Who started the myth about Kobe not being very athletic?

[sportjames23]

As you can see in the NBA stars dunking on other stars thread, Kobe had some crazy dunks back in his Frobe days (and even some when he first switched to #24).

Was it because some say he wasn't as athletic as the likes of VC, MJ and Nique?

I challenge that notion. No, I'm not saying Bean was more athletic than, say, Vince, but Kobe's always been in that group of greatest athletes in NBA history, IMO. A group I believe consists of, in no particular order:

MJ
Vince
Nique
Glyde
Pip
Dr. J
Ron Harper (before his first knee injury)
David Thompson
Kobe
Lebron
Wade


I'm sure I'm forgetting quite a few, and I'm mainly thinking of guys I either grew up watching or know about because of NBA history (only saw the last few years of Dr. J's career and non of Thomspon's career). But any list about the greatest athletes in NBA history has to include Jellybean Bryant's son.

[CavaliersFTW]

As you can see in the NBA stars dunking on other stars thread, Kobe had some crazy dunks back in his Frobe days (and even some when he first switched to #24).

Was it because some say he wasn't as athletic as the likes of VC, MJ and Nique?

I challenge that notion. No, I'm not saying Bean was more athletic than, say, Vince, but Kobe's always been in that group of greatest athletes in NBA history, IMO. A group I believe consists of, in no particular order:

MJ
Vince
Nique
Glyde
Pip
Dr. J
Ron Harper (before his first knee injury)
David Thompson
Kobe
Lebron
Wade


I'm sure I'm forgetting quite a few, and I'm mainly thinking of guys I either grew up watching or know about because of NBA history (only saw the last few years of Dr. J's career and non of Thomspon's career). But any list about the greatest athletes in NBA history has to include Jellybean Bryant's son.
Prime Gus Johnson would likely scare the shit out of half of those guys. Just as good a leaper, very aggressive and just as agile but stronger than all of them save for Lebron.

Also... how are any of them better athletes than say, Wilt Chamberlain? What's your criteria for athletic?

Of course Kobe's an all-time great athlete, anyone who says he isn't is just trolling. He's one of the most athletic wings there has been.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Hyperbole to over exaggerate Kobe's "every man" quality in comparison to LeBron in particular. Kobe was always extremely athletic. He's just a notch below the Jordan, and LeBron class. Which there is no shame, those are transcendent athletes.

[sportjames23]

Prime Gus Johnson would likely scare the shit out of half of those guys. Just as good a leaper, very aggressive and just as agile but stronger than all of them save for Lebron.

Also... how are any of them better athletes than say, Wilt Chamberlain? What's your criteria for athletic?

Of course Kobe's an all-time great athlete, anyone who says he isn't is just trolling. He's one of the most athletic wings there has been.


I'm mostly thinking about wing players, though Wilt was most definitely one of the most athletic guys in NBA history. And you bringing up Gus Johnson (who was a beast) reminded me of Connie Hawkins.

[fpliii]

Prime Gus Johnson
Kinda OT, but would you say Gus was the first generational wing athlete? Chronologically, who else in league history, is at or near his level in your opinion?

[buddha]

it was started because Kobe is always compared to MJ who is more athletic than him. but compared to the average NBA player Kobe is an elite athlete.

a superstar that isn't very athletic is someone like Carmelo Anthony.

[sportjames23]

Kinda OT, but would you say Gus was the first generational wing athlete? Chronologically, who else in league history, is at or near his level in your opinion?

I'd say Elgin Baylor (another athletic great, though of course I've never seen him play, only highlights and what I know of NBA history).

[CavaliersFTW]

I'm mostly thinking about wing players, though Wilt was most definitely one of the most athletic guys in NBA history. And you bringing up Gus Johnson (who was a beast) reminded me of Connie Hawkins.
Connie was long and graceful and had giant hands. Like Kevin Durant but with among the biggest hands in history. Not necessarily athletic in the sense of strength. His leaping ability probably wasn't stupendous but he was 6-8 (probably without shoes) with a condor armspan so he could allegedly free throw line dunk in his youth. I think it was Hubie Brown who said he saw Hawkins do it.

If Hawkins makes the cut I don't know why Baylor couldn't be considered, what he lacked in say, Hawkins length or Vince Carters vertical he still matched them in equal body control while having some of that superior Lebron-like strength that absorbed contact better with his wide body. It's really tough to say I just know Gus Johnson was heralded as a legitimate freak in the 60's, in pure explosive leaping, and freakish strength and agility on top of it he was the total athletic package save for being injury prone.

[HOoopCityJones]

Hyperbole to over exaggerate Kobe's "every man" quality in comparison to LeBron in particular. Kobe was always extremely athletic. He's just a notch below the Jordan, and LeBron class. Which there is no shame, those are transcendent athletes.

Thanks for proving my point SWISH.

You get flat out asshurt when ever anyone gives Kobe any props.

You're obsessed.


Great thread OP.

[sportjames23]

Connie was long and graceful and had giant hands. Like Kevin Durant but with among the biggest hands in history. Not necessarily athletic in the sense of strength. His leaping ability probably wasn't stupendous but he was 6-8 (probably without shoes) with a condor armspan so he could allegedly free throw line dunk in his youth. I think it was Hubie Brown who said he saw Hawkins do it.

If Hawkins makes the cut I don't know why Baylor couldn't be considered, what he lacked in say, Hawkins length or Vince Carters vertical he still matched them in equal body control while having some of that superior Lebron-like strength that absorbed contact better with his wide body. It's really tough to say I just know Gus Johnson was heralded as a legitimate freak in the 60's, in pure explosive leaping, and freakish strength and agility on top of it he was the total athletic package save for being injury prone.


Yeah, Gus, Hawk and Baylor gotta be on the list.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Thanks for proving my point SWISH.

You get flat out asshurt when ever anyone gives Kobe any props.

You're obsessed.


Great thread OP.
I just gave Kobe props? TF you talking about? Psycho ... My original username here was "Mamba", I could be considered a Kobe fan. He's one of my three favorite players ever.

:biggums:

[HOoopCityJones]

I just gave Kobe props? TF you talking about? Psycho ... My original username here was "Mamba", I could be considered a Kobe fan. He's one of my three favorite players ever.

:biggums:

**** it, I'm over it. Just bringing bullshit from another thread and taking away from this good discussion. My bad.

[CavaliersFTW]

Kinda OT, but would you say Gus was the first generational wing athlete? Chronologically, who else in league history, is at or near his level in your opinion?
Who is as athletic as him since him? Not too many guys. There have been plenty of agile wings that can leap out the building after him and maybe some during/before his time (though not many) but if you factor in his strength probably not many have quite equaled him after. So I don't know what you'd call him the first of. He's built a lot stronger than most wing players, he is to Charles Barkley what Wilt is to Shaq. A slightly taller longer, leaner, yet still possibly just as strong freak specimen. Gus in this case wasn't as good a player as Barkley though, at least not on the offensive end.

Johnson was so strong and had such long arms and was so useful at grabbing rebounds he was used more as the inside/power forward on the Bullets. Even though according to Nate Thurmond he could handle the ball well with both hands. Actually, Gus Johnson and Nate Thurmond went to the same high school together. Despite the specimen Thurmond was, Gus Johnson was that teams center.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Just bringing bullshit from another thread and taking away from this good discussion. My bad.
:cheers:

Shouldn't have said what I did to you about your weight bro. I don't know you like that ... you could be Hulk sized ready to whip my ass for all I know.

Let's keep it topic related. SMH if you think I don't like Kobe though. I just dropped crazy money for floor seats on Christmas trying to see Mamba up close one last time.

[RonSwanson]

No pre-injury Penny? Damn...

[SamuraiSWISH]

No pre-injury Penny? Damn...
Most unique, non swagger jacked MJ post game of all-time. So smooth.

[Mr Feeny]

**** it, I'm over it. Just bringing bullshit from another thread and taking away from this good discussion. My bad.

You're a clown. You're damn right it's "your bad", you insecure bellend.

[HOoopCityJones]

:cheers:

Shouldn't have said what I did to you about your weight bro. I don't know you like that ... you could be Hulk sized ready to whip my ass for all I know.

Let's keep it topic related. SMH if you think I don't like Kobe though. I just dropped crazy money for floor seats on Christmas trying to see Mamba up close one last time.

Yea, I remember you saying something about it. :oldlol:

Was that one of the sit out games? I forget.


Btw CavsFTW has me interested in looking up Gus Johnson now. :biggums:

[sportjames23]

No pre-injury Penny? Damn...


Aw, shit, forgot about him. And Grant Hill, now that you got me thinking.

[HOoopCityJones]

You're a clown. You're damn right it's "your bad", you insecure bellend.

I'll pray for your Immortal soul. May Allah bless you in all of your endeavors. :D

[CavaliersFTW]

Most unique, non swagger jacked MJ post game of all-time. So smooth.
MJ Swagger jacked Wilt Chamberlains post game.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Was that one of the sit out games? I forget.
Yea, I locked eyes with him twice and just shook my head. He looked pissed not to play though. So I respect that he probably wanted to be out there. At half time he spoke elequently about the quality of Chicago's fans, Jordan being his muse, and inspiration. No wonder he wanted to play here in 2007. He really respects this franchise, and city.

[CavaliersFTW]

Yea, I remember you saying something about it. :oldlol:

Was that one of the sit out games? I forget.


Btw CavsFTW has me interested in looking up Gus Johnson now. :biggums:
Only like 1% of his career exists on film.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uchAeIUAZco

So you won't see "Career highlights" just a few random plays lucky to exist.

His career highlights would have included 3 shattered backboards, and several free-throw line dunks during games one of them over Willis Reed. The descriptions whether you choose to believe them or not paint him to be like a Vince Carter/Barkley hybrid or something along those lines. He was 6-6 (I don't know if that's a without shoes measurement or not) 235-255lbs and you can see he's got really long arms and a good explosive leap in that footage even if it isn't all highlight plays.

[Mr Feeny]

I'll pray for your Immortal soul. May Allah bless you in all of your endeavors. :D

I'm guessing you're muslim?
What the heck was that about...:biggums:

[HOoopCityJones]

Yea, I locked eyes with him twice and just shook my head. He looked pissed not to play though. So I respect that he probably wanted to be out there. At half time he spoke elequently about the quality of Chicago's fans, Jordan being his muse, and inspiration. No wonder he wanted to play here in 2007. He really respects this franchise, and city.

I wouldn't of blamed him for leaving. The only good player the Laker FO tried to surround him with in his prime was Caron Butler, then they traded him. No excuse for being surrounded by Smush, Mihm and Kwame for so long.

Glad he didn't go tho.

[HOoopCityJones]

I'm guessing you're muslim?
What the heck was that about...:biggums:

Nah, my chick is. Just tired of arguing over stupid shit.

You think Kobe sucks? Fuccin rock and roll.

[Genaro]

Westbrook?

[Mr Feeny]

I wouldn't of blamed him for leaving. The only good player the Laker FO tried to surround him with in his prime was Caron Butler, then they traded him. No excuse for being surrounded by Smush, Mihm and Kwame for so long.

Glad he didn't go tho.

Debatable . Many wold argue that he was the main reason behind the disintegration of the Lakers. Phil Jackson wore in his book that Kobe wanted to be the main man.

Regardless, atleast that dispels the "loyal" nonsense that you Kobe stans spout out there. He wanted out first chance he got.

[T_L_P]

Some of his fans did.

They think saying Kobe doing what he did with 'skill, not genetics' somehow makes him a greater player.

It doesn't. Kobe was athletic as ****, and that's a damn good thing.

[HOoopCityJones]

Debatable . Many wold argue that he was the main reason behind the disintegration of the Lakers. Phil Jackson wore in his book that Kobe wanted to be the main man.

Regardless, atleast that dispels the "loyal" nonsense that you Kobe stans spout out there. He wanted out first chance he got.

I think he's very loyal, otherwise he would have left. Either way to each his own.

Off topic as well.

[Mr Feeny]

I think he's very loyal, otherwise he would have left. Either way to each his own.

Off topic as well.

I can think that from here till tomorrow. Doesn't make it anymore true. Paxon blocked Kobe's dream move. That doesn't make him loyal.

[Mr Feeny]

I like swish:rockon:

[sportjames23]

Only like 1% of his career exists on film.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uchAeIUAZco

So you won't see "Career highlights" just a few random plays lucky to exist.

His career highlights would have included 3 shattered backboards, and several free-throw line dunks during games one of them over Willis Reed. The descriptions whether you choose to believe them or not paint him to be like a Vince Carter/Barkley hybrid or something along those lines. He was 6-6 (I don't know if that's a without shoes measurement or not) 235-255lbs and you can see he's got really long arms and a good explosive leap in that footage even if it isn't all highlight plays.


:eek:

I've seen very, very few highlights of Gus. DAMN, he was a beast.

This is one thing I really hate about the NBA. The NBA has TONS of games and footage in the archives, but all they ever do is regurgitate the same shit all the time. They've been doing that as far as I can remember.

[CavaliersFTW]

:eek:

I've seen very, very few highlights of Gus. DAMN, he was a beast.

This is one thing I really hate about the NBA. The NBA has TONS of games and footage in the archives, but all they ever do is regurgitate the same shit all the time. They've been doing that as far as I can remember.
He also probably scared the shit out of opponents http://youtu.be/h9QzIaXcfhg?t=1m41s

Apparently he fought the entire Seattle team once. Guys like Wes Unseld and Willis Reed, who are two of the scariest dudes I can think of from the 60's and early 70's, talk about Gus like he was the "man" on the court any time the Kicks and Bullets were playing each other. Gus stories and testimony IMO are about as fascinating to read or listen to as Wilt's. Gus is so much less known but in a lot of ways the stories surrounding his athletic feats and personality are also larger than life.

[CavaliersFTW]

A brief early 90's bit on Gus: http://youtu.be/ryvhmEFxaAk?t=16m4s

[HOoopCityJones]

A brief early 90's bit on Gus: http://youtu.be/ryvhmEFxaAk?t=16m4s

Thanks.:cheers:

[sportjames23]

A brief early 90's bit on Gus: http://youtu.be/ryvhmEFxaAk?t=16m4s


HAHA, I got this original video on VHS (along with a whole bunch of others from the late 80s/early 90s--NBA Home Video was the shit back then). Matter of fact, this video is the extent of all the Gus Johnson highlights I'd seen before you posted that other link.

[pauk]

Those who underrate his athleticism to magnify that it all was much more about skills with him, like that he was some Larry Bird or something....

Kobe was a ridicilous athlete at his athletic peak/prime, at the SG spot right behind Michael Jordan as the most perfect combination of speed/quickness/strength/vertical/endurance/size ive seen, Vince Carter had some inch on him when speaking of vertical and Harold Miner even more so, but Kobe was actually more athletic at everything else.

[AirFederer]

No doubt Kobe was elite, just not a one in a generation kind, like MJ.

He also had Mad skillz, it's just his ego letting him down sometimes that's his problem...

Gus seems to have gigantic hands! Sick!

[tgan3]

Kobe is athletic but does not have overwhelming jaw dropping athleticism like Carter, Gerald Green, J-Rich etc...That's not to take anything from him though, he has his own style, his more of a glider than a leaper to me..Like Clyde Drexler, he has a graceful dunking style..

[No_Look604]

Kobe's nuts on Dwight's forehead prove otherwise.

[Elosha]

Only like 1% of his career exists on film.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uchAeIUAZco

So you won't see "Career highlights" just a few random plays lucky to exist.

His career highlights would have included 3 shattered backboards, and several free-throw line dunks during games one of them over Willis Reed. The descriptions whether you choose to believe them or not paint him to be like a Vince Carter/Barkley hybrid or something along those lines. He was 6-6 (I don't know if that's a without shoes measurement or not) 235-255lbs and you can see he's got really long arms and a good explosive leap in that footage even if it isn't all highlight plays.

Hmm, with all due respect to a very good player, the footage of Gus Johnson that you posted, as limited as it is, doesn't suggest an athlete who is really a particularly explosive leaper by today's standards. For instance, here are three breakaway dunks in the video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uchAeIUAZco&x-yt-ts=1421914688&feature=player_detailpage&x-yt-cl=84503534#t=103

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uchAeIUAZco&x-yt-ts=1421914688&feature=player_detailpage&x-yt-cl=84503534#t=125

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uchAeIUAZco&x-yt-ts=1421914688&feature=player_detailpage&x-yt-cl=84503534#t=191

All of these dunks are unimpeded breakaways, yet Johnson jumps off one leg from 6-7 feet away in each of them and barely gets his head to the bottom of the net. None of his other dunks in the video off one or two feet, shows his head anywhere near rim level.

For a player who supposedly dunked from the free throw line several times during games and OVER Willis Reed (both feats unheard of for any other player), these dunks are extraordinarily pedestrian. Again, I know the footage is very limited, but it is certainly of more weight than urban legend "tall tales" of mythic dunking ability. The videos show no evidence that Gus Johnson was anywhere close that that caliber of a leaper.

The stories you cite would put him as possibly the greatest NBA one foot leaper of all time. The video shows him to be a powerful player who dunks hard, but nowhere near capable of the stories told about him. I'm chalking up those stories to tall tales, absent much more compelling evidence. This is why I always prefer the video evidence for older players, rather than potentially biased and/or inaccurate stories told many years after the fact.

As for Kobe, there's no doubt he's one of the most explosive and athletic shooting guards of all time. His first step was equal to or just a notch below Jordan's, and he was a borderline elite two foot jumper and a decent, but not great, one foot jumper. He was also very fast end to end and when you combine his slick handles and offensive repertoire with his quickness and leaping ability, he was very difficult, and at times impossible, to guard during his prime.

[AnaheimLakers24]

Bran stans for some reason

[Dragonyeuw]

Vince Carter had some inch on him when speaking of vertical and Harold Miner even more so, but Kobe was actually more athletic at everything else.

Vince was a better leaper( obviously) but didn't have the lateral quickness that Kobe had.

[Dro]

Kobe was an excellent leaper, the way he could contort his body to finish shots in traffic........Being athletic isn't just about finishing at the rim.....You have to be athletic to pull off those fadeaways and his footwork is excellent also......All of that is part of being a great athlete.....He was a great defender too.....

[ImKobe]

He's not in the top tier of elite NBA athletes.

The "Myth" was that Kobe wasn't nearly as athletic as Jordan, Lebron, Vince...are you going to argue that? His vertical wasn't anywhere close and he could never finish that well through contact nor make as many contested layups/dunks because of his small hands.

Just because he was creative as hell with his dunks and could dunk on big men doesn't mean he's in the same category.

[LBJ 23]

He's not in the top tier of elite NBA athletes.

The "Myth" was that Kobe wasn't nearly as athletic as Jordan, Lebron, Vince...are you going to argue that? His vertical wasn't anywhere close and he could never finish that well through contact nor make as many contested layups/dunks because of his small hands.

Just because he was creative as hell with his dunks and could dunk on big men doesn't mean he's in the same category.


Prime Kobe was a better 2 feet leaper than Lebron. And because of that he should be much better than Lebron and should make a game much easier for him. Just ask 3ball :oldlol:

[AlphaWolf24]

amazing athlete in his prime....

any perimeter player that makes the all defensive team for over a decade.....has to be....

lateral speed and core strength is a must.

[CavaliersFTW]

Hmm, with all due respect to a very good player, the footage of Gus Johnson that you posted, as limited as it is, doesn't suggest an athlete who is really a particularly explosive leaper by today's standards. For instance, here are three breakaway dunks in the video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uchAeIUAZco&x-yt-ts=1421914688&feature=player_detailpage&x-yt-cl=84503534#t=103

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uchAeIUAZco&x-yt-ts=1421914688&feature=player_detailpage&x-yt-cl=84503534#t=125

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uchAeIUAZco&x-yt-ts=1421914688&feature=player_detailpage&x-yt-cl=84503534#t=191

All of these dunks are unimpeded breakaways, yet Johnson jumps off one leg from 6-7 feet away in each of them and barely gets his head to the bottom of the net. None of his other dunks in the video off one or two feet, shows his head anywhere near rim level.

For a player who supposedly dunked from the free throw line several times during games and OVER Willis Reed (both feats unheard of for any other player), these dunks are extraordinarily pedestrian. Again, I know the footage is very limited, but it is certainly of more weight than urban legend "tall tales" of mythic dunking ability. The videos show no evidence that Gus Johnson was anywhere close that that caliber of a leaper.

The stories you cite would put him as possibly the greatest NBA one foot leaper of all time. The video shows him to be a powerful player who dunks hard, but nowhere near capable of the stories told about him. I'm chalking up those stories to tall tales, absent much more compelling evidence. This is why I always prefer the video evidence for older players, rather than potentially biased and/or inaccurate stories told many years after the fact.

As for Kobe, there's no doubt he's one of the most explosive and athletic shooting guards of all time. His first step was equal to or just a notch below Jordan's, and he was a borderline elite two foot jumper and a decent, but not great, one foot jumper. He was also very fast end to end and when you combine his slick handles and offensive repertoire with his quickness and leaping ability, he was very difficult, and at times impossible, to guard during his prime.
He's a great leaper, none of what you dissect matters here because:

1% of footage exists ONE PERCENT

ONE RANDOM PERCENT

Take one random percent of Vince Carters career, and he's a shitty looking leaper on film too. Seriously. I don't think you understand how few and far between a highlight reel dunk with extreme elevation happens, either that or you don't understand how few 1% is. Gus Johnson doesn't jump high on 3 break aways? Cool. He only dunks what, 10 times in the footage I've got? We're missing what, 1,000 of his career dunks?

Including several descriptions where it is specifically stated he took off from the free throw line, and 3 instances of shattering a backboard. Who cares if he's taking it easy on three break aways in this footage was he supposed to have leaped as high as was humanly possible every damn time he ran a fast break? And he from standing position grabs the middle of the backboard trying to block someones shots in this footage, that is incredibly explosive leaping ability. Lebron, one of the "greatest athletes ever" in league history, and I've watched about 30 Cavs games so far this season. None of what I've seen in any of those 30 games would convince any of you guys he was a "40 inch vertical" player. It takes rare plays to really showcase great athletes showing how high they can elevate. There's like 14 random games worth of Gus Johnson on film. Roll the dice, take 14 random games of Lebron, or Vince. You will have a tough time finding footage that does their athleticism they displayed throughout their careers justice. There's a lot more routine plays and vanilla dunks than highlight ones.

[Psileas]

He's a great leaper, none of what you dissect matters here because:

1% of footage exists ONE PERCENT

ONE RANDOM PERCENT

Take one random percent of Vince Carters career, and he's a shitty looking leaper on film too. Seriously. I don't think you understand how few and far between a highlight reel dunk with extreme elevation happens, either that or you don't understand how few 1% is. Gus Johnson doesn't jump high on 3 break aways? Cool. He only dunks what, 10 times in the footage I've got? We're missing what, 1,000 of his career dunks?

Including several descriptions where it is specifically stated he took off from the free throw line, and 3 instances of shattering a backboard. Who cares if he's taking it easy on three break aways in this footage was he supposed to have leaped as high as was humanly possible every damn time he ran a fast break? And he from standing position grabs the middle of the backboard trying to block someones shots in this footage, that is incredibly explosive leaping ability. Lebron, one of the "greatest athletes ever" in league history, and I've watched about 30 Cavs games so far this season. None of what I've seen in any of those 30 games would convince any of you guys he was a "40 inch vertical" player. It takes rare plays to really showcase great athletes showing how high they can elevate. There's like 14 random games worth of Gus Johnson on film. Roll the dice, take 14 random games of Lebron, or Vince. You will have a tough time finding footage that does their athleticism they displayed throughout their careers justice. There's a lot more routine plays and vanilla dunks than highlight ones.

Is it even 1 random percent? I'm not sure about the distribution, in that for all the players of those eras, more footage from their later seasons exists than the early ones (see: Wilt, Baylor, West...). Gus faced lots of injury problems, missed dozens of games in several seasons and definitely wasn't anywhere near as athletic in the 70's as in the 60's. What I see in many of these clips are plays taken from the 70's, including the 1971 Finals, plays when he dunks while he has his foot bandaged, etc. So, this isn't even like showing 1% of Vince Carter, it's more like this 1% can be broken into 30% of Toronto Carter, 30-40% of N.J Carter (already a notch below his athletic prime) and 30-40% of Orlando/Memphis/whateverelse Carter (a joke compared to his prime), while he actually produced like 65% of his highlights as a Raptor, 30% as a Net and 5% later on.
Look at the play at 0:30. He bends his head in the air, he doesn't fully extend his hand and he still comes close to touching the top of the square, which reveals much more athleticism than the few random dunks imply.

[oarabbus]

He's a great leaper, none of what you dissect matters here because:

1% of footage exists ONE PERCENT

ONE RANDOM PERCENT

Take one random percent of Vince Carters career, and he's a shitty looking leaper on film too. Seriously. I don't think you understand how few and far between a highlight reel dunk with extreme elevation happens, either that or you don't understand how few 1% is. Gus Johnson doesn't jump high on 3 break aways? Cool. He only dunks what, 10 times in the footage I've got? We're missing what, 1,000 of his career dunks?



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MNmU1esUF4k VC top 100 Dunks- Volume 1

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0jAPQb_dNw VC top 100 dunks - Volume 2

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLuLzCDu43w VC top 100 dunks - volume 3

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHG1g8IFbQk official VC channel top 100 dunks

There aren't any repeat dunks in volumes 1 and 2... so yeah that's a bit of hyperbole. There's "top 100" VC dunks from 8 years ago, 6 years ago, 1 year ago, perhaps the greatest ones (Weis) will always be in but the man has been churning out highlight plays for a long time now. Take 1% of VC's career and he looks like an AMAZING leaper, one legged, two legged, jamming over people, doesn't matter.

This is not to say that Gus Johnson doesn't have hundreds of incredible dunks that we have no record of; but it doesn't help your argument to make a claim that VC is unimpressive over a small sample of his career. Simply not the case.

[Smoke117]

Kobe stans.

[CavaliersFTW]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MNmU1esUF4k VC top 100 Dunks- Volume 1

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0jAPQb_dNw VC top 100 dunks - Volume 2

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLuLzCDu43w VC top 100 dunks - volume 3

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHG1g8IFbQk official VC channel top 100 dunks

There aren't any repeat dunks in volumes 1 and 2... so yeah that's a bit of hyperbole. There's "top 100" VC dunks from 8 years ago, 6 years ago, 1 year ago, perhaps the greatest ones (Weis) will always be in but the man has been churning out highlight plays for a long time now. Take 1% of VC's career and he looks like an AMAZING leaper, one legged, two legged, jamming over people, doesn't matter.

This is not to say that Gus Johnson doesn't have hundreds of incredible dunks that we have no record of; but it doesn't help your argument to make a claim that VC is unimpressive over a small sample of his career. Simply not the case.
Let me put it to you this way because I'm not sure you guys realize how few of Gus's career exists on film.

Take 7 or 8 random Vince games. Not prime vince, I mean random, like a college game half, 2 all-star games, some fragment plays from some playoffs that were designed to showcase team-ball (random plays vince was involved in, not ISO highlight material), and make sure half of the footage or more is post-Mavericks era Vince.

He's not going to look like the greatest leaper ever. Not even close, unless the random game samples happened to fall on a highlight play. Which for Gus, only one play is really a highlight play, his putback. There's 6 minutes of Gus Johnson touches that exists. A random 6 minutes at that, taking jump shots, passing, etc. There's no such thing as a top 100 dunk mix for Gus. Like 10 random dunks exist, and he attacked the rim to attempt a dunk 2 or 3 times a game which is a lot more than Elgin Baylor did, who only seemed to take the opportunity about once a game if that based on his FGM/dunk ratio that exists on film.

[CavaliersFTW]

Is it even 1 random percent? I'm not sure about the distribution, in that for all the players of those eras, more footage from their later seasons exists than the early ones (see: Wilt, Baylor, West...). Gus faced lots of injury problems, missed dozens of games in several seasons and definitely wasn't anywhere near as athletic in the 70's as in the 60's. What I see in many of these clips are plays taken from the 70's, including the 1971 Finals, plays when he dunks while he has his foot bandaged, etc. So, this isn't even like showing 1% of Vince Carter, it's more like this 1% can be broken into 30% of Toronto Carter, 30-40% of N.J Carter (already a notch below his athletic prime) and 30-40% of Orlando/Memphis/whateverelse Carter (a joke compared to his prime), while he actually produced like 65% of his highlights as a Raptor, 30% as a Net and 5% later on.
Look at the play at 0:30. He bends his head in the air, he doesn't fully extend his hand and he still comes close to touching the top of the square, which reveals much more athleticism than the few random dunks imply.
Spot on.

The most important thing to understand is how small the sample size is. Most mix makers, most vids you will ever see of any player from the 1980's onwards, came from a career, or majority of career existing on film. If you see a 6 minute Vince Carter mix, it's the best 6 minutes that mix maker decided to pull from a career size sample, or season, or w/e.

The 6 minutes of Gus? That's all that exists. Heck, a good portion of plays in that Gus reel is random plays in garbage time from Gus's last game of his career, and from a Bullets Finals half when he had no knees left and was in his mid 30's. It's random plays. An equally low and mixed sample size mix of Vince Carter would include very mundane looking plays such as backdoor layups and otherwise unimpressive looking plays from post-Mavs era too right? Maybe a few dunks, 2 or 3 might look pretty good? Everyone who would watch it without context would see pretty much the same thing they see in Gus.

[Cold soul]

I just gave Kobe props? TF you talking about? Psycho ... My original username here was "Mamba", I could be considered a Kobe fan. He's one of my three favorite players ever.

:biggums:

Yeah and you think he's poor mans MJ which is disrespectful he not as good as MJ obviously but he better in few areas than MJ.

[Jacks3]

It's not a myth. He was never as athletic as many of his peers like Carter/Iverson/Lebron/Wade/T-mac etc. He was a very good athlete, but not a transcendent one, which makes his level of play during his peak/prime truly astonishing. No, it's clear that his skill/b-ball IQ/work-ethic is what made him truly special.

[eliteballer]

The myth started when knee problems started to sap Kobe of his athleticism in his mid 20's.



It's not a myth. He was never as athletic as many of his peers like Carter/Iverson/Lebron/Wade/T-mac etc. He was a very good athlete, but not a transcendent one, which makes his level of play during his peak/prime truly astonishing. No, it's clear that his skill/b-ball IQ/work-ethic is what made him truly special.

pffft

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGJvbrB8RDw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-tXvMriU0Y
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvWy9liwC7U