Better Case For GOAT? Wilt Chamberlain or KAJ

[insidious301]

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/VS/Rivalry/02%20Stilt%20VS%20Alcindor/jabbarchamberlain.jpg


With 72 records (68 of which he holds by himself), Wilt dominates the NBA record book. And he's not just the top guy on the lists below. In several cases, he's No. 1, 2 and 3. It's hard to believe that there will ever be another player who can dominate as many statistical categories as the Big Dipper did.

On the other hand, Kareem has more accolades and honors, including more championships (went to the Finals 10x), MVPs and FMVPs. Not only that, he was the greatest scorer in history (as per totals).

As you can see, arguments can be made for others as being the "greatest" (which is obviously a very subjective title to bestow on anybody), but when you add up not only his mind-boggling and unsurpassed statistical accomplishments, and the finer points of creating a winning team, the importance of the center position inherent to the game of basketball, and the fact that he was one of the greatest closers to ever play the game with *the* most unstoppable shot in the history of basketball, in my humble opinion Kareem was greater than Wilt and has one of the strongest cases for GOAT.

BTW, here's an interesting little factoid I came across: Kareem, a career 56% shooter, only shot 48% against Chamberlain who shot 55% against Kareem, which was his career average.

[Mr Exlax]

Are you saying GOAT for all time based on career accolades or are you saying GOAT as in how dominant a player each one was?

I have either Wilt or Shaq as the GOAT. Career wise I dunno cause I never sit and look at it all.

[Marchesk]

Kareem has a case, but he also got to play with the two best PGs of all time. Without Oscar and Magic, Kareem's teams didn't make the finals.

[navy]

Kareem has the all around resume over chamberlain. Although, im not sure if you could say that Kareem ever matched Wilt's dominance.

[3ball]

It's Wilt easily imo.

Kareem is nice, but Wilt lost to better competition in his prime, than Kareem played in his prime (pre-lakers).

If I was drafting a team, i'd take Russell, Wilt, Jordan, Magic, Bird, Kareem, Shaq, Hakeem, Duncan.

Wilt had the best talent and skills of anyone ever and given the perfect circumstances could have had the best teams, won the most rings and been the best basketball player.. i don't think it's close - but given the way their careers actually went, Jordan became the better player and the greatest of all time.
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[insidious301]

Are you saying GOAT for all time based on career accolades or are you saying GOAT as in how dominant a player each one was?

I have either Wilt or Shaq as the GOAT. Career wise I dunno cause I never sit and look at it all.
I think GOAT encompasses everything. Careers, accolades, honors and dominance.

[3ball]

i guess what i'm saying is that every single person on the planet would be better if they got a do-over.

and in a world where we got do-overs, Wilt is the best of all time EASILY.

but given the world we live in where no one gets do-overs, jordan became the best player and the greatest of all time without any do-overs - he was the smartest when it mattered - in the moment.

lebron is trying to circumvent the natural process by manufacturing pseudo do-overs every few years, but not only will he will fall short in the end, and but his methodology will never garner the respect his fans wish for him.
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[insidious301]

i guess what i'm saying is that every single person on the planet would be better if they got a do-over.

and in a world where we got do-overs, Wilt is the best of all time EASILY.

but given the world we live in where no one gets do-overs, jordan became the best player and the greatest of all time without any do-overs - he was the smartest when it mattered - in the moment.

lebron is trying to circumvent the natural process by manufacturing pseudo do-overs every few years, but not only will he will fall short in the end, and but his methodology will never garner the respect his fans wish for him.
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Jordan was great, we all know that, but honestly? Putting a 2 guard ahead of the most dominant centers in history just doesn't add up. If these guys not being double-double machines wasn't enough, they were also more dominant in the way the approached and attacked defenses (better in the post for example). Jordan is Jordan, but his rings don't have more value than Wilt or Kareem, in my opinion, because of competition. Jordan in the 80's could not take out Bird, or Magic, or Detroit (until they faltered). His teams would play Boston, and they would get smoked every year, with Bird arguably outplaying him in their series H2H's.

I personally don't care much about volume scoring as I do about actual impact, and affecting the outcome of games besides scoring.

[3ball]

Jordan was great, we all know that, but honestly? Putting a 2 guard ahead of the most dominant centers in history just doesn't add up. If these guys not being double-double machines wasn't enough, they were more dominant in the way the approached and attacked defenses (better in the post for example). Jordan is Jordan, but his rings don't have more value than Wilt, Magic or Kareem, in my opinion because of competition. Jordan in the 80's could not take out bird , or Magic, or Detroit (until they faltered). His teams would play Boston, and they would get smoked. Bird arguably outplaying him in their series H2H's. I don't care much about volume scoring as I do about actual impact, and affecting the outcome of games besides scoring.
all those big men (Shaq, Kareem) needed dominant wing players to win their rings.

but jordan didn't need a dominant big man to win HIS rings - he only needed a 20 PPG wing player that was inferior to the wings those big men needed (Oscar, Kobe, Wade, or Magic).

people talk about how the bulls could have won championships with any decent 2-guard in Jordan's place, but in reality, the NON-troll question is how good does scottie's replacement need to be for jordan to still win?

we know that in 1998, that replacement could have averaged 15 PPG on 41% and jordan would still have won.

NORMALLY, for every wing player in history, a dominant big man is preferable... EXCEPT for Jordan... he was that good, and just a cut above every single wing player in history - (lebron needed wade who is > Pippen, AND Bosh).
.

[HomieWeMajor]

The Captain and it isn't even close.

[insidious301]

Not to deviate from my OP, but I always found this quote from Kareem interesting:


MJ was awesome—but I think Oscar Robertson would have kicked him in the behind. Absolutely. Oscar was awesome. He had brains. [...] He had all the skills.

He could rebound and box out guys four and six inches taller than him. He was ruggedly built. He had fluid, quickness and just understood the game. No flair, he just got the job done every night. Who’s going to average double figures in points, assists and rebounds?

Kareem may be biased, but Big O is one of the few perimeter players along with Jordan who impacted the game akin to a bigman. At 6'5, he could do pretty much everything and he deserves credit for how revolutionary he was for that period.

[insidious301]

all those big men (Shaq, Kareem) needed dominant wing players to win their rings.

but jordan didn't need a dominant big man to win HIS rings - he only needed a 20 PPG wing player that was inferior to the wings those big men needed (Oscar, Kobe, Wade, or Magic).

people talk about how the bulls could have won championships with any decent 2-guard in Jordan's place, but in reality, the NON-troll question is how good does scottie's replacement need to be for jordan to still win?

we know that in 1998, that replacement could have averaged 15 PPG on 41% and jordan would still have won.

NORMALLY, for every wing player in history, it is preferable to have an all-time dominant big man instead... EXCEPT for Jordan... he was that good, and just a cut above every single wing player in history.

Jordan needed the greatest rebounders, defense-men and coach of all time, so I don't think your point is valid. No offense.

[GimmeThat]

When working out, just focusing on certain muscle groups instead of your whole body most likely helps you burn body fat at a lower rate, with most likely a lower maximum strength point before plateauing.

[3ball]

Jordan needed the greatest rebounders, defense-men and coach of all time, so I don't think your point is valid. No offense.
so you'd rather have pippen over Shaq and Kareem's sidekicks of oscar, magic, wade, or kobe?... that's ludicrous.

also, grant was nowhere near the greatest rebounder, so i don't know what you're talking about - just some fantasy that you want to believe.

and rodman averaged 3 ppg, so the Bulls played 4 on 5 offensively at all times. but Jordan was so good offensively, those Bulls teams were STILL the greatest offensive teams in history (highest team offensive rating ever... while playing 4 on 5 offensively).

[mehyaM24]

Jordan needed the greatest rebounders, defense-men and coach of all time, so I don't think your point is valid. No offense.
exactly.

russell won more than anybody ever will again - that's just a fact. wilt literally changed the rules of the game because he dominated like nobody ever will again - that's just a fact. bird ousted jordan in h2h battles before pippen and phil took over and turned the franchise around. again, fact.

bottom line.. jordan is probably the best of his era, that's all, that's it. idk why he's this mystical god people created as infallible? :oldlol:

[3ball]

that's just a fact. bird ousted jordan in h2h battles before pippen


so you'd rather have pippen over Shaq and Kareem's sidekicks of oscar, magic, wade, or kobe?... that's ludicrous.

the fact that no one in their right mind would take MJ's sidekick (Pippen) over Shaq and Kareem's sidekicks (Oscar, Magic, Wade and Kobe) PROVES that Jordan was superior.

[insidious301]

so you'd rather have pippen over Shaq and Kareem's sidekicks of oscar, magic, wade, or kobe?... that's ludicrous.

Hmmm, where did I imply that?


also, grant was nowhere near the greatest rebounder, so i don't know what you're talking about - just some fantasy that you want to believe.

I think we all know I'm referring to Dennis Rodman and Scottie Pippen. That goes without saying (with no straw-man intended).

[3ball]

Hmmm, where did I imply that?


okay, clarify it for me then - who would you rather have as your teammate?

Scottie Pippen or Magic Johnson?... Scottie Pippen or 2006 Wade... Pippen or prime Kobe?

see?

this argument is over. Jordan's better than Kareem - Kareem got to play with Magic, whereas Jordan only played with Pippen, yet Jordan still did far better.

If Jordan and Magic were together, Bill Russel's record of 8 rings in a row would have been in jeopardy... oh wait... it already was in jeopardy, but Jordan's dad got murdered, so the record remained safe.
.

[mehyaM24]

so you'd rather have pippen over Shaq and Kareem's sidekicks of oscar, magic, wade, or kobe?... that's ludicrous.

the fact that no one in their right mind would take MJ's sidekick (Pippen) over Shaq and Kareem's sidekicks (Oscar, Magic, Wade and Kobe) PROVES that Jordan was superior.
i would rather have pippen than wade and kobe for certain years. for sure.

sidekicks dont take away from team strength and indivdual greatness - so this is irrelevant. wilt and kareem are arguably the most dominant players in history. lebron and magic are right there as well.

watching lebron climb up the PUBLIC all-time rankings is gonna be fun to watch :applause:

[the mesiah]

in b4 Laz copies and pastes, rapes this thread ..to answer the question ..
I'll take the Big Dipper.

[3ball]

i would rather have pippen than wade and kobe for certain years. for sure.


we're not talking about certain years - we're talking about Kareem and Shaq's sidekicks so that would be 2006 Wade - the very best Wade ever - and prime Kobe and prime Magic Johnson.

2006 Wade destroys Pippen... and obviously, Magic and prime Kobe destroy Pippen too.

If Jordan got to play with either Magic Johnson, 2006 Wade, or prime Kobe, Russell's record of 8 rings would be in jeopardy...

oh wait, it was ALREADY in jeopardy, but Jordan's dad got murdered, so the record remained safe...

make no mistake troll.. jordan's the GOAT, and probably will be for the entire time of your young life that you actually give a shit about basketball.

[mehyaM24]

we're not talking about certain years - we're talking about Kareem and Shaq's sidekicks so that would be 2006 Wade - the very best Wade ever - and prime Kobe and prime Magic Johnson.

kobe was also shaq's sidekick, so yes, actually, we are IN FACT talking about certain years. regardless of that fact, however, sidekicks don't make up for team strength and individual greatness. for example, in 1991, magic's regression adjusted RAPM was greater than jordan's (his peak). i don't think its a stretch to assume magic & larry were even more impactful and statsitically more dominant in years prior.

of course, this just proves my underlining point. individual greatness isn't interrupted by sidekick play. if you aren't watching the games, you gotta go by the hard-coded data that measures INDIVIDUAL impact.

:cheers:

[Marchesk]

Jordan in the 80's could not take out Bird, or Magic, or Detroit (until they faltered). His teams would play Boston, and they would get smoked every year, with Bird arguably outplaying him in their series H2H's.

Yeah but the Bulls weren't championship material in the 80s. Jordan got drafted to a crappy team and had to wait for the right pieces to be added and develop.

To be fair, you'd need to time travel the 90s Bulls to the 80s and see how they would fare. Bird and Magic had great teammates. Those Pistons teams were deep and talented. No way one player is going to beat great teams without good teammates around him.

Wilt couldn't do it, Oscar couldn't do it, neither could Jordan, Kobe, Shaq or Lebron. You gotta have a good team around you to win. I don't think we can hold that against Jordan since it applies to everyone. Maybe Hakeem and Rick Barry were the only ones to lead less than stellar teammates to championships, but they're not in the GOAT conversation.

[ArbitraryWater]

Kareem has the better case because of the hardware, although to be fair, if the FMVP were around at the time of his peak, I'm sure he would do his best to grab as many possible. Even if that meant stat-padding. :oldlol:


:biggums:

The FMVP was around during his peak and hell no he wouldn't (didn't) have done that.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Edited my post lol


:biggums:

The FMVP was around during his peak and hell no he wouldn't (didn't) have done that.


Kareem has the better case because of the hardware, although to be fair, if the FMVP were around the time of Wilt's peak, I'm sure he would have done his best to grab as many possible. Even if that meant stat-padding. :oldlol:

[Hands of Iron]

I think GOAT encompasses everything. Careers, accolades, honors and dominance.

... Skills, On Court Impact and Strength of Era.

[bizil]

I think it's Kareem! When u line up everything Kareem has done in his career, I think it gives him the edge on Wilt. Peak wise, Wilt is the best center of all time. GOAT wise, I gotta go with Cap!

[insidious301]

... Skills, On Court Impact and Strength of Era.

Absolutely. Every intangible that is possible, some not measurable, needs to be included for a consensus GOAT.

[insidious301]

I think it's Kareem! When u line up everything Kareem has done in his career, I think it gives him the edge on Wilt. Peak wise, Wilt is the best center of all time. GOAT wise, I gotta go with Cap!

Well said. For me, Kareem dominated the most competitive era in terms of parody (1970s). Great players were spread out between the NBA and ABA, but the 70s possessed some of the greatest teams in istory -- and Kareem was absolutely the most dominant player that era. In fact, the only players that were more dominant in their prime than Kareem was Wilt Chamberlain. If you were to add up his career in the 1970s, he averaged 32.0 ppg 16.4 rpg 3.5 bpg - insane numbers.

I don't agree with any player being "hands down" better than anyone. I'm actually a fan of the Doctor AND MJ, but I have to be objective. Oscar Robertson and Jerry West were both perimeter players who dominated the game statistically as Jordan did, especially Oscar Robertson, possibly the most complete player of all time.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Well said. For me, Kareem dominated the most competitive era in terms of parody (1970s). Great players were spread out between the NBA and ABA, but the 70s possessed some of the greatest teams in istory -- and Kareem was absolutely the most dominant player that era. In fact, the only players that were more dominant in their prime than Kareem was Wilt Chamberlain. If you were to add up his career in the 1970s, he averaged 32.0 ppg 16.4 rpg 3.5 bpg - insane numbers.

I don't agree with any player being "hands down" better than anyone. I'm actually a fan of the Doctor AND MJ, but I have to be objective. Oscar Robertson and Jerry West were both perimeter players who dominated the game statistically as Jordan did, especially Oscar Robertson, possibly the most complete player of all time.

That's fair. What is the difference you see in Oscar and LeBron, if any?

[3ball]

Oscar Robertson and Jerry West were both perimeter players who dominated the game statistically as Jordan did


so we're just looking at stats how?

oscar's best year statistically on a per 36 minutes basis is 24.9 PPG, 9.9 RPG, and 6.6 APG.

like, every season of jordan's career destroys this... destroys jerry west's best as well.

you guys are so biased.

[Psileas]

If someone doesn't put a lot of stock on ring count and total accolades, I don't see many reasons of why Kareem would rank ahead of Wilt. Kareem had the better single shot and was a better FT shooter, Wilt was a better rebounder, shot blocker, equally great passer and defender (some will argue he was better), had incredible stamina and drew fouls much easier.
Kareem is considered by most to be the better playoff performer, and yet, he didn't perform any better against Wilt's era's best defenders than Wilt did. He didn't perform better vs old Wilt than Wilt did vs Russell. He had some very impressive playoff runs later on, but not any better than Wilt's and his team results weren't any better than Wilt's until he got a stacked team. Older Kareem was a more stable scorer than older Wilt, but worse at about everything else.
Do people think that Wilt starting his career in the early 70's, without Russell's Celtics around, having veteran Oscar next to him and later on, at 32, he plays for the Lakers, with Magic, Worthy, Wilkes, Cooper, McAdoo, isn't going to win way more than he did in his era?

[insidious301]

That's fair. What is the difference you see in Oscar and LeBron, if any?

In my opinion, LeBron's game-play is more similar to Elgin Baylor than Oscar. Elgin was very strong, a highflyer, very fast, great scorer, rebounder, passer and defender -- attributes similar to LeBron. Meanwhile, Oscar was an even better playmaker, but his assists were arguably more impressive. If you remember (or researched), counting assists back then were more strict than today, so in this area Oscar is similar to Magic but also was better scorer than him -- both very versatile.

I think the biggest difference is in athleticism. LeBron's athleticism allows him to do things on the court we've never seen before.

[CavaliersFTW]

Wilt is the most dominating presence in the history of the sport. On remarkable untouchable levels. The next best isn't even close in many of the things Wilt accomplished. Period. If that's what makes a player the "GOAT" in someone's subjective opinion, than Wilt is at the top and the next best isn't even close. Not Shaq, not Kareem, nobody. Nobody dominated the game like Wilt Chamberlain.

Greatest winner in the history of the sport is Bill Russell. If that's what makes a player "GOAT" than Russell is your man no way around it.

Anyone else the way I see it is a GOAT only on a personal level for pretty much arbitrary reasonings "Well I think it's MJ/Kareem/Magic/Lebron cause he won his or played the game in a this or that fashion". All totally arbitrary stuff that serves to dance around the elephant in the room... the obvious dominance of Wilt and the obvious winning of Russell.

Now, I will say a couple of guys have really really ****ing good resume's and eye popping game. Namely MJ and Kareem.

But dominance? No one is even remotely close to Wilt Chamberlain. And winning? No one is even remotely close to Bill Russell. Whatever your flavor of the day is, winning team battles or winning individual battles it's one of those two guys. They're my top 2.

MJ and Kareem HM cause they have a decent enough blend of individual and team success so as to sort of fit in between the Bill Russell and Wilt Chamberlain ends of the spectrum.

[CavaliersFTW]

so we're just looking at stats how?

oscar's best year statistically on a per 36 minutes basis is 24.9 PPG, 9.9 RPG, and 6.6 APG.

like, every season of jordan's career destroys this... destroys jerry west's best as well.

you guys are so biased.
Can't penalize guys who were able to stay on the floor longer IMO.

That's a plus on them if anything. Superior stamina is superior stamina. Guys like Jackson and Pop are just like the old school coaches, they let their players play as many minutes as the players are capable of playing. Pop just said not more than 2 weeks ago that Kawhi has NO limits on his minutes on the floor and that his minutes would be entirely dependent on how long he could play.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

In my opinion, LeBron's game-play is more similar to Elgin Baylor than Oscar. Elgin was very strong, a highflyer, very fast, great scorer, rebounder, passer and defender -- attributes similar to LeBron. Meanwhile, Oscar was an even better playmaker, but his assists were arguably more impressive. If you remember (or researched), counting assists back then were more strict than today, so in this area Oscar is similar to Magic but also was better scorer than him -- both very versatile.

I think the biggest difference is in athleticism. LeBron's athleticism allows him to do things on the court we've never seen before.
Thanks :cheers:

Bron might be the most athletically gifted basketball player ever. Not gonna speak in absolutes, but I'm not sure a player has EVER had that combo of size and speed.

[3ball]

Can't penalize guys who were able to stay on the floor longer IMO.

That's a plus on them if anything. Superior stamina is superior stamina. Guys like Jackson and Pop are just like the old school coaches, they let their players play as many minutes as the players are capable of playing. Pop just said not more than 2 weeks ago that Kawhi has NO limits on his minutes on the floor and that his minutes would be entirely dependent on how long he could play.
fine, but just look at their careers - oscar had a couple years that can match MJ's, but that's it.

[CavaliersFTW]

Thanks :cheers:

Bron might be the most athletically gifted basketball player ever. Not gonna speak in absolutes, but I'm not sure a player has EVER had that combo of size and speed.
Wilt Chamberlain was bigger. And just as fast.

Wilt at KU, ~240lbs
4.4 hand timed 40.

Lebron in HS, ~240lbs
4.4 hand timed 40.

Wilt at age 28, ~290lbs
4.6 hand timed 40 (by Hank Stram of KS Chiefs) and he ran it without wearing shoes

Lebron at age 28, ~263lbs (cited that same offseason)
4.6 hand timed 40

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Wilt Chamberlain was bigger. And just as fast.

Wilt at KU, ~240lbs
4.4 hand timed 40.

Lebron in HS, ~240lbs
4.4 hand timed 40.

Wilt at age 28, ~290lbs
4.6 hand timed 40 (by Hank Stram of KS Chiefs) and he ran it without wearing shoes

Lebron at age 28, ~263lbs (cited that same offseason)
4.6 hand timed 40

Nice info. I actually think LeBron could play in most sports relevant in the States, though. Not sure if Wilt had THAT type of athleticism or dexterity and balance. For example, I couldn't see dude playing football and actually being elite at it (wasn't LeBron a high school football star?)

[CavaliersFTW]

Nice info. I actually think LeBron could play in most sports relevant in the States, though. Not sure if Wilt had THAT type of athleticism (for example, I couldn't see dude playing football) or dexterity and balance.
Well, actually Kansas City Chiefs HOF coach Hank Stram was convinced Wilt could be a GOAT tier football player. He was scouting Wilt and was totally amazed at Wilt's abilities. That's how I got his 4.6 40 time:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-tDn7lBlbaC8/T1BIb5WnVRI/AAAAAAAADIM/n46efDf56To/s800/Wilt%2520Chamberlain%2520football.jpg (https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-tDn7lBlbaC8/T1BIb5WnVRI/AAAAAAAADIM/n46efDf56To/s0/Wilt%2520Chamberlain%2520football.jpg)

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-yZMMMZQaPAY/Ug0KaC98oiI/AAAAAAAAEjU/Q9Yo5zcGDpw/s640/Sequence%252001.Still003.jpg

[3ball]

Thanks :cheers:

Bron might be the most athletically gifted basketball player ever. Not gonna speak in absolutes, but I'm not sure a player has EVER had that combo of size and speed.
lebron's game is way more like oscar's than elgin's.

oscar and lebron use a lot of existing, live dribbles and dominated the ball like point guards do.

otoh, elgin didn't use as many live dribbles, and instead operated from the triple threat a ton more.

it's a big style difference.

also, lebron doesn't have near the scoring skill or moves of elgin baylor - charles barkley would never say kyrie is better offensively than elgin.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Well, actually Kansas City Chiefs HOF coach Hank Stram was convinced Wilt could be a GOAT tier football player. He was scouting Wilt and was totally amazed at Wilt's abilities. That's how I got his 4.6 40 time:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-tDn7lBlbaC8/T1BIb5WnVRI/AAAAAAAADIM/n46efDf56To/s800/Wilt%2520Chamberlain%2520football.jpg (https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-tDn7lBlbaC8/T1BIb5WnVRI/AAAAAAAADIM/n46efDf56To/s0/Wilt%2520Chamberlain%2520football.jpg)

Wow that's pretty impressive. Still, I'm going with my gut here.

To me Bo Jackson, Deion Sanders and LeBron are on that elite tier. Perfect combo of height, weight and strength to participate in multiple sports.

[CavaliersFTW]

Wow that's pretty impressive. Still, I'm going with my gut here.

To me Bo Jackson, Deion Sanders and LeBron are on that elite tier. Perfect combo of height, weight and strength to participate in multiple sports.
Could Lebron be a high jumper? A triple jumper?

The only reason you don't think Wilt is on the tier of Bo Jackson is because Bill Simmons hates Wilt Chamberlain so much that he squelched any opportunity for his 30 for 30 series to highlight Wilt the way he - as an athlete - should have been highlighted. The things Wilt could do as an athlete are nothing short of incredible.

You've seen my scouting tool video right? If not, the first 18 minutes of it highlight his athleticism and physical tools. That's a must-watch. It's what should have been showcased in a 30 for 30 bo-style documentary.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_B7jVTJ_CIE

Wilt in a nutshell is a Shaq sized Bo Jackson.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Could Lebron be a high jumper? A triple jumper?

The only reason you don't think Wilt is on the tier of Bo Jackson is because Bill Simmons hates Wilt Chamberlain so much that he squelched any opportunity for his 30 for 30 series to highlight Wilt the way he - as an athlete - should have been highlighted. The things Wilt could do as an athlete are nothing short of incredible.

Not as relevant as Football and Baseball in the States.

And, I don't pay much attention to Bill Simmons so there's that.


You've seen my scouting tool video right? If not, the first 18 minutes of it highlight his athleticism and physical tools. That's a must-watch. It's what should have been showcased in a 30 for 30 bo-style documentary.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_B7jVTJ_CIE

Wilt in a nutshell is a Shaq sized Bo Jackson.

I just wonder how long he would last? Big guys with quick movements can be terrible on the legs.

[CavaliersFTW]

Not as relevant as Football and Baseball in the States.

And, I don't pay much attention to Bill Simmons so there's that.



I just wonder how long he would last? Big guys with quick movements can be terrible on the legs.
I'm not saying you pay attention to Bill Simmons I'm just crediting him where it is due as far as his influence goes (whether people realize he is behind the scenes or not) with the Bo Jackson 30 for 30 documentary - because he's the man in charge of 30 for 30 if you didn't know that. His grantland and 30 for 30's are breathing new life into super athletes of the past, such as Bo.

He however, hates Wilt, and deliberately avoids giving Wilt his due. A "You don't know Bo" style 30 for 30 SHOULD have been made about Wilt, but it wasn't. Because of Simmons. So you may not care about him, but he's why Wilt and Wilt's athleticism isn't widely talked about by guys in their 20's, like Bo is due to that hugely popular Bo documentary. You may have known about Bo well before that documentary, but most people in their 20's at least only know of him from that doc.

[DatAsh]

I go back and forth on these two all the time.

Wilt's career is full of what ifs, but just limiting it to what actually happened.

Wilt:
+ better low post scorer
+ better scorer overall
+ much better rebounder
+ much better defender
+ better passer
- inconsistent play-style makes it harder to build around
- tendency to put individual goals over team goals
- longevity

Kareem
+ longevity
+ consistency in approach
+ more focused on winning
+ slightly more range
- scoring
- rebounding
- passing
- defense(liability towards the end of his career)

From what I've read, both of these guys kinda share the same main weakness. They weren't the great leaders that guys like Magic, Russell, and Jordan were and couldn't really elevate the team/culture outside of their own individual play.

Wilt's freethrow shooting was worse, but he also got so many teams into foul trouble.

I always flip flop with these guys, but given that neither can really tote leadership over the other, it's hard to ignore that Wilt was better at nearly every major facet of the game(scoring, rebounding, defending, passing). Does the consistency and 6 extra years of Kareem make up for that? Some might say yes, but right now I'm leaning more towards no.

In terms of all around individual play, Wilt is the best ever. Jordan comes pretty close, but Wilt is at the top of the mountain.

[deja vu]

Yeah but the Bulls weren't championship material in the 80s. Jordan got drafted to a crappy team and had to wait for the right pieces to be added and develop.

To be fair, you'd need to time travel the 90s Bulls to the 80s and see how they would fare. Bird and Magic had great teammates. Those Pistons teams were deep and talented. No way one player is going to beat great teams without good teammates around him.

Wilt couldn't do it, Oscar couldn't do it, neither could Jordan, Kobe, Shaq or Lebron. You gotta have a good team around you to win. I don't think we can hold that against Jordan since it applies to everyone. Maybe Hakeem and Rick Barry were the only ones to lead less than stellar teammates to championships, but they're not in the GOAT conversation.
Great post. I think the 90s Bulls would also win titles in the 80s.

Anyway on the topic, I think Kareem had the better career and Wilt had the better prime. In a prime vs prime matchup, Wilt destroys Kareem. Washed up Wilt held his own against young Kareem.

[insidious301]

I go back and forth on these two all the time.

Wilt's career is full of what ifs, but just limiting it to what actually happened.

Wilt:
+ better low post scorer
+ better scorer overall
+ much better rebounder
+ much better defender
+ better passer
- inconsistent play-style makes it harder to build around
- tendency to put individual goals over team goals
- longevity

Kareem
+ longevity
+ consistency in approach
+ more focused on winning
+ slightly more range
- scoring
- rebounding
- passing
- defense(liability towards the end of his career)

From what I've read, both of these guys kinda share the same main weakness. They weren't the great leaders that guys like Magic, Russell, and Jordan were and couldn't really elevate the team/culture outside of their own individual play.

Wilt's freethrow shooting was worse, but he also got so many teams into foul trouble.

I always flip flop with these guys, but given that neither can really tote leadership over the other, it's hard to ignore that Wilt was better at nearly every major facet of the game(scoring, rebounding, defending, passing). Does the consistency and 6 extra years of Kareem make up for that? Some might say yes, but right now I'm leaning more towards no.

In terms of all around individual play, Wilt is the best ever. Jordan comes pretty close, but Wilt is at the top of the mountain.

I rank Russell, Wilt and Kareem ahead of Jordan who I place with the likes of Magic, Shaq and LeBron (my second tier).

In my opinion, the big 3 changed basketball, impacting games like nobody ever has and probably never will (part of that is because of rule changes).

Like I said, though, to me, Kareem has the greatest case. Whether you are considering only college, only pro, or as a combination of all levels. People that play the game understand that dominating the paint area is a critical aspect of basketball. Kareem did this both offensively and defensively. The importance of this cannot be overstated.

Perhaps equally important was the fact that he was a team player who made his entire team better not only by dominating the paint, but also by his ability to pass and draw double coverage on the block, which opened up space on the floor for others to score.

I mean, it's not a coincidence then that his arrival on two lousy teams (the Bucks and Lakers) made them immediately competitive and eventual championship contenders. In addition, another vital but often overlooked fact is that Kareem was one of the great finishers of the game. He was an incredibly clutch player whose unstoppable skyhook (56% career FG pct!) was just as good at the end of games as it was at the beginning, and when he got fouled he was a reliable free throw shooter so he was always the go-to guy, even in the twilight of his career on the Showtime Lakers, in the clutch.

[24-Inch_Chrome]

Wow that's pretty impressive. Still, I'm going with my gut here.

To me Bo Jackson, Deion Sanders and LeBron are on that elite tier. Perfect combo of height, weight and strength to participate in multiple sports.

Bo on the same tier as Deion and LeBron? All were great athletes but Bo was inhuman, I've never seen anyone like him.

[julizaver]

BTW, here's an interesting little factoid I came across: Kareem, a career 56% shooter, only shot 48% against Chamberlain who shot 55% against Kareem, which was his career average.

Here is their H2H overall statsline:
28 games

Chamberlain 44.96 min, 16.1 ppg, 18.2 rpg, 3.4 apg, 52.6 FG %, 48.6 FT %

Jabbar 43.14 min, 31.0 ppg, 16.4 rpg, 3.9 apg, 46.4 FG %, 71.6 FT %

From available data Wilt with more shots blocked - for complete game by game data/stats you can check this thread:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=170340

[dunksby]

Here is their H2H overall statsline:
28 games

Chamberlain 44.96 min, 16.1 ppg, 18.2 rpg, 3.4 apg, 52.6 FG %, 48.6 FT %

Jabbar 43.14 min, 31.0 ppg, 16.4 rpg, 3.9 apg, 46.4 FG %, 71.6 FT %

From available data Wilt with more shots blocked - for complete game by game data/stats you can check this thread:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=170340
And they are not too far off in RPG either, but when it comes to hardware you know who's the GOAT.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

KAJ easily. Wilt won 2 rings in a 15 team (average) league in like 15 seasons. That's about what the average player would win that span.

[ArbitraryWater]

I go back and forth on these two all the time.

Wilt's career is full of what ifs, but just limiting it to what actually happened.

Wilt:
+ better low post scorer
+ better scorer overall
+ much better rebounder
+ much better defender
+ better passer
- inconsistent play-style makes it harder to build around
- tendency to put individual goals over team goals
- longevity

Kareem
+ longevity
+ consistency in approach
+ more focused on winning
+ slightly more range
- scoring
- rebounding
- passing
- defense(liability towards the end of his career)

Weird breakdown... why not just list the things they were good at or better, then spare yourselfg the "-" for Kareem, since he actually wasn't a bad scorer, rebounder or defender?!

[DatAsh]

Weird breakdown... why not just list the things they were good at or better, then spare yourselfg the "-" for Kareem, since he actually wasn't a bad scorer, rebounder or defender?!
Could do that. Its the same thing, my brain just doesn't like seeing pros without cons.

[gts]

I think GOAT encompasses everything. Careers, accolades, honors and dominance.

of course it does.. that's the only way to do it

I have Kareem as the best to ever play the game

[Height Freak]

Wilt

[Elosha]

Here is their H2H overall statsline:
28 games

Chamberlain 44.96 min, 16.1 ppg, 18.2 rpg, 3.4 apg, 52.6 FG %, 48.6 FT %

Jabbar 43.14 min, 31.0 ppg, 16.4 rpg, 3.9 apg, 46.4 FG %, 71.6 FT %

From available data Wilt with more shots blocked - for complete game by game data/stats you can check this thread:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=170340

Didn't realize Kareem outscored Wilt so decisively. Does that include playoffs? Say what you will about Wilt not being in his prime, but when Kareem outscores him almost two to one, there's no way anyone cannot say that Kareem did not get the better of their individual match ups, even though Wilt did hold him to a lower fg percentage.

[G0ATbe]

Neither, though Kareem is definitely 2nd.

[DaRkJaWs]

Didn't realize Kareem outscored Wilt so decisively. Does that include playoffs? Say what you will about Wilt not being in his prime, but when Kareem outscores him almost two to one, there's no way anyone cannot say that Kareem did not get the better of their individual match ups, even though Wilt did hold him to a lower fg percentage.
To be fair to wilt, Kareem really widened that gap in 1972 and 1973, in wilts 13th and 14th season when he was 35-36 yrs old. Plus in wilts last season wilt purposely did not try to score on Kareem because he wanted to keep his 73 fg pcgt. For example in the last game of the 73 season wilt did not attempt one fg.

[DaRkJaWs]

KAJ easily. Wilt won 2 rings in a 15 team (average) league in like 15 seasons. That's about what the average player would win that span.
14 seasons, and wilt was out for most of one of those seasons.

[Roundball_Rock]

The two best cases for GOAT are Wilt and Russell's, for reasons mentioned earlier in the thread. The case for them is simple. Individual dominance that has never been achieved before or since by Wilt (and this was with the league changing the rules to limit him--not to aid him like it did with MJ or 21st century superstars) and unrivaled winning by Russell. KAJ and MJ also have strong cases but both require a bit of fudging to make their case since neither was #1 in the two main categories of individual dominance and winning, although KAJ is the GOAT in longevity if that is a big part of one's criteria.

I personally have Wilt as the BOAT and KAJ as the GOAT.

Regarding comparing Wilt and KAJ, Wilt has the edge over KAJ as an individual player, although KAJ had the better career (especially if you count college).

[kshutts1]

i guess what i'm saying is that every single person on the planet would be better if they got a do-over.

and in a world where we got do-overs, Wilt is the best of all time EASILY.

but given the world we live in where no one gets do-overs, jordan became the best player and the greatest of all time without any do-overs - he was the smartest when it mattered - in the moment.

lebron is trying to circumvent the natural process by manufacturing pseudo do-overs every few years, but not only will he will fall short in the end, and but his methodology will never garner the respect his fans wish for him.
.
Aside from the fact that I disagree about Jordan (I don't have any one player being the best ever) this is one of the best posts I've read from you.

Still mention Jordan in a non-Jordan thread, but logical and thought out. I like it.

That said, the bolded statement about Wilt is typically how I try to do rankings. I try to not hold a player's situation against or for them. Obviously it's totally impossible, and entirely subjective, but I do try to consider that.

[ArbitraryWater]

Aside from the fact that I disagree about Jordan (I don't have any one player being the best ever) this is one of the best posts I've read from you.

Still mention Jordan in a non-Jordan thread, but logical and thought out. I like it.

That said, the bolded statement about Wilt is typically how I try to do rankings. I try to not hold a player's situation against or for them. Obviously it's totally impossible, and entirely subjective, but I do try to consider that.

True.. I think ability wise Wilt is far and away the GOAT, but his rather poor outings in 1968 and 1969 have more to do with himself than circumstances IMO, which is why I can't put him above MJ/Kareem.

[GimmeThat]

where we are going, who we want to get there with.

what we've done to be where we are today.



#GOAT

[La Frescobaldi]

Bo on the same tier as Deion and LeBron? All were great athletes but Bo was inhuman, I've never seen anyone like him.

See that's Chamberlain to me. I don't know that he was the strongest man I ever saw but he did the strongest things I've ever seen outside of straight weight lifting you know, like Alexeev clean and jerk or whatever.

Strong? That dude picked up two guys that were fighting on the floor..... one in each hand..... and set them up on their feet...... at arm's length from each other. Rag doll? :lol Fight stopped right there, crowd just went silent as a pin drop... everybody just shaking their head awestruck.

There's a clip of Shaq catching AI in the air and setting him down..... but Chamberlain did that to Bob Lanier.:eek:

he would shrug his shoulder going up for a rebound and a guy would literally fly off the floor.... there's a youtube clip of him doing it to NATE THURMOND (one big dude) clear off into the bleachers..... but he did it to anybody that was stupid enough to body him up on a rebound. Boerwinkel just bounced off him like nothin.

sprint? as a Sixer he would get a rebound under the hoop, throw the outlet to the elbow....... and beat the guards down the floor for the alley oop.

he and Dave DeBusschere came down with the ball on a rebound one time..... Chamberlain cocked his arm back to throw a baseball pass outlet... and Big Dave was still holding that ball, feet off the ground eyes just shocked and did he drop that ball you bet he did.
The most amazing feat of strength I ever saw in my life was mid 70s out on Huntington Beach in Cali. He threw a big ol' dude about fifteen feet across the beach into the surf. Picked him up shoulder and leg and flung him just like you would a sack of potatoes into the bin.

weight lifting is one thing but its not the only indicator of strong.
I worked some on cattle ranches summers in college, long years ago now.... saw some bull strong guys.... if you ever want to learn who is strong just pull a poddy calf that has lost its will out of a mudwash sometime .... try that one time..... or get a mast up and lashed down in a downpour gale when your craft has all ropes keening.... try that sometime if you want to feel alive all over:lol ...... but the most amazing stuff out of all the people I ever saw was Chamberlain, live or on tv

[ArbitraryWater]

Wilt is the most dominating presence in the history of the sport. On remarkable untouchable levels. The next best isn't even close in many of the things Wilt accomplished. Period. If that's what makes a player the "GOAT" in someone's subjective opinion, than Wilt is at the top and the next best isn't even close. Not Shaq, not Kareem, nobody. Nobody dominated the game like Wilt Chamberlain.

Greatest winner in the history of the sport is Bill Russell. If that's what makes a player "GOAT" than Russell is your man no way around it.

Anyone else the way I see it is a GOAT only on a personal level for pretty much arbitrary reasonings "Well I think it's MJ/Kareem/Magic/Lebron cause he won his or played the game in a this or that fashion". All totally arbitrary stuff that serves to dance around the elephant in the room... the obvious dominance of Wilt and the obvious winning of Russell.

Now, I will say a couple of guys have really really ****ing good resume's and eye popping game. Namely MJ and Kareem.

But dominance? No one is even remotely close to Wilt Chamberlain. And winning? No one is even remotely close to Bill Russell. Whatever your flavor of the day is, winning team battles or winning individual battles it's one of those two guys. They're my top 2.

MJ and Kareem HM cause they have a decent enough blend of individual and team success so as to sort of fit in between the Bill Russell and Wilt Chamberlain ends of the spectrum.

How about you take both, and suddenly realize MJ and Kareem are the top 2?

[insidious301]

How about you take both, and suddenly realize MJ and Kareem are the top 2?

Good point. Where do you rate Jordan, Kareem, Wilt and Russell?

[ArbitraryWater]

Good point. Where do you rate Jordan, Kareem, Wilt and Russell?

Well, I don't rank Russell as high as others... I want my GOAT level player to be one who can do multiple things at an elite level, at least for his position (MJ defense). I can't overlook Bill's scoring innability. 44% in an era where he scored mainly on putbacks and the easy shots? I mean, it's not like those are D.J percentages... logically, an increase in FGA would drop his %'s further.

MJ/Kareem are my top 2, the highest tier.

Wilt, like Shaq, can be argued right afterwards IMO... Shocking thing is, as good as Shaq was, if he wouldn't have turned in fat into training camp and rehabbed his injuries in the regular season, he'd have been an even more dominating force, with 1-2 more MVP's and a longer prime, which already lasted a good 13 years. He could be a GOAT candidate like MJ, Kareem.... And Wilt? Too good to be true, really... Ability wise he's the runaway GOAT... still an interesting case, not sure how much to blame him for just 2 rings, but he definitely disappointed/underperformed in 1968, 1969.

[DatAsh]

I rank Russell, Wilt and Kareem ahead of Jordan who I place with the likes of Magic, Shaq and LeBron (my second tier).

In my opinion, the big 3 changed basketball, impacting games like nobody ever has and probably never will (part of that is because of rule changes).

Like I said, though, to me, Kareem has the greatest case. Whether you are considering only college, only pro, or as a combination of all levels. People that play the game understand that dominating the paint area is a critical aspect of basketball. Kareem did this both offensively and defensively. The importance of this cannot be overstated.

Perhaps equally important was the fact that he was a team player who made his entire team better not only by dominating the paint, but also by his ability to pass and draw double coverage on the block, which opened up space on the floor for others to score.

I mean, it's not a coincidence then that his arrival on two lousy teams (the Bucks and Lakers) made them immediately competitive and eventual championship contenders. In addition, another vital but often overlooked fact is that Kareem was one of the great finishers of the game. He was an incredibly clutch player whose unstoppable skyhook (56% career FG pct!) was just as good at the end of games as it was at the beginning, and when he got fouled he was a reliable free throw shooter so he was always the go-to guy, even in the twilight of his career on the Showtime Lakers, in the clutch.

I feel like you're overrating Kareem defensively if you're comparing him to Wilt. He was a great defender early in his career, good defender up until 1980 or so, but then he quickly declined in the 80s. He was below average for a while, which for a center is a big deal. I guess I'd still rate him over Lebron, Larry, and Magic defensively, but he's definitely behind Jordan for me, and Jordan isn't close to Wilt.

I agree with much of the other stuff you wrote. Kareem was a better team player, but I also feel that's more circumstance than it is personality. Neither guy was an all time great leader. And Wilt was a better passer.

[La Frescobaldi]

I feel like you're overrating Kareem defensively if you're comparing him to Wilt. He was a great defender early in his career, good defender up until 1980 or so, but then he quickly declined in the 80s. He was below average for a while, which for a center is a big deal. I guess I'd still rate him over Lebron, Larry, and Magic defensively, but he's definitely behind Jordan for me, and Jordan isn't close to Wilt.

I agree with much of the other stuff you wrote. Kareem was a better team player, but I also feel that's more circumstance than it is personality. Neither guy was an all time great leader. And Wilt was a better passer.

DatAsh doin' work

[insidious301]

Well, I don't rank Russell as high as others... I want my GOAT level player to be one who can do multiple things at an elite level, at least for his position (MJ defense). I can't overlook Bill's scoring innability. 44% in an era where he scored mainly on putbacks and the easy shots? I mean, it's not like those are D.J percentages... logically, an increase in FGA would drop his %'s further.

MJ/Kareem are my top 2, the highest tier.

Wilt, like Shaq, can be argued right afterwards IMO... Shocking thing is, as good as Shaq was, if he wouldn't have turned in fat into training camp and rehabbed his injuries in the regular season, he'd have been an even more dominating force, with 1-2 more MVP's and a longer prime, which already lasted a good 13 years. He could be a GOAT candidate like MJ, Kareem.... And Wilt? Too good to be true, really... Ability wise he's the runaway GOAT... still an interesting case, not sure how much to blame him for just 2 rings, but he definitely disappointed/underperformed in 1968, 1969.

Shaq was the complete package. He had a post game, was a 7 footer and was athletic. I can't imagine it to be likely that we'll see another player with a combination of his physically dominant combination of power and finesse, his talented post game and his awesome personality. But if we're speaking strictly on the first trait, Lebron is closest to him in that regard -- a modern version, who is basically a small forward version of Shaq. His peak will stand the test of time, up there with all the GOAT candidates.

Nice post, by the way.


I feel like you're overrating Kareem defensively if you're comparing him to Wilt. He was a great defender early in his career, good defender up until 1980 or so, but then he quickly declined in the 80s. He was below average for a while, which for a center is a big deal. I guess I'd still rate him over Lebron, Larry, and Magic defensively, but he's definitely behind Jordan for me, and Jordan isn't close to Wilt.

I agree with much of the other stuff you wrote. Kareem was a better team player, but I also feel that's more circumstance than it is personality. Neither guy was an all time great leader. And Wilt was a better passer.

Thanks for the comment. I probably am overrating his defense a bit...although some of that stems from talk about Wilt becoming soft when he had fouls against him so that he wouldn't foul out -- that's a big gripe I have with Wilt.

I also agree with you about their leadership skills. We'll leave those intangibles to Magic and Russell.

[navy]

The two best cases for GOAT are Wilt and Russell's, for reasons mentioned earlier in the thread. The case for them is simple. Individual dominance that has never been achieved before or since by Wilt (and this was with the league changing the rules to limit him--not to aid him like it did with MJ or 21st century superstars) and unrivaled winning by Russell. KAJ and MJ also have strong cases but both require a bit of fudging to make their case since neither was #1 in the two main categories of individual dominance and winning, although KAJ is the GOAT in longevity if that is a big part of one's criteria.

I personally have Wilt as the BOAT and KAJ as the GOAT.

Regarding comparing Wilt and KAJ, Wilt has the edge over KAJ as an individual player, although KAJ had the better career (especially if you count college).
You dont think it's a coincidence they are both 60s players?

[julizaver]

Didn't realize Kareem outscored Wilt so decisively. Does that include playoffs? Say what you will about Wilt not being in his prime, but when Kareem outscores him almost two to one, there's no way anyone cannot say that Kareem did not get the better of their individual match ups, even though Wilt did hold him to a lower fg percentage.

Didn't you see the link I posted ? If you have do a simple click you could save some precious time instead of writing empty questions.

It is good before making such strong conclusion to research or just read a little bit.
Wilt changed his style of play after 1966 (after winning 7 consecutive scoring titles in his first 7 seasons) to become more of all around team player.
After '71 season he changed his game again as he complitely gave up scoring in order to concetrate more on defense.
In his first 11 meetings prior to '72 season an old Wilt and Kareem had similar scoring stats in their head-to heads.
I am the one that would say that sometimes an old Wilt got the better of prime Jabbar. Their H2H were not so one-sided as just their scoring averages suggests.

[dunksby]

Didn't you see the link I posted ? If you have do a simple click you could some precious time instead of writing empty questions.

It is good before making such strong conclusion to research or just read a little bit.
Wilt changed his style of play after 1966 (after winning 7 consecutive scoring titles in his first 7 seasons) to become more of all around team player.
After '71 season he changed his game again as he complitely gave up scoring in order to concetrate more on defense.
In his first 11 meetings prior to '72 season an old Wilt and Kareem had similar scoring stats in their head-to heads.
I am the one that would say that sometimes an old Wilt got the better of prime Jabbar. Their H2H were not so one-sided as just their scoring averages suggests.
I don't see how that diminishes what Kareem did? Wilt was an elite defender even before he decided to save energy on offense and focus on defense. Kareem still had to play both ways and face a defensive juggernaut focused on stopping him on offense yet a young Kareem put up great numbers in RS and the playoffs against Wilt.

[Odinn]

Kareem. You can not have a better case against KAJ if you had that many choke-jobs.

[scandisk_]

KAJ, better all around. Statistically dominant plus the hardware.

[julizaver]

I don't see how that diminishes what Kareem did? Wilt was an elite defender even before he decided to save energy on offense and focus on defense. Kareem still had to play both ways and face a defensive juggernaut focused on stopping him on offense yet a young Kareem put up great numbers in RS and the playoffs against Wilt.

I could argue (using "Russell's standard" vs Wilt during the 60s) that in '72 regular season, where Kareem averaged 40 ppg in 5 games vs Wilt (his best stretch) Bucks lost 4 of the games. Oscar Robertson missed few games and Kareem needed to score more. In the game in which he scored 50 pts, Lakers were leading from the start and were in control most of the game, when Bucks closed the gap to two points (in the 4th I think), Kareem missed 6 consecutive shots (Wilt put the clamps on him when it matters most). Not to mentioned that Kareem was outrebounded badly 24 to ...8 . To summarize it - Wilt stopped Kareem in the deciding moments and dominated under the boards, conclusion using "Russell standard" Wilt outplayed Kareem - and Kareem 50 pts game "empty stats".

In the game in which Kareem scored 40 pts, again Wilt dominated under the boards and again Lakers won.
In the first game from that season Kareem scored 39 points on 17 from 33 shooting, but made 13 TOs was outrebounded again badly 26 to 17, Bucks losed again.
The only game where Kareem outplayed Wilt was the only game where Bucks won and it was the famous game, that ended Lakers 33 winning streak.
To summarize it - during his best 5 games stretch vs Wilt using ISH logic Kareem was "empty stats" loser.
Now let's see the playoffs - under ISH logic aplied for Wilt vs Russell, Kareem choked badly as he avaraged 33 pts on 0.456 shooting, a HUUUUGE drop from his reg.season averages vs Wilt (almost 7 ppg) and his Bucks team lost 2 to 4. Not to mentioned that Wilt outplayed Kareem in the decisive moments or Kareem shooting 0.400 in the last 4 games (56/140).

This is how it will looks like if we used Russell criteria vs Wilt. Kareem at his best vs old man Wilt was an "empty stats loser". And his teams losed 8 of the 11 games.

Anyway I am not arguing that Kareem put up great numbers against Wilt. Both players were All-time greats and do what they were supposed to do at that stage of their careers.

[dunksby]

I could argue (using "Russell's standard" vs Wilt during the 60s) that in '72 regular season, where Kareem averaged 40 ppg in 5 games vs Wilt (his best stretch) Bucks lost 4 of the games. Oscar Robertson missed few games and Kareem needed to score more. In the game in which he scored 50 pts, Lakers were leading from the start and were in control most of the game, when Bucks closed the gap to two points (in the 4th I think), Kareem missed 6 consecutive shots (Wilt put the clamps on him when it matters most). Not to mentioned that Kareem was outrebounded badly 24 to ...8 . To summarize it - Wilt stopped Kareem in the deciding moments and dominated under the boards, conclusion using "Russell standard" Wilt outplayed Kareem - and Kareem 50 pts game "empty stats".

In the game in which Kareem scored 40 pts, again Wilt dominated under the boards and again Lakers won.
In the first game from that season Kareem scored 39 points on 17 from 33 shooting, but made 13 TOs was outrebounded again badly 26 to 17, Bucks losed again.
The only game where Kareem outplayed Wilt was the only game where Bucks won and it was the famous game, that ended Lakers 33 winning streak.
To summarize it - during his best 5 games stretch vs Wilt using ISH logic Kareem was "empty stats" loser.
Now let's see the playoffs - under ISH logic aplied for Wilt vs Russell, Kareem choked badly as he avaraged 33 pts on 0.456 shooting, a HUUUUGE drop from his reg.season averages vs Wilt (almost 7 ppg) and his Bucks team lost 2 to 4. Not to mentioned that Wilt outplayed Kareem in the decisive moments.

This is how it will looks like if we used Russell criteria vs Wilt. Kareem at his best vs old man Wilt was an "empty stats loser".

Anyway I am not arguing that Kareem put up great numbers against Wilt. Both players were All-time greats and do what they were supposed to do at that stage of their careers.
Russell and Wilt spent most of their career battling each other out, so I don't see why are you comparing the matchups?

[julizaver]

Russell and Wilt spent most of their career battling each other out, so I don't see why are you comparing the matchups?

Because a lot of people here claimed that Russell "kicked" Wit's ass and that Wilt was choker and statspadder using the same criteria/standard I mentioned in the previous post, although the truth is that Wilt outplayed Russell in the majority of the games, just his rosters were weaker for most of their 10 years H2H rivalry, esspecially in the first 5 years. As awesome and great player Russell was he was outplayed by Wilt to a far higher extent than Kareem ever outplayed Wilt (if we asume that Wilt was outplayed by Kareem in their H2H).

[dunksby]

Because a lot of people here claimed that Russell "kicked" Wit's ass and that Wilt was choker and statspadder using the same criteria/standard I mentioned in the previous post, although the truth is that Wilt outplayed Russell in the majority of the games, just his rosters were weaker for most of their 10 years H2H rivalry, esspecially in the first 5 years. As awesome and great player Russell was he was outplayed by Wilt to a far higher extent than Kareem ever outplayed Wilt (if we asume that Wilt was outplayed by Kareem in their H2H).
Wilt outplayed Russell greatly, that's a valid point and I have him above Russell in my rankings (3rd) but he doesn't have a better case for GOAT than Kareem. Kareem is the GOAT basketball player.

[Psileas]

In the first game from that season Kareem scored 39 points on 17 from 33 shooting, but made 13 TOs was outrebounded again badly 26 to 17, Bucks losed again.

Wow, I wonder what type of TO's these were. Seems like another testament of Wilt's defense. There are multiple clips of him forcefully knocking the ball out of Kareem's hands, so I wonder how many of these TO's were steals by Wilt.
In 3ball style, I'd contend that Wilt was a great "TO enforcer".

[insidious301]

Because a lot of people here claimed that Russell "kicked" Wit's ass and that Wilt was choker and statspadder using the same criteria/standard I mentioned in the previous post, although the truth is that Wilt outplayed Russell in the majority of the games, just his rosters were weaker for most of their 10 years H2H rivalry, esspecially in the first 5 years. As awesome and great player Russell was he was outplayed by Wilt to a far higher extent than Kareem ever outplayed Wilt (if we asume that Wilt was outplayed by Kareem in their H2H).

Statistically, there really was never a comparison. Russell could take Wilt down a notch or two, but those games were few and far between. Truthfully, though, we would be better off not comparing the 2 of them H2H, because it sort of limits and belittles their legacies. They were both unique individuals, who had amazing careers in their own right. If Chamberlain had the offensive edge, Russel ruled on the defenside side. Rebounding, assisting, and most importantly, being THE MAN of their teams -- they filled in all the holes.

I believe CavsFTW said it best. If you value championships and winning, you go with Russell. You value dominance and talent, it's Wilt.

[GimmeThat]

I agree with much of the other stuff you wrote. Kareem was a better team player, but I also feel that's more circumstance than it is personality. Neither guy was an all time great leader. And Wilt was a better passer.


what you are REALLY trying to say.

Is that yuppies ruined basketball in terms of its team concept.

[Helix]

Statistically, there really was never a comparison. Russell could take Wilt down a notch or two, but those games were few and far between. Truthfully, though, we would be better off not comparing the 2 of them H2H, because it sort of limits and belittles their legacies. They were both unique individuals, who had amazing careers in their own right. If Chamberlain had the offensive edge, Russel ruled on the defenside side. Rebounding, assisting, and most importantly, being THE MAN of their teams -- they filled in all the holes.

I believe CavsFTW said it best. If you value championships and winning, you go with Russell. You value dominance and talent, it's Wilt.


IF that's the case, then it's a silly argument, isn't it? Who doesn't value championships and winning more?

[stanlove1111]

Statistically, there really was never a comparison. Russell could take Wilt down a notch or two, but those games were few and far between. Truthfully, though, we would be better off not comparing the 2 of them H2H, because it sort of limits and belittles their legacies. They were both unique individuals, who had amazing careers in their own right. If Chamberlain had the offensive edge, Russel ruled on the defenside side. Rebounding, assisting, and most importantly, being THE MAN of their teams -- they filled in all the holes.

I believe CavsFTW said it best. If you value championships and winning, you go with Russell. You value dominance and talent, it's Wilt.

I will always take the player who's game adds more value to a basketball team. I don't care about his stats. Russell's game added more to a basketball teams then Wilt's. Wilt took a bigger piece of his teams Pie then Russell did, but Russell's game as a whole added more value.

. Russell was a much better defender then Wilt, and his blocked shots were more valuable then Wilt's because he kept them inbounds and Wilt often did not. His game didn't require that he stand right outside the paint on offense clogging things up for his teammates. Russell didn't care about his personal stats and was fine leaving a bigger piece of the pie for his teammates. Wilt not so much.

As for Jabbar and Wilt I always have them tied. Can never choice..I want Jabbar on offense with the sky hook and I want Wilt on the boards and probably defense..Can never decide who added more value to a team.

[DatAsh]

his blocked shots were more valuable then Wilt's because he kept them inbounds and Wilt often did not.

What evidence do you have to support this?

[stanlove1111]

What evidence do you have to support this?

I watched them at the time, it was well known at the time, you can see video of it yourself if you look, and I believe but could be wrong that Wilt himself admitted this..

Your are not going to be one of those guys that asks for proof of something that has been well known for decades are you?

[DatAsh]

I watched them at the time, it was well known at the time, you can see video of it yourself if you look, and I believe but could be wrong that Wilt himself admitted this..

Your are not going to be one of those guys that asks for proof of something that has been well known for decades are you?

I mean, it seems more like a myth that's been well known for decades. Video I've seen of Wilt never supports this.

[BigBoss]

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view4/1145000/diglett-dig-trio-o.gif

http://i.imgur.com/JpbIfXx.gif

http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--h3WL6cd9--/wi8src56el4lhgdd3jty.gif

[julizaver]

Wow, I wonder what type of TO's these were. Seems like another testament of Wilt's defense. There are multiple clips of him forcefully knocking the ball out of Kareem's hands, so I wonder how many of these TO's were steals by Wilt.
In 3ball style, I'd contend that Wilt was a great "TO enforcer".

Yes, you are right - you can check the resume of the game plus the boxscore here (page 198 from 223 and it is rotated right unfortunately so you need to scroll down as it is the second page):
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=jvrRlaHg2sAC&dat=19711121&printsec=frontpage&hl=en

Although it is Milwaukee Journal they credited Wilt with "forced the big Buck into a flock of mistakes with his constant harasmant on defense".

[dankok8]

While there were games that an older Wilt held Kareem down and a few where he even actually outplayed him we know there are plenty of games where Kareem just annihilated Wilt. Chamberlain fans conveniently ignore those games to further their agenda. Truth is Kareem was easily the better player in their H2H's and in general while they were in the league together. However I'd be the first to say that their match-ups aren't really all that informative taking the age difference into account. Quite simply we'll never know how prime Wilt vs. prime Kareem would turn out. We just don't know...

With that being said even if Wilt was the more individually dominant player in his prime (in the playoffs he wasn't), I'd pick a guy that was more of a winner. Kareem took his team higher. Even though the media and the fans never liked him, Kareem's aloof personality (as opposed to Wilt's ego and narcissism) helped him. Kareem didn't give a shit what people said. He played his game, his skyhook was an effective clutch weapon, he could hit free throws, he never played for stats as far as we know...

And I always chuckle when Wilt fans talk about their favorite player's bad luck with teammates etc. but ignore injuries that Kareem's teams suffered in 1972, 1974, 1977, 1981, and 1989. Yes Wilt was "within an eyelash" of winning 4-5 more rings but so was Kareem. Wilt could have retired with 5-6 but Kareem could have retired with 10-11. Somehow what-ifs are only justified with Wilt!! :oldlol:

[julizaver]

While there were games that an older Wilt held Kareem down and a few where he even actually outplayed him we know there are plenty of games where Kareem just annihilated Wilt. Chamberlain fans conveniently ignore those games to further their agenda. Truth is Kareem was easily the better player in their H2H's and in general while they were in the league together. However I'd be the first to say that their match-ups aren't really all that informative taking the age difference into account. Quite simply we'll never know how prime Wilt vs. prime Kareem would turn out. We just don't know...

With that being said even if Wilt was the more individually dominant player in his prime (in the playoffs he wasn't), I'd pick a guy that was more of a winner. Kareem took his team higher. Even though the media and the fans never liked him, Kareem's aloof personality (as opposed to Wilt's ego and narcissism) helped him. Kareem didn't give a shit what people said. He played his game, his skyhook was an effective clutch weapon, he could hit free throws, he never played for stats as far as we know...

And I always chuckle when Wilt fans talk about their favorite player's bad luck with teammates etc. but ignore injuries that Kareem's teams suffered in 1972, 1974, 1977, 1981, and 1989. Yes Wilt was "within an eyelash" of winning 4-5 more rings but so was Kareem. Wilt could have retired with 5-6 but Kareem could have retired with 10-11. Somehow what-ifs are only justified with Wilt!! :oldlol:

First of all I used the Russell standard to show how I could downplay Kareem performances in 1971-72 season and using moder ISH logic he could be seen as loser and choker, losing most of the games, the series and bein outplayed in the decisive moments.

From 1970-71 season Kareem was the best player in the league and I am not going to argue with that fact. One could argue that Kareem was the best player in the league even after the first half of his rookie season.
Yes there are games where Kareem outplayed badly Wilt and it is something which could be expected at that time and their respective career stages.



We'll never know how prime Wilt vs. prime Kareem would turn out. We just don't know...


Probably better ...

And how would 36 years old Kareem vs 36 years old Wilt turn out ?

And how would 25 years old Wilt vs 36 years old Kareem turn out ?


To be a winner you need that luck, Russell have it from beginning in NBA, Jordan for example spend some of his prime in the shadow of Pistons, but it was not because he was not a winner or the best player in the league, he was just playing for the weaker team. This is. Kareem's UCLA team were champions before he joined them and after he left them.

[julizaver]

And I always chuckle when Wilt fans talk about their favorite player's bad luck with teammates etc. but ignore injuries that Kareem's teams suffered in 1972, 1974, 1977, 1981, and 1989. Yes Wilt was "within an eyelash" of winning 4-5 more rings but so was Kareem. Wilt could have retired with 5-6 but Kareem could have retired with 10-11. Somehow what-ifs are only justified with Wilt!! :oldlol:

I am not one of them and I always accept the facts. Bad luck, injuries to teamates is not rare thing to the team sports.
Both have great careers, had their legacy.

It is between how you evaluate greatnest and criteria used.

[3ball]

quick question: does wilt's 0.325 WS/48 number in 1964 (the highest i've ever seen), include the 6 to 15 blocks per game that he got, or at least some sort of assumption for it?

also, on wilt's championship team of 1967, did he have anyone of the caliber of Magic Johnson or Oscar Robertson?

[RoundMoundOfReb]

quick question: does wilt's 0.325 WS/48 number in 1964 (the highest i've ever seen), include the 6 to 15 blocks per game that he got, or at least some sort of assumption for it?
no. i dont believe so. it also doesn't include steals or turnovers i believe.

[3ball]

no. i dont believe so. it also doesn't include steals or turnovers i believe.
ok, cool.

i also find it interesting that kareem's best year statistically was 1972 when he got 35 PPG and 18 RPG.

we only have to go back 7 years to 1965 to find a season when Wilt did significantly better, to the tune of 39 PPG and 24 RPG... i don't think the game changed between 1965 and 1972..

and Wilt's six seasons before 1965 all destroy Kareem's best by even wider margins... like, put a prime Kareem back in 1962, and he doesn't get anywhere near 50 PPG and 27 RPG.

[navy]

ok, cool.

i also find it interesting that kareem's best year statistically was 1972 when he got 35 PPG and 18 RPG.

we only have to go back 7 years to 1965 to find a season when Wilt did significantly better, to the tune of 39 PPG and 24 RPG... i don't think the game changed between 1965 and 1972..

and Wilt's six seasons before 1965 all destroy Kareem's best by even wider margins... like, put a prime Kareem back in 1962, and he doesn't get 50 PPG and 27 RPG.
Wilt was blatantly stat padding in his "best seasons". Unprecedented levels. I think Kareem could do similar given the same circumstances. In fact, I dont even know if Wilt would call those his best seasons.

[3ball]

Wilt was blatantly stat padding in his "best seasons". Unprecedented levels.
wow, that's a great argument to make anytime a guy who i want to be worse has the way higher stats.

it's such a great argument, that i think I'LL use it... (not even if lightning struck me and i became retarded and unable to come up with anything else)

[DaRkJaWs]

Wilt was blatantly stat padding in his "best seasons". Unprecedented levels. I think Kareem could do similar given the same circumstances. In fact, I dont even know if Wilt would call those his best seasons.
Bruh tell us more about how centers, who don't bring the ball up the court and have to have it fed to them, can stat pad. Please, I'd like to see your logic, brah.

[navy]

I didnt watch Wilt, just going by what Ive heard and read about from older posters who did. So sure, dont take my word for it.

It's a weird hour now, but I'll pm a few if they want to chime in.

[DaRkJaWs]

I didnt watch Wilt, just going by what Ive heard and read about from older posters who did. So sure, dont take my word for it.

It's a weird hour now, but I'll pm a few if they want to chime in.
Dodged. Kill yourself.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

I watched Wilt play live. He was a good player. Would probably #2 in today's league behind LeBron James.

[navy]

Dodged. Kill yourself.
:biggums:

Alright. How about instead of stat pad, I say he was playing a role where he was out to put up as many stats as he could with the coach letting him do it.

Better?:coleman:

Although, haha, reading some older threads. Kareem might have been quite the padder himself.

[dunksby]

:biggums:

Alright. How about instead of stat pad, I say he was playing a role where he was out to put up as many stats as he could with the coach letting him do it.

Better?:coleman:

Although, haha, reading some older threads. Kareem might have been quite the padder himself.
Wilt played on a team palying at a pace of 130 and his coach wanted the team to revolve around him, how else could take 40FGA and 17FTA?
It's funny how Wilt stans emphasize his domination while, it was Kareem's domination in college that got dunking banned. You wanna talk about somebody having a better GOAT case than Kareem? The only legitimate one is MJ, others are just forced.

[Odinn]

quick question: does wilt's 0.325 WS/48 number in 1964 (the highest i've ever seen), include the 6 to 15 blocks per game that he got, or at least some sort of assumption for it?

also, on wilt's championship team of 1967, did he have anyone of the caliber of Magic Johnson or Oscar Robertson?
Kareem's WS/48 numbers;
1970-71 / 0.326
1971-72 / 0.340
And in those seasons, blocks-steals-turnovers were also not recorded.

There would be a great discussion between 1966-67 Hal Greer and rookie Magic Johnson.

Nice but failed attempt in the end.

[dunksby]

Kareem's WS/48 numbers;
1970-71 / 0.326
1971-72 / 0.340
And in those seasons, blocks-steals-turnovers were also not recorded.

There would be a great discussion between 1966-67 Hal Greer and rookie Magic Johnson.

Nice but failed attempt in the end.
Show me an instance where this guy didn't make an asshole out of himself :oldlol:

[navy]

Kareem's WS/48 numbers;
1970-71 / 0.326
1971-72 / 0.340
And in those seasons, blocks-steals-turnovers were also not recorded.

There would be a great discussion between 1966-67 Hal Greer and rookie Magic Johnson.

Nice but failed attempt in the end.
:roll:

3ball please respond.

Post gifs as well

[3ball]

:roll:

3ball please respond.

Post gifs as well
Wilt was the far superior shot-blocker - the inclusion of blocks would help wilt vastly more.

and again, kareem's best year statistically was 1972 when he got 35 PPG and 18 RPG.

we only have to go back 7 years to 1965 to find a season when Wilt did significantly better, to the tune of 39 PPG and 24 RPG... i don't think the game changed between 1965 and 1972..

and Wilt's six seasons before 1965 all destroy Kareem's best by even wider margins... like, put a prime Kareem back in 1962, and he doesn't get anywhere near 50 PPG and 27 RPG.

and sorry, your "wilt was just stat-padding" argument is such garbage, that it proves the point.

[navy]

Wilt was the far superior shot-blocker - the inclusion of blocks would help wilt vastly more.

and again, kareem's best year statistically was 1972 when he got 35 PPG and 18 RPG.

we only have to go back 7 years to 1965 to find a season when Wilt did significantly better, to the tune of 39 PPG and 24 RPG... i don't think the game changed between 1965 and 1972..

and Wilt's six seasons before 1965 all destroy Kareem's best by even wider margins... like, put a prime Kareem back in 1962, and he doesn't get anywhere near 50 PPG and 27 RPG.

and sorry, your "wilt was just stat-padding" argument is such garbage, that it proves the point.

Where are the gifs? i need visualization

[3ball]

Where are the gifs? i need visualization
don't need em.

wilt's numbers in 1965 and prior destroy Kareem's peak stats in 1972.

so unless you think the game changed from 1965 to 1972, then wilt is clearly far better.

it's a classic tale of a guy coming around well past a guy's prime, as kareem did with wilt.

but rewind the clock 7-10 years and put kareem in wilt's place, and he doesn't put up anywhere NEAR the numbers wilt did in his prime.

[navy]

don't need em.

wilt's numbers in 1965 and prior destroy Kareem's peak stats in 1972.

so unless you think the game changed from 1965 to 1972, then wilt is clearly far better.

it's a classic tale of a guy coming around well past a guy's prime, as kareem did with wilt.

but rewind the clock 7-10 years and put kareem in wilt's place, and he doesn't put up anywhere NEAR the numbers wilt did in his prime.
Need gifs. Come thru man. :coleman:

[3ball]

Need gifs. Come thru man. :coleman:



http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/93b87861dcfb88b00614ef11e073091f.gif... Over Kareem


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/e70fc55029c762b61134ce56ff7e8b00.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/f98e08cba9873e98eb1fe0e1b722d883.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/ab9a079b4c7c53109de647dfc1a4d676.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/6e8bf1f2863fcb1de94fec7b805843db.gif.. Over All-Pro beast Walt Bellamy


In these GIF's, Wilt finishes over defenders with a drop-step finger roll going the opposite way with half his back to the defender, going through the defender - like, he has no advantage on the defender - it's just sheer physical superiority, incredible touch and agility.

The only way any ball player can finish like this over defenders is if you are vastly physically superior AND if you have incredible touch and agility - you never saw Shaq or Kareem finishing over guys like this - not a great enough combination of power, strength, agility or touch.

This one-of-a-kind shot is a testament to Wilt's GOAT talent.

[Psileas]

Kareem's WS/48 numbers;
1970-71 / 0.326
1971-72 / 0.340
And in those seasons, blocks-steals-turnovers were also not recorded.

There would be a great discussion between 1966-67 Hal Greer and rookie Magic Johnson.

Nice but failed attempt in the end.

Only...Kareem's team won 66 and 61 games in these 2 seasons, while Wilt's team won 48 in 1964. Quite a bit easier to dominate win shares as long as your team wins a lot. Also, quite a bit easier to dominate "per 48" stats when you're only playing 40 mpg ('71 Kareem).

[dunksby]

Only...Kareem's team won 66 and 61 games in these 2 seasons, while Wilt's team won 48 in 1964. Quite a bit easier to dominate win shares as long as your team wins a lot. Also, quite a bit easier to dominate "per 48" stats when you're only playing 40 mpg ('71 Kareem).
Wilt stans are something else, taking negatives out of positives, what's next? Why does Kareem have 6 MVPs? Is it necessary to have 19 All-Star appearances? How is winning 6 rings helpful to one's resume? :roll: :roll:

[Psileas]

Wilt stans are something else, taking negatives out of positives, what's next? Why does Kareem have 6 MVPs? Is it necessary to have 19 All-Star appearances? How is winning 6 rings helpful to one's resume? :roll: :roll:

Can you offer some type of counter-argument, instead of just rambling on, like a typical Wilt hater?
Can you spot where I mentioned anything negative here? Is adding context being negative? If someone claims that Wilt averaged 25 rpg in his prime because there were more rebounds available, is this supposed to be "taking negatives out of positives"?

[jlip]

Both are on my firt tier.

[ClipperRevival]

KAJ is the only guy who I think can make a legit case as being the GOAT along with MJ. Everyone else is a step below. When you look at Kareem's body of work, from individual accomplishments, individual awards, team accomplishments and college dominance, he has to rank above Wilt.

Yes, at his peak, Wilt was more dominant. But KAJ was much consistent throughout his career and people don't mention that Wilt's career ppg average is a mere 22 ppg, which 8 ppg below his career average.

[SugarHill]

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/93b87861dcfb88b00614ef11e073091f.gif... Over Kareem


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/e70fc55029c762b61134ce56ff7e8b00.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/f98e08cba9873e98eb1fe0e1b722d883.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/ab9a079b4c7c53109de647dfc1a4d676.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/6e8bf1f2863fcb1de94fec7b805843db.gif.. Over All-Pro beast Walt Bellamy


In these GIF's, Wilt finishes over defenders with a drop-step finger roll going the opposite way with half his back to the defender, going through the defender - like, he has no advantage on the defender - it's just sheer physical superiority, incredible touch and agility.

The only way any ball player can finish like this over defenders is if you are vastly physically superior AND if you have incredible touch and agility - you never saw Shaq or Kareem finishing over guys like this - not a great enough combination of power, strength, agility or touch.

This one-of-a-kind shot is a testament to Wilt's GOAT talent.
:oldlol:

[3ball]

:oldlol:
http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/6e8bf1f2863fcb1de94fec7b805843db.gif

Shaq can't do this, or any of the other GIFs, trust me - he might try to drop-step closer to the rim and dunk it, but anyone can do that - drop-step dunking it is not nearly as physically impressive of skillful.

[ArbitraryWater]

Wilt stans are something else, taking negatives out of positives, what's next? Why does Kareem have 6 MVPs? Is it necessary to have 19 All-Star appearances? How is winning 6 rings helpful to one's resume? :roll: :roll:

What is this? Stop being a dumb troll.

All he's saying is that Kareem had a better team to work with, unless you really believe they were similar squads and rookie Kareem was worth 18 more games than prime Wilt.


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/6e8bf1f2863fcb1de94fec7b805843db.gif

Shaq can't do this, or any of the other GIFs, trust me - he might try to drop-step closer to the rim and dunk it, but anyone can do that - drop-step dunking it is not nearly as physically impressive of skillful.

:roll:

The subtlety.

[Sarcastic]

Magic Johnson really saved Jabbar's career. He'd be thought of as an even more of a "can't win center" if Magic didn't come win him some rings.

1 ring in the parity filled 70's? :lol

[ClipperRevival]

Magic Johnson really saved Jabbar's career. He'd be thought of as an even more of a "can't win center" if Magic didn't come win him some rings.

1 ring in the parity filled 70's? :lol

How many did Magic win without Jabbar? Right, ZERO.

[CavaliersFTW]

Magic Johnson really saved Jabbar's career. He'd be thought of as an even more of a "can't win center" if Magic didn't come win him some rings.

1 ring in the parity filled 70's? :lol
^ truth

[ClipperRevival]

^ truth

The truth is, we can play these "what if" scenarios with any player. How many does Bird win without McHale/Parish? Does LeBron win ANY ring if he doesn't go to a super team? How many would MJ win without Pip? Great teams win championships, which is usually led by an alpha dog and then a second fiddle and sometimes a very good third player. Magic needed KAJ just as much as KAJ needed Magic to win.

[CavaliersFTW]

The truth is, we can play these "what if" scenarios with any player. How many does Bird win without McHale/Parish? Does LeBron win ANY ring if he doesn't go to a super team? How many would MJ win without Pip? Great teams win championships, which is usually led by an alpha dog and then a second fiddle and sometimes a very good third player. Magic needed KAJ just as much as KAJ needed Magic to win.
I know we don't need what-ifs

Wilt most dominant ever

Russell winningest ever

My two GOATs where the least number of what ifs are necessary to explain their place. They accomplished the most.

KAJ and MJ next in line - for being in a sort of in-between zone with plenty of accomplishments in their own right.

[ClipperRevival]

I know we don't need what-ifs

Wilt most dominant ever

Russell winningest ever

My two GOATs where the least number of what ifs are necessary to explain their place. They accomplished the most.

KAJ and MJ next in line - for being in a sort of in-between zone with plenty of accomplishments in their own right.

I see it the other way around. To me, MJ and KAJ are the two greatest ever and then you have Wilt/Russell.

Russell lacked an offensive game. You couldn't throw the ball down the post to him and tell him to dominate via the post. And he also won most of his rings when the league only had 8 teams.

Wilt, as dominant as he was, didn't have much of a game from 15 feet. He overpowered you with his size and athleticism. And his playoff stats are unimpressive with his 22ppg

KAJ could do everything as a big. Probably not as dominant on the D end as the other two but he had the single greatest offensive weapon in history.

To me, KAJ and MJ, when you look at their entire body of work, are the top 2. From individual accomplishments, individual awards, rings and college (for Jabbar). Also, you have to consider their game/skills. They were about as complete as you can get.

I just don't see how anyone can rate Russell over Jabbar when Russell simply lacked a dominant offensive game. How can you be the greatest if you can't even dominate on one end of the court?

[ArbitraryWater]

I know we don't need what-ifs

Wilt most dominant ever

Russell winningest ever

My two GOATs where the least number of what ifs are necessary to explain their place. They accomplished the most.

KAJ and MJ next in line - for being in a sort of in-between zone with plenty of accomplishments in their own right.

Again, I already said this in the other thread..

what if we combine winning and dominance?

MJ/Kareem > Wilt/Russell, get over it.

[CavaliersFTW]

Again, I already said this in the other thread..

what if we combine winning and dominance?

MJ/Kareem > Wilt/Russell, get over it.
I could easily say combine them, and you'll still find Kareem and MJ don't add up to Wilt and Russell.

Kareem and MJ have what, 1/30th of Wilt's dominating records? So they aren't even remotely close to his dominance.

They have what, 2/5ths of Russell's championships?

They aren't a perfect blend... they are as high a blend as any 2 players have ever gotten, but they still don't stack up to Wilt or Russell's level. They'd still have quite a ways to go if they wanted to be a reasonable blend of Wilt's dominance, like they didn't even get close to it. And they also didn't get half way to Russell's winning success.

I didn't make this observation up either I heard it and am sharing this opinion from Sonny Hill, KAJ, and Rick Barry, the two players with the most stand out resumes that require the least amount of explanations at the top:

Wilt - if you favor dominating

Russell - if you favor winning

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Again, I already said this in the other thread..

what if we combine winning and dominance?

MJ/Kareem > Wilt/Russell, get over it.

When you combine all factors that go into GOAT: Dominance, Stats, Winning, Honors, Championships, Awards (MVPs and FMVPs), Jordan and Kareem have the best cases, in my opinion.

Russell can be argued if literally all you care about is winning and removing context, but Wilt has the weakest case of all GOATs.

[AirFederer]

Isn't most dominant ever another way of saying Emptiest Stats Ever?

Dominance w/o rings = empty stats

:oldlol:

[ArbitraryWater]

When you combine all factors that go into GOAT: Dominance, Stats, Winning, Honors, Championships, Awards (MVPs and FMVPs), Jordan and Kareem have the best cases, in my opinion.

Russell can be argued if literally all you care about is winning and removing context, but Wilt has the weakest case of all GOATs.

Yep, not hard to understand either.. dude can't, won't accept it though..

[Sarcastic]

To answer the OP's question, Wilt has the better case for GOAT. He has statistical dominance that is unparalleled in almost every other sport. Kareem does not have the statistical dominance that Wilt has, nor does he have the winning dominance that Russell. He has a little bit of both, but not good as either in the respective areas. There is not one aspect of basketball that he is the absolute best at, other than longevity, and that is not GOAT worthy.

[jlip]

When you combine all factors that go into GOAT: Dominance, Stats, Winning, Honors, Championships, Awards (MVPs and FMVPs), Jordan and Kareem have the best cases, in my opinion.

Russell can be argued if literally all you care about is winning and removing context, but Wilt has the weakest case of all GOATs.

Why do people keep saying this? Russell has winning, records, stats, and accolades. For some strange reason people think that statistical dominance only relates to scoring numbers as if other stats don't exist. There is no greater correlation between volume individual scoring and winning than there is between volume individual rebounding and winning. Teams with the league's leading scorer have had losing seasons. Teams with the league's leading rebounder have had losing seasons also. Teams with the scoring champion have won rings just as teams with the best rebounder have won several championships. For the record, Russell has won championships as his team's leader in points, rebounds, assists, and fg% in the playoffs. What else is a player supposed to do?

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Why do people keep saying this? Russell has winning, records, stats, and accolades. For some strange reason people think that statistical dominance only relates to scoring numbers as if other stats don't exist. There is no greater correlation between volume individual scoring and winning than there is between volume individual rebounding and winning. Teams with the league's leading scorer have had losing seasons. Teams with the league's leading rebounder have had losing seasons also. Teams with the scoring champion have won rings just as teams with the best rebounder have won several championships. For the record, Russell has won championships as his team's leader in points, rebounds, assists, and fg% in the playoffs. What else is a player supposed to do?

Russell has the best case if you value championships (he isn't Robert Horry so don't get it twisted). If you value everything, his resume does NOT stack up to Kareem or Jordan's, who again, have the best combo of stats, dominance, accolades and honors.

[ArbitraryWater]

Why do people keep saying this? Russell has winning, records, stats, and accolades. For some strange reason people think that statistical dominance only relates to scoring numbers as if other stats don't exist. There is no greater correlation between volume individual scoring and winning than there is between volume individual rebounding and winning. Teams with the league's leading scorer have had losing seasons. Teams with the league's leading rebounder have had losing seasons also. Teams with the scoring champion have won rings just as teams with the best rebounder have won several championships. For the record, Russell has won championships as his team's leader in points, rebounds, assists, and fg% in the playoffs. What else is a player supposed to do?

What does this have to do with all around dominance against Kareem and Jordan?

Sorry, he DOESN'T HAVE THAT KIND OF ABILITY....

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

And to expand on that... I also value players' skills than I do anything else. Jordan and Kareem dominated on both ends, while Russell, who wasn't exactly bad on offense, isn't really considered ELITE on that end either (nowhere close to Kareem/Wilt/Jordan).

[Psileas]

Russell has the best case if you value championships (he isn't Robert Horry so don't get it twisted). If you value everything, his resume does NOT stack up to Kareem or Jordan's, who again, have the best combo of stats, dominance, accolades and honors.

Russell has every non scoring statistical box checked: GOAT level rebounding, GOAT level shot blocking, great passing and stealing. And the sole reason he doesn't have as many accolades is because they just didn't exist as many as in Jordan's time - and even without them, he still ranks very high accolade-wise. No reason not to believe that, given these criteria, he doesn't possibly have the best "combination" of achievements.

[ClipperRevival]

Context is also important here.

Russell won 11 rings in 13 seasons. Unheard of winning. And no team has won more than 3 in a row since then. Why? I would say level of comp and more parity in the league. No matter how great a team is (80's Lakers, 80's Celtics, 90's Bulls, 00's Lakers), you can't stay on top forever. You peak and then start to decline while other upstarts eventually catch up to you.

That's why i am actually more impressed with MJ's 6 rings than Russell's 11. MJ won 6 rings in his last 6 full seasons as a Bull. That is AMAZING dominance in this day and age. Russell got most of his rings when there were only 8 teams in the league and his teams had a monopoly of talent over the rest of the league.

So i do get a little offended when people just compare rings at face value. Not all rings are the same, at least to me. You have to look at the context.

[ClipperRevival]

If you were to allow me to pick any center in history to start a team, i would take several guys over Russell and feel confident about it. KAJ, Wilt and Olajuwon. I might even take Shaq over Russell. The guys i mentioned could dominate you on both ends while Russell couldn't. If my best big can't dominate the game offensively, how valueable can he be?

I know i'll catch serious slack from some of you Boston/Russell fans, but to me Russell is a glorified version of Rodman. Their fortay was D and rebounding. They did both about as well as anyone. Sure, you gotta give Russell extra points for his superior height/length along with his leadership/clutch qualities, but when you break down his game, it compares favorably to a guy like Rodman. D and rebounding being their bread and butter.