Carmelo Anthony vs. Adrian Dantley

[3ball]

I'm curious... what's the consensus here?

[TheMarkMadsen]

i'm curious, why did you make this thread

oh to try and confirm your belief that Lebron, KD, Melo and Pierce were jokes compared to the SF of the 90's..

[TheMarkMadsen]

jfc, you only listed the top 4.... and those guys easily fall short of previous eras anyway..

Just compare Melo to Adrian Dantley - these two guys were mainly scorers and not much else - Dantley had seasons where his OWS was 12.3, 11.9, 13.0, and 10.9... Melo's high is 8.1, and he's only had 3 seasons total over 6.0.

Dantley's overall WS/48 was 0.189 compared to Melo's 0.137..... and Dantley's career TS% was 61.7% with a 119 ORtg, compared to 54.7% TS and 108 for Melo.

IT'S NOT EVEN CLOSE


So just looking at your top 4 - Lebron, Durant, Melo, and Pierce - let's compare:

Bird>Lebron
Dantley>Melo
Pippen=Durant (defense, winning experience & acumen)
Dominique>Pierce (Nique had better stats, and he almost took Bird all by himself in 1988... what would he have done with Garnett & Allen?)

These are just the top 4.... and my main point was that previous eras were FAR DEEPER... if we look at the entire list, it becomes laughable... it really does - we end up having to compare guys like Kawhi Leonard to Bernard King, Alex English and Worthy... it's gets really, really bad.
.

holy shit how much help did jordan need?

spent his entire prime with an MVP player who also was an all defensive player every single year

[Kvnzhangyay]

3ball is seeming like one of those young teenagers that intern at my work that always say older eras are better than the newer eras :facepalm

[3ball]

3ball is seeming like one of those young teenagers that intern at my work that always say older eras are better than the newer eras :facepalm
I prove my assertions... you new fans say dumb shit like Melo is better than Dantley without having a ****ing clue...

[Uncle Drew]

Anthony, not close.

[navy]

Pippen is equal to Durant. My God.

[MellowYellow]

Melo, not close. Dantley wouldn't get anywhere close to #'s he got in the no d 80's in this era.

[3ball]

Both Melo and Dantley are primarily just scorers.

But Dantley had seasons where his OWS was 12.3, 11.9, 13.0, and 10.9... Melo's high is 8.1, and he's only had 3 seasons total over 6.0.

Dantley's overall WS/48 was 0.189 compared to Melo's 0.137.....

and Dantley's career TS% was 61.7% with a 119 ORtg, compared to 54.7% TS and 108 for Melo.

IT'S NOT EVEN CLOSE

[Kvnzhangyay]

Both Melo and Dantley are primarily just scorers.

But Dantley had seasons where his OWS was 12.3, 11.9, 13.0, and 10.9... Melo's high is 8.1, and he's only had 3 seasons total over 6.0.

Dantley's overall WS/48 was 0.189 compared to Melo's 0.137.....

and Dantley's career TS% was 61.7% with a 119 ORtg, compared to 54.7% TS and 108 for Melo.

IT'S NOT EVEN CLOSE

have you noticed you tend to cherrypick different arguments in different comparisons/stats, depending on which helps further your confirmation bias? If you said its close itd be fine with preferring Dantley (its arguable), but by saying it's not even close... :roll: :roll:

[3ball]

have you noticed you tend to cherrypick different stats in different comparisons, depending on which helps further your confirmation bias? If you said its close itd be fine with preferring Dantley (its arguable), but by saying it's not even close... :roll: :roll:
dude, since when is 0.189 WS/48 close to 0.137?... and that's ALL based on offense, since neither guy defended.

since when is 119 ORtg close to 108?

since when is a league-leading OWS that's 12 and 13, close to pedestrian numbers like 6 and 7?

since when is 61% CAREER TS%, anywhere near 54%?





and these are the relevant numbers because both players were just scorers.

[kunk75]

both played fat a lot so somewhat comparable

[DMAVS41]

The answer is almost always going to be not Carmelo.

[IncarceratedBob]

dude, since when is 0.189 WS/48 close to 0.137?... and that's ALL based on offense, since neither guy defended.

since when is 119 ORtg close to 108?

since when is a league-leading OWS that's 12 and 13, close to pedestrian numbers like 6 and 7?

since when is 61% CAREER TS%, anywhere near 54%?





and these are the relevant numbers because both players were just scorers.
Lol.. stats geek get laid. Also how about you watch the actual sport? I was 21 Dantleys rookie year, I saw his entire career and Melo is just better..

[Xiao Yao You]

Melo, not close. Dantley wouldn't get anywhere close to #'s he got in the no d 80's in this era.

He wouldn't have to get the numbers he got than to compare. I'd go with A.D. because I grew up on him and Anthony is a douchebag.

[Xiao Yao You]

both played fat a lot so somewhat comparable

Dantley was never fat. He was in great shape in his day.

[Marchesk]

AD

[3ball]

Lol.. stats geek get laid. Also how about you watch the actual sport? I was 21 Dantleys rookie year, I saw his entire career and Melo is just better..
I watch a lot of the game and Melo isn't that good... his game looks pretty and he's great 1-on-1, but that's it... he's just another chucker, whose teams are always bad.

AD was the same way as Melo, but his 1-on-1 game was just THAT much better... the stats back up how diverse AD's scoring game was - he had a 61.4% career TS% as a wing player... WITHOUT SHOOTING THREE-POINTERS.

[3ball]

.
Offensive win shares are based on how much offense a player produces over and above the average player... The average SF in Dantley's era, and Dantley's competition at SF was FAR superior to anything in Carmelo's era.

Dantley has 112 offensive win shares in 955 games.

Carmelo has 58 offensive win shares in 863 games.




NOT CLOSE
.

[Milbuck]

3ball no one gives a shit about your retarded ramblings about eras for wings. Klay Thompson singlehandedly shits on your argument.

[navy]

.
Offensive win shares are based on how much offense a player produces over and above the average player... The average SF in Dantley's era, and Dantley's competition at SF was FAR superior to anything in Carmelo's era.

Dantley has 112 offensive win shares in 955 games.

Carmelo has 58 offensive win shares in 863 games.




NOT CLOSE
.

Post Lebron and Birds offensive winshares and then throw away the stat.

[3ball]

3ball no one gives a shit about your retarded ramblings about eras for wings. Klay Thompson singlehandedly shits on your argument.
it's called an anomaly... also called a fluke.... look it up... that's why he only ended up with 52... :facepalm

[Milbuck]

it's called an anomaly... also called a fluke.... look it up... that's why he only ended up with 52... :facepalm
It's called being the greatest player of all time.

[Kvnzhangyay]

Post Lebron and Birds offensive winshares and then throw away the stat.

:lebronamazed: :lebronamazed:

[3ball]

Post Lebron and Birds offensive winshares and then throw away the stat.
you're right - most of the time, the stat doesn't work to compare players because the players being compared play different roles.

but in this case, both Dantley and Melo have played nearly exact roles for all the teams they've been on.

but look at the efficiency numbers - Dantley's career TS% and ORtg were 61% and 119, compared to 54% and 108 for Anthony.

the MASSIVE efficiency gap shown above is not a surprise if you watch the two play - Melo shoots a TON of jumpers and isn't as strong going to the hole... Dantley lived at the line by taking it strong against towers like Ralph Sampon, while Melo gets spacing and weaker at-rim defense.

[3ball]

Post Lebron and Birds offensive winshares and then throw away the stat.


It didn't occur to me that i should probably mention the obvious here as well - Bird had a better supporting cast so he didn't have to do as much as Lebron, so naturally his offensive win shares are lower.

This is why stats like offensive win share normally don't work to compare players directly to each other - the two players being compared must play the exact same roles on their respective teams, which is substantially never the case.

But for Dantley and Anthony, I think it IS the case - both guys were #1 options with little supporting help around them most of their careers... And under this scenario, Dantley's TS% and Ortg were 61% and 119, which dwarfs Anthony's 54% and 108.

The eye test confirms Dantley's superior strength attacking the basket and livelihood made at the line against the toughest paint defenses of all time, while Anthony settles for too many jumpshots in an era of spacing meant to make it easier to get to the rim... this is why Dantley's numbers were so much better.

[kNIOKAS]

Consensus is that we don't know Adrian Dantley...
'lax

[smoovegittar]

Biased post. Most of ISH hates on Melo, whether he wins 20 ships or none (and secretly wishing they had him on their team). Not a good question.

[Marchesk]

Dantley was a lot more efficient. But he didn't shoot threes, so ...

But even comparing their 2P%, you have:

Melo: 47.6%
Dantley: 54.1%

Lebron: 53.5%


Dantley was super efficient. And he could play for a contender. The Pistons lost in 7 tough games to the Celtics one year, and 7 close games to the Lakers the next year in the finals with Dantley as their leading scorer. The feud with Isiah is what got AD shipped out of town. The Pistons were on the brink of winning with him both years.

[LAZERUSS]

Dantley was a lot more efficient. But he didn't shoot threes, so ...

But even comparing their 2P%, you have:

Melo: 47.6%
Dantley: 54.1%

Lebron: 53.5%


Dantley was super efficient. And he could play for a contender. The Pistons lost in 7 tough games to the Celtics one year, and 7 close games to the Lakers the next year in the finals with Dantley as their leading scorer. The feud with Isiah is what got AD shipped out of town. The Pistons were on the brink of winning with him both years.

:cheers:

Dantley...and by a sizable margin.

[Marchesk]

That was a great Pistons team. They were contenders for five straight years, having to battle the Celtics, Lakers and Jordan's up and coming Bulls. That was probably a 4 time championship team in a slightly weaker period of competition.

[Moonbeam]

Dantley by a metric ton in the regular season, and a gigaton in the playoffs. Melo has an edge in rebounding, but what both of these guys are renowned for, scoring, Dantley actually has an argument as the GOAT, and Melo is merely good (but not special at all in the playoffs).

Not high on Melo at all. I don't even think he's a top 20 SF all-time.

[Moonbeam]

I'll borrow from a post I made earlier:

It may sound absurd to consider Dantley a top 5-10 scorer, but think about this:

Consider the direct scoreboard impact of a player's shooting versus what would be expected using league average efficiency, on a per 100 possession basis. I've called this Score+, and it's available since the 1951-52 season. Out of players with 5000+ career minutes, do you know how many rank ahead of Dantley? None.

Now consider replacing shot attempts not with league average efficiency, but league average efficiency at a player's position. With different rule changes, certain positions have had an easier time putting up efficiency baskets than others. I call this PosScore+, and again define it per 100 possessions. How many players are ahead of Dantley with at least 5000 MP? None.

Now replace shot attempts with average efficiency for a player's team, and again define it per 100 possessions. I call this one TeamScore+. How many players with at least 5000 MP rank ahead of Dantley? None.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...tmlview?pli=1#

The guy was crazy good at scoring. Check him out if you haven't. He won't jump out at you with flashy plays, but the guy had an incredible array of moves aided by pump fakes and amazing footwork.

To put numbers to it:

Career Score+:

Dantley: 4.283 (GOAT among players with at least 5000 MP)
Anthony: 0.704

Career PosScore+:

Dantley: 4.139 (GOAT among players with at least 5000 MP)
Anthony: 0.575

Career TeamScore+:

Dantley: 4.056 (GOAT among players with at least 5000 MP)
Anthony: 0.039

Playoff Score+:

Dantley: 3.565 (1985 on - likely higher if we include earlier postseasons)
Anthony: -0.478

Playoff O+ (relative ORating to what the defense allows):

Dantley: 9.76 (1985 on - again likely higher if we include earlier postseasons)
Anthony: 1.90

[Jacks3]

Dantely's scoring barely made any sort of positive impact on his teams. How can he possibly be the GOAT scorer? Absurd. Melo in 2013 and 2014 was better than Dantley ever was.

[Marchesk]

I don't know why people wouldn't consider Dantley one of the greatests scorers ever, at least in his prime. He had four consecutive seasons over 30 ppg where he averaged 56.7% from the field. How many players in history have done that?

It would be better to compare Durant to Dantley than Melo. AD is on that level, scoring wise.

[Marchesk]

Dantely's scoring barely made any sort of positive impact on his teams. How can he possibly be the GOAT scorer? Absurd. Melo in 2013 and 2014 was better than Dantley ever was.

Except when he lead the Pistons in scoring, right? You know, when he had a good team around him.

How is Melo's team doing last couple seasons?

[bizil]

For me I'm taking Melo. I like Melo's size and more complete scoring skillset. He's also a great rebounding SF capable of getting 8 boards a night. And he's just as good or better on defense than AD too. So for me it comes down to Melo's size and scoring skillset. But AD was a beast and I wouldn't complain AT ALL if somebody chose him! Melo's scoring skillset is right near the top along with guys like Bird, Kobe, Durant, and MJ.

[Moonbeam]

Dantely's scoring barely made any sort of positive impact on his teams. How can he possibly be the GOAT scorer? Absurd. Melo in 2013 and 2014 was better than Dantley ever was.

It had a huge impact. Dantley was an offensive force, and his teams greatly benefited from his scoring.

[Moonbeam]

For me I'm taking Melo. I like Melo's size and more complete scoring skillset. He's also a great rebounding SF capable of getting 8 boards a night. And he's just as good or better on defense than AD too. So for me it comes down to Melo's size and scoring skillset. But AD was a beast and I wouldn't complain AT ALL if somebody chose him! Melo's scoring skillset is right near the top along with guys like Bird, Kobe, Durant, and MJ.

If Melo had a more complete scoring skillset, why was Dantley so much more effective as a scorer? Melo's got a 3-pointer (he grew up when the 3-pointer had long been established), but that's about all I'd take him for as a scorer. Neither Dantley nor Melo are renowned defenders, but Dantley had some great defensive series in the playoffs with the Pistons, and was praised for his defense on Bird:

Source: http://archives.chicagotribune.com/1988/06/03/page/69/article/bad-backs-could-hurt-the-celtics" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



Larry Bird, meanwhile, who has shot just 37 percent in five games, continues to say his rhythm is off, but he did offer this assessment: "The officiating has been different in the playoffs and I don't think it's fair to anybody. You prepare during an 82-game season and then it's completely different. It's a tough adjustment."

But also giving Bird trouble, and for the second consecutive year and equally unnoticed by most, is noted scorer Adrian Dantley.

"I've never seen him player harder on defense in my life," said Laimbeer. "He's working so hard. He just wants it so bad."


Source: http://mitchalbom.com/d/journalism/535/latest-news-dantley-old-message-updated" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



Whatever the change, he was in for most of the crucial minutes Sunday, spinning, driving, bumping, and playing a defense that went unnoticed by many. Except Larry Bird, the guy he was covering. "Dantley did as good a job on Bird as Michael Cooper or Paul Pressey does," Celtics coach K.C. Jones said. "He was very tough."

And at times, even obstinate. Once in the first half when the Celtics brought in Darren Daye, Pistons coach Chuck Daly screamed to Dantley: "YOU GOT DAYE! LET SALLEY TAKE BIRD!"

And Dantley turned, scowl intact, and mouthed back, "I got Bird." And five seconds later, Daly signaled, never mind, you got Bird.


Source: http://articles.latimes.com/1988-06-08/sports/sp-3893_1_detroit-pistons" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



Dantley, a two-time NBA scoring champion, has always been known for his offense, but the Pistons say that he has concentrated on defense this season.

And Dantley's work ethic on defense was a key as the Pistons held the Lakers to 39.8% shooting from the floor.

"I've always played defense, but when people talk about me, they talk about my offense," Dantley said. "The last time I played this hard on defense was in the 1976 Olympics. Defense is how we've been winning all our games this year. We don't even think about offense."

Opponent Michael Cooper during the 1988 Finals: http://articles.philly.com/1988-06-12/sports/26266832_1_bad-rap-joe-dumars-defense" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



"His defense shocked me," said Cooper, who was an L.A. teammate of Dantley's for the 1978-79 season.

"He was never one to get his sneakers dirty on defense. Before, A.D. was about A.D. He was out to score his points. Now he's a team player. He's willing to sacrifice. He sees that the more you put into a team, the more you get out of it."

[bizil]

It had a huge impact. Dantley was an offensive force, and his teams greatly benefited from his scoring.

There's no doubt AD was a beast scorer and true alpha dog. If anything, that needs to be applauded because that's the most premium asset in basketball. I just think perception becomes reality sometimes. AD getting traded from the Pistons and losing out on two rings I think altered how he's seen. It was a personality conflict with Isiah AND NOT his performance that made him get traded.

And I may be in the minority, but I think AD was the guy who got the Pistons to title contender status. They already had a great one in Isiah, but they were still lacking something. Especially going against those superteams back in the day. AD gave the Pistons another alpha dog to go with Isiah. From there they built up their defense.

[Fire Colangelo]

I'd take Carmelo Anthony.

Adrian Dantley is great. Looking back on his accomplishments and his stats, he truly is great. But Dantley back in the days was never considered elite.

Post all the stats you want, whatever.

The fact is, the dude played for seven different teams in his career. He played on some great teams, but just never got anywhere. He couldn't lead his team anywhere in a weak conference when he had his own team, and he couldn't play second fiddle to elite players until after his prime ended.

He's one of those players whose departure benefited teams more than it hurt them.

I'm not so high on Anthony either, but he's considered a franchise player pretty much all of his career. He led his team to the playoffs for 10 straight years since his rookie year in a stronger conference and brought them to the WCF losing to the eventual champs. The same cannot be said for Dantley.

We can do hypotheticals all we want. Fact is, he couldn't get along with the best player on the Pistons, and got his ass shipped out for Mark Agguire, who the Pistons won with because Agguired played within the team system.

[bizil]

If Melo had a more complete scoring skillset, why was Dantley so much more effective as a scorer? Melo's got a 3-pointer (he grew up when the 3-pointer had long been established), but that's about all I'd take him for as a scorer. Neither Dantley nor Melo are renowned defenders, but Dantley had some great defensive series in the playoffs with the Pistons, and was praised for his defense on Bird:

Source: http://archives.chicagotribune.com/1988/06/03/page/69/article/bad-backs-could-hurt-the-celtics" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



Source: http://mitchalbom.com/d/journalism/535/latest-news-dantley-old-message-updated" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



Source: http://articles.latimes.com/1988-06-08/sports/sp-3893_1_detroit-pistons" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



Opponent Michael Cooper during the 1988 Finals: http://articles.philly.com/1988-06-12/sports/26266832_1_bad-rap-joe-dumars-defense" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


I'm talking MERELY scoring skillset. Melo is a much better three point shooter while AD NEVER was a threat from three ball. I NEVER said Melo was a better scorer! Scoring skillset means the areas of the floor u are effective when scoring the rock.

It doesn't matter if AD grew up with the three ball or not. It just so happens Melo has a better scoring skillset. That's a FACT!! Bird didn't grow up with three point shot EITHER!! But yet he's one of the greatest shooters of all time. So don't make excuses!! Jerry West shot three point distance shots ALL THE TIME before the line even existed. Magic, Dominiqque, etc. didn't grow up with the three points shot either. But over time, they adapted and became guys who would make over 100 three pointers in a given season. SO DON'T make excuses.

[Moonbeam]

I'd take Carmelo Anthony.

Adrian Dantley is great. Looking back on his accomplishments and his stats, he truly is great. But Dantley back in the days was never considered elite.

Post all the stats you want, whatever.

The fact is, the dude played for seven different teams in his career. He played on some great teams, but just never got anywhere. He couldn't lead his team anywhere in a weak conference when he had his own team, and he couldn't play second fiddle to elite players until after his prime ended.

He's one of those players whose departure benefited teams more than it hurt them.

I'm not so high on Anthony either, but he's considered a franchise player pretty much all of his career. He led his team to the playoffs for 10 straight years since his rookie year in a stronger conference and brought them to the WCF losing to the eventual champs. The same cannot be said for Dantley.

We can do hypotheticals all we want. Fact is, he couldn't get along with the best player on the Pistons, and got his ass shipped out for Mark Agguire, who the Pistons won with because Agguired played within the team system.

Adrian Dantley playing in Utah in the 1980s before media made it possible for any team to be seen anywhere had a lot to do with him not getting the exposure he should have had. The guy was still voted in as an All-Star starter several times - he was viewed as elite.

As for a comparison to Melo, in Denver Melo had much, much better teammates than Dantley in Utah.

Using a method I developed for calculating expected win shares based on a number of aging curves, Melo's teammates from 2004-2010 had an expected total win share contribution of 41.48 and an observed total win share contribution of 40.64. Dantley's teammates from 1980-1986 had an expected win share contribution of 25.27 win shares, and an observed total win share contribution of 23.61. That's a huge chasm.

In Detroit, Dantley did largely buy in to the system.

Source: http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1988 ... tley-guy/2


"I don't think the players appreciated as much as they should have how much he's adjusted for us," McCloskey said.

"I know I can do more, but I didn't want to let my ego get involved,"

Dantley said. "I've just kept my mouth shut and done my job."

He has continued to do his job in the playoffs, averaging 20 points, shooting 60 percent from the field and playing rugged, late-game defense that has helped the Pistons almost invariably win when they lead entering the last quarter.

"No one should ever underestimate this man's desire for a (championship) ring," Versace said. "You want a horse to ride in this league, and he`s ours."

[Moonbeam]

I'm talking MERELY scoring skillset. Melo is a much better three point shooter while AD NEVER was a threat from three ball. I NEVER said Melo was a better scorer! Scoring skillset means the areas of the floor u are effective when scoring the rock.

It doesn't matter if AD grew up with the three ball or not. It just so happens Melo has a better scoring skillset. That's a FACT!! Bird didn't grow up with three point shot EITHER!! But yet he's one of the greatest shooters of all time. So don't make excuses!! Jerry West shot three point distance shots ALL THE TIME before the line even existed. Magic, Dominiqque, etc. didn't grow up with the three points shot either. But over time, they adapted and became guys who would make over 100 three pointers in a given season. SO DON'T make excuses.

Dantley is a few years older than those guys, but you're right, I suppose he could have developed a 3-pointer. I guess my point should be that I don't think that Melo's wider scoring skillset is particularly valuable if it didn't result in him being nearly as effective of a scorer as Dantley.

[bizil]

Dantley is a few years older than those guys, but you're right, I suppose he could have developed a 3-pointer. I guess my point should be that I don't think that Melo's wider scoring skillset is particularly valuable if it didn't result in him being nearly as effective of a scorer as Dantley.

U are confused! The thing is Magic and Nique STILL DIDN'T GROW UP with the three point shot AT ALL!! The three point line came in the NBA in 1979-1980. And of course the ABA had it before them. But the NCAA didn't adopt the three point shoot until 1986.

High schools and elementary schools didn't have it till 1987. So all those 80's Golden Era legends grew up WITHOUT the three point shot!! AD being older HAS NO BEARING in the argument! And I mentioned Jerry West was shooting from three point range BEFORE the line existed in the 60's!

AD was a more efficient scorer than Melo. But that DOESN'T mean a better scorer in my book. AD had many years where he shot better from the field than Larry Bird. Was AD a better scorer than Bird? I dont think so.

If anything I consider them along with Melo as true alpha dogs. So for me, things like SCORING SKILLSET, clutch factor, mismatch potential, etc. could be a tiebreaker it I had to choose which guy I would prefer.

[Fire Colangelo]

It had a huge impact. Dantley was an offensive force, and his teams greatly benefited from his scoring.

Huge impact? Where?

Why did his 20PPG on 52% not impact the Braves when McAdoo went down with injury?

His 27PPG on 50% clearly didn't impact the Pacers much since they traded him within 23 games.

Lakers traded him after barely two seasons, and won a ring the year after they traded him.

First 4 seasons in Utah? Couldn't make the playoffs in a weak conference (granted he was injured in 83).

Finally made the playoffs in 84 as a 2nd seed with 45 wins :banana: . Beat a 38 win Nuggets team, and lost to a 41 win Suns team in the 2nd round.

Good year in 85, they knock off the almighty 48 win Rockets team in the first round and lose in the 2nd.

First round exit in 86.

Shipped out in 87, and the Jazz didn't lose a beat. (lol @ impact)

Two decent years in 87 and 88 with the Pistons as he played second fiddle to Isiah, reaching the ECF and Finals respectively.

Gets shipped out in 89 for Aguirre, and the Pistons would go on to win the Championship that year, and repeat in 1990.

Dat impact.

No teams needed Dantley's 30 PPG on 50%, that's why he was constantly traded. He was a journeyman FFS.

Why did the Jazz trade him, because he led them to mediocrity and interfered with the development of Malone.

Not only was he not a good 1st option, he's not even a great 2nd/3rd option, yet we're talking impact? What impact can you show me other than some BS win shares on a shitty team in a crappy conference?

[Fire Colangelo]

Adrian Dantley playing in Utah in the 1980s before media made it possible for any team to be seen anywhere had a lot to do with him not getting the exposure he should have had. The guy was still voted in as an All-Star starter several times - he was viewed as elite.

As for a comparison to Melo, in Denver Melo had much, much better teammates than Dantley in Utah.

Using a method I developed for calculating expected win shares based on a number of aging curves, Melo's teammates from 2004-2010 had an expected total win share contribution of 41.48 and an observed total win share contribution of 40.64. Dantley's teammates from 1980-1986 had an expected win share contribution of 25.27 win shares, and an observed total win share contribution of 23.61. That's a huge chasm.

Do your numbers account for conference strength?

[Xiao Yao You]

Huge impact? Where?

Why did his 20PPG on 52% not impact the Braves when McAdoo went down with injury?

His 27PPG on 50% clearly didn't impact the Pacers much since they traded him within 23 games.

Lakers traded him after barely two seasons, and won a ring the year after they traded him.

First 4 seasons in Utah? Couldn't make the playoffs in a weak conference (granted he was injured in 83).

Finally made the playoffs in 84 as a 2nd seed with 45 wins :banana: . Beat a 38 win Nuggets team, and lost to a 41 win Suns team in the 2nd round.

Good year in 85, they knock off the almighty 48 win Rockets team in the first round and lose in the 2nd.

First round exit in 86.

Shipped out in 87, and the Jazz didn't lose a beat. (lol @ impact)

Two decent years in 87 and 88 with the Pistons as he played second fiddle to Isiah, reaching the ECF and Finals respectively.

Gets shipped out in 89 for Aguirre, and the Pistons would go on to win the Championship that year, and repeat in 1990.

Dat impact.

No teams needed Dantley's 30 PPG on 50%, that's why he was constantly traded. He was a journeyman FFS.

Why did the Jazz trade him, because he led them to mediocrity and interfered with the development of Malone.

Not only was he not a good 1st option, he's not even a great 2nd/3rd option, yet we're talking impact? What impact can you show me other than some BS win shares on a shitty team in a crappy conference?

They traded him because he got into it with their shitty coach. They chose the shitty coach. The Jazz had never made the playoffs. He led them to the division title with those 45 wins after winning 30 the year before. Started a playoff streak that didn't end until the 21st century! Can only imagine what him, Malone and Stockton could have done together. :cry:

Pistons win if they don't trade him for Aguirre. He was a rookie when McAdoo went down? Lakers won because of the first round pick they got from the Jazz for Goodrich(Magic Johnson).

[Marchesk]

AD was a more efficient scorer than Melo. But that DOESN'T mean a better scorer in my book. AD had many years where he shot better from the field than Larry Bird. Was AD a better scorer than Bird? I dont think so. .

Yeah, Dantley was a better scorer than Bird. Bird was the better player, obviously. But we're just talking about pure scoring ability. Four straight years of 30 ppg on 56.7% speaks for itself. The only person in the 80s who was a better scorer than Dantley was MJ.

[Marchesk]

Two decent years in 87 and 88 with the Pistons as he played second fiddle to Isiah, reaching the ECF and Finals respectively.

Two decent years? Jesus Christ. They were going against a healthy Celtics and Lakers teams, losing in close 7 game series where a foul call on Lambier and lazy pass by Rodman were the difference (leading to ridiculous comments about Bird's athleticism).

And Dantley was their leading scorer. They won after that because the Celtics and Lakers were never the same again, and Jordan's teammates weren't up to the task at that time.

[Moonbeam]

U are confused! The thing is Magic and Nique STILL DIDN'T GROW UP with the three point shot AT ALL!! The three point line came in the NBA in 1979-1980. And of course the ABA had it before them. But the NCAA didn't adopt the three point shoot until 1986.

High schools and elementary schools didn't have it till 1987. So all those 80's Golden Era legends grew up WITHOUT the three point shot!! AD being older HAS NO BEARING in the argument! And I mentioned Jerry West was shooting from three point range BEFORE the line existed in the 60's!

AD was a more efficient scorer than Melo. But that DOESN'T mean a better scorer in my book. AD had many years where he shot better from the field than Larry Bird. Was AD a better scorer than Bird? I dont think so.

If anything I consider them along with Melo as true alpha dogs. So for me, things like SCORING SKILLSET, clutch factor, mismatch potential, etc. could be a tiebreaker it I had to choose which guy I would prefer.

I absolutely think Dantley is a better scorer than Bird. I think Bird's a far better offensive player than Dantley overall, though, because of what else he can do.

[Moonbeam]

Do your numbers account for conference strength?

No, but I don't think they'd impact it that much. We're talking about SRS differences generally around 0.5-1, so maybe up to 4 wins or so different.

[Moonbeam]

Huge impact? Where?

Why did his 20PPG on 52% not impact the Braves when McAdoo went down with injury?

His 27PPG on 50% clearly didn't impact the Pacers much since they traded him within 23 games.

Lakers traded him after barely two seasons, and won a ring the year after they traded him.

First 4 seasons in Utah? Couldn't make the playoffs in a weak conference (granted he was injured in 83).

Finally made the playoffs in 84 as a 2nd seed with 45 wins :banana: . Beat a 38 win Nuggets team, and lost to a 41 win Suns team in the 2nd round.

Good year in 85, they knock off the almighty 48 win Rockets team in the first round and lose in the 2nd.

First round exit in 86.

Shipped out in 87, and the Jazz didn't lose a beat. (lol @ impact)

Two decent years in 87 and 88 with the Pistons as he played second fiddle to Isiah, reaching the ECF and Finals respectively.

Gets shipped out in 89 for Aguirre, and the Pistons would go on to win the Championship that year, and repeat in 1990.

Dat impact.

No teams needed Dantley's 30 PPG on 50%, that's why he was constantly traded. He was a journeyman FFS.

Why did the Jazz trade him, because he led them to mediocrity and interfered with the development of Malone.

Not only was he not a good 1st option, he's not even a great 2nd/3rd option, yet we're talking impact? What impact can you show me other than some BS win shares on a shitty team in a crappy conference?

Dantley wasn't that great in Buffalo or LA. He came into his own in Utah. If you look at team stats with and without Dantley in Utah, you'll see dramatic differences in their offensive performance. Utah's offense was by far the worst in the league in the 60 games without Dantley in 1983, and also horrible in 1985 during the 27 games he didn't play. When I'm not on my phone I can dig up some numbers.

As far as Detroit, his offense helped keep the Pistons afloat in the playoffs. Can post some numbers about that, too.

[Marchesk]

I absolutely think Dantley is a better scorer than Bird. I think Bird's a far better offensive player than Dantley overall, though, because of what else he can do.

Exactly.

[Moonbeam]

Two decent years? Jesus Christ. They were going against a healthy Celtics and Lakers teams, losing in close 7 game series where a foul call on Lambier and lazy pass by Rodman were the difference (leading to ridiculous comments about Bird's athleticism).

And Dantley was their leading scorer. They won after that because the Celtics and Lakers were never the same again, and Jordan's teammates weren't up to the task at that time.

Don't forget that Detroit was winning Game 7 against Boston in 1987 before Dantley went out at the end o the 3rd for a concussion from diving to the floor for a loose ball. Adrian Dantley! Diving for a loose ball!

[Marchesk]

Don't forget that Detroit was winning Game 7 against Boston in 1987 before Dantley went out at the end o the 3rd for a concussion from diving to the floor for a loose ball. Adrian Dantley! Diving for a loose ball!

I remember watching that. Had forgotten. They were doing well until Dantley went down. Was disappointed. How I hated the Celtics in those days. Now I appreciate how good they were.

[tontoz]

Kinda off topic but i see Dantley at my gym all the time. when i first started going there i was looking at him thinking this guy looks familiar but i couldn't place him.

Then i saw a local story that he had taken a job as a school crossing guard to get county benefits. Apparently his NBA pension doesn't include benefits.

[bizil]

Yeah, Dantley was a better scorer than Bird. Bird was the better player, obviously. But we're just talking about pure scoring ability. Four straight years of 30 ppg on 56.7% speaks for itself. The only person in the 80s who was a better scorer than Dantley was MJ.

In terms of scoring, TWO THINGS to consider! For starters, Bird played on very talented offensive teams, WAY MORE than Dantley EVER DID! Bird was splitting the pie with McHale, Parish, and DJ. So he didn't have to put up as many points as AD did for a team to dominate. Secondly, Bird is the greatest passing forward of all time. A WAY BETTER passer than AD ever was.

So Bird would drop more dimes INSTEAD of actually scoring himself! With the factors I stated, that DOESN'T mean Dantley is a better scorer. IF ANYTHING they are even and it comes down to a matter of taste. I would RATHER have MJ, Bird, and Bernard OVER AD AS my top scorer. WHY? Because I prefer their style of scoring OVER AD's.

It's not a stretch AT ALL to put them on AD's level of scoring. Secondly, ALL OF THOSE GUYS are more difficult matchcups than AD in my opinion. I would take my chances on stopping AD OVER Bird, MJ, or King. Bird is GREAT at basically all areas of scoring. So for me, give me Bird has my dominant scorer over AD!. I'm talking scoring or all around game, give me Bird! Once again, I feel they are on the same level in terms of scoring. I just prefer Bird's scoring skillset over AD's. WHICH can be a tiebreaker in my opinion if I have to make a decision.

Have u considered Bird was THE ULTIMATE alpha dog who played with a GREAT TEAM as well. AD NEVER had to split the scoring pie the way Bird did on Boston. I say Bird could have EASILY scored 30 points per game four straight years! And shooting percentage can be a somewhat overrated stat.

[houston]

melo better player

[3ball]

looks like the conversation has turned from dantley vs. anthony.... to dantley vs. bird.

this is probably the best evidence that dantley > anthony.... :confusedshrug:

mf's itt looked at dantley's stats, saw how much better they were, and decided that bird would be a better comparison.

indeed, dantley's stats are SO FAR superior to anthony's, that anyone can easily deduce dantley was better.

......along with the eye test showing dantley was the far stronger inside player, while carmelo is primarily a jumpshooter... and a vastly less efficient one at that.
.

[Moonbeam]

In terms of scoring, TWO THINGS to consider! For starters, Bird played on very talented offensive teams, WAY MORE than Dantley EVER DID! Bird was splitting the pie with McHale, Parish, and DJ. So he didn't have to put up as many points as AD did for a team to dominate.

That's because Bird was all around more dominant on offense, not because he was a better scorer. The other side of this coin is that AD had very, very little offensive help in Utah. Opposing teams knew Dantley would be the biggest threat, and he sliced and diced them anyway, double teams and all.

Also, consider that Bird's very best scoring seasons were 1987 and 1988. In the regular season, he put up a Score+ of 4.052 and 4.327 in those years. While in Detroit on a much reduced volume in 1987 and 1988, Dantley still put up a Score+ of 3.757 and 4.116, almost as good as Bird at his peak. So even in a team with other offensive weapons like Detroit, Dantley could also be super-effective as a scorer.


Secondly, Bird is the greatest passing forward of all time. A WAY BETTER passer than AD ever was.

You won't get an argument from me there. Bird was in a completely different stratosphere to Dantley as a player. They had some pretty epic battles in the playoffs, though, and Dantley more than held his own.


So Bird would drop more dimes INSTEAD of actually scoring himself! With the factors I stated, that DOESN'T mean Dantley is a better scorer. IF ANYTHING they are even and it comes down to a matter of taste. I would RATHER have MJ, Bird, and Bernard OVER AD AS my top scorer. WHY? Because I prefer their style of scoring OVER AD's.

I'd definitely take MJ and Bird over Dantley, without question, both offensively and defensively. I still think Dantley's a better scorer than Bird, though. He was the focus of other teams, and he still was unstoppable.


It's not a stretch AT ALL to put them on AD's level of scoring. Secondly, ALL OF THOSE GUYS are more difficult matchcups than AD in my opinion. I would take my chances on stopping AD OVER Bird, MJ, or King. Bird is GREAT at basically all areas of scoring. So for me, give me Bird has my dominant scorer over AD!. I'm talking scoring or all around game, give me Bird! Once again, I feel they are on the same level in terms of scoring. I just prefer Bird's scoring skillset over AD's. WHICH can be a tiebreaker in my opinion if I have to make a decision.

It's fair enough to prefer Bird's game, but the data suggests that Dantley was a better scorer, that's all. Not a better offensive player, but a better scorer.

Awhile ago, I compared head-to-head statistics for the best 80s SFs (Bird, Erving, Aguirre, Dantley, English, Marques Johnson, King, Wilkins and Worthy) in seasons where they averaged at least 28 MPG, and you can see the resulting spreadsheet here (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1p1o-2YgPK6DELG9Cshmoo65nqewz4nENA-lmwWqugm4/edit#gid=1276286656) with all of the head-to-head matchups as well as a combination within seasons.

Larry Bird:

As expected, Bird enjoyed great team success against the competition, sporting a .605 winning percentage. He outscored his opponents by about a point on TS 2% better than his opponents (since 1982), and had massive advantages in rebounds and assists, as you would expect. Interestingly, both his TS and his opponents' TS dropped by more than 2% from their respective averages.



Player Year W L Vs. Exp PPG Rel RPG Rel APG Rel TS Rel
Bird 1980 11 7 -0.62 22.78 +1.50 NA NA NA NA NA NA
Top SFs 1980 7 11 +0.62 26.00 +1.85 NA NA NA NA NA NA
Bird 1981 14 10 -0.08 23.13 +1.89 NA NA NA NA NA NA
Top SFs 1981 10 14 +0.08 24.38 +0.49 NA NA NA NA NA NA
Bird 1982 13 9 +2.22 21.09 -1.78 NA NA NA NA .4644* -.0925
Top SFs 1982 9 13 -2.22 22.18 -1.34 NA NA NA NA .5470* -.0425
Bird 1983 19 13 +1.60 23.38 -0.26 NA NA NA NA .5412 -.0194
Top SFs 1983 13 19 -1.60 20.19 -1.11 NA NA NA NA .5145 -.0361
Bird 1984 29 18 -0.97 24.49 +0.34 NA NA NA NA .5533 +.0010
Top SFs 1984 18 29 +0.97 23.04 +0.97 NA NA NA NA .5511 -.0253
Bird 1985 23 11 +0.51 27.29 -1.39 NA NA NA NA .5731 -.0121
Top SFs 1985 11 23 -0.51 22.97 +0.14 NA NA NA NA .5265 -.0320
Bird 1986 22 4 +0.57 25.54 -0.25 9.88 +0.07 7.23 +0.44 .5735 -.0068
Top SFs 1986 4 22 -0.57 25.19 -0.38 5.54 -0.81 3.38 +0.25 .5349 -.0196
Bird 1987 18 15 -0.98 26.09 -1.96 9.30 +0.09 7.64 -0.01 .5831 -.0285
Top SFs 1987 15 18 +0.98 23.97 +1.81 4.24 -0.79 3.03 +0.23 .5638 -.0058
Bird 1988 19 16 -1.11 26.34 -3.59 8.89 -0.36 6.06 -0.09 .5722 -.0356
Top SFs 1988 16 19 +1.11 22.43 -1.41 4.11 -0.67 2.66 -0.27 .5297 -.0287
Bird 1989 0 1 -9.61 24.00 +4.67 10.00 +3.83 6.00 +1.17 .6682 +.1520
Top SFs 1989 1 0 +9.61 31.00 +12.62 4.00 +0.10 5.00 +2.79 .7033 +.0898
Bird 1990 5 7 -1.44 23.92 -0.35 10.58 +1.09 6.50 -0.99 .5383 -.0072
Top SFs 1990 7 5 +1.44 21.92 -0.95 3.25 -2.15 2.92 -0.51 .5119 -.0398
Bird 1991 4 3 +1.16 15.29 -4.11 7.86 -0.63 7.71 +0.53 .4646 -.0657
Top SFs 1991 3 4 -1.16 20.14 -5.85 5.71 -1.53 2.29 -1.39 .5029 -.0390
Bird 1992 1 2 -8.98 16.67 -3.51 7.67 -1.98 6.00 -0.80 .4941 -.0534
Top SFs 1992 2 1 +8.98 28.00 +2.65 5.67 -0.90 4.00 -0.06 .5271 -.0032
Bird Total 178 116 -0.15 24.39 -0.82 9.32 -0.01 6.91 -0.01 .5560 -.0209
Top SFs Total 116 178 +0.15 23.13 -0.00 4.51 -0.94 2.98 -0.07 .5368 -.0260


Adrian Dantley:

As you might expect, Dantley has the largest scoring margin of the 9 players considered here, outgunning his opponents by over 3 PPG on nearly 8% better TS. Team success in Utah was predictably poor (particularly 1985 and 1986), though not relative to SRS expectations. In fact, his teams tended to outperform their SRS expectations against this set of opponents. Most surprising may be that his opponents' scoring average was more than a point less than their respective season averages overall, and while his time in Detroit did contribute to that, his opponents weren't going crazy on him in Utah, even prior to the Jazz becoming good on defense in 1983. He loses out on rebounds and assists, though I imagine this is somewhat distorted by the fact the data is mostly available after he assumed a reduced role in Detroit and Dallas.



Player Year W L Vs. Exp PPG Rel RPG Rel APG Rel TS Rel
Dantley 1977 2 1 +9.35 19.00 -1.31 NA NA NA NA NA NA
Top SFs 1977 1 2 -9.35 14.67 -6.92 NA NA NA NA NA NA
Dantley 1978 8 3 +0.86 21.64 +0.29 NA NA NA NA NA NA
Top SFs 1978 3 8 -0.86 18.82 -2.47 NA NA NA NA NA NA
Dantley 1979 9 4 +3.69 20.92 +3.59 NA NA NA NA NA NA
Top SFs 1979 4 9 -3.69 18.08 -2.96 NA NA NA NA NA NA
Dantley 1980 4 7 +0.88 27.82 -0.17 NA NA NA NA NA NA
Top SFs 1980 7 4 -0.88 21.91 +0.57 NA NA NA NA NA NA
Dantley 1981 6 10 +3.14 34.69 +4.04 NA NA NA NA NA NA
Top SFs 1981 10 6 -3.14 21.44 -1.22 NA NA NA NA NA NA
Dantley 1982 8 14 +0.36 33.36 +3.03 NA NA NA NA NA NA
Top SFs 1982 14 8 -0.36 23.45 +1.21 NA NA NA NA NA NA
Dantley 1983 2 3 -4.60 32.40 +1.67 NA NA NA NA .7066* +.0453
Top SFs 1983 3 2 +4.60 26.80 +2.86 NA NA NA NA .5618* +.0052
Dantley 1984 12 18 -2.63 31.13 +0.53 NA NA NA NA .6495 -.0025
Top SFs 1984 18 12 +2.63 24.07 +0.17 NA NA NA NA .5593 -.0108
Dantley 1985 8 16 +0.45 25.21 -1.37 NA NA NA NA .6092 +.0019
Top SFs 1985 16 8 -0.45 24.42 -0.32 NA NA NA NA .5601 +.0019
Dantley 1986 5 17 -0.68 29.18 -0.65 6.00 +0.80 3.82 +0.34 .6256 -.0030
Top SFs 1986 17 5 +0.68 20.95 -2.28 5.82 -0.09 3.73 -0.20 .5434 -.0221
Dantley 1987 18 13 +5.17 20.68 -0.83 4.29 +0.19 2.03 +0.03 .6055 -.0087
Top SFs 1987 13 18 -5.17 24.29 -1.57 7.03 +0.35 4.52 -0.24 .5360 -.0313
Dantley 1988 19 17 +0.08 20.00 +0.00 3.69 +0.40 2.06 -0.42 .6187 -.0003
Top SFs 1988 17 19 -0.08 22.00 -2.38 6.94 +0.56 4.36 +0.06 .5432 -.0284
Dantley 1989 11 6 +5.00 19.53 +0.38 3.71 -0.62 1.82 -0.52 .6050 +.0243
Top SFs 1989 6 11 -5.00 21.00 -1.63 6.12 +0.51 3.00 -0.49 .5164 -.0211
Dantley 1990 3 4 +1.63 18.57 +3.86 4.29 +0.46 1.00 -0.78 .6088 +.0532
Top SFs 1990 4 3 -1.63 20.29 -1.07 5.43 +0.36 4.43 +0.93 .5136 -.0382
Dantley Total 115 133 +1.24 25.52 +0.64 4.35 +0.27 2.29 -0.18 .6245 +.0033
Top SFs Total 133 115 -1.24 22.31 -1.13 6.53 +0.36 4.08 -0.10 .5458 -.0179


So I think Dantley was the more effective scorer.

My praise of Dantley for his scoring comes largely from the combination of heavy volume and super-elite efficiency, in conjunction with the fact that in Utah, his teammates did not offer much relief to draw attention away from defenders. Bird was a great scorer, too, but I think Dantley was better. That's the only area in which I'd pick Dantley, though.

[HomieWeMajor]

Give me Adrian Dantley. Atleast he was efficient at stat padding.

[bizil]

That's because Bird was all around more dominant on offense, not because he was a better scorer. The other side of this coin is that AD had very, very little offensive help in Utah. Opposing teams knew Dantley would be the biggest threat, and he sliced and diced them anyway, double teams and all.

Also, consider that Bird's very best scoring seasons were 1987 and 1988. In the regular season, he put up a Score+ of 4.052 and 4.327 in those years. While in Detroit on a much reduced volume in 1987 and 1988, Dantley still put up a Score+ of 3.757 and 4.116, almost as good as Bird at his peak. So even in a team with other offensive weapons like Detroit, Dantley could also be super-effective as a scorer.



You won't get an argument from me there. Bird was in a completely different stratosphere to Dantley as a player. They had some pretty epic battles in the playoffs, though, and Dantley more than held his own.



I'd definitely take MJ and Bird over Dantley, without question, both offensively and defensively. I still think Dantley's a better scorer than Bird, though. He was the focus of other teams, and he still was unstoppable.



It's fair enough to prefer Bird's game, but the data suggests that Dantley was a better scorer, that's all. Not a better offensive player, but a better scorer.

Awhile ago, I compared head-to-head statistics for the best 80s SFs (Bird, Erving, Aguirre, Dantley, English, Marques Johnson, King, Wilkins and Worthy) in seasons where they averaged at least 28 MPG, and you can see the resulting spreadsheet here (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1p1o-2YgPK6DELG9Cshmoo65nqewz4nENA-lmwWqugm4/edit#gid=1276286656) with all of the head-to-head matchups as well as a combination within seasons.

Larry Bird:

As expected, Bird enjoyed great team success against the competition, sporting a .605 winning percentage. He outscored his opponents by about a point on TS 2% better than his opponents (since 1982), and had massive advantages in rebounds and assists, as you would expect. Interestingly, both his TS and his opponents' TS dropped by more than 2% from their respective averages.



Player Year W L Vs. Exp PPG Rel RPG Rel APG Rel TS Rel
Bird 1980 11 7 -0.62 22.78 +1.50 NA NA NA NA NA NA
Top SFs 1980 7 11 +0.62 26.00 +1.85 NA NA NA NA NA NA
Bird 1981 14 10 -0.08 23.13 +1.89 NA NA NA NA NA NA
Top SFs 1981 10 14 +0.08 24.38 +0.49 NA NA NA NA NA NA
Bird 1982 13 9 +2.22 21.09 -1.78 NA NA NA NA .4644* -.0925
Top SFs 1982 9 13 -2.22 22.18 -1.34 NA NA NA NA .5470* -.0425
Bird 1983 19 13 +1.60 23.38 -0.26 NA NA NA NA .5412 -.0194
Top SFs 1983 13 19 -1.60 20.19 -1.11 NA NA NA NA .5145 -.0361
Bird 1984 29 18 -0.97 24.49 +0.34 NA NA NA NA .5533 +.0010
Top SFs 1984 18 29 +0.97 23.04 +0.97 NA NA NA NA .5511 -.0253
Bird 1985 23 11 +0.51 27.29 -1.39 NA NA NA NA .5731 -.0121
Top SFs 1985 11 23 -0.51 22.97 +0.14 NA NA NA NA .5265 -.0320
Bird 1986 22 4 +0.57 25.54 -0.25 9.88 +0.07 7.23 +0.44 .5735 -.0068
Top SFs 1986 4 22 -0.57 25.19 -0.38 5.54 -0.81 3.38 +0.25 .5349 -.0196
Bird 1987 18 15 -0.98 26.09 -1.96 9.30 +0.09 7.64 -0.01 .5831 -.0285
Top SFs 1987 15 18 +0.98 23.97 +1.81 4.24 -0.79 3.03 +0.23 .5638 -.0058
Bird 1988 19 16 -1.11 26.34 -3.59 8.89 -0.36 6.06 -0.09 .5722 -.0356
Top SFs 1988 16 19 +1.11 22.43 -1.41 4.11 -0.67 2.66 -0.27 .5297 -.0287
Bird 1989 0 1 -9.61 24.00 +4.67 10.00 +3.83 6.00 +1.17 .6682 +.1520
Top SFs 1989 1 0 +9.61 31.00 +12.62 4.00 +0.10 5.00 +2.79 .7033 +.0898
Bird 1990 5 7 -1.44 23.92 -0.35 10.58 +1.09 6.50 -0.99 .5383 -.0072
Top SFs 1990 7 5 +1.44 21.92 -0.95 3.25 -2.15 2.92 -0.51 .5119 -.0398
Bird 1991 4 3 +1.16 15.29 -4.11 7.86 -0.63 7.71 +0.53 .4646 -.0657
Top SFs 1991 3 4 -1.16 20.14 -5.85 5.71 -1.53 2.29 -1.39 .5029 -.0390
Bird 1992 1 2 -8.98 16.67 -3.51 7.67 -1.98 6.00 -0.80 .4941 -.0534
Top SFs 1992 2 1 +8.98 28.00 +2.65 5.67 -0.90 4.00 -0.06 .5271 -.0032
Bird Total 178 116 -0.15 24.39 -0.82 9.32 -0.01 6.91 -0.01 .5560 -.0209
Top SFs Total 116 178 +0.15 23.13 -0.00 4.51 -0.94 2.98 -0.07 .5368 -.0260


Adrian Dantley:

As you might expect, Dantley has the largest scoring margin of the 9 players considered here, outgunning his opponents by over 3 PPG on nearly 8% better TS. Team success in Utah was predictably poor (particularly 1985 and 1986), though not relative to SRS expectations. In fact, his teams tended to outperform their SRS expectations against this set of opponents. Most surprising may be that his opponents' scoring average was more than a point less than their respective season averages overall, and while his time in Detroit did contribute to that, his opponents weren't going crazy on him in Utah, even prior to the Jazz becoming good on defense in 1983. He loses out on rebounds and assists, though I imagine this is somewhat distorted by the fact the data is mostly available after he assumed a reduced role in Detroit and Dallas.



Player Year W L Vs. Exp PPG Rel RPG Rel APG Rel TS Rel
Dantley 1977 2 1 +9.35 19.00 -1.31 NA NA NA NA NA NA
Top SFs 1977 1 2 -9.35 14.67 -6.92 NA NA NA NA NA NA
Dantley 1978 8 3 +0.86 21.64 +0.29 NA NA NA NA NA NA
Top SFs 1978 3 8 -0.86 18.82 -2.47 NA NA NA NA NA NA
Dantley 1979 9 4 +3.69 20.92 +3.59 NA NA NA NA NA NA
Top SFs 1979 4 9 -3.69 18.08 -2.96 NA NA NA NA NA NA
Dantley 1980 4 7 +0.88 27.82 -0.17 NA NA NA NA NA NA
Top SFs 1980 7 4 -0.88 21.91 +0.57 NA NA NA NA NA NA
Dantley 1981 6 10 +3.14 34.69 +4.04 NA NA NA NA NA NA
Top SFs 1981 10 6 -3.14 21.44 -1.22 NA NA NA NA NA NA
Dantley 1982 8 14 +0.36 33.36 +3.03 NA NA NA NA NA NA
Top SFs 1982 14 8 -0.36 23.45 +1.21 NA NA NA NA NA NA
Dantley 1983 2 3 -4.60 32.40 +1.67 NA NA NA NA .7066* +.0453
Top SFs 1983 3 2 +4.60 26.80 +2.86 NA NA NA NA .5618* +.0052
Dantley 1984 12 18 -2.63 31.13 +0.53 NA NA NA NA .6495 -.0025
Top SFs 1984 18 12 +2.63 24.07 +0.17 NA NA NA NA .5593 -.0108
Dantley 1985 8 16 +0.45 25.21 -1.37 NA NA NA NA .6092 +.0019
Top SFs 1985 16 8 -0.45 24.42 -0.32 NA NA NA NA .5601 +.0019
Dantley 1986 5 17 -0.68 29.18 -0.65 6.00 +0.80 3.82 +0.34 .6256 -.0030
Top SFs 1986 17 5 +0.68 20.95 -2.28 5.82 -0.09 3.73 -0.20 .5434 -.0221
Dantley 1987 18 13 +5.17 20.68 -0.83 4.29 +0.19 2.03 +0.03 .6055 -.0087
Top SFs 1987 13 18 -5.17 24.29 -1.57 7.03 +0.35 4.52 -0.24 .5360 -.0313
Dantley 1988 19 17 +0.08 20.00 +0.00 3.69 +0.40 2.06 -0.42 .6187 -.0003
Top SFs 1988 17 19 -0.08 22.00 -2.38 6.94 +0.56 4.36 +0.06 .5432 -.0284
Dantley 1989 11 6 +5.00 19.53 +0.38 3.71 -0.62 1.82 -0.52 .6050 +.0243
Top SFs 1989 6 11 -5.00 21.00 -1.63 6.12 +0.51 3.00 -0.49 .5164 -.0211
Dantley 1990 3 4 +1.63 18.57 +3.86 4.29 +0.46 1.00 -0.78 .6088 +.0532
Top SFs 1990 4 3 -1.63 20.29 -1.07 5.43 +0.36 4.43 +0.93 .5136 -.0382
Dantley Total 115 133 +1.24 25.52 +0.64 4.35 +0.27 2.29 -0.18 .6245 +.0033
Top SFs Total 133 115 -1.24 22.31 -1.13 6.53 +0.36 4.08 -0.10 .5458 -.0179


So I think Dantley was the more effective scorer.

My praise of Dantley for his scoring comes largely from the combination of heavy volume and super-elite efficiency, in conjunction with the fact that in Utah, his teammates did not offer much relief to draw attention away from defenders. Bird was a great scorer, too, but I think Dantley was better. That's the only area in which I'd pick Dantley, though.

But why do u gloss over the supporting casts that Bird has played with in comparison to AD! Bird played with McHale, Parish, and DJ. THREE HOFers in his prime-peak years! Bird was splitting the scoring pie with them! If Bird was on a team where he HAD to put up 30 points on great efficiency, HE COULD HAVE. That's bottom line! AD HAD to score those points for those Utah teams to have a chance!

I'm sorry, I CAN'T sit here and say AD is a better scorer than Bird. I think they are on the same level. IF I HAD TO CHOOSE, I would take Bird. Great shooter from anywhere, deadly in the paint, and ALWAYS has a size advantage as the SF position. But as I stated earlier, its more about Bird's scoring skillset, size advantage, and clutch factor. Both are EPIC ALPHA DOGS though!

And Bird was the NUMBER ONE FOCUS of defenses AS SOON as he came to Boston! He just had great scoring help over time so he was SMART ENOUGH to utilize his weapons. But Bird was EASILY capable of putting up the numbers that AD in Utah scoring wise! He was splitting the pie with a great supporting cast! And still getting 30 points a night on the Celtics in a given season with THAT HELP!

So basically, u would RATHER have AD willing your team to victory down the stretch than Bird in terms of scoring RIGHT! I mean since u think he's a better scorer AM I CORRECT IN MY ASSUMPTION? Sorry but give me Larry Legend over AD! Scoring wise, I prefer Bird's skillset and clutch gene over AD!

[Moonbeam]

But why do u gloss over the supporting casts that Bird has played with in comparison to AD! Bird played with McHale, Parish, and DJ. THREE HOFers in his prime-peak years! Bird was splitting the scoring pie with them! If Bird was on a team where he HAD to put up 30 points on great efficiency, HE COULD HAVE. That's bottom line! AD HAD to score those points for those Utah teams to have a chance!

I'm sorry, I CAN'T sit here and say AD is a better scorer than Bird. I think they are on the same level. IF I HAD TO CHOOSE, I would take Bird. Great shooter from anywhere, deadly in the paint, and ALWAYS has a size advantage as the SF position. But as I stated earlier, its more about Bird's scoring skillset, size advantage, and clutch factor. Both are EPIC ALPHA DOGS though!

And Bird was the NUMBER ONE FOCUS of defenses AS SOON as he came to Boston! He just had great scoring help over time so he was SMART ENOUGH to utilize his weapons. But Bird was EASILY capable of putting up the numbers that AD in Utah scoring wise! He was splitting the pie with a great supporting cast! And still getting 30 points a night on the Celtics in a given season with THAT HELP!

So basically, u would RATHER have AD willing your team to victory down the stretch than Bird in terms of scoring RIGHT! I mean since u think he's a better scorer AM I CORRECT IN MY ASSUMPTION? Sorry but give me Larry Legend over AD! Scoring wise, I prefer Bird's skillset and clutch gene over AD!

I don't think Bird could have matched Dantley's efficiency. The volume? Yes. He almost did that anyway, with some seasons over 28 PPG. I don't think he could match the super high efficiency. Very, very few could, and that's kind of my point.

Again, the PPG isn't what makes Dantley so inherently special, it's the combination of volume and efficiency. Dantley's best seasons are some of the very best all time statistically - right there with Durant's last two seasons and Barkley in 1988. It's not a criticism of Bird to suggest he wasn't as good of a scorer as AD. Again, I'd take Bird hands down as a player. I think he was better than Dantley in all facets of the game (in some ways by quite a bit) except scoring.

[dunksby]

When you made comparison with KD in the other thread and claimed AD was equal or better (3ball and Moonbeam) I protested and I was right. I give you this one though, AD is a better/more efficient scorer of the two. Melo is an OK shooter behind the arc which gives him an advantage and pulls off more rebounds, Melo is bigger too.
All in all, I believe would Melo be a better fit and much better performer on those Pistons teams while AD wouldn't be able to change this Knicks team's fortunes either.

[Moonbeam]

When you made comparison with KD in the other thread and claimed AD was equal or better (3ball and Moonbeam) I protested and I was right. I give you this one though, AD is a better/more efficient scorer of the two. Melo is an OK shooter behind the arc which gives him an advantage and pulls off more rebounds, Melo is bigger too.
All in all, I believe would Melo be a better fit and much better performer on those Pistons teams while AD wouldn't be able to change this Knicks team's fortunes either.

Wait, what? I said Dantley was as good of a scorer as Durant, but not as good of a player. I've already got Durant ahead of Dantley on my all-time list.

[dunksby]

Wait, what? I said Dantley was as good of a scorer as Durant, but not as good of a player. I've already got Durant ahead of Dantley on my all-time list.
Sorry then my bad, although Durant is a better scorer by a fair margin as well. But I don't wanna derail the thread.

[bizil]

I don't think Bird could have matched Dantley's efficiency. The volume? Yes. He almost did that anyway, with some seasons over 28 PPG. I don't think he could match the super high efficiency. Very, very few could, and that's kind of my point.

Again, the PPG isn't what makes Dantley so inherently special, it's the combination of volume and efficiency. Dantley's best seasons are some of the very best all time statistically - right there with Durant's last two seasons and Barkley in 1988. It's not a criticism of Bird to suggest he wasn't as good of a scorer as AD. Again, I'd take Bird hands down as a player. I think he was better than Dantley in all facets of the game (in some ways by quite a bit) except scoring.

In the history of the NBA, these are the only perimeter players I would choose over Bird if I had to in terms of scoring:

MJ
Kobe
Durant

Only those three! Everybody else I can't say for sure. I just dig Bird's scoring skillset. size advantage, and clutch factor. If there was a gap in scoring between AD and Bird (which I don't think) it's not's big at all. I feel Bird's advantages SUPERCEDE FG% and PPG in AD's case. They are close enough in general to scoring dominance than some nuances could swing it.

[Moonbeam]

In the history of the NBA, these are the only perimeter players I would choose over Bird if I had to in terms of scoring:

MJ
Kobe
Durant

Only those three! Everybody else I can't say for sure. I just dig Bird's scoring skillset. size advantage, and clutch factor. If there was a gap in scoring between AD and Bird (which I don't think) it's not's big at all. I feel Bird's advantages SUPERCEDE FG% and PPG in AD's case. They are close enough in general to scoring dominance than some nuances could swing it.

I think it's just a semantic point. I'm viewing scoring here simply as the ability to score points. That's all. On that front, the stats favor Dantley, and the gap isn't that small. Bird's sense of offense is much better, though. He was deadly in so many ways. The only perimeter player I take over him for offense for sure is MJ. Maybe LeBron and Magic, but it's close.