I think The Sopranos has become underrated

[SuperPippen]

The Sopranos was the catalyst for the current TV renaissance, and most people recognize it as such. Without it's impact and success, there would not have been a Breaking Bad or The Wire. But lately I feel that too much critical attention has been paid to appraising or re-appraising those two shows, while The Sopranos has mostly been seen as a progenitor of the aforementioned, most notable for being driven by James Gandolfini's industry-changing performance.

While I'm not about to declare that I think it's the GOAT show, I believe that - in comparison to The Wire or Breaking Bad at least - it is the show that holds up the best upon re-viewing. I daresay that I think it only improves.

Breaking Bad the most riveting television show I ever watched, but it's dependence upon those singular, electrifying set-piece moments means that it suffers the most on subsequent viewings.

The Wire possessed what is probably the broadest and most ambitious narrative scope in dramatic history, and the fact that it presented such a narrative in a manner that was realistic, digestible, and entertaining, is one of the finest artistic achievements of this, or any century. But at the same time, it lacked the depth that was one of The Sopranos strongest points. The characters on the show were certainly not two-dimensional, but I would argue that the message was.


But The Sopranos is arguably superior to both of these shows, due to it's subtlety in presentation, as well as it's thematic depth and ambiguity. No clear cut message derived from The Soprano, which cannot be said for the others. It's a character study similar to Breaking Bad, but with far more depth and nuance. I can't count the number of times I've watched scenes from the Sopranos and interpreted them completely differently than I did when I had previously watched them.

And I know I've already brought this up, but Gandolfini's performance is, IMO, the GOAT acting performance in dramatic history. I really can't think of anything else that compares. He absolutely nails every facet of the character. His is a performance rich with subtext. The observation of his mannerisms and facial expressions can completely change the meaning of any scene he's in.



Anway, apologies for the rambling, but I'm curious to see if ISH agrees or disagrees.

[Andrei89]

Greatest TV Show in the history of TV shows and it isn't even close.

Watched it 4 times already like a mad man

[JohnnySic]

The Sopranos was great the first time around but I dont think it stands up as well on multiple viewings.

Part of the show's appeal was waiting to see who got wacked or pulverized each episode. Also, pointing and laughing at the cultural quirks of NY/NJ Italian Americans (no one wants to admit it, but America has an unending fascination with the subculture of that group of people). These factors aren't as entertaining the second time around.

[Suguru101]

The Sopranos was great the first time around but I dont think it stands up as well on multiple viewings.

Part of the show's appeal was waiting to see who got wacked or pulverized each episode. Also, pointing and laughing at the cultural quirks of NY/NJ Italian Americans (no one wants to admit it, but America has an unending fascination with the subculture of that group of people). These factors aren't as entertaining the second time around.

Not at all. At least for me, that wasn't what made it great/appealing.

[JohnnySic]

Not at all. At least for me, that wasn't what made it great/appealing.
Maybe not for you but people used to complain when no one got killed. "That episode sucked, nothing happened!" :oldlol:

[RoseCity07]

Got bored by the end of the second season. The dialogue just wasn't interesting to me. Acting was good. It just became about who are they going to kill of next.

I guess I can see why some people like it. I just needed a more interesting plot. The show never really went anywhere.

[DeuceWallaces]

The Sopranos was the catalyst for the current TV renaissance, and most people recognize it as such.

Only took you one sentence to contradict your thread.

[SuperPippen]

Only took you one sentence to contradict your thread.

Not really. But I wouldn't expect any sort of constructive or insightful commentary from you.

[DeuceWallaces]

Not really. But I wouldn't expect any sort of constructive or insightful commentary from you.

You said it's underrated. Then the first sentence of your post says it's widely recognized as the catalyst for modern cable TV renaissance.

You completely undermine your thesis with your first statement.

[T_L_P]

In terms of raw production value, it's easily the best show (in my opinion). Cinematography, writing were both top-natch. The acting and musical choices were straight-up revolutionary. I think Ren

[christian1923]

You said it's underrated. Then the first sentence of your post says it's widely recognized as the catalyst for modern cable TV renaissance.

You completely undermine your thesis with your first statement.
:roll:

[1987_Lakers]

It's a revolutionary show, Tony's sessions with Dr. Melfi got us inside the main characters head like no other show has ever done.

The scene that always sticks in my head is from season 5, Tony must make a choice to give up his cousin Tony B to New York and have him killed or not giving New York anything and risk a war. We find out during that season that Tony S feels guilty about Tony B going to prison like 20 years ago, Tony S was suppose to be with Tony B the night he got arrested, but he got a panic attack and didn't make it. Which explains why Tony S didn't want to give up his cousin to New York.

Later, Tony makes a visit to Paulie's house, he sees a portrait of himself with military gear with a horse hanging up, he gets pissed off and takes the portrait with him to throw it in the dump. As he is throwing the portrait in the dump he takes a look at it one more time, he sees himself in the portrait and finally realizes that he needs to be a leader to his men and do the right thing and kill his cousin to avoid a war. It was a pretty powerful scene with no words spoken.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8Tj8F3aJgs

[DonDadda59]

The Sopranos was great the first time around but I dont think it stands up as well on multiple viewings.


You're literally the first person Iv'e ever heard say this. Anywhere.

For me, it's that ultra rare show that gets better with multiple viewings because it wasn't built around a gimmick but rather the best writing TV has seen. You always catch something new with every viewing because it's so dense and nuanced.


Maybe not for you but people used to complain when no one got killed. "That episode sucked, nothing happened!":oldlol:

The vast majority of people are f*cking idiots, so that's not surprising.


The show was just so grim and hopeless at times.

'Remember the little moments... the times that were good' :D

But yeah, having built the show around Camus' philosophy of the absurd will do that to a show. Its' much like Rust Cohle's pessimism being the driving force of True Detective (minus the cheap cop out happy ending bullshit).

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Greatest show of ALL TIME, in my opinion.

I re-watch scenes/clips on Youtube all the time ...

RIP James Gandolfini and Tony Lip (Carmine Lupertazzi)

[LJJ]

It's a great show, I recognize it broke a lot of new ground for TV shows in general. But I said before on this site, especially the writing and the depth of the show are a little overstated. You have a serious rape scene and the very next scene you have a slap stick clown like Paulie Walnuts causing a ruckus. The Sopranos had elements of unevenness like that often, it's bad writing and it is not deliberate. It's the result of multiple writers working on a show who are not in tune. Obviously since The Sopranos was such a ground breaking show, imperfections like that are to be expected. It's still a top tier TV show, but some people trynna act like there were no flaws.

[DonDadda59]

It's a great show, I recognize it broke a lot of new ground for TV shows in general. But I said before on this site, especially the writing and the depth of the show are a little overstated. You have a serious rape scene and the very next scene you have a slap stick clown like Paulie Walnuts causing a ruckus. The Sopranos had elements of unevenness like that often, it's bad writing and it is not deliberate. It's the result of multiple writers working on a show who are not in tune. Obviously since The Sopranos was such a ground breaking show, imperfections like that are to be expected. It's still a top tier TV show, but some people trynna act like there were no flaws.

That's part of what separated it from it's copycats who've all missed the mark or shows that came before. It was all based on the idea of the absurd. When you read more into that (The Stranger, Myth of Sisyphus) then you begin to understand what the writers were going for. There's a ton of great dark humor there. Shows that take themselves too seriously are cringe-worthy sometimes. People laugh at funerals. It's OK to have a personality.

And for the record, about 2 years ago the Writers Guild named the Sopranos the #1 best written show of all time... by a landslide. But what would they know? They only write TV, film for a living :oldlol:

[LJJ]

That's part of what separated it from it's copycats who've all missed the mark or shows that came before. It was all based on the idea of the absurd. When you read more into that (The Stranger, Myth of Sisyphus) then you begin to understand what the writers were going for. There's a ton of great dark humor there. Shows that take themselves too seriously are cringe-worthy sometimes. People laugh at funerals. It's OK to have a personality.

And for the record, about 2 years ago the Writers Guild named the Sopranos the #1 best written show of all time... by a landslide. But what would they know? They only write TV, film for a living :oldlol:

Did I say the show was badly written? No. It's very good overall, but some parts of the writing are quite bad. And I don't think at all it's what they were going for.

Yes, the Sopranos was really, really popular. It's going to be on the top of many different critic's lists. Who cares, I'm not saying it's trash, I said right in the post you quoted it's a top tier show.

[DonDadda59]

Did I say the show was badly written? No. It's very good overall, but some parts of the writing are quite bad. And I don't think at all it's what they were going for.

Yes, the Sopranos was really, really popular. It's going to be on the top of many different critic's lists. Who cares, I'm not saying it's trash, I said right in the post you quoted it's a top tier show.

Because you probably didn't get what they were going for. Went right over your head. No offense.

Only example of bad writing I could think of is 'Christopher'. Terrible episode that didn't feel like it was even part of the series. I think Michael Imperioli either fully or partially wrote that one, but he also wrote 'All Happy Families' or another 5th season episode so I'll chalk it up to a bad day at the typewriter.

But he point still stands- people who've studied the art of writing extensively and do it for a living have it as the pinnacle of TV writing. But again, probably just charlatans.

[KingBeasley08]

Best show ever altho I have yet to see The Wire

[LJJ]

Because you probably didn't get what they were going for. Went right over your head. No offense.

Only example of bad writing I could think of is 'Christopher'. Terrible episode that didn't feel like it was even part of the series. I think Michael Imperioli either fully or partially wrote that one, but he also wrote 'All Happy Families' or another 5th season episode so I'll chalk it up to a bad day at the typewriter.

But he point still stands- people who've studied the art of writing extensively and do it for a living have it as the pinnacle of TV writing. But again, probably just charlatans.

:roll: Yeah right over my head. The Sopranos is a popular show because it aims at the lowest common denominator. It's as obvious a show as they come. Writing that's too high brow is never commercially appealing, the Sopranos is one of the most popular TV shows of all time. You think waaaay too much of yourself there buddy, fancying yourself an intellectual for adoring the "depth" of the Sopranos.

[DonDadda59]

:roll: Yeah right over my head. The Sopranos is a popular show because it aims at the lowest common denominator. It's as obvious a show as they come. Writing that's too high brow is never commercially appealing, the Sopranos is one of the most popular TV shows of all time. You think waaaay too much of yourself there buddy, fancying yourself an intellectual for adoring the "depth" of the Sopranos.

Just further proving my point you had no clue what you were watching :lol

http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--RvgNz5XF--/c_fit,fl_progressive,q_80,w_320/japbcvpavbzau9dbuaxf.jpg

[LJJ]

Just further proving my point you had no clue what you were watching :lol

http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--RvgNz5XF--/c_fit,fl_progressive,q_80,w_320/japbcvpavbzau9dbuaxf.jpg

"I agree with the writers guild, it means I am S-M-R-T"

"You didn't like something as much as I did, it means you are dumb"

Great arguments guy

http://i.imgur.com/vDajvzQ.gif

[DonDadda59]

"I agree with the writers guild, it means I am S-M-R-T"

"You didn't like something as much as I did, it means you are dumb"

Great arguments guy

http://i.imgur.com/vDajvzQ.gif

Honestly, I'm surprised you can form somewhat coherent sentences. Baby steps I suppose. Keep it up. :cheers:

[ArbitraryWater]

Did I say the show was badly written? No. It's very good overall, but some parts of the writing are quite bad. And I don't think at all it's what they were going for.

Yes, the Sopranos was really, really popular. It's going to be on the top of many different critic's lists. Who cares, I'm not saying it's trash, I said right in the post you quoted it's a top tier show.

Bro not hating, but you should watch shit like Navy CIS maybe, the whole thing went right over your head.. missed the whole thing.

[Nastradamus]

The Sopranos was the catalyst for the current TV renaissance, and most people recognize it as such. Without it's impact and success, there would not have been a Breaking Bad or The Wire. But lately I feel that too much critical attention has been paid to appraising or re-appraising those two shows, while The Sopranos has mostly been seen as a progenitor of the aforementioned, most notable for being driven by James Gandolfini's industry-changing performance.

While I'm not about to declare that I think it's the GOAT show, I believe that - in comparison to The Wire or Breaking Bad at least - it is the show that holds up the best upon re-viewing. I daresay that I think it only improves.

Breaking Bad the most riveting television show I ever watched, but it's dependence upon those singular, electrifying set-piece moments means that it suffers the most on subsequent viewings.

The Wire possessed what is probably the broadest and most ambitious narrative scope in dramatic history, and the fact that it presented such a narrative in a manner that was realistic, digestible, and entertaining, is one of the finest artistic achievements of this, or any century. But at the same time, it lacked the depth that was one of The Sopranos strongest points. The characters on the show were certainly not two-dimensional, but I would argue that the message was.


But The Sopranos is arguably superior to both of these shows, due to it's subtlety in presentation, as well as it's thematic depth and ambiguity. No clear cut message derived from The Soprano, which cannot be said for the others. It's a character study similar to Breaking Bad, but with far more depth and nuance. I can't count the number of times I've watched scenes from the Sopranos and interpreted them completely differently than I did when I had previously watched them.

And I know I've already brought this up, but Gandolfini's performance is, IMO, the GOAT acting performance in dramatic history. I really can't think of anything else that compares. He absolutely nails every facet of the character. His is a performance rich with subtext. The observation of his mannerisms and facial expressions can completely change the meaning of any scene he's in.



Anway, apologies for the rambling, but I'm curious to see if ISH agrees or disagrees.

I think the 2 shows you mention here are 3 of the best at holding up to repeat viewings. To me, The Wire is #1 in this regard, but its probably preference for the most part. I can't go more than about 15 months without rewatching The Wire in its entirety.

[DukeDelonte13]

GOAT show. Characters in the sopranos were so well written.

Janice Soprano was such an awful person and they played that so well without putting it in your face constantly.

Janice, Bobby Backala, Chris Moltisanti, Sil, AJ, etc.

all awesome and well done.

I never watched the wire but i have seen breaking bad in its entirety and Sopranos puts BB to shame. Sopranos is better in literally every aspect.

[Thorpesaurous]

Generally speaking, I agree with the premise. Although we're really splitting hairs at this point. Anyone who cares about this sort of stuff knows what the truly great shows are.

I do think Breaking Bad has some issues long term. As was said, the show has some incredibly written and executed set pieces, but in the end the show really only has a half dozen characters of consequence, and even that's pushing it, as the villains are little more than video game bosses.

I was late to The Wire. I watched it over a month many years ago on DVD, and was completely blown away. It sprawls in a way that nothing else has ever really done. And I know I'm in a huge minority, but I loved season two on the docks. And it's a testimony to the quality of that show that they could completely backburner their main characters, Avon and McNulty, for an entire season.
I'm not as fond of the last couple seasons as most, which is rare for that second to last. Because as great as the upper level politics and the Hamsterdam stuff was, I wasn't crazy about the kids.

If you put a gun to my head I'd probably put The Sopranos at the top all time. But I may say The Wire 3 outta 12 times, and there's been moments where I'da said Mad Men, which is extremely subtle, but maybe the funniest of the stuff at this level.
I do think there's something to visual presentation of The Sopranos that may stretch it beyond some of the others, although The Wire is an exceptionally well done show, it lacks some of the darker shadowy showy cinematic bits The Sopranos has. And it's sprawlingness kept anyone from reaching Tony/Carmella levels of character insight. I once read someone who said Goodfellas woulda been The Godfather had Ray Liotta become Al Pacino. It's not something I agree with, but there's probably something to it, and the fact that McNulty and Bunk and Avon never become Tony, probably seperates the two shows. I'd say Stringer came the closest in terms of depth of character, but obviously didn't get the chance to go much further.

The Sopranos is filled with flaws. Season one is so self contained, it betrays the scope of the rest of the show upon rewatching. There's a little too much bottle stuff, like the football episode, that just don't ring true after consuming everything. It got hurt in season two when Nancy Marchant passed and a lot of stuff had to be altered on the fly, although one could argue it worked out better because it expanded the Uncle Joon role. And the later seasons have some weird tangents, like the Johnny Cakes thing, which weren't even weak as much as felt disjointed.
I do feel it works better upon rewatch than most anything else. I hated some of those late tangents at the time too. But after it was all said and done, and watching multiple times, once I had gotten over being disappointed in not getting the resolutions I wanted week to week, some of that stuff was incredibly strong. Much stronger than memory served when I wanted to know what happened to the Russians, or whatever other thing was hanging. And those tangents were by all accounts created because some of the actors had gotten to the point that their pay dictated other characters were pushed to the front to limit expense on some of the contracts, and miraculously it worked for the most part. Probably in large part due to the directing and writing, as most of those actors hadn't done much prior or since.

The dream stuff, the cinematography, the music, the depth of characters, the sense of humor, the heartfelt family stuff, the dark edge, and the scope of the world they built, are all top notch stuff. Almost none of that has been done as well by anyone, and put all together even the spots someone may be a touch better, they usually fall short in one of the other areas.

[Droid101]

This thread.
http://www.quickmeme.com/img/3c/3c76e21b39e09b8992e9b92f7f387501e99cd90b8ea709357c 819942808377d4.jpg

[Lebron23]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBcbc8eWz6U best ending

[SouBeachTalents]

Lol, it really isn’t at all. I’ve yet to see a single ranking that has The Sopranos outside the top 3 shows of all time

[Lebron23]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QrainCFg9BU

Lady Gaga in the Soprano when she was only 15

[Lebron23]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJryNRcgv4o

Best ending ever. I think Tony was whacked just like Teddy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BE_DErmhdYs

Tony killing Christopher was the saddest episode in my eye.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIXhBkcobm0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-x8vDagEZc

[highwhey]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJryNRcgv4o

Best ending ever. I think Tony was whacked just like Teddy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BE_DErmhdYs

Tony killing Christopher was the saddest episode in my eye.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIXhBkcobm0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-x8vDagEZc

tony crossed the line

[BurningHammer]

tony crossed the line
Tony spent 6 seasons dealing with Chris' incompetence. Chris crossed Tony's line so many damn times and the baby seat is the last straw.

Tony was a complete psychopath at that point but it probably was the right choice.

[Street Hunger]

At the very least I want to see the final episode again