Does God really care about the NBA?

[Thunderfan86]

If there is a God....I don't think he cares about the NBA or sports in general. I don't mind guys thanking God for their physical abilities, but not winning the game.

Why the fvck would God care if the Thunder got beat by a lucky ass shot last night?

[Joyner82reload]

2015

Believing in a god

Come on OP, you're better than this

[SugarHill]

2015

Believing in a god

Come on OP, you're better than this
God loves you even if you shun him.

[J Shuttlesworth]

God loves you even if you shun him.
If he loved Joyner, AD wouldn't have taken a shit on KD last night.

[SugarHill]

If he loved Joyner, AD wouldn't have taken a shit on KD last night.
God has his back for stats. God good with stats

[deja vu]

2015

Believing in a god

Come on OP, you're better than this
I bet you'll be begging God for another chance at life when you're about to die.

[AirBourne92]

I bet you'll be begging God for another chance at life when you're about to die.

not if he lives a life of no regrets

[Lebron23]

2015

Believing in a god

Come on OP, you're better than this


http://larrybrownsports.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/lebron-james.jpg

[Jasper]

god only lov's NBA female ref's

[Richesly]

God is literally a fairy tale.

[LeJohn Janes]

Sport stars thanking God for helping them win things is one of the most arrogant things in the world.

[Nikola_]

If he cared he wouldnt have let kobe score 81 in his 666th regular season game

[Badazzwriter]

If there is a God....I don't think he cares about the NBA or sports in general. I don't mind guys thanking God for their physical abilities, but not winning the game.

Why the fvck would God care if the Thunder got beat by a lucky ass shot last night?
Because there is no such thing as god.

[chosen_one6]

God obviously cared about the Seahawks last season, but not this season. So bi-polar

[Jud]

God?

[Thunderfan86]

God?
:lol

[Marchesk]

Why does God hate the Knicks so much?

[ralph_i_el]

>2015
>Still believes in gods
:coleman:

[eeeeeebro]

if he did bulls would have made a trade by now.

[greatest-ever]

Which god are you refering to? Either way its pretty clear there are no gods.

I don't see how this topic is even appropriate.

[JohnMax]

God wants Adam Silver to rig games for TV ratings

[Thunderfan86]

Which god are you refering to? Either way its pretty clear there are no gods.

I don't see how this topic is even appropriate.
What is it that makes it so clear? Just curious

[beastee]

God doesn't exist. And that comes from a dude who has believed my whole life. The more you know...

[Thunderfan86]

God doesn't exist. And that comes from a dude who has believed my whole life. The more you know...
How do you know that? What is it that convinced you otherwise?

[RoseCity07]

God is real and God is a Laker fan for life.

[Demitri98]

Seriously?

It's 2015 and you still believe there is an invisible man in the sky controlling everything that happens?

Jump out of the caveman era and into modern society, OP.

[pauk]

God doesn't exist. And that comes from a dude who has believed my whole life. The more you know...

http://cdn.trendhunterstatic.com/thumbs/god-is-back.jpeg

[beastee]

How do you know that? What is it that convinced you otherwise?
Science.

[ralph_i_el]

How do you know that? What is it that convinced you otherwise?
The burden of proof lays with the people who claim an invisible sky man controls everything. I don't have to prove he DOESN'T exist. You have to prove he does, or why should I believe you?

[Graviton]

The burden of proof lays with the people who claim an invisible sky man controls everything. I don't have to prove he DOESN'T exist. You have to prove he does, or why should I believe you?
Some basic logic is all that's needed.

Where did people hear/learn about "God"?

From a book, and who wrote the book? Pretty obvious. God is a human creation, just like any other fictional story we read from books. All those religious fanatics were RAISED as such, no human in a neutral position would believe in those fairy tales. Only if those ideas are burned into a child's brain will it actually stick with them after adulthood.

[Kidbasketball20]

If there is a God....I don't think he cares about the NBA or sports in general. I don't mind guys thanking God for their physical abilities, but not winning the game.

Why the fvck would God care if the Thunder got beat by a lucky ass shot last night?

Depends on how Jeremy Lin's year is next year

srs

He literally has had the worst possible luck in every way ever since he left the Knicks

[KNOW1EDGE]

So funny to see people try and dismiss God's existence. :oldlol:

[Relinquish]

So funny to see people try and dismiss God's existence. :oldlol:

It's not funny at all. It's just like dismissing anything else that has not yet been proven to exist. :confusedshrug:

[KNOW1EDGE]

It's not funny at all. It's just like dismissing anything else that has not yet been proven to exist. :confusedshrug:

What's funny is that people go out of their way to troll anyone who believes in God in a desperate attempt to make themselves look cool.

There are a lot of things that can't be proved or explained, but people don't religiously troll those who believe. Only when it comes to God do people go to these lengths to troll.

It is definitely humorous

[J Shuttlesworth]

What's funny is that people go out of their way to troll anyone who believes in God in a desperate attempt to make themselves look cool.

There are a lot of things that can't be proved or explained, but people don't religiously troll those who believe. Only when it comes to God do people go to these lengths to troll.

It is definitely humorous
Completely untrue. I troll the "vaccination causes autism" crowd all the time, as well as people who believe in horoscopes.

[ninephive]

The burden of proof lays with the people who claim an invisible sky man controls everything. I don't have to prove he DOESN'T exist. You have to prove he does, or why should I believe you?
Ok, here are some basic unanswerable questions at this point that leave the possibility of God wide open:
-How do you get something from nothing outside of someone/thing transcendent beyond matter/space/energy?
-How do you get life (DNA) from non-life?

[J Shuttlesworth]

Ok, here are some basic unanswerable questions at this point that leave the possibility of God wide open:
-How do you get something from nothing outside of someone/thing transcendent beyond matter/space/energy?
-How do you get life (DNA) from non-life?
Research Quantum Vacuum Fluctuations

[ninephive]

Science.
Science is literally the study of measurably repeatable circumstances. How are you going to manipulate God into repetition at will? Science is also literally defining the universe by natural causes (rejecting the supernatural by definition), so how could you possibly prove something supernatural by a method that by its own definition doesn't allow the possibility?

[ninephive]

Research Quantum Vacuum Fluctuations
I have, no proof of anything coming from nothing (ex nihilo)...anything found is admittedly ignorance of what's causing it. It's like how we used to think atoms were the smallest particles. And then we thought electrons were. And then we thought quarks were. And then...

Your science textbook will continue to change. We literally used to think the universe always existed. We honestly thought Newtonian physics explained all movement and honestly believed there was an invisible force "pulling" us towards things...until Einstein showed us relativity and the curvature of space-time.

[tpols]

What's funny is that people go out of their way to troll anyone who believes in God in a desperate attempt to make themselves look cool.

There are a lot of things that can't be proved or explained, but people don't religiously troll those who believe. Only when it comes to God do people go to these lengths to troll.

It is definitely humorous

Thats because of the ludicrosity of it all.. And the fact that a lot of 'believers' fanatically push their views on others.. I've never had anyone knock on my door and push evolution down my throat or tell me I will suffer forever for whatever bs they proclaim would cause that.. They deserve it all tbh

[SyRyanYang]

Science is literally the study of measurably repeatable circumstances. How are you going to manipulate God into repetition at will? Science is also literally defining the universe by natural causes (rejecting the supernatural by definition), so how could you possibly prove something supernatural by a method that by its own definition doesn't allow the possibility?

God wouldn't be "supernatural" if it does exist.

[ninephive]

God wouldn't be "supernatural" if it does exist.
I guess you would have to define the term "natural" first. Maybe a better term is normative...so "supernormative," which would be defined as something that supersedes the normative order and laws of the universe (things that happen once, like creation or resurrection).

[J Shuttlesworth]

I have, no proof of anything coming from nothing (ex nihilo)...anything found is admittedly ignorance of what's causing it. It's like how we used to think atoms were the smallest particles. And then we thought electrons were. And then we thought quarks were. And then...

Your science textbook will continue to change. We literally used to think the universe always existed. We honestly thought Newtonian physics explained all movement and honestly believed there was an invisible force "pulling" us towards things...until Einstein showed us relativity and the curvature of space-time.
Well you clearly didn't research Quantum Vacuum Fluctuations like I told you to, but that's okay.

Atheists are comfortable with the fact that there are things we don't know. Scientists are working on discovering things that haven't been figured out yet, which is the nature of their job. The difference is that atheists aren't making assumptions about the unknown. The difference between an atheist and a theist is that Atheists admit to not knowing what caused the Big Bang to occur, where as theists assume they have the answer (an all powerful, all knowing God whether it be Jesus, or whoever). I wish more people were comfortable with admitting that we don't know where existence comes from aside from making assumptions that it's some mysterious god, which there is no evidence of.

[BigBoss]

Kobe

[Cavalier]

I guess you would have to define the term "natural" first. Maybe a better term is normative...so "supernormative," which would be defined as something that supersedes the normative order and laws of the universe (things that happen once, like creation or resurrection).

Just curious, do you believe God is truly an all-powerful being? Does he know what's going to happen until the end of time?

[ninephive]

Well you clearly didn't research Quantum Vacuum Fluctuations like I told you to, but that's okay.

Atheists are comfortable with the fact that there are things we don't know. Scientists are working on discovering things that haven't been figured out yet, which is the nature of their job. The difference is that atheists aren't making assumptions about the unknown. The difference between an atheist and a theist is that Atheists admit to not knowing what caused the Big Bang to occur, where as theists assume they have the answer (an all powerful, all knowing God whether it be Jesus, or whoever). I wish more people were comfortable with admitting that we don't know where existence comes from aside from making assumptions that it's some mysterious god, which there is no evidence of.
I'm fine with your assessment and so, yes, it may seem a bit arrogant for a believer to believe that God created time, space, matter, energy, and life. But for the record, we are holding fast to documents that are thousands of years old in existence and still taking a literal reading of the original Hebrew and Greek texts as inspired and preserved. I understand that it may sound arrogant to believe we know the answer to arguably life's biggest question in that sense, but to be fair, atheists are acting like there is literally something disproving the existence of God. You asked for proof of God and I gave you the same answer Scripture does:

(1) Order (rather than chaos, going against the chaos theory), (2) Life against all odds (very very very x10e1000 lucky to be here perfectly on this planet), (3) DNA from non-DNA, something never replicated in a lab, (4) something from nothing (against the laws of thermodynamics), (5) billions of believers throughout history (although this admittedly isn't a proof, just an expected result in the worldview), and (6) intelligence (which doesn't naturally come from non-intellegence).

You told me to research Quantum Mechanics and the uncertainty principle, which I have (I'm not a PhD in it) and in layman's terms I believe that with the current evidence, it is highly likely that we will find that there is something as-yet unobservable that causes energy fluctuations (think about how we had the same thing happen and then we discovered neutrinos).

[Fawker]

fawk god heysus and other biblical holy figures. they can suck my mortal dick

[ninephive]

Just curious, do you believe God is truly an all-powerful being? Does he know what's going to happen until the end of time?
Yes, I believe like Spurgeon in the complete sovereignty of God (superseding even the volitional will of man): "I believe that every particle of dust that dances in the sunbeam does not move an atom more or less than God wishes"

You're asking 2 different questions here:

1. Is God all-powerful (omnipotent)?
2. Is God all-knowing (omniscient)?

My answer is yes to both, but I believe #2 is a direct result of #1. In other words, I don't believe God just looks down the corridor of time to see what's going to happen...I believe He orchestrates it all with the greatest degree of control.

[Graviton]

Yes, I believe like Spurgeon in the complete sovereignty of God (superseding even the volitional will of man): "I believe that every particle of dust that dances in the sunbeam does not move an atom more or less than God wishes"
Do you think God has emotions?

[Cavalier]

Yes, I believe like Spurgeon in the complete sovereignty of God (superseding even the volitional will of man): "I believe that every particle of dust that dances in the sunbeam does not move an atom more or less than God wishes"

Ok, so then why does he create bad people, knowing they will commit evil acts, only to send them to Hell for all eternity? It seems pointless to me. But to each his own, people can believe whatever they want to.

[Joyner82reload]

Ok, here are some basic unanswerable questions at this point that leave the possibility of God wide open:
-How do you get something from nothing outside of someone/thing transcendent beyond matter/space/energy?
-How do you get life (DNA) from non-life?

it didn't. if you knew anything about science, you would be aware that it is widely accepted that DNA evolved from RNA. Which still occurs in many viruses that produce ssDNA from -sense ssRNA and dsRNA.

Here is your issue, I can prove evolution, which occurs in the human body every nanosecond. You have NOTHING to prove a god.

[KNOW1EDGE]

Where did the RNA come from?

How did nothing in space blow up?

[tpols]

Where did the RNA come from?

How did nothing in space blow up?

A giant space wizard pointed at our rock and *p00fed* it into existence?

[Thunderfan86]

A giant space wizard pointed at our rock and *p00fed* it into existence?
:lol

[KNOW1EDGE]

That wizard makes more sense than "there was nothing, and then nothing exploded, and that nothing turned into earth and all its inhabitants"

[ninephive]

Ok, so then why does he create bad people, knowing they will commit evil acts, only to send them to Hell for all eternity? It seems pointless to me. But to each his own, people can believe whatever they want to.
I hear you and that is a difficult question that scripture addresses on several occasions in particular. I'll give you my shortest version:

"bad people" - We inherited sin from Adam (everyone with a biological father...only exception here is Jesus, born of a virgin). This means we truly were born "behind the 8-ball" - no chance to be "good" (Rom. 3:23). It's like being born in the city we were born in or the race we were...we literally had no control over it. And yet we are held accountable for it.

So, that's not fair. Which is correct and which is something scripture never calls God (fair). It's like how I was born a privileged American who may live a long life without a major disease and some kid will be born in a third-world country with cancer and die a horrible death. Life is certainly not fair (equal for all) and the Bible certainly never pretends like it is.

So God provides a way out of our inherited generation punishment through faith in Jesus Christ and his payment for our sin (those who would believe). From our perspective it certainly seems pointless because it's like God broke the world so he could fix it (which He did...Rom. 8:20-21). It seems pointless to break something so you can fix it, but that's just because we are limited. I don't break my car because I don't have the knowledge or energy to put it back together (or at least I am limited there), whereas God is inexhaustible. It's nothing to Him to do it and He apparently thinks that a world that is broken and redeemed is "better" than one that never failed (something of a much grander Spurs 2014 championship).

Here's the text that explains it best in my opinion: Romans 9:1-26. In short, Paul is basically saying that the world is not about humanity primarily. It's about God, His story, His glory, etc. We're basically pawns (call us robots, puppets, whatever...Paul uses the term clay in the potter's hand). When life is not about people first and foremost, it changes your perspective. Then he answers the 2 major objections to this worldview (v14 & v 19). It's a good read and only one of many on the sovereignty of God.

[ninephive]

it didn't. if you knew anything about science, you would be aware that it is widely accepted that DNA evolved from RNA. Which still occurs in many viruses that produce ssDNA from -sense ssRNA and dsRNA.

Here is your issue, I can prove evolution, which occurs in the human body every nanosecond. You have NOTHING to prove a god.
Hey, I gave you 5 proofs of God. You're just not accepting them. Here's another one: the resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth. 500 witnesses, no body of the most popular man whoever walked the face of the earth (although we have the other major religious leaders), and historical documents released while the people were still living from both religious and secular historians.

Who do you think Jesus was?

[Graviton]

That wizard makes more sense than "there was nothing, and then nothing exploded, and that nothing turned into earth and all its inhabitants"
Why does it need to "make sense"? This is why the question will never be known, we are too stuck in our own way of thinking that we have to make sure everything "makes sense". Wtf is "sense" to a human? We are ants on a rock thinking we have the answers but we have no idea what's out there, it's all just theories. Ancient aliens may have created us from their aborted baby waste, Allah may have farted us into existence, or maybe we are all in the Matrix, hell the Hawks 5 may even be the sons of Christian God sent here to save humanity from Hillary Clinton. Fact is, we don't know jack shit, so stop making up ****ing fairy tales f*ggot.

[ninephive]

Do you think God has emotions?
Yes, a few from Scripture:

God the Father - Jealousy, anger, love, compassion, etc.
Jesus (God incarnate) - Sorrow, agony, abandonment, love, graciousness, anger, etc.

[AussieG]

If there is a God....I don't think he cares about the NBA or sports in general. I don't mind guys thanking God for their physical abilities, but not winning the game.

Why the fvck would God care if the Thunder got beat by a lucky ass shot last night?
He's too busy giving aids to African kids.

People take it all too literally.

Look at the purpose of religion in (every) society rather than obsessing over one and taking every word literally.

[Graviton]

Yes, a few from Scripture:

God the Father - Jealousy, anger, love, compassion, etc.
Jesus (God incarnate) - Sorrow, agony, abandonment, love, graciousness, anger, etc.
Does Christian God fight the Muslim God?

[KNOW1EDGE]

Graviton- no need to get butt-hurt and upset and resort to petty name calling.

If your curious about the definition of "sense" you can Google it. I didn't say things HAD to make sense, merely made an observation.

I don't care if you don't believe in God, I don't think that makes you a "ph@ggit"

Why does me believing in God make me all these horrible things? You seem insecure.

[Joyner82reload]

Where did the RNA come from?

How did nothing in space blow up?

the earliest forms of life evolved via spontaneity. Through the auto-polymerization of ribonucleotides(simple organics), we ended up with the simplest forms of RNA's which had the ability to bond with other sequences of amino acids to form more complex RNA's.

obviously this process took millions of years, which is why it's so difficult for many to come to grips with. our history of earth is very limited, particularly what we see which is what most believe.

let me give you an example of evolution that occurs every day. RNA viruses replicate very quickly within the cell, however in doing this they make many mistakes copying their genome which leads to mutations. these mutations may be as simple as 1 codon, but seeing as small viruses generally only code for a few proteins anyway, this can be a profound impact. Even if the impact is slight, such as it changing one single chemical/physical property of its structure, it completely changes the way certain things may affect it(such as antivirals)

take HIV for instance. HIV is very difficult to stop as it's rapidly evolving. The primary strand will spit out a ridiculous multiplicity of infection, leading to a shit ton of new viruses being produced. the majority of these progeny will be genetically identical to the original copy, however some will undergo mutation. When we introduce an antiviral that attacks the primary strands, which are higher in number, some of the mutated strands will not be inhibited because of chemical properties different from the primary strand(which is what the antiviral was made to stop) These mutated strands will start producing more and more of the mutated strand, while the primary strands will go down in number(whether it be due to antivirals destroying them, preventing their entry into the cytoplasm, blocking receptors, etc). The mutated strands will be the only ones capable of replication and will quickly rise in numbers to the point where they have reached a number similar to that of the primary strand prior to mutation. A new drug comes out that can stop the mutated strand? There are mutations of that strand as well, which now rise in numbers. And by mutated strand, I don't mean 1 single mutation. There can be many mutations for each unit replicated. The primary strand might spit out individual strands with many mutations along any part of its genome.

That is evolution/natural selection in a nut shell, except in viruses(due to the ridiculous replication rates) it occurs over a short period of time.

[ninephive]

He's too busy giving aids to African kids.

People take it all too literally.

Look at the purpose of religion in (every) society rather than obsessing over one and taking every word literally.
You're right if it's not true and we've all won the lottery a thousand times in a row to be lucky enough to have spawned our way into existence at the perfect time.

[KNOW1EDGE]

I appreciate you joyner82reload for answering my question respectfully and actually teaching me something :cheers:

I believe in science, I believe in evolution, I believe in everything you just stated. And i believe that God is the one who created all of that into existence. I have no proof, I can't say God exists for sure and I'm not offended if anyone chooses not to believe in God.

[Graviton]

Graviton- no need to get butt-hurt and upset and resort to petty name calling.

If your curious about the definition of "sense" you can Google it. I didn't say things HAD to make sense, merely made an observation.

I don't care if you don't believe in God, I don't think that makes you a "ph@ggit"

Why does me believing in God make me all these horrible things? You seem insecure.
Because you think I will go to hell and suffer for eternity for not believing in your "God".

[ninephive]

Does Christian God fight the Muslim God?
I'm just human of course, so this comes with a grain of salt. I believe there is one God and in his mercy he gave us revelation about himself (rather than speculation). This is an assumption on faith (if God exists, He certainly wouldn't have to reveal Himself, but I'm assuming He did). That said, you move on to who he might possibly be (everything from Dawkins flying spaghetti monster, which is fairly obvious that he culturally created that as an illustration of his worldview) to the one God (Judaism, Islam, Christianity). And everything in-between (if that's a fair characterization). Now, obviously even in the 3 monotheistic religions listed, there are incredible differences, so you reconcile and evaluate. What are the historical proofs? What does the archeology tell us? Well, it backs up all three of those quite well. In my opinion, Islam has a huge hurdle in that somehow Jesus is the #2 prophet and if you read anything that Jesus said historically, it's overly obvious that He can't be second. (CS Lewis - "Lunatic, Liar, or Lord") Judaism has rejected Jesus as the messiah (which is talked about all throughout the NT) for the reason of kingship. Jesus' kingdom is "not of this world" and they thought the messiah's would be (like King David). There's a lot of other worldview to consider obviously, but one general rule of thumb might be to take the most popular person who's ever lived and if they claim to be God, evaluate their claim (or you could spend your time comparing a historical man who lived and changed the world unlike any other with Dawkin's spaghetti monster, which seems a bit silly).

[Joyner82reload]

I appreciate you joyner82reload for answering my question respectfully and actually teaching me something :cheers:

I believe in science, I believe in evolution, I believe in everything you just stated. And i believe that God is the one who created all of that into existence. I have no proof, I can't say God exists for sure and I'm not offended if anyone chooses not to believe in God.

Theoretically nothing can be proven unless it has already occurred, and even then it could be a fallacy.

I think I should also point out that there was a point in history where science as a whole considered the idea of gradualism(evolution) ridiculous. They believed in a creator backed by catastrophism(i.e. great flood)which wiped out species, and a creator replenished the earth with new ones. That was the explanation for extinction/natural selection. God killed those and put new species out. And this was even current up to Cuvier's time in the early 1800's. However eventually the evidence became far too great for them to deny the plausibility of evolution.

As for the big bang, that is very difficult to prove at this point. The only "proof" lies within the earth's layers, which have differing hydrogen/proton density. Which still only ties back to the theory, there is no true explanation. It's all based on a math model and unfortunately there hasn't yet been a mind great enough to prove/disprove it.

[KNOW1EDGE]

Because you think I will go to hell and suffer for eternity for not believing in your "God".

I never said that. And i dont believe that.

I believe in God. But I don't believe a lot of what religion teaches us about God. I don't go to church and I am not a fan of religion. But I usually say my prayers in the morning and at night and I try to be a good person and help others.

I admittedly don't have all the answers, I have no proof and I don't shun anyone who believes different than me

[J Shuttlesworth]

I'm fine with your assessment and so, yes, it may seem a bit arrogant for a believer to believe that God created time, space, matter, energy, and life. But for the record, we are holding fast to documents that are thousands of years old in existence and still taking a literal reading of the original Hebrew and Greek texts as inspired and preserved. I understand that it may sound arrogant to believe we know the answer to arguably life's biggest question in that sense, but to be fair, atheists are acting like there is literally something disproving the existence of God. You asked for proof of God and I gave you the same answer Scripture does:

(1) Order (rather than chaos, going against the chaos theory), (2) Life against all odds (very very very x10e1000 lucky to be here perfectly on this planet), (3) DNA from non-DNA, something never replicated in a lab, (4) something from nothing (against the laws of thermodynamics), (5) billions of believers throughout history (although this admittedly isn't a proof, just an expected result in the worldview), and (6) intelligence (which doesn't naturally come from non-intellegence).

You told me to research Quantum Mechanics and the uncertainty principle, which I have (I'm not a PhD in it) and in layman's terms I believe that with the current evidence, it is highly likely that we will find that there is something as-yet unobservable that causes energy fluctuations (think about how we had the same thing happen and then we discovered neutrinos).
No, that is not the case. One cannot prove a negative. That is a logical fallacy. The atheists don't have the burden to prove there is no God. The theists claim the burden of proof by claiming something exists.

[Joyner82reload]

I'm just human of course, so this comes with a grain of salt. I believe there is one God and in his mercy he gave us revelation about himself (rather than speculation). This is an assumption on faith (if God exists, He certainly wouldn't have to reveal Himself, but I'm assuming He did). That said, you move on to who he might possibly be (everything from Dawkins flying spaghetti monster, which is fairly obvious that he culturally created that as an illustration of his worldview) to the one God (Judaism, Islam, Christianity). And everything in-between (if that's a fair characterization). Now, obviously even in the 3 monotheistic religions listed, there are incredible differences, so you reconcile and evaluate. What are the historical proofs? What does the archeology tell us? Well, it backs up all three of those quite well. In my opinion, Islam has a huge hurdle in that somehow Jesus is the #2 prophet and if you read anything that Jesus said historically, it's overly obvious that He can't be second. (CS Lewis - "Lunatic, Liar, or Lord") Judaism has rejected Jesus as the messiah (which is talked about all throughout the NT) for the reason of kingship. Jesus' kingdom is "not of this world" and they thought the messiah's would be (like King David). There's a lot of other worldview to consider obviously, but one general rule of thumb might be to take the most popular person who's ever lived and if they claim to be God, evaluate their claim (or you could spend your time comparing a historical man who lived and changed the world unlike any other with Dawkin's spaghetti monster, which seems a bit silly).


Just curious, if life can be created from small organic molecules in a lab in a few weeks(which it can), why do you believe the same couldn't occur spontaneously in nature over millions of years?

[ninephive]

No, that is not the case. One cannot prove a negative. That is a logical fallacy. The atheists don't have the burden to prove there is no God. The theists claim the burden of proof by claiming something exists.
Of course you can prove a negative. I can prove there are no living fully-grown Tyrannosaurus Rex's in my room right now at this moment.

[ninephive]

Just curious, if life can be created from small organic molecules in a lab in a few weeks(which it can), why do you believe the same couldn't occur spontaneously in nature over millions of years?
So do you believe the universe always existed?

[J Shuttlesworth]

Of course you can prove a negative. I can prove there are no living fully-grown Tyrannosaurus Rex's in my room right now at this moment.
You can't disprove there is a flying spaghetti monster on the sky overlooking our problems. Does that mean that the burden of proof is on you to disprove it, or me, the one who is claiming there is a flying spaghetti monster?

[Joyner82reload]

Also I would like to point out one more thing, I am not comparing the two but I do want to present an idea.

You bought into Santa Claus fully as a child. You ABSOLUTELY believed him to be a real person who delivered presents on Christmas Eve. The time when you quit believing was when you were told he was fictional by either your parents or someone else. Let's imagine you were never told he was fictional and instead you were told he died one year, which at that point presents stopped showing up. Would you continue to believe there was a Santa?

What's the difference between that and god? Other than the fact that your parents never told you god was fake like Santa...because, well, nobody told him he was fake either.

Most people will stand by what they are taught by adults if the adults themselves FIRMLY believe in it. Welcome to god, IMO of course.

Edit: Fvck it, yes I compared the two

[Marchesk]

the resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth. 500 witnesses, no body of the most popular man whoever walked the face of the earth (although we have the other major religious leaders), and historical documents released while the people were still living from both religious and secular historians

According to the four Gospels which got canonized. Why should I take their word for it? It's not like it's the only time people have claimed incredible events took place. People do it today with various paranormal and UFO incidents. I don't find them very convincing, and that's now. We're talking about something written in the first to early second century.

[Joyner82reload]

So do you believe the universe always existed?
Absolutely not

Do you believe god created the universe? If so, then who created god? :lol

Jesus, pick up a textbook bro. Read about the HSK theory. I can't give you an extremely detailed explanation as I'm not an astrophysicist, but that theory is one hell of a lot better than hurr durr because jesus

JW, if there is a god, why would he allow many of the atrocities that happen to the innocent? Why would he allow cancer to kill millions of christians every year? And don't give me bullshit about testing other's faith, that's a straw man's argument.

[Marchesk]

In my opinion, Islam has a huge hurdle in that somehow Jesus is the #2 prophet and if you read anything that Jesus said historically, it's overly obvious that He can't be second. (CS Lewis - "Lunatic, Liar, or Lord")

Lewis leaves out out a fourth L, which would be Legend, because he takes the Gospel accounts at face value. But if you don't and you realize that stories grow with the telling over time, and in particular when dealing with someone considered out of the ordinary as Jesus would have been, then you see how someone can easily be turned into a legendary figure. It wouldn't be the only time in history.

There's also a fifth option, but it's not an L. There is the possibility that Jesus was a myth invented by Paul. His writings predate the Gospels, and he has little to say about Jesus's actual life and teachings. Paul's message is mostly from a risen Jesus. But that's a minority opinion. The interesting thing is that Paul admits to never having known Jesus while he was alive.

[ninephive]

You can't disprove there is a flying spaghetti monster on the sky overlooking our problems. Does that mean that the burden of proof is on you to disprove it, or me, the one who is claiming there is a flying spaghetti monster?
Of course I can't because I don't have the ability/manpower/omnipresence/etc. to exhaust the books. Which is what you don't have to disprove God, so at best you should be best defined as an agnostic because you honestly don't know, right? You believe otherwise and haven't had enough "proof" to your liking to convince you, but that's about all. There are millions (billions) of people who believe the historical, archeological, supernatural, and personal proof is convincing enough (not that it can really be measured for what is "enough" as naturalistic science has taught us time and time again through yearly changes to their textbooks).

It's not as though I haven't given proof. I've shifted the burden on 6 issues so far. Here's another one. The prophet Micah predicts that an eternal ruler will be born in the specific city of Bethlehem (a city of 5,000 people or less) hundreds of years before it happens.

I mean, these are all things I'm putting back in your court for rebuttal.

[Imtheman]

Anyone who actually believe there isn't a god is delusional, look around you, things come together too perfectly, there's defiantly a creator

[Marchesk]

Absolutely not

Do you believe god created the universe? If so, then who created god?

There is a way around that objection, though. Which is that if you suppose God is the ground of being instead of a being himself, then he just exists. Something has to just exist, whether it's the initial state of the universe (multiverse?), or something else.

Not that I find that convincing, but it is a way for the theist to avoid an infinite regress.

[ninephive]

Absolutely not

Do you believe god created the universe? If so, then who created god? :lol

Jesus, pick up a textbook bro. Read about the HSK theory. I can't give you an extremely detailed explanation as I'm not an astrophysicist, but that theory is one hell of a lot better than hurr durr because jesus

JW, if there is a god, why would he allow many of the atrocities that happen to the innocent? Why would he allow cancer to kill millions of christians every year? And don't give me bullshit about testing other's faith, that's a straw man's argument.
I certainly appreciate your research on macroevolution, but come on man, "who created God?" Really? Bro, go ahead and take a philosophy course. God is by definition self-existent, uncreated. That's why I asked the question. The universe in naturalism is by-definition not, which is why that's a question for you to answer, not the person who holds the worldview with a supernatural explanation. We've got other issues to deal with.

OK, hurr durr...good one. Do you realize you're talking about the most influential man of all time who claimed to be the God of the universe? Why wasn't he dismissed like Koresh or Jones or any of the other thousands of people who claimed to be God? Because of the historical proof of the resurrection. I know, that worldview challenges you where everything has to exist in the box of naturalism, but try stepping in the shoes of someone who gives life more possibility.

And who in the world is innocent? Where do you get that from a Christian worldview? Yah, it's not about testing faith. It's about God doing whatever he pleases because he's God. (Ps 115:3)

[Marchesk]

Anyone who actually believe there isn't a god is delusional, look around you, things come together too perfectly, there's defiantly a creator

If you reject scientific explanations for how things came together.

[J Shuttlesworth]

Of course I can't because I don't have the ability/manpower/omnipresence/etc. to exhaust the books. Which is what you don't have to disprove God, so at best you should be best defined as an agnostic because you honestly don't know, right? You believe otherwise and haven't had enough "proof" to your liking to convince you, but that's about all. There are millions (billions) of people who believe the historical, archeological, supernatural, and personal proof is convincing enough (not that it can really be measured for what is "enough" as naturalistic science has taught us time and time again through yearly changes to their textbooks).

It's not as though I haven't given proof. I've shifted the burden on 6 issues so far. Here's another one. The prophet Micah predicts that an eternal ruler will be born in the specific city of Bethlehem (a city of 5,000 people or less) hundreds of years before it happens.

I mean, these are all things I'm putting back in your court for rebuttal.
Most atheists are agnostic, and agnostic is defined as a form of atheism... Although I don't necessarily believe we "can't know".. that depends on the definition of "God". None of the stuff you mentioned (Archaeological, Supernatural?, personal, and historical) is acutal proof, so please don't call it such. It's not even really evidence for that matter.

[Marchesk]

Do you realize you're talking about the most influential man of all time who claimed to be the God of the universe?

But did he actually claim that? I know the Gospel writers had him make that claim, although I don't think Mark did. Mark is the earliest writing and there's reason to think Luke and Matthew copied from Mark. They also fleshed out the story. But the time you get to John, you have a full on theology with Jesus definitely being God right at the get go.

But if all we had was Mark, that would have been an open matter for Christians to debate right down to now. I doubt it would have been settled at Constantine's request.

[Joyner82reload]

I certainly appreciate your research on macroevolution, but come on man, "who created God?" Really? Bro, go ahead and take a philosophy course. God is by definition self-existent, uncreated. That's why I asked the question. The universe in naturalism is by-definition not, which is why that's a question for you to answer, not the person who holds the worldview with a supernatural explanation. We've got other issues to deal with.

OK, hurr durr...good one. Do you realize you're talking about the most influential man of all time who claimed to be the God of the universe? Why wasn't he dismissed like Koresh or Jones or any of the other thousands of people who claimed to be God? Because of the historical proof of the resurrection. I know, that worldview challenges you where everything has to exist in the box of naturalism, but try stepping in the shoes of someone who gives life more possibility.

And who in the world is innocent? Where do you get that from a Christian worldview? Yah, it's not about testing faith. It's about God doing whatever he pleases because he's God. (Ps 115:3)

Macroevolution...LOL

More like Virology and Biochemistry.

And Philosophy, let's see how well that applies in today's world.

[ninephive]

Lewis leaves out out a fourth L, which would be Legend, because he takes the Gospel accounts at face value. But if you don't and you realize that stories grow with the telling over time, and in particular when dealing with someone considered out of the ordinary as Jesus would have been, then you see how someone can easily be turned into a legendary figure. It wouldn't be the only time in history.

There's also a fifth option, but it's not an L. There is the possibility that Jesus was a myth invented by Paul. His writings predate the Gospels, and he has little to say about Jesus's actual life and teachings. Paul's message is mostly from a risen Jesus. But that's a minority opinion. The interesting thing is that Paul admits to never having known Jesus while he was alive.
Certainly you don't believe that Jesus wasn't a historical figure. We've got tens of thousands of historically-verifiable documents and fragments and nothing in opposition to that fact anywhere close to the time period. And we keep finding more as we continue to excavate (Dead Sea Scrolls were the biggest find of all time by far and we found them in the last hundred years).

[ninephive]

Macroevolution...LOL

More like Virology and Biochemistry.

And Philosophy, let's see how well that applies in today's world.
Philosophy answers the questions that science can't because it has limited itself not to be able to (ex: the meaning of life). It's a discipline that carries on past our short years on earth.

[ninephive]

Most atheists are agnostic, and agnostic is defined as a form of atheism... Although I don't necessarily believe we "can't know".. that depends on the definition of "God". None of the stuff you mentioned (Archaeological, Supernatural?, personal, and historical) is acutal proof, so please don't call it such. It's not even really evidence for that matter.
Lol, so archeology and historical documents aren't "evidence?" Wow, good luck proving that George Washington existed! I guess we'll never know!

[Marchesk]

Certainly you don't believe that Jesus wasn't a historical figure. We've got tens of thousands of historically-verifiable documents and fragments and nothing in opposition to that fact anywhere close to the time period. And we keep finding more as we continue to excavate (Dead Sea Scrolls were the biggest find of all time by far and we found them in the last hundred years).

I suppose he probably existed, but the guy is presented in such a mythical manner that it makes one wonder.

[J Shuttlesworth]

Lol, so archeology and historical documents aren't "evidence?" Wow, good luck proving that George Washington existed! I guess we'll never know!
Of course there is history that Jesus existed. That doesn't make him automatically god. What archaeological "proof" is there of God?

[Joyner82reload]

Philosophy answers the questions that science can't because it has limited itself not to be able to (ex: the meaning of life). It's a discipline that carries on past our short years on earth.

Yes, let's look to Philosophy for answers. Let's look at the most famous philosopher, Aristotle. The great man that proposed that heredity was passed on through semen coming into contact and associating with menstrual blood. Yep, that's right. Fvck gametes, zygotes, allelles, etc. You're from menstrual blood and semen(not the sperm within it, but semen) mixing together and turning into life.

He was wrong. Want to know who was wright? Science, that's who was right.

[Budadiiii]

Of course there is history that Jesus existed. That doesn't make him automatically god. What archaeological "proof" is there of God?
:roll:

Still here posting away and immersed in yet another religion/evolution debate.

Go outside.

[J Shuttlesworth]

:roll:

Still here posting away and immersed in yet another religion/evolution debate.

Go outside.
Wow. Rent has never been cheaper

[ninephive]

But did he actually claim that? I know the Gospel writers had him make that claim, although I don't think Mark did. Mark is the earliest writing and there's reason to think Luke and Matthew copied from Mark. They also fleshed out the story. But the time you get to John, you have a full on theology with Jesus definitely being God right at the get go.

But if all we had was Mark, that would have been an open matter for Christians to debate right down to now. I doubt it would have been settled at Constantine's request.
Yes, if all we had was Mark, that's fine and true. But we've got disciples that spent years with Jesus in Matthew and John and we've got NT writings that pre-date and post-date the range of the gospels that are testifying to the resurrection and giving the names of people that were there so you could go knock on their door and ask them. Then they released the documents during the time in the region as public because the witnesses were still living and they wanted to make sure no one could say, "well, we'll never know because we weren't there." And we have no historical documents of anyone who coming against those claims.

[Budadiiii]

Wow. Rent has never been cheaper
Using the same recycled jokes too. :facepalm

Your lack of originality is astonishing.

[ninephive]

Yes, let's look to Philosophy for answers. Let's look at the most famous philosopher, Aristotle. The great man that proposed that heredity was passed on through semen coming into contact and associating with menstrual blood. Yep, that's right. Fvck gametes, zygotes, allelles, etc. You're from menstrual blood and semen(not the sperm within it, but semen) mixing together and turning into life.

He was wrong. Want to know who was wright? Science, that's who was right.
Hahahahahahah science was right!!!!!! Yah, let's go check the science books from Aristotle's time!!!

[J Shuttlesworth]

Using the same recycled jokes too. :facepalm

Your lack of originality is astonishing.
Yes because "Go outside" is so original. I love that you clearly think about me a lot though. Which poster are you again?

[ninephive]

Yes, let's look to Philosophy for answers. Let's look at the most famous philosopher, Aristotle. The great man that proposed that heredity was passed on through semen coming into contact and associating with menstrual blood. Yep, that's right. Fvck gametes, zygotes, allelles, etc. You're from menstrual blood and semen(not the sperm within it, but semen) mixing together and turning into life.

He was wrong. Want to know who was wright? Science, that's who was right.
Ok in all seriousness there is bad science and bad philosophy. How does that disprove a discipline? In your worldview (no afterlife) of course science takes precedent because that's all there is. In a worldview with an afterlife, philosophy has a huge precedence for obvious reasons.

[KNOW1EDGE]

There was a man named Jesus Christ who walked the earth a long time ago and claimed to be the son of God. He was nailed to a cross. Those things are fact and are not up for debate.

What is up for debate is whether he was really the son of God that he claimed to be, or just a liar who tricked a bunch of people into believing and worshipping him.

[Budadiiii]

Yes because "Go outside" is so original. I love that you clearly think about me a lot though. Which poster are you again?
:facepalm

You're one of the dumbest individuals on this website. Advice doesn't need to be original. If I tell you to get a job and to make some friends, you're gonna fire back and tell me to be original? I'm telling you to integrate yourself into society yet you refuse to do it. You're content with posting all day on a message board.

This is the NBA forum and you're involved in quite possibly the most tired debate in history. And it has nothing to do with basketball.

Go outside.

[Marchesk]

There was a man named Jesus Christ who walked the earth a long time ago and claimed to be the son of God. He was nailed to a cross. Those things are fact and are not up for debate.

If you accept the Gospel accounts as historical fact.

[J Shuttlesworth]

:facepalm

You're one of the dumbest individuals on this website. Advice doesn't need to be original. If I tell you to get a job and to make some friends, you're gonna fire back and tell me to be original? I'm telling you to integrate yourself into society yet you refuse to do it. You're content with posting all day on a message board.

This is the NBA forum and you're involved in quite possibly the most tired debate in history. And it has nothing to do with basketball.

Go outside.
Shitty post. This is honestly a decent thread with discussion going on and you are trying to troll in it. There's other shit to talk about on ISH besides basketball.

[Joyner82reload]

:facepalm

You're one of the dumbest individuals on this website. Advice doesn't need to be original. If I tell you to get a job and to make some friends, you're gonna fire back and tell me to be original? I'm telling you to integrate yourself into society yet you refuse to do it. You're content with posting all day on a message board.

This is the NBA forum and you're involved in quite possibly the most tired debate in history. And it has nothing to do with basketball.

Go outside.

He didn't create the thread, and we're having an open discussion. Just because you're incapable of an intellectual conversation doesn't mean you have to shitpost this thread. If you don't like it, then

http://i.imgur.com/vmJykir.gif

[Marchesk]

Kobe Bryant was actually the 7th son of a 7th son.

[KNOW1EDGE]

If you accept the Gospel accounts as historical fact.

"Gospel accounts" aside, there was a man named Jesus Christ who walked the earth. That is a historical truth that no scientist, priest or genius mathematician can or would deny. Its history, you cant change history. You can choose not to belive him, but to deny Jesus' life is extremely ignorant and obviously incorrect.

[Marchesk]

"Gospel accounts" aside, there was a man named Jesus Christ who walked the earth. That is a historical truth that no scientist, priest or genius mathematician can or would deny. Its history, you cant change history. You can choose not to belive him, but to deny Jesus' life is extremely ignorant and obviously incorrect.

Take away the Gospels. Would you still say that?

[KNOW1EDGE]

Take away the Gospels. Would you still say that?

Yes. Like I said, it is a historical fact.

Do you think that Jesus only existed in the bible?

There are records of Jesus Christ from an overwhelming amount of non-gospel sources. Google dat sh1t.

[Da_Realist]

The bible is a reliable collection of historical documents written by eye-witnesses during the lifetime of other eye-witnesses. They report supernatural events that took place in fulfillment of specific prophecies and they claim that their writings are divine, rather than human in origin.

Educate yourselves. Take the time to watch this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1XJ7DeR5fc). Accept the truth.


Learn more about Jesus. I would suggest hearing sermons by Dr. Voddie Baucham (http://www.sermonaudio.com/search.asp?speakeronly=true&currsection=sermonsspeaker&keyword=Voddie_Baucham), Paul Washer (http://www.sermonaudio.com/search.asp?speakeronly=true&currsection=sermonsspeaker&keyword=Paul_Washer), Dr. Steve Lawson (http://www.sermonaudio.com/search.asp?speakeronly=true&currsection=sermonsspeaker&keyword=Dr._Steven_J._Lawson) and Dr. John MacArthur (http://www.gty.org/) to understand the true gospel -- they are all FREE. All you need to invest is time.

[COnDEMnED]

Hey, I gave you 5 proofs of God. You're just not accepting them. Here's another one: the resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth. 500 witnesses, no body of the most popular man whoever walked the face of the earth (although we have the other major religious leaders), and historical documents released while the people were still living from both religious and secular historians.

Who do you think Jesus was?
Are you saying Jesus had a twin brother who liked to play practical jokes? Pretty smart scam for a caveman. Tom, the brother of Yeshua, class clown of 37 AD.

[Eric Cartman]

The bible is a reliable collection of historical documents written by eye-witnesses during the lifetime of other eye-witnesses. They report supernatural events that took place in fulfillment of specific prophecies and they claim that their writings are divine, rather than human in origin.

Educate yourselves. Take the time to watch this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1XJ7DeR5fc). Accept the truth.

Voddie Baucham is a husband, father, pastor, author, professor, conference speaker and church planter.He serves as Pastor of Preaching at Grace Family Baptist Church in Spring, Texas.

:kobe:

[ninephive]

Voddie Baucham is a husband, father, pastor, author, professor, conference speaker and church planter.He serves as Pastor of Preaching at Grace Family Baptist Church in Spring, Texas.

:kobe:
Voddie Baucham is awesome...hadn't heard much of his stuff until this year and then went on a kick for a few weeks. Love that guy. A few others to add to the list: Jonathan Edwards (arguably greatest American theologian of all time), John Piper (retired pastor, seminary professor), Matt Chandler, (pastor, church network president), Ravi Zacharias (worldwide speaker, apologetics)

[RightTwoCensor]

Why is this on the main forum but my threads get deleted?

[ralph_i_el]

Ok, here are some basic unanswerable questions at this point that leave the possibility of God wide open:
-How do you get something from nothing outside of someone/thing transcendent beyond matter/space/energy?
-How do you get life (DNA) from non-life?

How do you get something from nothing?
What's more realistic here. The universe has always existed OR A magical God has always existed (no evidence) and he willed the universe into being?

Abiogenesis is how life comes from non life. Organic compounds exist independent of life. Over billions of years, the right random combination of organic materials and catalysts combined and made the first single celled organism. The universe is more massive than you can comprehend. These conditions might not be likely, but over billions of years in an infinitely big universe the correct conditions could arise.


How about this, we have archaeologically records that tell us all about human migration (contrary to the bible's adam and eve). Early humans didn't worship your "God". Why would "God" create people but not introduce them to his worship? Are all of those people in hell by pure virtue of being born before there were Jews? Different religions and worships have sprung up wherever there was human civilization....but only those who worship the "god of Abraham" can be saved? Even people who were born before anyone worshiped that "God" or where born so far away that they never learned about him?

If god is OMNIPOTENT and BENEVOLENT then why is there evil? If he allows evil, he isn't benevolent. If he can't stop evil, he isn't omnipotent. God is all powerful, but he creates evil people who he then sends to hell? That makes no sense.


Hey, I gave you 5 proofs of God. You're just not accepting them. Here's another one: the resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth. 500 witnesses, no body of the most popular man whoever walked the face of the earth (although we have the other major religious leaders), and historical documents released while the people were still living from both religious and secular historians.

Who do you think Jesus was?

Historical proof exists of TWO events in the life of Jesus:
1. His baptism by John
2. His crucifixion

His preaching at the temple as a teen is also likely true. There is no evidence to his resurrection, besides the gospels written years later. Sorry if I don't trust the unsupported word of his followers, that has gone through 2000 years of translations :rolleyes:

JESUS IS A HISTORICALLY VETTED FIGURE. He is not made up (as some people in this thread may think). Jesus was one of the greatest philosophers in history. I was raised in a deeply catholic family. Church every week, and my mom taught sunday school. I know my scriptures. The only ones that resonated with me are the teachings of Jesus. There are lots of positives you can take from the words of Jesus. Just like there are lots of positives you can take from the words of Buddha and Confucius.



Sorry for the TL;DR worthy post. I think about this stuff a lot.
If I were inclined to believe in a god or gods, it would be more along the lines of norse/germanic paganism. If there were gods who created humans, it seems more likely it would be for their entertainment rather than their glorification. I mean, if you can create people and planets, what can us petty humans really do to give glory to you? These "gods" would want us to live our lives for their enjoyment imo. They watch us like reality TV, and those of us who do great or unexpected things can feast with them in Valhalla:rockon:


If the Judeo-Christian god is loving and all powerful, why didn't he let thousands of cultures and billions of people across history hear his words? Billions of people have been born, lived, and died without ever having a chance to worship him. Seems like it would be pretty easy for him to say...give every culture two ****ing rocks with "10 rules to live by" etched in them....right?

[SugarHill]

reported all the atheists smh

[ralph_i_el]

reported all the atheists smh
:roll:

[ATL_Bball_King]

To Atheists, what do yall think happens when you die?

[ralph_i_el]

To Atheists, what do yall think happens when you die?

your body decomposes. What do you think happens to a chimp when it dies?

[Milbuck]

To Atheists, what do yall think happens when you die?
THIS.

Atheism is just an organized excuse to not have morals.

[chosen_one6]

THIS.

Atheism is just an organized excuse to not have morals.

Huh? You're an idiot if you truly believe that.

THIS is why I dislike religious zealots. They believe because I or someone else doesn't believe in their mythical tales, that they are not capable of having morals and values or can be good people. Bunch of f*cking ignorant fools I tell you :facepalm

[Milbuck]

Huh? You're an idiot if you truly believe that.

THIS is why I dislike religious zealots. They believe because I or someone else doesn't believe in their mythical tales, that they are not capable of having morals and values or can be good people. Bunch of f*cking ignorant fools I tell you :facepalm
There are NO moral codes to go by for atheists.

- Pol Pot
- Mao Zedong
- Jeffrey Dahmer
- Joseph Stalin
- Benito Mussolini
- Kim Jong-II

Coincidence?

[Da_Realist]

How do you get something from nothing?
What's more realistic here. The universe has always existed OR A magical God has always existed (no evidence) and he willed the universe into being?

Abiogenesis is how life comes from non life. Organic compounds exist independent of life. Over billions of years, the right random combination of organic materials and catalysts combined and made the first single celled organism. The universe is more massive than you can comprehend. These conditions might not be likely, but over billions of years in an infinitely big universe the correct conditions could arise.

Prove it. How did the organic materials get here in the first place? How did the catalysts get here in the first place?



How about this, we have archaeologically records that tell us all about human migration (contrary to the bible's adam and eve).

The bible speaks of human migration. After Adam and Eve sinned by taking of the fruit of the tree which gives the knowledge of good and evil, they were forced to migrate out of the Garden of Eden.


Early humans didn't worship your "God". Why would "God" create people but not introduce them to his worship?

The earliest humans (Adam and Eve) did worship God. The bible says they Genesis 3:8 says: Before the Fall, God came to Eden to visit with Adam and Eve. There was perfect union between the Creator and Man before sin entered the world.


Are all of those people in hell by pure virtue of being born before there were Jews?

http://www.thinkchristianly.org/how-were-people-saved-in-the-old-testament/


Different religions and worships have sprung up wherever there was human civilization....but only those who worship the "god of Abraham" can be saved?

Exactly.


Even people who were born before anyone worshiped that "God" or where born so far away that they never learned about him?

Romans Chapter 1: 19-21

19 Because that which may be known of GOD is MANIFEST in them; for God hath SHEWED it unto them.

20 For the INVISIBLE things of HIM from the creation of the world ARE clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are WITHOUT excuse:

21 Because that, when they KNEW God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.


If god is OMNIPOTENT and BENEVOLENT then why is there evil? If he allows evil, he isn't benevolent. If he can't stop evil, he isn't omnipotent. God is all powerful, but he creates evil people who he then sends to hell? That makes no sense.

Dr. Ravi Zacharias does a great job answering these questions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1PDLE84NgY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=it7mhQ8fEq0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t7-gP1gC8gM



Historical proof exists of TWO events in the life of Jesus:
1. His baptism by John
2. His crucifixion

His preaching at the temple as a teen is also likely true. There is no evidence to his resurrection, besides the gospels written years later. Sorry if I don't trust the unsupported word of his followers, that has gone through 2000 years of translations :rolleyes:

Dr Voddie Baucham -- Why I Believe the Resurrection (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8PpUb5kJGB0)


JESUS IS A HISTORICALLY VETTED FIGURE. He is not made up (as some people in this thread may think). Jesus was one of the greatest philosophers in history. I was raised in a deeply catholic family. Church every week, and my mom taught sunday school. I know my scriptures. The only ones that resonated with me are the teachings of Jesus. There are lots of positives you can take from the words of Jesus. Just like there are lots of positives you can take from the words of Buddha and Confucius.

This makes no sense. Jesus taught that He is the Son of God. You are left with only 3 ways to react to His teaching. Either He was a madman (claiming something He thought was true but was proven to be false), a liar (claiming something He knew was not true) or He actually IS the Son of God.

If he was a madman, why would you say his teachings are in any way positive since he could have made most of them up?

If he was a liar, why would you believe anything He said?


Sorry for the TL;DR worthy post. I think about this stuff a lot.
If I were inclined to believe in a god or gods, it would be more along the lines of norse/germanic paganism. If there were gods who created humans, it seems more likely it would be for their entertainment rather than their glorification. I mean, if you can create people and planets, what can us petty humans really do to give glory to you? These "gods" would want us to live our lives for their enjoyment imo. They watch us like reality TV, and those of us who do great or unexpected things can feast with them in Valhalla:rockon:

If you understood the gods completely, would they really be gods? If you understood everything completely, even the things that happened before your time, then you'd be omniscient -- a divine trait. But you're not omniscient, as you've admitted. So what you think a god or gods would do is only your opinion and shouldn't be used to support or deny the existence of the one true God.

By the way, Catholicism is NOT Christianity.

John MacArthur -- Is Roman Catholicism a FALSE GOSPEL? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5oLtB0WI57o)

John MacArthur -- Are Catholics Saved? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOs8ra5D3dE)

Some dvds to purchase that goes even further...

Pastor G. Craige Lewis -- Mother of All Gods (http://products.exministries.com/index.php/product/the-truth-behind-hip-hop-part-7.html)

Pastor Eric Barger -- Reasons to Stand with the Reformation and NOT Unite with Rome (http://www.ericbarger.com/tasstore/info.pgs/reasons.no.rome.info.htm)

Doc Marquis -- Catholicism: Which Queen of Heaven? (http://www.itsagodthingproductions777.com/wqoh.shtml)

Keith Thompson -- Reformed Answers on the Roman Corruption of Christianity (5 disk Set) (http://www.reformedapologeticsministries.com/2013/12/our-store.html)


If the Judeo-Christian god is loving and all powerful, why didn't he let thousands of cultures and billions of people across history hear his words? Billions of people have been born, lived, and died without ever having a chance to worship him. Seems like it would be pretty easy for him to say...give every culture two ****ing rocks with "10 rules to live by" etched in them....right?

This has already been refuted. See Romans Chapter 1: 19-21. The unregenerate man does not want to worship God at all anyway. We are born with a sin nature that rebels against Him. Knowledge of Him exists in our hearts but we REJECT it and claim not to know anything about it. Easier to ask a ton of questions instead of doing the research to find out the real answers and judge for yourself. Why? Because you don't want to believe. Well, I have posted answers to your questions. Most are videos but I could direct you to books that would go into even further detail. If you are open to finding out these answers, review the posted material. If you want or need to learn more, let me know. I have more things I could reference. I don't have all the answers but I care enough to search high and low to find someone or something that does.

[ATL_Bball_King]

your body decomposes. What do you think happens to a chimp when it dies?


What would be the purpose of even living, why even have a job, why even have kids...Whats the whole point of existence if we are just living to live this short ass life, filled with grief for some of us. Why are you even typing on a computer if there is nothing beyond life than ISH...smh

[chosen_one6]

There are NO moral codes to go by for atheists.

- Pol Pot
- Mao Zedong
- Jeffrey Dahmer
- Joseph Stalin
- Benito Mussolini
- Kim Jong-II

Coincidence?

6 people define atheism and their morals and values?

But of course murdering, raping, and enslaving Africans and claiming Anglo-Saxxons are God's people and people of color are beneath them doesn't speak for all theists does it?

Or maybe the murdering, raping, and enslaving of indigenous people in Latin America during La Conquista, in the name of Catholicism?

No wait, the Crusades was a perfectly justified reason for going to war because it was sanctioned by the church right?

Let's throw Muslims into torture chambers and drop bombs on them because they're a threat to the US, God's nation!

Coincidence?

[SugarHill]

6 people define atheism and their morals and values?

But of course murdering, raping, and enslaving Africans and claiming Anglo-Saxxons are God's people and people of color are beneath them doesn't speak for all theists does it?

Or maybe the murdering, raping, and enslaving of indigenous people in Latin America during La Conquista, in the name of Catholicism?

No wait, the Crusades was a perfectly justified reason for going to war because it was sanctioned by the church right?

Let's throw Muslims into torture chambers and drop bombs on them because they're a threat to the US, God's nation!

Coincidence?

He's trolling :coleman:

[ATL_Bball_King]

What created Science,

Why does everything fit so perfect,

Why do all creatures rely on eachother to survive,

creatures as in

Protoplast, Earth, plant, Beast, Human...

Without one there could be no other...Science this and science that, but there is so much more to life than whats in front of your two eyes...

[chosen_one6]

He's trolling :coleman:

Probably.

Or he's an idiot.

My money is on both.

[Milbuck]

6 people define atheism and their morals and values?

But of course murdering, raping, and enslaving Africans and claiming Anglo-Saxxons are God's people and people of color are beneath them doesn't speak for all theists does it?

Or maybe the murdering, raping, and enslaving of indigenous people in Latin America during La Conquista, in the name of Catholicism?

No wait, the Crusades was a perfectly justified reason for going to war because it was sanctioned by the church right?

Let's throw Muslims into torture chambers and drop bombs on them because they're a threat to the US, God's nation!

Coincidence?
That is NOT Islam and that is NOT Christianity. Those are warped views of perfectly rational and reasonable belief systems.

Whereas there is a DIRECT correlation between mass murdering, violence, and atheism and it is because atheism has no moral foundation. It is bound to the contrived, chaotic pseudo-morality of an imperfect organism. Follow it if you must but don't you dare tell me you have the same moral foundation as the religious.

[SugarHill]

IF evolution exists, why are there still monkeys tho?

and if god doesn't exist, who is talking to me in my head?

case closed, tbh

[Rodmantheman]

Religion thread in the main forum :biggums:

[ATL_Bball_King]

IF evolution exists, why are there still monkeys tho?

and if god doesn't exist, who is talking to me in my head?

case closed, tbh

Id say listen to who ever is talking to you in your head, and making you feel something in your heart...

[chosen_one6]

That is NOT Islam and that is NOT Christianity. Those are warped views of perfectly rational and reasonable belief systems.

Whereas there is a DIRECT correlation between mass murdering, violence, and atheism and it is because atheism has no moral foundation. It is bound to the contrived, chaotic pseudo-morality of an imperfect organism. Follow it if you must but don't you dare tell me you have the same moral foundation as the religious.

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Yeah you're an idiot. Billions more have been killed in the name of religion.

Also, @SugarHill if you have a voice talking to you in your head you're likely in need of a mental institution. Just saying.

[Milbuck]

Religion thread in the main forum :biggums:
^ evidence against evolution, right here.

[SugarHill]

Id say listen to who ever is talking to you in your head, and making you feel something in your heart...

word

god is everything. without god, how can you know yourself? I had a weird god so that put me away from gods but then I found a chill god and now we tight

[SugarHill]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Yeah you're an idiot. Billions more have been killed in the name of religion.

Also, @SugarHill if you have a voice talking to you in your head you're likely in need of a mental institution. Just saying.
the doctor says I have a mental illness

but he ain't tight with god smh

It is amusing that you picked on that and not the monkeys tho because obviously that one sounded rational

[Milbuck]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Yeah you're an idiot. Billions more have been killed in the name of religion.

Also, @SugarHill if you have a voice talking to you in your head you're likely in need of a mental institution. Just saying.
WARPED views of religion. Humans without a proper understanding of the moral basis that Islam, Christianity, Judaism, etc are built on. It isn't a coincidence that the most notorious mass murderers in history are comprised of those people, and atheists. These are irrefutable facts. Religion in its proper form is THE moral path. There is no other, PERIOD.

[Lexington Steel]

You guys are ****ing losers. You guys, as in chosen one.

[ATL_Bball_King]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Yeah you're an idiot. Billions more have been killed in the name of religion.

Also, @SugarHill if you have a voice talking to you in your head you're likely in need of a mental institution. Just saying.


Anyone who says they dont have conversations in their own head is a lie...Out of all of the thoughts you have in your head. 50,000 in a day, have you never thought of something crazy or out of your character and wondered where it came from...

[Da_Realist]

IF evolution exists, why are there still monkeys tho?

and if god doesn't exist, who is talking to me in my head?

case closed, tbh

Not sure if serious. This is not evidence of God. God may speak to you, but it could also be a demon. Hearing voices is not the litmus test for God.

1 John 4:1-6 says

1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God;

3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world.

4 You are from God, little children, and have overcome them; because greater is He who is in you than he who is in the world.

5 They are from the world; therefore they speak as from the world, and the world listens to them.

6 We are from God; he who knows God listens to us; he who is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.

John MacArthur explains How To Test the Spirits (http://www.gty.org/Resources/Sermons/62-33)

[SugarHill]

oh shit, forgot about the demons

how much of an ass would I be if I was talking to a demon this whole time thinking me and god were tight

demons are fvcking tricky

[GimmeThat]

If there is a God....I don't think he cares about the NBA or sports in general. I don't mind guys thanking God for their physical abilities, but not winning the game.

Why the fvck would God care if the Thunder got beat by a lucky ass shot last night?

He doesnt care.

things in general, just gets in the way of God's greater plan.


If there is a God.

[ArbitraryWater]

I just couldn't explain this world, nature, animals, etc. without a creator. On the other hand, an evil side that tests us, as our purpose on earth is to evolve as humans.

[ILLsmak]

Why is this on the main forum but my threads get deleted?


a sane man.

I don't think it's a question, to me, anymore, whether God exists. I guess it's just harder to define God. I'd say the deeper question is whether God 'cares.' I would say probably so because we are a part of God.

I think most of what is written about God in various scripture is metaphorical. People want to think God is sitting on a cloud that is also his beard. I don't know. God could just be the order that holds 'science' together. People are like LOL U BELIEVE IN A FORCE THAT CONTROLS EVERYTHING. Isn't there order? Don't we have a study of such order (science?)

The idea that science and religion cannot coincide is the archaic one.

PEACE

-Smak

[ralph_i_el]

What would be the purpose of even living, why even have a job, why even have kids...Whats the whole point of existence if we are just living to live this short ass life, filled with grief for some of us. Why are you even typing on a computer if there is nothing beyond life than ISH...smh

wait, this entire time the only reason you've been getting out of bed in the morning is because when you were a little kid they told you if you were good you got to go to heaven....and you just accepted that no question?

Why aren't you over right now in Calcutta helping orphans? Nothing else matters besides getting to heaven right?:facepalm


Prove it. How did the organic materials get here in the first place? How did the catalysts get here in the first place?

They exist and that's not something I have to prove. If you want me to believe a god created them, the burden of proof is on YOU. What don't you understand about that?





The bible speaks of human migration. After Adam and Eve sinned by taking of the fruit of the tree which gives the knowledge of good and evil, they were forced to migrate out of the Garden of Eden.
But these early humans existed prior to any recorded worship of Abrahamic gods.



The earliest humans (Adam and Eve) did worship God. The bible says they Genesis 3:8 says: Before the Fall, God came to Eden to visit with Adam and Eve. There was perfect union between the Creator and Man before sin entered the world.
If you believe the bible....which was written tens of thousand years after the first humans....




http://www.thinkchristianly.org/how-were-people-saved-in-the-old-testament/



Exactly.



Romans Chapter 1: 19-21

19 Because that which may be known of GOD is MANIFEST in them; for God hath SHEWED it unto them.

20 For the INVISIBLE things of HIM from the creation of the world ARE clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are WITHOUT excuse:

21 Because that, when they KNEW God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

So your god appeared to EVERY PREHISTORIC CULTURE...and they all ignored him until the jews came along?




Dr. Ravi Zacharias does a great job answering these questions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1PDLE84NgY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=it7mhQ8fEq0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t7-gP1gC8gM



Dr Voddie Baucham -- Why I Believe the Resurrection (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8PpUb5kJGB0)



This makes no sense. Jesus taught that He is the Son of God. You are left with only 3 ways to react to His teaching. Either He was a madman (claiming something He thought was true but was proven to be false), a liar (claiming something He knew was not true) or He actually IS the Son of God.

If he was a madman, why would you say his teachings are in any way positive since he could have made most of them up?

If he was a liar, why would you believe anything He said?


I know this is hard to understand, but someone's ideas can be independent from each other. Jesus' teachings could make sense in regards to how to treat your neighbors and yourself, while his faith in himself as divine was misplaced.



If you understood the gods completely, would they really be gods? If you understood everything completely, even the things that happened before your time, then you'd be omniscient -- a divine trait. But you're not omniscient, as you've admitted. So what you think a god or gods would do is only your opinion and shouldn't be used to support or deny the existence of the one true God.

By the way, Catholicism is NOT Christianity.

John MacArthur -- Is Roman Catholicism a FALSE GOSPEL? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5oLtB0WI57o)

John MacArthur -- Are Catholics Saved? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOs8ra5D3dE)

Some dvds to purchase that goes even further...

Pastor G. Craige Lewis -- Mother of All Gods (http://products.exministries.com/index.php/product/the-truth-behind-hip-hop-part-7.html)

Pastor Eric Barger -- Reasons to Stand with the Reformation and NOT Unite with Rome (http://www.ericbarger.com/tasstore/info.pgs/reasons.no.rome.info.htm)

Doc Marquis -- Catholicism: Which Queen of Heaven? (http://www.itsagodthingproductions777.com/wqoh.shtml)

Keith Thompson -- Reformed Answers on the Roman Corruption of Christianity (5 disk Set) (http://www.reformedapologeticsministries.com/2013/12/our-store.html)

The largest and oldest sect of Christianity....isn't really Christianity:rolleyes: gotcha




This has already been refuted. See Romans Chapter 1: 19-21. The unregenerate man does not want to worship God at all anyway. We are born with a sin nature that rebels against Him. Knowledge of Him exists in our hearts but we REJECT it and claim not to know anything about it. Easier to ask a ton of questions instead of doing the research to find out the real answers and judge for yourself. Why? Because you don't want to believe. Well, I have posted answers to your questions. Most are videos but I could direct you to books that would go into even further detail. If you are open to finding out these answers, review the posted material. If you want or need to learn more, let me know. I have more things I could reference. I don't have all the answers but I care enough to search high and low to find someone or something that does.

So if some brazilian tribesman who has never come in contact with anyone outside of his tribe doesn't spontaneously start worshiping the holy trilogy....they are doomed to hell:facepalm



What created Science,

Why does everything fit so perfect,

Why do all creatures rely on eachother to survive,

creatures as in

Protoplast, Earth, plant, Beast, Human...

Without one there could be no other...Science this and science that, but there is so much more to life than whats in front of your two eyes...

All of the organisms work together because they ones that didn't fit in died off or couldn't reproduce :facepalm The ones that survived and reproduced in the environment around them thrived, and produced more progeny and so on and so forth. When you remove a species from their environment, or change that environment, they adapt over the generations or they die out. Evolution is real...sorry to break it to you.


If god is the only thing stopping you from being a horrible person, killing yourself, or staying in bed your entire life....you are a shit person at heart

The bible was written by men. It was edited by men. Books have been added and subtracted. It's been translated into languages that DIDN'T EXIST when the bible was first written. Yet some folks accept it as the word of a "God" who apparently used to show himself all the time....but doesn't now so you'll just have to have faith!

all he'd have to do is show himself ONE TIME and the entire world would sing his praises daily. According to the bible he did show himself...but only before we had written history, or only in bible stories.

as usual, the only proof is a 1900 year old book written in Hebrew and Greek....translated to Latin.....translated into old English and French....translated into Modern English....then read by some crazy ass preacher who's particular sect is 100-200 years old. How can the bible be the word of god if the literal translations passages have been changing over time?

[ArbitraryWater]

If god is the only thing stopping you from being a horrible person, killing yourself, or staying in bed your entire life....you are a shit person at heart

people keep saying this... like, does it make you feel smart?

[ralph_i_el]

people keep saying this... like, does it make you feel smart?
no, it's literally exactly how I feel.

What would you do if you theoretically learned that god 100% didn't exist. How would your behavior change?

[ArbitraryWater]

no, it's literally exactly how I feel.

What would you do if you theoretically learned that god 100% didn't exist. How would your behavior change?

I wouldn't give a **** anymore.. free to do what I want, at anyone's cost :banana:


Obviously not at all.. still try to be the best person I can be. But why is it relevant?

IMO the point of life is to evolve as person, and be happy, but KEY POINT: not at the expense of ANYONE else... alot comes back to "treat people the way you want to be treated". Paying hommage to the Lord who made it all possible. Is he a Man in the clouds? No... We don't know what exactly he is or how he goes about his doings, but I like the post smak made on it.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

This thread is ****ed up. Lots of crazy ass posters... :biggums:

[ralph_i_el]

I wouldn't give a **** anymore.. free to do what I want, at anyone's cost :banana:


Obviously not at all.. still try to be the best person I can be. But why is it relevant?

IMO the point of life is to evolve as person, and be happy, but KEY POINT: not at the expense of ANYONE else... alot comes back to "treat people the way you want to be treated". Paying hommage to the Lord who made it all possible. Is he a Man in the clouds? No... We don't know what exactly he is or how he goes about his doings, but I like the post smak made on it.

That's all fine and good when you're keeping your beliefs to yourself. I'm totally cool with that.

The problem is when people try to enforce their religious beliefs via the government. Aka abortion, teaching evolution, health care, global warming, arab relations, gay rights ect ect....

so as long as people's religious beliefs get in the way of other people's rights, I'm going to rant on the internet about it.

I actually have to pretend to be a christian in my daily life. Clients and prospective clients actually ASK me about that, like they wouldn't trust me if I didn't worship Jesus. I make pious noises to get by.

[ArbitraryWater]

That's all fine and good when you're keeping your beliefs to yourself. I'm totally cool with that.

The problem is when people try to enforce their religious beliefs via the government. Aka abortion, teaching evolution, health care, global warming, arab relations, gay rights ect ect....

so as long as people's religious beliefs get in the way of other people's rights, I'm going to rant on the internet about it.

I actually have to pretend to be a christian in my daily life. Clients and prospective clients actually ASK me about that, like they wouldn't trust me if I didn't worship Jesus. I make pious noises to get by.

No problem with this and also agree with the forcing it on people. I don't believe that non believers burn in hell or dumb shit like that. God wouldn't love those people, then.

[ninephive]

How do you get something from nothing?
What's more realistic here. The universe has always existed OR A magical God has always existed (no evidence) and he willed the universe into being?

Abiogenesis is how life comes from non life. Organic compounds exist independent of life. Over billions of years, the right random combination of organic materials and catalysts combined and made the first single celled organism. The universe is more massive than you can comprehend. These conditions might not be likely, but over billions of years in an infinitely big universe the correct conditions could arise.


How about this, we have archaeologically records that tell us all about human migration (contrary to the bible's adam and eve). Early humans didn't worship your "God". Why would "God" create people but not introduce them to his worship? Are all of those people in hell by pure virtue of being born before there were Jews? Different religions and worships have sprung up wherever there was human civilization....but only those who worship the "god of Abraham" can be saved? Even people who were born before anyone worshiped that "God" or where born so far away that they never learned about him?

If god is OMNIPOTENT and BENEVOLENT then why is there evil? If he allows evil, he isn't benevolent. If he can't stop evil, he isn't omnipotent. God is all powerful, but he creates evil people who he then sends to hell? That makes no sense.



Historical proof exists of TWO events in the life of Jesus:
1. His baptism by John
2. His crucifixion

His preaching at the temple as a teen is also likely true. There is no evidence to his resurrection, besides the gospels written years later. Sorry if I don't trust the unsupported word of his followers, that has gone through 2000 years of translations :rolleyes:

JESUS IS A HISTORICALLY VETTED FIGURE. He is not made up (as some people in this thread may think). Jesus was one of the greatest philosophers in history. I was raised in a deeply catholic family. Church every week, and my mom taught sunday school. I know my scriptures. The only ones that resonated with me are the teachings of Jesus. There are lots of positives you can take from the words of Jesus. Just like there are lots of positives you can take from the words of Buddha and Confucius.



Sorry for the TL;DR worthy post. I think about this stuff a lot.
If I were inclined to believe in a god or gods, it would be more along the lines of norse/germanic paganism. If there were gods who created humans, it seems more likely it would be for their entertainment rather than their glorification. I mean, if you can create people and planets, what can us petty humans really do to give glory to you? These "gods" would want us to live our lives for their enjoyment imo. They watch us like reality TV, and those of us who do great or unexpected things can feast with them in Valhalla:rockon:


If the Judeo-Christian god is loving and all powerful, why didn't he let thousands of cultures and billions of people across history hear his words? Billions of people have been born, lived, and died without ever having a chance to worship him. Seems like it would be pretty easy for him to say...give every culture two ****ing rocks with "10 rules to live by" etched in them....right?
Felt like I should stop reading after you wrote that the text changed for 2000 years. Are you serious? Of course it was translated into different languages, but what does that matter when you still have the Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic? Those are the documents Christians hold as inspired, not some recent translation. No historians are arguing from the ESV.

[ninephive]

Huh? You're an idiot if you truly believe that.

THIS is why I dislike religious zealots. They believe because I or someone else doesn't believe in their mythical tales, that they are not capable of having morals and values or can be good people. Bunch of f*cking ignorant fools I tell you :facepalm
Lol, I think you're proving his point. Morality is clearly subjective without an authoritative source behind it.

[ninephive]

as usual, the only proof is a 1900 year old book written in Hebrew and Greek....translated to Latin.....translated into old English and French....translated into Modern English....then read by some crazy ass preacher who's particular sect is 100-200 years old. How can the bible be the word of god if the literal translations passages have been changing over time?
Do people honestly think that our modern Bible translations were translations of translations? Why in the world would you do that when you have the Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic texts? Come on people, think about it. It's not that complicated. You guys make it sounds like we have translations of translations of translations of translations.

[ralph_i_el]

Do people honestly think that our modern Bible translations were translations of translations? Why in the world would you do that when you have the Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic texts? Come on people, think about it. It's not that complicated. You guys make it sounds like we have translations of translations of translations of translations.

So you've read the old testament in original Hebrew and the new testament in Aramaic? NO, you're reading translations.

[funnystuff]

Believing in a superior spirit is actually healthy and can give a sense of hope but you can take whatever is in the bible like a grain of salt. It is a book, nothing written by God or Jesus, it is simply a story book.

[ninephive]

So you've read the old testament in original Hebrew and the new testament in Aramaic? NO, you're reading translations.
Not fluidly yet (still in seminary). But tons of word studies, yes. Ultimately doctrinal studies will be based on the original languages (go read any reputable commentary on a book of the Bible).

[chosen_one6]

Anyone who says they dont have conversations in their own head is a lie...Out of all of the thoughts you have in your head. 50,000 in a day, have you never thought of something crazy or out of your character and wondered where it came from...

Yeah, that's called your consciousness.

If you have someone else speaking to you inside your head, that's not you, that's called being mentally disabled.

Come on...people can't really be this stupid. :oldlol:

Religion can bring people up, but at the same time it can tear things down. I've never stolen anything in my life. I've never hit a woman. I've never been arrested. I work and go to school. I pay my taxes. Don't do drugs. But, I have no morals and values right? I don't give a shit about my family or the good of other people because I don't believe in what you believe in? Get the f*ck out of here with that bullshit.

[ninephive]

Believing in a superior spirit is actually healthy and can give a sense of hope but you can take whatever is in the bible like a grain of salt. It is a book, nothing written by God or Jesus, it is simply a story book.
Well then I guess we can treat all of written history like a story book. Some people believe that Alexander the Great lived because of the "stories" but what's more important is that it makes you feel good. So go ahead, think whatever you want to about him. Lol, wow.

[ninephive]

Yeah, that's called your consciousness.

If you have someone else speaking to you inside your head, that's not you, that's called being mentally disabled.

Come on...people can't really be this stupid. :oldlol:

Religion can bring people up, but at the same time it can tear things down. I've never stolen anything in my life. I've never hit a woman. I've never been arrested. I work and go to school. I pay my taxes. Don't do drugs. But, I have no morals and values right? I don't give a shit about my family or the good of other people because I don't believe in what you believe in? Get the f*ck out of here with that bullshit.
You just literally made a list of the things you haven't done immorally and left out all the things you do. Congratulations, now try God's law and see how well you do.

[chosen_one6]

You just literally made a list of the things you haven't done immorally and left out all the things you do. Congratulations, now try God's law and see how well you do.

Nobody is perfect. Even people that believe in a higher power, believe it or not. Yeah I download music and movies. I have pre-marital sex. I cuss. I drink alcohol and eat pork. So what?

So if I believed in God suddenly that's all ok because "I go to church and my sins are forgiven" :oldlol:

[ralph_i_el]

Well then I guess we can treat all of written history like a story book. Some people believe that Alexander the Great lived because of the "stories" but what's more important is that it makes you feel good. So go ahead, think whatever you want to about him. Lol, wow.

What Alexander the Great did was recorded by many sources in his day. There are 3 contemporary mentions of Jesus from non-christian sources.

Four rules to judge something as historical:

Criterion of Multiple Attestations: Do multiple sources contain the same event?

Criterion of Embarrassment: Accounts that are embarrassing or weakening to the position of the source are considered more likely to be factual (like Persian sources that attest to them getting their asses kicked by Alexander, or christians and the story of their messiah being nailed to a post)

Criterion of Coherence: The account fits in with the other accepted historical elements

Criterion of Rejection: other contemporary sources do not reject the event/account


Our written history can tell us a great deal about Alexander the Great. Our written, accepted history can tell us that Jesus was born, baptized by John, and died on the cross. All the other events of his life can not be proven to be historical by accepted methods.

And there's even less evidence to support the old testament/Torah. Most of the historical events that happened before the Jewish exile to Babylon are only attested to in those books.

It's impossible to argue with devout christians. You've been drilled since birth to have faith in something that defies reason.

I mean, you actually think that 2/3 of the planet, and almost every human to ever live is going to burn in hell?

[funnystuff]

Well then I guess we can treat all of written history like a story book. Some people believe that Alexander the Great lived because of the "stories" but what's more important is that it makes you feel good. So go ahead, think whatever you want to about him. Lol, wow.
My point, good sir. The Bible is a book of statements and stories, which Christianity(mostly Catholicism) turned into set rules that if you don't abide by, you apparently go to hell. Telling someone else they are going to experience eternal damnation just because they had premarital sex is not good for anything.

Religion is the absolute source of evil in the world, believe it or not. And this is coming from a Christian.

[Budadiiii]

Nobody is perfect. Even people that believe in a higher power, believe it or not. Yeah I download music and movies. I have pre-marital sex. I cuss. I drink alcohol and eat pork. So what?

So if I believed in God suddenly that's all ok because "I go to church and my sins are forgiven" :oldlol:
Reported to the FBI.

Also reported for not believing in God.

[ninephive]

Nobody is perfect. Even people that believe in a higher power, believe it or not. Yeah I download music and movies. I have pre-marital sex. I cuss. I drink alcohol and eat pork. So what?

So if I believed in God suddenly that's all ok because "I go to church and my sins are forgiven" :oldlol:
Ok, so that's kind of the point. You are admittedly a thief (small things, intellectual property)...so am I. You have sex outside of marriage...so have I. You get drunk...so have I. You're not held to national Israel's food laws. You probably also are a liar...same here. You've held other things as more important than your creator (if in fact God exists)...same here. And if you're anything like me, you have not "loved the Lord your God with all of your heart, soul, mind, and strength" and have not "loved your neighbor as yourself," the 2 greatest commandments and the sum of all the commandments.

So you might be "good" according to your personal standard, but who's not? The point of the Bible is that "no one is good" (Rom 3:23). We are all in need of a savior not because we upheld a few laws we thought made us moral, but becuase we broke most if not all of God's laws countless times. Jesus paid for the sins of those who would believe in Him on the cross so that God's wrath for your sins would not be taken out on you. The message of the Bible is not to be a good person. That's the message of every other religion in all of history. It's that you're not a good person and can't do anything to fix it, which is why you need someone greater than you to do something for you.

[chosen_one6]

Ok, so that's kind of the point. You are admittedly a thief (small things, intellectual property)...so am I. You have sex outside of marriage...so have I. You get drunk...so have I. You're not held to national Israel's food laws. You probably also are a liar...same here. You've held other things as more important than your creator (if in fact God exists)...same here. And if you're anything like me, you have not "loved the Lord your God with all of your heart, soul, mind, and strength" and have not "loved your neighbor as yourself," the 2 greatest commandments and the sum of all the commandments.

So you might be "good" according to your personal standard, but who's not? The point of the Bible is that "no one is good" (Rom 3:23). We are all in need of a savior not because we upheld a few laws we thought made us moral, but becuase we broke most if not all of God's laws countless times. Jesus paid for the sins of those who would believe in Him on the cross so that God's wrath for your sins would not be taken out on you. The message of the Bible is not to be a good person. That's the message of every other religion in all of history. It's that you're not a good person and can't do anything to fix it, which is why you need someone greater than you to do something for you.

I think my life is pretty good without a false sense of higher power. I'm too logical and analytical to believe in something that I, you, or anyone else has never seen/heard/smelled/touched/tasted. I'd be lying to myself if I said that I did believe. That's just me though.

I get that some people need something to look up to. Something to hold on to during tough times and something to thank for the good times. Something to explain the unexplainable. If having faith in spirituality makes someone's life better, then I'm ALL for it. Really, I am.

However, when people that are spiritual tell me I NEED a higher power to be a better person or that I'm lower than them because I don't believe in what they believe in, then that's where the gloves come off. Despite what my beliefs (or lack thereof) are when it comes to deities, I don't go around telling people they are hypocrites because they don't literally follow the bible or that they're stupid for talking to something that isn't there. I leave them be. Sure, I may not love them...but I only love my family and close friends. I do, however, have empathy for people I don't know. And I do not pass judgement on someone (or at least try to be conscious about when I am judging) until I know the full story.

This discussion will continue to go in circles for days. However, people like Milbuck (if he really is being serious) get no f*cks from me. Those are the ignorant fools I can't stand to deal with.

[ralph_i_el]

So you might be "good" according to your personal standard, but who's not? The point of the Bible is that "no one is good" (Rom 3:23). We are all in need of a savior not because we upheld a few laws we thought made us moral, but becuase we broke most if not all of God's laws countless times. Jesus paid for the sins of those who would believe in Him on the cross so that God's wrath for your sins would not be taken out on you. The message of the Bible is not to be a good person. That's the message of every other religion in all of history. It's that you're not a good person and can't do anything to fix it, which is why you need someone greater than you to do something for you.

God sent his son...for us to kill....so he wouldn't have to punish us?

But he'll still punish us, unless we keep unwavering faith in him....but he won't show us any evidence of his existence.

And as long as you love god....it doesn't matter if you're a POS, because you're going to heaven. If you're a good person who happens to be born in a Burmese jungle in 500 BC....you're shit out of luck and burning in hell.

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: where do I sign up?!?!



I'm actually writing a historical fiction set in early post-roman Britain, and I think I just figured out my hook/twist. I'll have the celtic-pagan gods be real and exert their will on the story, like the Greek deities in Homer's Odyssey. This will be fun.

[ninephive]

What Alexander the Great did was recorded by many sources in his day. There are 3 contemporary mentions of Jesus from non-christian sources.

Four rules to judge something as historical:

Criterion of multiple attestations: Do multiple sources contain the same event?

Criterion of embarrassment: Accounts that are embarrassing or weakening to the position of the source are considered more likely to be factual

Criterion of Coherence: The account fits in with the other accepted historical elements

Criterion of rejection: other contemporary sources do not reject the event/account


Our written history can tell us a great deal about Alexander the Great. Our written, accepted history can tell us that Jesus was born, baptized by John, and died on the cross. All the other events of his life can not be proven to be historical by accepted methods.

And there's even less evidence to support the old testament/Torah. Most of the historical events that happened before the Jewish exile to Babylon are only attested to in those books.

It's impossible to argue with devout christians. You've been drilled since birth to have faith in something that defies reason.
First of all, you don't know me. If you did, you would realize this wasn't "drilled in me from birth." My family isn't religious and we didn't go to church. I became a Christian at 21.

Next, where do you get these unbelievable accusations against Scripture? Lol that we can only prove 2 events in the life of Chrsit. I'll even give you another event and use your own criteria:

Multiple attestations: Yes, 4 gospel accounts...in addition accounts like 1 Co 15 that record the verbal creed passed down a few decades attesting. Add to this accounts from Josephus (non-religious historian) to verify the people's holding of the account.

Criterion of embarrassment: Jesus was first seen and attested to by a woman after his resurrection (which at that day wouldn't have held up in court because the testimony of a woman was not validated in that culture), Jesus repeatedly said things that some would believe made him "less than God": Ex: "Why have you forsaken me?" "Father, let this cup pass from me," Jesus wept, Jesus turned over the tables of the money changers in anger, Jesus got hungry, Jesus was tempted...I could go on for days on this one.

Coherence: The harmonization of 4 gospel accounts (different writers). Add secular historian accounts and you'll understand why the most critiqued book in the history of the world has stood the test of time and scrutiny. And as archeology continues to uncover biblical sites, more and more of the OT especially gets verified (ex: Ninevah)

Rejection: No rejection from modern sources. This is especially proven out in the account of the resurrection with what Paul wrote when he gave names and numbers of the eyewitnesses.

[ninephive]

God sent his son...for us to kill....so he wouldn't have to punish us?

But he'll still punish us, unless we keep unwavering faith in him....but he won't show us any evidence of his existence.

And as long as you love god....it doesn't matter if you're a POS, because you're going to heaven. If you're a good person who happens to be born in a Burmese jungle in 500 BC....you're shit out of luck and burning in hell.

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: where do I sign up?!?!
Please go read the Bible. This is one of the worst straw men I've ever heard. It was painful.

[COnDEMnED]

Christianity is Islam's passive aggressive little brother. Both religions come from dirt land, both religions are bloody in nature. Old testament god and new testament god is like flipping a light switch. Someone in the bible PR department made a smart decision by making god more politically correct in the new testament...you know...something to separate themselves from the other bat shit religions coming out of that cesspool of a region.

It's odd when people look at Islam and go, "You know those ****ers are crazy, 72 virgins, cutting off heads, wearing full beekeeper suits and whatnot" Is it any more crazy than an invisible sky uncle? Or that believing if we clasp our hand and think really, really, really, really hard...we can telepathically have a conversation with...nobody..and ask said nobody for shit to make our lives better? If something cool happens, we go, thanks nobody, you really came through...but if nothing happens, we go, well, it must be in nobodies divine plan? How convenient is that?

Or that Adam and Eve were the first...and we're all just distant relatives reproducing with one another? Then twice removed incest with the whole Noah's Ark thing? You know that was like 2 families on that boat. How did we get all these ****ing people back on earth? The normal person to retard per capita is quite low with all this incest going on. You would think more retards.

How did we get all these ANIMALS back on earth? With only 2 per species..we must have lost a shit ton of species..since you know...animals eat other animals(I'm going to completely ignore the size of the Ark here, in regards to how many species would have allegedly been placed on it. Go to google and ask it how many species of animals we have here on earth. The ARK is said to be roughly 450 feet long, 75 feet wide, and 45 feet tall.

Or that a dude can survive in the belly of a ****ing whale for a few days...

Or that they don't have any mention of dinosaurs in Genesis, or any part of the bible for that matter. For those about to say, well, Adam and Eve walked with dinosaurs in Genesis in the Garden of Eden.. beware.. I will knock you on your ass with science and logic.

It's all a bunch of shit to control an otherwise uncontrollable group of unruly middle easterners in the infancy of humankind. It didn't work (look at the middle east). If you're not living in the middle east, in this day and age, neither of these religions make sense for you. You aren't who they were intended for.

[Da_Realist]

So if some brazilian tribesman who has never come in contact with anyone outside of his tribe doesn't spontaneously start worshiping the holy trilogy....they are doomed to hell:facepalm

I'm not really arguing against you since you already have your mind made up, but I will respond to this quote since there may be someone out there that genuinely wants to know the biblical answer to this.

http://www.thinkchristianly.org/what-about-those-who-have-never-heard-about-jesus/

[ninephive]

I think my life is pretty good without a false sense of higher power. I'm too logical and analytical to believe in something that I, you, or anyone else has never seen/heard/smelled/touched/tasted. I'd be lying to myself if I said that I did believe. That's just me though.

I get that some people need something to look up to. Something to hold on to during tough times and something to thank for the good times. Something to explain the unexplainable. If having faith in spirituality makes someone's life better, then I'm ALL for it. Really, I am.

However, when people that are spiritual tell me I NEED a higher power to be a better person or that I'm lower than them because I don't believe in what they believe in, then that's where the gloves come off. Despite what my beliefs (or lack thereof) are when it comes to deities, I don't go around telling people they are hypocrites because they don't literally follow the bible or that they're stupid for talking to something that isn't there. I leave them be. Sure, I may not love them...but I only love my family and close friends. I do, however, have empathy for people I don't know. And I do not pass judgement on someone (or at least try to be conscious about when I am judging) until I know the full story.

This discussion will continue to go in circles for days. However, people like Milbuck (if he really is being serious) get no f*cks from me. Those are the ignorant fools I can't stand to deal with.
Fair enough...the true message of Christianity has never postured people above others. In a very true sense, I'm just as guilty as Adolph Hiltler and don't believe I'm more moral than him. The Apostle Paul called himself the worst of sinners (and he was one of the most self-sacrificial people of all time). Yah, I'm certainly not better than you morally.

[Budadiiii]

Fair enough...the true message of Christianity has never postured people above others. In a very true sense, I'm just as guilty as Adolph Hiltler and don't believe I'm more moral than him. The Apostle Paul called himself the worst of sinners (and he was one of the most self-sacrificial people of all time). Yah, I'm certainly not better than you morally.
Dude, you can't reason with these people. Their egos are too large to ever accept Christ in their heart.

I commend you on trying though.

[Da_Realist]

First of all, you don't know me. If you did, you would realize this wasn't "drilled in me from birth." My family isn't religious and we didn't go to church. I became a Christian at 21.

Next, where do you get these unbelievable accusations against Scripture? Lol that we can only prove 2 events in the life of Chrsit. I'll even give you another event and use your own criteria:

Multiple attestations: Yes, 4 gospel accounts...in addition accounts like 1 Co 15 that record the verbal creed passed down a few decades attesting. Add to this accounts from Josephus (non-religious historian) to verify the people's holding of the account.

Criterion of embarrassment: Jesus was first seen and attested to by a woman after his resurrection (which at that day wouldn't have held up in court because the testimony of a woman was not validated in that culture), Jesus repeatedly said things that some would believe made him "less than God": Ex: "Why have you forsaken me?" "Father, let this cup pass from me," Jesus wept, Jesus turned over the tables of the money changers in anger, Jesus got hungry, Jesus was tempted...I could go on for days on this one.

Coherence: The harmonization of 4 gospel accounts (different writers). Add secular historian accounts and you'll understand why the most critiqued book in the history of the world has stood the test of time and scrutiny. And as archeology continues to uncover biblical sites, more and more of the OT especially gets verified (ex: Ninevah)

Rejection: No rejection from modern sources. This is especially proven out in the account of the resurrection with what Paul wrote when he gave names and numbers of the eyewitnesses.

He would have known all that if he watched this video --> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1XJ7DeR5fc

He's not seeking answers, he has his mind made up. There's no point answering any of his slanderous, ignorant questions. There's plenty of things I posted that he chose not to watch/read because he'd rather slander than genuinely seek answers to the questions he posted. That's his decision but he's being dishonest by acting like he actually wants to know the answers to his questions.

[ninephive]

Christianity is Islam's passive aggressive little brother. Both religions come from dirt land, both religions are bloody in nature. Old testament god and new testament god is like flipping a light switch. Someone in the bible PR department made a smart decision by making god more politically correct in the new testament...you know...something to separate themselves from the other bat shit religions coming out of that cesspool of a region.

It's odd when people look at Islam and go, "You know those ****ers are crazy, 72 virgins, cutting off heads, wearing full beekeeper suits and whatnot" Is it any more crazy than an invisible sky uncle? Or that believing if we clasp our hand and think really, really, really, really hard...we can telepathically have a conversation with...nobody..and ask said nobody for shit to make our lives better? If something cool happens, we go, thanks nobody, you really came through...but if nothing happens, we go, well, it must be in nobodies divine plan? How convenient is that?

Or that Adam and Eve were the first...and we're all just distant relatives reproducing with one another? Then twice removed incest with the whole Noah's Ark thing? You know that was like 2 families on that boat. How did we get all these ****ing people back on earth? The normal person to retard per capita is quite low with all this incest going on. You would think more retards.

How did we get all these ANIMALS back on earth? With only 2 per species..we must have lost a shit ton of species..since you know...animals eat other animals(I'm going to completely ignore the size of the Ark here, in regards to how many species would have allegedly been placed on it. Go to google and ask it how many species of animals we have here on earth. The ARK is said to be roughly 450 feet long, 75 feet wide, and 45 feet tall.

Or that a dude can survive in the belly of a ****ing whale for a few days...

Or that they don't have any mention of dinosaurs in Genesis, or any part of the bible for that matter. For those about to say, well, Adam and Eve walked with dinosaurs in Genesis in the Garden of Eden.. beware.. I will knock you on your ass with science and logic.

It's all a bunch of shit to control an otherwise uncontrollable group of unruly middle easterners in the infancy of humankind. It didn't work (look at the middle east). If you're not living in the middle east, in this day and age, neither of these religions make sense for you. You aren't who they were intended for.
I don't have time to answer all the straw man arguments here, but there is a reason for people who study the Bible and why it continues to be the most widespread literature of all time (and accelerating throughout the world). Don't just quip "someone in the PR department." Give us actual theories of how in the world the Bible continues to be historically verified? How in the world do we not just "forget" that man that called himself God and was said to have done dozens of miracles over the course of 3 years. How did 500 people see him for 40 days after his crucifixion?

[Funnyfuka]

we are animals spawned automatically without choosing it to fight each others for limited ressources and partners of reproduction indefinitely until we cant adapt anymore and are wiped by some random cataclysm or by self destruction. The invention of god(s) allow us to look up to a perfect eternal all mighty animal who would control everyone and everything. This deep wish of total control is the result of another typical animal behavior. Our inner animality, bestiality, wish for control, power (=better odds of survival, the strongest, fittest, survives) made us create god(s).

[ralph_i_el]

First of all, you don't know me. If you did, you would realize this wasn't "drilled in me from birth." My family isn't religious and we didn't go to church. I became a Christian at 21.

Next, where do you get these unbelievable accusations against Scripture? Lol that we can only prove 2 events in the life of Chrsit. I'll even give you another event and use your own criteria:

Multiple attestations: Yes, 4 gospel accounts...in addition accounts like 1 Co 15 that record the verbal creed passed down a few decades attesting. Add to this accounts from Josephus (non-religious historian) to verify the people's holding of the account.

Criterion of embarrassment: Jesus was first seen and attested to by a woman after his resurrection (which at that day wouldn't have held up in court because the testimony of a woman was not validated in that culture), Jesus repeatedly said things that some would believe made him "less than God": Ex: "Why have you forsaken me?" "Father, let this cup pass from me," Jesus wept, Jesus turned over the tables of the money changers in anger, Jesus got hungry, Jesus was tempted...I could go on for days on this one.

Coherence: The harmonization of 4 gospel accounts (different writers). Add secular historian accounts and you'll understand why the most critiqued book in the history of the world has stood the test of time and scrutiny. And as archeology continues to uncover biblical sites, more and more of the OT especially gets verified (ex: Ninevah)

Rejection: No rejection from modern sources. This is especially proven out in the account of the resurrection with what Paul wrote when he gave names and numbers of the eyewitnesses.

The four gospel accounts were all compiled by the same organization, and no historian worth his salt would count that as multiple attestations. No attestations from anyone outside the tiny christian minority exist in reference to the Resurrection. Multiple do for his death...wouldn't his Resurrection be bigger news than his death? Why didn't anyone outside of the gospels write about it?

And counting the 4 gospel accounts for coherence? They were all vetted by the same people and compiled into a book...of course they are going to be nearly coherent. Plenty of books didn't make the cut for the bible because they were off message.

The criterion of rejection wouldn't be applicable to the resurrection, because it's dependent on outside sources even acknowledging an event took place. Look at it this way...if no one was talking about an event at the time, why would anyone be motivated to disprove it? There isn't accepted proof that the gospels were written by contemporaries of Jesus.


If you became a christian at 21 and are in the seminary, you're a special kind of crazy.

[Funnyfuka]

we all take pleasure into other people's failures, because it means better odds of survival for us. We are animals, spirituality is hypocrisy hiding what we truly are.

[ralph_i_el]

I don't have time to answer all the straw man arguments here, but there is a reason for people who study the Bible and why it continues to be the most widespread literature of all time (and accelerating throughout the world). Don't just quip "someone in the PR department." Give us actual theories of how in the world the Bible continues to be historically verified? How in the world do we not just "forget" that man that called himself God and was said to have done dozens of miracles over the course of 3 years. How did 500 people see him for 40 days after his crucifixion?

Just because places referenced in the bible have been proven to exist via archaeology, doesn't mean the events of the bible are true. That just means it was written by someone that lived in the area within a few hundred years of whatever they were writing about.

Why didn't we "forget" Jesus? Firstly, the jewish scribes kept pretty good records of stuff that was going on (the talmund contains reference to jesus' death...no resurrection). Secondly, Christianity spread quickly due to the Roman slave trade. Christianity was a religion for the poor and slaves, because up until that point most religions focused on local deities, and were controlled by the powerful political figures of the area. Jesus preached to the meek/weak/poor/evil ect ect... so obviously it's going to catch on with those types of people (which just happen to be most people).

Christianity was the original viral idea. It was able to spread because (like Buddhism, Confucianism, Hinduism) it arose during the Iron Age, where iron tools made it much easier to make ships....ships made it much easier to travel....travel and trade created cultural diffusion where ideas and religions could spread further than ever before. That's why up until the Iron Age religions were local instead of widespread.

500 people did not see Jesus after his crucifixion. Biblical sources TELL YOU that 500 people saw Jesus after his crucifixion. These aren't independent sources, they don't come from outside of Christianity, they weren't debated in their day, and most importantly PEOPLE DON'T COME BACK FROM THE DEAD:facepalm

[Funnyfuka]

Yeah, that's called your consciousness.

If you have someone else speaking to you inside your head, that's not you, that's called being mentally disabled.

Come on...people can't really be this stupid. :oldlol:

Religion can bring people up, but at the same time it can tear things down. I've never stolen anything in my life. I've never hit a woman. I've never been arrested. I work and go to school. I pay my taxes. Don't do drugs. But, I have no morals and values right? I don't give a shit about my family or the good of other people because I don't believe in what you believe in? Get the f*ck out of here with that bullshit.as animals we only care about those who maintain or improve our odds of survival and are designed to eliminate the competition. We ignore the weak as they can hinder our own odds of survival. We only take care of them if we can get something in return; a salary or advices on how to improve our own odds of survival. Noone who s alive is innocent; we all step on each others heads to insure our own survival, defend our own interests. For every winner, there s always a loser. We all worship and respect strenght, winners, and despise weakness and "losers" because they are inadapted / closer to death. What is successful at killing instead of being killed, is worth of admiration, is "full of life" and "inspiring", because as animals we all identify the good strategies of survival or our role models in order to embed them into our own skillset in order to improve our own odds of survival.

We re just a bunch of animals, just another animal specie, where the strongest prey on the weakest and the cycle keeps going on and on and on. Probably the same shit is happening everywhere there s "life" in the universe. There is no real "meaning" to be found, being succesful at surviving, killing instead of being killed, makes one feel "good", while seeing your odds of survival decline makes you feel depressed, "bad". We re not meant to be happy, happiness just happen to occur when you re successful at insureing your own survival, often at the detriment of others survival.

Life is constant war, and war is cruel. As a result life is cruel and intrinsically absurd. We just invented religions and philosophies to cope with the idea of the intrinsical absurdity and brutality of life, a never ending self sustaining butchery.

Life is unfair, it s not the nice who survives, but the biggest asshole. Intelligence is just being better at killing others instead of being killed by them. Life constantly generates inequality. Inequalities constantly generate suffering. Life constantly generates suffering. To end suffering you d have to end life itself.

[ninephive]

Just because places referenced in the bible have been proven to exist via archaeology, doesn't mean the events of the bible are true. That just means it was written by someone that lived in the area within a few hundred years of whatever they were writing about.

Why didn't we "forget" Jesus? Firstly, the jewish scribes kept pretty good records of stuff that was going on (the talmund contains reference to jesus' death...no resurrection). Secondly, Christianity spread quickly due to the Roman slave trade. Christianity was a religion for the poor and slaves, because up until that point most religions focused on local deities, and were controlled by the powerful political figures of the area. Jesus preached to the meek/weak/poor/evil ect ect... so obviously it's going to catch on with those types of people (which just happen to be most people).

Christianity was the original viral idea. It was able to spread because (like Buddhism, Confucianism, Hinduism) it arose during the Iron Age, where iron tools made it much easier to make ships....ships made it much easier to travel....travel and trade created cultural diffusion where ideas and religions could spread further than ever before. That's why up until the Iron Age religions were local instead of widespread.

500 people did not see Jesus after his crucifixion. Biblical sources TELL YOU that 500 people saw Jesus after his crucifixion. These aren't independent sources, they don't come from outside of Christianity, they weren't debated in their day, and most importantly PEOPLE DON'T COME BACK FROM THE DEAD:facepalm
This is where your argument fails miserably. This would be like someone telling Einstein "Time doesn't change for people!" or "Space isn't warped!" You have a predisposed idea that because you've never seen anyone come back from the dead and have never met anyone who has, that there's no way anyone could possibly do it.

[LeJohn Janes]

There are NO moral codes to go by for atheists.

- Pol Pot
- Mao Zedong
- Jeffrey Dahmer
- Joseph Stalin
- Benito Mussolini
- Kim Jong-II

Coincidence?

[ralph_i_el]

This is where your argument fails miserably. This would be like someone telling Einstein "Time doesn't change for people!" or "Space isn't warped!" You have a predisposed idea that because you've never seen anyone come back from the dead and have never met anyone who has, that there's no way anyone could possibly do it.

The difference is we've barely experimented on time and space...whereas billions upon billions of people have died...but none of them come back (except for that one time where a couple guys said their buddy came back after the Romans killed him, when they were writing it down 50 years later).

I'd like to think that people understand a lot more about death than they do about time and space, considering we haven't had the tools to be able to observe and experiment on space time for any significant amount of time in human history.


What it all boils down to is that you accept a book, that was put together by the leaders of your religion almost 2000 years ago, as fact above all else. You're going to spend your entire life rationalizing your illogical beliefs, and then you are going to die. When you die, you'll be buried in the ground and worms will eat you. You won't go to heaven or hell. Hopefully your friends and family will remember you, but after a few decades, you'll probably be forgotten, just like all but the choose few who did something great or infamous to cement their name in history.

My god is history.

[COnDEMnED]

I don't have time to answer all the straw man arguments here, but there is a reason for people who study the Bible and why it continues to be the most widespread literature of all time (and accelerating throughout the world). Don't just quip "someone in the PR department." Give us actual theories of how in the world the Bible continues to be historically verified? How in the world do we not just "forget" that man that called himself God and was said to have done dozens of miracles over the course of 3 years. How did 500 people see him for 40 days after his crucifixion?
The other most widespread literature after the bible include the lord of the ****ing rings, A tale of two cities, the alchemist, the chronicles of Narnia, black beauty, the catcher in the rye, and charlottes web. Sales of a book does not equate to followings of a book. Nobody disagrees people on earth like a little fiction to pass the time.

As for Yeshua, sure he was a real dude. Would modern David Copperfield with a deck of cards and some mirrors be regarded as a god in the eyes of simple minded sheep herders in the time of human infancy? Probably. Water to wine, endless supply of fish from a handful, manna from the sky, healing the cripple, curing leprosy....is your card the King of Hearts? All bullshit. Parlor tricks. As for his resurrection...if you wanted to pull that kinda crap off today, you would use identical twins. Can you disprove the use of twins? Was the card the Ace of Spades?

[ninephive]

The four gospel accounts were all compiled by the same organization, and no historian worth his salt would count that as multiple attestations. No attestations from anyone outside the tiny christian minority exist in reference to the Resurrection. Multiple do for his death...wouldn't his Resurrection be bigger news than his death? Why didn't anyone outside of the gospels write about it?

And counting the 4 gospel accounts for coherence? They were all vetted by the same people and compiled into a book...of course they are going to be nearly coherent. Plenty of books didn't make the cut for the bible because they were off message.

The criterion of rejection wouldn't be applicable to the resurrection, because it's dependent on outside sources even acknowledging an event took place. Look at it this way...if no one was talking about an event at the time, why would anyone be motivated to disprove it? There isn't accepted proof that the gospels were written by contemporaries of Jesus.


If you became a christian at 21 and are in the seminary, you're a special kind of crazy.
Of course the people who reported the resurrection would have been believers. They saw him resurrected. You don't get to throw out historical documents because the people shared a worldview (one that was literally directly affected by the event). You don't see how those things are tied?

And of course there would have been more historical evidence for the crucifixion. It was a public event with thousands in attendance and it was an official trial involving the Pharisees and other Jewish officials (who brought an official charge of blasphemy), Judea (in front of the governor Pontius Pilate), and Rome (Caesar). Thus, you had more cause for official documentation that would have been preserved. The resurrection had nothing to do with the court system or the Jewish temple. This is why you have to go to personal eyewitness accounts for the records, which you're acting like is not good enough. The documentation of the New Testament (especially the gospel accounts) is so far beyond the burden of proof for what is widely accepted as "fact" in other ancient literature it's ridiculous. Most of the time with literature that old we have documents dated hundreds if not thousands of years later and often times less than a dozen. With the New Testament, we have (at the most conservative estimate) 5,000+ documents and fragments and to top it off we have them in the same century (many within the actual lifetime of the writer!). That's unprecedented for literature that ancient, so stop trying to act like that's not good enough. What did you want, for archeology to put find the author's bones next to the letters with pen in hand?

[ninephive]

The other most widespread literature after the bible include the lord of the ****ing rings, A tale of two cities, the alchemist, the chronicles of Narnia, black beauty, the catcher in the rye, and charlottes web. Sales of a book does not equate to followings of a book. Nobody disagrees people on earth like a little fiction to pass the time.

As for Yeshua, sure he was a real dude. Would modern David Copperfield with a deck of cards and some mirrors be regarded as a god in the eyes of simple minded sheep herders in the time of human infancy? Probably. Water to wine, endless supply of fish from a handful, manna from the sky, healing the cripple, curing leprosy....is your card the King of Hearts? All bullshit. Parlor tricks. As for his resurrection...if you wanted to pull that kinda crap off today, you would use identical twins. Can you disprove the use of twins? Was the card the Ace of Spades?
Lol, my argument is not that sales=accuracy. It's that the Bible is so transcendent, it literally sells better than any concocted fiction (as you pointed out, the other best-sellers). It's literally in the category at (and above) reading for fun (and it's a collection of historical documents).

And you're actually going with the twin theory on the resurrection? This is good, because in that theory you are saying that Jesus (or his "twin") was alive after his crucifixion. Pit this against the other people on the board saying Jesus wasn't alive after Calvary and you've got quite the problem. Your solution: identical twins. Having identical twins myself, I could see how you could pull it off. Here's the problem...where in the world is the least shred of evidence that Jesus had a twin brother, especially after how scrutinized Mary's pregnancy was because of the prophetic implications and because Joseph was telling people they never slept together?

[ralph_i_el]

Of course the people who reported the resurrection would have been believers. They saw him resurrected. You don't get to throw out historical documents because the people shared a worldview (one that was literally directly affected by the event). You don't see how those things are tied?

And of course there would have been more historical evidence for the crucifixion. It was a public event with thousands in attendance and it was an official trial involving the Pharisees and other Jewish officials (who brought an official charge of blasphemy), Judea (in front of the governor Pontius Pilate), and Rome (Caesar). Thus, you had more cause for official documentation that would have been preserved. The resurrection had nothing to do with the court system or the Jewish temple. This is why you have to go to personal eyewitness accounts for the records, which you're acting like is not good enough. The documentation of the New Testament (especially the gospel accounts) is so far beyond the burden of proof for what is widely accepted as "fact" in other ancient literature it's ridiculous. Most of the time with literature that old we have documents dated hundreds if not thousands of years later and often times less than a dozen. With the New Testament, we have (at the most conservative estimate) 5,000+ documents and fragments and to top it off we have them in the same century (many within the actual lifetime of the writer!). That's unprecedented for literature that ancient, so stop trying to act like that's not good enough. What did you want, for archeology to put find the author's bones next to the letters with pen in hand?

If thousands of people saw him tried and executed, and then he came back, and it was public knowledge that he came back, it would have been just as widely documented as his trial. Most likely the story of his resurrection wasn't invented until many years after his death. The evidence we have is christians telling other christians and potential converts about how their messiah can transcend death. There's no documentation of his resurrection outside of the church, and the information we have via the gospels was not written at the time. If a man who was very publicly tried and executed came back from the dead, it's something that would have been widely talked about and recorded, not something thats most recent documentation came into being many years after the event itself. You're doing all sorts of mental gymnastics to try and rationalize a 2000 year old myth.


I haven't even touched the fact that for a large portion of European history the Catholic Church was the most powerful secular and academic force, and therefore the history we have today is permanently skewed by a force that has direct motivation to propagate the myth of Jesus' divinity.

[buddha]

god cares only about but one thing

http://i.imgur.com/xbXkybG.jpg

[ninephive]

If thousands of people saw him tried and executed, and then he came back, and it was public knowledge that he came back, it would have been just as widely documented as his trial. Most likely the story of his resurrection wasn't invented until many years after his death. The evidence we have is christians telling other christians and potential converts about how their messiah can transcend death. There's no documentation of his resurrection outside of the church, and the information we have via the gospels was not written at the time. If a man who was very publicly tried and executed came back from the dead, it's something that would have been widely talked about and recorded, not something thats most recent documentation came into being many years after the event itself. You're doing all sorts of mental gymnastics to try and rationalize a 2000 year old myth.


I haven't even touched the fact that for a large portion of European history the Catholic Church was the most powerful secular and academic force, and therefore the history we have today is permanently skewed by a force that has direct motivation to propagate the myth of Jesus' divinity.
So what's your theory? That his body was/is in Joseph of Arimathea's tomb?

[ralph_i_el]

So what's your theory? That his body was/is in Joseph of Arimathea's tomb?

could be:confusedshrug: Could have been moved by his own followers to support the legend. Could have been moved by the Romans to prevent it from being a place of veneration by his followers. Could be that Jesus' skeleton is still sitting in a cave. Could be that it was never interred in Joseph's tomb at all. Joseph could be made up. Do you believe that Jospeh of Arimathea sailed to Britain and started a catholic church?

The Romans had a habit of destroying the potential sites of worship for religions that were seen as dangerous to the peace of the empire.

For instance, in 60 AD the Romans attacked Isle of Ynys Mon (modern day Anglesey), killing the celtic-pagan druids, burning their holy groves, and destroying their shrine.



There's and old saying that I think is applicable in the context of this discussion. "Never wrestle a pig in the mud. You'll get dirty and soon you'll learn the pig enjoys it" I'm the pig in this case:roll:

[SugarHill]

This is where your argument fails miserably. This would be like someone telling Einstein "Time doesn't change for people!" or "Space isn't warped!" You have a predisposed idea that because you've never seen anyone come back from the dead and have never met anyone who has, that there's no way anyone could possibly do it.
:roll:

[Jud]

This thread turned it's discussion FAST. Went from basketball to god/religion stuff :oldlol:

[Milbuck]

[QUOTE=LeJohn Janes]

[SugarHill]

This thread turned it's discussion FAST. Went from basketball to god/religion stuff :oldlol:

Which god do you think has the best game based on the eye test?

I think this one

http://www.shreehindutemple.net/wp-content/media/2011/07/gayathri-mata.jpg

too much to handle on the perimeter :biggums:

[305Baller]

god created master bation for us all

[Milbuck]

Which god do you think has the best game based on the eye test?

I think this one

http://www.shreehindutemple.net/wp-content/media/2011/07/gayathri-mata.jpg

too much to handle on the perimeter :biggums:
http://www.alimun.com/images/81918-lord-hanuman.jpg

Dude would fit right in

[ralph_i_el]

These are all opinions backed by NOTHING. I can just as easily say Osama was an atheist. Doesn't make it true.

The reality is, atheism is linked and locked with a dangerous lack of moral understanding. There is no compass, there is no guide. There are only the severely distorted views of reality created by humans, with "no" higher power to lay out the path.

Resist at your own peril.

On what basis is atheism linked to a "dangerous lack of moral understanding"?

[zoom17]

http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20140923201833/disney-infinity/images/0/01/Abandon-Thread.gif

[305Baller]

why would god create the devil?

[Da_Realist]

why would god create the devil?

http://www.gotquestions.org/if-God-knew.html

In addition to this ^^

Everything God has done and will do is meant to bring Him glory. As the article mentions, God did not create the devil, he created Lucifer -- the wisest, most beautiful, most intelligent, most talented being ever created. Lucifer made himself the devil by aspiring to be like "The Most High". Not only did Lucifer sin, but he tried to inspire a revolt against God -- eventually convincing a third of the angels to side with him. (You'd have to be pretty smart to convince perfect beings to sin against the God they were in communion with since they were created. All after Adam and Eve were created with a sin nature (predisposed to sin) so sin doesn't look as revolting to us as it does to perfect beings. You'd have to understand how disgusting sin really is to understand how large a task it was to convince perfect angels to do it. How smart would I need to be to convince you to eat a bucket full of sh*t?) So God struck Lucifer out of heaven (God is Holy and can't have sin in His presence) and a third of the angels with him.

God preordained that it would bring Him glory to show His redemption plan for human beings. It also brings Him glory that the 2nd person of the Trinity (Jesus) changed his very nature to do it. Jesus, being God, wrapped himself in flesh and lived among us in perfect accordance to God's law, was sacrificed as God's lamb and was able to satisfy the wrath of God for His elect. Jesus, who was a spirit for eternity past, is now represented in heaven with a glorified body. That brings Him glory. It also brings Him glory to have all the saints resurrected. We will sing songs of our redemption and resurrection that even the angels could never sing (no angel has ever been redeemed).

Long story short -- it brings God glory to create the universe the way He did, allow Lucifer to fall alongside a third of the angels, allow him to tempt man to sin, allow man to fall into a sinful state, to send His Son to earth to redeem His elect by being the perfect sacrifice that satisfied His wrath while also displaying His love for mankind and to resurrect those who believe in Him after death to an eternity in communion with Him.

[ralph_i_el]

http://www.gotquestions.org/if-God-knew.html

In addition to this ^^

Everything God has done and will do is meant to bring Him glory. As the article mentions, God did not create the devil, he created Lucifer -- the wisest, most beautiful, most intelligent, most talented being ever created. Lucifer made himself the devil by aspiring to be like "The Most High". Not only did Lucifer sin, but he tried to inspire a revolt against God -- eventually convincing a third of the angels to side with him. (You'd have to be pretty smart to convince perfect beings to sin against the God they were in communion with since they were created. All after Adam and Eve were created with a sin nature (predisposed to sin) so sin doesn't look as revolting to us as it does to perfect beings. You'd have to understand how disgusting sin really is to understand how large a task it was to convince perfect angels to do it. How smart would I need to be to convince you to eat a bucket full of sh*t?) So God struck Lucifer out of heaven (God is Holy and can't have sin in His presence) and a third of the angels with him.

God preordained that it would bring Him glory to show His redemption plan for human beings. It also brings Him glory that the 2nd person of the Trinity (Jesus) changed his very nature to do it. Jesus, being God, wrapped himself in flesh and lived among us in perfect accordance to God's law, was sacrificed as God's lamb and was able to satisfy the wrath of God for His elect. Jesus, who was a spirit for eternity past, is now represented in heaven with a glorified body. That brings Him glory. It also brings Him glory to have all the saints resurrected. We will sing songs of our redemption and resurrection that even the angels could never sing (no angel has ever been redeemed).

Long story short -- it brings God glory to create the universe the way He did, allow Lucifer to fall alongside a third of the angels, allow him to tempt man to sin, allow man to fall into a sinful state, to send His Son to earth to redeem His elect by being the perfect sacrifice that satisfied His wrath while also displaying His love for mankind and to resurrect those who believe in Him after death to an eternity in communion with Him.

It doesn't reflect well on you when the smartest being under you revolts against you.

Also, if you were omnipotent/omniscient, why would you create a being that could and would revolt against you?

He created humans that were predisposed towards sin, then put the ultimate temptation right in front of them. Then punished them for carrying out the nature that HE HIMSELF IMBUED IN THEM.

Then thousands of years later, he creates a human version of himself, and has himself killed so he doesn't have to punish us anymore?

You understand that this all sounds crazy pants right?

[Da_Realist]

It doesn't reflect well on you when the smartest being under you revolts against you.

Also, if you were omnipotent/omniscient, why would you create a being that could and would revolt against you?

He created humans that were predisposed towards sin, then put the ultimate temptation right in front of them. Then punished them for carrying out the nature that HE HIMSELF IMBUED IN THEM.

Then thousands of years later, he creates a human version of himself, and has himself killed so he doesn't have to punish us anymore?

You understand that this all sounds crazy pants right?

That's because your "summary" perverted God's plan. I already explained why He created Lucifer.

He did not create humans predisposed towards sin. He created them perfect, with free will. He created a world where they could do anything they wanted as long as they did not eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. They had perfect communion with Him every single day. They were perfect in nature and they were made rulers over this perfect world and everything in it.

God forbade that they eat of the tree, this is true. Although I don't and probably never will understand all the reasons why God does or allows certain things, I will say that I believe He forbade them to do this for 2 reasons I can see...

1) To show them that even though they were given much, there were not God and could not do everything. Only God can do anything that pleases Him.

2) He wanted obedience. If He gave man free reign to any and everything, there is no need for obedience. In fact, God did create a world for someone with no restrictions -- Lucifer. Lucifer was the greatest of all creations and was able to walk in the very presence of God Himself. Yet, it did not stop him from sinning.

With that said, I don't know everything about God. I and other believers will spend an eternity trying to understand all the attributes of God and won't come close. You're never going to understand anything perfectly. You can't even understand yourself perfectly. There are things you do everyday that you don't understand why you do it. If perfect understanding is what you need to believe, you won't believe ANYTHING -- even atheism.

[Marchesk]

http://i.stack.imgur.com/tlE3P.png

That's your divinely inspired cosmology Jesus would have been brought up with. And that's why when the resurrected Jesus was finished, he rose up into the heavens. Like literally rose. Today we know Jesus would have gone into orbit.

[Marchesk]

That's because your "summary" perverted God's plan. I already explained why He created Lucifer.

God obviously created Lucifer so that he would rebel and tempt Adam & Eve into sin. The Garden of Eden was a setup. Why put a tree in there they weren't supposed to eat from, then allow the snake to tempt them. It's not like Adam & Even could draw from their life-long experiences to realize that listening to the snake over God was a very bad idea. They were innocents. They were newly created naive beings.

[ralph_i_el]

That's because your "summary" perverted God's plan. I already explained why He created Lucifer.

He did not create humans predisposed towards sin. He created them perfect, with free will. He created a world where they could do anything they wanted as long as they did not eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. They had perfect communion with Him every single day. They were perfect in nature and they were made rulers over this perfect world and everything in it.

God forbade that they eat of the tree, this is true. Although I don't and probably never will understand all the reasons why God does or allows certain things, I will say that I believe He forbade them to do this for 2 reasons I can see...

1) To show them that even though they were given much, there were not God and could not do everything. Only God can do anything that pleases Him.

2) He wanted obedience. If He gave man free reign to any and everything, there is no need for obedience. In fact, God did create a world for someone with no restrictions -- Lucifer. Lucifer was the greatest of all creations and was able to walk in the very presence of God Himself. Yet, it did not stop him from sinning.

With that said, I don't know everything about God. I and other believers will spend an eternity trying to understand all the attributes of God and won't come close. You're never going to understand anything perfectly. You can't even understand yourself perfectly. There are things you do everyday that you don't understand why you do it. If perfect understanding is what you need to believe, you won't believe ANYTHING -- even atheism.

"All after Adam and Eve were created with a sin nature (predisposed to sin) so sin doesn't look as revolting to us as it does to perfect beings."
^This is literally a quote of what you posted

Then you immediately say this:"He did not create humans predisposed towards sin"

so are you stupid, or just dumb? I can't understand "god" perfectly...but you can't even understand your own argument.

[Da_Realist]

"All after Adam and Eve were created with a sin nature (predisposed to sin) so sin doesn't look as revolting to us as it does to perfect beings."
^This is literally a quote of what you posted

Then you immediately say this:"He did not create humans predisposed towards sin"

so are you stupid, or just dumb? I can't understand "god" perfectly...but you can't even understand your own argument.

Let's change the bolded words so that you can understand what I wrote more clearly.

"All after Adam and Eve were created with a sin nature (predisposed to sin) so sin doesn't look as revolting to us as it does to perfect beings."

This means, all that were created AFTER Adam and Eve were created with a sin nature. He created Adam and Eve perfect. Because they sinned, all their offspring were born with a sin nature.

Who's stupid?

:facepalm

[04mzwach]

Sport stars thanking God for helping them win things is one of the most arrogant things in the world.
How would it be arrogant to thank God for something that happens in your life? It's never arrogant to thank God, period. They're literally giving him the glory as is said in prayers. And it's not about whether God cares about the NBA or not, it's about the person giving glory to God and being grateful for something in his/her life. It's always important to put yourself in others shoes because you'll understand it a lot better. Ask yourself why instead of shaming them instantly.

[ralph_i_el]

Let's change the bolded words so that you can understand what I wrote more clearly.
"All after Adam and Eve were created with a sin nature (predisposed to sin) so sin doesn't look as revolting to us as it does to perfect beings."

This means, all that were created AFTER Adam and Eve were created with a sin nature. He created Adam and Eve perfect. Because they sinned, all their offspring were born with a sin nature.

Who's stupid?

:facepalm

Ok sorry, you just have horrible sentence structure and believe in a magic skyman.

also in regards to Lucifer revolting and A+E sinning....He created them, and he knew what they'd do. He made them knowing full well that they would turn from him (because apparently he knows everything). It stands to reason that he could have created them WITHOUT the tendencies that led them to sin.

Also, all these stories were created thousands of years after the first humans...

[Da_Realist]

Ok sorry, you just have horrible sentence structure and believe in a magic skyman.

Yeah, right. Resorting to insults and name calling does nothing but make you look like a frustrated pre-teen. Not a good look. Why so mad anyway? You want to believe what you want to believe. Got it. What more do you want?


It stands to reason that he could have created them WITHOUT the tendencies that led them to sin.

And we'd all be robots. That glorifies no one.

[Graviton]

Yeah, right. Resorting to insults and name calling does nothing but make you look like a frustrated pre-teen. Not a good look. Why so mad anyway? You want to believe what you want to believe. What more do you want?



And we'd all be robots. That glorifies no one.
I believe that sex with girls 15 and above is fine, but everyone calls me a pervert. Pretty unfair.

:biggums:

[hawksdogsbraves]

How on earth is this thread still up in here? :biggums:

[ralph_i_el]

And we'd all be robots. That glorifies no one.

Why does that glorify no one?
Why does "God" care so much about his own glory?

How does the descent into sin of a species "created in his own image" bring glory to "God"?

He created us to suffer? Then didn't give most people a chance to hear his word? He allegedly appeared many times before recorded history, but as soon as people start recording and vetting things he never shows his face again?

Do you believe all the worshipers of Allah are going to burn for eternity?

[Milbuck]

On what basis is atheism linked to a "dangerous lack of moral understanding"?
There is no guidance, nothing to keep you on the right path. I'll say it again, atheism promotes contrived pseudo-morality that varies from person to person, which creates the potential for moral chaos. We've seen it time and time again with mass murderers, and with "religious" figures in power who developed warped views of those religions. Properly practiced and respected religion is the only reliable glue that keeps us together as a species. Anything less than total commitment and submission to a higher power breaks this glue and unravels all the problems we need to keep in check. Every major issue or conflict in history can be linked to a lack of faith.

[ralph_i_el]

There is no guidance, nothing to keep you on the right path. I'll say it again, atheism promotes contrived pseudo-morality that varies from person to person, which creates the potential for moral chaos. We've seen it time and time again with mass murderers, and with "religious" figures in power who developed warped views of those religions. Properly practiced and respected religion is the only reliable glue that keeps us together as a species. Anything less than total commitment and submission to a higher power breaks this glue and unravels all the problems we need to keep in check. Every major issue or conflict in history can be linked to a lack of faith.

That, or a surplus of faith :roll:

[Graviton]

There is no guidance, nothing to keep you on the right path. I'll say it again, atheism promotes contrived pseudo-morality that varies from person to person, which creates the potential for moral chaos. We've seen it time and time again with mass murderers, and with "religious" figures in power who developed warped views of those religions. Properly practiced and respected religion is the only reliable glue that keeps us together as a species. Anything less than total commitment and submission to a higher power breaks this glue and unravels all the problems we need to keep in check. Every major issue or conflict in history can be linked to a lack of faith.
What? :roll:

Every major issue or conflict in history can be linked to religion is what you meant right?

[navy]

There is no guidance, nothing to keep you on the right path. I'll say it again, atheism promotes contrived pseudo-morality that varies from person to person, which creates the potential for moral chaos. We've seen it time and time again with mass murderers, and with "religious" figures in power who developed warped views of those religions. Properly practiced and respected religion is the only reliable glue that keeps us together as a species. Anything less than total commitment and submission to a higher power breaks this glue and unravels all the problems we need to keep in check. Every major issue or conflict in history can be linked to a lack of faith.
Preach brother. :bowdown:

Athiest heathens just dont know.

[iamgine]

Most people who claim themselves atheist are actually agnostics

[Da_Realist]

Why does that glorify no one?
Why does "God" care so much about his own glory?

How does the descent into sin of a species "created in his own image" bring glory to "God"?

He created us to suffer? Then didn't give most people a chance to hear his word? He allegedly appeared many times before recorded history, but as soon as people start recording and vetting things he never shows his face again?

Do you believe all the worshipers of Allah are going to burn for eternity?

It glorifies no one because no one would choose to honor Him because we wouldn't have the capability to choose.

Why does God care so much about His own glory? I don't know but He deserves all the glory in the world and infinitely more. You and I, on the other hand, don't. Why do we care so much about our own glory?

The descent of sin does not bring Him glory but His redemption plan does.

The other paragraph has been refuted. Go back and actually read the other posts and actually watch the videos. Why keep asking the same questions when you don't actually care what the answer is?

Do I believe all worshipers of Allah will burn in hell for eternity? Yes. As will anyone who does not put total trust in Jesus and understand our need for him, believe that He came to earth as our substitute and perfect sacrificial lamb for God's wrath in order to redeem us back into perfect communion with God. Through Jesus, we believers are declared righteous before God (that does not mean we are righteous, but we are declared righteous) because our sins were paid for by the penalty Jesus paid on the cross. As such, we can enter into God's presence as sinless.

[navy]

Most people who claim themselves atheist are actually agnostics
They arent mutually exclusive.

[iamgine]

They arent mutually exclusive.
They are.

[Milbuck]

That, or a surplus of faith :roll:

What? :roll:

Every major issue or conflict in history can be linked to religion is what you meant right?
Humans are flawed. Religion is flawless. Criticize those who lack faith, criticize the believers with dangerous interpretations. But don't you dare denigrate faith in its rightful form.

[navy]

They are.
They arent.

http://www.stanleycolors.com/wp-content/uploads/atheism.jpg

[ralph_i_el]

Why does God care so much about His own glory?

Do I believe all worshipers of Allah will burn in hell for eternity? Yes. As will anyone who does not put total trust in Jesus and understand our need for him, believe that He came to earth as our substitute and perfect sacrificial lamb for God's wrath in order to redeem us back into perfect communion with God. Through Jesus, we believers are declared righteous before God (that does not mean we are righteous, but we are declared righteous) because our sins were paid for by the penalty Jesus paid on the cross. As such, we can enter into God's presence as sinless.

If you believe that, why are you not out their right now spreading the "good word"? Don't you know how many people are dying RIGHT NOW who've never had the chance to be baptized or told about Jesus? You're letting tiny children burn in hell for all eternity, because they never had a chance. Their mommies and daddies told them about Muhammad and Allah (or one of the other hundred damn deities) when they were kids, and they grew up worshiping them instead! Oh and btw, they all think YOU are going to burn in hell!

Seems to me that you might have been born in the wrong place and picked up the wrong god buddy :confusedshrug: 1.8B muslims are all wrong? Don't you know that the quran is a best seller? :hammerhead:

It seems to me that if you actually believe what you're telling me, you need to be out there forcing people to convert, for their own good! Plus, make sure they follow all your rules! (you can see how this gets problematic right?)

[iamgine]

They arent.

http://www.stanleycolors.com/wp-content/uploads/atheism.jpg
They are based on that pic.

[navy]

They are based on that pic.
:biggums:

[Da_Realist]

If you believe that, why are you not out their right now spreading the "good word"? Don't you know how many people are dying RIGHT NOW who've never had the chance to be baptized or told about Jesus? You're letting tiny children burn in hell for all eternity, because they never had a chance. Their mommies and daddies told them about Muhammad and Allah (or one of the other hundred damn deities) when they were kids, and they grew up worshiping them instead! Oh and btw, they all think YOU are going to burn in hell!

Seems to me that you might have been born in the wrong place and picked up the wrong god buddy :confusedshrug: 1.8B muslims are all wrong? Don't you know that the quran is a best seller? :hammerhead:

It seems to me that if you actually believe what you're telling me, you need to be out there forcing people to convert, for their own good! Plus, make sure they follow all your rules! (you can see how this gets problematic right?)

You're good at attacking the messenger, great at ignoring the message. Maybe God wanted me to join this thread and spread the word. I actually wanted to enjoy my night and certainly didn't envision posting videos that would be ignored and answering questions by people that didn't care in the first place. But who knows, maybe someone reads this and actually understands and comes to faith in Christ. Maybe another Christian reads this and is empowered to make a bold stand to people belittling their faith and their God. If so, then it was all worth it.

[Budadiiii]

Humans are flawed. Religion is flawless. Criticize those who lack faith, criticize the believers with dangerous interpretations. But don't you dare denigrate faith in its rightful form.
:applause:

[zoom17]

http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20140411045135/fallout/images/c/c4/Just-dropped-by-to-say-this-thread-sucks.jpg

[zoom17]

http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/450/oreilly.gif

[Batzman]

16 pages?

You go, mods. :applause:

[hawksdogsbraves]

You're good at attacking the messenger, great at ignoring the message. Maybe God wanted me to join this thread and spread the word. I actually wanted to enjoy my night and certainly didn't envision posting videos that would be ignored and answering questions by people that didn't care in the first place. But who knows, maybe someone reads this and actually understands and comes to faith in Christ. Maybe another Christian reads this and is empowered to make a bold stand to people belittling their faith and their God. If so, then it was all worth it.

If you think somebody on ISH is going to read your convoluted rants about how you think all non-Christians are doomed to an eternity of burning in hell and think, 'wow, this guy is making some good points' then you're even crazier than whoever drilled these ideas into your head in the first place.

You'd be better off holding 'All **** Will Burn' sign on a college campus somewhere with the nutcases you seem to identify with.

[ralph_i_el]

You're good at attacking the messenger, great at ignoring the message. Maybe God wanted me to join this thread and spread the word. I actually wanted to enjoy my night and certainly didn't envision posting videos that would be ignored and answering questions by people that didn't care in the first place. But who knows, maybe someone reads this and actually understands and comes to faith in Christ. Maybe another Christian reads this and is empowered to make a bold stand to people belittling their faith and their God. If so, then it was all worth it.
Did you really think I was going to watch 6 hours of radical evangelical preaching? I couldn't make it through 20 minutes. I lost it when he started going off on the pope for owning apartments on the same block as a gay bathhouse :facepalm:

I spent every Sunday in church growing up. I still go sometimes. I went through 12 years of CCD. I memorized the prayers and received all the various indoctrinations. I know how religious folk think. In trying to get you all to think about it in a historical context; so maybe you'll get a sense of how vain it is that you believe that you are somehow part of a chosen people due to your indoctrination by the "right" religion.

No one would bother arguing with christians over your religion if christians stopped trying to force their rules on others.

Some guy was standing on a corner (with his little kids who he had handing out literature) on my campus telling us how we'll all burn along with the "gays, reefer smokers, and gangster rappers". I had just played some 3 on 3 and I was too tired to deal with his bullshit. I started heckling the dude and he lost his shit in front of his kids. Those kids are probably going to grow up as crazy as him, and they'll probably never have a chance to choose otherwise without losing their entire support structure.

[04mzwach]

Did you really think I was going to watch 6 hours of radical evangelical preaching? I couldn't make it through 20 minutes. I lost it when he started going off on the pope for owning apartments on the same block as a gay bathhouse :facepalm:

I spent every Sunday in church growing up. I still go sometimes. I went through 12 years of CCD. I memorized the prayers and received all the various indoctrinations. I know how religious folk think. In trying to get you all to think about it in a historical context; so maybe you'll get a sense of how vain it is that you believe that you are somehow part of a chosen people due to your indoctrination by the "right" religion.

No one would bother arguing with christians over your religion if christians stopped trying to force their rules on others.

Some guy was standing on a corner (with his little kids who he had handing out literature) on my campus telling us how we'll all burn along with the "gays, reefer smokers, and gangster rappers". I had just played some 3 on 3 and I was too tired to deal with his bullshit. I started heckling the dude and he lost his shit in front of his kids. Those kids are probably going to grow up as crazy as him, and they'll probably never have a chance to choose otherwise without losing their entire support structure.
What Christians? I always hear that but I never see it. Rules on gays or what?

[ralph_i_el]

What Christians? I always hear that but I never see it. Rules on gays or what?
Gays, global warming, birth control, abortion, teaching evolution, marijuana legalization...

[Da_Realist]

Creationism vs Evolution

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDfpL-1GkzQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1ufK04tjOI

[SugarHill]

Creationism vs Evolution

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDfpL-1GkzQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1ufK04tjOI

I'm going to take a wild guess and assume you're Christian. Having said that, why did you link to a video mocking evolution as a dogma built on nothing factual as a reason why your religion is a better way of understanding things? Seems quite ironic.

[Milbuck]

Creationism vs Evolution

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDfpL-1GkzQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1ufK04tjOI
http://gifsoup.com/view2/1892029/church-baby-o.gif

[Graviton]

Here is God giving his blessing to the Hawks and entrusting them with his five favorite angels. Ancient scriptures foretold of this event.



http://i.imgur.com/zxZPx7K.jpg

[Marchesk]

There is no guidance, nothing to keep you on the right path. I'll say it again, atheism promotes contrived pseudo-morality that varies from person to person, which creates the potential for moral chaos. We've seen it time and time again with mass murderers, and with "religious" figures in power who developed warped views of those religions. Properly practiced and respected religion is the only reliable glue that keeps us together as a species. Anything less than total commitment and submission to a higher power breaks this glue and unravels all the problems we need to keep in check. Every major issue or conflict in history can be linked to a lack of faith.

Is that why God commanded the ancient Israelites to:


Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’ ”

~ 1 Samuel 15:3

[305Baller]

what a bunch of bullshit.

[Nowitness]

what a bunch of bullshit.

You must be religious. Afterall, you failed to see what the three pillars of humanity are and were offended when I said Christianity is to blame for reducing individuality.

[305Baller]

You must be religious. Afterall, you failed to see what the three pillars of humanity are and were offended when I said Christianity is to blame for reducing individuality.

kill yourself, idiot. lies. delusional. troll.

[Milbuck]

Is that why God commanded the ancient Israelites to:



~ 1 Samuel 15:3
I might as well say it now, considering this thread has gotten boring. I'm not religious, lol at anyone who took me seriously.

[Marchesk]

I might as well say it now, considering this thread has gotten boring. I'm not religious, lol at anyone who took me seriously.

You're not going to defend Jehovah-Jireh commanding the killing of innocent donkeys? :whatever: