True or False: Prime T-Mac is the most Talented Player ever

[sammichoffate]

Discussrino.

[SugarHill]

define talent

[L.Kizzle]

truth

[sammichoffate]

define talentMaking ridiculous plays look like they were 2nd nature.

[RightTwoCensor]

Toss-Up between T-Mac and Jamie Harden.

Both wings that played like scoring PGs.
McGrady was long and quick.
Harden is strong and crafty.
Both can shoot.
Both can drive.
Both can pass.
Both can get to the FT Line.
Both can deliver in the clutch.
Both can rebound.
Both can play above the rim.
Both can handle the ball.

[Jlamb47]

False

[Nikola_]

he in da convesation

[The_Yearning]

True.

Prime T-Mac = Orlando T-Mac

90% of this board has no idea who Orlando T-Mac was.

[CasterL]

A god tier talent no doubt but most talented ever is so subjective.

[The_Pharcyde]

definitely up there but not the most talented
i would take a bird, MJ, kobe, lbj(as far as talent in every aspect of the game) and some others over peak tmac

but in his prime tmac was something to see, in a short list of guys who are truly worth the price of admission

[IncarceratedBob]

Heh, not even close. I consider IQ to be part of talent and he's stupid as shit.

[greatest-ever]

Toss-Up between T-Mac and Jamie Harden.

Both wings that played like scoring PGs.
McGrady was long and quick.
Harden is strong and crafty.
Both can shoot.
Both can drive.
Both can pass.
Both can get to the FT Line.
Both can deliver in the clutch.
Both can rebound.
Both can play above the rim.
Both can handle the ball.
I hope your joking about Harden. He's very talented yes but not one of the top 5 talents ever. He relies a lot on bs free throws and his game so far has not translated well to the playoffs.

[24-Inch_Chrome]

I hope your joking about Harden. He's very talented yes but not one of the top 5 talents ever. He relies a lot on bs free throws and his game so far has not translated well to the playoffs.

He's a troll, best to ignore.

[GrapeApe]

Toss-Up between T-Mac and Jamie Harden.

Both wings that played like scoring PGs.
McGrady was long and quick.
Harden is strong and crafty.
Both can shoot.
Both can drive.
Both can pass.
Both can get to the FT Line.
Both can deliver in the clutch.
Both can rebound.
Both can play above the rim.
Both can handle the ball.

Both suck in the playoffs too.

[Chadwin]

As in overall athleticsm?

vertical, quickness, strength, etc...

MJ
Bron
Dwight

[Velocirap31]

His cousin was more athletic and a better shooter.

[BigMacAttack]

As in overall athleticsm?

vertical, quickness, strength, etc...

MJ
Bron
Dwight

Athleticism isnt talent, unless your playing AAU ball.

[LoneyROY7]

His cousin was more athletic and a better shooter.

And T-Mac was a better ball-handler, slasher, and playmaker.

[Chadwin]

Athleticism isnt talent, unless your playing AAU ball.

The definition of talent includes athletic ability. But that's why I asked.

[Relinquish]

Have to agree, without a doubt. :cheers:

[GrapeApe]

Heh, not even close. I consider IQ to be part of talent and he's stupid as shit.

Agreed, and you bring up an excellent point. The cerebral aspect of talent is extremely underrated. Too many people incorrectly equate talent to mean physical ability only.

[T_L_P]

Nope.

Didn't have the defensive instincts, IQ, drive (not that he wasn't driven), or body to own that title.

The most talented player was MJ. The perfect blend of height, speed, athleticism and smarts. Not to mention those hands.

[AirBourne92]

Toss-Up between T-Mac and Jamie Harden.

Both wings that played like scoring PGs.
McGrady was long and quick.
Harden is strong and crafty.
Both can shoot.
Both can drive.
Both can pass.
Both can get to the FT Line.
Both can deliver in the clutch.
Both can rebound.
Both can play above the rim.
Both can handle the ball.

disagree with this.

tmac was superior to james, and that's no offense to harden

harden can't play midrange or triple threat like tmac

offensive arsenal isn't even a debate

and with that said, yes T-Mac is the most talented.

He filled components of athleticism and skill in a complimentary manner no player has done so IMO.

[Mass Debator]

As in overall athleticsm?

vertical, quickness, strength, etc...

MJ
Bron
Dwight
< Shaq/Wilt

[Element]

Nope.

Didn't have the defensive instincts, IQ, drive (not that he wasn't driven), or body to own that title.

The most talented player was MJ. The perfect blend of height, speed, athleticism and smarts. Not to mention those hands.

T-Mac came into the league and was primarily a defensive stopper in his first few years. He definitely had the instincts and the IQ.

I think he's definitely in contention. McGrady didn't even start working out in-season before 02-03. Had this guy owned the drive and fire of say, Kobe or Jordan, we'd be looking at (barring injuries) a guy who would at worst be a Top 10 GOAT right now.

[JimmyMcAdocious]

I believe he had some of the best, if not the most, natural talent to work with.

Still haven't seen anyone make basketball look as easy as he did. Past or present. And, fwiw, when he was on (ie; in the zone), I would probably take on fire TMac over any other player in their zone.

[pastis]

never shot over 45 % (his best years were before 04). since 04:
04: 41 %
05: 43 %
06: 40%
07: 43%
08: 41 %

and then it dropps down to the 38%-esque the followng years

from 04-08 he was still in his "prime" earning 2 all-nba second and 2 all nba third teams. i would say you need a higher efficiency before being considered as themost talented ever

[theoneneo]

If you put Prime Tmac in todays NBA lmao :lol

The amount of ****ery you'd see would be astounding. I'm talking looking at the boxscores saying "Damn, Tmac had 60 again?"

He didn't have more talent than Kobe tho :pimp:

[theoneneo]

I believe he had some of the best, if not the most, natural talent to work with.

Still haven't seen anyone make basketball look as easy as he did. Past or present. And, fwiw, when he was on (ie; in the zone), I would probably take on fire TMac over any other player in their zone.

You'd take a zone Tmac over a in the zone Kobe? Idk man. Either way you'd get something special, but I just think in his zone Kobe was unmatched by anyone. Even Jordan.

Jordan still goat tho.

But Kobe in the zone http://www.thecoli.com/styles/default/xenforo/smilies/whoo.png

[CavaliersFTW]

How TF is prime Tmac even any convincingly better a specimen than Connie Hawkins let alone legitimate freak giants like Wilt Chamberlain or Shaquille O'Neal!? FFS :facepalm

[Practice?]

False

[Element]

How TF is prime Tmac even any convincingly better a specimen than Connie Hawkins let alone legitimate freak giants like Wilt Chamberlain or Shaquille O'Neal!? FFS :facepalm

It's not just about being a phyiscal specimen. Of course fapping to draft measurements all day will instill that mindset over time, but you're missing the point.

T-Mac was a baskebtall natural. He started putting in mad work once he got to Orlando, but it was still laughable compared to say, Kobe. From RealGM

[QUOTE]Reading this article on the MIT Sloan Sport Analytics Conference, where it was mentioned that TMac was estimated to supposedly had practiced in his lifetime well-under what is considered the sufficient amount of time to expertise one skillset to muscular memory (think Yo-Yo Ma or Tiger Woods). The fact that he was so naturally gifted, he didn't need those 10,000 hours of practice to put it together, and to the regular eyeballs, he looks darn good as it is with them.

My question is: If TMac has gone on to good college with a good coach back in the days, say something like Coach K or Dean Smith, who managed to instill the game and work ethic. How much "better" can TMac be?

The article: http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/ball_dont_lie/post/Tracy-McGrady-freakish-talent-and-the-peril-o?urn=nba-330022" target="_blank

[quote]As often occurs when discussing abstract ideas, talk turned quickly to a physical example

[Badazzwriter]

ever heard of this guy named lebron?

[funnystuff]

How TF is prime Tmac even any convincingly better a specimen than Connie Hawkins let alone legitimate freak giants like Wilt Chamberlain or Shaquille O'Neal!? FFS :facepalm
Every one of your posts makes you look stuck in the past bruh.


You still mad about Bron leaving 4 years ago, yet he's carrying your poo team. :roll:

[atljonesbro]

If you put Prime Tmac in todays NBA lmao :lol

The amount of ****ery you'd see would be astounding. I'm talking looking at the boxscores saying "Damn, Tmac had 60 again?"

He didn't have more talent than Kobe tho :pimp:
Funny how every old player would always completely dominate the current era. Has basketball just got progressively worse because I remember hearing similar crap to this back when Tmac was in his prime. Just nostalgia. That's it.

[Showtime2001]

When he was healthy no question one of the best in the league.

[CP343]

^ One of the best, sure. But not "the most talented player ever."

[LiLharvard]

I really lament the fact i never really got to see T mac play... sure, ive seen highlight videos but that just doesn't give me any familiarity with his talent.. one thing about tmac is he has a lot of respect from his peers. Kobe,Pierce and all the greats always remark on tmac's unique talent and never going up against anything quite like him

[SHAQisGOAT]

Peak T-Mac was crazy but... definitely no...

[3ball]

Peak T-Mac was crazy but... definitely no...


and honestly, if Tmac was ANYWHERE NEAR the most talented player ever, he would never have physically broken down and peetered out, especially the way he did (with his back breaking down).

that doesn't happen to truly superior physical specimen's - i'm sure if he was playing against college or HS kids, his back doesn't break down.

[CavaliersFTW]

It's not just about being a phyiscal specimen. Of course fapping to draft measurements all day will instill that mindset over time, but you're missing the point.

T-Mac was a baskebtall natural. He started putting in mad work once he got to Orlando, but it was still laughable compared to say, Kobe. From RealGM



The guy simply had it all; the flash, the fundamentals, literally the perfect swingman body and athleticism (except for LeBron's otherworldly strength) but the one thing he lacked was competitive fire and a drive to get better. Like, not saying that he lacked it because otherwise he wouldn't have made the league, but compared to other all time greats, he was lazy as fcuk.
Draft measurements? No honestly this is just ridiculous.

Connie Hawkins, Michael Jordan, Doctor J

These guys are but a few that were quite visibly more like basketball "naturals" or better talent or w/e arbitrary crap is being pushed here than Tmac. If you don't want centers and want wing players that use "skill" rather than brute effective size/power than fine.

But that doesn't change reality that any of the top centers off the game (heck top 20 to 30 all-time centers) > Peak Tmac on a basketball floor.

[bizil]

Peak wise, T-Mac is in the top five SG's of all time along with MJ, Kobe, Wade, and West. At nearly 6'9, T-Mac has anywhere to 3-5 inches on those guys. From there he had a great midrange game, great slashing ability, great postup game, and a very good three point shooter.

And in terms of the full speed dribble and stop on a dime three pointers, he was GREAT! Mac was also a freakish athlete who could play PG, SG, and SF. So when u factor his size, athletic ability and skillset, I think he has a case OFFENSIVELY to be the most talented player ever. Dude was a great scorer and great passer in one.

But keep in mind who's the most talented AND who's the best is two different things. The main difference between T-Mac and Kobe for example is defense and durability. So I think Kobe is the better player.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

False

[CavaliersFTW]

Peak wise, T-Mac is in the top five SG's of all time along with MJ, Kobe, Wade, and West. At nearly 6'9, T-Mac has anywhere to 3-5 inches on those guys. From there he had a great midrange game, great slashing ability, great postup game, and a very good three point shooter.

And in terms of the full speed dribble and stop on a dime three pointers, he was GREAT! Mac was also a freakish athlete who could play PG, SG, and SF. So when u factor his size, athletic ability and skillset, I think he has a case OFFENSIVELY to be the most talented player ever. Dude was a great scorer and great passer in one.

But keep in mind who's the most talented AND who's the best is two different things. The main difference between T-Mac and Kobe for example is defense and durability. So I think Kobe is the better player.
His measurements are 6-7 with a 7-2 wingspan 212lbs though I'm sure he added a bit more weight after being drafted

But he was a swing man between guard and forward not a pure 2-guard. Would be more comparable to a John Havlicek or Connie Hawkins type player than a West/Jordan/Kobe/Wade type player would he not?

Connie Hawkins. 6-8 without shoes, also with a condor wingspan and among the biggest hands of all time ...hands that also were remarkably dexterous. Hawkins could shoot, drive, handle, and pass as well as anyone too. Gifted tall wing players are not a new concept, they don't come around often but there have been more than just Tmac, and of course currently Durant.

[IGOTGAME]

Shaq is the most talented I've ever seen.

[Practice?]

Funny how every old player would always completely dominate the current era. Has basketball just got progressively worse because I remember hearing similar crap to this back when Tmac was in his prime. Just nostalgia. That's it.

I don't know, prime T-Mac couldn't even get out of the 1st round, but an old crippled T-Mac was able to get his team to the Finals in the modern era.

[juju151111]

People have to remember why peak tmac is looked at so well. He played in a era 98-05 where perimeter players wasn't getting 40 every other game. The toughest defensive era and he made things looked effortless. From 06 on players drop 40 regularly and midgets get ticky tack fouls to have a PG infested league. He was sick player.

[bizil]

His measurements are 6-7 with a 7-2 wingspan 212lbs though I'm sure he added a bit more weight after being drafted

But he was a swing man between guard and forward not a pure 2-guard. Would be more comparable to a John Havlicek or Connie Hawkins type player than a West/Jordan/Kobe/Wade type player would he not?

Connie Hawkins. 6-8 without shoes, also with a condor wingspan and among the biggest hands of all time ...hands that also were remarkably dexterous. Hawkins could shoot, drive, handle, and pass as well as anyone too. Gifted tall wing players are not a new concept, they don't come around often but there have been more than just Tmac, and of course currently Durant.

Connie Hawkins wasn't a swingman. He was more of a SF-PF combo. So in that sense, T-Mac would compare more favorably to an MJ or Kobe. T-Mac played MORE THAN ENOUGH SG to be compared to other SG's. If u look at most of his prime years, he was listed as an SG. But sure he played SF in addition to that too. So I see NO PROBLEM in comparing him to other SG's, when that was his primary position most of the time during his prime years.

Hondo MOST OF THE time was listed as an SF. Sure he played SG and was a swingman would could play both. But history lists him as an all time great SF. Not an all time great swingman or SG.

Before T-Mac, name another 6'7 to 6'8 SG with his array of alpha dog scoring skills, his complete scoring skillset, all around game, and athletic ability. U CAN'T. Drexler's scoring skillset wasn't as polished. Gervin didn't have the all around game.

Even among SF's, u can't name anybody who combined ALL OF THOSE FACETS before T-Mac. Pippen didn't have T-Mac's scoring ability. Grant Hill's scoring skillset wasn't as complete. So at SG or SF, T-Mac was something special. At PG, Penny at 6'7 was bringing similar things there, but he didn't get to exploit it as long as T-Mac.

[JohnFreeman]

McGrady > Durant

[Prometheus]

Keep in mind that "most talented" =/= "best" whatsoever.

That being said...

Wilt Chamberlain is the most talented basketball player ever, and it isn't even remotely close to being debatable.

[jaybee682]

Yes without a doubt. Tmac had the ideal bball body. Could do anything on the court. If he had MJ's or Bird's aggressiveness and Karl Malone and Lebron's bones he would be the greatest basketball player ever. People often forget the season before going to Orlando he was a top 3 perimeter defender.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

False, but he's up there. I believe Jordan/LeBron/Wilt/Shaq/Kareem all had a bit more talent.

If TMac's injuries were suppressed, and he would've just built on his 2002-03 campaign, dude would probably be regarded as high as Kobe.

[kshutts1]

4 pages in, and still no clear definition from OP of "talented".

In my opinion...
Skill = abilities that can be honed and improved upon
Talent = Natural skills/abilities

Size is a separate matter altogether, and I would even go so far as to say that, in order to find the most skilled or talented player, we must hypothetically make everyone the same size.

Considering those criteria, I nominate AI. TMac is a lesser (albeit larger) version of AI.

[el_locoteee]

Athleticism isnt talent, unless your playing AAU ball.

A talent is ability you get when born a genetic gift, skills is something you develop with training, and will.

T-Mac got all the talent for basketball, quick, tall, long arms, can jump, can change speed, while still having the finest touch, until his body gave up.

[PHILA]

6-7 with a 7-2 wingspan
"The beauty of long arms. McGrady plays like he's a 7-footer."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EX0UCevA0Fk&t=17m8s



LeBron
"Hey LeBron, get ready baby. It's coming soon to a gym near you buddy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EX0UCevA0Fk&t=44m38s

[Euroleague]

Prime T-Mac? No.

Peak T-Mac? Maybe.

His talent was unreal. It was his unwillingness to play through even a hangnail that kept him from realizing his potential.

[To4]

Natural talent on playing bball? Silky smooth like his not even trying on playing?

YES!

[BigMacAttack]

Prime T-Mac? No.

Peak T-Mac? Maybe.

His talent was unreal. It was his unwillingness to play through even a hangnail that kept him from realizing his potential.

What up EL? This might be the most normal comment of yours I've ever seen.

[IGOTGAME]

how can anyone who watched Shaq say that TMac is more talented at the game of basketball?

I'm confused, did we just not see what Shaq and how easy it came to him?

[Cold soul]

Nope.

Didn't have the defensive instincts, IQ, drive (not that he wasn't driven), or body to own that title.

The most talented player was MJ. The perfect blend of height, speed, athleticism and smarts. Not to mention those hands.

Well said. Kobe arguable most talented player individually skill wise in NBA history. Kobe fundamentals, footwork, making high difficultly shots making him most offensively gifted player in history.

[3ball]

"The beauty of long arms. McGrady plays like he's a 7-footer."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EX0UCevA0Fk&t=17m8s



"Hey LeBron, get ready baby. It's coming soon to a gym near you buddy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EX0UCevA0Fk&t=44m38s
jfc, Tmac BEST YEAR was Jordan's standard season.

that's a fact.

you guys are going apeshit over tmac doing things in ONE season or ONE series that were STANDARD for jordan for his entire career -

that dunk you posted of Tmac is okay, but Jordan dunked twice as much and had MANY MANY more such dunks than Tmac - it's not close at all.

tmac the most talented player of all time?... the statement couldn't be more ignorant.

seriously - jordan got twice as many dunks as Tmac each year, and posterized guys FAR more often - the stats prove it - http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=352399

but keep posting links to the ONE series where Tmac did anything.... what a joke
.

[PHILA]

that dunk you posted of Tmac is okay, but Jordan dunked twice as much and had MANY MANY more such dunks than Tmac - it's not close at all.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMLpMAFNpo4&t=9m28s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrQWLLpzvWA&t=1h5m4s

Jordan was comfortable going off both feet as well off the hop step. He is the best going baseline, though the best overall slasher is Elgin Baylor both across the middle and going baseline.



tmac the most talented player of all time?... the statement couldn't be more ignorant.
:no:

I did not take the thread title at face value, as my answer would be Chamberlain. Remember McGrady considered sitting out the entire 2003 season due to back pain. I wonder if his injuries had more to do with his work ethic or a structural problem ala Bill Walton.



http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2002-10-03/sports/0210030214_1_gutman-mcgrady-magic

October 3, 2002

Six weeks ago, Tracy McGrady, scared and confused, wondered whether surgery was the only way to relieve his aching back.

"I thought maybe I wasn't going to play this season," McGrady revealed Wednesday. "I thought about getting surgery, and that is bad. . . . I'm 23 years old. I couldn't find anybody who could take the pain away."

McGrady has been searching for relief ever since last season began with a wince and ended with a wail. He first started aching in the preseason. He missed three games with back problems in December, then wobbled off after the Magic's playoff ouster against the Charlotte Hornets.

"It was so bad, I almost didn't play the first game. I came down after scoring and experienced more pain than I've ever had," he said. "All I could think about was [former Knicks forward] Larry Johnson, how he retired early with a bad back."

[bizil]

I think what the OP was implying was if u combine everything that T-Mac brought to the table, is he the most talented (not the best) player ever. For one, I separate big men from perimeter players. In terms of perimeter players, I think he has a case offensively. Among perimeter players, how many guys can say they are a freak athlete, an alpha dog, is a great passer, and can play PG, SG, and SF:

MJ
Kobe
Lebron
T-Mac
Grant Hill
Drexler (Not sure on him. I knows he dribbles with head down but I think he could have played the PG.)


These six standout to me in that regard. From here, who has the best scoring skillset? I would say T-Mac's scoring skillset in on par with MJ and Kobe. But what makes T-Mac unique is the fact that they say he's 6'8 maybe close to 6'9. So that give him 3 inches on MJ and Kobe.

So when u break it down the way I did, u could say he has a case at least offensively. Keep in mind, IM NOT SAYING BETTER! But when u look at the tools at his disposal and u factor in his athletic ability and size, peak T-Mac had it all in spades on the offensive side of the court.

[MJistheGOAT]

From the players I have seen, is Shaq.
If he had the work ethic of MJ/Kobe level --> GOAT

If legends are partially true, the other answer is Wilt.