If Bird's career corresponded with Lebron's

[Marchesk]

Say Bird comes into the league the same 21 year old Lebron's rookie season. How would he rank in today's game? Assume same length of career with eventual back issues, although better medicine might mitigate that somewhat.

[SamuraiSWISH]

I wonder how Bird would look growing up in a basketball enviornment of the Point Forward ... which didn't really exist when he was learning the game. Magic was kind of the prototype. Then Pippen, and Grant Hill modernized it.

[Kvnzhangyay]

I wonder how Bird would look growing up in a basketball enviornment of the Point Forward ... which didn't really exist when he was learning the game. Magic was kind of the prototype. Then Pippen, and Grant Hill modernized it.

This lol. Bird would be playing a totally different game. For better or worse, thats up to speculation

[3ball]

Bird would be playing a totally different game. For better or worse, thats up to speculation


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Larry_Bird_with_the_Modern_Ive_3b4802c1d99d689592f 8fdfa78244708.gif


If he grew up in today's game, his handle would be even better, although he'd be a worse playmaker and basketball player because he wouldn't need the skill it took to play with no spacing, since today's game HAS spacing.

The whole game would be slowed down for him with all this extra space - he'd see 5 plays ahead instead of just 2 or 3.

Bird had a guard handle and was a point-forward BACK THEN - this was just on his own - he didn't have a pippen or grant hill as an example of who to play like.
.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

I think he'd play mostly PF in today's game. Like a smaller more skilled Dirk.

[Micku]

Bird had a guard handle and was a point-forward BACK THEN - this was just on his own - he didn't have a pippen or grant hill as an example of who to play like.

If he grew up in today's game, his handle would be even better, although his play-making would be worse because he wouldn't the skill that it took to play with no spacing, because today's game HAS spacing.

I don't remember him having guard handles from the vids that I watched. He wasn't Magic, DJ, Ainge, or Isiah Thomas or anything like that. I don't think he had better handles or equal than Worthy or Dr. J either.

It was like you wouldn't feel comfortable to have Bird to dribble up the court like Pippen or Grant Hill, but you don't mind him dribbling in a half court set. He coould do it, cuz I seen some videos where the ball was pressured and Bird had to dribble the ball. Even the commentators were like "Oooh. The Celts would prefer not to have Bird dribble up the floor," but that was in the 86. I need to check out more of his moves back in the early 80s. Anyway, I think he was considered a point forward BACK THEN as you said.

[3ball]

Like a smaller more skilled Dirk.


:applause:

He'd score in more ways... and of course, average 3 times as many assists as Dirk.

Bird would play SF though, and some PF too, just like he did in the 80's... People don't realize how good his handle was - he had a GUARD handle - go look at the tape.

Also, in today's game, Bird would get more than his 6.5 career assist average, because passing is easier WITH spacing than without... infact, ALL things on the offensive end are easier with spacing, so his entire offensive game would be enhanced.

[SamuraiSWISH]

I think he'd play mostly PF in today's game. Like a smaller more skilled Dirk.
:applause:

Better defender, and rebounder too.

[Micku]

I think he'd play mostly PF in today's game. Like a smaller more skilled Dirk.
Yeah, he'll play more PF I think. A smaller, but more skilled version of Dirk as you said. He might be the ultimate stretch 4, but is very good at posting up. He said he think he'll play the 4 himself in one of his interviews. I think with Bill Simmons? Bird played the 4 a lot anyway back in the early 80s.

Anyway, he'll be top 2 or top 3 depending on the years. A 21 year old Bird would be interesting tho. He wouldn't have his broken finger, right?

Anyway, assuming if he would have the same stats (ignoring college), I think Bird wouldn't be considered on LBJ level until he was about 27. That's when Bird entered his prime. Then when he was 28-30 flip a coin I suppose. If we don't use the same stats, then it's anybody guess. Play 2k, lol.

But it also depends on how well their team is doing.

Regardless, Bird probably would've the best PF in the game for a while if he played it instead of SF.

[Prometheus]

Also, in today's game, Bird would get more than his 6.5 career assist average, because passing is easier WITH spacing than without... infact, ALL things on the offensive end are easier with spacing, so his entire offensive game would be enhanced.

... but you've said many times that it's a zero sum game. So which is it, really? If necessary, go ahead and pick whichever side fits your "80s/90s > ... " narrative at the moment. I won't mind.

[Prometheus]

Say Bird comes into the league the same 21 year old Lebron's rookie season. How would he rank in today's game? Assume same length of career with eventual back issues, although better medicine might mitigate that somewhat.

I'd like this hypothetical better if they were the same age. Either way, Bird would likely score more points in today's game because of a greater emphasis on spacing. He is, after all, one of the greatest outside shooters ever. I'd say he puts up the same numbers he did, plus an additional 2-3 points each year. It never would have been "LeBron's league", but it wouldn't have been Bird's either... they would probably be portrayed as rivals, and my gut tells me that Bird would generally get the better of the matchup and be regarded as the best player.

[SHAQisGOAT]

I wonder how Bird would look growing up in a basketball enviornment of the Point Forward ... which didn't really exist when he was learning the game. Magic was kind of the prototype. Then Pippen, and Grant Hill modernized it.

Yes, it definitely did exist...

-Paul Pressey was playing point-forward in the mid-to-late 80's, while being very good at it.

-Marques Johnson was playing point-forward in the early 80's.

-John Johnson was many times utilized as a point-forward and he started his career in the early 70's.

-Rick Barry at some point was doing plenty of playmaking from the perimeter.

-Hondo was also playing something like a point-forward, sometimes.

...

I remember Bird saying he didn't really "like" to play point-forward though, bringing the ball up and whatnot, playng more from the perimeter... He did it plenty (and the most in his career) in the early 90's though, when he was basically a complete shell also.

Pippen and Grant didn't modernize it, or anything you wanna call it like that...




This lol. Bird would be playing a totally different game. For better or worse, thats up to speculation

Don't believe he would. If he did, certainly wouldn't be because of the point-forward aspect and whatnot. Bird did plenty of playmaking and so on, plenty of great passes, without being a point-forward, without being the main ball-handler, without bringing the ball up-court...

You were agreeing with something basically wrong there, though.

[3ball]

... but you've said many times that it's a zero sum game. So which is it, really? If necessary, go ahead and pick whichever side fits your "80s/90s > ... " narrative at the moment. I won't mind.


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/229527af63224ebbeeffd5c49b6c4827.gif


With the spacing of today's game, the defenders shown above wouldn't be in such close proximity, so Bird wouldn't need to thread the needle and make AS great a play..

Instead, Bird could take his time and make a more predictable, less impressive pass... Faster pace & no spacing = quicker decisions & tougher passes.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Bird and MJ are mentally the toughest, most bad ass dudes to grace the sport.

[Prometheus]

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/229527af63224ebbeeffd5c49b6c4827.gif


With the spacing of today's game, the defenders shown above wouldn't be in such close proximity, so Bird wouldn't need to thread the needle and make AS great a play..

Instead, Bird could take his time and make a more predictable, less impressive pass... Faster pace & no spacing = quicker decisions & tougher passes.

Zero sum game. More spacing = wider range of options = more demanding on one's peripheral vision and awareness. More spacing = more cross-court passes and greater distance on drive-and-dish (think of Paxson's long twos in 1991... those would be threes today). Zero sum game.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Say Bird comes into the league the same 21 year old Lebron's rookie season. How would he rank in today's game? Assume same length of career with eventual back issues, although better medicine might mitigate that somewhat.

You would still see a top5 GOAT peak and an amazing career, that could've even lasted longer with today's medicine.

At his best he would be the best, no active player at his peak would be better and few would be close.

I reckon he would probably play more PF nowadays, as you got more small-ball going on, he was more of a terrific all-around stretch 4, and not many PF's out there like prime Kevin McHale to "force" Larry to play more as a SF...

Bird could shoot from everywhere lights out, had a very good postgame (that would easily be one of the very best in today's game), could do a lot of playmaking with terrific passes without being the main ball-handler, more than held his own on defense on the perimeter before back issues but was more suited to guard the post and pretty good at it, also he would probably be even better on D (already very good and underrated) with today's zone defenses, plus he was a great rebounder... So yea, I can see him playing more as a stretch 4 out there.

You'll see something like a mix between Dirk, Love, Diaw... As a 6'9 barefooted, 220+ lbs player with nice athletic ability (don't be fooled, a dude like Love can't even begin to **** with pre-injuries Larry as far as athleticism, prime Dirk also not there...). With unreal bball IQ, ice cold veins, while also a very good team defender...

[3ball]

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/a07d136d910fa49a532d3a24fb043e94.gif


See, Bird would not have to take shots like these in today's game nearly as often - with sufficient ball movement, today's spacing allows for a higher proportion of open shots, so shots like this are considered bad shots in today's game.

And all those crazy shots Jordan used to make that required so much in-air agility and skill would not be necessary in today's game, because the spacing has made ball movement more effective at getting open shots...

In addition, defensive 3 seconds clears the paint of defenders, which ALSO would preclude Jordan from needing to execute as many highlights (today, open dunks are considered great highlights.. :facepalm
.

[3ball]

Zero sum game. More spacing = wider range of options = more demanding on one's peripheral vision and awareness. More spacing = more cross-court passes and greater distance on drive-and-dish (think of Paxson's long twos in 1991... those would be threes today). Zero sum game.


The zero-sum game refers to how it remains equally hard to score over different eras... it had nothing to do with the QUALITY of basketball being played.

Also, the 3-point shots (that create the spacing) restricts the movement of offensive players by forcing them to camp behind the 3-point line, rather than move freely... Almost 30% of today's shot attempts are 3-pointers, which makes the game slower, and more predictable than ever.

That's why today's game looks like neatly-spaced rows of corn (as as Avery Johnson said on First Take (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVKvWyXbzKk&t=0m55s)) or a marching band, as opposed to the more random, free-flowing, and less predictable movements of previous eras.

I guess it depends what you prefer: the slower-paced passing of today's game made easier by spacing, or the faster-paced passes of previous eras that threaded the needle more often.... Skip passes are not impressive... They teach that in junior high - the skip pass is a simple, BORING drill..

[Thorpesaurous]

On the one hand you could make the case he would've been too mutated in terms of his personality to ever have made it. Remember Bird was so shy he was scampering home from Indiana at a time when most modern players are literally designing their own logos. And Bird needed the time to mature, and deal with things like his father committing suicide, that the current game just doesn't allow for.

But if you're looking past that element of it, and just him as a player, I do believe he's a better fit in the current league than he even was then. He would've played almost exclusively four, and you could convince me he'd play some super small lineup center (I mean the Morris twins do it). In a league so pick and roll happy, a guy who could read as well as he can would be a huge asset. He could pick and pop, but he'd also be one of those rare guys who could make plays in the mid roll. And he's a plus enough rebounder that that would translate pretty well. He's a career 10 rpg guy playing with multiple HoF front liners as it is in a league that was just generally much bigger, and didn't have the volume of misses the current three league has.

And the biggest thing would be addressing his big perceived weakness. His defense. First is that his defense isn't nearly as bad as it's made out to be. And his off ball D is actually bordering on superb. Given the zone tolerances, his ability to move those extra steps would probably make him even better. Not being able to put his hands on guys may put a bigger spotlight on a less than elite footspeed, but again he wasn't as bad as he's made out, and because of the size of the league now, he could easily be moved off of threatening ball handlers where his off ball play would be more valuable anyway. He would be in the mix with Lebron and Durant for the best player in the world on the regular, with the occasional explosion of other players around him, like Steph Curry this year.

You could maybe convince me the better athletes would be better on him defensively than what he typically saw, but most of those athletes don't see the level of shooting or passing or post game he'd bring, so his breakdown game is more built off of shot and pass fakes than pure blow by stuff. We saw that player bother Dirk some for a while, but Bird's post game is more efficient, and his passing and shot faking would lead to more balance issues for those guys, and Bird's a better ballhandler anyway, and that's based off of Dirk, who's already had problems with those players to the tune of a HoF career with a title and an MVP. And of course he'd need a coach who'd use him with some degree of creativity, and not ask him to stand in a corner like Ryan Anderson, as we're seeing with the way Kevin Love is being relegated to "spacer" this season.

[oarabbus]

I guess it depends what you prefer: the slower-paced passing of today's game made easier by spacing, or the faster-paced passes of previous eras that threaded the needle more often.... Skip passes are not impressive... They teach that in junior high - the skip pass is a simple, BORING drill..


:oldlol:

[JellyBean]

I wonder how Bird would look growing up in a basketball enviornment of the Point Forward ... which didn't really exist when he was learning the game. Magic was kind of the prototype. Then Pippen, and Grant Hill modernized it.


The Point Forward position was around when Bird was playing. I know John Johnson (Seattle Supersonics) was a point forward in the late 70s. Heck there probably was point forward in the League 60s. But Bird played during the era of point forwards. I think he even called himself a point forward at one point. Not sure if he was being serious or not.

[3ball]

:oldlol:
They teach the skip pass in junior high... What's so funny about that?

You guys act like spacing created all these new harder skills that needed to be learned in the game.

no dumbass, spacing made everything EASIER.

and actually, the ability of players in previous eras to camp in the lane made skip passes and moving the ball from side to side ineffective - players didn't have to move out of the paint when the ball was swung; they could remain stationary in the paint and just turn their head and body like a swivel chair.

otoh, when the ball is swung in today's game, players must vacate the paint and/or move from outside the lane on one side, to outside the lane on the other side... pretty big difference, but it's just as the league said they wanted - the defensive 3 seconds rule "makes passing and cutting easier", and "opens up the game".

[bizil]

In terms of point forwards, I think Barry and Hondo were the first superstar kind of guys to be that. Marques Johnson was the level right under those guys and a beast too. I think Bird was a point forward kind of player due to his passing ability. He had as good a passing vision as any player EVER! So he was ALWAYS his team's best passer.

But he didn't have the handles, speed, lateral quickness, and pace of a PG. I think Pippen and Hill were the first superstar level players who brought that to the point forward position. And those guys combined freakish Dr. J kind of athletic ability to that skillset at 6'8.

Those guys would ALSO play more like a normal PG in terms of bringing up the ball AFTER A MAKE OR MISS! They pushed the fastbreak way more often than the point forwards from the past. U could argue Hill or Pippen's secondary position could be as a PG. While Bird's secondary position would be PF. While Hondo's or Barry's would be SG. From there, Bron took what Pippen and Hill did to the ultimate level!

[3ball]

From there, Bron took what Pippen and Hill did to the ultimate level!


i think Bird > Lebron, but let's assume for a second that your post is true - if lebron is the "ultimate level" for a SF, then it's very revealing, because clearly the "ultimate level" for a SF < the "ultimate level" for a guard.

i think part of this is due to the quickness advantage guards have over SF's like Lebron - 25 PPG obtained in a lightning quick manner puts more consistent pressure on a defense than a SF's slower-paced 25 PPG...

recently, a poster pointed out that on a per-100 possessions basis, Westbrook's production this season equals Jordan's from 1989, except Westbrook plays 10 minutes less per game and shoots 11 percentage points worse (43% to 54%)... but nonetheless, compare the chaos Westbrook throws a defense into versus Lebron - now imagine Westbrook shoots 11 percentage points better, is 3 inches taller, and far more powerful and smart - that's Jordan... and the quickness advantage that a guard possesses, makes THEIR scoring more dynamic and devastating to a defense than a slower SF like Lebron.

also, a guard handling the ball doesn't mess up your rotations - everyone is in their normal place... but when a SF handles the ball the way a guard would, it takes ballhandling duties away from the ACTUAL guards - the point guard and shooting guard - and reduces them to something less, perhaps a floor-spreader or something.

[bizil]

i think Bird > Lebron, but let's assume for a second that your post is true - if lebron is the "ultimate level" for a SF, then it's very revealing, because clearly the "ultimate level" for a SF < the "ultimate level" for a guard.

i think part of this is due to the quickness advantage guards have over SF's like Lebron - 25 PPG obtained in a lightning quick manner puts more consistent pressure on a defense than a SF's slower-paced 25 PPG...

recently, a poster pointed out that on a per-100 possessions basis, Westbrook's production this season equals Jordan's from 1989, except Westbrook plays 10 minutes less per game and shoots 11 percentage points worse (43% to 54%)... but nonetheless, compare the chaos Westbrook throws a defense into versus Lebron - now imagine Westbrook shoots 11 percentage points better, is 3 inches taller, and far more powerful and smart - that's Jordan... and the quickness advantage that a guard possesses, makes THEIR scoring more dynamic and devastating to a defense than a slower SF like Lebron.

also, a guard handling the ball doesn't mess up your rotations - everyone is in their normal place... but when a SF handles the ball the way a guard would, it takes ballhandling duties away from the ACTUAL guards - the point guard and shooting guard - and reduces them to something less, perhaps a floor-spreader or something.

I'm talking about the Pippen-Hill model of point forward. Lebron is OF THAT CLOTH in terms of point forwards. Bird was a COMPLETELY different style of point forward. More of a halfcourt point forward AND NOT his team's primary ball handler. Bron, Pippen, and Hill were often at the top of the key in the halfcourt as well as bringing up the ball on makes or misses.

The thing was Bird was ALWAYS his team's best passer. It just so happened Bird was a SF-PF. Bron came into the league starting at point guard. Bird's style of point forward was like a bigger version of Rick Barry. The Bird-Barry model is DIFFERENT from the Bron-Pip-G Hill model of point forward.