Shaq only averaged 11 rebounds and he was a 7-1 350lb "freak athlete"

[CavaliersFTW]

...I'm not calling into question his physical superiority - that was definitely there. Which is exactly why I'm baffled why he wasn't hungrier for those rebounds!? Guys he was up against half his size were beating him in the paint to those rebounds. No rebound titles his entire professional career. What was his deal?

[lilteapot]

All his effort went into dunking on people and the offensive end instead of playing defense and grabbing rebounds

[Asukal]

...I'm not calling into question his physical superiority - that was definitely there. Which is exactly why I'm baffled why he wasn't hungrier for those rebounds!? Guys he was up against half his size were beating him in the paint to those rebounds. No rebound titles his entire professional career. What was his deal?

He didn't play in a weak era. :rolleyes:

[navy]

Only 11. What a loser.

[Eric Cartman]

Damage control for Wilt getting destroyed in other threads :lol

[CavaliersFTW]

Only 11. What a loser.
He's the 2nd most physically imposing big man in the history of the game. His rebounds don't reflect that at all.

[Milbuck]

All his effort went into dunking on people and the offensive end instead of playing defense and grabbing rebounds
Even with that, the dude at his peak finished 2nd in DPOY voting and averaged 3 blocks and just under 14 rebounds a game. 2000 Shaq truly was a freak.

[Andrew Wiggins]

still better than wilt could ever dream of and in the golden era of centers no less

[LongLiveTheKing]

Because he didn't play in the 60's

[G-train]

To be fair, that's his career average.
In his prime, he averaged 11-14 rpg.
Also in the playoffs this increased again, in fact he averaged 15 rpg on three separate occasions in the playoffs.

[navy]

He's the 2nd most physically imposing big man in the history of the game. His rebounds don't reflect that at all.
Yeah, and Wilts Finals stats doesnt suggest he was first. :confusedshrug:

[Smoke117]

...I'm not calling into question his physical superiority - that was definitely there. Which is exactly why I'm baffled why he wasn't hungrier for those rebounds!? Guys he was up against half his size were beating him in the paint to those rebounds. No rebound titles his entire professional career. What was his deal?

He was lazy. It should come as no surprise that his career high in rebounds and blocks came during his rookie season. After that he really only cared about getting his points and didn't put much energy into defense and rebounding. That is the reason I don't like Shaq...what he could have been if only he was hungrier.

[ralph_i_el]

I think we've seen over the years that rebounding for big men doesn't really correlate with height.

Plus his average is dragged down by all his lazy, fat years.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&type=totals&per_minute_base=36&per_poss_base=100&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=&year_max=&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&shoot_hand=&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&birth_state=&college_id=&is_active=&debut_yr_nba_start=&debut_yr_nba_end=&debut_yr_aba_start=&debut_yr_aba_end=&is_hof=&is_as=&as_comp=gt&as_val=&award=&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&qual=&c1stat=mp_per_g&c1comp=gt&c1val=20&c2stat=g&c2comp=gt&c2val=40&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=orb_pct

This is a list of all the seasons in the league where a player played 40 or more games and averaged 20 or more minutes. It's sorted by total rebounding %

The tallest two guys in the top 20 are Deandre Jordan and Marcus Camby. Then you have like 10 seasons of Rodman. Ben Wallace, Reggie Evans, Keven Love, Jayson Williams, Danny Fortson.....all dudes 6'9" or below.....all in the top 20 seasons of total rebounding %

So Shaq being 7"1' doesn't mean anything in terms of rebounding :confusedshrug: Historically the tallest big men don't get the most rebounds.

Obviously this list doesn't include players from the prehistoric ages of the NBA, because nobody cared enough to record possession stats or even save all the game footage:roll:

[SouBeachTalents]

Wilt only averaged 19 ppg in the Finals and he was a 7'1 275 lb "freak athlete"

[bigt]

His last couple of years in the league really didn't help his career averages that's for sure

[T_L_P]

Shaq's TRB% from 93-05: 18.2%

RPG in that period: 12.0

Wilt's TRB% from 71-73 (only years it is available): 19.4%

RPG in that period: 18.7

1.2% TRB difference, yet he was getting almost 7 more Rebounds per game.

Old era guys and their love for raw stats.

[CavaliersFTW]

Shaq's TRB% from 93-05: 18.2%

RPG in that period: 12.0

Wilt's TRB% from 71-73 (only years it is available): 19.4%

RPG in that period: 18.7

1.2% TRB difference, yet he was getting almost 7 more Rebounds per game.

Old era guys and their love for raw stats.
Wilt played 47 minutes a game.. And was 36 years old

The minutes diff alone is good for several more rebounds a game than PEAK Shaq. That's embarrassing. Compare a 36 year old shaq to 36 year old wilt and holy **** shaq would get slaughtered on the boards

[necya]

when you don't have a good PF, your numbers tend to go up, 14 for his rookie year, 10-11 when Horace Grant came in Orlando. As well as Ewing when he got Oakley, DRob went from 10 to 12 after Rodman left...
but as someone mentioned, he was a bit lazy and lacked a lot of funds in defense position / rotation / attitude. So he was looking as a freak in 2000 because he progressed a bit with a better staff, but mostly because there were no superstars anymore in their prime (MJ, Ewing, Olajuwon, Malone, Barkley, DRob) his 3 titles have been terribly overlooked on here
People forgot that Olajuwon and DRob used to bring the same impact on the offensive hand while having an even greater impact on the defensive hand. And they could shot the FT..
But gotta love Shaq, unreal player
oh, btw, OP comments are :facepalm

[CavaliersFTW]

when you don't have a good PF, your numbers tend to go up, 14 for his rookie year, 10-11 when Horace Grant came in Orlando. As well as Ewing when he got Oakley, DRob went from 10 to 12 after Rodman left...
but as someone mentioned, he was a bit lazy and lacked a lot of funds in defense position / rotation / attitude. So he was looking as a freak in 2000 because he progressed a bit with a better staff, but mostly because there were no superstars anymore in their prime (MJ, Ewing, Olajuwon, Malone, Barkley, DRob) his 3 titles have been terribly overlooked on here
People forgot that Olajuwon and DRob used to bring the same impact on the offensive hand while having an even greater impact on the defensive hand. And they could shot the FT..
But gotta love Shaq, unreal player
oh, btw, OP comments are :facepalm
Wilt had Nate Thurmond, Luke Jackson, and Bill Bridges as power forwards... ELITE rebounders.

He still lead the league in rebounding every single one of those seasons, by healthy margin.

[SpecialQue]

Shaq being exposed as a worthless piece of shit. Again.

Pretty sad that his greatest legacy is doing recycled Hightower gags in Grown Ups 2.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Shaq's TRB% from 93-05: 18.2%

RPG in that period: 12.0

Wilt's TRB% from 71-73 (only years it is available): 19.4%

RPG in that period: 18.7

1.2% TRB difference, yet he was getting almost 7 more Rebounds per game.

Old era guys and their love for raw stats.

Pretty much.

Not saying Wilt wouldn't out-rebound Shaq, but the raw stats definitely do us a disservice here. Possessions/pace (more opportunity to rebound) is why their career rebounding numbers are so lopsided.


Shaq being exposed as a worthless piece of shit. Again.

Pretty sad that his greatest legacy is doing recycled Hightower gags in Grown Ups 2.

You're being ironic right?

[tgan3]

Because he doesn't need to thats why. So what if you grab 20-30 rebounds and your team losses? Stat isn't everything.

[SpecialQue]

You're being ironic right?

I kinda figured it'd be obvious by now. :oldlol:

[CavaliersFTW]

Every big man that followed in the footsteps of Mikan, Russell, and Wilt should have taken notes to do the common denominators all 3 of those original GOAT tier bigs did.

Lead the league in rebounding. It makes a dominating statement. Sweep up those boards.

I don't buy the excuse of "well not all the rebounders all-time are/should be big based on who won rebound titles"

No, if you're big, and you play the center position and are stationed/can get deep, you've got the best tools to grab those boards. If you don't go and get them that's on you for letting some smaller guy out jump, out hustle and/or out muscle you.

I think it started with Kareem. Kareem didn't go after the boards like Wilt and Russell did. Ever since then it seems dominating big men have been given free passes for not leading the league in a statistical category they very well should given their tools and positioning on the floor.

[T_L_P]

when you don't have a good PF, your numbers tend to go up, 14 for his rookie year, 10-11 when Horace Grant came in Orlando. As well as Ewing when he got Oakley, DRob went from 10 to 12 after Rodman left...
but as someone mentioned, he was a bit lazy and lacked a lot of funds in defense position / rotation / attitude. So he was looking as a freak in 2000 because he progressed a bit with a better staff, but mostly because there were no superstars anymore in their prime (MJ, Ewing, Olajuwon, Malone, Barkley, DRob) his 3 titles have been terribly overlooked on here
People forgot that Olajuwon and DRob used to bring the same impact on the offensive hand while having an even greater impact on the defensive hand. And they could shot the FT..
But gotta love Shaq, unreal player
oh, btw, OP comments are :facepalm

I mean, there was prime Duncan, who had the second best career of any player you listed, and at worst a top 3 impact (behind MJ and Hakeem, I personally have Tim > Hakeem). I get that he didn't match-up with him head-on, but a peak Duncan and Robinson focusing on defense combo is harder to go at than, say, Ewing and Oakley, or Hakeem and Thorpe. :confusedshrug:

I disagree that Robinson/Hakeem were better offensive players. Robinson's lack of offense was generally what lead the Spurs' post-season collapses, because open-court opportunities dwindled (which is where he excelled).

I do agree that they were both much better defensive players though.

[ralph_i_el]

Every big man that followed in the footsteps of Mikan, Russell, and Wilt should have taken notes to do the common denominators all 3 of those original GOAT tier bigs did.


play in a shitty era?

[Droid101]

Every big man that followed in the footsteps of Mikan, Russell, and Wilt should have taken notes to do the common denominators all 3 of those original GOAT tier bigs did.

Lead the league in rebounding. It makes a dominating statement. Sweep up those boards.

I don't buy the excuse of "well not all the rebounders all-time are/should be big based on who won rebound titles"

No, if you're big, and you play the center position and are stationed/can get deep, you've got the best tools to grab those boards. If you don't go and get them that's on you for letting some smaller guy out jump, out hustle and/or out muscle you.

I think it started with Kareem. Kareem didn't go after the boards like Wilt and Russell did. Ever since then it seems dominating big men have been given free passes for not leading the league in a statistical category they very well should given their tools and positioning on the floor.
Why put in effort when you can get 11 per game without trying?

[ralph_i_el]

I don't buy the excuse of "well not all the rebounders all-time are/should be big based on who won rebound titles"

No, if you're big, and you play the center position and are stationed/can get deep, you've got the best tools to grab those boards. If you don't go and get them that's on you for letting some smaller guy out jump, out hustle and/or out muscle you.


for the last 40 years, this hasn't been the case.

but what is 40 years of statistics, when you can just say "Nope, the tallest guy should get all the rebounds"?:facepalm

How do you explain most of the best rebounders of the past 40 years being 6'10" or shorter? Shorter, stouter big men have a lower center of gravity for boxing out, and are often able to move quicker to corral boards.

[Eric Cartman]

play in a shitty era?

:lol

[CavaliersFTW]

for the last 40 years, this hasn't been the case.

but what is 40 years of statistics, when you can just say "Nope, the tallest guy should get all the rebounds"?:facepalm

How do you explain most of the best rebounders of the past 40 years being 6'10" or shorter?
How do you explain Moses Malone, Wilt Chamberlain, Bill Russell, and George Mikan?

The big men have the tools. The best tools for the job I might add. They get the deepest, and have the highest reach radius and shortest distances to leap. All they need is the hunger and willingness to take the abuse.

[navy]

play in a shitty era?
:roll:

Mikan is the GOAT. 50s werent weak at all.

[ralph_i_el]

How do you explain Moses Malone, Wilt Chamberlain, Bill Russell, and George Mikan?

The big men have the tools. The best tools for the job I might add. They get the deepest, and have the highest reach radius and shortest distances to leap. All they need is the hunger and willingness to take the abuse.

Moses: 6'10"

Wilt, Russell, Mikan: Played in shit eras, where the perimeter players were leaking out to run the break way more often, so big men got tons of rebounds, and the pace was excessively high. I refuse to take raw rebound numbers from that era seriously.

[Batzman]

Wilt only averaged 19 ppg in the Finals and he was a 7'1 275 lb "freak athlete"
dead.

[CavaliersFTW]

So in conclusion Shaq has excuses in place of rebounding titles.

Got it.

[navy]

So in conclusion Shaq has excuses in place of rebounding titles.

Got it.
Just like Wilt has excuses in place of actual titles.

Got it.

[CavaliersFTW]

Just like Wilt has excuses in place of actual titles.

Got it.
Shaq has just as many failed seasons to winning a title as Wilt.

But no rebounding titles.

[LAZERUSS]

Shaq's TRB% from 93-05: 18.2%

RPG in that period: 12.0

Wilt's TRB% from 71-73 (only years it is available): 19.4%

RPG in that period: 18.7

1.2% TRB difference, yet he was getting almost 7 more Rebounds per game.

Old era guys and their love for raw stats.

A mid-60's Wilt had KNOWN TRB%'s of 24+. Not only that, he was routinely DESTROYING the likes of Russell, Thurmond, Reed, and anyone else who stepped on the floor against him.

And he was never outrebounded by an opposing center in his 29 playoff series. Furthermore, he was only outrebounded in ONE of those 29 series, and that by a 21 rpg to 20 rpg margin. By Jerry Lucas, who was the Kevin Love of his era. Furthemore, when Lucas was Wilt's opposing center in the '72 Finals...guess what...a 35 year old Wilt, playing 47 mpg...outrebounded the 31 year old Lucas, who played 46 mpg...by a 23.3 to 9.8 rpg margin.

And BTW, a Chamberlain in his LAST post-season, averaged 22.5 rpg in his 17 playoff games, in a post-season NBA that averaged 50.6 rpg. To give you an idea of how dominant that was...THIS year's NBA is averaging 43.4 rpg. Put THAT 36 year old Wilt into THIS year's NBA, and he would pulling down 19.3 rpg!

As for the idiot who claimed that Wilt "only" averaged 19 rpg in his Finals...as always..complete bullshit.

Here were Wilt's SIX Finals:

27.8 rpg
28.5 rpg
25.0 rpg
24.1 rpg
23.2 rpg
18.6 rpg (in a post-season in which he averaged 22.5 rpg.)

how about 24.5 rpg!

And he outrebounded the likes of Russell, Thurmond, Russell, Reed, Lucas, and Reed in those six Finals, and by an average margin of about 8 rpg.

[navy]

Shaq has just as many failed seasons to winning a title as Wilt.

But no rebounding titles.
Boiled Down.

4 > 2

[BigMacAttack]

I think we've seen over the years that rebounding for big men doesn't really correlate with height.

Plus his average is dragged down by all his lazy, fat years.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&type=totals&per_minute_base=36&per_poss_base=100&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=&year_max=&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&shoot_hand=&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&birth_state=&college_id=&is_active=&debut_yr_nba_start=&debut_yr_nba_end=&debut_yr_aba_start=&debut_yr_aba_end=&is_hof=&is_as=&as_comp=gt&as_val=&award=&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&qual=&c1stat=mp_per_g&c1comp=gt&c1val=20&c2stat=g&c2comp=gt&c2val=40&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=orb_pct

This is a list of all the seasons in the league where a player played 40 or more games and averaged 20 or more minutes. It's sorted by total rebounding %

The tallest two guys in the top 20 are Deandre Jordan and Marcus Camby. Then you have like 10 seasons of Rodman. Ben Wallace, Reggie Evans, Keven Love, Jayson Williams, Danny Fortson.....all dudes 6'9" or below.....all in the top 20 seasons of total rebounding %

So Shaq being 7"1' doesn't mean anything in terms of rebounding :confusedshrug: Historically the tallest big men don't get the most rebounds.

Obviously this list doesn't include players from the prehistoric ages of the NBA, because nobody cared enough to record possession stats or even save all the game footage:roll:

When talking about Shaq using just his height doesnt do him justice. The guy was a man amognst boys out there.

[DonDadda59]

Shaq was lazy as shit. Basketball was just one of his hobbies. Not sure if it ranked higher in importance for him than rapping. If he wanted to, he could've averaged what he did in the finals throughout whole seasons (in a relatively low paced era). But that would've required staying in shape, being focused for long stretches instead of just 4-7 game spurts here and there.

That was a big source of the beef between Shaq and Kobe. Bean is as focused and hard a worker as the league has seen but he had to play second fiddle to a guy who considered basketball a distraction from his movie career. :oldlol:

[andgar923]

Just like Wilt has excuses in place of actual titles.

Got it.
:roll: :roll:

[SugarHill]

Just like Wilt has excuses in place of actual titles.

Got it.
dat ether

[Eric Cartman]

Just like Wilt has excuses in place of actual titles.

Got it.

http://i.imgur.com/QSKWx.gif

[avonbarksdale]

jeez i wonder who this thread is really about

[J Shuttlesworth]

I won't lie... TS has a point. Shaq's rebounding numbers were also inflated due to Kobricks

[Prime_Shaq]

Peak Shaq had to carry the offensive load for his team and still averaged 14 rebs while playing against QUALITY centers

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Difference between a strong era and a weak era

[CavaliersFTW]

Peak Shaq had to carry the offensive load for his team and still averaged 14 rebs while playing against QUALITY centers
Such as Rik Smits, Chris Dudley?

Wilt Chamberlain grabbed 55 rebounds against Bill Russell. GTFOH with that stronger competition nonsense.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Rik Smits is a bad player now? Dude would average 30/14 in the 60s.

[TheBigVeto]

Shaq wasn't that great.

[SouBeachTalents]

Such as Rik Smits, Chris Dudley?

Wilt Chamberlain grabbed 55 rebounds against Bill Russell. GTFOH with that stronger competition nonsense.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybfSIRf6_EY

[CavaliersFTW]

Rik Smits is a bad player now?
Stiff rebounding competition he was right? :rolleyes:

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Stiff rebounding competition he was right? :rolleyes:
He wasn't great but he was a good player.

[Prime_Shaq]

Such as Rik Smits, Chris Dudley?

Wilt Chamberlain grabbed 55 rebounds against Bill Russell. GTFOH with that stronger competition nonsense.
I hope you understand the game evolves over the years. Shaq had to compete with many of the best centers of all time, Hakeem Ewing DRob Duncan

[CavaliersFTW]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybfSIRf6_EY
Proving my point.

That physical presence could not lead the league in rebounding A SINGLE TIME :facepalm

[Soundwave]

Probably a combination of two reasons

1) He let himself get fat in his later years which reduced his rebounding totals.

2.) Kinda hard to get a rebound when you dunked the ball down your opponent's throat. His style of play and his go to move (turn and dunk, alley oop, etc.) lends itself to fewer tip in/tap in rebound opportunities where you could maybe rack up 2-3 easy rebounds on a single possession.

[CavaliersFTW]

I hope you understand the game evolves over the years. Shaq had to compete with many of the best centers of all time, Hakeem Ewing DRob Duncan
And he certainly them collectively a helluva lot less times per season and over the course of his career than Wilt played equally elite all-time competition.

Shaq cut his teeth on lower tier players a lot more often than Wilt

And never lead the league a single time in rebounding.

[CavaliersFTW]

Probably a combination of two reasons

1) He let himself get fat in his later years which reduced his rebounding totals.

2.) Kinda hard to get a rebound when you dunked the ball down your opponent's throat. His style of play and his go to move (turn and dunk, alley oop, etc.) lends itself to fewer tip in/tap in rebound opportunities where you could maybe rack up 2-3 easy rebounds on a single possession.
Wilt rarely even touched the ball on offense his last 2 seasons of his career and played a role where he jogged up court on offense as the last man to cross the line. Especially his last season when offensive rebounding specialist Bill Bridges was brought aboard.

Still lead the league in rebounding both times, despite doing so almost exclusively from the defensive end.

Shaq's got nothing but excuses why he didn't lead the league in rebounding even once. With his physical presence he should have done it at least once. With his quickness he could have beat guys there, with his strength he could have outmuscled guys, and with his length and leaping ability he could have gotten to the ball quicker. The fact is he did not reach his rebounding potential, ever. He should have channeled his desire dominate into the area of rebounding not just dunking.

[Prime_Shaq]

And he certainly them collectively a helluva lot less times per season and over the course of his career than Wilt played equally elite all-time competition.

Shaq cut his teeth on lower tier players a lot more often than Wilt

And never lead the league a single time in rebounding.
Equally elite competition :oldlol:

Wilt was ahead of his time physically while Shaq physique was much more similar to his competition that would make Shaq exert for force and energy which would cause more wear and tear on his body which resulted in many injuries late in his career. Wilt had a much easier time in his day.

[CavaliersFTW]

Equally elite competition :oldlol:

Wilt was ahead of his time physically while Shaq physique was much more similar to his competition that would make Shaq exert for force and energy which would cause more wear and tear on his body which resulted in many injuries late in his career. Wilt had a much easier time in his day.
bullshit :roll:

Name 5 players of Shaq's era within 25lbs of Shaq. (In Shaq's 30 team league era) :lol


Off the top of my head:
Wayne Embry, Wes Unseld, Walt Bellamy, Bob Lanier and Tom Boerwinkle

All within 25lbs of Wilt when they played against him in 8-17 team sized league

And the great players in Wilt's time were just as good as the great players in Shaq's time... only they played against each other a helluva lot more times than in the 30 team league era.

[Prime_Shaq]

bullshit :roll:

Name 5 players of Shaq's era within 25lbs of Shaq. (In Shaq's 30 team league era) :lol


Off the top of my head:
Wayne Embry, Wes Unseld, Walt Bellamy, Bob Lanier and Tom Boerwinkle

All within 25lbs of Wilt when they played against him in 8-17 team sized league

And the great players in Wilt's time were just as good as the great players in Shaq's time... only they played against each other a helluva lot more times than in the 30 team league era.
The same 4 players I've listed before would make Shaq work on the inside much more than any Wilt's competition did. What did those gaudy rebounding numbers do for Wilt anyways? Set individual records. Peak Shaq? Produce championships.

[CavaliersFTW]

The same 4 players I've listed before would make Shaq work on the inside much more than any Wilt's competition did. What did those gaudy rebounding numbers do for Wilt anyways? Set individual records. Peak Shaq? Produce championships.
You fail to see it isn't just Wilt who proves my point in the thread. Bill Russell was a far superior rebounder to Shaq,

won 11 titles in 13 seasons. Maybe if Shaq's lackluster rebounding effort was a little more motivated he could have been in Russell and Wilt conversations on all-time lists.

Shaq failed to win a title as many seasons as Wilt. Against weaker competition. Honestly if you think '00's era centers are as good as Wilt's era centers you either don't know your history or are delusional

[Prime_Shaq]

Shaq is indeed in the conversation with Wilt and Russell in the all time list based on his peak alone. If you don't think so then you are delusional. I wouldn't knock on Shaq for his rebounding prowess based on how much pressure he already applied on the oppositions paint. I would only knock him for his lack of motivation to keep in shape or free throw practice.

[AirFederer]

Shaq is indeed in the conversation with Wilt and Russell in the all time list based on his peak alone. If you don't think so then you are delusional. I wouldn't knock on Shaq for his rebounding prowess based on how much pressure he already applied on the oppositions paint. I would only knock him for his lack of motivation to keep in shape or free throw practice.

This.

I think I know why a Wilt fan is so obsessed with individual accolades...Wilt`s lack of team sucess as the main man..

Let`s not forget this great post:


Originally Posted by swagga
i've probably seen more wilt film than 95% of the users of this site. I'm just tired of having this crap constantly coming up and flooding the front page. Just make a subforum or a 500 page wilt-thread. Even lebron vs kobe vs durant in silk vs joyner fashion is more entertaining than a single post of julizer/jlauber/cavsftw.

Wilt is a top athletic 5 talent, too bad he mentally matured really late in his career. To say he wasn't the godfather of the "check my stats" movement is asinine, his selfishness and selfcenterness are well documented, from not participating in training sessions and putting the night life above the game to clashing with coaching and zoning out in key moments of the game. His leadership was non-existent. He makes kobe look like a model teammate, as he alienated his colleagues. These are all "details" that cost teams rings. He did adapt his game to mesh with other great player but did so only at the end of his career, he had many other opportunities, so your argument is misleading.
He also chocked really hard in the playoffs were he has a well documented HUGE drop in production, which just reinforces my point of him being weak mentally.

I'm not extremely impressed by his game, his rebounding and defense would excellently translate in today's game (and in any era) but his offensive game would not. Also, adjusted to per possession his numbers are excellent but not godly. That's saying others were better or came close. Furthermore his head to head record against worthy adversaries isn't the greatest, we might even call it underwhelming compared to his apparent dominance. As I previously said he had zero leadership skills and he didn't impact that game from a mental standpoint (a staple point of true winners..). Imo he'd be easily frustrated by mentally superior players in the 80s/90s/00s.

He was perfect for his era's run-n-gun style of play but all time he is wildly overrated. Peak shaq, kareem, hakeem, duncan are superior bigs, with superior careers, which would also fare better in the 80s/90s/00s/10s while doing comparable work in the 60s/70s because of superior skills, adaptability, coachability or intelligence.

The argument of bringing him up with modern means and training is moot, too many variables. The true what if with wilt is "what if he truly cared about winning?".

Imo this is all the evidence a serious basketball fan needs to properly label wilt as a goat athletic talent but as a career loser and underachiever.Top 10 all-time athlete? sure. Top 10 all-time basketball player? no way.

god bless.

[Eric Cartman]

What happened with Shaq was when he came up there was the best crop of big men, legends all around, fighting against those guys made him tough, an absolute beast, then when the 21st century came around and he found himself facing weak ass centers, it was bbq chicken time, those boys didn't stand a chance.

[coin24]

Shaq >> wilt

[CavaliersFTW]

Shaq is indeed in the conversation with Wilt and Russell in the all time list based on his peak alone. If you don't think so then you are delusional. I wouldn't knock on Shaq for his rebounding prowess based on how much pressure he already applied on the oppositions paint. I would only knock him for his lack of motivation to keep in shape or free throw practice.
His career is over and Shaq's career proved he isn't 1/20th as dominant as Wilt and he's 1/3rd the winner Russell was.

Where's his records? Where's his rebounding titles? How many MVP's he get? How many statistical categories did he lead throughout his career?

He's neither the greatest nor the most dominant so what do we have to look at? He won 4 titles, and won a nice list of other accolades. So he's certainly an all time great. But he's below Kareem, let alone Chamberlain and Russell. He and George Mikan are jockeying for position on all-time center lists. Sorry that's just the way his resume turned out. He didn't put his finger prints all over the record books like Wilt nor win like Russ plain and simple.

And once again. Not a single rebounding title. Not one. 2nd most physically dominant player of all time, and not one rebounding title.

[Prime_Shaq]

What happened with Shaq was when he came up there was the best crop of big men, legends all around, fighting against those guys made him tough, an absolute beast, then when the 21st century came around and he found himself facing weak ass centers, it was bbq chicken time, those boys didn't stand a chance.
A necessary crucible which Shaq came out as the most devastating inside force of all time. BBQ chicken time baby :rockon:

[Prime_Shaq]

His career is over and Shaq's career proved he isn't 1/20th as dominant as Wilt and he's 1/3rd the winner Russell was.

Where's his records? Where's his rebounding titles? How many MVP's he get? How many statistical categories did he lead throughout his career?

He's neither the greatest nor the most dominant so what do we have to look at? He won 4 titles, and won a nice list of other accolades. So he's certainly an all time great. But he's below Kareem, let alone Chamberlain and Russell. He and George Mikan are jockeying for position on all-time center lists. Sorry that's just the way his resume turned out. He didn't put his finger prints all over the record books like Wilt nor win like Russ plain and simple.

And once again. Not a single rebounding title. Not one. 2nd most physically dominant player of all time, and not one rebounding title.
Shaq not 1/20 as dominant as Wilt? Okay dude. I see what's going on here.

[RRR3]

http://s1.totalprosports.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/wilt-chamberlain.jpg


"More physically dominating than Shaq" :yaohappy:

[CavaliersFTW]

http://s1.totalprosports.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/wilt-chamberlain.jpg


"More physically dominating than Shaq" :yaohappy:
Yep http://youtu.be/_B7jVTJ_CIE?t=1m

[CavaliersFTW]

Shaq not 1/20 as dominant as Wilt? Okay dude. I see what's going on here.
How many rebounding titles has he got? How many records? How many scoring titles? How many accuracy titles? How many MVP's? How many NBA RECORDS?

He's a fraction of Wilt's individual dominance. A tiny tiny fraction.

The truth is what's going on here.

[Prime_Shaq]

How many rebounding titles has he got? How many records? How many scoring titles? How many accuracy titles? How many MVP's? How many NBA RECORDS?

He's a fraction of Wilt's individual dominance. A tiny tiny fraction.

The truth is what's going on here.
Yeah. I was once blind but now I see.

[Milbuck]

His career is over and Shaq's career proved he isn't 1/20th as dominant as Wilt and he's 1/3rd the winner Russell was.

Where's his records? Where's his rebounding titles? How many MVP's he get? How many statistical categories did he lead throughout his career?

He's neither the greatest nor the most dominant so what do we have to look at? He won 4 titles, and won a nice list of other accolades. So he's certainly an all time great. But he's below Kareem, let alone Chamberlain and Russell. He and George Mikan are jockeying for position on all-time center lists. Sorry that's just the way his resume turned out. He didn't put his finger prints all over the record books like Wilt nor win like Russ plain and simple.

And once again. Not a single rebounding title. Not one. 2nd most physically dominant player of all time, and not one rebounding title.
Pointing to Wilt's raw stats as a justification for him being so much more dominant than Shaq...it's just silly, and a blatant dismissal of context. Also silly to act like peak Shaq in Wilt's place in the 60s wouldn't be raping the record books in a similar fashion.

[RRR3]

Yep http://youtu.be/_B7jVTJ_CIE?t=1m
Wilt is likely higher than a Shaq alltime, but I doubt he was capable or more brute force during his playing days (body building movie days don't count). I've seen Shaq toss Mutombo around like a rag doll.

[CavaliersFTW]

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-yhlETG9pkv4/VIUK8h9hF5I/AAAAAAAAFmc/Mdo3FublhFw/s800/nba-highest-scoring-games3OnlyWilt.jpghttps://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-YdKQ-TUa1ZY/VIUK8doBNTI/AAAAAAAAFmU/9sdO5PgTCp8/s800/nba-highest-scoring-gamesminusWilt.jpg

How many times is Shaq on that list? How many times is Wilt?

1/20th... yeah... that's being extraordinarily generous to Shaq and conservative to Wilt Chamberlain.

Most dominant all time and no one is even close.

[Milbuck]

How many times is Shaq on that list? How many times is Wilt?

1/20th... yeah... that's being extraordinarily generous to Shaq and conservative to Wilt Chamberlain.

Most dominant all time and no one is even close.
You think there's zero contextual differences between Wilt's era and Shaq's? None whatsoever, and that we can just compare the raw stats as they exist?

[Eric Cartman]

A necessary crucible which Shaq came out as the most devastating inside force of all time. BBQ chicken time baby :rockon:

http://i718.photobucket.com/albums/ww187/Tweaks_photos/i21339128_87981.gif

[CavaliersFTW]

Pointing to Wilt's raw stats as a justification for him being so much more dominant than Shaq...it's just silly, and a blatant dismissal of context. Also silly to act like peak Shaq in Wilt's place in the 60s wouldn't be raping the record books in a similar fashion.
It doesn't matter how you look at this Millbuck, see the thread title.

How many rebounding TITLES does he have? Not even one. No raw number comparison necessary. Take away all of Wilt's records and he still destroys Shaq in the manner in which he was on top of multiple major league statistical categories season after season.

[CavaliersFTW]

You think there's zero contextual differences between Wilt's era and Shaq's? None whatsoever, and that we can just compare the raw stats as they exist?
What's the thread title? How many times did Shaq lead the league in rebounding? Or other statistical categories? Let's start there shall we?

He's not a fraction as dominant as Wilt. You're not going to win this debate, there's just no way you can fiddle with his resume or take things out of Wilt's to make it seem like he was anything but a tiny fraction as dominant as Wilt Chamberlain.

Just like there's no way you can suggest he's anything but a fraction the winner Bill Russell was.

It's pretty cut and dry.

[RRR3]

Who the **** cares how many rebounding titles Shaq has when he was pretty much always top 5-10 in RPG in his prime? Led the playoffs in RPG multiple times IIRC

[CavaliersFTW]

Who the **** cares how many rebounding titles Shaq has when he was pretty much always top 5-10 in RPG in his prime? Led the playoffs in RPG multiple times IIRC
Well is he not the 2nd most physically imposing center of all time? Why was he settling for top 5-10 in rebounding? Is that not falling short of his potential in a major statistical category?

[AirFederer]

So OP doesn`t adjust for pace? Agenda much?
Like Shaq wouldn`t rape the league in the 60ies :facepalm

http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/article/media_slots/photos/000/958/558/d_original.jpg?1373311256

http://img.bleacherreport.net/img/images/photos/002/390/696/3128028_crop_north.jpg?w=630&h=420&q=75

VS

http://i.cdn.turner.com/drp/nba/magic/sites/default/files/styles/main_gallery_photo__480_tall/public/shaqhs_500_042413.jpg?itok=NsDBzGV1

http://www.autographsportsbuy.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/t2188623-300.jpg

http://41.media.tumblr.com/626c7f4c4fcbaf29a8c78954362554da/tumblr_n20t70Himk1qm9rypo1_1280.jpg

http://зубрежка.рф/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/56425980.jpg

http://europebasketball.net/basketball_wallpaper/basketball-wallpaper-basketball-36-sport-michael_Jordan-vs-shaquille-o-neal.jpg

[Milbuck]

What's the thread title? How many times did Shaq lead the league in rebounding? Or other statistical categories? Let's start there shall we?

He's not a fraction as dominant as Wilt. You're not going to win this debate, there's just no way you can fiddle with his resume or take things out of Wilt's to make it seem like he was anything but a tiny fraction as dominant as Wilt Chamberlain.

Just like there's no way you can suggest he's anything but a fraction the winner Bill Russell was.

It's pretty cut and dry.
Well what then can we draw from their career playoff stats?

Shaq in the playoffs: 24.3 ppg on 56.3% FG
Wilt in the playoffs: 22.5 ppg on 52.2% FG

And that's completely ignoring pace, minutes, etc and everything else that differed in their situations. Stuff that is critical in comparing players from such different eras.

[GimmeThat]

here's another formula that could be derived in calculating stats comparing era.

consider the players at each position with the amount of other players at the other position one had to face during each year. (only starters, or bench, or players who could play multiple positions)

then you consider the numbers each player put up at a curve, instead of a linear number. i.e. the difference between a 30 PPG scorer to a 25 PPG scorer, is going to be larger than a 25 PPG scorer to a 20 PPG scorer. (the statistical argument in which nulls per 48 data)


compound that by the number of years, one player is able to consistently put up those numbers. again, someone who can do it 8 years to 7 years is again much different than someone who can do it 7 years to 6 years. in which, I believe this is an argument that players would agree, especially those who came from the deep draft classes of the 96, 03, etc.


destroy all linear arguments, factor in the curve,exponential differences.


you'll most likely end up accomplishing nothing at the end of all of its calculation.



you've been warned.



I do wonder how this may be different than simply looking at career totals.

[Marchesk]

WHOA ^

Where's fplii at? Get this shit calculated!

[Marchesk]

But as for dominance, Wilt did dominate his era in multiple categories in a way that Shaq simply did not.

Both Wilt and Shaq did play against great competition at the center position, although Shaq's competition would have been diluted somewhat by the number of teams.

Anyone who says that Wilt didn't have great big competition in the 60s is ignorant or trolling.

[deja vu]

Let's be real here. Shaq would average something like 60 ppg in the 60s. He would feast on both Wilt and Russell.

[Marchesk]

Let's be real here. Shaq would average something like 60 ppg in the 60s. He would feast on both Wilt and Russell.

As long as he didn't tire out at a higher pace, and he didn't foul out.

:coleman:

[deja vu]

As long as he didn't tire out at a higher pace, and he didn't foul out.

:coleman:
No need to play 40+ minutes a game when he would dunk over hapless competition over and over again. :roll: You're telling me that those 60s white stiffs would stop Shaq from dunking almost every time? :lol

[RoseCity07]

350 really? That's BS. You can't move like that at 350. His knees wold shatter. 300 pounds is more like it.

[Anaximandro1]

OP awoke my curiosity about Shaq ... look what we found ... hilarious


Shaq is the luckiest big man ever.



Tier 1 -> Russell/Wilt/Kareem

Tier 2 -> Duncan

Tier 3 -> Shaq/Hakeem


1) Playoffs - Games decided by 10 or more points -> Average Margin of victory was 17.9 points


http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-0-L7a83tf28/VNntFiAyxsI/AAAAAAAADxU/uNFHpn4LUis/s1600/12.jpg


2) Playoffs - Games decided by single digits -> Average Margin of victory was 4.4 points

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-qKz2jYn-YsM/VNntFkQnDMI/AAAAAAAADxQ/IMEkTjXt1wY/s1600/13.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-yImJWph-mUk/VNntGEG36NI/AAAAAAAADxg/vNwXQptuTxg/s1600/14.jpg

[julizaver]

...I'm not calling into question his physical superiority - that was definitely there. Which is exactly why I'm baffled why he wasn't hungrier for those rebounds!? Guys he was up against half his size were beating him in the paint to those rebounds. No rebound titles his entire professional career. What was his deal?

Shaq was not the best rebounder of his era, he was dominant scorer and capable defender in his prime, but he doesn't excel in both rebounding and defending. He posted his career highs in blocked shots and rebounds during his rookie season where he was a little over 300 pounds. I would just extract of resume of 31 year Shaq and how his game changed/diminish with the gain of weight:

"The second of the Lakers' problems literally is more monumental and even less-easily solved: Shaquille O'Neal's weight.
With his size and his skills, Shaq remains the monster of the midway. At the same time, his effectiveness has diminished in direct proportion to the increase of his body mass.

In his younger, lighter days, Shaq routinely would jump two or three times in pursuit of an elusive rebound. Lately, he's capable of only a couple multiple-jumps per game. Otherwise, it's one-and-done with the effort.
Shaq is so slow off the floor that younger/smaller/bouncier players regularly beat him to the top of his jump and snatch rebounds meant for him.
Whereas Shaq's rebounding range used to be three or four body-spaces in every direction, he now rebounds as though he were locked inside a telephone booth.
His shot-blocking range is also more limited because he's floor-bound and still gathering himself to jump while too many shots have already been launched in the lane.
Shaq's decreased lateral mobility severely hampers the Lakers' defensive rotations.
More of his shots are getting blocked than ever before.
His pivot spins and drop steps are now being performed in slo-mo.
Shaquille O'Neal
Shaq still gets his points, but as his weight increases, his other skills may be eroding.

Because he can't change direction, Shaq has tremendous difficulty trying to guard anybody who can face him up.
He's being tagged with more fouls because he usually arrives too late to the scene of the shot, and because he's becoming more susceptible to fakes.
Late in ballgames, he's often unable to dunk the ball in a crowd.
The fear is that Shaq is courting a career-ending injury because of all that weight."

And the link is here: http://espn.go.com/page2/s/rosen/030518.html

[Lebron23]

No need to play 40+ minutes a game when he would dunk over hapless competition over and over again. :roll: You're telling me that those 60s white stiffs would stop Shaq from dunking almost every time? :lol


:oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

[SpanishACB]

...I'm not calling into question his physical superiority - that was definitely there. Which is exactly why I'm baffled why he wasn't hungrier for those rebounds!? Guys he was up against half his size were beating him in the paint to those rebounds. No rebound titles his entire professional career. What was his deal?

what's your agenda here? that Shaq's main flaw was his drive and work ethic otherwise uncontested goat?

i ask again, what's your agenda here? stating the obvious?

[swagga]

what's your agenda here? that Shaq's main flaw was his drive and work ethic otherwise uncontested goat?

i ask again, what's your agenda here? stating the obvious?

post count tbh

[Asukal]

Shaq would murder the league if he played in the 60's. He wouldn't be passive like that stat padding beta. :banana:

[aj1987]

Tier 1 -> Russell/Wilt/Kareem

Tier 2 -> Duncan

Tier 3 -> Shaq/Hakeem
:roll:

Tier 1 - Shaq/Kareem
Tier 2 - Duncan/Wilt/Hakeem
Tier 3 - D. Rob/Malone/Etc.


Shaq is the luckiest big man ever.
Yeah, playing with the GOAT coach, multiple HOF'er in their prime, multiple FMVP winners, multiple All-D and All-NBA players, etc.. Duncan is not lucky at all. :rolleyes:

[Papaya Petee]

Well is he not the 2nd most physically imposing center of all time? Why was he settling for top 5-10 in rebounding? Is that not falling short of his potential in a major statistical category?

No, he's easily the first. You're a delusional idiot who doesn't see this. Get off Wilt's nuts nobody is buying your shit.

[Psileas]

Shaq wasn't nearly as well equipped or as hard working as Wilt to be able to grab as many rebounds. Not quick enough, not elite reflexes, not elite anticipation, not elite stamina. He's been called out lots of times for laziness or for not doing a better job at rebounding (or shot blocking).
People can bitch about "weak eras" as much as they want. The fact is, Hakeem, Robinson, Garnett, Mutombo and, of course Rodman, went against the same type of competition that Shaq went, and each one produced at least one rebounding title. Past prime Wilt, like someone showed, was still a better rebounder than prime Shaq. Wilt's rebounding figures and even his rebounding %'s raised when facing Russell. You could put a Bill Russell on every single team in the league (totally unrealistic, the only way to come close would be if you took all the elite rebounders that have ever played the game and put them in the same league) and Wilt would still have won rebounding titles. Do people really think that Wilt having to face a great rebounding C (or PF) about once every 5 games and then play the rest of his games against the likes of Luc Longley, Kevin Duckworth, Oliver Miller, Rik Smits, Greg Ostertag, Michael Olowokandi, etc, would be able to keep him away from rebounding dominance and from outrebounding Shaq?
(Well, maybe they could, given that Wilt would probably be hypnotized out of boredom :lol )

[SHAQisGOAT]

Once averaged 14 RPG, in his peak was averaging 13, career TRB% is 17.8, used to grab 15 per game in the post-season... That's terrific if you ask me, and it takes more than just being a freak athlete to grab major boards, plus Shaq was much more than just a rebounder, let's say.

[Purch]

OP awoke my curiosity about Shaq ... look what we found ... hilarious


Shaq is the luckiest big man ever.





1) Playoffs - Games decided by 10 or more points -> Average Margin of victory was 17.9 points


http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-0-L7a83tf28/VNntFiAyxsI/AAAAAAAADxU/uNFHpn4LUis/s1600/12.jpg


2) Playoffs - Games decided by single digits -> Average Margin of victory was 4.4 points

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-qKz2jYn-YsM/VNntFkQnDMI/AAAAAAAADxQ/IMEkTjXt1wY/s1600/13.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-yImJWph-mUk/VNntGEG36NI/AAAAAAAADxg/vNwXQptuTxg/s1600/14.jpg
Did you really just decide not to post half of the games in those series, and pretend like no one would notice

[jongib369]

bullshit :roll:

Name 5 players of Shaq's era within 25lbs of Shaq. (In Shaq's 30 team league era) :lol


Off the top of my head:
Wayne Embry, Wes Unseld, Walt Bellamy, Bob Lanier and Tom Boerwinkle

All within 25lbs of Wilt when they played against him in 8-17 team sized league

And the great players in Wilt's time were just as good as the great players in Shaq's time... only they played against each other a helluva lot more times than in the 30 team league era.
When you have the time, add up the total amount of games Shaq played against his top 10 piers vs Wilt playing against his...I've done something similar in the past and the results were hilarious to be frank.

[ArbitraryWater]

Shaq's TRB% from 93-05: 18.2%

RPG in that period: 12.0

Wilt's TRB% from 71-73 (only years it is available): 19.4%

RPG in that period: 18.7

1.2% TRB difference, yet he was getting almost 7 more Rebounds per game.

Old era guys and their love for raw stats.

/thread, tbh

[Psileas]

Oh, and a rebounding rate of 19.4 vs 18.2 does NOT equal a 1.2% difference. The difference is 6.6%.
Basic math, Wilt haters.

[HiphopRelated]

11 is plenty

Then you account for dropping 30 on your head with players draped over him

The "shock" in the statement acts like he was Brook Lopez out there on the boards

[Overdrive]

Oh, and a rebounding rate of 19.4 vs 18.2 does NOT equal a 1.2% difference. The difference is 6.6%.
Basic math, Wilt haters.

What?

[jongib369]

http://cdn.c.photoshelter.com/img-get/I0000OnQiA7RoezQ/s/860/860/THURMOND-CHAMBERLAIN.jpg


http://dimemag.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Screen-Shot-2015-01-16-at-11.54.19-AM.png

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mdlatms8wL1qm9rypo1_1280.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Aei6Kh1Q428/UVHvk7UDHJI/AAAAAAAAAE8/QhOIhsaAzgk/s1600/Chamberlain-Jabbar-1972.jpg

Shaq stan logic
Less Allstar level competition+Playing the ones that are significantly less than Wilt+Not dominating that competition as much as Wilt=Stiffer competition and Shaq was more dominant
:biggums:

Shaqs in my top 3 but common there's better arguments to be made

[Psileas]

What?

What's the % difference between a 19.4 rate and a 0 rate?
19.4%?
Like I said, basic math.

[HiphopRelated]

What's the % difference between a 19.4 rate and a 0 rate?
19.4%?
Like I said, basic math.
It's never stated like that

He grabbed 1.2% more of the available rebounds

If a student gets 45% in a exam and 1 gets 50%, how do you state the difference?

[jongib369]

What's the % difference between a 19.4 rate and a 0 rate?
19.4%?
Like I said, basic math.
I'm not any good at math but that doesn't make sense at all to me....Are you trolling?...If the difference between 0 and 19.4 is 19.4, the difference between 19.4 and 18.2 is 1.2.....

[Euroleague]

...I'm not calling into question his physical superiority - that was definitely there. Which is exactly why I'm baffled why he wasn't hungrier for those rebounds!? Guys he was up against half his size were beating him in the paint to those rebounds. No rebound titles his entire professional career. What was his deal?

12,338 posts made by you here, which is exactly why I'm baffled as to why you haven't been banned even once.

Guys not even half the troll status of you, have been banned multiple times.

What's the deal?

[Demon Lizard]

...I'm not calling into question his physical superiority - that was definitely there. Which is exactly why I'm baffled why he wasn't hungrier for those rebounds!? Guys he was up against half his size were beating him in the paint to those rebounds. No rebound titles his entire professional career. What was his deal?

Only 11 for his career. He had multiple 13+ rebound seasons. It would easily be above 11 if it weren't for his final 6 seasons or so when he was no longer a "freak athlete."

[kshutts1]

I'm not any good at math but that doesn't make sense at all to me....Are you trolling?...If the difference between 0 and 19.4 is 19.4, the difference between 19.4 and 18.2 is 1.2.....
He thinks he's being smart, and is not using the difference, but rather the % difference.

Which can be accurate... but I don't think Wilt haters to want us to go that route with everything.

[senelcoolidge]

Shaq is a big man great, but at the same time an underachiever. That's why I wouldn't put him above Wilt. Shaq was lazy. You have guys 6'8" and even less grabbing more boards than Shaq for their careers.

[bizil]

For me, I don't think Shaq's motor or conditioning was like some of the other great rebounding big men. I think Shaq qualified as a great rebounder. Anytime u have gotten 14 boards in a season, thats great. But I think his conditioning or motor was inconsistent in his career. Those guys like Rodman and Ben Wallace were much smaller BUT YET were very athletic, very strong, and had great motors. Those things can ACTUALLY correlate to more effective rebounding.

[CavaliersFTW]

Shaq was not the best rebounder of his era, he was dominant scorer and capable defender in his prime, but he doesn't excel in both rebounding and defending. He posted his career highs in blocked shots and rebounds during his rookie season where he was a little over 300 pounds. I would just extract of resume of 31 year Shaq and how his game changed/diminish with the gain of weight:

"The second of the Lakers' problems literally is more monumental and even less-easily solved: Shaquille O'Neal's weight.
With his size and his skills, Shaq remains the monster of the midway. At the same time, his effectiveness has diminished in direct proportion to the increase of his body mass.

In his younger, lighter days, Shaq routinely would jump two or three times in pursuit of an elusive rebound. Lately, he's capable of only a couple multiple-jumps per game. Otherwise, it's one-and-done with the effort.
Shaq is so slow off the floor that younger/smaller/bouncier players regularly beat him to the top of his jump and snatch rebounds meant for him.
Whereas Shaq's rebounding range used to be three or four body-spaces in every direction, he now rebounds as though he were locked inside a telephone booth.
His shot-blocking range is also more limited because he's floor-bound and still gathering himself to jump while too many shots have already been launched in the lane.
Shaq's decreased lateral mobility severely hampers the Lakers' defensive rotations.
More of his shots are getting blocked than ever before.
His pivot spins and drop steps are now being performed in slo-mo.
Shaquille O'Neal
Shaq still gets his points, but as his weight increases, his other skills may be eroding.

Because he can't change direction, Shaq has tremendous difficulty trying to guard anybody who can face him up.
He's being tagged with more fouls because he usually arrives too late to the scene of the shot, and because he's becoming more susceptible to fakes.
Late in ballgames, he's often unable to dunk the ball in a crowd.
The fear is that Shaq is courting a career-ending injury because of all that weight."

And the link is here: http://espn.go.com/page2/s/rosen/030518.html
I think this answers it.

Do you think Shaq would have had a more dominating career had he stayed 300-315 his entire career?

[ralph_i_el]

Shaq is a big man great, but at the same time an underachiever. That's why I wouldn't put him above Wilt. Shaq was lazy. You have guys 6'8" and even less grabbing more boards than Shaq for their careers.

many of the greatest rebounders of all time are shorter than 6'9". More of the greatest rebounders are below 6'11" than above it

[CavaliersFTW]

many of the greatest rebounders of all time are shorter than 6'9". More of the greatest rebounders are below 6'11" than above it
But the two absolute greatest were 6-10 and above (Wilt, and Russell)

[swagga]

But the two absolute greatest were 6-10 and above (Wilt, and Russell)

rodman's rebounding rate says otherwise ... in a MUCH tougher era too.

[Psileas]

It's never stated like that

He grabbed 1.2% more of the available rebounds

If a student gets 45% in a exam and 1 gets 50%, how do you state the difference?

The 2nd student got 5 percentage points higher than the 1st. This is NOT the same with "5%". You can't determine "percent" by only knowing the percentage points differential and not the numbers compared.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Percentage_point


I'm not any good at math but that doesn't make sense at all to me....Are you trolling?...If the difference between 0 and 19.4 is 19.4, the difference between 19.4 and 18.2 is 1.2.....

Yes, but you can't use the % symbol in this case. It's factually wrong.

[Pointguard]

Rebounding is a desire skill thing. Shaq played closer to the rim than anybody I ever seen. You figure over bearing size, proximity, leaper, great athleticism would do him great favor as a rebounder. Guys like Eaton, had great size, length and timing also were not the rebounder you would think. The player has to see themselves as a great rebounder first, and then be disciplined enough to block out and pursue each rebound. If the desire suffers a little it all gets off track.

It certainly looked like Shaq could easily walk over KG to get A board but KG knew enough to get a body early enough to siphon Shaq's desire. All the multiple rebounder title holders had tricks.

[Gotterdammerung]

Shaq wasn't nearly as well equipped or as hard working as Wilt to be able to grab as many rebounds. Not quick enough, not elite reflexes, not elite anticipation, not elite stamina. He's been called out lots of times for laziness or for not doing a better job at rebounding (or shot blocking).

This, basically.
In order to be an all-time great rebounder you need to be able to jump diagonally as well as to the front & backwards. Super athletic guys like Dennis Rodman, Bill Russell were the best at this, making them 8 space rebounders. Wilt was all legs & arms - he jumped with the best and had that unearthy stamina. :eek:

Shaq was originally a 4 space rebounder but by the time he won 3 titles in LA his real estate rebounding shrunk to just 2. He never had the jumping agility or stamina of Wilt to win rebounding titles. :sleeping

[Smoke117]

I don't care what anyone says...Shaq could have done way, way more. The guy was a freak of nature and that can't be disputed. When he came into the league he was already the post powerful player coupled with an insane amount of agility/speed/quickness for a guy like that. It wasn't right how well he moved that gigantic body. It's just too bad he was too lazy and didn't have enough drive to be the best player he could be. If he had focused on developing his skills and doing the tough, dirty work like an Robinson or Hakeem...he could have been the greatest player of all time.

[MavsSuperFan]

11 Rebounds in shaqs era = 30 rebounds in wilts era

[Overdrive]

The 2nd student got 5 percentage points higher than the 1st. This is NOT the same with "5%". You can't determine "percent" by only knowing the percentage points differential and not the numbers compared.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Percentage_point



Yes, but you can't use the % symbol in this case. It's factually wrong.

ok, but that article clearly states

[Quote] the incidence of smoking decreased by 10 percentage points even though smoking did not decrease by 10 percent (actually it decreased by 25 percent)

[Psileas]

So if someone says difference he obviously means percent points, because anything else is impossible.

He phrased it in the way that would sound the most negligent, trying to put emphasis on the "1.2" thing. The margin may not be big, but it's not as negligent as the 1.2 figure indicates, which is why I mentioned the 6.5 figure.

To put it another way, this rebounding ratio difference is practically as big as the margin between a 28 ppg scorer and a 30 ppg scorer. Not really big, but not coverable within a few games. Basically, it's like 1992 Karl Malone trying to catch 1992 Michael Jordan.

[G-train]

I don't care what anyone says...Shaq could have done way, way more. The guy was a freak of nature and that can't be disputed. When he came into the league he was already the post powerful player coupled with an insane amount of agility/speed/quickness for a guy like that. It wasn't right how well he moved that gigantic body. It's just too bad he was too lazy and didn't have enough drive to be the best player he could be. If he had focused on developing his skills and doing the tough, dirty work like an Robinson or Hakeem...he could have been the greatest player of all time.

He came into the league and averaged 13 rpg.

Shaq being lazy is one of the biggest crocks of poop in the history of the NBA.

Firstly, no one who is lazy sniffs the NBA. They all worked their ass off. Secondly, no one is in contention for a top 5 player ever, without working their ass off, substantially more than joe average who is in the NBA, who is working his ass off too, just to compete with you.

I watched every Shaq season, and throughout his early years to prime, he improved every season.

In his prime he dominated both ends of the court.

A number of posters here obviously are relying on basic stats and have little to no knowledge of his playing abilities, or the intangibles of basketball.

[Prime_Shaq]

He came into the league and averaged 13 rpg.

Shaq being lazy is one of the biggest crocks of poop in the history of the NBA.

Firstly, no one who is lazy sniffs the NBA. They all worked their ass off. Secondly, no one is in contention for a top 5 player ever, without working their ass off, substantially more than joe average who is in the NBA, who is working his ass off too, just to compete with you.

I watched every Shaq season, and throughout his early years to prime, he improved every season.

In his prime he dominated both ends of the court.

A number of posters here obviously are relying on basic stats and have little to no knowledge of his playing abilities, or the intangibles of basketball.
Well said good sir :applause:

[CavaliersFTW]

He came into the league and averaged 13 rpg.

Shaq being lazy is one of the biggest crocks of poop in the history of the NBA.

Firstly, no one who is lazy sniffs the NBA. They all worked their ass off. Secondly, no one is in contention for a top 5 player ever, without working their ass off, substantially more than joe average who is in the NBA, who is working his ass off too, just to compete with you.

I watched every Shaq season, and throughout his early years to prime, he improved every season.

In his prime he dominated both ends of the court.

A number of posters here obviously are relying on basic stats and have little to no knowledge of his playing abilities, or the intangibles of basketball.
shaq wasn't lazy on the floor... he was lazy off the floor.

he famously said he only worked on his game on company time (IE... not during the off season)

why do you think he got so fat.

[G-train]

shaq wasn't lazy on the floor... he was lazy off the floor.

he famously said he only worked on his game on company time (IE... not during the off season)

why do you think he got so fat.

I don't think you get it.

To sniff the d-league, you cannot be lazy off the floor.

How many seasons did he start overweight, that he wasn't nursing injury during previous off season?

[deja vu]

Damn... so lazy and yet so dominant. :bowdown:

[ILLsmak]

Rebounding is a desire skill thing. Shaq played closer to the rim than anybody I ever seen. You figure over bearing size, proximity, leaper, great athleticism would do him great favor as a rebounder. Guys like Eaton, had great size, length and timing also were not the rebounder you would think. The player has to see themselves as a great rebounder first, and then be disciplined enough to block out and pursue each rebound. If the desire suffers a little it all gets off track.

It certainly looked like Shaq could easily walk over KG to get A board but KG knew enough to get a body early enough to siphon Shaq's desire. All the multiple rebounder title holders had tricks.

Shaq was a great offensive rebounder. Dude got some rebounds.nobody else would have grabbed. However, he was also a first option more so than those guys listed. You'd think it would be harder to grab a rebound if you were shooting most often. This also wasnt the sixties and he was making a high percentage or getting fouled.

As for defensive rebounding, shaq took up a ton of space. If you think outside the box you could say the majority of shots on o were probably over shaq (that he was contesting) or far enough away. That's why he performed well with guys like haslem or grant. If shaq was averaging 8 rpg id see the point, but he was a beast on boards in his prime. He wasn't as mobile as some and the amount of defensive attention probably limited his offensive rebs, and the defensive physical presence contesting shots probably limited his d rebs.

Just my pov. I don't recall shaq getting beat for rebs often until he declined.

-Smak

[deja vu]

Shaq is a big man great, but at the same time an underachiever. That's why I wouldn't put him above Wilt. Shaq was lazy. You have guys 6'8" and even less grabbing more boards than Shaq for their careers.
Those guys are usually rebounding specialists and defensive demons who never have to focus on scoring.

[La Frescobaldi]

http://s1.totalprosports.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/wilt-chamberlain.jpg


"More physically dominating than Shaq" :yaohappy:



Taking a picture from like 1962? Shaq wasn't all that big when he was that age, either:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41jYOo8aDmL.jpg
:roll: :roll:
They both bulked up later so basically it's nothing like you are making it out to be.

Older Chamberlain was powerful strong but without any flab a la the Big Shaq-o-potomus.

[CavaliersFTW]

Taking a picture from like 1962? Shaq wasn't all that big when he was that age, either:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41jYOo8aDmL.jpg
:roll: :roll:
They both bulked up later so basically it's nothing like you are making it out to be.

Older Chamberlain was powerful strong but without any flab a la the Big Shaq-o-potomus.
also, the pic of wilt is a closeup without a sports photography telephoto zoom lens (which fills out figure)

here's shaq with a similar close-up camera:

http://pwtorch.com/artman2/uploads/5/shaq.jpg
http://38.media.tumblr.com/1d42cfd51759545f8ae0df3001c9501c/tumblr_n5dfbdjqtL1r8coi2o1_500.png

:lol

[La Frescobaldi]

Wilt only averaged 19 ppg in the Finals and he was a 7'1 275 lb "freak athlete"

Obviously you don't know much about the man's career. Take a look at the FG-A. 1969 stands out in particular.

1964
146 points in 5 games = 29.2 ppg

1967

FG-A RB AS F PTS

6-8 33 10 2 16
4-10 38 10 2 10
12-23 26 5 3 26
3-6 27 8 2 10
9-15 24 4 4 20
82 total, 18 ppg

1969
FG-A RB AS F PTS
6 15
1 4
6 16
3 8
5 15
1 8
7-8 27 3 5 18
84 total, 12ppg

1970
FG-A RB AS F PTS

8-14 24 5 2 17
9-20 24 2 3 19
7-10 26 4 4 21
7-13 25 7 3 18
9-12 19 3 2 22
20-27 27 3 3 45
10-16 24 4 1 21
179 total, 25.5 ppg


1972
FG-A RB AS F PTS
5-11 19 1 4 12
10-19 24 4 3 23
9-10 20 1 4 26
5-11 24 3 5 12
10-14 29 4 2 24
97 total, 19.4 ppg

1973
FG-A RB AS F PTS

5-11 20 6 3 12
2-4 20 0 3 5
2-3 13 5 4 5
4-8 19 5 3 13
9-16 21 3 3 23
78 total, 15.6 ppg

I added rebounds where possible. Since you de-railed the thread which is about boards, not scoring.

You can see clearly that he shot high percentages when he had the ball.... but he was literally the 5th option most of the time on the Lakers...... who went to the Finals every year he was with them except '71, when Baylor and West both missed the playoffs. He was hurt in the '69 Finals, he was hurting in the '70 Finals, and (imo) was out of gas in '73.

Since you don't know anything about Chamberlain, I expect you also don't know that O'Neal's teams were swept 6 times in the playoffs.

[Bigsmoke]

you cant do everything.

Shaq rebounding went up in the playoffs :confusedshrug:

[CavaliersFTW]

Obviously you don't know much about the man's career. Take a look at the FG-A. 1969 stands out in particular.

1964
146 points in 5 games = 29.2 ppg

1967

FG-A RB AS F PTS

6-8 33 10 2 16
4-10 38 10 2 10
12-23 26 5 3 26
3-6 27 8 2 10
9-15 24 4 4 20
82 total, 18 ppg

1969
FG-A RB AS F PTS
6 15
1 4
6 16
3 8
5 15
1 8
7-8 27 3 5 18
84 total, 12ppg

1970
FG-A RB AS F PTS

8-14 24 5 2 17
9-20 24 2 3 19
7-10 26 4 4 21
7-13 25 7 3 18
9-12 19 3 2 22
20-27 27 3 3 45
10-16 24 4 1 21
179 total, 25.5 ppg


1972
FG-A RB AS F PTS
5-11 19 1 4 12
10-19 24 4 3 23
9-10 20 1 4 26
5-11 24 3 5 12
10-14 29 4 2 24
97 total, 19.4 ppg

1973
FG-A RB AS F PTS

5-11 20 6 3 12
2-4 20 0 3 5
2-3 13 5 4 5
4-8 19 5 3 13
9-16 21 3 3 23
78 total, 15.6 ppg

I added rebounds where possible. Since you de-railed the thread which is about boards, not scoring.

You can see clearly that he shot high percentages when he had the ball.... but he was literally the 5th option most of the time on the Lakers...... who went to the Finals every year he was with them except '71, when Baylor and West both missed the playoffs. He was hurt in the '69 Finals, he was hurting in the '70 Finals, and (imo) was out of gas in '73.

Since you don't know anything about Chamberlain, I expect you also don't know that O'Neal's teams were swept 6 times in the playoffs.
ouch

[Roundball_Rock]

Shaq played in the slowest era of basketball since the 50's. For his time he was a very good rebounder, although he had the potential to do more as he demonstrated in the playoffs. Still, his ranked 2nd in rebounding three times and was 3rd twice.

[La Frescobaldi]

you cant do everything.

Shaq rebounding went up in the playoffs :confusedshrug:

see, that's the thing though.

The greatest players I've ever seen........ Chamberlain, Jabbar, and Jordan....... at their very best, at the top of their game.... they DID do everything.

This is precisely why, Bird and Magic are right behind them... while Shaq, great as he was in all his Superman-caped glory of the early 2000s.... is not.

[G-train]

see, that's the thing though.

The greatest players I've ever seen........ Chamberlain, Jabbar, and Jordan....... at their very best, at the top of their game.... they DID do everything.

This is precisely why, Bird and Magic are right behind them... while Shaq, great as he was in all his Superman-caped glory of the early 2000s.... is not.

Chamberlain and Jabbar did no more of everything than Shaq did.

[dankok8]

His career is over and Shaq's career proved he isn't 1/20th as dominant as Wilt.

Seriously? 1/20th? That's insane hyperbole. Why am I not surprised? :oldlol:

Let's take a look.

Regular Season

Wilt: 7x scoring title, 11x rebounding title, 9x FG% title, 8x leader in PER
Shaq: 2x scoring title, 0x rebounding title, 10x FG% title, 5x leader in PER

Wilt: 30.1 ppg, 22.9 rpg, 4.4 apg on 54.0 %FG/51.1 %FT in 45.8 mpg
Shaq: 23.7 ppg, 10.9 rpg, 2.5 apg on 58.2 %FG/52.7 %FT in 34.7 mpg

Playoffs

Wilt: 1x scoring title, 8x rebounding title, 2x FG% title, 6x leader in PER
Shaq: 1x scoring title, 2x rebounding title, 1x FG% title, 4x leader in PER

Wilt: 22.5 ppg, 24.5 rpg, 4.2 apg on 52.2 %FG/46.5 %FT in 47.2 mpg
Shaq: 24.3 ppg, 11.6 rpg, 2.7 apg on 56.3 %FG/50.4 %FT in 37.5 mpg



Even in the regular season Shaq was no slouch. Led the league in scoring twice and in FG% ten times. Sure Wilt was more dominant but 20 times more? I don't buy it.

In the playoffs Shaq actually has an edge on Wilt. Now sure Wilt played a lot of playoffs games out of his prime (80 of his 160 games came from 1969-1973) but so did Shaq (80 of his 216 games came from 2004-2011). O'Neal also played a lot of playoff games when he was not in his prime any more.

Rebounding-wise a direct raw number comparison doesn't work. It's a given that Wilt is a better rebounder but TRB% comparison (20.2% for Wilt based on fpliii's work vs 17.8% for Shaq) makes it very unlikely that Wilt would outrebound Shaq more than 1-2 rebounds a game. Some people like to pretend like Shaq was Chris Bosh on the glass...

[La Frescobaldi]

Chamberlain and Jabbar did no more of everything than Shaq did.

Yes they did.
Yes, actually, they did. By wide amounts.

This is exactly the same stuff I was talking about before last year's Finals when I said Leonard was as good or better than Durant at every single aspect of basketball except scoring. Everything includes a lot more than scoring.

Better rebounders. Not remotely close.

Better at drawing double teams without the ball.

Better passers. Somewhat close - Shaq was a great passer for a big man but not at their level.

Better defenders. Not remotely close, particularly in Chamberlain's case, but Jabbar in the early 70s was astoundingly great at defense.

When you factor in the League rules around Shaq doing the body slam when he had the ball in the paint that those other guys didn't get and nor did anybody else, ever...... better at everything, tbh.

[dreamwarrior]

He gained 50lbs and got lazy after coming to LA.

[G-train]

When you factor in the League rules around Shaq doing the body slam when he had the ball in the paint that those other guys didn't get and nor did anybody else, ever...... better at everything, tbh.


This is when I know you didn't see much of Shaquille O'Neal.

[Prime_Shaq]

also, the pic of wilt is a closeup without a sports photography telephoto zoom lens (which fills out figure)

here's shaq with a similar close-up camera:

http://pwtorch.com/artman2/uploads/5/shaq.jpg
http://38.media.tumblr.com/1d42cfd51759545f8ae0df3001c9501c/tumblr_n5dfbdjqtL1r8coi2o1_500.png

:lol
Body like that and still dominated the league :applause:

[SHAQisGOAT]

Chamberlain and Jabbar did no more of everything than Shaq did.

Well, if the DPOY was award back then, Wilt and Jabbar would've won mutiple... They were better defenders than O'Neal, all at their best defensively. Shaquille being great and very impactful on D at his peak, don't get me wrong.

I would also say Wilt and Kareem were better passers -judging from what I've seen and also regarding stats - although Shaq was a good passing center and a pretty smart player.

Wilt was also a better rebounder, all three of them were terrific at it though.

Not really gonna dissect all the "parts" of scoring, right now...

With that said, I still feel that Shaq had the GOAT peak (with Kareem, MJ, Wilt and Bird making the top5).

[toxicxr6]

watching the utube video of wilt chamberlain what do I see in his highlights?

Craploads of goaltends.... Even more offensive fouls...people guarding him that are AT LEAST 6 inches shorter than him.. all the bloodey time..

Wilts era sucked..im sorry.. sure he would be a good player in the modern era but there is no way in hell he could play on both offense and defense the same way.. His rebounding numbers are proof that you cant just compare players from different eras. the stats just don't translate.. at all

[Lebron23]

Prime Shaq was a Better Playoffs and Finals Performer than Wilt Chamberlain.

[La Frescobaldi]

This is when I know you didn't see much of Shaquille O'Neal.
:lol

[FreezingTsmoove]

Most of his games ended in blowouts where he didnt play. Look at his playoff rebounding numbers

[LAZERUSS]

11 Rebounds in shaqs era = 30 rebounds in wilts era

:roll: :roll: :roll:

"Wilt-haters" math again...

Subtract TEAM rebounds from team totals up to the 67-68 season, and the league averages were around 60 rpg per team.

For instance, in the '67 post-season, the Sixers grabbed 1115 TOTAL rebounds, BUT, after subtracting TEAM rebounds, their ACTUAL total was 995. Or roughly a 10% difference. And along with the Warriors, they were by far the best rebounding teams in that post-season.

So, when the average team had 551 rebounds in 8 playoff games that season, it was more like 500...or 62.5 rpg. In Shaq's 2000 post-season, teams averaged 43 rpg.

Let's do the math together shall we?

43/ 62.5 = .688.

So, a 30 rpg performance in '67, would translate to ... 30 x .688 = 20.6 rpg in 2000. Of course, Chamberlain didn't quite average 30 rpg in the '67 post-season...he was "only" at 29.1. So, throw THAT Wilt into 2000, and he would have "only" averaged an even 20 rpg.

BTW, in the '67 EDF's, and against RUSSELL...Chamberlain AVERAGED a 25% TRB%. He had THREE games of 27, 28, and even 30% (32 out of 120 total rebounds, 36 out of a total of 128, and 41 out of a total of 134.) He outrebounded Russell in that series, per game, by a 32.0 rpg to 23.4 rpg margin...or NINE rpg!

Back to 2000 post-season. Shaq played 43.5 mpg, and averaged a career high 15.4 rpg. Chamberlain in 2000, and playing 48 mpg (47.9 mpg) would have averaged 20 rpg. Reduce Wilt down to 43.5 mpg, and he would have averaged 18.2 rpg. Of course, while Shaq feasted on the likes of Divac, Longley/Miller, a washed up Sabonis who couldn't jump over a match-stick, and Smits/Davis...all of whom were pathetic rebounders...Chamberlain SLAUGHTERED Dierking, Russell, and Thurmond. The last two of which are among the only four players (Wilt and Lucas), who have ever averaged 20+ rpg in a season.


And for those idiots who honestly believe that Shaq was stronger than Chamberlain? :roll: :roll: :roll:

Chamberlain in the mid-60's, and at about 290 lbs, was KNOWN to have benched 425 lbs. And by the late 60's/early 70's, he was clearly MUCH stronger. The internet is PLASTERED with accounts of Chamberlain doing 500+. And even into his 50's, there was an eye-witness account of Wilt benching 465 lbs!

Furthermore, none other than Arnold himself, was stunned by the massive weight-lifting and strength of Chamberlain when the two worked out. Of course, all anyone needs to do is just google Wilt's strength, and there are literally dozens, if not hundreds, of accounts of Wilt's staggering power.

Meanwhile, I have read accounts of Shaq supposedly benching as much as 450. However, just a couple of years ago, a near 400 lbs Shaq couldn't BUDGE 405 in a bench exhibition with Barkley. Hard to believe that he could lose strength so rapidly, while Chamberlain was as strong in his 50's as he was in his 30's.

As for the "Motumbo reference"...sure he over-powered him...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJ3FXLyNFew]

FLAGRANT offensive fouls. Had the NBA allowed Wilt to play like that, and they would have been carrying players out in body-bags...including guys like Wayne Embry and Nate Thurmond, whom Chamberlain unintentionally knocked into the first row of seats while battling for rebounds.


And for the "Rodman rebound rate crap"...

the man seldom played more than 30 mpg, and it was even worse in the post-season, where he DECLINED dramatically, while Chamberlain ELEVATED his rebounding. Furthermore, Rodman couldn't even average 1 bpg....while Wilt most certainly averaged 8+ in his career. Not only that, but who knows how many more Chamberlain went after in the course of his games? Guess what, blocked shots, and attempted blocked shots HURT rebounding totals. You could probably easily add 2-3 more rebounds to Wilt's per game totals had he cemented himself under the basket. On top of that, Wilt was playing 48 mpg...which the "Wilt-bashers" alway ignore in these "stats" discussions. Clearly, had Wilt "only" played 40-44 mpg in his career, and his rebounding EFFICIENCY (as well as his FG% EFFICIENCY) would SURELY have risen. And finally, while Rodman was an after-thought on the offensive end, Wilt was haning 40 ppg seasons on the offensive end, and still rebounding at 24+% TRB%'s.

And one more time...Chamberlain outrebounded EVERYBODY, and usually by HUGE margins. He was, BY FAR, the most dominant post-season rebounder in NBA history, and only Moses would be in the next vicinity.

[Milbuck]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

"Wilt-haters" math again...

Subtract TEAM rebounds from team totals up to the 67-68 season, and the league averages were around 60 rpg per team.

For instance, in the '67 post-season, the Sixers grabbed 1115 TOTAL rebounds, BUT, after subtracting TEAM rebounds, their ACTUAL total was 995. Or roughly a 10% difference. And along with the Warriors, they were by far the best rebounding teams in that post-season.

So, when the average team had 551 rebounds in 8 playoff games that season, it was more like 500...or 62.5 rpg. In Shaq's 2000 post-season, teams averaged 43 rpg.

Let's do the math together shall we?

43/ 62.5 = .688.

So, a 30 rpg performance in '67, would translate to ... 30 x .688 = 20.6 rpg in 2000. Of course, Chamberlain didn't quite average 30 rpg in the '67 post-season...he was "only" at 29.1. So, throw THAT Wilt into 2000, and he would have "only" averaged an even 20 rpg.

BTW, in the '67 EDF's, and against RUSSELL...Chamberlain AVERAGED a 25% TRB%. He had THREE games of 27, 28, and even 30% (32 out of 120 total rebounds, 36 out of a total of 128, and 41 out of a total of 134.) He outrebounded Russell in that series, per game, by a 32.0 rpg to 23.4 rpg margin...or NINE rpg!

Back to 2000 post-season. Shaq played 43.5 mpg, and averaged a career high 15.4 rpg. Chamberlain in 2000, and playing 48 mpg (47.9 mpg) would have averaged 20 rpg. Reduce Wilt down to 43.5 mpg, and he would have averaged 18.2 rpg. Of course, while Shaq feasted on the likes of Divac, Longley/Miller, a washed up Sabonis who couldn't jump over a match-stick, and Smits/Davis...all of whom were pathetic rebounders...Chamberlain SLAUGHTERED Dierking, Russell, and Thurmond. The last two of which are among the only four players (Wilt and Lucas), who have ever averaged 20+ rpg in a season.


And for those idiots who honestly believe that Shaq was stronger than Chamberlain? :roll: :roll: :roll:

Chamberlain in the mid-60's, and at about 290 lbs, was KNOWN to have benched 425 lbs. And by the late 60's/early 70's, he was clearly MUCH stronger. The internet is PLASTERED with accounts of Chamberlain doing 500+. And even into his 50's, there was an eye-witness account of Wilt benching 465 lbs!

Furthermore, none other than Arnold himself, was stunned by the massive weight-lifting and strength of Chamberlain when the two worked out. Of course, all anyone needs to do is just google Wilt's strength, and there are literally dozens, if not hundreds, of accounts of Wilt's staggering power.

Meanwhile, I have read accounts of Shaq supposedly benching as much as 450. However, just a couple of years ago, a near 400 lbs Shaq couldn't BUDGE 405 in a bench exhibition with Barkley. Hard to believe that he could lose strength so rapidly, while Chamberlain was as strong in his 50's as he was in his 30's.

As for the "Motumbo reference"...sure he over-powered him...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJ3FXLyNFew]

FLAGRANT offensive fouls. Had the NBA allowed Wilt to play like that, and they would have been carrying players out in body-bags...including guys like Wayne Embry and Nate Thurmond, whom Chamberlain unintentionally knocked into the first row of seats while battling for rebounds.


And for the "Rodman rebound rate crap"...

the man seldom played more than 30 mpg, and it was even worse in the post-season, where he DECLINED dramatically, while Chamberlain ELEVATED his rebounding. Furthermore, Rodman couldn't even average 1 bpg....while Wilt most certainly averaged 8+ in his career. Not only that, but who knows how many more Chamberlain went after in the course of his games? Guess what, blocked shots, and attempted blocked shots HURT rebounding totals. You could probably easily add 2-3 more rebounds to Wilt's per game totals had he cemented himself under the basket. On top of that, Wilt was playing 48 mpg...which the "Wilt-bashers" alway ignore in these "stats" discussions. Clearly, had Wilt "only" played 40-44 mpg in his career, and his rebounding EFFICIENCY (as well as his FG% EFFICIENCY) would SURELY have risen. And finally, while Rodman was an after-thought on the offensive end, Wilt was haning 40 ppg seasons on the offensive end, and still rebounding at 24+% TRB%'s.

And one more time...Chamberlain outrebounded EVERYBODY, and usually by HUGE margins. He was, BY FAR, the most dominant post-season rebounder in NBA history, and only Moses would be in the next vicinity.
Came here to say this.

[ralph_i_el]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

"Wilt-haters" math again...

Subtract TEAM rebounds from team totals up to the 67-68 season, and the league averages were around 60 rpg per team.

For instance, in the '67 post-season, the Sixers grabbed 1115 TOTAL rebounds, BUT, after subtracting TEAM rebounds, their ACTUAL total was 995. Or roughly a 10% difference. And along with the Warriors, they were by far the best rebounding teams in that post-season.

So, when the average team had 551 rebounds in 8 playoff games that season, it was more like 500...or 62.5 rpg. In Shaq's 2000 post-season, teams averaged 43 rpg.

Let's do the math together shall we?

43/ 62.5 = .688.

So, a 30 rpg performance in '67, would translate to ... 30 x .688 = 20.6 rpg in 2000. Of course, Chamberlain didn't quite average 30 rpg in the '67 post-season...he was "only" at 29.1. So, throw THAT Wilt into 2000, and he would have "only" averaged an even 20 rpg.

BTW, in the '67 EDF's, and against RUSSELL...Chamberlain AVERAGED a 25% TRB%. He had THREE games of 27, 28, and even 30% (32 out of 120 total rebounds, 36 out of a total of 128, and 41 out of a total of 134.) He outrebounded Russell in that series, per game, by a 32.0 rpg to 23.4 rpg margin...or NINE rpg!

Back to 2000 post-season. Shaq played 43.5 mpg, and averaged a career high 15.4 rpg. Chamberlain in 2000, and playing 48 mpg (47.9 mpg) would have averaged 20 rpg. Reduce Wilt down to 43.5 mpg, and he would have averaged 18.2 rpg. Of course, while Shaq feasted on the likes of Divac, Longley/Miller, a washed up Sabonis who couldn't jump over a match-stick, and Smits/Davis...all of whom were pathetic rebounders...Chamberlain SLAUGHTERED Dierking, Russell, and Thurmond. The last two of which are among the only four players (Wilt and Lucas), who have ever averaged 20+ rpg in a season.


And for those idiots who honestly believe that Shaq was stronger than Chamberlain? :roll: :roll: :roll:

Chamberlain in the mid-60's, and at about 290 lbs, was KNOWN to have benched 425 lbs. And by the late 60's/early 70's, he was clearly MUCH stronger. The internet is PLASTERED with accounts of Chamberlain doing 500+. And even into his 50's, there was an eye-witness account of Wilt benching 465 lbs!

Furthermore, none other than Arnold himself, was stunned by the massive weight-lifting and strength of Chamberlain when the two worked out. Of course, all anyone needs to do is just google Wilt's strength, and there are literally dozens, if not hundreds, of accounts of Wilt's staggering power.

Meanwhile, I have read accounts of Shaq supposedly benching as much as 450. However, just a couple of years ago, a near 400 lbs Shaq couldn't BUDGE 405 in a bench exhibition with Barkley. Hard to believe that he could lose strength so rapidly, while Chamberlain was as strong in his 50's as he was in his 30's.

As for the "Motumbo reference"...sure he over-powered him...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJ3FXLyNFew]

FLAGRANT offensive fouls. Had the NBA allowed Wilt to play like that, and they would have been carrying players out in body-bags...including guys like Wayne Embry and Nate Thurmond, whom Chamberlain unintentionally knocked into the first row of seats while battling for rebounds.


And for the "Rodman rebound rate crap"...

the man seldom played more than 30 mpg, and it was even worse in the post-season, where he DECLINED dramatically, while Chamberlain ELEVATED his rebounding. Furthermore, Rodman couldn't even average 1 bpg....while Wilt most certainly averaged 8+ in his career. Not only that, but who knows how many more Chamberlain went after in the course of his games? Guess what, blocked shots, and attempted blocked shots HURT rebounding totals. You could probably easily add 2-3 more rebounds to Wilt's per game totals had he cemented himself under the basket. On top of that, Wilt was playing 48 mpg...which the "Wilt-bashers" alway ignore in these "stats" discussions. Clearly, had Wilt "only" played 40-44 mpg in his career, and his rebounding EFFICIENCY (as well as his FG% EFFICIENCY) would SURELY have risen. And finally, while Rodman was an after-thought on the offensive end, Wilt was haning 40 ppg seasons on the offensive end, and still rebounding at 24+% TRB%'s.

And one more time...Chamberlain outrebounded EVERYBODY, and usually by HUGE margins. He was, BY FAR, the most dominant post-season rebounder in NBA history, and only Moses would be in the next vicinity.

http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20081126173842/uncyclopedia/images/7/72/Orly.jpg

Wilt played in a bogus league and if he played today he wouldn't be putting up anywhere near those stats. It's pointless to use his stats in any discussion. It's pointless to compare Wilt to players who played modern competition in general.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

"Wilt-haters" math again...

Subtract TEAM rebounds from team totals up to the 67-68 season, and the league averages were around 60 rpg per team.

For instance, in the '67 post-season, the Sixers grabbed 1115 TOTAL rebounds, BUT, after subtracting TEAM rebounds, their ACTUAL total was 995. Or roughly a 10% difference. And along with the Warriors, they were by far the best rebounding teams in that post-season.

So, when the average team had 551 rebounds in 8 playoff games that season, it was more like 500...or 62.5 rpg. In Shaq's 2000 post-season, teams averaged 43 rpg.

Let's do the math together shall we?

43/ 62.5 = .688.

So, a 30 rpg performance in '67, would translate to ... 30 x .688 = 20.6 rpg in 2000. Of course, Chamberlain didn't quite average 30 rpg in the '67 post-season...he was "only" at 29.1. So, throw THAT Wilt into 2000, and he would have "only" averaged an even 20 rpg.

BTW, in the '67 EDF's, and against RUSSELL...Chamberlain AVERAGED a 25% TRB%. He had THREE games of 27, 28, and even 30% (32 out of 120 total rebounds, 36 out of a total of 128, and 41 out of a total of 134.) He outrebounded Russell in that series, per game, by a 32.0 rpg to 23.4 rpg margin...or NINE rpg!

Back to 2000 post-season. Shaq played 43.5 mpg, and averaged a career high 15.4 rpg. Chamberlain in 2000, and playing 48 mpg (47.9 mpg) would have averaged 20 rpg. Reduce Wilt down to 43.5 mpg, and he would have averaged 18.2 rpg. Of course, while Shaq feasted on the likes of Divac, Longley/Miller, a washed up Sabonis who couldn't jump over a match-stick, and Smits/Davis...all of whom were pathetic rebounders...Chamberlain SLAUGHTERED Dierking, Russell, and Thurmond. The last two of which are among the only four players (Wilt and Lucas), who have ever averaged 20+ rpg in a season.


And for those idiots who honestly believe that Shaq was stronger than Chamberlain? :roll: :roll: :roll:

Chamberlain in the mid-60's, and at about 290 lbs, was KNOWN to have benched 425 lbs. And by the late 60's/early 70's, he was clearly MUCH stronger. The internet is PLASTERED with accounts of Chamberlain doing 500+. And even into his 50's, there was an eye-witness account of Wilt benching 465 lbs!

Furthermore, none other than Arnold himself, was stunned by the massive weight-lifting and strength of Chamberlain when the two worked out. Of course, all anyone needs to do is just google Wilt's strength, and there are literally dozens, if not hundreds, of accounts of Wilt's staggering power.

Meanwhile, I have read accounts of Shaq supposedly benching as much as 450. However, just a couple of years ago, a near 400 lbs Shaq couldn't BUDGE 405 in a bench exhibition with Barkley. Hard to believe that he could lose strength so rapidly, while Chamberlain was as strong in his 50's as he was in his 30's.

As for the "Motumbo reference"...sure he over-powered him...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJ3FXLyNFew]

FLAGRANT offensive fouls. Had the NBA allowed Wilt to play like that, and they would have been carrying players out in body-bags...including guys like Wayne Embry and Nate Thurmond, whom Chamberlain unintentionally knocked into the first row of seats while battling for rebounds.


And for the "Rodman rebound rate crap"...

the man seldom played more than 30 mpg, and it was even worse in the post-season, where he DECLINED dramatically, while Chamberlain ELEVATED his rebounding. Furthermore, Rodman couldn't even average 1 bpg....while Wilt most certainly averaged 8+ in his career. Not only that, but who knows how many more Chamberlain went after in the course of his games? Guess what, blocked shots, and attempted blocked shots HURT rebounding totals. You could probably easily add 2-3 more rebounds to Wilt's per game totals had he cemented himself under the basket. On top of that, Wilt was playing 48 mpg...which the "Wilt-bashers" alway ignore in these "stats" discussions. Clearly, had Wilt "only" played 40-44 mpg in his career, and his rebounding EFFICIENCY (as well as his FG% EFFICIENCY) would SURELY have risen. And finally, while Rodman was an after-thought on the offensive end, Wilt was haning 40 ppg seasons on the offensive end, and still rebounding at 24+% TRB%'s.

And one more time...Chamberlain outrebounded EVERYBODY, and usually by HUGE margins. He was, BY FAR, the most dominant post-season rebounder in NBA history, and only Moses would be in the next vicinity.


tl;dr

I did however, deduce that you went through some mathematics to adjust rebounds from the 60s to todays...I bet that you forgot some things:

1) Quality of competition. Shaq was going up against quality centers - 90s = great center era. 60s = weak era.

2) The 3 point line changed the NBA as much as any rule change minus the shot clock. No longer is every shot attempt as close to the rim as possible - resulting in inflated rebounding and block (had they been tracked) totals.

So yes, Peak shaq would undoubtedly average somewhere in the mid 20s for rebounds, at least.

[LAZERUSS]

BTW, Robert Parish played in the NBA up to the 96-97 season. He faced both Artis Gilmore, and Shaq in his career.

Thanks to PHILA for this gem...

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=6048080&postcount=16


Boston Globe - Dec 9, 1992

"He's the strongest guy I've played against since Artis Gilmore. "He's a very solid 300 pounds. He's all man."



Christian Science Monitor - Jan 25, 1993

After the Celtics lost to the Magic, 113-94, Robert Parish said that in his 17- year career, only longtime Chicago Bulls star Artis Gilmore was physically stronger than O'Neal, but that Shaq was more athletic - "and that is a very scary thought," he said in mock seriousness.

Which is interesting, because in the '72 NBA/ABA All-Star game, Chamberlain threw Artis around like a rag doll.

Watch CavsFan footage at the 4:20 mark...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_B7jVTJ_CIE

Of course, if you watch and listen to the first 10-15 minutes, or so, you will see and hear many accounts of his over-powering strength.

[LAZERUSS]

tl;dr

I did however, deduce that you went through some mathematics to adjust rebounds from the 60s to todays...I bet that you forgot some things:

1) Quality of competition. Shaq was going up against quality centers - 90s = great center era. 60s = weak era.

2) The 3 point line changed the NBA as much as any rule change minus the shot clock. No longer is every shot attempt as close to the rim as possible - resulting in inflated rebounding and block (had they been tracked) totals.

So yes, Peak shaq would undoubtedly average somewhere in the mid 20s for rebounds, at least.

"Weak era"...:roll: :roll: :roll:

In the 60's Chamberlain went up against the likes of Bellamy, Reed, Thurmond, and Russell in about HALF of his games.

Meanwhile, Shaq played in watered-down leagues of 29 teams, the vast majority with clowns and weak rebounding centers. He might face Hakeem, Ewing, D-Rob, and Mutombo in about 12 of his 82 games.

[DatAsh]

Seriously? 1/20th? That's insane hyperbole. Why am I not surprised? :oldlol:

Let's take a look.

Regular Season

Wilt: 7x scoring title, 11x rebounding title, 9x FG% title, 8x leader in PER
Shaq: 2x scoring title, 0x rebounding title, 10x FG% title, 5x leader in PER

Wilt: 30.1 ppg, 22.9 rpg, 4.4 apg on 54.0 %FG/51.1 %FT in 45.8 mpg
Shaq: 23.7 ppg, 10.9 rpg, 2.5 apg on 58.2 %FG/52.7 %FT in 34.7 mpg

Playoffs

Wilt: 1x scoring title, 8x rebounding title, 2x FG% title, 6x leader in PER
Shaq: 1x scoring title, 2x rebounding title, 1x FG% title, 4x leader in PER

Wilt: 22.5 ppg, 24.5 rpg, 4.2 apg on 52.2 %FG/46.5 %FT in 47.2 mpg
Shaq: 24.3 ppg, 11.6 rpg, 2.7 apg on 56.3 %FG/50.4 %FT in 37.5 mpg



Even in the regular season Shaq was no slouch. Led the league in scoring twice and in FG% ten times. Sure Wilt was more dominant but 20 times more? I don't buy it.

In the playoffs Shaq actually has an edge on Wilt. Now sure Wilt played a lot of playoffs games out of his prime (80 of his 160 games came from 1969-1973) but so did Shaq (80 of his 216 games came from 2004-2011). O'Neal also played a lot of playoff games when he was not in his prime any more.

Rebounding-wise a direct raw number comparison doesn't work. It's a given that Wilt is a better rebounder but TRB% comparison (20.2% for Wilt based on fpliii's work vs 17.8% for Shaq) makes it very unlikely that Wilt would outrebound Shaq more than 1-2 rebounds a game. Some people like to pretend like Shaq was Chris Bosh on the glass...

1-2 rebounds a game is quite a bit.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

"Weak era"...:roll: :roll: :roll:

In the 60's Chamberlain went up against the likes of Bellamy, Reed, Thurmond, and Russell in about HALF of his games.

Meanwhile, Shaq played in watered-down leagues of 29 teams, the vast majority with clowns and weak rebounding centers. He might face Hakeem, Ewing, D-Rob, and Mutombo in about 12 of his 82 games.
Do you actually think that the average 60s era player was better than players today? Answer honestly please. Even Wilt's biggest fan - CavsFTW said he doesn't believe this.

[zizozain]

Wilt >> Shaq

oh ... and

Hakeem Olajuwon, while playing 18 seasons to O'Neal's 19, had roughly a thousand more blocked shots than Shaq. That's ONE THOUSAND. With ONE LESS SEASON.

[LAZERUSS]

1-2 rebounds a game is quite a bit.

Shaq was getting outrebounded badly by the 6-7 Ben Wallace, and the 6-8 Dennis Rodman by 3-5 rpg in their post-season H2H's.

Chamberlain ANNIHILATED his peers in EVERY post-season series. And before Dankok8 mentions the '65 playoff series with the Royals, when PF Lucas outrebounded Wilt in their four game H2H series, by a 21.0 to 20.0 rpg...Chamberlain KILLED their CENTER on the glass.

Furthermore, when Lucas was playing CENTER in the '72 Finals...a 31 year old Lucas, playing 46 mpg, averaged 9.8 rpg. A 35 year old Chamberlain, playing 47 mpg, averaged 23.2 rpg!

Again, Wilt was, BY FAR, the greatest post-season rebounder in NBA history.

[DatAsh]

Wilt is easily the most athletically gifted basketball player to ever play. I don't really know other sports as well as I know basketball, but it's hard to imagine a more fortunate athlete in other sports.

7 foot 2 (by today's measurements)
GOAT strength by a mile
near GOAT stamina
near GOAT speed
near GOAT vertical

Those last three things are usually the forte of guards and forwards, not centers.

[LAZERUSS]

Do you actually think that the average 60s era player was better than players today? Answer honestly please. Even Wilt's biggest fan - CavsFTW said he doesn't believe this.

Today's players are MARGINALLY better, at best. They don't shoot FTs any better (hell, the NBA shot as well in '59, and far better in '74.) The centers are not even as tall...in the 60's they averaged 6-11. Even with today's INFLATED heights, they are no taller. Hell, the 6-11 Cousins, 6-11 Howard, 6-11 DeAndre Jordan, and 6-11 Andre Drummond are all only 6-9 1/2. Hassan Whiteside? 6-9 3/4. Even the "7-1" Spencer Hawes is only 6-10 1/2.

And do YOU honestly believe players like Drummond, Jordan, and others are more SKILLED than the majority of the centers in the Wilt-era? Guys like Bellamy, Reed, Cowens, Hayes, Gilmore, Thurmond, Lanier, and Kareem? :roll: :roll: :roll:

[LAZERUSS]

Wilt is easily the most athletically gifted basketball player to ever play. I don't really know other sports as well as I know basketball, but it's hard to imagine a more fortunate athlete in other sports.

7 foot 2 (by today's measurements)
GOAT strength by a mile
near GOAT stamina
near GOAT speed
near GOAT vertical

Those last three things are usually the forte of guards and forwards, not centers.

:applause: :applause: :applause:

[Eric Cartman]

Came here to say this.

Low key funny :lol

[RoundMoundOfReb]

And do YOU honestly believe players like Drummond, Jordan, and others are more SKILLED than the majority of the centers in the Wilt-era? Guys like Bellamy, Reed, Cowens, Hayes, Gilmore, Thurmond, Lanier, and Kareem? :roll: :roll: :roll:

No. While I do like to troll 60s stans a bit, I believe that BIG MEN from the 60s/70s (for the most part) would still be great players today. There is however, a MASSIVE gap in talent between guards/wings today and those from the 60s.

Remember the NBA's popularity in the 60s was MUCH smaller than it is today and thus very few people actually aspired to be NBA players was SIGNIFICANTLY smaller where as the amount of NBA roster spots was only about 3x smaller. Resulting in a generally weaker league. Bigs, however would still be drawn to basketball as it is really the only sport in which height is so valuable.

[LAZERUSS]

BTW, am I the only one who finds it comical when the "bashers" compare a Chamberlain, at ages 34-36, with a PRIME Shaq?

How about a 36 year old Shaq vs. a 36 year Wilt? Chamberlain LED the league in rebounding at 36, and then averaged 22.5 rpg in his 17 playoff games in a post-season NBA that averaged 50.6 rpg.

Shaq at age 36? 8.4 rpg in 30 mpg (and he was in such awful shape that he would have died of a heat attack had he played 43 mpg like Wilt did at age 36), and then, Shaq didn't even play in the playoffs, but a 35 year old Shaq averaged 9.2 rpg in 30 mpg, and a 37 year old Shaq averaged 5.5 rpg in 22 mpg. Given that, he likely would have been around 7 rpg in 26 mpg at age 36 in his post-season, had he played.

[LAZERUSS]

No. While I do like to troll 60s stans a bit, I believe that BIG MEN from the 60s/70s (for the most part) would still be great players today. There is however, a MASSIVE gap in talent between guards/wings today and those from the 60s.

Remember the NBA's popularity in the 60s was MUCH smaller than it is today and thus very few people actually aspired to be NBA players was SIGNIFICANTLY smaller where as the amount of NBA roster spots was only about 3x smaller. Resulting in a generally weaker league. Bigs, however would still be drawn to basketball as it is really the only sport in which height is so valuable.

Jerry Lucas was Kevin Love long before Love was.

How about Pistol Pete vs. Ricky Rubio?

Watch footage of Nate Archibald, Oscar, Goodrich (who at 6-1, would drive the lane against the centers of his era), even Fynn Robinson and Jon McGlocklin, who, along with Lucas, easily had 3pt range. And how about Monroe, Frazier, West, Havlicek, Sam, Jones, Hal Greer, et. al? West gets unduly ripped for his supposed dribbling weakness, but don't you find it fascinating that he was always considered a better player than Maravich?

The list is long.

The best players of the 60's and 70's would be among the best players in today's game. McAdoo was nearly as skilled a shooter as Durant, and a much better post player. If Durant can put up 30 ppg seasons, then McAdoo would have, too.

And how about the relative "unknowns" of the 60's and 70's? Example...Sidney Wicks...who was a 20+ ppg scorer before injuries. How good was Wicks? He absolutely destroyed Gilmore in the '70 NCAA's.

Or Tom Burleson, who was a full 7-2, and who battled Walton to a draw in the NCAAs. Watch footage of that game. The man was SKILLED. Yet, he was no more average in his injury-shortened NBA career.

Centers like Neal walk, who could put up unnoticed 20-12 seasons. Or Alvin Adams who was a brilliant passer from the high post.

How about Rick Barry, who averaged about the same in '67 as he did in '75?

Dr. J? He was a great college player in the 60's, and an MVP in the '80's.

Sorry, but there is nothing being accomplished today, that wasn't being done in the 60's and 70's. Well, I'll give you Korver, Dirk, and KG. Yes, there are great and unique players in every era. But again, the greats from any era would be just as great today.

[LAZERUSS]

BTW, a 36 year old Wilt (nearly 37), in the very last game of his NBA career...

23 points, on 9-16 shooting, with 21 rebounds..and, in 48 minutes.

Just another routine 20-20 game.

[LAZERUSS]

Another BTW...

I think a motivated Shaq COULD have been a much better rebounder. He outrebounded a peak Hakeem, and even outrebounded Mutumbo in a season in which Dikembe led the league in rpg.

And, I have Shaq at either #6 or #7 on my all-time list, alongside Duncan.

A peak Shaq was probably a top-4 all-time player.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Idk if Wilt could handle the physicality of today's NBA. Would he be strong enough?

[LAZERUSS]

Idk if Wilt could handle the physicality of today's NBA. Would he be strong enough?

The 6-8 Kevin Love is among the best rebounders in the game.

[Deuce Bigalow]

The 6-8 Kevin Love is among the best rebounders in the game.
Another guy with a higher TRB% than Wilt.

[LAZERUSS]

Another guy with a higher TRB% than Wilt.

Not a PRIME Chamberlain my friend.

Furthermore, it speaks volumes about the rebounders of this era when a 6-8 white, unathletic, and certainly nowhere near a strong, player can run away with the rpg title, and in a season in which he played 36 mpg, don't you think?

Oh, and Love can't block a shot for his life, and hasn't sniffed a 40 mpg season in his career. What do you think his TRB% would be playing 48 mpg?

[Deuce Bigalow]

Not a PRIME Chamberlain my friend.

Furthermore, it speaks volumes about the rebounders of this era when a 6-8 white, unathletic, and certainly nowhere near a strong, player can run away with the rpg title, and in a season in which he played 36 mpg, don't you think?

Oh, and Love can't block a shot for his life, and hasn't sniffed a 40 mpg season in his career. What do you think his TRB% would be playing 48 mpg?
No excuses

[LAZERUSS]

No excuses

For whom?

The centers of TODAY, who are routinely outrebounded by a 6-8 white, unathletic, scrawny, forward who shoots from the outside?

[Deuce Bigalow]

For whom?

The centers of TODAY, who are routinely outrebounded by a 6-8 white, unathletic, scrawny, forward who shoots from the outside?
Racism much Laz?

[LAZERUSS]

Racism much Laz?

Not at all. But how many great white rebounders have there been in the last 50 years?

Percentages don't seem to favor them, do they?

Off the top of my head...Lucas, Walton, Nater, and Love. And I'm sure I missed a few others, but the odds are overwhelmingly against them.

In any case, there is certainly nothing special in terms of physical ability with Love, is there?

And yet, he blew away Dwight Howard a few years ago in the rpg department.

And what is comical about this...is that the "Wilt-bashers" always claim that Wilt was facing small white centers in HIS era...which of course, was a blatant falsehood.

[LAZERUSS]

BTW, you never see the "Wilt-bashers" bring up Chamberlain's rebounding "decline" in the post-season. How come?

Oh wait...he dramatically ELEVATED his rebounding in the post-season. Furthermore, the better the opponent, the more dominant he was. He CRUSHED the likes of Bellamy, Reed, Thurmond, and Russell in the post-season.

Nor do they ever bring up his DEFENSE and SHOT-BLOCKING, which were staggering. Players like Kareem and Bellamy, two of the best offensive players of his era, consistently shot 10 percentage points below their regular season averages...and good offensive players like Thurmond and even a prime Russell shot horrifically against him.

[julizaver]

I think this answers it.

Do you think Shaq would have had a more dominating career had he stayed 300-315 his entire career?

Usually the big men bulked after their rookie season, and considering the fact that Shaq entered NBA at just 20 years of age (around 300 pounds). His ideal weight for him would be around 320.

He could have won 1 or 2 more MVP awards, probably moved closely to Kareem in the GOAT list.