Lebron James is the greatest player I have ever seen

[Ariza4three]

No bullshit, no trolling. He's the GOAT. Plain and simple. He would have been even more dominant in the 90's with a stacked team like MJ had.

[outbreak]

http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/funny.gif

Greatest of his generation? You could claim that. Greatest of all time? lol

[SamuraiSWISH]

He's the second greatest player I've ever seen. Truth.

[Jud]

You weren't alive to see MJ, huh?

[BuffaloBill]

You been watchin ball for like 5 years so yeah I can see that.

[Twiens]

But you're 13...

[Roundball_Rock]

Peak Shaq is the best player I have seen live in terms of peak play. LeBron and Jordan come close behind that.

[SouBeachTalents]

Jordan and Shaq >

[The_Pharcyde]

No bullshit, no trolling. He's the GOAT. Plain and simple. He would have been even more dominant in the 90's with a stacked team like MJ had.


you dont believe this deep down, yeah you will deny it, but deep down you know MJ is the GOAT. especially cause you brought him up after mentioning lebron being the GOAT, MJ is the 1st name to come to your mind

but LBJ is the greatest of this generation so I cant hate on the dude, but nah, he is not the goat, cmon

if you have to debate whether someone is the greatest during the PEAK of their career then they will never be goat

like MJ said, stop looking for the next MJ, you will just know, they will come in and take it without any debate

similar to how MJ did, it will be a phenomenon like how mike was

stop comparing LBJ and Kobe and every other great contemporary to prior legends, just enjoy their game and stop watching it with the MJ comparison glasses at all times

[RedBlackAttack]

For those under 25, this is a completely rational opinion. He is probably the best player I've seen since Jordan. There's a strong argument for Shaq and Duncan, and a lot of people love Kobe, I know.

But, LeBron is right there with Shaq at the top, for me, since '98.

[Ariza4three]

Peak Shaq is the best player I have seen live in terms of peak play. LeBron and Jordan come close behind that.
Hm. I agree actually.

[Ariza4three]

you dont believe this deep down, yeah you will deny it, but deep down you know MJ is the GOAT. especially cause you brought him up after mentioning lebron being the GOAT, MJ is the 1st name to come to your mind

but LBJ is the greatest of this generation so I cant hate on the dude, but nah, he is not the goat, cmon

if you have to debate whether someone is the greatest during the PEAK of their career then they will never be goat

like MJ said, stop looking for the next MJ, you will just know, they will come in and take it without any debate

similar to how MJ did, it will be a phenomenon like how mike was

stop comparing LBJ and Kobe and every other great contemporary to prior legends, just enjoy their game and stop watching it with the MJ comparison glasses at all times
tl;dr

[Spurs m8]

No bullshit, no trolling. He's the GOAT. Plain and simple

Says more about you than it does LeBron

[Eric Cartman]

Jameer is a child so of course he didn't watch MJ, Wilt, Magic etc.

[The_Pharcyde]

tl;cr
fixed

[Anaximandro1]

LeBron has dominated the historically weak Eastern Conference.

LeBron career stats pale in comparison to Jordan, Duncan, Shaq and Hakeem, on the biggest stage.


http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-WHZTWy3n-0A/VNffUGmjdOI/AAAAAAAADvs/iYT_IO919gw/s1600/3.jpg

[blood yes]

For those under 25, this is a completely rational opinion.
True

I'd argue that LeBron holds 2 out of the 5 greatest individual performanes of the 21st century

LeBron's NBA record 25 points in a row against Detroit (Wilt or MJ never did this), LeBron's 45 against Boston, Kobe's 81, Dwyane Wade game 3, Shaq 2001 game 1

[beastee]

Shows your age. The 80s and early 90s are littered with talent. But since MJ Shaq and lebron probably are the most dominant players. AD is probably next on that list.

[SugarHill]

japanese snappin billy GOAT lookin ass n*gga

wow so profound

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

you dont believe this deep down, yeah you will deny it, but deep down you know MJ is the GOAT. especially cause you brought him up after mentioning lebron being the GOAT, MJ is the 1st name to come to your mind

but LBJ is the greatest of this generation so I cant hate on the dude, but nah, he is not the goat, cmon

if you have to debate whether someone is the greatest during the PEAK of their career then they will never be goat

like MJ said, stop looking for the next MJ, you will just know, they will come in and take it without any debate

similar to how MJ did, it will be a phenomenon like how mike was

stop comparing LBJ and Kobe and every other great contemporary to prior legends, just enjoy their game and stop watching it with the MJ comparison glasses at all times

Negged. Quit telling people what they do and don't think. Unless you're a psychic that can read minds, stop with that bullshit. It's embarrasing.

[Ariza4three]

wow so profound
Got your ass with that last night :oldlol: That shit still burn?

[T_L_P]

3rd greatest I've seen.

[ILLsmak]

True

I'd argue that LeBron holds 2 out of the 5 greatest individual performanes of the 21st century



well played.

-Smak

[aj1987]

LeBron has dominated the historically weak Eastern Conference.

LeBron career stats pale in comparison to Jordan, Duncan, Shaq and Hakeem, on the biggest stage.


http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-WHZTWy3n-0A/VNffUGmjdOI/AAAAAAAADvs/iYT_IO919gw/s1600/3.jpg
ORTG and DRTG... :oldlol:

EAST - 27.4 PPG 7.1 RPG 6.8 APG on 49/33/75
WEST - 27.5 PPG 7.3 RPG 7.1 APG on 50/37/73

Must be fun playing with the GOAT coach, 2 FMVP winners, multiple All-Stars, All-Defensive players, and All-NBA players throughout your career.

[andgar923]

One of.. not THE best.

[Prometheus]

True

I'd argue that LeBron holds 2 out of the 5 greatest individual performanes of the 21st century

LeBron's NBA record 25 points in a row against Detroit (Wilt or MJ never did this), LeBron's 45 against Boston, Kobe's 81, Dwyane Wade game 3, Shaq 2001 game 1

http://www.eonline.com/eol_images/Entire_Site/2013113/michaelfassbender_laugh.gif

[andgar923]

True

I'd argue that LeBron holds 2 out of the 5 greatest individual performanes of the 21st century

LeBron's NBA record 25 points in a row against Detroit (Wilt or MJ never did this), LeBron's 45 against Boston, Kobe's 81, Dwyane Wade game 3, Shaq 2001 game 1:confusedshrug:

[The_Pharcyde]

Negged. Quit telling people what they do and don't think. Unless you're a psychic that can read minds, stop with that bullshit. It's embarrasing.

cmon bro, dont neg me!! the hell am i gonna do if i get negged??!??!?!?!?

[blood yes]

well played.

-Smak
LOL, I didn't even notice that :oldlol:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

cmon bro, dont neg me!! the hell am i gonna do if i get negged??!??!?!?!?

I didn't neg you, but seriously calm down with that zealot stuff.

Jordan is the best, but that's because I watched him play (PEAK Shaq is still the GOAT, in my opinion). For all we know, OP could still be pissing himself.

[theoneneo]

Lol ***** plays in the weak ass east, and still has to team up with other stars :lol

[J Shuttlesworth]

I saw Jordan. He's the best, and LeBron is the second best i've seen. After that, probably Timmy

[Lebronxrings]

watched jordan play live. He was pretty good, but tends to get overrated alot. Lebron is a rich mans jordan.

[bizil]

I think he's the most versatile player of all time. In terms of the best I've seen, he's in the top six with MJ, Magic, Bird, Shaq, and Kobe.

[Anaximandro1]

Let's be honest:

- Jordan is by far the best player I've ever seen

- with a similar supporting cast, LeBron has no chance against Duncan/Shaq ... especially Duncan.

Context: early 2000s, Western Conference filled with MVP caliber players in their primes, depressed Offensive Ratings across the league, handcheking allowed,etc.


http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-yp3AIS3jdDY/VNfxXIoA6sI/AAAAAAAADv8/J92Kx7Gpx48/s1600/5.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-GxtHYowHj20/VNfxXboRpUI/AAAAAAAADwA/t-x16Rgs2vw/s1600/11.jpg

[T_L_P]

Anaximandro1 with those resources, tbh. :applause:

[Cold soul]

Lebron 4th to me all time of greatest players I've seen play. Shaq, Duncan, and Kobe were all better players to me. Shaq the most dominate since MJ by far.

[sick_brah07]

on behalf of all the orlando magic fans

PLEASE STFU

[tmacattack33]

Best I've ever seen:

1. MJ
2. Shaq
3. Lebron

[Fire Colangelo]

He's up there

[Ariza4three]

Lebron 4th to me all time of greatest players I've seen play. Shaq, Duncan, and Kobe were all better players to me. Shaq the most dominate since MJ by far.
http://i60.tinypic.com/b97wjo.jpg

[Beastmode88]

Hes a top 10 of all time player but goat? :roll: 2011 finals /thread

[rlsmooth775]

Hes a top 10 of all time player but goat? :roll: 2011 finals /thread

zones

[Magic 32]

So much single parent behavior in this thread :facepalm

http://s15.postimg.org/dk43tse1n/lebron_and_dad.jpg

[RoundMoundOfReb]

http://i60.tinypic.com/b97wjo.jpg
:roll: :roll:

[coin24]

Its little Jameer what do you expect:oldlol:

Too young to have seen MJ
Too upset shaq shit on his magic and went to LA
Too butthurt Laker fans upset him everyday of his sad life so he hates kobe with a passion...

Spends whole life with 20 alts on ish. Yeah pretty accurate description of a LeBald family member:lol

[Soundwave]

Post Jordan/Shaq, I'd say it's a wash between peak Kobe and peak LeBron.

LeBron is a better all around player with better basketball I.Q., but I think Kobe was more talented in a lot of ways and had a better killer instinct than LeBron.

[pauk]

I have seen anything there is about MJ, i'm a 90s child, wearing Jordan's jersey to school, oscillating "like mike" inside my mind and going to sleep with his posters right next to my bed and all that.... and i can easily tell you accolades or zero accolades he is the greatest overall/allround player i ever seen lace em up....

Now that we have got that out of the way, let me try be objective, non-nostalgic-jordan-jockstrap-rider here... I have also watched almost every single game of Lebron since he entered the league, i can easily tell you that Lebron is the best overall/allround player i ever seen after MJ.... and i wouldnt be surprised if he is at that level.... or yes i am not afraid to say arguably overall/allround better.... not saying that he is, but that it is arguable when speaking of strictly overall/allround game's they had, the impact on their teams, the IQ, the domination....

I know its ironic to hear as my liking for Lebron's game is very known here, but i really cant help it, i just cant lie to myself as that IS what my eyes have seen from Lebron.... he is that good... different gamestyle/games though.... and you may find Jordan's game a bit more aesthetically pleasing.... but imo Lebron is/was at that level in his own way....

If both had the exact teammates and were in their primes going against eachother.... would you be surprised if Lebron whooped Jordan's ass more often than not in their matchups? Not saying that would happen, but i am saying i wouldnt be surprised at all....

[red1]

2nd GOAT. shaq arguable

[mehyaM24]

Negged. Quit telling people what they do and don't think. Unless you're a psychic that can read minds, stop with that bullshit. It's embarrasing.


I have seen anything there is about MJ, i'm a 90s child, wearing Jordan's jersey to school, ocillating "like mike" inside my mind and going to sleep with his posters right next to my bed and all that.... and i can easily tell you accolades or zero accolades he is the greatest overall/allround player i ever seen lace em up....

Now that we have got that out of the way, let me try be objective, non-nostalgic-jordan-jockstrap-rider here... I have also watched almost every single game of Lebron since he entered the league, i can easily tell you that Lebron is the best overall/allround player i ever seen after MJ.... and i wouldnt be surprised if he is at that level.... or yes i am not afraid to say arguably overall/allround better.... not saying that he is, but that it is arguable when speaking of strictly overall/allround game's they had, the impact on their teams, the IQ, the domination....

I know its ironic to hear as my liking for Lebron's game is very known here, but i really cant help it, i just cant lie to myself as that IS what my eyes have seen from Lebron.... he is that good... different gamestyle/games though.... and you may find Jordan's game a bit more aesthetically pleasing.... but imo Lebron is at that level in his own way....

If both had the exact teammates and were in their primes going against eachother.... would you be surprised if Lebron whooped Jordan's ass more often than not in their matchups? Not saying that would happen, but i am saying i wouldnt be surprised at all....

good posts. seriously.

jordan fans get overly emotional with their hero worship.

i personally have shaq as the best i saw. jordan and lebron are roughly equal, only difference is that lebron can do more with less.. which means he has arguably more impact.

[SamuraiSWISH]

you dont believe this deep down, yeah you will deny it, but deep down you know MJ is the GOAT. especially cause you brought him up after mentioning lebron being the GOAT, MJ is the 1st name to come to your mind
:applause:

[raprap]

Started watching the NBA in 2000. Shaq and Bron are the greatest players I have seen.

[Cold soul]

http://i60.tinypic.com/b97wjo.jpg

Lol that response.

[KingBeasley08]

Never saw Jordan and was a kid during Prime Shaq.

Greatest players I've ever seen are LeBron and Kobe

LeBron >>>>>>>>>> Kobe

[Doranku]

I have seen anything there is about MJ, i'm a 90s child, wearing Jordan's jersey to school, oscillating "like mike" inside my mind and going to sleep with his posters right next to my bed and all that.... and i can easily tell you accolades or zero accolades he is the greatest overall/allround player i ever seen lace em up....

Now that we have got that out of the way, let me try be objective, non-nostalgic-jordan-jockstrap-rider here... I have also watched almost every single game of Lebron since he entered the league, i can easily tell you that Lebron is the best overall/allround player i ever seen after MJ.... and i wouldnt be surprised if he is at that level.... or yes i am not afraid to say arguably overall/allround better.... not saying that he is, but that it is arguable when speaking of strictly overall/allround game's they had, the impact on their teams, the IQ, the domination....

I know its ironic to hear as my liking for Lebron's game is very known here, but i really cant help it, i just cant lie to myself as that IS what my eyes have seen from Lebron.... he is that good... different gamestyle/games though.... and you may find Jordan's game a bit more aesthetically pleasing.... but imo Lebron is/was at that level in his own way....

If both had the exact teammates and were in their primes going against eachother.... would you be surprised if Lebron whooped Jordan's ass more often than not in their matchups? Not saying that would happen, but i am saying i wouldnt be surprised at all....

:oldlol:

Prime LeBron got his ass handed to him by Shawn Marion, JJ Barea, and Kawhi Leonard. I can't even begin to fathom what Jordan would do to him in a playoff series.

[SamuraiSWISH]

:oldlol:

Prime LeBron got his ass handed to him by Shawn Marion, JJ Barea, and Kawhi Leonard. I can't even begin to fathom what Jordan would do to him in a playoff series.
:roll: :roll: :roll:

[Heavincent]

:oldlol:

Prime LeBron got his ass handed to him by Shawn Marion, JJ Barea, and Kawhi Leonard. I can't even begin to fathom what Jordan would do to him in a playoff series.

Leonard would do a great job guarding Jordan actually. I don't know about old man Marion in 2011, but prime Matrix would be a tough matchup for Jordan.

But yes, I agree with the general premise of your post.

[Cold soul]

Never saw Jordan and was a kid during Prime Shaq.

Greatest players I've ever seen are LeBron and Kobe

LeBron >>>>>>>>>> Kobe

I'm fine with anyone that thinks peak Lebron better than peak Kobe but act like it's not even close is wrong and foolish.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Leonard would do a great job guarding Jordan actually. I don't know about old man Marion in 2011, but prime Matrix would be a tough matchup for Jordan.
Why would Leonard do a great job on Jordan?

He's not near quick enough to negate dribble penetration, or his first step. Mike consistently abused taller, longer SF types who could contest his jumper because they didn't have guard quickness to stay in front of him.

And prime Marion? You do realize Yoda - Floor Jordan abused him, right?

I'm not being over sensitive, just curious as to your basketball reasoning if you actually watched prime Jordan play ...

This isn't a Kobe situation who gets jumper happy, and shys from attacking the rim. Thus long defenders like Prince, Thabo, or Battier being able to frustrate his game.

And it's not a LeBron situation, where he would need constant picks to create for himself in ISO situations.

[mehyaM24]

2nd GOAT. shaq arguable
shaq and lebron. can't go wrong with either or, brah :cheers:

if you had to build a franchise around one of them, who would it be and why..?

[pauk]

:oldlol:

Prime LeBron got his ass handed to him by Shawn Marion, JJ Barea, and Kawhi Leonard. I can't even begin to fathom what Jordan would do to him in a playoff series.

With that theory Jordan got his ass handed to him by lesser player's in the playoffs aswell....

...and again, i think Jordan was better dont get me wrong... the only difference between me and you on this subject here is that i am objectively open to the argument of Lebron being at that level.... why? Because i have with an open mind watched both their careers live (well, i havent missed many since the 90's)... I grew up being a Reggie fan though even kindof despising MJ later in honor of Reggie (just for him & his team being that damn good, not fair! :P)... so that might have allowed/helped me be a bit less of a Jordan worshipper (where everybody/anybody cant be compared in any way to him)

I know you hate Lebron as a person... thats fine... but denying how great a player's game is as you are letting that hate cloud your objectivity / basketball judgement is just ignorant & immature man... I knows its taboo as a Kobe fan but trust me you can like both their games, i know i do... and Kobe can still be your favorite player... but that agenda needs to go, its just childish... just learn to appreciate the game from all corners!

[mehyaM24]

With that theory Jordan got his ass handed to him by lesser player's in the playoffs aswell....

...and again, i think Jordan was better dont get me wrong... the only difference between me and you on this subject here is that i am objectively open to the argument of Lebron being at that level.... why? Because i have with an open mind watched both their careers live (well, i havent missed many since the 90's)... I grew up being a Reggie fan though even kindof despising MJ later in honor of Reggie (just for him & his team being that damn good, not fair! :P)... so that might have allowed/helped me be a bit less of a Jordan worshipper (where everybody/anybody cant be compared in any way to him)

I know you hate Lebron as a person... thats fine... but denying how great a player's game is as you are letting that hate cloud your objectivity / basketball judgement is just ignorant & immature man... I knows its taboo as a Kobe fan but trust me you can like both their games, i know i do... and Kobe can still be your favorite player... but that agenda needs to go, its just childish... just learn to appreciate the game from all corners!

pauk killing it. good posts man. repped.

[andgar923]

With that theory Jordan got his ass handed to him by lesser player's in the playoffs aswell....

...and again, i think Jordan was better dont get me wrong... the only difference between me and you on this subject here is that i am objectively open to the argument of Lebron being at that level.... why? Because i have with an open mind watched both their careers live (well, i havent missed many since the 90's)... I grew up being a Reggie fan though even kindof despising MJ later in honor of Reggie (just for him & his team being that damn good, not fair! :P)... so that might have allowed/helped me be a bit less of a Jordan worshipper (where everybody/anybody cant be compared in any way to him)

I know you hate Lebron as a person... thats fine... but denying how great a player's game is as you are letting that hate cloud your objectivity / basketball judgement is just ignorant & immature man... I knows its taboo as a Kobe fan but trust me you can like both their games, i know i do... and Kobe can still be your favorite player... but that agenda needs to go, its just childish... just learn to appreciate the game from all corners!
:lol :lol :lol

Such as... go on.

[Prometheus]

I'm fine with anyone that thinks peak Lebron better than peak Kobe but act like it's not even close is wrong and foolish.

This. I think LeBron is better, but they're in the same tier.

[juju151111]

Leonard would do a great job guarding Jordan actually. I don't know about old man Marion in 2011, but prime Matrix would be a tough matchup for Jordan.

But yes, I agree with the general premise of your post.
What in the duck are you talking about. Tall defenders don't really have much success with Mj. Also broken down My destroyed Marion on many occasions.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I have seen anything there is about MJ, i'm a 90s child, wearing Jordan's jersey to school, oscillating "like mike" inside my mind and going to sleep with his posters right next to my bed and all that.... and i can easily tell you accolades or zero accolades he is the greatest overall/allround player i ever seen lace em up....

Now that we have got that out of the way, let me try be objective, non-nostalgic-jordan-jockstrap-rider here... I have also watched almost every single game of Lebron since he entered the league, i can easily tell you that Lebron is the best overall/allround player i ever seen after MJ.... and i wouldnt be surprised if he is at that level.... or yes i am not afraid to say arguably overall/allround better.... not saying that he is, but that it is arguable when speaking of strictly overall/allround game's they had, the impact on their teams, the IQ, the domination....

I know its ironic to hear as my liking for Lebron's game is very known here, but i really cant help it, i just cant lie to myself as that IS what my eyes have seen from Lebron.... he is that good... different gamestyle/games though.... and you may find Jordan's game a bit more aesthetically pleasing.... but imo Lebron is/was at that level in his own way....

If both had the exact teammates and were in their primes going against eachother.... would you be surprised if Lebron whooped Jordan's ass more often than not in their matchups? Not saying that would happen, but i am saying i wouldnt be surprised at all....

As players, you're right. There isn't THAT much that separates them (probably on the same tier honestly). It's their careers. Mike has a career that's etched in stone and something made of a fable. 6 chips, 6 FMVPs, 5 MVPs ... Dude is the king of honors, accolades and accomplishments. LeBron's got a LONG WAYS to go to match that (odds are completely against him).

[Cold soul]

This. I think LeBron is better, but they're in the same tier.

Well said. :applause:

[Heavincent]

Why would Leonard do a great job on Jordan?

He's not near quick enough to negate dribble penetration, or his first step. Mike consistently abused taller, longer SF types who could contest his jumper because they didn't have guard quickness to stay in front of him.

And prime Marion? You do realize Yoda - Floor Jordan abused him, right?

I'm not being over sensitive, just curious as to your basketball reasoning if you actually watched prime Jordan play ...

This isn't a Kobe situation who gets jumper happy, and shys from attacking the rim. Thus long defenders like Prince, Thabo, or Battier being able to frustrate his game.

And it's not a LeBron situation, where he would need constant picks to create for himself in ISO situations.

Leonard has great lateral quickness. I don't think Jordan would blow past him as easily as you think. Besides, I don't really understand your point about long and athletic SF's being easier to beat off the dribble. It's the opposite, really. Those type of players don't have to get as close since they can just contest jump shots with their long arms.

As for Marion, I don't care if Jordan had a good game against him. That doesn't mean it isn't a tough matchup. Kobe obliterated Shane Battier, AK-47, and Raja Bell plenty of times. Doesn't mean they didn't make him work for his points.

[knicksman]

brans 2 most memorable games are against non contending teams which is boston and detroit. And they are so proud of it. Youre standards are so low bran stans.

Meanwhile jordan had a playoff record 63 points against the GOAT team

[SamuraiSWISH]

With that theory Jordan got his ass handed to him by lesser player's in the playoffs aswell....
Name them ...

MJ never had a 2010 ECSF, 2011 Finals, or 2014 Finals moment being out played at his position for half the series. And the guy he guarded ended up getting Finals MVP. This is as believable as your MJ flop mix tape.

:roll: :roll: :roll:

I didn't see MJ getting out played by Richard Dumas, Byron Russell or Dan Majerle. Or getting torched defensively by 6th men like Terry did LeBron in the 2011 Finals.

[tpols]

...and again, i think Jordan was better dont get me wrong... the only difference between me and you on this subject here is that i am objectively open to the argument of Lebron being at that level....

No you're not objective.

And there is no argument. Multiple finals chokes already sealed that up.

[Prometheus]

brans 2 most memorable games are against non contending teams which is boston and detroit. And they are so proud of it. Youre standards are so low bran stans.

Shameful nitpicking. Those performances were breathtaking, and besides... he has also had many great performances against even better teams.

[juju151111]

Leonard has great lateral quickness. I don't think Jordan would blow past him as easily as you think. Besides, I don't really understand your point about long and athletic SF's being easier to beat off the dribble. It's the opposite, really. Those type of players don't have to get as close since they can just contest jump shots with their long arms.

As for Marion, I don't care if Jordan had a good game against him. That doesn't mean it isn't a tough matchup. Kobe obliterated Shane Battier, AK-47, and Raja Bell plenty of times. Doesn't mean they didn't make him work for his points.
Bro that was Kobe in his prime. Mj beat on Marion has a old man with no knees.

[Prime_Shaq]

Prime Shaq > Jordan/Kobe/LeBron/Magic/Bird/Wilt/Russell

Absolutely no one was as dominant as peak Shaq. Peak Shaq is the greatest player of all-time. His career as a whole could be better though.

http://i.cdn.turner.com/nba/nba/.element/media/2.0/teamsites/lakers/images/history/shaq/images/graphics/shaq_DIESEL.jpg

[SamuraiSWISH]

Leonard has great lateral quickness.
On LeBron, sure. A guy who isn't the quickest of players out the triple threat, or off the dribble. MJ would destroy Leonard off the dribble. He did so against similar guys all the time: Richard Dumas, Stacey Augmon, Gerald Wilkins, Byron Russell.


I don't think Jordan would blow past him as easily as you think. Besides, I don't really understand your point about long and athletic SF's being easier to beat off the dribble.
They have the length, but not the foot speed. Longer guys can test your dribble, and your jumper. On really quick guards, that length doesn't mean much.

See how Kobe struggled so bad in 2004 with Prince, and then in 2005 sophomore Wade absolutely shredded him to pieces. Prime MJ had the diversity of his offensive game like prime Wade, and prime Kobe combined.


As for Marion, I don't care if Jordan had a good game against him. That doesn't mean it isn't a tough matchup. Kobe obliterated Shane Battier, AK-47, and Raja Bell plenty of times. Doesn't mean they didn't make him work for his points.
Yea but Kobe was playing against dudes who were his contemporaries age wise, and athletically. Floor Jordan had NO ATHLETICISM, was ancient basketball wise and torched prime Shawn Marion. You don't think a Jordan of higher physical capability wouldn't make that matchup difference even more dramatic?

[andgar923]

Leonard would do a great job guarding Jordan actually. I don't know about old man Marion in 2011, but prime Matrix would be a tough matchup for Jordan.

But yes, I agree with the general premise of your post.
are you serious?

Wizards MJ took him to school.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pd9ayPlqCMg&spfreload=10&ab_channel=Balthus23

Bron wishes he could be as versatile.

[Prometheus]

shaking my damn head at this bullshit about "kawhi would do a good job on jordan". michael jordan was unguardable

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

are you serious?

Wizards MJ took him to school.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pd9ayPlqCMg&spfreload=10&ab_channel=Balthus23

Bron wishes he could be as versatile.

Keep in mind this was prior to the handchecking ban. Old Yeller sonned "Matrix" like he was his child. :oldlol:

[Heavincent]

are you serious?

Wizards MJ took him to school.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pd9ayPlqCMg&spfreload=10&ab_channel=Balthus23

Bron wishes he could be as versatile.

Jordan got hot and made a bunch of tough shots. Cool. Doesn't disprove anything I'm saying. I didn't say Marion would lock him down and hold him to 35% shooting, I just said he would make him work for his points. Leonard and Marion would be much better matchups against Jordan than your average defender. Only someone as insecure as you would be offended by a statement like that.

[Graviton]

Kawhi has issues dealing with Westbrook off the dribble, and MJ is better than Westbrook at everything. Nobody is going to stop or even "limit" Peak Jordan 1v1.

[andgar923]

Jordan got hot and made a bunch of tough shots. Cool. Doesn't disprove anything I'm saying. I didn't say Marion would lock him down and hold him to 35% shooting, I just said he would make him work for his points. Leonard and Marion would be much better matchups against Jordan than your average defender. Only someone as insecure as you would be offended by a statement like that.

Cheap way of saying you're an idiot and got caught.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Leonard and Marion would be much better matchups against Jordan than your average defender.
That's fair. But it sounded like you think either one of those guys would have significant impact on PRIME Jordan.

'90 - '93 Mike would destroy either one of those guys. And neither one would be winning Finals MVP over him.

Jordan is a quicker, more skilled scorer than Bron. Without such reliance on picks.

And MJ is a superior athlete, attacker, and finisher compared to Kobe. Pick your poison. If His Airness was making Pippen cry in practice asking him to chill in one on one, I'm sure those guys would be no big issues in a series.

It takes an elite all-time great quality team defense, and physicality to even attempt to limit Jordan: Bad Boy Pistons, '93 Knicks, '96 Sonics, and '97 Heat.

[Ariza4three]

http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/Magneto-Evil-Laugh-X-Men.gif

[Ariza4three]

I have to supplement this statement by saying that this is my opinion only because I never saw Jordan or Shaq play in their primes and I have an irrational hatred for Kobe. If I even watched one of Shaq's finals, let alone early 90s Jordan I'd realize that I couldn't say this without some sort of silly rationalization.

[tpols]

Kawhi has issues dealing with Westbrook off the dribble, and MJ is better than Westbrook at everything. Nobody is going to stop or even "limit" Peak Jordan 1v1.
Agree.. Only thing Bron does better than MJ is the one man army style of play.. I would trust LeBron to carry a poor or mediocre team farther than MJ could because he's more well rounded with his passing and rebounding, but on good teams where he needs to be a first option scorer mj crushes him.

[Milbuck]

I have to supplement this statement by saying that this is my opinion only because I never saw Jordan or Shaq play in their primes and I have an irrational hatred for Kobe. If I even watched one of Shaq's finals, let alone early 90s Jordan I'd realize that I couldn't say this without some sort of silly rationalization.
:oldlol:

[Heavincent]

Cheap way of saying you're an idiot and got caught.

Got caught what? Saying that Marion was a great perimeter defender and would do a better job guarding Jordan than most players?

It's actually hilarious how insecure you are are. I say that Leonard and Marion are great perimeter defenders and you lose your shit :oldlol: I literally didn't even say anything remotely negative about Jordan. You must have missed the part where I agreed that Jordan definitely wouldn't get shut down like Bran in 2011 or lose the FMVP to his position match up.

[Ariza4three]

http://i.cdn.turner.com/nba/nba/teamsites/images/legacy/wizards/act_kirk_hinrich.jpg
This guy was considered a good defender in the 00's. All I need to know about that era.

[La Frescobaldi]

True

I'd argue that LeBron holds 2 out of the 5 greatest individual performanes of the 21st century

LeBron's NBA record 25 points in a row against Detroit (Wilt or MJ never did this), LeBron's 45 against Boston, Kobe's 81, Dwyane Wade game 3, Shaq 2001 game 1
http://www.nba.com/history/records/regular_fieldgoals.html

Most consecutive field goals, no misses, season
35-Wilt Chamberlain, Philadelphia, February 17-February 28, 1967

[Prime_Shaq]

I have to supplement this statement by saying that this is my opinion only because I never saw Jordan or Shaq play in their primes and I have an irrational hatred for Kobe. If I even watched one of Shaq's finals, let alone early 90s Jordan I'd realize that I couldn't say this without some sort of silly rationalization.
Well then you should start, you are a Magic fan so you should learn some history of your franchise.
http://ballislife.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/reebok-shaq-attaq-release-date-1.jpg

[La Frescobaldi]

http://i.cdn.turner.com/nba/nba/teamsites/images/legacy/wizards/act_kirk_hinrich.jpg
This guy was considered a good defender in the 00's. All I need to know about that era.
he's a good defender now.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

http://i.cdn.turner.com/nba/nba/teamsites/images/legacy/wizards/act_kirk_hinrich.jpg
This guy was considered a good defender in the 00's. All I need to know about that era.

http://media.giphy.com/media/gmQNYr9nnbXxu/giphy.gif

[La Frescobaldi]

http://media.giphy.com/media/gmQNYr9nnbXxu/giphy.gif

:lol

[Ariza4three]

That's not me saying that shit.

[christian1923]

For me

1kobe
2shaq
3lebron and Duncan tied

[Prime_Shaq]

For me

1kobe
2shaq
3lebron and Duncan tied
Not to bash your opinion but do you mind explaining how you rank Kobe over Shaq?

[Ariza4three]

For me

1kobe
2shaq
3lebron and Duncan tied
For you
http://media.tumblr.com/e882717e0101a60cb3ab5aef91bf538a/tumblr_inline_n2d561TPN01qeixlc.jpg

[christian1923]

Not to bash your opinion but do you mind explaining how you rank Kobe over Shaq?
He did it longer and he won more.

[coin24]

Name them ...

MJ never had a 2010 ECSF, 2011 Finals, or 2014 Finals moment being out played at his position for half the series. And the guy he guarded ended up getting Finals MVP. This is as believable as your MJ flop mix tape.

:roll: :roll: :roll:

I didn't see MJ getting out played by Richard Dumas, Byron Russell or Dan Majerle. Or getting torched defensively by 6th men like Terry did LeBron in the 2011 Finals.


this:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

[Prime_Shaq]

He did it longer and he won more.
Well Shaq was still producing at 36 years old with the Suns. While on the Cavs and Celtics he was regularly holding his own against most of the bigs in the league and more specifically Dwight (Consensus best C at the time).

[SamuraiSWISH]

Agree.. Only thing Bron does better than MJ is the one man army style of play.. I would trust LeBron to carry a poor or mediocre team farther than MJ could because he's more well rounded with his passing and rebounding, but on good teams where he needs to be a first option scorer mj crushes him.
Agreed.

Pippen to a lesser extent as well. I mean he was basically the prototype of LeBron. One man armies, that because of their size to play in both front court, wing, and back court ... big forwards with guard abilities can carry very mediocre talent. But they have a ceiling on how far they can take a team as consistently.

Kobe like Jordan is better with good teams compared to LeBron, due to his elite reliable half court scoring skill niche, confidence, and closing ability. Kobe's just not as dramatic of a quality difference v.s. LeBron compared to Jordan.

[JohnFreeman]

Look at these idiots falling for trolling bait.

[miles berg]

I would take Jordan, Bird, Magic, & Shaq over him without debate. But he is definitely the best player in the last decade without hesitation.

[COnDEMnED]

I would take Jordan, Bird, Magic, & Shaq over him without debate. But he is definitely the best player in the last decade without hesitation.
The best player since 2001? Ummmm...

Edit: You're fast, lol

[christian1923]

Well Shaq was still producing at 36 years old with the Suns. While on the Cavs and Celtics he was regularly holding his own against most of the bigs in the league and more specifically Dwight (Consensus best C at the time).
Yeah he was great. I got him at 2

[BigBoss]

$5 bounty on OP's head for being a fakkit.

[JebronLames]

He's the GOAT.

[Prime_Shaq]

He's the GOAT.
Not even close :no: maybe in the future but not yet

[poido123]

Not surprising when OP is 16 and a virgin :rolleyes:


Orlando is full of scrubs, I can understand he has low standards :lol

[sportjames23]

Peak Shaq is the best player I have seen live in terms of peak play. LeBron and Jordan come close behind that.


MJ >>>>>>>> peak Shaq >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lebron

[COnDEMnED]

No bullshit, no trolling. He's the GOAT. Plain and simple. He would have been even more dominant in the 90's with a stacked team like MJ had.
Take this test Jameer.
http://http://i1370.photobucket.com/albums/ag241/Anonymous_camo/jameerwillfailthis_zps3a07d85b.jpg (http://s1370.photobucket.com/user/Anonymous_camo/media/jameerwillfailthis_zps3a07d85b.jpg.html)

[Angel Face]

Lebron isn't close to being the greatest. 2/5 won't make you the greatest. Choking in the Finals won't make you the greatest. Jumping from team to team when things get tough won't make you the greatest.

[Quickening]

The MJ worship is ridiculous, you would think he never got beat. The guy couldn't get to the finals when he was at his peak in the late 80s, it was only when his competition got old, and Pippen became a top ten player in the league with a great supporting cast, in the chitty 90s he started winning championships.

Half of them coming when he was on the decline.

[julizaver]

No bullshit, no trolling. He's the GOAT. Plain and simple. He would have been even more dominant in the 90's with a stacked team like MJ had.

The greatest ever you have seen ? Yes, in case you are under 24-23 years ...

Could he been more dominant in the 90's with the stacked Bulls ? NO, he could not blended with Pippen and Rodman/Grant/Kukoc the same way MJ did, BECAUSE he plays forward position and MJ was SG. He blended better with a team like HEAT, rather than just switching places with MJ in 90's Bulls.

What Lebron's HEAT missing badly was the true center, even some of moderated quality, Bosh and Anderson or Haslem are by no means bigs. Oden stayed too long out of the game, and had almost zero impact last season. With Bosh at center HEAT was small ball club. 90's Bulls have at least two true big 7ft bodies every time during their 90's reign. That's why for me they are more stacked than the HEAT.

[JebronLames]

The MJ worship is ridiculous, you would think he never got beat. The guy couldn't get to the finals when he was at his peak in the late 80s, it was only when his competition got old, and Pippen became a top ten player in the league with a great supporting cast, in the chitty 90s he started winning championships.

Half of them coming when he was on the decline.
plus ref protection.

[Prime_Shaq]

MJ >>>>>>>> peak Shaq >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lebron
:no:
Peak Shaq is definitely comparable to MJ

[poido123]

The MJ worship is ridiculous, you would think he never got beat. The guy couldn't get to the finals when he was at his peak in the late 80s, it was only when his competition got old, and Pippen became a top ten player in the league with a great supporting cast, in the chitty 90s he started winning championships.

Half of them coming when he was on the decline.


Why does MJ get brought into this Discussion?

[AussieG]

Even at his peak Shaq had some big weaknesses to his game, MJ had none.

[Prime_Shaq]

Even at his peak Shaq had some big weaknesses to his game, MJ had none.
Shaq was more dominant.

[Trollsmasher]

brans 2 most memorable games are against non contending teams which is boston and detroit. And they are so proud of it. Youre standards are so low bran stans.

Meanwhile jordan had a playoff record 63 points against the GOAT team
yeah

and they lost because of his shotjacking and he proceeded to quit on his team in the very next game by purposefully fouling out

[rmt]

The MJ worship is ridiculous, you would think he never got beat. The guy couldn't get to the finals when he was at his peak in the late 80s, it was only when his competition got old, and Pippen became a top ten player in the league with a great supporting cast, in the chitty 90s he started winning championships.

Half of them coming when he was on the decline.

Is this not a testament to MJ's patience and greatness then that he stuck it out and still won SO MUCH? - unlike Lebron who has stacked/is still stacking the deck as far as team mates/talent is concerned but who still has won SO LITTLE (in comparison)?

I'm no MJ fan (thought his HOF speech was the most egotistical yet especially compared to Stockton, DRob and Sloan) but there is no doubt in my mind that he is the GOAT. He and all his opponents knew that when the game was on line, MJ was gonna find some way to win. He had such an aura - I've never seen such competitiveness in my life. It's in this area where MJ was vastly superior that Lebron does poorly (relatively) - he's not particularly clutch and he's team-hopping to win.

[Quickening]

Is this not a testament to MJ's patience and greatness then that he stuck it out and still won SO MUCH? - unlike Lebron who has stacked/is still stacking the deck as far as team mates/talent is concerned but who still has won SO LITTLE (in comparison)?

I'm no MJ fan (thought his HOF speech was the most egotistical yet especially compared to Stockton, DRob and Sloan) but there is no doubt in my mind that he is the GOAT. He and all his opponents knew that when the game was on line, MJ was gonna find some way to win. He had such an aura - I've never seen such competitiveness in my life. It's in this area where MJ was vastly superior that Lebron does poorly (relatively) - he's not particularly clutch and he's team-hopping to win.

You're comparing Cleveland to Chicago... Lebron spent 7 years in Cleveland, and the management were terrible. MJ didn't enter the league at 18 like Lebron, and after 7 years was surrounded by great players.

At least Lebron didn't jump sports to take a break.

[Keno]

cosign. underrated most of the time too.

[Jlamb47]

Lebron James ?? If he had the most stacked team???
People act like Lebron didnt have Wade,Bosh,Irving,Love, all All stars
Also 2/5 < 6/6

[dreamwarrior]

There's something about his game that just isn't what I'd call greatness level. When he gets shut down there's nothing he can do to get out of it and contribute. Durant is kind of the same way. You shut down his shooting and he looks like a lost duck out there. But guys like Harden and Kobe, they find a way to contribute out there even if they're struggling in one area.

[dubnation]

There's something about his game that just isn't what I'd call greatness level. When he gets shut down there's nothing he can do to get out of it and contribute. Durant is kind of the same way. You shut down his shooting and he looks like a lost duck out there. But guys like Harden and Kobe, they find a way to contribute out there even if they're struggling in one area.

:facepalm are you f***** kidding?

[Badazzwriter]

No bullshit, no trolling. He's the GOAT. Plain and simple. He would have been even more dominant in the 90's with a stacked team like MJ had.
http://www.ultraimg.com/images/Qtavo.gif

[JebronLames]

Lebron James ?? If he had the most stacked team???
People act like Lebron didnt have Wade,Bosh,Irving,Love, all All stars
Also 2/5 < 6/6
Check out wade in the playoffs and miami this year. Look at the cavs record without LeBron.

[Foster5k]

LeBron is an all time great, no doubt about it. However, after watching Michael Jordan play in the 90s, no one has yet to measure up. Michael Jordan was something special. When the ball was in his hands, especially in do or die situations, you almost knew he was going to win the game somehow or some way. I never really felt like that watching LeBron in crunch time. When LeBron get's the ball in those situations, I find myself hoping he can pull out a victory. With Michael, I knew he would pull out a victory. Big difference. The difference from being an all time great and being the G.O.A.T. like MJ.

[Beastmode88]

Check out wade in the playoffs and miami this year. Look at the cavs record without LeBron.

father time + aging knees. miami has tons of injuries but yet they still were able to beat lebron on christmas day.

[Megabox!]

There's something about his game that just isn't what I'd call greatness level. When he gets shut down there's nothing he can do to get out of it and contribute. Durant is kind of the same way. You shut down his shooting and he looks like a lost duck out there. But guys like Harden and Kobe, they find a way to contribute out there even if they're struggling in one area.
This entire post is just :facepalm

[Budadiiii]

You haven't watched Durant play, Jameer? They don't play OKC games in Alabama like they played Heat games these last few years, so it's understandable.

[kamil]

Lebron James is the greatest player I have ever seen

You haven't seen much then.

[tomtucker]

in 10 years time he will be remembed as a jerkoff who skipped back and forth between teams, only to win rings for himself....not giving a shit about the fans of the teams and the fans who pays his 20 mil a year salary..........or most likely not remembered at all.........meanwhile Kobe and Jordan will be remembered forever, for their love and passion for the game itself

[Asukal]

GOAT flopper I've seen. :applause: :bowdown:

[2010splash]

LeBron James is the greatest player of all-time. If you're judging purely off accolades and awards, then you'll find guys with more decorated careers like Jordan, Kobe, Magic, Russell, etc. But that's not what makes a player the greatest.

For example, Bill Russell has 11 titles but does anyone consider him the greatest? No way, because he won his titles in a WEAK era and competition was WEAK back in the 60's. Put Russell in today's strong era and he would look similar to a Mutombo, Ben Wallace, Chandler, etc.

Jordan was a great player, but I struggle to see what exactly he did better than LeBron. LeBron is a comparable volume scorer, much more efficient, a much better rebounder and passer/playmaker, much better teammate, more clutch, better at steals/blocks and a far more versatile defensive player, a better transition player, better 3-point shooter, and on and on and on.

Jordan is probably the #2 player of all-time imo. LeBron for me is #1.

[Prometheus]

LeBron James is the greatest player of all-time. If you're judging purely off accolades and awards, then you'll find guys with more decorated careers like Jordan, Kobe, Magic, Russell, etc. But that's not what makes a player the greatest.

For example, Bill Russell has 11 titles but does anyone consider him the greatest? No way, because he won his titles in a WEAK era and competition was WEAK back in the 60's. Put Russell in today's strong era and he would look similar to a Mutombo, Ben Wallace, Chandler, etc.

Jordan was a great player, but I struggle to see what exactly he did better than LeBron. LeBron is a comparable volume scorer, much more efficient, a much better rebounder and passer/playmaker, much better teammate, more clutch, better at steals/blocks and a far more versatile defensive player, a better transition player, better 3-point shooter, and on and on and on.

Jordan is probably the #2 player of all-time imo. LeBron for me is #1.

more clutch
more clutch
more clutch


:coleman:

lame troll

[2010splash]

:coleman:

lame troll
You don't have any arguments so you resort to childish name-calling.

Fact: LeBron leads NBA history in PPG in elimination games

Fact: LeBron had the single greatest playoff performance with the 2012 ECF Game 6 elimination game at Boston - 45/15/5

Fact: LeBron had the epic 27 out of 28 points against Detroit in 2007 ECF Game 5

Fact: LeBron had the most clutch Game 7 Finals performance ever in 2013 against San Antonio - 37/12/4 plus the Finals-winning jumper with 20 something seconds left.

Now sit down.

[Prometheus]

You don't have any arguments so you resort to childish name-calling.

Fact: LeBron leads NBA history in PPG in elimination games

Fact: LeBron had the single greatest playoff performance with the 2012 ECF Game 6 elimination game at Boston - 45/15/5

Fact: LeBron had the epic 27 out of 28 points against Detroit in 2007 ECF Game 5

Fact: LeBron had the most clutch Game 7 Finals performance ever in 2013 against San Antonio - 37/12/4 plus the Finals-winning jumper with 20 something seconds left.

Now sit down.

dawg... I don't need an argument. you said LeBron was more clutch than MJ. you lose automatically

[TheMarkMadsen]

You don't have any arguments so you resort to childish name-calling.

Fact: LeBron leads NBA history in PPG in elimination games

Fact: LeBron had the single greatest playoff performance with the 2012 ECF Game 6 elimination game at Boston - 45/15/5

Fact: LeBron had the epic 27 out of 28 points against Detroit in 2007 ECF Game 5

Fact: LeBron had the most clutch Game 7 Finals performance ever in 2013 against San Antonio - 37/12/4 plus the Finals-winning jumper with 20 something seconds left.

Now sit down.

:roll: :roll:

[Angel Face]

LeBron James is the greatest player of all-time. If you're judging purely off accolades and awards, then you'll find guys with more decorated careers like Jordan, Kobe, Magic, Russell, etc. But that's not what makes a player the greatest.

For example, Bill Russell has 11 titles but does anyone consider him the greatest? No way, because he won his titles in a WEAK era and competition was WEAK back in the 60's. Put Russell in today's strong era and he would look similar to a Mutombo, Ben Wallace, Chandler, etc.

Jordan was a great player, but I struggle to see what exactly he did better than LeBron. LeBron is a comparable volume scorer, much more efficient, a much better rebounder and passer/playmaker, much better teammate, more clutch, better at steals/blocks and a far more versatile defensive player, a better transition player, better 3-point shooter, and on and on and on.

Jordan is probably the #2 player of all-time imo. LeBron for me is #1.

http://replygif.net/i/1249.gif

[Cold soul]

Lebron more than likely will end his career as top 5 GOAT as much as it pains me to say.

[dude77]

2010 i really hope you're trolling on purpose .. lebron needed ray allen to hit a miracle 3 just to save his ass from being 1-5 in the finals .. lebron doesn't belong in the same building as jordan

[Prime_Shaq]

LeBron James is the greatest player of all-time. If you're judging purely off accolades and awards, then you'll find guys with more decorated careers like Jordan, Kobe, Magic, Russell, etc. But that's not what makes a player the greatest.

For example, Bill Russell has 11 titles but does anyone consider him the greatest? No way, because he won his titles in a WEAK era and competition was WEAK back in the 60's. Put Russell in today's strong era and he would look similar to a Mutombo, Ben Wallace, Chandler, etc.

Jordan was a great player, but I struggle to see what exactly he did better than LeBron. LeBron is a comparable volume scorer, much more efficient, a much better rebounder and passer/playmaker, much better teammate, more clutch, better at steals/blocks and a far more versatile defensive player, a better transition player, better 3-point shooter, and on and on and on.

Jordan is probably the #2 player of all-time imo. LeBron for me is #1.
He's got the potential to surpass Jordan and Peak Shaq but he ain't there yet.

[poido123]

You're comparing Cleveland to Chicago... Lebron spent 7 years in Cleveland, and the management were terrible. MJ didn't enter the league at 18 like Lebron, and after 7 years was surrounded by great players.

At least Lebron didn't jump sports to take a break.


:roll:


You mean, he went and honored a wish of his late father and played baseball while risking his reputation in doing So?

I think that took a lot of courage when you have the stature of jordan at the time. He performed quite admirably and certainly wasn't a disgrace in baseball.

He came back and showed the world he still could dominate basketball. It's a shame you probably never grew up and lived through the jordan years. The guy presence generated so much buzz and anticipation, the fans genuinely thought he was capable of anything.

The "get everything now" generation in which you live in, will never fully appreciate or understand how solid nba basketball was during and before the 90's. Games had more passion and guys had to earn everything they got.

[Asukal]

Jordan was a great player, but I struggle to see what exactly he did better than LeBron. LeBron is a comparable volume scorer, much more efficient, a much better rebounder and passer/playmaker, much better teammate, more clutch, better at steals/blocks and a far more versatile defensive player, a better transition player, better 3-point shooter, and on and on and on.

- comparable scorer? :oldlol:
- more efficient? they are about even in career FG%
- better rebounder? MJ is one of the best rebounding 2 guard ever. LJ can't even match "unathletic" Bird's rebounding average and they play the same position. :rolleyes:
- better passer? maybe but MJ is a great passer as well
- much better team mate? LJ can't even play off the ball without being totally useless
- more clutch? Like you mean 2011 and getting bailed out by ray allen's 3? and then there's the cramp game, then losing to old ass duncan while getting ass raped by role player "kawaii" leonard? :oldlol:
- better at steal/blocks and defense? :facepalm
- better transition player? :biggums:
- better 3 point shooter? Yeah I'd give him this one, doesn't make him a better scorer though

Almost all your arguments are flatout wrong... :facepalm

[TheMan]

No bullshit, no trolling. He's the GOAT. Plain and simple. He would have been even more dominant in the 90's with a stacked team like MJ had.
:oldlol: Imagine LeBron playing in a triangle offense, lol. If he were in those Bulls, a triangle offense isn't an option and LeBron Ball would make Pippen, Grant and the rest of the team spot up shooters.

An OP this retarded deserves no serious response...though in your title you did say the greatest you've ever seen. I know you wouldn't say that if you saw prime MJ.

[TheMan]

I didn't neg you, but seriously calm down with that zealot stuff.

Jordan is the best, but that's because I watched him play (PEAK Shaq is still the GOAT, in my opinion). For all we know, OP could still be pissing himself.
I agree that peak Shaq is right there with MJ but Shaq had one major weakness in his game (hack-a-Shaq) while MJ literally had none, that puts MJ a hair above Shaq peak to peak IMO.

[sportjames23]

He's got the potential to surpass Jordan and Peak Shaq but he ain't there yet.


No, he really doesn't.

[Prometheus]

No, he really doesn't.

gotta agree with sportjames here. lebron could win five more rings and it wouldnt matter. jordan was better on the court, the end.

[DatAsh]

gotta agree with sportjames here. lebron could win five more rings and it wouldnt matter. jordan was better on the court, the end.

He still has a chance. Year for year I agree, Jordan has been the better player, but Lebron - though it's unlikely given his age - could still find a way to raise his level of play; and then there's the aspect of longevity. Lebron will probably play more years than Jordan did.

[Prime_Shaq]

I agree that peak Shaq is right there with MJ but Shaq had one major weakness in his game (hack-a-Shaq) while MJ literally had none, that puts MJ a hair above Shaq peak to peak IMO.
Yeah but hack a Shaq would still limit the opponents fouls a game anyway. Btw Shaq makes em when they count

[Milbuck]

What is the criteria for greatness? Because I honestly see no reason why Shaq isn't in everyone's top 5. His 3-peat run is better than anything anyone has done outside of Jordan. People routinely rank Bird in the top 5 for his peak play, despite having less rings and worse longevity than players below him. But why doesn't this apply to Shaq? Dude has underrated longevity (26/12/3/3/1 over 15 seasons, with 13 straight 20-10 seasons), 4 rings, and his peak play is imo #2 with a better case for #1 than anyone obviously aside from Jordan.
He still has a chance. Year for year I agree, Jordan has been the better player, but Lebron - though it's unlikely given his age - could still find a way to raise his level of play; and then there's the aspect of longevity. Lebron will probably play more years than Jordan did.
What could Lebron possibly do to elevate his game beyond 90, 91 Jordan? Lebron's played some of the most incredible basketball I've seen..but there's zero shame in not reaching apex Jordan's level. The dude was as close to a perfect basketball player as you'll find.

[funnystuff]

Yeah but hack a Shaq would still limit the opponents fouls a game anyway. Btw Shaq makes em when they count
They always count.

[DatAsh]

What could Lebron possibly do to elevate his game beyond 90, 91 Jordan? Lebron's played some of the most incredible basketball I've seen..but there's zero shame in not reaching apex Jordan's level. The dude was as close to a perfect basketball player as you'll find.

It's unlikely, but it's not impossible. I do honestly think his best years are behind him, and his best years weren't as good as Jordan's best, but it's not unheard of for players to peak after age 30.

[Milbuck]

It's unlikely, but it's not impossible. I do honestly think his best years are behind him, and his best years weren't as good as Jordan's best, but it's not unheard of for players to peak after age 30.
I guess it's not totally impossible, but the odds are very much against him. I'd say the best way for him to maximize his game going forward would be to play full-time PF. His post game has improved dramatically since he entered the league, his jumper has evolved, his passing out of the post would be incredibly valuable, and it would allow Irving to maximize his game as well. He can still orchestrate in transition, and play PG when he absolutely needs to, when the offense gets stagnant. The only problem is Love being there.

[Badazzwriter]

You don't have any arguments so you resort to childish name-calling.

Fact: LeBron leads NBA history in PPG in elimination games

Fact: LeBron had the single greatest playoff performance with the 2012 ECF Game 6 elimination game at Boston - 45/15/5

Fact: LeBron had the epic 27 out of 28 points against Detroit in 2007 ECF Game 5

Fact: LeBron had the most clutch Game 7 Finals performance ever in 2013 against San Antonio - 37/12/4 plus the Finals-winning jumper with 20 something seconds left.

Now sit down.
https://38.media.tumblr.com/7dc433a7fd2cbc1730886d5ff46af248/tumblr_ml2dnzk2az1rxde6go1_400.gif

[SamuraiSWISH]

(26/12/3/3/1 over 15 seasons, with 13 straight 20-10 seasons), 4 rings, and his peak play is imo #2 with a better case for #1 than anyone obviously aside from Jordan.
What could Lebron possibly do to elevate his game beyond 90, 91 Jordan? Lebron's played some of the most incredible basketball I've seen..but there's zero shame in not reaching apex Jordan's level. The dude was as close to a perfect basketball player as you'll find.
:applause: ... Made my dick hard.

As far as peaks go that I've seen:

1) MJ '90 - '93
2) Shaq '98 - 2002
3) LeBron 2009 - 2013

[Badazzwriter]

:applause: ... Made my dick hard.

As far as peaks go that I've seen:

1) MJ '90 - '93
2) Shaq '98 - 2002
3) LeBron 2009 - 2013
:facepalm

[Soundwave]

I've been watching since 1990, so from the time I would say the best players (peak) I've seen are

Jordan > Shaq > LeBron = Kobe > Duncan > Hakeem > Wade = Durant > Karl Malone > David Robinson = Dirk

Then you have a bunch of guys I'd consider more or less equal at their peak (Iverson, Garnett, Barkley, Pippen, Drexler, etc.).

I can't say Shaq was more dominant than Jordan simply because Jordan was much more effective in a clutch/close game situation while still being a great player for the first 3 quarters. But 4th quarter of close game? I take Jordan over Shaq 10/10 times.

Not just the free throws thing but he often couldn't get the ball or get a good shot off in crunch time (can't just dunk your way to victory every time).

That's why Shaq I think lost a number of times in the playoffs even when he had the equal/better team, whereas Jordan never did.

[Magic 32]

Fact: LeBron leads NBA history in PPG in elimination games


Allowing inferior teams in the (L)east to push you to 7 games is no great achievement.



Fact: LeBron had the single greatest playoff performance with the 2012 ECF Game 6 elimination game at Boston - 45/15/5

Fact: LeBron had the epic 27 out of 28 points against Detroit in 2007 ECF Game 5


Boh games against former great teams, now with one leg in the grave.



Fact: LeBron had the most clutch Game 7 Finals performance ever in 2013 against San Antonio - 37/12/4 plus the Finals-winning jumper with 20 something seconds left.


A flat out lie.

And the rest is BS too...

http://img.spokeo.com/public/900-600/dennis_rodman_1988_06_01.jpg

Now you can sit down.

[SamuraiSWISH]

I've been watching since 1990, so from the time I would say the best players (peak) I've seen are
Me too, these would be the "man" by pyramid of hierarchy ... according to me.

Jordan
Shaq, LeBron
Kobe, Hakeem, Duncan
Wade, Durant, Malone, Robinson, Barkley, Garnett
Iverson, Drexler, Dirk, Pippen, Nash, CP3, McGrady, Pierce


I can't say Shaq was more dominant than Jordan simply because Jordan was much more effective in a clutch/close game situation while still being a great player for the first 3 quarters. But 4th quarter of close game? I take Jordan over Shaq 10/10 times.

Not just the free throws thing but he often couldn't get the ball or get the shot off in crunch situations.

That's why Shaq I think lost a number of times in the playoffs even when he had the equal/better team, whereas Jordan never did.
Absolutely.

A point that gets completely lost on people. The free throws, ability to create a shot for himself due to being a guard, and late game / clutch ability separates Mike from Shaq. Along with durability.

And even if the Lakers revolved around Shaq ... no one can deny the fact Kobe by the 2001 season wasn't producing like a run of the mill sidekick. He was producing like a first option, and taking over in clutch situations. When it gets difficult to even get Shaq the ball. It was never even questioned during MJ's prime that a teammate of his was arguably better.

[pauk]

Me too, these would be the "man" by pyramid of hierarchy ... according to me.

Jordan
Shaq, LeBron
Kobe, Hakeem, Duncan
Wade, Durant, Malone, Robinson, Barkley, Garnett
Iverson, Drexler, Dirk, Pippen, Nash, CP3, McGrady, Pierce


Agree!

[sportjames23]

I've been watching since 1990, so from the time I would say the best players (peak) I've seen are

Jordan > Shaq > LeBron = Kobe > Duncan > Hakeem > Wade = Durant > Karl Malone > David Robinson = Dirk

Then you have a bunch of guys I'd consider more or less equal at their peak (Iverson, Garnett, Barkley, Pippen, Drexler, etc.).

I can't say Shaq was more dominant than Jordan simply because Jordan was much more effective in a clutch/close game situation while still being a great player for the first 3 quarters. But 4th quarter of close game? I take Jordan over Shaq 10/10 times.

Not just the free throws thing but he often couldn't get the ball or get a good shot off in crunch time (can't just dunk your way to victory every time).

That's why Shaq I think lost a number of times in the playoffs even when he had the equal/better team, whereas Jordan never did.


Bingo. This. All this.

This is why I take MJ over peak Shaq.

[Prime_Shaq]

Me too, these would be the "man" by pyramid of hierarchy ... according to me.

Jordan
Shaq, LeBron
Kobe, Hakeem, Duncan
Wade, Durant, Malone, Robinson, Barkley, Garnett
Iverson, Drexler, Dirk, Pippen, Nash, CP3, McGrady, Pierce

Sorry but how prime Shaq dominated the league at his peak is enough to put him on the same tier as Jordan for me. His overall career definitely loses out to the goat MJ but in terms of peak for me he's right up there with him.

[Anaximandro1]

Basketball Reference has added Playoff BPM

BPM -> Box Score Estimate of the points per 100 Possessions a player contributed above a league-average player, translated to an average team


TOP individual Playoff Runs (Title Runs)

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-bsqHo2AUZ_o/VNngkPAie1I/AAAAAAAADxA/wvbBCAwmKI8/s1600/8.jpg



-Jordan and Duncan ahead of LeBron

-Bird deserves the benefit of the doubt ... LeBron had the easiest paths to the Finals (historically weak East, Heat collusion, perimeter friendly rules, lack of dominant big men in the league)

[fiddy]

advanced stats=shit

[La Frescobaldi]

Basketball Reference has added Playoff BPM

BPM -> Box Score Estimate of the points per 100 Possessions a player contributed above a league-average player, translated to an average team


TOP individual Playoff Runs (Title Runs)

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-bsqHo2AUZ_o/VNngkPAie1I/AAAAAAAADxA/wvbBCAwmKI8/s1600/8.jpg



-Jordan and Duncan ahead of LeBron

-Bird deserves the benefit of the doubt ... LeBron had the easiest paths to the Finals (historically weak East, Heat collusion, perimeter friendly rules, lack of dominant big men in the league)

Flopping alone bars him from any contention for the highest accolades.

Can't believe sports writers give anything other than contumely to floppists, let alone MVP awards.

[ShawkFactory]

advanced stats=shit
Completely unsurprising coming from a laker (kobe) fan.

[knicksman]

Completely unsurprising coming from a laker (kobe) fan.

well the stat that matters is 2/5 and 5/7

[ShawkFactory]

well the stat that matters is 2/5 and 5/7
So does 10-42

[pauk]

Basketball Reference has added Playoff BPM

BPM -> Box Score Estimate of the points per 100 Possessions a player contributed above a league-average player, translated to an average team


TOP individual Playoff Runs (Title Runs)

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-bsqHo2AUZ_o/VNngkPAie1I/AAAAAAAADxA/wvbBCAwmKI8/s1600/8.jpg



Is it just individual scoring or total team scoring contribution/accountability (points + assists)?

Because Lebron has maybe the highest offensive accountability in NBA history....

An assist means 2-3 points on the teams boxscore and it is points you helped contribute... remember?

Jordan averaged 30.1 ppg with 5 apg - thats 40.1 to 45.1 PPG for his team.
Lebron averaged 27.4 ppg with 7 ppg - thats 41.4 to 48.4 PPG for his team.

So even though MJ averaged more PPG, Lebron actually contributed more points for his team....

...and that was only higher in playoffs...

[Rose'sACL]

Flopping alone bars him from any contention for the highest accolades.

Can't believe sports writers give anything other than contumely to floppists, let alone MVP awards.
this. lebron needs to be removed from the league and all MVP awards he has won should be taken from him and given to any player who is liked by La Frescobaldi.

[Prime_Shaq]

Is it just individual scoring or total team scoring contribution/accountability (points + assists)?

Because Lebron has maybe the highest offensive accountability in NBA history....

An assist means 2-3 points on the teams boxscore and it is points you helped contribute... remember?

Jordan averaged 30.1 ppg with 5 apg - thats 40.1 to 45.1 PPG for his team.
Lebron averaged 27.4 ppg with 7 ppg - thats 41.4 to 48.4 PPG for his team.

So even though MJ averaged more PPG, Lebron actually contributed more points for his team....

...and that was only higher in playoffs...
Well there's some things those advanced stats don't take account like how MJ and Shaq drew so many double teams which opened up the spacing for their teammates so much more. Shaq doesn't have the APG that MJ or LeBron did because he wasn't the ball handler but his impact goes way more than just the points he scored

[ShawkFactory]

Well there's some things those advanced stats don't take account like how MJ and Shaq drew so many double teams which opened up the spacing for their teammates so much more. Shaq doesn't have the APG that MJ or LeBron did because he wasn't the ball handler but his impact goes way more than just the points he scored
Prime Shaq has an unmatched impact.

Both the player and you as a poster

[Beastmode88]

Is it just individual scoring or total team scoring contribution/accountability (points + assists)?

Because Lebron has maybe the highest offensive accountability in NBA history....

An assist means 2-3 points on the teams boxscore and it is points you helped contribute... remember?

Jordan averaged 30.1 ppg with 5 apg - thats 40.1 to 45.1 PPG for his team.
Lebron averaged 27.4 ppg with 7 ppg - thats 41.4 to 48.4 PPG for his team.

So even though MJ averaged more PPG, Lebron actually contributed more points for his team....

...and that was only higher in playoffs...

So why didn't Lebron contribute more in 2011 finals? He had his best chance of winning a ring but folded under the pressure? The PRESSURE? :lol When you compare number it's very vague. Jordan was double teamed and had to carry the offensive load himself while bran bran was double but was able to kick it out to all stars.

[Soundwave]

Sorry but how prime Shaq dominated the league at his peak is enough to put him on the same tier as Jordan for me. His overall career definitely loses out to the goat MJ but in terms of peak for me he's right up there with him.

Having a "louder" game doesn't necessarily mean "better".

Yes Shaq's impact especially when he overpowers someone and dunks in their face is more noticable than say getting scored on by a jump shot from 15 feet out ... but 2 points is just 2 points.

4th quarter I take Jordan over Shaq every day of the week and twice on Sundays.

Shaq's teams often collapsed in the clutch either because he couldn't hit free throws or couldn't get a good shot off ... you can't just turn and dunk your way to a win all the time.

Unlike Jordan and even LeBron, Shaq also had the benefit of having stacked teams around him from pretty much his second season onwards.

[pauk]

Flopping alone bars him from any contention for the highest accolades.

Can't believe sports writers give anything other than contumely to floppists, let alone MVP awards.

Being caught for trying to draw a foul doesnt take anything away Lebron (or Jordan) ever achieved.... so im not even sure why you would even mention that....

Why not just go: "Hey, i hate Lebron, im jelous of him in honor of my favorite player (Kobe probably right?), dont want him to be compared to anybody especially not Jordan, hate him soooo damn much i dont want him to achieve anything, he has surpassed my fav player already, omg, please oh god please!"

Makes more sense that way and you no longer need to make any stupid reasons to try and strip away his entire career simply because he tried to draw a foul & got caught or traveled or... airballed... or whatever....

[Hey Yo]

Basketball Reference has added Playoff BPM

BPM -> Box Score Estimate of the points per 100 Possessions a player contributed above a league-average player, translated to an average team


TOP individual Playoff Runs (Title Runs)

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-bsqHo2AUZ_o/VNngkPAie1I/AAAAAAAADxA/wvbBCAwmKI8/s1600/8.jpg



-Jordan and Duncan ahead of LeBron

-Bird deserves the benefit of the doubt ... LeBron had the easiest paths to the Finals (historically weak East, Heat collusion, perimeter friendly rules, lack of dominant big men in the league)
No, that would be the 87 Lakers.

The 3 teams they beat to get to the Finals were a combined 10 games under .500

[Beastmode88]

Being caught for trying to draw a foul doesnt take anything away Lebron (or Jordan) ever achieved.... so im not even sure why you would even mention that....

Why not just go: "Hey, i hate Lebron, im jelous of him in honor of my favorite player (Kobe probably right?), dont want him to be compared to anybody especially not Jordan, hate him soooo damn much i dont want him to achieve anything, he has surpassed my fav player already, omg, please oh god please!"

Makes more sense that way and you no longer need to make any stupid reasons to try and strip away his entire career simply because he tried to draw a foul & got caught or traveled or... airballed... or whatever....

Still waiting on those MJ flops.

[Hey Yo]

So why didn't Lebron contribute more in 2011 finals? He had his best chance of winning a ring but folded under the pressure? The PRESSURE? :lol When you compare number it's very vague. Jordan was double teamed and had to carry the offensive load himself while bran bran was double but was able to kick it out to all stars.
Prior agreement to let Wade be 1st option so he could have one last chance at another FMVP.

James held back to let Wade try to lead WADE's team to another title.

Wade failed.

[Lebron23]

No, that would be the 87 Lakers.

The 3 teams they beat to get to the Finals were a combined 10 games under .500


This

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/1987.html

39-43 Seattle Super Sonics
42-40 Golden State Warriors
37-45 Denver Nuggets

Weak Sauce Conference. And that team were more stacked than the 2011-2014 Miami Heat.


Prior agreement to let Wade be 1st option so he could have one last chance at another FMVP.

James held back to let Wade try to lead WADE's team to another title.

Wade failed.

Just ignore that clown brother!!

[3ball]

Is it just individual scoring or total team scoring contribution/accountability (points + assists)?


the only way to look at raw production objectively is to use Per-100 Possession stats, since they account for differences in pace and playing time:


Career Per-100 Possessions in the Playoffs:

Lebron: 36.3 PPG, 8.4 APG, 4.5 TO
Jordan: 43.3 PPG, 7.4 APG, 4.0 TO


Jordan with 20% more scoring per 100 possessions in playoffs with equal passing.. that means

Jordan > Lebron
.

[Beastmode88]

Prior agreement to let Wade be 1st option so he could have one last chance at another FMVP.

James held back to let Wade try to lead WADE's team to another title.

Wade failed.

:wtf: :wtf: :wtf: :wtf: :wtf: You're saying he went full beta mode? He took over the celtics in that crazy game but he didn't take over in the finals?

[pauk]

So why didn't Lebron contribute more in 2011 finals? He had his best chance of winning a ring but folded under the pressure? The PRESSURE? :lol When you compare number it's very vague. Jordan was double teamed and had to carry the offensive load himself while bran bran was double but was able to kick it out to all stars.

I know that is the famous simple term for Lebron haters trying to describe what happened there.... but its not as simple as that, what really happened to Lebron in 11' Finals was to much unselfishness for his own good, he was way to passive when he instead should have tried to take shots/score.... He didnt even try, he averaged only something like 14 FGA in that series for gods sake, shooting 48% FG, he didnt even try to score.......... what happened to Lebron there is what could have happened Magic or Bird aswell (and DID).... as they were just as unselfish & had similar mindsets offensively... unselfishness can play against you sometimes....

It couldnt happen to MJ though as he was a chucker & selfish (certainly much more selfish than Lebron).... no pun intended as he was very efficient (unlike Kobe) but still a chucker.... i mean he would still get his PPG if he shot very bad simply because he would take a ridicilous amount of shots... but if he would shoot probably something like 40% FG..... they probably would still not win....

Losing / Playing bad different ways....

Again.... different games / off. mindsets those two Lebron & Jordan....

Lebron is close to and if not at that Jordan level..... but they did it differently, Lebrons offensive mindset is more closer to somebody like Magic or Bird at least... Kobe's is more like Jordan, completely like Jordan actually....

[Prime_Shaq]

Having a "louder" game doesn't necessarily mean "better".

Yes Shaq's impact especially when he overpowers someone and dunks in their face is more noticable than say getting scored on by a jump shot from 15 feet out ... but 2 points is just 2 points.

4th quarter I take Jordan over Shaq every day of the week and twice on Sundays.

Shaq's teams often collapsed in the clutch either because he couldn't hit free throws or couldn't get a good shot off ... you can't just turn and dunk your way to a win all the time.

Unlike Jordan and even LeBron, Shaq also had the benefit of having stacked teams around him from pretty much his second season onwards.
Yeah 2 points is 2 points but the pressure that Shaq applied on the opposing team was still immense. Teams had to clog up the paint so much and had to get bigs on their rosters to foul Shaw exclusively just to have a chance at stopping him. The only person comparable in impact is MJ.

[Beastmode88]

I know that is the famous simple term for Lebron haters trying to describe what happened there.... but its not as simple as that, what really happened to Lebron in 11' Finals was to much unselfishness for his own good, he was way to passive when he instead should have tried to take shots/score.... He didnt even try, he averaged only something like 14 FGA in that series for gods sake, shooting 48% FG, he didnt even try to score.......... what happened to Lebron there is what could have happened Magic or Bird aswell (and DID).... as they were just as unselfish & had similar mindsets offensively... unselfishness can play against you sometimes....

It couldnt happen to MJ though as he was a chucker & selfish (certainly much more selfish than Lebron).... no pun intended as he was very efficient (unlike Kobe) but still a chucker.... i mean he would still get his PPG if he shot very bad simply because he would take a ridicilous amount of shots... but if he would shoot probably something like 40% FG..... they probably would still not win....

Losing / Playing bad different ways....

Again.... different games / off. mindsets those two Lebron & Jordan....

Lebron is close to and if not at that Jordan level..... but they did it differently, Lebron offensive mindset is more closer to somebody like Magic or Bird at least... Kobe's is more like Jordan, completely like Jordan actually....

His OWN unselfishness? On the verge of being closed out by the celtics he went beast mode and destroyed them. But when it came to the mavs he let his unselfishness take over and feed wade the ball? You're essentially saying winning on his own terms meant more to him than winning a team ring? That's ridiculous even in your standards. :biggums:

[OldSchoolBBall]

Is it just individual scoring or total team scoring contribution/accountability (points + assists)?

Because Lebron has maybe the highest offensive accountability in NBA history....

An assist means 2-3 points on the teams boxscore and it is points you helped contribute... remember?

Jordan averaged 30.1 ppg with 5 apg - thats 40.1 to 45.1 PPG for his team.
Lebron averaged 27.4 ppg with 7 ppg - thats 41.4 to 48.4 PPG for his team.

So even though MJ averaged more PPG, Lebron actually contributed more points for his team....

...and that was only higher in playoffs...

Those are not the numbers for the postseason runs in question - why are you mentioning them? Lebron in 2012 accounted for 41.5 ppg by your metric, while 1991 Jordan accounted for 47.9 points.

And Jordan through age 30 averaged 34.8 pts/6.6 ast per game in the playoffs over his career, for 48 points accounted for. Lebron with his 28.0 pts/6.4 ast is at 40.8 points accounted for for his postseason career.

[Hey Yo]

:wtf: :wtf: :wtf: :wtf: :wtf: You're saying he went full beta mode? He took over the celtics in that crazy game but he didn't take over in the finals?
James didn't take over the Finals because of prior agreement.

Coincidence that Wade told media that off season that it was now LeBron's team?

What did we "Witness" the next 3 seasons after Wade announced that?

[3ball]

:wtf: :wtf: :wtf: :wtf: :wtf: You're saying he went full beta mode? He took over the celtics in that crazy game but he didn't take over in the finals?


Lebron's had multiple bad Finals, precluding him from ever being GOAT - and he averages only 24 PPG on 43% FG in the Finals for his career, compared to 34 PPG on 48% FG for Jordan... no comparison.





Those are not the numbers for the postseason runs in question - why are you mentioning them? Lebron in 2012 accounted for 41.5 ppg by your metric, while 1991 Jordan accounted for 47.9 points.

And Jordan through age 30 averaged 34.8 pts/6.6 ast per game in the playoffs over his career, for 48 points accounted for. Lebron with his 28.0 pts/6.4 ast is at 40.8 points accounted for for his postseason career.


Indeed..

Career Per-100 Possessions in the Playoffs:

Lebron: 36.3 PPG, 8.4 APG, 4.5 TO, 116 ORtg
Jordan: 43.3 PPG, 7.4 APG, 4.0 TO, 118 ORtg


Jordan with 20% more scoring per 100 possessions in playoffs with equal passing and better efficiency..

that means Jordan > Lebron
.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Spot on..



Lebron's had multiple bad Finals, precluding him from ever being GOAT - and he averages only 24 PPG on 43% FG in the Finals for his career, compared to 34 PPG on 48% FG for Jordan... no comparison.

Career Per-100 Possessions in the Playoffs:

Lebron: 36.3 PPG, 8.4 APG, 4.5 TO, 116 ORtg
Jordan: 43.3 PPG, 7.4 APG, 4.0 TO, 118 ORtg


Jordan with 20% more scoring per 100 possessions in playoffs with equal passing and better efficiency..

that means Jordan > Lebron
.

Can you do that through age 30 for Jordan (first retirement)? I don't think it's fair to compare a 33-35 year old man to a 30 year old.

[pauk]

His OWN unselfishness? On the verge of being closed out by the celtics he went beast mode and destroyed them. But when it came to the mavs he let his unselfishness take over and feed wade the ball? You're essentially saying winning on his own terms meant more to him than winning a team ring? That's ridiculous even in your standards. :biggums:

When Lebron/Magic/Bird would play bad & lose games it was mostly because of being way to passive, some decision making like that went wrong for that particular game & particular situations during games (should i pass or score), these guys simply wanted to make the right play & trusted their teammates.... they would be FINE dishing the ball the entire game if it meant WIN.... sometimes they would do just that and it seemed it would be a WIN but at the last second it becomes the opposite... a loss... then they *facepalm* and go I SHOULD HAVE BEEN MORE AGRESSIVE TRYING TO SCORE MYSELF (especially Lebron/Bird would think that way)..... but now its to late...

But for Jordan/Kobe it was SCORE SCORE SCORE.... shoot bad or not.... I WANT TO SCORE.....

When Jordan/Kobe would play bad & lose games it was mostly because of having really bad shooting nights, being score-first players they would STILL get their points as they took ALOT of shots no matter how bad they shot.... but the huge amount of missed shots (and most likely little facilitating) causes alot of wasted offensive possessions..... and they lose....

Different games my man....

[3ball]

CAREER Per-100 Possessions in the Playoffs:

Lebron: 36.3 PPG, 8.4 APG, 4.5 TO, 116 ORtg
Jordan: 43.3 PPG, 7.4 APG, 4.0 TO, 118 ORtg


Jordan with 20% more scoring per 100 possessions in playoffs with equal passing and better efficiency..

that means Jordan > Lebron





Can you do that through age 30 for Jordan (first retirement)? I don't think it's fair to compare a 33-35 year old man to a 30 year old.


THRU AGE 30 Per-100 Possessions in Playoffs:

Lebron: 36.3 PPG, 8.4 APG, 4.5 TO, 116 ORtg
Jordan: 43.9 PPG, 8.4 APG, 4.2 TO, 119 ORtg


Jordan with 20% more scoring, SUPERIOR PASSING, better efficiency.. :eek:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1985-1993-sum:playoffs_per_poss
.

[La Frescobaldi]

:lol
this. lebron needs to be removed from the league and all MVP awards he has won should be taken from him and given to any player who is liked by La Frescobaldi.
:lol
yeah!! now you are getting it!!

go Korver go!! go Manu!! oh wait, another floppist.

go Pek!!

[DatAsh]

Is it just individual scoring or total team scoring contribution/accountability (points + assists)?

Because Lebron has maybe the highest offensive accountability in NBA history....

An assist means 2-3 points on the teams boxscore and it is points you helped contribute... remember?

Jordan averaged 30.1 ppg with 5 apg - thats 40.1 to 45.1 PPG for his team.
Lebron averaged 27.4 ppg with 7 ppg - thats 41.4 to 48.4 PPG for his team.

So even though MJ averaged more PPG, Lebron actually contributed more points for his team....

...and that was only higher in playoffs...

An assist isn't worth 2-3 points, as that would imply the assisted contributes nothing to the basket. I'm not really sure what an assist is actually worth; a bit of googling led me to answers between .16 and .66, as it seems asst% and shooting% aren't that strongly correlated. Someone like fpliii probably knows better.

Just going with the high estimate - and your numbers:
Jordan - 30.1 + (.66)*5.3 = 33.60
Lebron - 27.4 + (.66)*6.9 = 31.95

Another thing to consider is that Lebron is just 30. His career numbers will most likely fall a bit by the time he declines and eventually retires. Jordan's numbers are already accounting for that decline.

Also, I haven't checked, but I'm sure counting an assist as 2 to 3 times as valuable as points would work very well for guys like Stockton, Robertson, and Magic.

[3ball]

An assist isn't worth 2-3 points, as that would imply the assisted contributes nothing to the basket. I'm not really sure what an assist is actually worth; a bit of googling led me to answers between .16 and .66, as it seems asst% and shooting% aren't that strongly correlated. Someone like fpliii probably knows better.

Just going with the high estimate - and your numbers:
Jordan - 30.1 + (.66)*5.3 = 33.60
Lebron - 27.4 + (.66)*6.9 = 31.95

Another thing to consider is that Lebron is just 30. His career numbers will most likely fall a bit by the time he declines and eventually retires. Jordan's numbers are already accounting for that decline.

Also, I haven't checked, but I'm sure counting an assist as 2 to 3 times as valuable as points would work very well for guys like Stockton, Robertson, and Magic.


Per-100 Possessions in Playoffs - CAREER:

Lebron: 36.3 PPG, 8.4 APG, 4.5 TO, 116 ORtg
Jordan: 43.3 PPG, 7.4 APG, 4.0 TO, 118 ORtg


Per-100 Possessions in Playoffs - THRU AGE 30:

Lebron: 36.3 PPG, 8.4 APG, 4.5 TO, 116 ORtg
Jordan: 43.9 PPG, 8.4 APG, 4.2 TO, 119 ORtg


Jordan with 20% more scoring, SUPERIOR PASSING, better efficiency..


Finals: Lebron 24 PPG on 43% FG... Jordan 34 PPG on 48% FG.

[Magic 32]

Prior agreement to let Wade be 1st option so he could have one last chance at another FMVP.

James held back to let Wade try to lead WADE's team to another title.

Wade failed.

http://s8.postimg.org/fnzzjcpvp/sdgfdfg.png

Series over.