Proof Jordan > Kareem and Shaq

[3ball]

Let's say Jordan and Shaq swapped sidekicks.

How many rings does Shaq win if he has Pippen instead of Kobe?... and does Shaq win in 2006 with Pippen instead of Wade?

Now let's look at Kareem - How many rings does Kareem win with Pippen instead of Magic?

This alone means Jordan > Kareem and Shaq... Period.

And then of course we can look at it from Jordan's point of view - how much better would Jordan have done if he played with Magic Johnson, 2006 Wade, or prime Kobe, instead of Pippen?

And see that's the problem - even if Jordan had played with Magic Johnson instead of Pippen, it's still hard to imagine Jordan being better off than he already was, because he already could have broken Bill Russell's record for championships in a row (8) if his dad hadn't gotten murdered.
.

[Hey Yo]

Let's say Jordan and Shaq swapped sidekicks.

How many rings does Shaq win if he has Pippen instead of Kobe?... and does Shaq win in 2006 with Pippen instead of Wade?

Now let's look at Kareem - How many rings does Kareem win with Pippen instead of Magic?

This alone means Jordan FAR > Kareem and Shaq... Period.

And then of course we can look at it from Jordan's point of view - how much better would Jordan have done if he played with Magic Johnson, 2006 Wade, or prime Kobe, instead of Pippen?

And see that's the problem - even if Jordan had played with Magic Johnson instead of Pippen, it's still hard to imagine Jordan being better off than he already was, because he already could have broken Bill Russell's record for championships if his dad hadn't gotten murdered.
Weak troll, yo.

[navy]

Let's say Jordan and Shaq swapped sidekicks.

How many rings does Shaq win if he has Pippen instead of Kobe?... and does Shaq win in 2006 with Pippen instead of Wade?

Now let's look at Kareem - How many rings does Kareem win with Pippen instead of Magic?

This alone means Jordan > Kareem and Shaq... Period.

And then of course we can look at it from Jordan's point of view - how much better would Jordan have done if he played with Magic Johnson, 2006 Wade, or prime Kobe, instead of Pippen?

And see that's the problem - even if Jordan had played with Magic Johnson instead of Pippen, it's still hard to imagine Jordan being better off than he already was, because he already could have broken Bill Russell's record for championships if his dad hadn't gotten murdered.
.
:biggums:

[3ball]

Weak troll, yo.
but ur cool with the rest... :cheers:

and even for the part you question, i said "COULD" have broken Russell's record of 8 in a row... "COULD" have.... which is true

as it was, he got 3/4 of the way there, and got closer than anyone else ever has.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

http://new4.fjcdn.com/thumbnails/comments/Well+then+that+s+the+law+part+of+the+degree+not+_6 dd1e48e2f7e06b1efcad185ee3aa345.jpg

[dunksby]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvo_Saiwsgw

[K Xerxes]

As a Jordan fan, you are easily a contender for worst poster on this forum.

[J Shuttlesworth]

As a Jordan fan, you are easily a contender for worst poster on this forum.
:roll: :roll: ether doesn't get much stronger than that

[3ball]

http://new4.fjcdn.com/thumbnails/comments/Well+then+that+s+the+law+part+of+the+degree+not+_6 dd1e48e2f7e06b1efcad185ee3aa345.jpg
Magic Johnson, 2006 Wade, and prime Kobe are all FAR better than Pippen.

you're a retard for not agreeing.

[SpecialQue]

Hypotheticals aren't "proof," genius.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Magic Johnson, 2006 Wade, and prime Kobe are all FAR better than Pippen.

you're a retard for not agreeing.
http://memeshappen.com/media/created/lmpiiw.jpg

[Hey Yo]

but ur cool with the rest... :cheers:

and even for the part you question, i said "COULD" have broken Russell's record of 8 in a row... "COULD" have.... which is true

as it was, he got 3/4 of the way there, and got closer than anyone else ever has.
You never said anything about "in a row." Your wording implies 11 total.

Plus, KAJ was 32yrs old when Magic got there. You wanna give a 32yr old MJ (95-96 season) rookie Magic and say Jordan wouldn't play better?

[3ball]

:biggums:
let me explain it slowly to you kindergartners.

bill russell won 8 championships in a row, which is a record.

jordan won 6 of 8 in the 90's with a break in between because he retired over his father's death.

if his father wasn't unluckily murdered, Jordan would've had a chance to break Russell's record of 8 in a row.

does that makes sense, or do you need me to go slower?

[tpols]

Magic Johnson, 2006 Wade, and prime Kobe are all FAR better than Pippen.

you're a retard for not agreeing.
He would win less with Kobe and wade..poor fit, diminishing returns. Pippen anchored the bulls defense.. and was best facilitator.

And mj would probably fight with magic after losing fmvp award and being demoted to beta.

[Rooster]

Let's say Jordan and Shaq swapped sidekicks.

How many rings does Shaq win if he has Pippen instead of Kobe?... and does Shaq win in 2006 with Pippen instead of Wade?

Now let's look at Kareem - How many rings does Kareem win with Pippen instead of Magic?

This alone means Jordan > Kareem and Shaq... Period.

And then of course we can look at it from Jordan's point of view - how much better would Jordan have done if he played with Magic Johnson, 2006 Wade, or prime Kobe, instead of Pippen?

And see that's the problem - even if Jordan had played with Magic Johnson instead of Pippen, it's still hard to imagine Jordan being better off than he already was, because he already could have broken Bill Russell's record for championships if his dad hadn't gotten murdered.
.

I think Jordan is also taller than both of them. :oldlol:

Want to see facts

Jordan has 48 inch vertical:roll:

[J Shuttlesworth]

If Jordan didn't become a degenerate gambler, he wouldn't have developed the alpha mentality that led to chips

If Jordan didn't become a degenerate gambler, his father would still be alive

If Jordan's father wasn't murdered, he wouldn't have the chip on his shoulder to 3 peat again

/3ball logic

[SouBeachTalents]

Magic Johnson, 2006 Wade, and prime Kobe are all FAR better than Pippen.

you're a retard for not agreeing.

How is Jordan playing with Kobe or Wade when they're all ball dominant SG's?

[navy]

let me explain it slowly to you kindergartners.

bill russell won 8 championships in a row, which is a record.

jordan won 6 of 8 in the 90's with a break in between because he retired over his father's death.

if his father wasn't unluckily murdered, Jordan would've had a chance to break Russell's record of 8 in a row.

does that makes sense, or do you need me to go slower?
Jordan played the 1995 playoffs. No excuses.

[3ball]

He would win less with Kobe and wade..poor fit, diminishing returns. Pippen anchored the bulls defense.. and was best facilitator.

And mj would probably fight with magic after losing fmvp award and being demoted to beta.
he won with less than kareem and shaq ever did, which makes him better.

for all the talk about big men being so dominant, they all sure needed a hell of a lot more talent to win their rings than Jordan did.

i mean, just thinking about a Jordan and Magic Johnson playing together, or Jordan and 2006 wade or prime Kobe........ it's amazing to think how insane his team would have been.

oh well, i guess pippen and 6/6 will have to do....

[SugarHill]

Jordan would do worse with Wade/Kobe than with Pippen

[dunksby]

"The only reason I came out was to play with Kareem and the Lakers."
:pimp:

[3ball]

How is Jordan playing with Kobe or Wade when they're all ball dominant SG's?
jordan isn't ball-dominant, so there's your answer.

the unchangeable fact is that Jordan won with far less than kareem and shaq ever did, which makes him better.

for all the talk about big men being so dominant, they sure needed a hell of a lot more talent to win their rings than Jordan did.

[SugarHill]

jordan isn't ball-dominant, so there's your answer.

the unchangeable fact is that Jordan won with far less than kareem and shaq ever did, which makes him better.

for all the talk about big men being so dominant, they sure needed a hell of a lot more talent to win their rings than Jordan did.
Jordan had less help than 2000 Shaq?:biggums:

Jordan had less help than 94 Hakeem?:biggums:

03 Duncan? :biggums:

[Hey Yo]

This thread is hilarious.

What next "replace MJ with Pete Myers and the Bulls still make the playoffs and 2nd round??????"

oh wait.....

[3ball]

Jordan had less help than 2000 Shaq?:biggums:


2000 is debateable... i'll give you that... which is why shaq had to be his most dominant ever (MDE) and average 40 PPG in the Finals like Jordan did. but for the rest of Shaq's championships, his cast was easily better than Jordan's.

and again, who cares about the luxury of whether jordan can play with MORE TALENT in kobe or wade - the fact is that kareem and shaq can't win with less talent in Pippen.

just for kicks though, jordan could play with kobe and wade anyway because Jordan was an off-ball player and could also play SF... or, jordan could have just played point guard, which he had already done better than anyone else had ever done it... http://ballislife.com/michael-jordan-could-of-been-the-best-point-guard-ever-want-proof/

[Overdrive]

jordan isn't ball-dominant, so there's your answer.

the unchangeable fact is that Jordan won with far less than kareem and shaq ever did, which makes him better.

for all the talk about big men being so dominant, they sure needed a hell of a lot more talent to win their rings than Jordan did.

You think the only difference between the early 2000 Lakers and the 90s Bulls(both incarnations) is just the "sidekick"?

Those Lakers were Shaq+Kobe and then a huge drop off. The '96 Bulls had Kukoc, a Horry type(last min shot taker) in Kerr, Rodman and many more. This is one of the greatest role player cast any championship team ever had. Maybe it's only rivaled by the '87 Lakers.

[ArbitraryWater]

03 Spurs were loaded.. the **** are you talking about? :biggums:

03 Spurs would beat current Spurs. You're insane if you think otherwise.


:biggums: :biggums: :biggums: :roll: :roll: :roll: :hammerhead: :hammerhead:

2nd best player Stephen Jackson.... LOADED TO THE MAX!!

[3ball]

How is Jordan playing with Kobe or Wade when they're all ball dominant SG's?


how is it you can't see the fallacy of your logic?

who cares about the luxury of whether jordan can play with MORE TALENT in kobe or wade - the fact is that kareem and shaq can't win with LESS talent in Pippen.

but just for kicks though, i'll answer your question - jordan could play with kobe and wade anyway because Jordan was an off-ball player that could play SF... or, jordan could have just played point guard, which he had already done better than anyone else had ever done it... http://ballislife.com/michael-jordan-could-of-been-the-best-point-guard-ever-want-proof/

[lilteapot]

Yeah, OP needs to be permabanned right away. Classless piece of shit, using MJ's father's murder as a tool to push his own stupid agenda. ****ing grow up, asshole.

[navy]

Pippen > Durant

As said by 3ball. :confusedshrug:

[Beastmode88]

wow 3ball seriously underrating pippen. :facepalm

[SugarHill]

Pippen > Durant

As said by 3ball. :confusedshrug:
:roll:

[andgar923]

3ball.... At times you bring it like no other.

But WTF? You just went full Finals Bron on this one.

[3ball]

Yeah, OP needs to be permabanned right away. Classless piece of shit, using MJ's father's murder as a tool to push his own stupid agenda. ****ing grow up, asshole.
you got me here bud.. i apologize if i offended you.. i just wanted to drive the point home that jordan could have broken russell's record of 8 rings in a row if his dad hadn't been murdered.

that's the main reason jordan retired - his dad's murder.

so you're right, and i'll get back to the point - who cares about the luxury of whether jordan can play with MORE TALENT in kobe, wade, or Magic - the fact is that kareem and shaq can't win with LESS talent in Pippen.

[ArbitraryWater]

3ball.... At times you bring it like no other.

But WTF? You just went full Finals Bron on this one.

Is this your way of trying to communicate with 3ball?

It's like his mating call, he understands now

[navy]

you got me here bud.. i apologize if i offended you.. i just wanted to drive the point home that jordan could have broken russell's record of 8 rings in a row if his dad hadn't been murdered.

that's the main reason jordan retired - his dad's murder.

so you're right, and i'll get back to the point - who cares about the luxury of whether jordan can play with MORE TALENT in kobe, wade, or Magic - the fact is that kareem and shaq can't win with LESS talent in Pippen.
Jordan played the 1995 playoffs. No excuses. :no:

[tpols]

Pippen > Durant

As said by 3ball. :confusedshrug:
:oldlol:

Seriously..you ask 3ball about 90s perimeter talent and pippen is a God..the second best mentioned player on his list. Now when talking mjs help he sucks and is worse than every other stars help.

[SugarHill]

Is this your way of trying to communicate with 3ball?

It's like his mating call, he understands now
:roll:

[J Shuttlesworth]

Look at 3ball uniting MJ fans, LeBron fans, Kobe fans, hell everyone on ISH hates this mother****er collectively :applause:

[3ball]

:oldlol:

Seriously..you ask 3ball about 90s perimeter talent and pippen is a God..the second best mentioned player on his list. Now when talking mjs help he sucks and is worse than every other stars help.


i revised that list a while ago and put a lot of guys over pippen:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10957335&postcount=145

[3ball]

3ball.... At times you bring it like no other.

But WTF? You just went full Finals Bron on this one.
specifically, what part?

kareem and shaq needed far better supporting casts to win.

do you think Shaq have won with Pippen replacing 2006 Wade or prime Kobe?

do you think Kareem could have won if Pippen replaced Magic?

of course not. Just one reason of many how we know Jordan was better than those guys.

i don't see what's so crazy about that.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Look at 3ball uniting MJ fans, LeBron fans, Kobe fans, hell everyone on ISH hates this mother****er collectively :applause:
True. Your atypical troll like Rocketsgreatness is just goofy. A lovable retarded little brother. 3ball is like an autistic, socially awkward cousin you never want to be around. lol.

[Hey Yo]

specifically, what part?

kareem and shaq needed far better supporting casts to win.

do you think Shaq have won with Pippen replacing 2006 Wade or prime Kobe?

do you think Kareem could have won if Pippen replaced Magic?

of course not. Just one reason of many how we know Jordan was better than those guys.

i don't see what's so crazy about that.
:oldlol: You keep using Kareem as an example when he was 32yrs old.

[Megabox!]

This thread is hilarious.

What next "replace MJ with Pete Myers and the Bulls still make the playoffs and 2nd round??????"

oh wait.....
:yaohappy:

[3ball]

:yaohappy:
i don't think i got one serious response in the entire thread.

i didn't expect any.

it's impossible to argue that jordan's supporting cast can match kareem or shaq's.

[Micku]

i don't think i got one serious response in the entire thread.

i didn't expect any.

it's impossible to argue that jordan's supporting cast can match kareem or shaq's.

The Bulls had a better team without MJ than w/o Shaq with the Lakers during 00-04 I would say. Point in case when the Bulls had 55 wins w/o MJ.

Granted, they weren't always that way. Pippen and Grant had to mold into their own before they could do stuff like that. They weren't ready until 92 maybe? Grant and Pippen improved a bunch. What was the Lakers record without Shaq? According to this piece:



Lakers' record since 1996-97 with and without Shaquille O'Neal and Kobe Bryant:

Both play...311-119 .723

Neither play...1-2 .333

With Bryant, no O'Neal...53-45 .541

With O'Neal, no Bryant...36-8 .818


http://articles.latimes.com/2004/jan/11/sports/sp-plaschke11

It's probably not that fair since Kobe didn't come to his own until 01, but the Lakers did have four all stars in the late 90s.

And again, the season w/o MJ in 94 they were .671. In 95, they were .515 with a 34-32 record without MJ. MJ came back and they got better.

Anyway, you could have better talent but that doesn't make you a better team. The late 90s Lakers had more talent than the Jazz, but they kept getting swept. They got swept by the Spurs too.

[lilteapot]

i don't think i got one serious response in the entire thread.

i didn't expect any.

it's impossible to argue that jordan's supporting cast can match kareem or shaq's.
insensitive troll's don't deserve serious responses.

[Richesly]

I have 5 red neg bars, while OP has 4 green ones.

Something fishy is going on. Guy must have 6-7 other accounts. All his posts are cringeworthy. ALL OF THEM.

[Roundball_Rock]

Is the OP really a MJ stan or a parody account of MJ stans?

[24-Inch_Chrome]

Giving Jordan fans a bad name, you're like MJ's version of hawkfan.

[funnystuff]

let me explain it slowly to you kindergartners.

bill russell won 8 championships in a row, which is a record.

jordan won 6 of 8 in the 90's with a break in between because he retired over his father's death.

if his father wasn't unluckily murdered, Jordan would've had a chance to break Russell's record of 8 in a row.

does that makes sense, or do you need me to go slower?
I bet you wish it was your father that was murdered over Jordans.

[dankok8]

Where is the proof?

The premise of OP's argument is that a prime Kareem and Shaq couldn't win 6 titles with Pippen as a #2 guy. And we know this how?

As for Kareem and Magic, Kareem played his first postseason with Magic at 33 years of age. How many titles would a 33+ years old Jordan win with Magic? Prime Jordan and prime Magic could obviously win more than 5 but prime Kareem with prime Magic could obviously win more as well.

[Kblaze8855]

Laughable contents of this topic aside....

You might deserve a brief ban just for misapplication of the word "proof".

[Roundball_Rock]

It's probably not that fair since Kobe didn't come to his own until 01, but the Lakers did have four all stars in the late 90s.

It is fair because that trend persisted even when Kobe did come into his own. Interestingly, the same trend existed in Miami where Miami did fine with Shaq, without Wade but was a 0.500 team with Wade, without Shaq from 2005-2007. Shaq's impact goes beyond raw stats. The 2000's Lakers and 2005-2007 Heat were consistently 0.500 squads without him--but they did fine with Shaq, without Kobe/Wade so it was not just about being "two deep." With Shaq we have the advantage of having a large sample across several years to assess because he would frequently miss 10-15 games a year.


Granted, they weren't always that way. Pippen and Grant had to mold into their own before they could do stuff like that. They weren't ready until 92 maybe?

They were at a high level by the time Chicago started winning. We saw them without MJ--with a D-leaguer at SG (imagine that team with a NBA-caliber starting SG like Hornacek--who Krause could have gotten midseason had he parted with a pick that eventually became Dickey Simpkins). The constant claim that MJ had little help is demonstrably false as they were contenders without him despite a massive handicap at SG, due to MJ's October retirement.

Also, we saw prime Kareem hurt twice in the 70's. His teams went 3-14 and 7-13 during those games. In the 3-14 instance KAJ was the difference between a 44-45 win pace and a 14-15 win pace. Yet we are hearing about how much help he had? :roll: He did not get Magic until he was 32--and only had him during his final prime year. Jordan hit his prime along with Pippen.

It can be argued Jordan did more with more but it is absurd to claim he had less help, relative to his era, than most other legends. His team without him, with a scrub in his place was on par or better than the teams of other superstars of his era. They were comparable to the Rockets, Knicks, Suns, Spurs, Jazz and a cut above the Magic and Blazers. This is not speculation. This is historical fact.

[Practice?]

Let's say Jordan and Shaq swapped sidekicks.

How many rings does Shaq win if he has Pippen instead of Kobe?... and does Shaq win in 2006 with Pippen instead of Wade?

Now let's look at Kareem - How many rings does Kareem win with Pippen instead of Magic?

This alone means Jordan > Kareem and Shaq... Period.

And then of course we can look at it from Jordan's point of view - how much better would Jordan have done if he played with Magic Johnson, 2006 Wade, or prime Kobe, instead of Pippen?

And see that's the problem - even if Jordan had played with Magic Johnson instead of Pippen, it's still hard to imagine Jordan being better off than he already was, because he already could have broken Bill Russell's record for championships in a row (8) if his dad hadn't gotten murdered.
.

Shaq still gets his 3 most important ones.

Oh, and Duncan does really well with Pippen as his sidekick. The defense of that team :bowdown: