Who's Performance as a 2nd Option was Worse?

[3ball]

.

A) Kobe Bryant, 2000 Finals - 18 PPG, 36% FG

B) Lebron James, 2011 Finals - 17 PPG, 47% FG

C) Scottie Pippen, 1998 Finals - 15 PPG 42% FG

D) Dwayne Wade, 2014 Finals - 15 PPG, 42% FG


Which one was the worst?

[livinglegend]

1-9 without Pippen! 55 wins without Jordan.



have a good time! see you next time! :banana: :banana: :banana:

[SugarHill]

Cool agenda

[navy]

.

A) Kobe Bryant, 2000 Finals - 18 PPG, 36% FG

B) Lebron James, 2011 Finals - 17 PPG, 43% FG

C) Scottie Pippen, 1998 Finals - 15 PPG 42% FG

D) Dwayne Wade, 2014 Finals - 15 PPG, 42% FG


Which one was the worst?


Worse for standards, Lebron.

Worse player Kobe(injured) maybe Wade.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

In order of worst to best:

A
D
B
C

[Beastmode88]

@OP link 4th quarter stats for each please. I want to determine who had the most impact late game.

[HOoopCityJones]

.

A) Kobe Bryant, 2000 Finals - 18 PPG, 36% FG

B) Lebron James, 2011 Finals - 17 PPG, 47% FG

C) Scottie Pippen, 1998 Finals - 15 PPG 42% FG

D) Dwayne Wade, 2014 Finals - 15 PPG, 42% FG


Which one was the worst?


:biggums:

[Droid101]

Jordan playing baseball for two years.

[Lebronxrings]

A, d, c,b overall from worst to best

[Droid101]

@OP link 4th quarter stats for each please. I want to determine who had the most impact late game.
Ruined.

[Mass Debator]

Lebron. This was a healthy Lebron near the peak of his prime. He went down like 10 ppg from his regular season play.

[SouBeachTalents]

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1998-06-11/sports/9806110398_1_scottie-pippen-bulls-karl-malone
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/635114/What-about-Pippen-for-NBA-Finals-MVP.html?pg=all

None of the other 3 were having articles like this being written about them during the Finals

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Kobe in 04 was even worse. And i'm pretty sure his ppg was 14.6 in 00 not 18.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Best to Worst:

1) Pippen 1998 - Elite Defense
2) Kobe 2000 - Won a game on road w/o Shaq
3) Wade 2014 - Injured
4) Kobe 2004 - Selfish, Won Game 2
5) LeBron 2011 - Pseudo Peak, Passive, GHOST status as favorites

[Droid101]

Best to Worst:

1) Pippen 1998 - Elite Defense
2) Kobe 2000 - Won a game on road w/o Shaq
3) Wade 2014 - Injured
4) Kobe 2004 - Selfish, Won Game 2
5) LeBron 2011 - Pseudo Peak, Passive, GHOST status as favorites
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-STQBQ40Geec/UVmyKBSVJzI/AAAAAAAALK4/FcCZkz7q5LU/s1600/clap.gif

Though, Kobe 2004 shouldn't be in this list, He was 1a that year. Not a second option.

[SouBeachTalents]

2nd options that were much worse than those listed in OP

Jamaal Wilkes 1975- 12 & 10 on 32%
Vernon Maxwell 1994- 13, 3, 3 on 37%
Tony Parker 2003- 14, 3, 4 on 39%

[SamuraiSWISH]

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-STQBQ40Geec/UVmyKBSVJzI/AAAAAAAALK4/FcCZkz7q5LU/s1600/clap.gif

Though, Kobe 2004 shouldn't be in this list, He was 1a that year. Not a second option.
Thanks, bro. But that is your opinion, but arguable either way. It's not as definitive as post 2005 Lakers, which Kobe was CLEARLY the best player, and his franchise.

[GimmeThat]

Better question might be how many players in the league are qualified as the 4th option PER searson

And how interchangeble are they really.

[Droid101]

Thanks, bro. But that is your opinion, but arguable either way. It's not as definitive as post 2005 Lakers, which Kobe was CLEARLY the best player, and his franchise.
Hm... I suppose you could argue either way. But then, that means ultimately NEITHER of them were literal "second options" so we can agree to disagree.

[SugarHill]

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-STQBQ40Geec/UVmyKBSVJzI/AAAAAAAALK4/FcCZkz7q5LU/s1600/clap.gif

Though, Kobe 2004 shouldn't be in this list, He was 1a that year. Not a second option.
1a?

Shaq was clearly better

[Smoke117]

lol...Scottie Pippen in 98 was better than all those players combined before he crippled his back. Keep on keeping on, you stupid ****, 3ball.

[HOoopCityJones]

1a?

Shaq was clearly better

Multiple announcers were saying Kobe was the best player on the Team as early as 03 though, Including Stu Lance , who was the biggest Shaq stan.

[SugarHill]

Multiple announcers were saying Kobe was the best player on the Team as early as 03 though, Including Stu Lance , who was the biggest Shaq stan.
Right but 2004 was not a great year for Kobe, by any means.

[HOoopCityJones]

Right but 2004 was not a great year for Kobe, by any means.

A lot happened that year, yes, but there was already rumblings of who was on the upswing. Jerry didn't want Shaq to take a paycut for shits is all I'm saying.

Shaq and Kobe could've done some great things if they BOTH put the ego aside.

But at the same time Shaq isn't a Dwade or even a Tim Duncan type of guy.

He would've never willingly give the Team over to Kobe to lead. Despite him exiting his prime.

[kamil]

.

A) Kobe Bryant, 2000 Finals - 18 PPG, 36% FG

B) Lebron James, 2011 Finals - 17 PPG, 47% FG

C) Scottie Pippen, 1998 Finals - 15 PPG 42% FG

D) Dwayne Wade, 2014 Finals - 15 PPG, 42% FG


Which one was the worst?


Pippen had a really bad back that year and he missed most of game 6 (if not nearly entirely). Wade was playing with crippled knees as well. I'd give the two a pass. Kobe in 2000 was pretty young, but that FG% is unforgiveable.

LeBron*? That is easily the worst finals performance from someone who some people (for some fvcked up reason) think is greater than MJ.

[Kvnzhangyay]

Obviously Lebrons was the worst

[Prometheus]

In a vacuum, Kobe's was the worst. But he was young and the Lakers did just fine anyway, so meh.

Past that, Wade played the worst. Injury or not, he looked just fine against Indiana. Then he was worthless in the Finals... on both sides of the ball. He missed assignments, jogged back, and played lazy defense all around. Then on offense, he was missing good midrange looks and easy layups, getting stuffed at the rim by Splitter, and having the ball taken right out of his hands by Danny Green. It was seriously pathetic.

If you put everything in context though, LeBron wins (loses) this one in a landslide. I'm not even going to go into detail... we all know about it. Who knows why it actually happened... Was he confused about his role? Did the Mavericks really disrupt his game in ways we don't understand? Was he intimidated by someone? Was he simply shook on the big stage? No one will ever really know. I don't even think LeBron knows, and I think that's kind of the problem in the first place.

Pippen? GTFO. He hurt his back... and played 5x better defense than the other choices.

[Prometheus]

Kobe 2004 should be right there with LeBron 2011 though, in my opinion. He wasn't a true second option... but neither was LeBron until the series was already unfolding. The Lakers could have put up a fight if he had simply swallowed his pride and taken what the defense was giving them. Those mother****ers were leaving 6'9" Ben Wallace on Shaq with no help. Instead of doubling down low, they kept their defensive focus on Kobe because they knew he would force the issue anyway, and they were right. I was honestly a HUGE Kobe Bryant fan before that series. It was kind of traumatic... as traumatic as a sporting event can be I guess... to see that his mentality was so flawed.

[SamuraiSWISH]

to see that his mentality was so flawed.
Agreed. And unfortunately that stubborn, over confident mentality persists until this day to be honest. His gift, and curse. They're opposite ends of the spectrum BTW. Kobe's cocky, and forces the issue. LeBron's insecure, and gets way too passive.

[HOoopCityJones]

Wouldn't have even went the distance in 04 if Kobe doesn't hit that game winner. It wasn't as bad as 2011 Lebron imo.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Wouldn't of even went the distance in 04 if Kobe doesn't hit that game winner. It wasn't as bad as 2011 Lebron imo.
Yea, his game 2 performance is what puts it over LeBron's. And the Lakers had Karl Malone's injury to deal with. Miami was healthy, and clicking. They choked away a huge late game 2 lead. Won game 3 convincingly, which would've had them up 3-0. And Wade was the best player for Miami from the second half of game 1 forward. I prefer even if selfish, and cocky ... with stupid shot selection, Kobe's aggressiveness to LeBron's complete lack of trying.

[Prometheus]

Agreed. And unfortunately that stubborn, over confident mentality persists until this day to be honest. His gift, and curse. They're opposite ends of the spectrum BTW. Kobe's cocky, and forces the issue. LeBron's insecure, and gets way too passive.

Samurai keepin it 100 as always. I've said it before and I'll say it again: LeBron is a coward, but Kobe is a fool.


Wouldn't of even went the distance in 04 if Kobe doesn't hit that game winner. It wasn't as bad as 2011 Lebron imo.

You know, I say it should be "right there" with it, but I agree with you. LeBron was still worse. A few key differences:

Kobe was still playing the same role he always played. The defense was dictating that he should have radically changed his approach for a week or two. LeBron meanwhile radically changed his own approach for seemingly no reason.

As you said, Kobe saved game two for them. It's crazy to think that that Lakers team was THAT CLOSE to being swept by those Pistons. LeBron however generated zero key contributions in crunch time.

Most importantly, the Lakers still would have lost. If LeBron had played to his potential, there's a very strong chance that Miami would have won that series.

Finally, while both are shameful, in the end I think it is better to be a fool than a coward.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Samurai keepin it 100 as always. I've said it before and I'll say it again: LeBron is a coward, but Kobe is a fool.
Not speaking on overall quality as players, strictly mentality speaking ... I mean besides MJ being better than both, but that's what both Jordan and Wade have over both of them. Also not coincidental as to why that makes both of them better playoff, and big game players.

Look how Kobe struggled with Prince on him, playing into their hands, forcing contested hero jumpers with a hand on his face.

What did sophomore Wade do the very next season with the SAME guy guarding him, and in essence the same team defense?

He cut up Detroit's defense off the dribble like a surgeon, destroying them from the inside out. He looked like Dexter out there the way he knifed through the lane to attack a team with kind of a lack of size at the rim.

Wade compromised that entire team by getting into the teeth of the defense. Where as Kobe took the fragile way out and launched jumpers near exclusively.

[HOoopCityJones]

I still think Karl was the key to that series. That shit still feels like the one that got away. Count that Fisher was overall better for us than Payton that year and you just have a very odd season.

[Prometheus]

Not speaking on overall quality as players, strictly mentality speaking ... I mean besides MJ being better than both, but that's what both Jordan and Wade have over both of them. Also not coincidental as to why that makes both of them better playoff, and big game players.

Look how Kobe struggled with Prince on him, playing into their hands, forcing contested hero jumpers with a hand on his face.

What did sophomore Wade do the very next season with the SAME guy guarding him, and in essence the same team defense?

He cut up Detroit's defense off the dribble like a surgeon, destroying them from the inside out. He looked like Dexter out there the way he knifed through the lane to attack a team with kind of a lack of size at the rim.

Wade compromised that entire team by getting into the teeth of the defense. Where as Kobe took the fragile way out and launched jumpers near exclusively.

I agree with this Kobe/Wade juxtaposition thoroughly, but you really can't call Wade a superior playoff performer at this point. He had a brilliant run, there's no denying that. But when you look back over their entire careers thus far, LeBron has been better than Wade in the playoffs by FAR. So has Kobe. If it's because of his knees, it's because of his knees. But it is what it is.

I do think Wade has an excellent mentality though. Always have. He honestly just seems to be a more mature, self-realized man than either Kobe or LeBron.

[HOoopCityJones]

I agree with this Kobe/Wade juxtaposition thoroughly, but you really can't call Wade a superior playoff performer at this point. He had a brilliant run, there's no denying that. But when you look back over their entire careers thus far, LeBron has been better than Wade in the playoffs by FAR. So has Kobe. If it's because of his knees, it's because of his knees. But it is what it is.

I do think Wade has an excellent mentality though. Always have. He honestly just seems to be a more mature, self-realized man than either Kobe or LeBron.

I used to feel the same about Melo. Very comfortable with who he is as a player , but for whatever reason he can't seem to get over that hump.

[Prometheus]

I still think Karl was the key to that series. That shit still feels like the one that got away. Count that Fisher was overall better for us than Payton that year and you just have a very odd season.

Don't let it bug you - that shit is not the one that got away. Kobe could have helped make it more competitive, but Detroit was gonna whoop that ass anyway.

[Prometheus]

I used to feel the same about Melo. Very comfortable with who he is as a player , but for whatever reason he can't seem to get over that hump.

The problem with Carmelo isn't his mentality, it's just that he's not very bright. You can reflect and grow if you realize you have a character flaw, but you can't fix stupid.

[HOoopCityJones]

Don't let it bug you - that shit is not the one that got away. Kobe could have helped make it more competitive, but Detroit was gonna whoop that ass anyway.

Yea, everything happens for a reason. That shit doesn't flame out in 04, and we probably wouldn't of gotten the great run of Kobe and Gasol a few years later.

Underrated duo right now, they definitely should be mentioned more in the duo discussions.

[SamuraiSWISH]

2008 Finals should've been Kobe's crowning moment to define his legacy.

He had an incredible season. Finally seemed mature, and let the game come to him. A responsible leader where his individual greatness synced with his leadership. Carried the same dead beat roster from 2006, and 2007 to a top three seed in the West before they stole Gasol from Memphis.

That collapse in game 4 v.s. Boston, which eventually led to the entire team giving up in the Finals is the real one that got away.

If they hold onto that huge lead to win that game the entire series is different confidence wise for the Lakers. Kobe wasn't playing good or great, but decent enough to if just with a bit of help win the series.

The basketball gods gave him a chance to redeem himself in 2010 game 7. And that ended awkwardly too, even in victory.

[SouBeachTalents]

I still think Karl was the key to that series. That shit still feels like the one that got away. Count that Fisher was overall better for us than Payton that year and you just have a very odd season.

I would think '08 would feel a lot more like that than '04 would. The Lakers were lucky not to get swept in '04, in '08 they had a stranglehold on Game 4 to tie the series at 2-2 before their monumental collapse

[HOoopCityJones]

The problem with Carmelo isn't his mentality, it's just that he's not very bright. You can reflect and grow if you realize you have a character flaw, but you can't fix stupid.

:oldlol: True that.

Can you imagine if Carmelo just waited for his contract to expire and signed with the Knicks when they had the same Team they traded for him?

[HOoopCityJones]

2008 Finals should've been Kobe's crowning moment to define his legacy.

He had an incredible season. Finally seemed mature, and let the game come to him. A responsible leader where his individual greatness synced with his leadership. Carried the same dead beat roster from 2006, and 2007 to a top three seed in the West before they stole Gasol from Memphis.

That collapse in game 4 v.s. Boston, which eventually led to the entire team giving up in the Finals is the real one that got away.

If they hold onto that huge lead to win that game the entire series is different confidence wise for the Lakers. Kobe wasn't playing good or great, but decent enough to if just with a bit of help win the series.

The basketball gods gave him a chance to redeem himself in 2010 game 7. And that ended awkwardly too, even in victory.



I would think '08 would feel a lot more like that than '04 would. The Lakers were lucky not to get swept in '04, in '08 they had a stranglehold on Game 4 to tie the series at 2-2 before their monumental collapse


Don't even get me started ya'll. :facepalm


I need a blunt, smh.

[SamuraiSWISH]

MJ and LeBron have had the perfect season. MVP, Championship, Finals MVP, w/ great Finals ... hell Gold Medal. It barely alluded Kobe. 2008 was that career perfect season.

[Prometheus]

Don't even get me started ya'll. :facepalm


I need a blunt, smh.

:oldlol:

You'll just get high and think about it more. You'll look up video of game four and imagine how all these little moments could have gone differently. Our imaginations run wild when we're stoned, you're better off getting drunk.

[SouBeachTalents]

MJ and LeBron have had the perfect season. MVP, Championship, Finals MVP, w/ great Finals ... hell Gold Medal. It barely alluded Kobe. 2008 was that career perfect season.

True, I never even thought of that. Shaq would have done the same had he played in 2000, same with Jordan doing it again in '96

[SamuraiSWISH]

True, I never even thought of that. Shaq would have done the same had he played in 2000, same with Jordan doing it again in '96
That 1996 team w/ Jordan could've been BONKERS. Same thing if the Olympics let American Pros into the competition in '88. Prime MJ / Magic / Bird. Jordan could've had 2x more Gold Medals on his resume.

[HOoopCityJones]

:oldlol:

You'll just get high and think about it more. You'll look up video of game four and imagine how all these little moments could have gone differently. Our imaginations run wild when we're stoned, you're better off getting drunk.

Haha, I lowkey don't drink much. Just some hendog and coke every now and then, but otherwise a ni99a be burning shit down. :pimp:

[Dresta]

Bron's was by far the worst: there was something really inexplicable about just HOW bad he was. He looked like a scared child from the end of game 2 onwards.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Bron's was by far the worst: there was something really inexplicable about just HOW bad he was. He looked like a scared child from the end of game 2 onwards.
Yea, odd. I still remember Wade scolding him like a child for his passiveness in game 3 on national television. A big brother trying to instill mental toughness on a scared, albeit talented younger brother. God, Wade really did get hosed out of his 2nd Finals MVP. He was BALLING. That team should've won 3x rings, Wade should have 4x chips, and 2x Finals MVP trophies.

[BigTicket]

Taken out of context, Lebron's performance (18/7/7 on 48% FG) is not actually that bad. If he had actually been the 2nd option, that would be ok. The problem however is the context, he was supposed to be the best player in the finals, and he wasn't even close to that.

Other players have had equally bad performance though, like 2004 Kobe (23-4-3 on 38% FG)

[SouBeachTalents]

Yea, odd. I still remember Wade scolding him like a child for his passiveness in game 3 on national television. A big brother trying to instill mental toughness on a scared, albeit talented younger brother. God, Wade really did get hosed out of his 2nd Finals MVP. He was BALLING. That team should've won 3x rings, Wade should have 4x chips, and 2x Finals MVP trophies.

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/1-26-2015/0q7vXw.gif (http://www.makeagif.com/0q7vXw)

[ArbitraryWater]

In a vacuum, Kobe's was the worst. But he was young and the Lakers did just fine anyway, so meh.

Past that, Wade played the worst. Injury or not, he looked just fine against Indiana. Then he was worthless in the Finals... on both sides of the ball. He missed assignments, jogged back, and played lazy defense all around. Then on offense, he was missing good midrange looks and easy layups, getting stuffed at the rim by Splitter, and having the ball taken right out of his hands by Danny Green. It was seriously pathetic.

If you put everything in context though, LeBron wins (loses) this one in a landslide. I'm not even going to go into detail... we all know about it. Who knows why it actually happened... Was he confused about his role? Did the Mavericks really disrupt his game in ways we don't understand? Was he intimidated by someone? Was he simply shook on the big stage? No one will ever really know. I don't even think LeBron knows, and I think that's kind of the problem in the first place.

Pippen? GTFO. He hurt his back... and played 5x better defense than the other choices.


If there's one thing I'm really disappointed about in Wade, it's that..... He wasn't injured, and he didn't do shit. Neither defensively. There was no ability to takeover what so ever. This year he's had a bunch of good games, the ECF series before he had good games, but NOTHING when the Heat could have used it last year in the finals. Nothing.

I don't blame him for much in his career, as most is correlated with injuries, and not adapting a long range shot (his fault), but that 2014 finals was really, really disappointing.


Yea, his game 2 performance is what puts it over LeBron's. And the Lakers had Karl Malone's injury to deal with. Miami was healthy, and clicking. They choked away a huge late game 2 lead. Won game 3 convincingly, which would've had them up 3-0. And Wade was the best player for Miami from the second half of game 1 forward. I prefer even if selfish, and cocky ... with stupid shot selection, Kobe's aggressiveness to LeBron's complete lack of trying.

"convincingly" on a game winner and last second miss by the opponent? Game 3 went down to the wire just like game 2, game 4 and it to a less extent game 5, did.



Kobe did save game 2, but we shouldn't forget that LeBron was MOTM in the Game 1 Win.

[Wade's Rings]

Yea, odd. I still remember Wade scolding him like a child for his passiveness in game 3 on national television. A big brother trying to instill mental toughness on a scared, albeit talented younger brother. God, Wade really did get hosed out of his 2nd Finals MVP. He was BALLING. That team should've won 3x rings, Wade should have 4x chips, and 2x Finals MVP trophies.


I will never forgive Lebron for the 2011 Finals. With 2 Finals MVPs Wade's Career would be have to be Top 15 All-Time, People Couldn't say Lebron Carried that Heat team to 4 straight Finals, The Wade vs Kobe debate would be much more heated, and the Heat 3-peat.

[3ball]

If you're on this list, you are immediately eliminated from GOAT contention - you ain't anywhere NEAR as good as Jordan.

Jordan was never anywhere NEAR being a 2nd option...

Nor was he anywhere NEAR playing like such garbage in any important series, let alone the Finals.

[Smoke117]

Scottie Pippen led the 96 playoffs in drating and defensive win shares. Did Lebron or Kobe? Didn't think so. He was also dealing with about three injuries (ankle, knee and wrist) during the 96 playoffs. Oh you said 1998...oh nevermind then. Though I'm not sure how this makes sense? Pippen was averaging 20ppg till he hurt his back and playing super elite, smothering defense. ("one man wrecking crew")

[3ball]

Scottie Pippen led the 96 playoffs in drating and defensive win shares. Did Lebron or Kobe? Didn't think so. He was also dealing with about three injuries (ankle, knee and wrist) during the 96 playoffs.
who cares.

by virtue of being a 2nd option AND playing horrible in the Finals, Pippen is lumped in with Kobe, Lebron, and Wade.

all these guys came up FAR short of Jordan on the biggest, toughest, and most important basketball stage...

don't make me post Finals stats for all these guys... what a joke that would be.

[G0ATbe]

Well for one, Kobe wasn't a 2nd option in 2000. He was just very unselfish that series so he shouldn't be on this list. And why say "worse":confusedshrug: ? Aside from one huge chokejob listed on here, the others all had a positive impact for the most part, some a huge impact on the series.

To answer your question, LeBald easily. Although he was actually a 3rd option imo.

[Smoke117]

who cares.

by virtue of being a 2nd option AND playing horrible in the Finals, Pippen is lumped in with Kobe, Lebron, and Wade.

all these guys came up FAR short of Jordan on the biggest, toughest, and most important basketball stage...

don't make me post Finals stats for all these guys... what a joke that would be.

Uh...okay. Settle down?

Why don't you just start a journal? Then you can write anything you want about Jordan and the only opinion you'll have to read...is your own. Sounds perfect for you, bitch.

[Hey Yo]

If you're on this list, you are immediately eliminated from GOAT contention - you ain't anywhere NEAR as good as Jordan.

Jordan was never anywhere NEAR being a 2nd option...

Nor was he anywhere NEAR playing like such garbage in any important series, let alone the Finals.
Neither was LeBron until that Finals.

Not sure who's great idea it was to have Wade be first option while James took a back seat for the sake of Wade.

[insidious301]

Lets not forget Scottie Pippen was leading the FMVP campaign for a large portion of those Finals - and probably would have won it had he not injured himself.

Here are some GREAT articles explaining why Pippen was the lead-vote, plus Sloan and Jazz players talking about his impact:

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1998-06-11/sports/9806110398_1_scottie-pippen-bulls-karl-malone
http://www.nytimes.com/1998/06/13/sports/sports-of-the-times-it-s-as-much-pippen-s-fight-as-jordan-s.html
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/635114/What-about-Pippen-for-NBA-Finals-MVP.html?pg=all

[Smoke117]

Lets not forget Scottie Pippen was leading the FMVP campaign for a large portion of those Finals - and probably would have won it had he not injured himself.

Here are some GREAT articles explaining why Pippen was the lead-vote, plus Sloan and Jazz players talking about his impact:

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1998-06-11/sports/9806110398_1_scottie-pippen-bulls-karl-malone
http://www.nytimes.com/1998/06/13/sports/sports-of-the-times-it-s-as-much-pippen-s-fight-as-jordan-s.html
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/635114/What-about-Pippen-for-NBA-Finals-MVP.html?pg=all

but...but...he wasn't the first option!

[red1]

If you're on this list, you are immediately eliminated from GOAT contention - you ain't anywhere NEAR as good as Jordan.

Jordan was never anywhere NEAR being a 2nd option...

Nor was he anywhere NEAR playing like such garbage in any important series, let alone the Finals.
and it comes out! should've just made this your first post because this is clearly what you were trying to say all along

[3ball]

Here are some GREAT articles explaining why Pippen was the lead-vote, plus Sloan and Jazz players talking about his impact:

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1998-06-11/sports/9806110398_1_scottie-pippen-bulls-karl-malone
http://www.nytimes.com/1998/06/13/sports/sports-of-the-times-it-s-as-much-pippen-s-fight-as-jordan-s.html
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/635114/What-about-Pippen-for-NBA-Finals-MVP.html?pg=all


3 articles took a devil's advocate, tongue-in-cheek position, out of literally thousands of articles being written at the time.

i'm sure those reporters all chuckled softly to themselves when pippen finished the series scoring 10, 6, and 8 points in 3 of the last 4 games, to finish the series with 15 PPG on 41% shooting.

Of course, Rodman ALSO disappeared (3.1 PPG, 8.1 RPG), which forced Jordan to set a Finals record by scoring 38% of his teams points - this alone makes him the most valuable player in the Finals ever... he literally won the 1998 Finals all by himself, with the least help anyone's ever had.

of course, MJ also provided the greatest clutch moments ever seen in basketball in the 1998 Finals.
.

[SouBeachTalents]

3 articles took a devil's advocate, tongue-in-cheek position, out of literally thousands of articles being written at the time.

i'm sure those reporters all chuckled softly to themselves when pippen finished the series scoring 10, 6, and 8 points in 3 of the last 4 games, to finish the series with 15 PPG on 41% shooting.

Of course, Rodman ALSO disappeared (3.1 PPG, 8.1 RPG), which forced Jordan to set a Finals record by scoring 38% of his teams points - this alone makes him the most valuable player in the Finals ever... he literally won the 1998 Finals all by himself, with the least help anyone's ever had.

of course, MJ also provided the greatest clutch moments ever seen in basketball in the 1998 Finals.
.

I don't think you know what the word literal means

[97 bulls]

3 articles took a devil's advocate, tongue-in-cheek position, out of literally thousands of articles being written at the time.

i'm sure those reporters all chuckled softly to themselves when pippen finished the series scoring 10, 6, and 8 points in 3 of the last 4 games, to finish the series with 15 PPG on 41% shooting.

Of course, Rodman ALSO disappeared (3.1 PPG, 8.1 RPG), which forced Jordan to set a Finals record by scoring 38% of his teams points - this alone makes him the most valuable player in the Finals ever... he literally won the 1998 Finals all by himself, with the least help anyone's ever had.

of course, MJ also provided the greatest clutch moments ever seen in basketball in the 1998 Finals.
.
Where are these articles? The only person saying this is you. Through the first four games Pippen was the front runner for MVP.

[3ball]

Where are these articles? The only person saying this is you. Through the first four games Pippen was the front runner for MVP.
those were the only articles in the entire nation taking that devil's advocate position - all the other articles just reported the game normally - the score, etc... the fact that Jordan would win another MVP was assumed by everyone, even those reporters tbh.

6 points, 10 points, and 8 points in 3 of the last 4 games to finish up the series at 15 PPG on 41%... you decide.

[BasedTom]

Yea, odd. I still remember Wade scolding him like a child for his passiveness in game 3 on national television. A big brother trying to instill mental toughness on a scared, albeit talented younger brother. God, Wade really did get hosed out of his 2nd Finals MVP. He was BALLING. That team should've won 3x rings, Wade should have 4x chips, and 2x Finals MVP trophies.
http://i.imgur.com/3NMRru9.png

http://i.imgur.com/DL3bwYf.jpg

http://www1.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/Dwyane+Wade+Chicago+Bulls+v+Miami+Heat+Game+uOH60x 0raocl.jpg

https://hoopsallday.files.wordpress.com/2013/05/wadeprom.jpg

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6206/6069517299_20c2ee96a4_z.jpg

http://lh4.ggpht.com/-m5yk6USgvtw/TeXU1jwg2mI/AAAAAAAEHjM/f1LVGkxzkWc/s800/lebron_james_nba_110531_mia-vs-dal-06-game-1.jpg

http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2012/1001/nba_g_james_gb2_576.jpg

http://blacksportsonline.com/home/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/Dwyane-Wade-Drama.jpg

[97 bulls]

those were the only articles in the entire nation taking that devil's advocate position - all the other articles just reported the game normally - the score, etc... the fact that Jordan would win another MVP was assumed by everyone, even those reporters tbh.

6 points, 10 points, and 8 points in 3 of the last 4 games to finish up the series at 15 PPG on 41%... you decide.
Dude. Weve had this conversation before. Scottie Pippens defensive effort in game three was the greatest defensive effort by a perimeter player EVER!!!!!!!! The Jazz had 26 TOs and Pippen accounted for 20. Whether it be the 7 charges he drew on the Jazz, the block, the two steals, or the way he had John Stockton playing.

So he scored 10 pts. The Bulls won by 42.

[houston]

Best to Worst:

1) Pippen 1998 - Elite Defense
2) Kobe 2000 - Won a game on road w/o Shaq
3) Wade 2014 - Injured
4) Kobe 2004 - Selfish, Won Game 2
5) LeBron 2011 - Pseudo Peak, Passive, GHOST status as favorites


ok this right

[pauk]

E) Michael Jordan in 1995-96 Finals, 41% FG, 22 ppg per 36, shot 33% in 4th quarter where as in 3 of the closest games he shot 15%, in deciding game 6 Jordan went 5 of 19 (26% FG) and won, due to Rodman, who should have won FMVP.

Seattle coach George Karl said, “As you evaluate the series, Dennis Rodman won two basketball games. Game 2 and tonight, he was the reason they were successful.”

In Game 6, in which Jordan shot 5-for-19 (26.3%) and Chicago 39.7% as a team, Rodman had 19 rebounds, 11 offensive, tying the single-game record for the second time, nine points, five assists and three steals.

In Game 2, in which Michael Jordan shot 9-for-22 (40.9%) and Chicago 39.0% as a team, Rodman scored 10 points and grabbed 20 rebounds, an NBA Finals record-tying 11 on the offensive glass, to lead the Bulls to a 92-88 win. “Rodman was definitely the difference,” Hershey Hawkins said. “Rodman killed us,” said Vincent Askew. “There is no question he was the MVP of the game,” Karl said. “His offensive rebounds hurt us. A lot of possessions, the momentum of the game, the style of the game, and even the scoreboard might have changed.”

No one on the Bulls could hit a shot, and Rodman's offensive rebounding was CRUCIAL, giving them second possessions and extra chances. They were talking about it on sports talk radio—I listened to what was being said AT THE TIME—that Rodman should have been MVP, but Jordan got it because he was Jordan, when that was by far his worst finals, and he had an un-Jordan-like deciding game. And there was no way in hell Dennis Rodman was going to be voted MVP.

[3ball]

In Game 2, in which Michael Jordan shot 9-for-22 (40.9%) and Chicago 39.0% as a team, Rodman scored 10 points and grabbed 20 rebounds, an NBA Finals record-tying 11 on the offensive glass, to lead the Bulls to a 92-88 win. “Rodman was definitely the difference,” Hershey Hawkins said. “Rodman killed us,” said Vincent Askew. “There is no question he was the MVP of the game,” Karl said. “His offensive rebounds hurt us. A lot of possessions, the momentum of the game, the style of the game, and even the scoreboard might have changed.”


Jordan averaged 32 ppg on 48% through 3 games to get the Bulls a 3-0 lead in 1996.. in one of those games, the Sonics got beat by 40.

That's how big the gap was between the two teams...

It would have made no difference if the Sonics put Payton on Jordan from Game 1... Payton would have come out tentative the first couple games, just like the entire Sonics team did in that series, and Jordan would have put up the same numbers.

The only reason Payton was able to play that hard in Games 4-6 and give Jordan everything he had was because the Sonics were in nothing-to-lose mode... they were in desperation mode, while the Bulls were in "why aren't we on vacation yet?" mode.

But even if Payton is able to go at Jordan with everything he has from the outset, Jordan would have had plenty of time to adjust and the Bulls still would have won... Infact, it would have forced Jordan to produce a GOAT-level game like he did in the 1992 ECF vs. the Knicks - they contained him for 3 games to get a 2-1 series lead, and then Jordan hit 54 points on all jumpers to change the entire series... and it was back to the drawing board for Pat Riley.

So it would have been cool to see Payton guard MJ from Game 1, because it would have made Jordan elevate his game and produce a GOAT-level game, as he had done so many times before.

[SouBeachTalents]

Jordan averaged 32 ppg on 48% through 3 games to get the Bulls a 3-0 lead in 1996.. in one of those games, the Sonics got beat by 40.

That's how big the gap was between the two teams...

Nice job altering facts

1. Jordan in Games 1-3: 31 ppg on 46%

2. The Sonics lost the first 3 games by 17, 4, and 22

[3ball]

Nice job altering facts.

1. Jordan in Games 1-3: 31 ppg on 46%

2. The Sonics lost the first 3 games by 17, 4, and 22
i mixed up the Finals - they beat Utah by 40... but it's splitting hairs... the Bulls were the far better team obviously.

the bulls win no matter what the sonics do...

however, i wish payton would have guarded jordan from Game 1 though.. it would have been a bigger notch jordan's belt than it was, and his series stats would have been much better... i doubt payton would have come out giving Jordan everything he had from Game 1 - he likely would have started out tentative, like the entire Sonics team did, and Jordan's numbers would have been the same.

But if Payton DID come out giving Jordan everything he had, it would have been cool to see jordan adjust to payton over the course of an entire series.... it would have been similar to the 1992 ECF against the Knicks, who held Jordan down until game 4, when he scored 54 points on all jumpshots to change the series - they brought the best out of Jordan because as a team, they could hang with the Bulls.

unfortunately, the way it worked out, the bulls had such a big lead, that by the time the two faced off, payton had an advantage by being in hyper-desperation mode, and he got to face the relaxed, "why aren't I on vacation yet" Jordan, which hurt Jordan's series numbers... If Payton had guarded Jordan from Game 1 (and if the Sonics were competitive like the 1992 Knicks were), then and only then would we see the best that Jordan can give Payton.
.

[masonanddixon]

Lebron in 2010-2011 though he was more like a 7th-8th option, to be fair.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Jordan's worst Finals performance is still better than Kobe, and LeBron's worst appearances.

1) 1996 MJ
2) 2000 Kobe
3) 2007 LeBron
4) 2004 Kobe
5) 2011 LeBron

[3ball]

Jordan's worst Finals performance is still better than Kobe, and LeBron's worst appearances.

1) 1996 MJ
2) 2000 Kobe
3) 2007 LeBron
4) 2004 Kobe
5) 2011 LeBron


Excellent... they both have two performances worse than the only NON-goat-level Finals performance Jordan ever had... 5/6 i suppose... i guess he's not 6/6 after all... :lol

and man, i wish payton would have guarded jordan from Game 1 in 1996 though.. it would have been a bigger notch on jordan's belt than it was, and his series stats would have been much better.

unfortunately, the way it worked out, the bulls had such a big lead, that the hyper-desperate payton got to face the relaxed, "why aren't I on vacation yet" Jordan, which hurt Jordan's series numbers.
.

[SouBeachTalents]

Jordan's worst Finals performance is still better than Kobe, and LeBron's worst appearances.

1) 1996 MJ
2) 2000 Kobe
3) 2007 LeBron
4) 2004 Kobe
5) 2011 LeBron

You could make a serious argument Jordan's '96 Finals are on par with or even better than Kobe's in '01, '08 and 2010 as well

[The Genius]

Dude. Weve had this conversation before. Scottie Pippens defensive effort in game three was the greatest defensive effort by a perimeter player EVER!!!!!!!! The Jazz had 26 TOs and Pippen accounted for 20. Whether it be the 7 charges he drew on the Jazz, the block, the two steals, or the way he had John Stockton playing.

So he scored 10 pts. The Bulls won by 42.

Yep. His defense was huge against the Jazz. Ball magazines were making jokes about how many charges he drew on Malone. Scottie gets disrespected far too much for low scoring. It wasn't his role on the team. If you have one of the best scorers ever on your team, why would you be trying to score highly also?

Far out man. These ESPN kiddies drive me crazy.

[pauk]

Ssshhhh i was trying to troll 3ball :mad:

[ImKobe]

You could make a serious argument Jordan's '96 Finals are on par with or even better than Kobe's in '01, '08 and 2010 as well

:wtf:

Kobe in 01 had one bad game and was very good in the 4 straight wins

2010 had two bad shooting nights but was solid in 5 games

MJ in 96 averaged 27/5/4 on 54%TS 18.5 GmSc

on the road: 28/3/3 on 43/30/90 shooting

Kobe in 2010 avgd 29/8/4 on 53%TS 18.7 GmSc

on the road: 33/6/3 on 42/39/92 shooting

Kobe in 01 in the 4 straight wins avgd 27/9/6 on 44% shooting

08 is close when you leave out the huge blowout in Game 6 that wouldn't have mattered either way because they lost by 39.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Ranking the Finals of MJ / LeBron / Kobe:

The Best:

1) MJ '93 Finals
2) MJ '92 Finals
3) MJ '91 Finals
4) MJ '97 Finals
5) LeBron 2012 Finals

Good:

6) LeBron 2013 Finals
7) Kobe 2009 Finals
8) MJ '98 Finals
9) Kobe 2002 Finals

Average:

10) Kobe 2010 Finals
11) Kobe 2001 Finals
12) MJ '96 Finals
13) LeBron 2014 Finals
14) Kobe 2008 Finals
15) Kobe 2000 Finals

The Worst:

16) LeBron 2007 Finals
17) Kobe 2004 Finals
18) LeBron 2011 Finals

MJ underperformed in 1996, but it's often exaggerated. He faced one of the best all-time perimeter defenders in Gary Payton, and faced the best team defense not named the Bulls that season.

He also dropped 36 in what was tantamount to the series clinching game on the road in hostile Seattle for game 3. MJ was by far the best player that game or up until that point in the series. Even though he was missing normal shots he made all season.

I think his extra muscle mass he gained before the season wore down his knees, and stamina. Thus why he dropped weight for the 1997 season and looked a bit quicker, as well as more explosive.

[SouBeachTalents]

Ranking the Finals of MJ / LeBron / Kobe:

The Best:

1) MJ '93 Finals
2) MJ '92 Finals
3) MJ '91 Finals
4) LeBron 2012 Finals
5) MJ '97 Finals

6) LeBron 2013 Finals
7) Kobe 2009 Finals
8) MJ '98 Finals
9) Kobe 2010 Finals
10) Kobe 2002 Finals

11) Kobe 2001 Finals
12) MJ '96 Finals
13) LeBron 2014 Finals
14) Kobe 2008 Finals
15) Kobe 2000 Finals

The Worst:

16) LeBron 2007 Finals
17) Kobe 2004 Finals
18) LeBron 2011 Finals

Only ones I would switch

Kobe's '09 over LeBron's '13
Kobe's '02 over Kobe's '10

LeBron's 2014 is very hard to grade. I felt he played well enough, but so many of his numbers were put up in inconsequential parts of the game where his team was down 15-20 points

[3ball]

Again, I wish payton would have guarded jordan from Game 1 in 1996... it would have been a bigger notch jordan's belt than it ended up being, and it would have been cool to see Jordan adjust to Payton over the course of an entire series.. Payton might have coaxed a GOAT-level game out of him.

It's simply impossible for a 6'4" player to guard Jordan an entire series (or any defender), so it would've been fun to see the moment when Jordan started crushing him... Kind of like a Mayweather fight the moment he figures out how to setup/land that straight right whenever he wants... game over.

It would have been similar to the 1992 ECF against the Knicks, who held Jordan down until game 4, at which point he scored 54 points on all jumpshots (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OoVMIZWS_-A) to change the series - they brought the best out of Jordan because as a team they were competitive and an actual threat to the Bulls.

Unfortunately, Seattle was never a threat... The way it worked out, the bulls had such a big lead by the time the MJ and Payton faced off, that Payton had an advantage by being in hyper-desperation, nothing-to-lose mode, and he got to face the relaxed, "why aren't I on vacation yet" Jordan, which hurt Jordan's series numbers... If Payton had guarded Jordan from Game 1 (and if the Sonics were competitive like the 1992 Knicks were), ONLY THEN would we see the best that Jordan can give Payton.
.

[SamuraiSWISH]

It would have been similar to the 1992 ECF against the Knicks, who held Jordan down until game 4, at which point he scored 54 points on all jumpshots (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OoVMIZWS_-A) to change the series - they brought the best out of Jordan because as a team they were competitive and an actual threat to the Bulls.

1993

[Roundball_Rock]

.

A) Kobe Bryant, 2000 Finals - 18 PPG, 36% FG

B) Lebron James, 2011 Finals - 17 PPG, 47% FG

C) Scottie Pippen, 1998 Finals - 15 PPG 42% FG

D) Dwayne Wade, 2014 Finals - 15 PPG, 42% FG


Which one was the worst?


Notice how MJ stans never mention defense when bringing up 98'? Pippen led Chicago to 3 of their wins (CHI took a 3-1 lead) and was the front-runner, at the time, for FMVP before he blew out his back late in the series!

THE N.B.A. FINALS: At Every Turn, Jazz Finds Pippen; The Bulls' Consummate Defender Picks Apart the Pick-and-Roll

By MIKE WISE

Published: June 9, 1998


CHICAGO, June 8— Scottie Pippen was buzzing John Stockton like an annoying gnat in the backcourt, filling the passing lanes the way Coach Jerry Sloan wishes his players would and taking a charge from Karl Malone under the basket. (All this during one Utah possession. Where does this show up on the stat sheet?) On the next Utah Jazz possession, Pippen caused more havoc.

''He is probably the only guy in basketball who draws offensive fouls anymore,'' Sloan said today. ''He had a ton of them last night, I think eight or nine. That was about as good a display of being able to step up and take a charge as you'll see.''

Antoine Carr, the veteran Jazz forward, added, ''Scottie is everywhere.''

Pippen, a roving linebacker in high-tops, is using the finals to reaffirm his position as the game's most complete and chaos-inspiring defensive player. On Sunday night, he was largely responsible for the lowest scoring total in National Basketball Association history since the advent of the shot clock, when the Chicago Bulls pulverized the Jazz, 96-54, to take a two-games-to-one lead in the four-of-seven-game series.

Pippen roamed the floor, spreading his 6-foot-7-inch angular body from player to player on the Jazz roster. Twenty-six Utah turnovers and an unprecedented finals rout later, everyone wanted to know how one player could cause such disruption.


There is no great secret to Pippen's success. His long arms, agility, timing and instinct are more responsible for Chicago's defensive success than any pre-game chalk diagram. Pippen has been disrupting offenses for as long as he has been in the league.


This post-season alone, he shut down Charlotte's Glen Rice in the second round and discombobulated the Pacers' offense in the Eastern Conference finals.


Whereas everyone remembers Steve Kerr's game-winning shot in Game 6 of last season's finals against the Jazz, few recall what happened moments later. Pippen deflected the inbounds pass on the other end to Toni Kukoc, who dunked to seal the victory and Chicago's fifth title.

''He could be the best defensive player playing,'' Malone said.


Jazz guard Jeff Hornacek said: ''They're pushing the pick-and-roll. We handled it in Game 1 when John was driving to the baseline and getting the shot off right then. Now, with Pippen running all over the place, they can afford to push John, and the big guy can step out on John a little more and get a trap on him. And Pippen can go fill the passing lanes. He's roaming out there.

''We have to figure out a way to get around that. If we do that, we'll be able to execute our offense.''

http://www.nytimes.com/1998/06/09/sports/nba-finals-every-turn-jazz-finds-pippen-bulls-consummate-defender-picks-apart.html

This article was not written by some stan nearly two decades later but rather by the NBA reporter for the nation's premier newspaper at the time. Yet since Pippen scored only 8 or 10 points in the game (I think Pip's stat line--the only thing many MJ stans grasp--was 10/4/4) several MJ stans actually have pointed to this very game to diminish Pippen's role in the 98' Finals (this is because many MJ stans did not watch MJ due to age in the 90's)! Keep in mind Utah had the #1 offense that year.

MJ stans are the worst because so much of their identity is and has long been invested in being on the biggest bandwagon of all-time. Therefore any threat to MJ's status as the "clear GOAT" is also inherently a threat to their self-identity. Hence the recent obsession with diminishing LeBron--despite MJ stans for years being neutral or moderately positive toward LeBron when it was Kobe who was seen as the big threat to Mike.

[They Won]

.

A) Kobe Bryant, 2000 Finals - 18 PPG, 36% FG

B) Lebron James, 2011 Finals - 17 PPG, 47% FG

C) Scottie Pippen, 1998 Finals - 15 PPG 42% FG

D) Dwayne Wade, 2014 Finals - 15 PPG, 42% FG


Which one was the worst?


ONLY going off this info, it is Kobe and LeBron was the best. But there is so much more to this than the stats presented.

[97 bulls]

Notice how MJ stans never mention defense when bringing up 98'? Pippen led Chicago to 3 of their wins (CHI took a 3-1 lead) and was the front-runner, at the time, for FMVP before he blew out his back late in the series!

THE N.B.A. FINALS: At Every Turn, Jazz Finds Pippen; The Bulls' Consummate Defender Picks Apart the Pick-and-Roll

By MIKE WISE

Published: June 9, 1998











http://www.nytimes.com/1998/06/09/sports/nba-finals-every-turn-jazz-finds-pippen-bulls-consummate-defender-picks-apart.html

This article was not written by some stan nearly two decades later but rather by the NBA reporter for the nation's premier newspaper at the time. Yet since Pippen scored only 8 or 10 points in the game (I think Pip's stat line--the only thing many MJ stans grasp--was 10/4/4) several MJ stans actually have pointed to this very game to diminish Pippen's role in the 98' Finals (this is because many MJ stans did not watch MJ due to age in the 90's)! Keep in mind Utah had the #1 offense that year.

MJ stans are the worst because so much of their identity is and has long been invested in being on the biggest bandwagon of all-time. Therefore any threat to MJ's status as the "clear GOAT" is also inherently a threat to their self-identity. Hence the recent obsession with diminishing LeBron--despite MJ stans for years being neutral or moderately positive toward LeBron when it was Kobe who was seen as the big threat to Mike.
Beast mode

[97 bulls]

Reading those snippets make me think of all the clutch defensive plays Pip made through the Bulls run, shutting down Magic in 91, shuttung down Drexler in 92 game six during the fourth quarter and leading the Bulls back from a 15pt deficit, the game saving blocks on Charles Smith, the steal to save and win the series in 97, giving Mark Jackson fits in the 98 ECF, spearheading that record setting blowout vs the number 1 offense in the Jazz and shutting down Stockton.

I can't think of a player that has had success or have been as clutch defensively in the playoffs as Pippen.

I mean just think, Magic, Jackson, and Stockton are top three alltime in assists and Pippen shut all three of them down.

[3ball]

Pip shutting down Magic in 91


Jordan guarded Magic for every single quarter in the 1991 Finals except two - Pippen only guarding Magic for the 2nd quarter in Game 2, and the 2nd quarter of Game 3 - THAT'S IT - here are all 5 games, so anyone can see for themselves:

Game 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWhxdhU9KSI
Game 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVX0D6K12v8
Game 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6SRq4eAafIU
Game 4: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AV7kewDeHPU
Game 5: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TrfuqseL1lg

Also, Magic averaged 19 PPG and 12 assists... so he didn't get shut down anyway.





shuttung down Drexler during the fourth quarter of game 6 in 92 finals and leading the Bulls back from a 15pt deficit


that's interesting - i've never heard this one before - probably because it's completely irrelevant - not only did Drexler score on Pippen during the 5 minutes that Jordan was on the bench, but Jordan guarded Drexler the entire series and held him to 40% shooting... typical of a jordan-hater to overlook jordan's entire body of work.





the game saving blocks on Charles Smith, the steal to save and win the series in 97,


another lie - horace grant got the first block, jordan got the 2nd, pippen got the 3rd and 4th.

this was the crucial game 5 that broke the series tie and allowed the Bulls to go up 3-2... it's one of the biggest games of the entire dynasty - of course, Jordan had 29 points, 10 rebounds, and 14 assists.





giving Mark Jackson fits in the 98 ECF,


mark jackson was the slowest player in the league at that time... it's not impressive to guard him well... you or i could guard him.





shutting down Stockton.


Pippen didn't guard stockton the entire series - Pippen NEVER guarded Stockton.. Otoh, Jordan was a SG and guarded Stockton all the time - he guarded Stockton quite a bit in both the 97' and 98 Finals..





All the defensive plays during the Bulls runs


Jordan played elite defense, which is what allowed him to set the all-time record with 9 straight 1st Team All-Defensive Team selections - however, it gets overlooked by fans because his offense was GOAT, so that gets all the focus.

Pippen's defense had actually declined significantly by 1998... 19-year Kobe could take Scottie AT WILL in 1998 (i might make a thread on this because kobe's highlights on pippen in 1998 were astoundingly embarrassing for scottie.. like, it was SUPER EASY for kobe against pippen), whereas I don't think kobe abuses the 1990 version of Scottie at all.

Scottie finished the 1998 Finals scoring only 6 points, 10 points and 8 points in three of the last four games... this pathetic performance at the most critical juncture forced MJ to score 38% of his team's points for the series, a Finals record.. Based on MJ scoring a higher proportion of his team's points than anyone in history, there is solid basis to state that that he won the 1998 Finals more by himself than anyone in history.

[3ball]

THREAD CLIFFS:

The GOAT can't ever be a 2nd option, and damn sure can't perform poorly as one - so if you're on this list, you ain't anywhere near the GOAT.

[Magic 32]

.

A) Kobe Bryant, 2000 Finals - 18 PPG, 36% FG

B) Lebron James, 2011 Finals - 17 PPG, 47% FG

C) Scottie Pippen, 1998 Finals - 15 PPG 42% FG

D) Dwayne Wade, 2014 Finals - 15 PPG, 42% FG

Which one was the worst?




A) Kobe Bryant, 2000 Finals - Weak Ankle

B) Lebron James, 2011 Finals - Weak Spine

C) Scottie Pippen, 1998 Finals - Weak Back

D) Dwayne Wade, 2014 Finals - Weak Knee's

[TheMarkMadsen]

Pippen put up more rebounds, more assist, more steals, more blocks than Jordan in multiple nba finals

so underrated

his combined finals stats from 92 & 93

21/9/7/2/1 on 47%..26 PER

but 3ball keep act like Pippen wasn't shit

[Magic 32]

Ranking the Finals of MJ / LeBron / Kobe:

The Best:

1) MJ '93 Finals
2) MJ '92 Finals
3) MJ '91 Finals
4) MJ '97 Finals
5) LeBron 2012 Finals

Good:

6) LeBron 2013 Finals
7) Kobe 2009 Finals
8) MJ '98 Finals
9) Kobe 2002 Finals

Average:

10) Kobe 2010 Finals
11) Kobe 2001 Finals
12) MJ '96 Finals
13) LeBron 2014 Finals
14) Kobe 2008 Finals
15) Kobe 2000 Finals

The Worst:

16) LeBron 2007 Finals
17) Kobe 2004 Finals
18) LeBron 2011 Finals

MJ underperformed in 1996, but it's often exaggerated. He faced one of the best all-time perimeter defenders in Gary Payton, and faced the best team defense not named the Bulls that season.

He also dropped 36 in what was tantamount to the series clinching game on the road in hostile Seattle for game 3. MJ was by far the best player that game or up until that point in the series. Even though he was missing normal shots he made all season.

I think his extra muscle mass he gained before the season wore down his knees, and stamina. Thus why he dropped weight for the 1997 season and looked a bit quicker, as well as more explosive.


I would go even further and split individual games into bad/good/great.

Reason for this can clearly be seen by looking at Kobe's 2001 finals.

His game 1 against the 76'ers was so statically atrocious that it severely damaged his overall stats for series. He had 3 exellent games following that game (27.3ppg, 8rpg, 6 apg 45.5 fg%)

[SouBeachTalents]

Based on MJ scoring a higher proportion of his team's points than anyone in history, there is solid basis to state that that he won the 1998 Finals more by himself than anyone in history.

That's a cute stat, but there's more to basketball than just points. I'd argue the following either had to carry an overall larger burden than Jordan did, or received less contributions from their teammates than Jordan did in '98

2000 Shaq
2003 Duncan
1975 Barry
1994 Hakeem
2006 Wade

[Hey Yo]

THREAD CLIFFS:

The GOAT can't ever be a 2nd option, and damn sure can't perform poorly as one - so if you're on this list, you ain't anywhere near the GOAT.
The only time James was 2nd option in his career was in the 2011 Finals cause he let himself be so, for the sake of Wade. We saw how that worked out.

Before the following season, Wade publicly states that it's LeBron's team now.

It's not a coincidence that the Heat won B2B titles with James now being the first option in the Finals. He led his team in points, rebounds, assists, and steals.

How many B2B titles did Jordan win (in his 2nd and 3rd title runs) while leading his team in all 4 categories?

[Roundball_Rock]

Pippen put up more rebounds, more assist, more steals, more blocks than Jordan in multiple nba finals

so underrated

his combined finals stats from 92 & 93

21/9/7/2/1 on 47%..26 PER

but 3ball keep act like Pippen wasn't shit

Excluding a game where Pip was playing with a bad back and was in and out of the game (he was there as a decoy--something 3ball conveniently failed to mention when he reference that game), Pippen's averages for the Finals are 20/8/6 over 34 games along with dominant defense and leadership (i.e. Pippen was the "quarterback" of the team and directing the offense and defense) it is not surprising his team's won 6 rings. How many teams had a second option like that during the 1991-1998 period? Pippen was integral to Chicago's success. The facts speak for themselves: look at Chicago's regular season and playoff performance from 1985-1989 without Pippen in the starting lineup. :D


there is solid basis to state that that he won the 1998 Finals more by himself than anyone in history.

:roll:

Which is why most observers had Pippen as the FMVP when Chicago led 3-1. Defense is half of basketball--MJ was the #4 option on defense in the 98' Finals. Harper guarded Stockton, Pippen played linebacker and wrecked Utah, and Rodman guarded Malone.

[SouBeachTalents]

The only time James was 2nd option in his career was in the 2011 Finals cause he let himself be so, for the sake of Wade. We saw how that worked out.

If LeBron doesn't have a NINE ppg drop off from his regular season average or scores 12-15 points in Game 4, it would have resulted in a championship

[Magic 32]

The only time James was 2nd option in his career was in the 2011 Finals cause he let himself be so, for the sake of Wade. We saw how that worked out.


The problem was not James being a secong option.

The problem was that was a crappy one.

[Hey Yo]

The problem was not James being a secong option.

The problem was that was a crappy one.
Yes, that was the problem.

He was a crappy one because he was asked to do something "all of a sudden" that he hadn't done in his 8yr NBA career or since maybe his early H.S career.

[NBAplayoffs2001]

.

A) Kobe Bryant, 2000 Finals - 18 PPG, 36% FG

B) Lebron James, 2011 Finals - 17 PPG, 47% FG

C) Scottie Pippen, 1998 Finals - 15 PPG 42% FG

D) Dwayne Wade, 2014 Finals - 15 PPG, 42% FG


Which one was the worst?


A- Can't say much about A since Jalen Rose purposely injured him.
B- His lack of production in big games never ceases to amaze me
C- They won didn' they?
D- Wade has never been the same since 2011. Never had a consistent jumpshot or anything. Just relied on slashing ability for far too long. 09 was the only year he had a legit 3 point shot.

[Magic 32]

Yes, that was the problem.

He was a crappy one because he was asked to do something "all of a sudden" that he hadn't done in his 8yr NBA career or since maybe his early H.S career.

You mean being clutch?

He was out there alone when Wade was taken out down the stretch (G4/G5).

He did nothing.

[97 bulls]

Jordan guarded Magic for every single quarter in the 1991 Finals except two - Pippen only guarding Magic for the 2nd quarter in Game 2, and the 2nd quarter of Game 3 - THAT'S IT - here are all 5 games, so anyone can see for themselves:

Game 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWhxdhU9KSI
Game 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVX0D6K12v8
Game 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6SRq4eAafIU
Game 4: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AV7kewDeHPU
Game 5: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TrfuqseL1lg

Also, Magic averaged 19 PPG and 12 assists... so he didn't get shut down anyway.



that's interesting - i've never heard this one before - probably because it's completely irrelevant - not only did Drexler score on Pippen during the 5 minutes that Jordan was on the bench, but Jordan guarded Drexler the entire series and held him to 40% shooting... typical of a jordan-hater to overlook jordan's entire body of work.



another lie - horace grant got the first block, jordan got the 2nd, pippen got the 3rd and 4th.

this was the crucial game 5 that broke the series tie and allowed the Bulls to go up 3-2... it's one of the biggest games of the entire dynasty - of course, Jordan had 29 points, 10 rebounds, and 14 assists.



mark jackson was the slowest player in the league at that time... it's not impressive to guard him well... you or i could guard him.



Pippen didn't guard stockton the entire series - Pippen NEVER guarded Stockton.. Otoh, Jordan was a SG and guarded Stockton all the time - he guarded Stockton quite a bit in both the 97' and 98 Finals..



Jordan played elite defense, which is what allowed him to set the all-time record with 9 straight 1st Team All-Defensive Team selections - however, it gets overlooked by fans because his offense was GOAT, so that gets all the focus.

Pippen's defense had actually declined significantly by 1998... 19-year Kobe could take Scottie AT WILL in 1998 (i might make a thread on this because kobe's highlights on pippen in 1998 were astoundingly embarrassing for scottie.. like, it was SUPER EASY for kobe against pippen), whereas I don't think kobe abuses the 1990 version of Scottie at all.

Scottie finished the 1998 Finals scoring only 6 points, 10 points and 8 points in three of the last four games... this pathetic performance at the most critical juncture forced MJ to score 38% of his team's points for the series, a Finals record.. Based on MJ scoring a higher proportion of his team's points than anyone in history, there is solid basis to state that that he won the 1998 Finals more by himself than anyone in history.
Lol. Its like arguing with a woman. You're literally denying facts in an effort to troll people. I say troll because you dont even believe the nonsense youre saying. Even Jordan himself would tell you to shut the hell up.

[97 bulls]

Excluding a game where Pip was playing with a bad back and was in and out of the game (he was there as a decoy--something 3ball conveniently failed to mention when he reference that game), Pippen's averages for the Finals are 20/8/6 over 34 games along with dominant defense and leadership (i.e. Pippen was the "quarterback" of the team and directing the offense and defense) it is not surprising his team's won 6 rings. How many teams had a second option like that during the 1991-1998 period? Pippen was integral to Chicago's success. The facts speak for themselves: look at Chicago's regular season and playoff performance from 1985-1989 without Pippen in the starting lineup. :D



:roll:

Which is why most observers had Pippen as the FMVP when Chicago led 3-1. Defense is half of basketball--MJ was the #4 option on defense in the 98' Finals. Harper guarded Stockton, Pippen played linebacker and wrecked Utah, and Rodman guarded Malone.
He doesn't care about the facts. He'll just ignore it or literally call it a lie. You can't have a discussion with a person like this.

[Droid101]

Anyone who defends LeBron's 2011 finals in any way (he was being nice! defer to Wade! good teammate! his teammates froze him out! Wade didn't want to lose FMVP!) is a ****ing trolling idiot.

[Wade's Rings]

The only time James was 2nd option in his career was in the 2011 Finals cause he let himself be so, for the sake of Wade. We saw how that worked out.

Before the following season, Wade publicly states that it's LeBron's team now.

It's not a coincidence that the Heat won B2B titles with James now being the first option in the Finals. He led his team in points, rebounds, assists, and steals.

How many B2B titles did Jordan win (in his 2nd and 3rd title runs) while leading his team in all 4 categories?

No you clown LeBron choked and collapsed in the biggest series of his Career, at that point in time, and robbed the Heat Franchise of a Title and Wade of his 2nd Finals MVP. Him "choosing" to be a 2nd option aren't why he averaged 2 points in the 4th and was non existent on Defense.

Wade didn't have help and that's why they lost. Look what happened when Lebron didn't have help in 2014.