Sonics Defense on Jordan in the 1996 Finals

[3ball]

Jordan's stats ended up being 27.3 PPG on 42% shooting, which is the worst-scoring playoff series that he ever had.

But look at a couple minutes from this video showing the Sonics defense on Jordan. Look how tight, physical and FRANTIC the defense is. Look how little room he has to operate - no freedom of movement at all.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WpkXlrJxtw

Compare that to how today's spaced out, non-physical defenses look - THE FREEDOM OF MOVEMENT IS LIKE NIGHT AND DAY.

How can anyone say it's harder to score today, when back then there was no spacing and players could be so physical?
.

[J Shuttlesworth]

SHUT THE **** UP 3ball

you're the new shady. can't you make an official 3ball thread in the chicago bulls forum and keep all your garbage in there?

[3ball]

the truth hurts and makes some people mad.

ur hurt and mad as hell.... :kobe:

i have no sympathy for you.

[scandisk_]

SHUT THE **** UP 3ball

you're the new shady. can't you make an official 3ball thread in the chicago bulls forum and keep all your garbage in there?


hey let me say it too

SHUT THE F*CK UP 3BALL

dude won't friggin stop :facepalm

[Cocaine80s]

SHUT THE F*CK UP 3BALL

[3ball]

SHUT THE F*CK UP 3BALL


no.

you guys are a bunch of lame ******s to me


http://tuesdayswithhorry.files.wordpress.com/2014/06/lebronkawhi.gif


look at your boy against spacing and no physicality - still scared as shit

:roll:

[3ball]

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/4d00153a443c57cbfbf7984d8ab55247.gif


**** you baby.. **** youuuuuu


how's that fellas

[Quickening]

All I see is some guy getting superstar calls because they're being as rough with him as he is with them... he reminded me of past his prime Kobe, chucking up shots at a chitty clip.

[raiderfan19]

Could have been called for an offensive foul on virtually every post up

[dunksby]

Sonics denfeded him well, can't you give credit to the opponent for once? It's not like the Bulls lost the series anyway. He put up 27PPG on 21FGA and 11FTA which is not MJ like.

[3ball]

Sonics denfeded him well, can't you give credit to the opponent for once? It's not like the Bulls lost the series anyway. He put up 27PPG on 21FGA and 11FTA which is not MJ like.


i'm giving the Sonics credit - they were the 2nd-ranked defense in the league.

but the defense looked like this for the Bad Boys, Pat Riley's Knicks and other teams too - the defense would look like this for any good, smart defense back then (pretty much any defense in the top 5). All teams had the opportunity to play this kind of help defense and paint defense due to the lack of spacing and allowance of physicality.

otoh, in today's game, defenses don't benefit from lack of spacing like they used to, and they can't play physical anymore either, which is why today's defense doesn't look anything like the OP vid.

[Dragic4Life]

Just stop.

You just have to deal with Lebron surpassing MJ, sooner or later.

[Lebronxrings]

weakass era.

[Beastmode88]

Just stop.

You just have to deal with Lebron surpassing MJ, sooner or later.

First lebron has to get a winning record in the finals to be considered top 5.

[AnaheimLakers24]

Op got bran stans so mad right now

[Blue&Orange]

All I see is some guy getting superstar calls because they're being as rough with him as he is with them... he reminded me of past his prime Kobe, chucking up shots at a chitty clip.
Yes being elbowed in the neck twice while fighting for position for the rebound = superstar call.

Lebrona would have flopped to the ground and the game would have been stopped 5 minutes.

[jlip]

Op got bran stans so mad right now

OP has MJ stans mad, which is ridiculous given this is supposedly a thread praising MJ.

[Asukal]

MJ is my favorite but....

SHUT THE F*CK UP 3BALL

:oldlol:

[Quickening]

Yes being elbowed in the neck twice while fighting for position for the rebound = superstar call.

Lebrona would have flopped to the ground and the game would have been stopped 5 minutes.

Lebron would have been skittling those bitches... someones Lebron size and power in an era where superstars can shove people out the way :lol :rockon:

[nba_55]

SHUT THE **** UP 3 BALL

[24-Inch_Chrome]

SHUT THE **** UP 3BALL

[Megabox!]

no.

you guys are a bunch of lame ******s to me


http://tuesdayswithhorry.files.wordpress.com/2014/06/lebronkawhi.gif


look at your boy against spacing and no physicality - still scared as shit

:roll:
But they won that series tho :confusedshrug:

[dankok8]

There is a difference between a physical defense and an effective defense. If the Bad Boy Pistons and 1996 Sonics were the GOAT defensive teams then why did they allow many more points per possessions than say the 2008 Celtics?

Jordan faced some great defenses but definitely not greater than the best defenses of today. The style of play has changed and of course some rules balanced the others in terms of helping the defense (ex. zone defenses helped vs. no perimeter hand-checking hurt).

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Def Ratings of Finals Opponents

04 Pistons 95.4
01 76ers 98.9
08 Celtics 98.9
02 Nets 99.5
09 Magic 101.9
96 Sonics 102.1
00 Pacers 103.6
10 Celtics 103.8
97 Jazz 104.0
92 Blazers 104.2
91 Lakers 105.0
98 Jazz 105.4
93 Suns 106.7

DAT 90S DEFENSE THO :oldlol:

[navy]

Def Ratings of Finals Opponents

04 Pistons 95.4
01 76ers 98.9
08 Celtics 98.9
02 Nets 99.5
09 Magic 101.9
96 Sonics 102.1
00 Pacers 103.6
10 Celtics 103.8
97 Jazz 104.0
92 Blazers 104.2
91 Lakers 105.0
98 Jazz 105.4
93 Suns 106.7

DAT 90S DEFENSE THO :oldlol:
:oldlol:

[Dragic4Life]

Def Ratings of Finals Opponents

04 Pistons 95.4
01 76ers 98.9
08 Celtics 98.9
02 Nets 99.5
09 Magic 101.9
96 Sonics 102.1
00 Pacers 103.6
10 Celtics 103.8
97 Jazz 104.0
92 Blazers 104.2
91 Lakers 105.0
98 Jazz 105.4
93 Suns 106.7

DAT 90S DEFENSE THO :oldlol:
:oldlol:

[Roundball_Rock]

Def Ratings of Finals Opponents

04 Pistons 95.4
01 76ers 98.9
08 Celtics 98.9
02 Nets 99.5
09 Magic 101.9
96 Sonics 102.1
00 Pacers 103.6
10 Celtics 103.8
97 Jazz 104.0
92 Blazers 104.2
91 Lakers 105.0
98 Jazz 105.4
93 Suns 106.7

DAT 90S DEFENSE THO :oldlol:

They fouled hard doe! :bowdown:

:lol

[juju151111]

Def Ratings of Finals Opponents

04 Pistons 95.4
01 76ers 98.9
08 Celtics 98.9
02 Nets 99.5
09 Magic 101.9
96 Sonics 102.1
00 Pacers 103.6
10 Celtics 103.8
97 Jazz 104.0
92 Blazers 104.2
91 Lakers 105.0
98 Jazz 105.4
93 Suns 106.7

DAT 90S DEFENSE THO :oldlol:
6>5 and 6FMVP>2FMVP Shaq best player from 00-02.

[OldSchoolBBall]

There is a difference between a physical defense and an effective defense. If the Bad Boy Pistons and 1996 Sonics were the GOAT defensive teams then why did they allow many more points per possessions than say the 2008 Celtics?


Because they're not facing the same teams (i.e., not facing the same caliber of offenses). If you think the '08 Celts or any team would have the same defensive stats if they were transported to, say, 1988, you're crazy.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Because they're not facing the same teams (i.e., not facing the same caliber of offenses). If you think the '08 Celts or any team would have the same defensive stats if they were transported to, say, 1988, you're crazy.

The 08 Celtics are not going to have the same defensive stats in the offensively inflated era of basketball the same way the players from the offensively inflated era of basketball are not going to have the same inflated offensive stats in 2008 against the Celtics. :confusedshrug:

[Quickening]

The 08 Celtics are not going to have the same defensive stats in the offensively inflated era of basketball the same way the players from the offensively inflated era of basketball are not going to have the same inflated offensive stats in 2008 against the Celtics. :confusedshrug:

This... people only like to highlight the pros when talking about certain eras. Take 10 percent off Jordans PPG if you put him in this era

[ralph_i_el]

SHUT THE F*CK UP 3BALL

^This

[Dro]

What I notice and something else that separates MJ from everybody else is the effort he puts into getting position when he doesn't have the ball. NOBODY tries to get that ball like MJ does...He spends so much energy fighting Payton and others for position then when he gets it, he still has the energy to immediately go into a fadeaway from any position is pretty ridiculous.

[Magic 32]

Def Ratings of Finals Opponents

04 Pistons 95.4
01 76ers 98.9
08 Celtics 98.9
02 Nets 99.5
09 Magic 101.9
96 Sonics 102.1
00 Pacers 103.6
10 Celtics 103.8
97 Jazz 104.0
92 Blazers 104.2
91 Lakers 105.0
98 Jazz 105.4
93 Suns 106.7

DAT 90S DEFENSE THO :oldlol:

If the 2002 Nets is top 5...in anything, you know a list is useless.

[Prometheus]

I thoroughly agree with 3ball on this topic and I still just want him to shut the f*ck up.

[Hey Yo]

no.

you guys are a bunch of lame ******s to me


http://tuesdayswithhorry.files.wordpress.com/2014/06/lebronkawhi.gif


look at your boy against spacing and no physicality - still scared as shit

:roll:
Posting a gif from the series where Heat won B2B titles and LeBron's 2nd FMVP isn't helping your argument.

[jstern]

That type of defense creates such a nice and entertaining battle, but unfortunately the casual fan likes to see high scoring game, and "we" have to cater to them. With today's rules there would have been so much flopping going around while the players fought for rebounds. Fighting for your points is so much more satisfying than shooting a bunch of 3s.

[3ball]

Def Ratings of Finals Opponents

04 Pistons 95.4
01 76ers 98.9
08 Celtics 98.9
02 Nets 99.5
09 Magic 101.9
96 Sonics 102.1
00 Pacers 103.6
10 Celtics 103.8
97 Jazz 104.0
92 Blazers 104.2
91 Lakers 105.0
98 Jazz 105.4
93 Suns 106.7

DAT 90S DEFENSE THO :oldlol:
you just don't understand the game that's all.

higher offensive rebounding and FT rates increase at team's ORtg in the calculation.

Two-pointers have a higher offensive rebounding and FT rate than 3-pointers, so the higher proportion of two-pointers taken in previous eras caused Team ORtg's (and therefore Opponent DRtg) to be higher than today.

On the flipside, today's game takes far more 3-pointers, which have a lower offensive rebounding and FT rate, and therefore decrease Team ORtg and Opponent DRtg.

[dankok8]

you just don't understand the game that's all.

higher offensive rebounding and FT rates increase at team's ORtg in the calculation.

Two-pointers have a higher offensive rebounding and FT rate than 3-pointers, so the higher proportion of two-pointers taken in previous eras caused Team ORtg's (and therefore Opponent DRtg) to be higher than today.

On the flipside, today's game takes far more 3-pointers, which have a lower offensive rebounding and FT rate, and therefore decrease Team ORtg and Opponent DRtg.

Higher offensive rebound rate for two-pointers? Really? 3pt shots generally bounce off farther from the rim and create long rebounds. They generally increase the chance for offensive rebounding.

As for free throw rate, I'm sure that the extra free throws from two-pointers are easily balanced out by the fact that three point shots are worth THREE POINTS or 50% more.

Sorry don't buy your argument.

[fpliii]

Higher offensive rebound rate for two-pointers? Really? 3pt shots generally bounce off farther from the rim and create long rebounds. They generally increase the chance for offensive rebounding.
Not that I disagree, but just wanted to chime in here. That is true for jumpers (2s vs 3s), though at or close to the rim, there's a good chance of an offensive rebound as well. Interesting study by Kirk Goldsberry (and it's a huge sample size of 26,000 shots, so the conclusions are undeniable):

[QUOTE]I will provide much more detail later, but here are 4 main takeaways:
1. Rebounds go to

[GimmeThat]

Coincide with the amount of one and done triggered by the massive growth in basketball related sports marketing.

The Nba had implemented changes to help pro-long and protect the professionals. In contrast to the athletes.

[3ball]

Not that I disagree, but just wanted to chime in here. That is true for jumpers (2s vs 3s), though at or close to the rim, there's a good chance of an offensive rebound as well. Interesting study by Kirk Goldsberry (and it's a huge sample size of 26,000 shots, so the conclusions are undeniable):



source: http://courtvisionanalytics.com/where-do-rebounds-go/
in reality, what difference does it make?

it's a fact that offensive rebounding and FT rates were higher in previous eras, which caused ORtg and DRtg to be higher as well - whether the higher offensive rebounding and FT rate is due to the higher proportion of two pointers or not is irrelevant. we know offensive rebounding and FT rates were higher, and that's all we need to explain why ORtg and DRtg was higher in previous eras.

that being said, the higher offensive rebounding and free throw rate WAS DUE to the higher proportion of two-pointers taken - after all, what ELSE could it be?

And given Flpiii's data showing how all shots close to the rim have a significantly higher offensive rebounding rate (which impacts the weighted average), it pretty much confirms what i've been saying - the higher proportion of two-pointers taken in previous eras had higher offensive rebounding and FT rates, which increased ORtg and DRtg.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

you just don't understand the game that's all.

higher offensive rebounding and FT rates increase at team's ORtg in the calculation.

Two-pointers have a higher offensive rebounding and FT rate than 3-pointers, so the higher proportion of two-pointers taken in previous eras caused Team ORtg's (and therefore Opponent DRtg) to be higher than today.

On the flipside, today's game takes far more 3-pointers, which have a lower offensive rebounding and FT rate, and therefore decrease Team ORtg and Opponent DRtg.

:biggums:

This is gibberish. Google "correlation does not imply causation" and try again.

[OldSchoolBBall]

This... people only like to highlight the pros when talking about certain eras. Take 10 percent off Jordans PPG if you put him in this era

Inferior scorer like Wade, Lebron, and Kobe have averaged 30-35 ppg in this era, yet Jordan wouldn't average 32-35 ppg just like he did back then? The fvck outta here with that noise. :roll:

[3ball]

Inferior scorer like Wade, Lebron, and Kobe have averaged 30-35 ppg in this era, yet Jordan wouldn't average 32-35 ppg just like he did back then? The fvck outta here with that noise. :roll:
not only that, but today's pace is 93.8, which is between 6% slower and 5% FASTER than the Bulls played during Jordan's career:


Bulls Pace:

1985: 99.4.... 6% faster
1986: 99.7.... 6%
1987: 95.8.... 2%
1988: 95.5.... 2%
1989: 97.0.... 4%
1990: 96.7.... 4%
1991: 95.6.... 2%
1992: 95.4.... 2%
1993: 92.5.... (1%) lower
1995: 92.0.... (2%)
1996: 91.1.... (3%)
1997: 90.0.... (4%)
1998: 89.0.... (5%)


Jordan 3-peated at a faster pace than today's game, and then again at a slower pace than today's game.

[3ball]

.
Here's Jordan actually playing WITH spacing, just like today - a rare possession where the setup is the same as today - a bunch of floor-spreaders camped behind the line for a boring drive-and-kick:


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/60a2a99d72750956a596cba68138e773.gif




But normally, teams didn't use today's spacing strategy and defenders were in much closer proximity - accordingly, players had to make a decision and get their shot off much quicker:


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/95d6435d3c57f398f844375a43962b54.gif





Or simply take a much tougher shot than guys today are required to take:


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/e376b067b766d37a2b60958ae7df4dc9.gif


Interestingly, if the Bulls would have used the modern spacing strategy seen in the first GIF, Jordan would have had an easy time of it against Payton, or ANY defender.

However, while spacing would have made it easier for Jordan to get off, the easier nature of the game means it would have required a lower skill level, which would have been a real travesty - shots like the one immediately above would be unecessary, and accordingly, less frequent.

[OldSchoolBBall]

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/e376b067b766d37a2b60958ae7df4dc9.gif


This is one of my favorite Jordan jumpshots. Just an absurd shot. If you see it in full speed (the GIF is slowed down a bit), it's an even more amazing sequence.

[KobesFinger]

If the 96 Sonics and 08 Celtics played against each other (one series each using either teams' rules from their respective time), who would win? Who was the better defensive team?

[Quickening]

If the 96 Sonics and 08 Celtics played against each other (one series each using either teams' rules from their respective time), who would win? Who was the better defensive team?

08 Celtics would destroy them... there defensive strategies are far superior going off the numbers

[3ball]

08 Celtics would destroy them... there defensive strategies are far superior going off the numbers
2008 boston defended a higher proportion of 3-pointers, which meant they were defending teams that got a LOWER number of offensive rebounds and FT's - the lower number of offensive rebounds and FT's obtained by the other team lowered that team's calculation of ORtg and boston's corresponding DRtg (they're the same number).

otoh, previous eras defended teams that got many more offensive rebounds and FTs from shooting a much higher proportion of two-pointers - the higher number of offensive rebounds and FTs related to shooting more two's increases ORtg and Opponent DRtg in the calculation.

hope that makes sense.

[fpliii]

2008 boston defended a higher proportion of 3-pointers, which meant they were defending teams that got a LOWER number of offensive rebounds and FT's - the lower number of offensive rebounds and FT's obtained by the other team lowered that team's calculation of ORtg and boston's corresponding DRtg (they're the same number).

otoh, previous eras defended teams that got many more offensive rebounds and FTs from shooting a much higher proportion of two-pointers - the higher number of offensive rebounds and FTs related to shooting more two's increases ORtg and Opponent DRtg in the calculation.

hope that makes sense.

Poss

Possessions (available since the 1973-74 season in the NBA); the formula for teams is 0.5 * ((Tm FGA + 0.4 * Tm FTA - 1.07 * (Tm ORB / (Tm ORB + Opp DRB)) * (Tm FGA - Tm FG) + Tm TOV) + (Opp FGA + 0.4 * Opp FTA - 1.07 * (Opp ORB / (Opp ORB + Tm DRB)) * (Opp FGA - Opp FG) + Opp TOV)). This formula estimates possessions based on both the team's statistics and their opponent's statistics, then averages them to provide a more stable estimate. Please see the article Calculating Individual Offensive and Defensive Ratings for more information.

source: http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/glossary.html

I'm not sure what you're talking about here, but note that offensive rebounds are a negative factor (notice the minus sign in front of terms involving ORB) in calculating possessions, while free throw attempts are a positive factor (notice the plus sign in front of terms involving FTA). That is to say, as offensive rebounds increase, the number of possessions decreases (meaning higher ORtg/DRtg), and as free throws decrease, the number of possessions increases (meaning higher ORtg/DRtg).

EDIT: Again, no need to respond, not looking for a dragged out back-and-forth. Just had to correct a misconception.

[gts]

3ball has to be a gimmick.. he has too much green considering the crap he posts.. has to be repping himself with another account

[3ball]

source: http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/glossary.html

I'm not sure what you're talking about here, but note that offensive rebounds are a negative factor (notice the minus sign in front of terms involving ORB) in calculating possessions, while free throw attempts are a positive factor (notice the plus sign in front of terms involving FTA). That is to say, as offensive rebounds increase, the number of possessions decreases (meaning higher ORtg/DRtg), and as free throws decrease, the number of possessions increases (meaning higher ORtg/DRtg).

EDIT: Again, no need to respond, not looking for a dragged out back-and-forth. Just had to correct a misconception.
great, so higher offensive rebounds increases ORtg and DRtg, just like i said.

regarding the FT rates being the opposite of what i said, i think you're mistaken here - higher FT rates would definitely increase ORtg.

[sekachu]

Def Ratings of Finals Opponents

04 Pistons 95.4
01 76ers 98.9
08 Celtics 98.9
02 Nets 99.5
09 Magic 101.9
96 Sonics 102.1
00 Pacers 103.6
10 Celtics 103.8
97 Jazz 104.0
92 Blazers 104.2
91 Lakers 105.0
98 Jazz 105.4
93 Suns 106.7

DAT 90S DEFENSE THO :oldlol:


That is the regular season def rating right? What about their playoff def rating?