guy wasn't any better. worse actually. a -0.7, which is actually a net NEGATIVE.

jordan missed games, and the team lost. but it wasn't because he missed games, as rapm suggests. there were multiple players on that wizards team who missed games as well, around the same time jordan did (hamilton being one along with guys like laettner, davis, jones, and lue).

if you have any more questions about RAPM and net positive/negatives, pm me.

3ball

01-24-2015, 02:36 AM

i was referencing the 2003 season - the year stackhouse also averaged over 20 points alongside jordan, but who's points actually were of value (e.g. net impact).

right, but 2002 is the year Jordan increased the Wizards wins by 18, and that's the year in question - that's the year Jordan had the 50 games of 25/6/5 and was a top 10 player, before he broke down and was done like Kobe is now.

Jordan still came back in 2003, but he wasn't the same... So those 50 games from 2002 is all that's important in the MJ/Kobe comparison.

mehyaM24

01-24-2015, 02:42 AM

right, but 2002 is the year Jordan increased the Wizards wins by 18, and that's the year in question - that's the year Jordan had the 50 games of 25/6/5 and was a top 10 player, before he broke down and was done like Kobe is now.

Jordan still came back in 2003, but he wasn't the same... So those 50 games from 2002 is all that's important in the MJ/Kobe comparison.
read the post above yours. i just got finished explaining why you cannot say jordan, and jordan alone, increased the wizards team's record.

there are a multitude of factors that go into play - a better and healthier rip hamilton being one, and doug collins' hire being another (just a few examples).

3ball

01-24-2015, 02:51 AM

read the post above yours. i just got finished explaining why you cannot say jordan, and jordan alone, increased the wizards team's record.

there are a multitude of factors that go into play - a better and healthier rip hamilton being one, and doug collins' hire being another (just a few examples).
Rip was such a massive civ defensively, it destroyed his DBPM, which coupled with his lower OBPM, made his BPM way lower than Jordan's.

as for Doug Collins - that's fine - he should get some credit for the 18 wins.. but he was hired by MJ.. :pimp:

Crose

01-24-2015, 03:02 AM

mehyaM24

01-24-2015, 03:04 AM

Rip was such a massive civ defensively, it destroyed his DBPM, which coupled with his lower OBPM, made his BPM way lower than Jordan's.

as for Doug Collins - that's fine - he should get some credit for the 18 wins.. but he was hired by MJ.. :pimp:
good call on the jordan hire, but doug still had to coach, and he was a pretty decent one. much better than "leonard hamilton" (who?) *also of note, rip hamilton had a higher RAPM than jordan that season.. a -0.6 to -0.7 advantage. near negligible, and still negative, but an advantage nonetheless.

juju151111

01-24-2015, 03:06 AM

good call on the jordan hire, but doug still had to coach, and he was a pretty decent one. much better than "leonard hamilton" (who?) *also of note, rip hamilton had a hire RAPM than jordan that season.. a -0.6 to -0.7 advantage. near negligible, and still negative, but an advantage nonetheless.
None of this shit matters. Mj led his team to a playoff pace before he was injured. Kobe can barely do shit. Kobe can barely put up a 40 pt games today let alone 50 like 38 year old mm did.

mehyaM24

01-24-2015, 03:12 AM

None of this shit matters. Mj led his team to a playoff pace before he was injured. Kobe can barely do shit. Kobe can barely put up a 40 pt games today let alone 50 like 38 year old mm did.
all of it matters. it's called making an impact in a TEAM sport.

for the record, i think wizards jordan was better than this year's kobe - but not by much.

juju151111

01-24-2015, 03:23 AM

all of it matters. it's called making an impact in a TEAM sport.

for the record, i think wizards jordan was better than this year's kobe - but not by much.
team record was better. Kobe has missed numerous GW this year to the point that Jeremy lin said others like GW too. Mj was hitting GW over great defender Shawn Marion. Mj had no lift at that age and missed dunks on fast break. Him being able to score 30-50 pts that era was telling. 98-05 was statically the toughest era defensively and it wasn't kind to guards. Yet a 38 year old with shot knees scores that much on IQ and Fadeaways

mehyaM24

01-24-2015, 03:26 AM

team record was better. Kobe has missed numerous GW this year to the point that Jeremy lin said others like GW too. Mj was hitting GW over great defender Shawn Marion. Mj had no lift at that age and missed dunks on fast break. Him being able to score 30-50 pts that era was telling. 98-05 was statically the toughest era defensively and it wasn't kind to guards. Yet a 38 year old with shot knees scores that much on IQ and Fadeaways
how large of a gap are you suggesting? i would put them in the same tier TBH.

3ball

01-24-2015, 03:34 AM

good call on the jordan hire, but doug still had to coach, and he was a pretty decent one. much better than "leonard hamilton" (who?) *also of note, rip hamilton had a higher RAPM than jordan that season.. a -0.6 to -0.7 advantage. near negligible, and still negative, but an advantage nonetheless.
http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/ratings/2002.html

my sources agree with yours about Jordan's RAPM of -0.7, but Hamilton's RAPM was -1.6.... As you'd expect, Jordan's impact was a lot better.

mehyaM24

01-24-2015, 03:37 AM

that was a typo on my part, 3ball. apologies. i meant to say chris whitney, their starting pointguard att.

:cheers:

3ball

01-24-2015, 03:40 AM

that was a typo on my part, 3ball. apologies. i meant to say chris whitney, their starting pointguard att.

:cheers:
no problem bud, your typo exposed the fallacies of RAPM in the end!!... :cheers:

so anyway, 2002 is the year Jordan increased the Wizards wins by 18, and that's the year in question - that's the year Jordan had the 50 games of 25/6/5 and was a top 10 player, before he broke down and was done like Kobe is now.

And he had 3 buzzer beaters/game winners that season alone if I'm not mistaken:

Vs Shawn Marion (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pjo06p5zchg)
Vs Cleveland ('The Shot' Part II) (http://youtu.be/pwW9XbwlV1o?t=5m44s)
Vs the KNicks over Spreewell (http://youtu.be/PgG9X0aZb_Q?t=5m15s)

and tons of great games, like 51 points on Baron Davis' (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-b5wYcGadw) Hornets, or 41 points, all on Shawn Marion (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pd9ayPlqCMg).
.