Why exactly is James Harden so much higher than LeBron in the MVP race?

[RoundMoundOfReb]

I get why Curry is higher - 37-8, better player than Harden in a vacuum etc..

But why Harden?

Rockets: 33-15
Cavs with LeBron: 28-12
(without): 2-8

Plus, LeBron is flat out better than Harden as a player. I don't see it.

MVP Race:

1) Curry
2) LeBron
3) Harden
4) Davis

[Im so nba'd out]

He is carrying a team full of rejects to the playoffs in the west by himself :bowdown:

[Droid101]

Rockets: 33-15
Cavs with LeBron: 28-12
(without): 2-8

Why does LeBron get rewarded for missing games?

What if Harden missed 10 games and the Rockets went 0-10 losing by 20 PPG?

Let's not use "missed games" as anything useful, k?

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Why does LeBron get rewarded for missing games?

What if Harden missed 10 games and the Rockets went 0-10 losing by 20 PPG?

Let's not use "missed games" as anything useful, k?

You seriously don't think that would help his case?

Rockets go 52-30 with Harden playing all 82

vs

Rockets go 52-30 with Harden playing 72 and the scenario you presented occurring.

Which is the more MVP deserving year?

[StephHamann]

west>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>east

[24-Inch_Chrome]

A 27.6/5.6/6.8 line is really pretty? I'm not a fan of Harden, 9 FTAs/game is ridiculous, especially considering how often he draws imaginary fouls.

If the Cavs start moving up the standings while the Rockets stagnate I'd expect the buzz to shift towards LeBron.

[Droid101]

You seriously don't think that would help his case?

Rockets go 52-30 with Harden playing all 82

vs

Rockets go 52-30 with Harden playing 72 and the scenario you presented occurring.

Which is the more MVP deserving year?
Why do we reward a player who missed games? I'd rather give it to the guy who played about as well, but played all 82 games.

[J Shuttlesworth]

Yeah honestly, Harden is doing more with less right now, and I'm a huge LBJ fan obviously. He's gotten some huge wins w/ Dwight injured too

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Why do we reward a player who missed games? I'd rather give it to the guy who played about as well, but played all 82 games.

So you wouldn't vote for the 2nd scenario i presented over the first?

[RoundMoundOfReb]

A 27.6/5.6/6.8 line is really pretty? I'm not a fan of Harden, 9 FTAs/game is ridiculous, especially considering how often he draws imaginary fouls.

If the Cavs start moving up the standings while the Rockets stagnate I'd expect the buzz to shift towards LeBron.

I'm obviously not saying what Harden is doing isn't impressive - I got him #3. But LeBron's line is probably even better than Harden's. It's just that we have skewed expectations of him.

[imdaman99]

Why do we reward a player who missed games? I'd rather give it to the guy who played about as well, but played all 82 games.
This.

True MVPs don't take in-season vacations. Bran has won MVPs before, not like he needs another.

[UK2K]

A 27.6/5.6/6.8 line is really pretty? I'm not a fan of Harden, 9 FTAs/game is ridiculous, especially considering how often he draws imaginary fouls.

If the Cavs start moving up the standings while the Rockets stagnate I'd expect the buzz to shift towards LeBron.
Harden averages 8.9 FTA

Lebron averages 8.4

Get out of here with the free throw excuse:lol

[UK2K]

Yeah honestly, Harden is doing more with less right now, and I'm a huge LBJ fan obviously. He's gotten some huge wins w/ Dwight injured too
I swear harden is better when Dwight is injured.

[24-Inch_Chrome]

I'm obviously not saying what Harden is doing isn't impressive - I got him #3. But LeBron's line is probably even better than Harden's. It's just that we have skewed expectations of him.

Harden's line: 27.6/5.6/6.8 on .452/.384/.884

James's line: 26.2/5.5/7.4 on .490/.351/.731

Their lines are close but James's is lower than it should be as he spent a chunk of the season playing hurt. Personally I'd still take LeBron over Harden but so far this season their overall statistical performance has been very similar. One also has to consider that LeBron has to adjust to a new team in Cleveland while Harden is in his third season with Houston.

[24-Inch_Chrome]

Harden averages 8.9 FTA

Lebron averages 8.4

Get out of here with the free throw excuse:lol

It wasn't intended as an excuse. I was just saying that I personally don't like him for it as too many of those fouls are imaginary.

[Jlamb47]

Not only West >>>>>>> East but Harden played more games and won more games without Houstons 2nd best player. Lebron missed 10 and Harden having a better record in a harder conference with much less talent and without Howard. IMO Harden>Curry in MVP race

[UK2K]

It wasn't intended as an excuse. I was just saying that I personally don't like him for it as too many of those fouls are imaginary.
If you watch a game, people complain about the amount of fouls he draws, but there's no denying he does get fouled a lot.

I'm not a big fan of him shooting 18 FTs but rarely do I see him get a foul call that's not actually a foul.

It is what it is I guess.

[24-Inch_Chrome]

If you watch a game, people complain about the amount of fouls he draws, but there's no denying he does get fouled a lot.

I'm not a big fan of him shooting 18 FTs but rarely do I see him get a foul call that's not actually a foul.

It is what it is I guess.

I watch as much as I can, it's difficult when it isn't nationally televised.

I'll concede that he takes a lot of fouls but from what I've seen (which I'll admit is limited) there's also a healthy number of phantom fouls, too many for my tastes.

[UK2K]

Harden's line: 27.6/5.6/6.8 on .452/.384/.884

James's line: 26.2/5.5/7.4 on .490/.351/.731

Their lines are close but James's is lower than it should be as he spent a chunk of the season playing hurt. Personally I'd still take LeBron over Harden but so far this season their overall statistical performance has been very similar. One also has to consider that LeBron has to adjust to a new team in Cleveland while Harden is in his third season with Houston.

And Houston had four new starters playing the first month of the season (Bev, Jones, Dwight all out, Ariza playing his first season).

The first month of the season was a rough one for Harden, but from Dec 1 til now:

Harden: 28.2, 6.9, 5.6, 2.1 on 48/42/88

Lebron: 27.0, 7.5, 5.3, 1.6 on 50/34/71

Fact is, if the season ended right now, Harden wins because his team has a better record, with worse players, in a much tougher conference.

[24-Inch_Chrome]

And Houston had four new starters playing the first month of the season (Bev, Jones, Dwight all out, Ariza playing his first season).

The first month of the season was a rough one for Harden, but from Dec 1 til now:

Harden: 28.2, 6.9, 5.6, 2.1 on 48/42/88

Lebron: 27.0, 7.5, 5.3, 1.6 on 50/34/71

Fact is, if the season ended right now, Harden wins because his team has a better record, with worse players, in a much tougher conference.

It's true that Houston had to deal with injuries but I'm not sure if that equates to adapting to a new system, especially when it involves incorporating several star players.

Harden has absolutely been on a tear, particularly with his efficiency...but I don't know if comparing them from Dec 1 is fair if we're trying to cut out a shaky start. LeBron's performance since returning from injury has been closer to what everyone expected from him for the season, I'd be curious to see how his line since returning stacks up against Harden's from Dec 1?

You're right on that last point though, if LeBron wants to win the MVP this season there's still work to be done.

[Practice?]

You seriously don't think that would help his case?

Rockets go 52-30 with Harden playing all 82

vs

Rockets go 52-30 with Harden playing 72 and the scenario you presented occurring.

Which is the more MVP deserving year?

Right, but that isn't how things work. Rockets going 52-30 with Harden playing all 82 is better than Rockets going 42-40 with Harden playing 72. LeBron sitting out is not valuable to the Cavs because it hurts them. If what he does hurts them, then it also hurts his MVP case.

[G0ATbe]

He plays out west, on a less stacked team, while putting up better stats, with a much better team record...whats so hard to grasp?:lol

LeBald isn't even the 1st or 2nd best player on his own team and there's at least 3 players on his team with a better case for MVP.

[UK2K]

It's true that Houston had to deal with injuries but I'm not sure if that equates to adapting to a new system, especially when it involves incorporating several star players.

Harden has absolutely been on a tear, particularly with his efficiency...but I don't know if comparing them from Dec 1 is fair if we're trying to cut out a shaky start. LeBron's performance since returning from injury has been closer to what everyone expected from him for the season, I'd be curious to see how his line since returning stacks up against Harden's from Dec 1?

You're right on that last point though, if LeBron wants to win the MVP this season there's still work to be done.
28.2, 6.9, 5.9, 2.1 on 49/30/71

Almost identical as post December Harden. Literally. Except FG%

[24-Inch_Chrome]

28.2, 6.9, 5.9, 2.1 on 49/30/71

Almost identical as post December Harden. Literally. Except FG%

Fair point, thanks for the stats.

We'll just have to see how the rest of the season plays out.

[KungFuJoe]

I'm no fan of Harden but fck Bran and his stacked teams. No way he deserves it over Harden even if Harden only plays on one side of the court. Rockets look awful when he's off the court. He bails them out of so many blown offensive plays McHale should be giving him half his paycheck.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

I'm no fan of Harden but fck Bran and his stacked teams. No way he deserves it over Harden even if Harden only plays on one side of the court. Rockets look awful when he's off the court. He bails them out of so many blown offensive plays McHale should be giving him half his paycheck.
Lin sucks

[coin24]

Because harden is the rockets number one option on offense.
Bran has kyrie aka batman as the number one option..

LeBald is more of a second tier pippen type

[DMAVS41]

I'm obviously not saying what Harden is doing isn't impressive - I got him #3. But LeBron's line is probably even better than Harden's. It's just that we have skewed expectations of him.

I think what Harden has done to date is more impressive. I agree that the gap is closing, but Harden has his team as the 3rd see in the West right now.

He's dealt with a team with injuries and he's also putting up:

27/7/6 61% TS and playing improved defense.

I mean...those numbers absolutely blow MVP Rose in 11 out of the Water. And it's not like Lebron is dominating or anything. Yea, he is for the last 12 games or so, but that's not enough.

I think it could get really interesting if the Cavs finish with the 2 seed and Harden/Curry fall off a bit.

[UK2K]

I think what Harden has done to date is more impressive. I agree that the gap is closing, but Harden has his team as the 3rd see in the West right now.

He's dealt with a team with injuries and he's also putting up:

27/7/6 61% TS and playing improved defense.

I mean...those numbers absolutely blow MVP Rose in 11 out of the Water. And it's not like Lebron is dominating or anything. Yea, he is for the last 12 games or so, but that's not enough.

I think it could get really interesting if the Cavs finish with the 2 seed and Harden/Curry fall off a bit.

Even with Lebron 'dominating', his stats are still similar to the stats harden has put up over the last two months.

[G-train]

I get why Curry is higher - 37-8, better player than Harden in a vacuum etc..

But why Harden?



I'd say because MVP is awarded on the entire season, not on last 3 weeks.

[JebronLames]

The league is still protecting MJ.

[stephanieg]

Harden winning the MVP might be worse than Nash and AI, especially if he flames out in the playoffs again. I hope it happens.

[KungFuJoe]

Harden winning the MVP might be worse than Nash and AI, especially if he flames out in the playoffs again. I hope it happens.

MVPs are regular season trophies. Playoffs don't count.

I don't even like Harden but he's been more valuable to a team winning in the West. Lebron seemed like he didn't even give a fck beginning of the season. Then he was out. Then he said he felt renewed. They are winning now but a lot of that has to do with Kyrie stepping up.

Harden has no one like Kyrie. Or Love. The team is arguably better without Dwight even.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

MVPs are regular season trophies. Playoffs don't count.

I don't even like Harden but he's been more valuable to a team winning in the West. Lebron seemed like he didn't even give a fck beginning of the season. Then he was out. Then he said he felt renewed. They are winning now but a lot of that has to do with Kyrie stepping up.

Harden has no one like Kyrie. Or Love. The team is arguably better without Dwight even.

Do you think Lin has an MVP case?

[CarlosBoozer]

Harden/Curry deserves it, though Curry's team is ten times more talented than the rockets.

[ArbitraryWater]

Why does LeBron get rewarded for missing games?

What if Harden missed 10 games and the Rockets went 0-10 losing by 20 PPG?

Let's not use "missed games" as anything useful, k?

Nobody is rewarded for "missing games", but we have 10 games without him on the court which illustrate his superior value... k?

[UK2K]

Nobody is rewarded for "missing games", but we have 10 games without him on the court which illustrate his superior value... k?
Crazy you need to miss games to illustrate your value.

Harden hasn't missed many, if at all, and we know he's the whole team.

[sportjames23]

He plays out west, on a less stacked team, while putting up better stats, with a much better team record...whats so hard to grasp?:lol

LeBald isn't even the 1st or 2nd best player on his own team and there's at least 3 players on his team with a better case for MVP.

:biggums:

[sportjames23]

The league is still protecting MJ.


:coleman:

[iamgine]

Missing games = you cannot contribute = you become less valuable.

Ray Allen for 82 games > Shaq for 20 games.

[ArbitraryWater]

Missing games = you cannot contribute = you become less valuable.

Ray Allen for 82 games > Shaq for 20 games.

What an absurd hypthetical...

What about Ray Allen for 82 games vs Shaq for 72 games, and Shaq's team was 2-8 without him and on 57 win pace with him?

[pauk]

Total team record.....

If MVP didnt have any importance at all to having the best team record then guys like Lebron and before him Shaq and before him Jordan and so on would have spamed MVP's every single season........ because they always were the best players on the floor, the most impactful players on the floor who really always made the MOST with whatever they had around them.....

[24-Inch_Chrome]

What an absurd hypthetical...

What about Ray Allen for 82 games vs Shaq for 72 games, and Shaq's team was 2-8 without him and on 57 win pace with him?

Was just about to post this, 82 v 20 gets away from what is being discussed.

[greymatter]

Because the Cavs, even with their recent winning streak, have had higher expectations while the Rockets have overachieved for the most part considering that Howard has been oft injured.

[Twiens]

Better record with waaaay less talent. Simple.

[Practice?]

What an absurd hypthetical...

What about Ray Allen for 82 games vs Shaq for 72 games, and Shaq's team was 2-8 without him and on 57 win pace with him?

So you can use a hypothetical to exaggerate your point but he can't exaggerate in his hypothetical?

If hypothetical can't be viewed unless it fits your criteria, might as well throw out hypotheticals completely and get back to James Harden for 82 games vs LeBron for 72? Both players are putting up similar stats, but Harden has been able to do it more consistently for his team because he hasn't sat.

[chazzy]

So you can use a hypothetical to exaggerate your point but he can't exaggerate in his hypothetical?

If hypothetical can't be viewed unless it fits your criteria, might as well throw out hypotheticals completely and get back to James Harden for 82 games vs LeBron for 72? Both players are putting up similar stats, but Harden has been able to do it more consistently for his team because he hasn't sat.
Lol this. Missing games and having your team lose without you only acts as fuel for fanboys on messageboards. In reality, it's always more valuable to be able to play in more games than not. Not to mention a bunch of those losses happened during a tough stretch in their schedule, so there's no guarantee of how many more games they would've won with him.

[ArbitraryWater]

So you can use a hypothetical to exaggerate your point but he can't exaggerate in his hypothetical?

If hypothetical can't be viewed unless it fits your criteria, might as well throw out hypotheticals completely and get back to James Harden for 82 games vs LeBron for 72? Both players are putting up similar stats, but Harden has been able to do it more consistently for his team because he hasn't sat.

I used the same hypothetical as he did, just adjusted properly to the ACTUAL amount of games LeBron missed.. :facepalm

Obviously, the correct one would be Harden/LeBron, genius.

[Practice?]

I used the same hypothetical as he did, just adjusted properly to the ACTUAL amount of games LeBron missed.. :facepalm

Obviously, the correct one would be Harden/LeBron, genius.

Yeah, but you ignored his point and created a straw man argument. I was pointing out that if you are going to do such a thing, might as well throw out the hypothetical completely.

[ArbitraryWater]

Yeah, but you ignored his point and created a straw man argument. I was pointing out that if you are going to do such a thing, might as well throw out the hypothetical completely.

Huh? He didn't have a point to begin with.. whats the point of comparing 82 games vs. 20? Is this the case here?

No shit the team loses one's contributions when you don't play, I won't fault LeBron for a back injury, instead we see his impact on a team...

[Chadwin]

Better record with waaaay less talent. Simple.

Yep, thier next best offensive option is probably DM. Comparitively the Cavs and Warriors are stacked.

[Leroy Jetson]

Missing games = you cannot contribute = you become less valuable.

Ray Allen for 82 games > Shaq for 20 games.

Unless those 20 games are in the playoffs.

[greatest-ever]

I get why Curry is higher - 37-8, better player than Harden in a vacuum etc..

But why Harden?

Rockets: 33-15
Cavs with LeBron: 28-12
(without): 2-8

Plus, LeBron is flat out better than Harden as a player. I don't see it.

MVP Race:

1) Curry
2) LeBron
3) Harden
4) Davis
Harden is higher in the MVP race simply because he has so far led the Rockets to a higher record in the tougher conference and with less talent than Lebron. Plus Lebron has missed a chuck of games while Harden has played most of the games.

There is also no basis for saying Lebron is "flat out better" right now. Lebron this season 26 6 7 58 ts% 26 PER, Harden 27 6 7 61 ts% 27 PER, so Harden has a slight edge in stats, the better record and more games played.

Lets not forget Howard has been banged up all year.