MVPs that became second fiddle in the Playoffs

[Deuce Bigalow]

2014 - The Servant

http://stackholdersonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/Kevin-Durant-The-Servant.jpg

Others?

[navy]

2007 Dirk to Josh Howard

[Shep]

Apart from the above 2:
2006: Nash (Marion) - Nash didn't deserve MVP
1996: Jordan (Pippen)
1969: Unseld (Monroe) - Unseld didn't deserve MVP
1959: Pettit (Hagan)
1958: Russell (Cousy)

[navy]

Apart from the above 2:
2006: Nash (Marion) - Nash didn't deserve MVP
1996: Jordan (Pippen)
1969: Unseld (Monroe) - Unseld didn't deserve MVP
1959: Pettit (Hagan)
1958: Russell (Cousy)
:biggums:

[AirBourne92]

:biggums:


lol it's true


jordan even said pippen shouldve gotten fmvp

[Roundball_Rock]

lol it's true


jordan even said pippen shouldve gotten fmvp

That was in 97'--Malone was MVP that year, not Jordan.

[navy]

lol it's true


jordan even said pippen shouldve gotten fmvp
:biggums:

Link?

[Lebronxrings]

kobe

[Thunderfan86]

2014 - The Servant

Others?
You are such a horrible person. I hope someone punches you in the face within the next few days.

[nba_55]

You are such a horrible person. I hope someone punches you in the face within the next few days.

Well...he is telling the truth.

[Joyner82reload]

Hell LeBron became 3rd fiddle in the 2011 Finals

[AirBourne92]

:biggums:

Link?


sorry, couldn't find the exact source i read the first time and i misquoted it. my bad.

http://duytano.blogspot.com/2013/03/defending-scottie-pippen.html

do the following if you want to cut to the chase

ctr + f "half"

to put that part in context, jordan said that after the finals game.

jordan had a pretty bad shooting series in the final, pippen pretty much made sure the bulls didn't lose.

not saying jordan shouldn't have gotten fmvp, and maybe this thread is a little drastic to mention jordan being "2nd fiddle" cause he really wasn't, but that finals series had Pippen all over it.

[Rose'sACL]

Hell LeBron became 3rd fiddle in the 2011 Finals
look at the idiot and laugh.

[Thunderfan86]

Well...he is telling the truth.
His truth is not the actual truth

[Joyner82reload]

look at the idiot and laugh.

2011 Finals
http://oi57.tinypic.com/1zd0twx.jpg

2014 Playoffs
http://oi61.tinypic.com/1zzhle9.jpg


2nd option averaging 30/9/4 on 46 FG% :confusedshrug:

[nba_55]

2011 Finals
http://oi57.tinypic.com/1zd0twx.jpg

2014 Playoffs
http://oi61.tinypic.com/1zzhle9.jpg


2nd option averaging 30/9/3 on 46 FG% :confusedshrug:

Proving how big of an idiot you are AGAIN! :facepalm

[Eric Cartman]

2011 Finals
http://oi57.tinypic.com/1zd0twx.jpg

Don't do 'em like that :oldlol: :oldlol:

[nba_55]

His truth is not the actual truth

LOL.... STFU :oldlol:

[nba_55]

Don't do 'em like that :oldlol: :oldlol:

another sheep idiot following an idiot :facepalm

[sportjames23]

Apart from the above 2:
2006: Nash (Marion) - Nash didn't deserve MVP
1996: Jordan (Pippen)
1969: Unseld (Monroe) - Unseld didn't deserve MVP
1959: Pettit (Hagan)
1958: Russell (Cousy)


Weak troll attempt, fggt.

[Thunderfan86]

LOL.... STFU :oldlol:
What? It's not :confusedshrug:

[Joyner82reload]

Proving how big of an idiot you are AGAIN! :facepalm

You do realize that LeBron averaged 28/8/4 in last years Finals where he "was the only one of the team playing worth a damn", right?

That's literally worse than what Durant averaged when he was "second fiddle"

Hell LeBron averaged 27/7/5 for the ENTIRE playoffs last season. I guess he was second fiddle as well.

[nba_55]

You do realize that LeBron averaged 28/8/4 in last years Finals where he "was the only one of the team playing worth a damn", right?

That's literally worse than what Durant averaged when he was "second fiddle"

Hell LeBron averaged 27/7/5 for the ENTIRE playoffs last season. I guess he was second fiddle as well.

You still haven't realised that Lebron wasn't MVP in 2011? :biggums:

[Roundball_Rock]

to put that part in context, jordan said that after the finals game.

jordan had a pretty bad shooting series in the final, pippen pretty much made sure the bulls didn't lose.

He said that after the 97' Finals. 96' was the one Finals Pippen, hobbled by injuries, played poorly.

[J Shuttlesworth]

2011 Finals
http://oi57.tinypic.com/1zd0twx.jpg

2014 Playoffs
http://oi61.tinypic.com/1zzhle9.jpg


2nd option averaging 30/9/4 on 46 FG% :confusedshrug:
Comparing series to a playoff run? :facepalm

http://i.imgur.com/AJ7Vch2.png
LBJ clearly 1a, Wade 1b

[SugarHill]

You still haven't realised that Lebron wasn't MVP in 2011? :biggums:
:roll:

[J Shuttlesworth]

Hell LeBron averaged 27/7/5 for the ENTIRE playoffs last season. I guess he was second fiddle as well.
LeBron didn't win MVP last year, don't you know this?

But who on the Heat averaged better numbers than Bron last year? Westbrook had significantly more assists than KD because he was handling the ball more, and he was their Go to player in crunch time.

[SugarHill]

Joyner basically suggesting Durant had a better playoffs in 2014 than LeBron's two championships

[TheMarkMadsen]

Comparing series to a playoff run? :facepalm

http://i.imgur.com/AJ7Vch2.png
LBJ clearly 1a, Wade 1b

how was lebron "clearly 1a" when he was averaging less points on worse shooting percentages than Wade?

[Magic 32]

Comparing series to a playoff run? :facepalm

http://i.imgur.com/AJ7Vch2.png
LBJ clearly 1a, Wade 1b

https://31.media.tumblr.com/0af264a9999a9801dfa2f9b620357f33/tumblr_msibx8DpuJ1stk9xvo1_500.gif

[TheMarkMadsen]

Joyner basically suggesting Durant had a better playoffs in 2014 than LeBron's two championships

same dumb shit lebron stans do when they try and act losing in the second round with great stats >> winning championship :confusedshrug: :confusedshrug: (2009,2010)

[RoundMoundOfReb]

LeBron wasn't the MVP in 2011 so it's irrelevant.

[SugarHill]

same dumb shit lebron stans do when they try and act losing in the second round with great stats >> winning championship :confusedshrug: :confusedshrug: (2009,2010)
Actually joyner never said anything like that. I was wrong. :(

[Megabox!]

You still haven't realised that Lebron wasn't MVP in 2011? :biggums:
:roll: :roll: that's all folks

[JohnFreeman]

2011 Finals
http://oi57.tinypic.com/1zd0twx.jpg

2014 Playoffs
http://oi61.tinypic.com/1zzhle9.jpg


2nd option averaging 30/9/4 on 46 FG% :confusedshrug:
LeBron was MVP in 2011?

[J Shuttlesworth]

how was lebron "clearly 1a" when he was averaging less points on worse shooting percentages than Wade?
More assists, more rebounds, more ball handling responsibilities. Same shot attempts which is why I say 1a, and 1b, not 1 and 2

[Lebronxrings]

how was lebron "clearly 1a" when he was averaging less points on worse shooting percentages than Wade?
assists? rebounding? defense? Clutch shots?

[Shep]

:biggums:
:confusedshrug:

Weak troll attempt, fggt
lol fk off you dumb cnt

[dunksby]

Stupid OP strikes again.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Apart from the above 2:
2006: Nash (Marion) - Nash didn't deserve MVP
1996: Jordan (Pippen)
1969: Unseld (Monroe) - Unseld didn't deserve MVP
1959: Pettit (Hagan)
1958: Russell (Cousy)
:facepalm @ Scottie, at any point in the 2nd three peat, having a case for being the team's best player. Especially in the post season.

1996 Playoffs:

MJ: 30 ppg, 46%, 4 apg, 5 rpg, 2 spg ~ Great Defense
Pip: 17 ppg, 39%, 6 apg, 9 rpg, 3 spg ~ Dominant Defense

1997 Playoffs:

MJ: 31 ppg, 46%, 5 apg, 8 rpg, 2 spg ~ Great Defense
Pip: 19 ppg, 42%, 4 apg, 7 rpg, 2 spg ~ Great Defense

1998 Playoffs:

MJ: 32 ppg, 46%, 4 apg, 5 rpg, 2 spg ~ Great Defense
Pip: 17 ppg, 42%, 5 apg, 7 rpg, 2 spg ~ Dominant Defense

The disparity in Volume PPG, clutch scoring, along with FG% is just too significant for there even to be a comparison to Jordan. This isn't a 2001 - 2004 Shaq v.s. Kobe sitch. Or 2011's LeBron v.s. Wade sitch. Where alpha status was in question. Scottie, while extremely important and impactful, was also clearly inferior.

[imdaman99]

No Lebron was not MVP in 2011, unless MVP stands for most valuable poussey.

But he was considered the best player in the game in his prime. Most valuable poussey indeed.
http://i.imgur.com/DEl5evX.jpg

[Shep]

:facepalm @ Scottie, at any point in the 2nd three peat, having a case for being the team's best player. Especially in the post season.

1996 Playoffs:

MJ: 30 ppg, 46%, 4 apg, 5 rpg, 2 spg ~ Great Defense
Pip: 17 ppg, 39%, 6 apg, 9 rpg, 3 spg ~ Dominant Defense

1997 Playoffs:

MJ: 31 ppg, 46%, 5 apg, 8 rpg, 2 spg ~ Great Defense
Pip: 19 ppg, 42%, 4 apg, 7 rpg, 2 spg ~ Great Defense

1998 Playoffs:

MJ: 32 ppg, 46%, 4 apg, 5 rpg, 2 spg ~ Great Defense
Pip: 17 ppg, 42%, 5 apg, 7 rpg, 2 spg ~ Dominant Defense

The disparity in Volume PPG, clutch scoring, along with FG% is just too significant for there even to be a comparison to Jordan. This isn't a 2001 - 2004 Shaq v.s. Kobe sitch. Or 2011's LeBron v.s. Wade sitch. Where alpha status was in question. Scottie, while extremely important and impactful, was also clearly inferior.
In the 1996 playoffs Pippen was better than Jordan. Overall Jordan was better due to his regular season. Jordan had the advantage of PPG, Pippen had the advantage in everything else, including guarding the opposing teams best perimeter defender. Pippen was easily the best in the first round, Jordan easily the best in the second round, overall Pippen has the slight edge.

[funnystuff]

God, Joyner is such an idiot. :roll:

[SamuraiSWISH]

In the 1996 playoffs Pippen was better than Jordan. Overall Jordan was better due to his regular season. Jordan had the advantage of PPG, Pippen had the advantage in everything else, including guarding the opposing teams best perimeter defender. Pippen was easily the best in the first round, Jordan easily the best in the second round, overall Pippen has the slight edge.
No, just ... no. Scottie didn't defend Shaq. Jordan, Pip and Harper all took turns hounding Penny. There was no singular dominant offensive player to defend against Miami besides Tim Hardaway who Harp handled. And neither of them defended Ewing. Although all of them collapsed or swarmed him. Scottie didn't defend Kemp, or Gary Payton either.

The Bulls team defense as a whole between Harper - Mike - Pip - Rodman made them impossible to deal with. To single out Pippen exclusively on the defense is rather absurd.

And no one has claims to be the best player for any team, particularly in the playoffs, when they are scoring 17 ppg on 39% from the field. Get real.

1st round v.s. Miami: Pippen
2nd round v.s. New York: MJ (clearly)
3rd round v.s. Orlando: MJ
Finals v.s. Seattle: MJ

And that's acknowledging MJ shot poorly in the Finals, for his standard, though it was Pippen's average FG% for the 2nd three peat. And Scottie was easily worse by comparison in the same series. Guy shot 34%. And he didn't have the third best perimeter defender in the league after MJ and Pippen themselves, in Gary Payton. He was being guarded by Detlef Shremp, the Sonics worst starting individual defender.

You went full retard even insinuating '96 Jordan was "second fiddle" to lockdown, jack of all trades, master of none, putrid shooting Scottie Pippen in the 1996 playoffs.

[Prometheus]

No, just ... no. Scottie didn't defend Shaq. Jordan, Pip and Harper all took turns hounding Penny. There was no singular dominant offensive player to defend against Miami besides Tim Hardaway who Harp handled. And neither of them defended Ewing. Although all of them collapsed or swarmed him. Scottie didn't defend Kemp, or Gary Payton either.

The Bulls team defense as a whole between Harper - Mike - Pip - Rodman made them impossible to deal with. To single out Pippen exclusively on the defense is rather absurd.

And no one has claims to be the best player for any team, particularly in the playoffs, when they are scoring 17 ppg on 39% from the field. Get real.

1st round v.s. Miami: Pippen
2nd round v.s. New York: MJ (clearly)
3rd round v.s. Orlando: MJ
Finals v.s. Seattle: MJ

And that's acknowledging MJ shot poorly in the Finals, for his standard, though it was Pippen's average FG% for the 2nd three peat. And Scottie was easily worse by comparison in the same series. Guy shot 34%. And he didn't have the third best perimeter defender in the league after MJ and Pippen themselves, in Gary Payton. He was being guarded by Detlef Shremp, the Sonics worst starting individual defender.

You went full retard even insinuating '96 Jordan was "second fiddle" to lockdown, jack of all trades, master of none, putrid shooting Scottie Pippen in the 1996 playoffs.

:rockon:

Get em.

[Mr Feeny]

No, just ... no. Scottie didn't defend Shaq. Jordan, Pip and Harper all took turns hounding Penny. There was no singular dominant offensive player to defend against Miami besides Tim Hardaway who Harp handled. And neither of them defended Ewing. Although all of them collapsed or swarmed him. Scottie didn't defend Kemp, or Gary Payton either.

The Bulls team defense as a whole between Harper - Mike - Pip - Rodman made them impossible to deal with. To single out Pippen exclusively on the defense is rather absurd.

And no one has claims to be the best player for any team, particularly in the playoffs, when they are scoring 17 ppg on 39% from the field. Get real.

1st round v.s. Miami: Pippen
2nd round v.s. New York: MJ (clearly)
3rd round v.s. Orlando: MJ
Finals v.s. Seattle: MJ

And that's acknowledging MJ shot poorly in the Finals, for his standard, though it was Pippen's average FG% for the 2nd three peat. And Scottie was easily worse by comparison in the same series. Guy shot 34%. And he didn't have the third best perimeter defender in the league after MJ and Pippen themselves, in Gary Payton. He was being guarded by Detlef Shremp, the Sonics worst starting individual defender.

You went full retard even insinuating '96 Jordan was "second fiddle" to lockdown, jack of all trades, master of none, putrid shooting Scottie Pippen in the 1996 playoffs.
He needs aloe vera for that burn...

[DatAsh]

No, just ... no. Scottie didn't defend Shaq. Jordan, Pip and Harper all took turns hounding Penny. There was no singular dominant offensive player to defend against Miami besides Tim Hardaway who Harp handled. And neither of them defended Ewing. Although all of them collapsed or swarmed him. Scottie didn't defend Kemp, or Gary Payton either.

The Bulls team defense as a whole between Harper - Mike - Pip - Rodman made them impossible to deal with. To single out Pippen exclusively on the defense is rather absurd.

And no one has claims to be the best player for any team, particularly in the playoffs, when they are scoring 17 ppg on 39% from the field. Get real.

1st round v.s. Miami: Pippen
2nd round v.s. New York: MJ (clearly)
3rd round v.s. Orlando: MJ
Finals v.s. Seattle: MJ

And that's acknowledging MJ shot poorly in the Finals, for his standard, though it was Pippen's average FG% for the 2nd three peat. And Scottie was easily worse by comparison in the same series. Guy shot 34%. And he didn't have the third best perimeter defender in the league after MJ and Pippen themselves, in Gary Payton. He was being guarded by Detlef Shremp, the Sonics worst starting individual defender.

You went full retard even insinuating '96 Jordan was "second fiddle" to lockdown, jack of all trades, master of none, putrid shooting Scottie Pippen in the 1996 playoffs.

I agree with this. Would you say Pippen has a better case in 97?

[Andrei89]

2011 Finals
http://oi57.tinypic.com/1zd0twx.jpg

2014 Playoffs
http://oi61.tinypic.com/1zzhle9.jpg


2nd option averaging 30/9/4 on 46 FG% :confusedshrug:

you put 2011 finals and 2014 playoffs.

Finals, playoffs, finals, playoffs, finals, playoffs, finals , playoffs.

They look the same to you? Not to mention, Bron was not MVP in 2011.

Go on and paint Paris for your fat girlfriend.

[OldSchoolBBall]

sorry, couldn't find the exact source i read the first time and i misquoted it. my bad.

http://duytano.blogspot.com/2013/03/defending-scottie-pippen.html

do the following if you want to cut to the chase

ctr + f "half"

to put that part in context, jordan said that after the finals game.

jordan had a pretty bad shooting series in the final, pippen pretty much made sure the bulls didn't lose.

not saying jordan shouldn't have gotten fmvp, and maybe this thread is a little drastic to mention jordan being "2nd fiddle" cause he really wasn't, but that finals series had Pippen all over it.

We're talking about 1996? Because Pippen averaged like 15 ppg/40% FG in the Finals that year, and over the course of the entire playoffs Jordan was far better. I know you can't be talking about 1997 either.

[Roundball_Rock]

In the 1996 playoffs Pippen was better than Jordan. Overall Jordan was better due to his regular season. Jordan had the advantage of PPG, Pippen had the advantage in everything else, including guarding the opposing teams best perimeter defender. Pippen was easily the best in the first round, Jordan easily the best in the second round, overall Pippen has the slight edge.

Nah. Pip had multiple injuries by the playoffs that year. That was his worst playoff run in the 90's. It is a shame since 96' Pippen probably was the best version of Pippen prior to the late season health issues. MJ himself was calling Pippen the league MVP early in the season.

:oldlol: at SS calling the GOAT perimeter defender a "master of none" and a mere jack of all trades, though.

[SouBeachTalents]

Nah. Pip had multiple injuries by the playoffs that year. That was his worst playoff run in the 90's. It is a shame since 96' Pippen probably was the best version of Pippen prior to the late season health issues. MJ himself was calling Pippen the league MVP early in the season.

:oldlol: at SS calling the GOAT perimeter defender a "master of none" and a mere jack of all trades, though.

You think Pippen in '96 pre injuries was > '92?

[Badazzwriter]

kobe
:biggums:

[Roundball_Rock]

You think Pippen in '96 pre injuries was > '92?

Yes. His prime was from 1991-1998 but his peak years imo were 1994-1996. 95' probably was the best defensive Pippen (had the Bulls #2 in defense) but 96' probably was the best offensive Pippen. In 92' his game was not as developed as it was in his peak years, i.e. he did not have a three point element in his game. 96' Pippen prior to injuries came closest to being "1b" to Jordan than any version of Pippen did. That team started the year 41-3 for many reasons but a big reason was having two players hitting on all cylinders at such a high level.

[DatAsh]

Yes. His prime was from 1991-1998 but his peak years imo were 1994-1996. 95' probably was the best defensive Pippen (had the Bulls #2 in defense) but 96' probably was the best offensive Pippen. In 92' his game was not as developed as it was in his peak years, i.e. he did not have a three point element in his game. 96' Pippen prior to injuries came closest to being "1b" to Jordan than any version of Pippen did. That team started the year 41-3 for many reasons but a big reason was having two players hitting on all cylinders at such a high level.

I agree.

[juju151111]

I agree with this. Would you say Pippen has a better case in 97?
No case in 97 either.

[SamuraiSWISH]

:oldlol: at SS calling the GOAT perimeter defender a "master of none" and a mere jack of all trades, though.
Offensively? I'm absolutely correct. He's certainly didn't have the ability to be an elite volume scorer, and he wasn't even an elite passer either. He was just good. Thus being the perfect sidekick.


I agree with this. Would you say Pippen has a better case in 97?
Scottie would have even less of a case in 1997.

Jordan's best playoffs in the 2nd three peat was the '97 run. Which IMO was their most difficult test as a group in the 2nd three peat. Jordan's all around numbers even spiked past Scottie's. All while his defensive intensity never wavered.

Pippen played better defense in '96, and '98 on an individual level.

1997 Playoffs:

MJ: 31 ppg, 46%, 5 apg, 8 rpg, 2 spg ~ Great Defense
Pip: 19 ppg, 42%, 4 apg, 7 rpg, 2 spg ~ Great Defense


Pippen averaged like 15 ppg/40% FG in the Finals that year
Jordan shot 42% in the 1996 Finals, while for much of it being guarded by great defenders and he gets ripped apart for it ... that was Scottie's average FG% in the second three peat. Pippen put up 16 ppg on a putrid 34% from the field in the '96 Finals while being guarded primarily by the Sonics worst individual man defender.

And MJ basically ended the '96 Finals in game 3 w/ his performance.

Scottie at no point was ever better than Jordan when they shared the floor together. Even when MJ was rusty in 1995. His playoff numbers blow Scottie's away.

[Roundball_Rock]

Offensively? I'm absolutely correct. He's certainly didn't have the ability to be an elite volume scorer, and he wasn't even an elite passer either. He was just good.

Ok, so you meant "offensively" and not overall. Regarding offense, he was a top 10 scorer in the league as a #1 option (#3 among perimeter players in 94'). He also still has the record for assists per game in the triangle with 7.0 in 92'. Is that "good"? "Very good"? "Great"? That is a matter of opinion. On defense he unquestionably was great. Also, regarding being an "offensive jack of all trades" there is a lot of merit in having a player who can average 20-22 ppg (via every imaginable way--3's, post ups, off the dribble, etc.), lead the team in assists and then also contribute 8-9 boards from the SF position in a single package.

On 97', the quote in question comes from MJ and is about the 97' Finals, not the entire playoff run (although Sports Illustrated did say Pippen through the first 3 rounds was as important as MJ in that run in an article following Game 1 of the Finals).

[juju151111]

Offensively? I'm absolutely correct. He's certainly didn't have the ability to be an elite volume scorer, and he wasn't even an elite passer either. He was just good. Thus being the perfect sidekick.


Scottie would have even less of a case in 1997.

Jordan's best playoffs in the 2nd three peat was the '97 run. Which IMO was their most difficult test as a group in the 2nd three peat. Jordan's all around numbers even spiked past Scottie's. All while his defensive intensity never wavered.

Pippen played better defense in '96, and '98 on an individual level.

1997 Playoffs:

MJ: 31 ppg, 46%, 5 apg, 8 rpg, 2 spg ~ Great Defense
Pip: 19 ppg, 42%, 4 apg, 7 rpg, 2 spg ~ Great Defense


Jordan shot 42% in the 1996 Finals, while for much of it being guarded by great defenders and he gets ripped apart for it ... that was Scottie's average FG% in the second three peat. Pippen put up 16 ppg on a putrid 34% from the field in the '96 Finals while being guarded primarily by the Sonics worst individual man defender.

And MJ basically ended the '96 Finals in game 3 w/ his performance.

Scottie at no point was ever better than Jordan when they shared the floor together. Even when MJ was rusty in 1995. His playoff numbers blow Scottie's away.
Agreed completely and 95 should of been the year Scottie played a bigger role but even out of shape Mj still outperform him. The Orlando series was close too. A better Scottie could of pushed them to the finals.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Ok, so you meant "offensively" and not overall. Regarding offense, he was a top 10 scorer in the league as a #1 option (#3 among perimeter players in 94'). He also still has the record for assists per game in the triangle with 7.0 in 92'. Is that "good"? "Very good"? "Great"? That is a matter of opinion. On defense he unquestionably was great. Also, regarding being an "offensive jack of all trades" there is a lot of merit in having a player who can average 20-22 ppg (via every imaginable way--3's, post ups, off the dribble, etc.), lead the team in assists and then also contribute 8-9 boards from the SF position in a single package.
As I said. Basketball swiss amy knife. Jack of all trades, master of none. Along with his inherent knowledge of being supplemental help to Jordan's Alpha, made their on court chemistry brilliant as a duo. And devastating for the opposition.


On 97', the quote in question comes from MJ and is about the 97' Finals, not the entire playoff run (although Sports Illustrated did say Pippen through the first 3 rounds was as important as MJ in that run in an article following Game 1 of the Finals).
He wasn't. MJ's numbers across the board were better than Scottie's. All while it was supposed be MJ's niche by that point to be the primarily the team's scorer, and let Scottie take care of the miscellaneous deeds. He's never been on Jordan's level. The closest he came was for about half of the 1996 regular season. That's it.

[Roundball_Rock]

Agreed completely and 95 should of been the year Scottie played a bigger role but even out of shape Mj still outperform him. The Orlando series was close too. A better Scottie could of pushed them to the finals.

He had 19/10/6 that series. He had to dominate on the glass as a SF and carry the load on defense while also scoring nearly 20 ppg and being the primary ballhandler/playmaker. If Pippen had some help on defense and on the glass the Bulls would have won. This is why they needed to acquire Rodman to go from a second round exit to champions. Pippen was notably gassed at the end of games that series because he had to carry such an immense load.

SS, we seem to agree on the essential facts here but only disagree in terms of how to characterize them.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Agreed completely and 95 should of been the year Scottie played a bigger role but even out of shape Mj still outperform him. The Orlando series was close too. A better Scottie could of pushed them to the finals.
Bingo.

Luc Longely blew a dunk off MJ's gift wrapped assist to end game 6, which should've pushed the series 7. Ultimately Pippen just can't score well enough against set defenses to elevate a rusty, winded Jordan that series.

Why? Because he's a jack of all trades, master of none. As I said.

[mehyaM24]

As I said. Basketball swiss amy knife. Jack of all trades, master of none. Along with his inherent knowledge of being supplemental help to Jordan's Alpha, made their on court chemistry brilliant as a duo. And devastating for the opposition.


He wasn't. MJ's numbers across the board were better than Scottie's. All while it was supposed be MJ's niche by that point to be the primarily the team's scorer, and let Scottie take care of the miscellaneous deeds. He's never been on Jordan's level. The closest he came was for about half of the 1996 regular season. That's it.

that has more to do with ignorance - you don't know the game, my man.

saying pippen couldn't score like jordan is correct, BUT how much impact did jordan's offense have despite being "clearly better"? according to the numbers and impact, scottie had a +5.4 net impact to the bulls' success versus jordan's 5.2 .. this makes PERFECT sense because prior to his injuries, pippen was being touted as MVP, even by his jordan himself.

what we can deduce from these RAPM numbers, is pippen being just as much of an impact player (arguably more) despite the lack of volume scoring.

^^ defense, playmaking, and other various intangibles will attain these results.

[Roundball_Rock]

:oldlol: at blaming Pip for the 95' loss. MJ choked away Game 1 and Pippen had no help on the glass and defensively. One guy can only do so much. Once Chicago remedied these deficiencies with the best player possible for them in Rodman the rest is history.

Meyha, I think MJ>Pip but good point. MJ would usually score about 10-11 ppg more than Pippen but Pippen would outpace MJ in assists, rebounds, blocks and from 1995-1998 was clearly the superior defender.

[mehyaM24]

Meyha, I think MJ>Pip but good point. MJ would usually score about 10-11 ppg more than Pippen but Pippen would outpace MJ in assists, rebounds, blocks and from 1995-1998 was clearly the superior defender.

IMO, jordan was a more skilled offensive player, but pippen was just as impactful/more skilled defensive player (if we're talking about the 1996 season).

[mehyaM24]

IMO, jordan was a more skilled offensive player, but pippen was just as impactful/more skilled defensive player (if we're talking about the 1996 season).

and to elaborate on my point, from 1996-98, what pippen brought to the table was pure brilliance. it's called IMPACT. pippen's length and defensive prowess accounted for at least several extra possessions in a game. in the course of a seven game series, that's over 20 extra chances he gave the bulls to score, and they had the pieces to put the ball in the basket. a true difference-maker - and his RAPM (or impact) reflects that.

[mehyaM24]

:oldlol: at blaming Pip for the 95' loss. MJ choked away Game 1 and Pippen had no help on the glass and defensively. One guy can only do so much. Once Chicago remedied these deficiencies with the best player possible for them in Rodman the rest is history.

Meyha, I think MJ>Pip but good point. MJ would usually score about 10-11 ppg more than Pippen but Pippen would outpace MJ in assists, rebounds, blocks and from 1995-1998 was clearly the superior defender.

true. scottie never had the help in 1995 (injuries) like he did in 1994.

its unfortunate the bulls were likely a bad call and finals appearance away (they would have smashed indiana IMO) from a title without jordan. give them another allstar sg, and they likely take it all. they were THAT deep.


BELOW are some great games/clips from 96 pippen:

14 assists vs playoff hornets (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9xPiY4TMzo)
22/18/10 vs. Heat (1996 playoffs - G3) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mL0c61hOuAQ)
best plays from 1996 (dunks, steals, blocks, assists) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wl8Y6k16mgg)

seriously GOAT intangible player :bowdown:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

:oldlol: at blaming Pip for the 95' loss. MJ choked away Game 1 and Pippen had no help on the glass and defensively. One guy can only do so much. Once Chicago remedied these deficiencies with the best player possible for them in Rodman the rest is history.

Meyha, I think MJ>Pip but good point. MJ would usually score about 10-11 ppg more than Pippen but Pippen would outpace MJ in assists, rebounds, blocks and from 1995-1998 was clearly the superior defender.

I get that Horace Grant was injured and what-not, but really, what exactly happened to that 95 team? By all measures, Scottie was an even better player that year. Stronger, more durable, and from my POV, had better highlights ...

Who do you think Chicago could have replaced Jordan with to keep the Bulls afloat? *assuming its an elite 2 guard*

[Mr Feeny]

and to elaborate on my point, from 1996-98, what pippen brought to the table was pure brilliance. it's called IMPACT. pippen's length and defensive prowess accounted for at least several extra possessions in a game. in the course of a seven game series, that's over 20 extra chances he gave the bulls to score, and they had the pieces to put the ball in the basket. a true difference-maker - and his RAPM (or impact) reflects that.

Nah, wouldn't call that brilliant. I was actually old enough to have watched the Bulls then. If you were around back then, then you wouldn't be making a fool out of yourself here.

There's nothing resembling "pure brilliance" about someone shooting 34%fg in an NBA finals. Nor are his THREE 6-18 shooting games in the ECF against Indiana, a series in which Pippen's struggles offensively nearly cost the Bulls the series.
Phil Jackson talked about those two bricks from the line at the end of the pivotal game 4 several times. Those free throes ofcourse came after Jordan's block with 20 seconds or so remaining.

2-16 shooting in game 5 of the 98 finals.
8 points in game 6 when he was limited by his back.
This is not pure brilliance nor anywhere close to making a case for his being equal to Michael during that second run.

Those of us who were old enough to watch them then know this. Don't let me stop you. Carry on box score stalking.

[insidious301]

and to elaborate on my point, from 1996-98, what pippen brought to the table was pure brilliance. it's called IMPACT. pippen's length and defensive prowess accounted for at least several extra possessions in a game. in the course of a seven game series, that's over 20 extra chances he gave the bulls to score, and they had the pieces to put the ball in the basket. a true difference-maker - and his RAPM (or impact) reflects that.

Very good points. I'm not sure Pippen had more impact than Jordan who was the superior player, but yes, Pippen's impact was truly underrated. Too many people get caught up in the hoopla of volume scoring, but blatantly ignore the defensive end (this is where Pippen made his money). As you said, according to RAPM (not a boxscore metric), he effectively impacted games at a similar level Jordan did with the Bulls (his playmaking and lowkey scoring didn't hurt either).

I believe his 1998 finals prior to being injured is a perfect reflection of that. Many media outlets and even players/coaches had him as the runaway Finals MVP versus Utah -- his defense was THAT good!

[AirFederer]

Master of defence you should give him


Bingo.

Luc Longely blew a dunk off MJ's gift wrapped assist to end game 6, which should've pushed the series 7. Ultimately Pippen just can't score well enough against set defenses to elevate a rusty, winded Jordan that series.

Why? Because he's a jack of all trades, master of none. As I said.

[mehyaM24]

Very good points. I'm not sure Pippen had more impact than Jordan who was the superior player, but yes, Pippen's impact was truly underrated. Too many people get caught up in the hoopla of volume scoring, but blatantly ignore the defensive end (this is where Pippen made his money). As you said, according to RAPM (not a boxscore metric), he effectively impacted games at a similar level Jordan did with the Bulls (his playmaking and lowkey scoring didn't hurt either).

I believe his 1998 finals prior to being injured is a perfect reflection of that. Many media outlets and even players/coaches had him as the runaway Finals MVP versus Utah -- his defense was THAT good!

:applause:

[juju151111]

:oldlol: at blaming Pip for the 95' loss. MJ choked away Game 1 and Pippen had no help on the glass and defensively. One guy can only do so much. Once Chicago remedied these deficiencies with the best player possible for them in Rodman the rest is history.

Meyha, I think MJ>Pip but good point. MJ would usually score about 10-11 ppg more than Pippen but Pippen would outpace MJ in assists, rebounds, blocks and from 1995-1998 was clearly the superior defender.
Mj> Pip in 95 his surpose peak years. The series was close has and Pippen playing slightly better could of swung things. Let's not pretend like the Magic blow away the bulls. It went to six and it was a close game. 96-98 Mj was the superior player and best player. My had 2 mbps from 96-98 and 3 finals mvps.:lol