Previous Era Paint-Camping vs. Today's Strong-Side Flood

[3ball]

http://s29.postimg.org/y32v1xeqv/overload.jpg


When Deandre abandons Mosgov on the near block and floods to the strongside, it leaves the weakside a man down defensively and therefore someone open (Love in the near-corner) - teams take advantage of the open man the same way they would find the open man on a double team.. Also, Deandre must flood to OUTSIDE of the paint on the strongside because of defensive 3 seconds, which prevents him from camping in the paint.

However, Deandre paint-camping under the rim would be more optimal - Deandre hasn't abandoned Mosgov, so the weakside isn't left a man down.. Griffin doesn't have to cover Mosgov and gets to stay on Love in the near-corners, so one one is open.. Meanwhile, Dandre's presence under the rim provides the best opportunity to defend against penetrators from the strongside.

It's been long proven that a big man's presence under the rim is the best possible position for him defensively - the only reason the strong-side flood exists is BECAUSE defenders can no longer paint-camp.

of course, in previous eras, defenders waited in the paint on penetration and could help from closer distances on the post because there was no spacing and paint-camping was legal.. all coaches all coaches in previous eras foolishly ran offenses that didn't shoot 3-pointers and positioned players close to the rim, which activated legal-paint camping, as stipulated in Rule 2b (http://nbahoopsonline.com/History/Leagues/NBA/Rules/Fouls.html) of the Illegal Defense Guidelines - this rule allowed defenders to paint-camp with no time restriction if their man was in the paint already, or within 3 feet of either side of the paint.

the legal paint-camping and no-spacing of previous eras, coupled with legal hand-checking and physicality, made it just as hard to score back then as today.
.

[24-Inch_Chrome]

No one cares. No one. Not a single person. Stop. Please.

[SouBeachTalents]

No one cares. No one. Not a single person. Stop. Please.

Seconded

[3ball]

Seconded
translation: there is no counter-argument

i'm fine with that... :cheers:

[Chadwin]

translation: there is no counter-argument

i'm fine with that... :cheers:

Why didn't everybody just pull all their guys out past the three point line to force an iso every single play?

[chips93]

illegal zone defense

[lilteapot]

OP's mother is literally cancer and diarrhea put together

[kshutts1]

http://s29.postimg.org/y32v1xeqv/overload.jpg


Flooding Deandre to the strongside (seen above) leaves the weakside a man down and vulnerable - teams easily take advantage of that.

Whereas letting Deandre paint-camp under the rim doesn't leave the weakside vulnerable - Griffin gets to stay on Love in the near-corner, while Dandre's presence under the rim provides the best opportunity to defend against penetrators from the strongside... He's closer to Mosgov this way too.

It's been long proven that a big man's presence under the rim is the best possible position for him defensively - the only reason the strong-side flood exists is BECAUSE defenders can no longer paint-camp.

of course, in previous eras, all coaches ran offenses that kept players closer to the rim, which allowed the paint-camping provision in Rule 2b (http://nbahoopsonline.com/History/Leagues/NBA/Rules/Fouls.html) of the Illegal Defense Guidelines to remain perpetually activated.

the legal paint-camping and no-spacing of previous eras, coupled with legal hand-checking and physicality, made it just as hard to score back then as today.
Over time, strategies change. Skills change. The game changes. We see this all the time, in every sport.

Doesn't make one era better or worse, just different.

I'm honestly not sure why some people refuse to grasp this fact.

[3ball]

Why didn't everybody just pull all their guys out past the three point line to force an iso every single play?


that's an idea that would occur to the most casual of fans, let alone previous era coaches.

but the reason it was never done is because it wouldn't have done anything - defenders could sag off their man when their man was behind the 3-point line.... including back into the paint for up to 2.9 seconds.

for example, if a weakside offensive player is behind the corner 3-point line, Rule 2a (http://nbahoopsonline.com/History/Leagues/NBA/Rules/Fouls.html) says his defender can sag back into the paint for up to 2.9 seconds:


2a. Weakside defenders may be within the "outside lane" with no time limit, and within the "Inside lane" for 2.9 seconds.



in substantially every instance, the defender can be in the lane for 2.9 seconds, except of course when their man is already in the paint or within 3 feet of either side, in which case Rule 2b (http://nbahoopsonline.com/History/Leagues/NBA/Rules/Fouls.html) allows them to paint-camp as long as they want.

[fpliii]

but the reason it was never done is because it wouldn't have done anything - defenders could sag off their man when their man was behind the 3-point line.... including back into the paint for up to 2.9 seconds.
So, you're claiming clear-out plays never happened?

[kshutts1]

So, you're claiming clear-out plays never happened?
Rather, I believe he's admitting the same thing Stu Jackson did.... players from other eras couldn't shoot like they can today.

Different game, different skills.

[KobesFinger]

Can somebody neg 3ball for me please? I've run out of negs today and he needs to stop making the same thread

[Kblaze8855]

Im getting tired of reading reported posts about you making essentially...the same topics over and over. They are annoying...and people are tired of them. People get banned for being less annoying to the general ISH population.

However....just because you are annoying....does not mean you aren't talking basketball. And I admit....talking it beyond the usual ___ or ___ shallow bullshit.

But....doing this over and over and over....makes it spamming.

I propose you make one topic.....call it what you wish. Update it 12 times a day for all I care. Talk all the shit you want about todays era....post your gifs...annoy whoever. I give you free reign...within that topic. I wont bother you...do as you please.

But stop making new ones.

If you cant do that im eventually gonna have to stop you. I don't want to....if I did I wouldn't even ask you to change. This is me...not stopping you...hoping you annoy people less by containing your ideas in one topic.

If you have something not at all related to then vs now rules and their application...make a new topic. Make all you want...on different issues.

On this issue...just...try to keep it contained.

You can now either...change slightly...and never hear from me again...or keep doing this...and we wont hear from you again.

Not for a while a least.

Up to you.

[24-Inch_Chrome]

Can somebody neg 3ball for me please? I've run out of negs today and he needs to stop making the same thread

:cheers:

[3ball]

If you have something not at all related to then vs now rules and their application...make a new topic. Make all you want...on different issues.

On this issue...just...try to keep it contained.


it's okay, looks like i'm done anyway.

i've made all my points and this time they aren't refutable, because i decided to base them 100% on the actual rules from the rulebook, and stick to the rules in any response to posters.

the rules themselves can't be refuted, so as long as i stick to them, i'm good.

[3ball]

Im getting tired of reading reported posts about you making essentially...the same topics over and over. They are annoying...and people are tired of them. People get banned for being less annoying to the general ISH population.


these are trolls themselves complaining because they don't like truth-bombs in my threads - if they know my threads contain these hurtful truthbombs, they don't have to click on the thread.

babies and whiners shouldn't be catered to.





However....just because you are annoying....does not mean you aren't talking basketball. And I admit....talking it beyond the usual ___ or ___ shallow bullshit.

But....doing this over and over and over....makes it spamming.


btw, this topic is completely new.

i've never made a thread comparing previous era paint-camping vs. today's strong-side flood.

[Droid101]

It is harder for single perimeter players to score with the current defensive rules than back in the illegal defense, clear out era.

The end.

[GimmeThat]

You can be an expert who begins,
Just to begin as an expert.

You can begin, begin
Or be the expert of not an expert.

But then
There's the experts whose been deemed begin
Or saw all experts, as those who just began.


-

a poem on "life's crisis"

[Chadwin]

that's an idea that would occur to the most casual of fans, let alone previous era coaches.

but the reason it was never done is because it wouldn't have done anything - defenders could sag off their man when their man was behind the 3-point line.... including back into the paint for up to 2.9 seconds.

for example, if a weakside offensive player is behind the corner 3-point line, Rule 2a (http://nbahoopsonline.com/History/Leagues/NBA/Rules/Fouls.html) says his defender can sag back into the paint for up to 2.9 seconds:


2a. Weakside defenders may be within the "outside lane" with no time limit, and within the "Inside lane" for 2.9 seconds.



in substantially every instance, the defender can be in the lane for 2.9 seconds, except of course when their man is already in the paint or within 3 feet of either side, in which case Rule 2b (http://nbahoopsonline.com/History/Leagues/NBA/Rules/Fouls.html) allows them to paint-camp as long as they want.

e. If offensive player is above the top of the circle, defender must come to a position above foul line.

That's from nba.com's rule history.

Iso all day.

[ralph_i_el]

Why didn't everybody just pull all their guys out past the three point line to force an iso every single play?

they did

[beastee]

Im getting tired of reading reported posts about you making essentially...the same topics over and over. They are annoying...and people are tired of them. People get banned for being less annoying to the general ISH population.

However....just because you are annoying....does not mean you aren't talking basketball. And I admit....talking it beyond the usual ___ or ___ shallow bullshit.

But....doing this over and over and over....makes it spamming.

I propose you make one topic.....call it what you wish. Update it 12 times a day for all I care. Talk all the shit you want about todays era....post your gifs...annoy whoever. I give you free reign...within that topic. I wont bother you...do as you please.

But stop making new ones.

If you cant do that im eventually gonna have to stop you. I don't want to....if I did I wouldn't even ask you to change. This is me...not stopping you...hoping you annoy people less by containing your ideas in one topic.

If you have something not at all related to then vs now rules and their application...make a new topic. Make all you want...on different issues.

On this issue...just...try to keep it contained.

You can now either...change slightly...and never hear from me again...or keep doing this...and we wont hear from you again.

Not for a while a least.

Up to you.

http://cdn.meme.am/instances/500x/55075267.jpg

[3ball]

e. If offensive player is above the top of the circle, defender must come to a position above foul line.

That's from nba.com's rule history.

Iso all day.


All coaches in previous eras ran offenses that positioned players close to the rim, which activated Rule 2b (http://nbahoopsonline.com/History/Leagues/NBA/Rules/Fouls.html) of the Illegal Defense Guidelines (same as rule 'b' in nba.com rule history) and enabled legal paint-camping.

[ralph_i_el]

All coaches in previous eras ran offenses that positioned players close to the rim, which activated Rule 2b (http://nbahoopsonline.com/History/Leagues/NBA/Rules/Fouls.html) of the Illegal Defense Guidelines (same as rule 'b' in nba.com rule history) and enabled legal paint-camping.

Don Nelson exploited the rule on offense.

plus

With illegal D you could force your opponent into basically playing you 2 on 2 on one side of the court

[Demon Lizard]

This is exciting and new information. Thanks 3Ball. My life is now complete.

[ShawkFactory]

After going through your last 30 or so topics, reading them intently and taking extensive notes, I've come to the realization that the 90s were indeed a better time.

I've been lurking for a while and I have to say I ignore everything else except for your repetitive ramblings. The visual stimulation you provide is too good to ignore. God bless you, Michael Jordan, and anyone who played during his time.

[3ball]

Rather, I believe he's admitting the same thing Stu Jackson did.... players from other eras couldn't shoot like they can today.


it doesn't matter WHY players were closer to the basket in previous eras - whether it's player's lack of shooting, or coaching incompetence by not spreading the floor... it doesn't matter... it only matters that offensive players WERE closer to the basket.

so anyone playing back then, including today's player transported back to a previous era, would play in an offense where the positioning of teammates close to the rim and lack of floor-spreading activated legal paint-camping, as stipulated in Rule 2b (http://nbahoopsonline.com/History/Leagues/NBA/Rules/Fouls.html) of the Illegal Defense Guidelines.

legal paint camping and no-spacing, coupled with legal hand-checking and physicality designed to make penetration easier (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=366941), made it just as hard to score in previous eras as today.

[ralph_i_el]

it doesn't matter WHY players were closer to the basket in previous eras - whether it's player's lack of shooting, or coaching incompetence by not spreading the floor... it doesn't matter... it only matters that offensive players WERE closer to the basket.

so anyone playing back then, including today's player transported back to a previous era, would play in an offense where the positioning of teammates close to the rim and lack of floor-spreading activated legal paint-camping, as stipulated in Rule 2b (http://nbahoopsonline.com/History/Leagues/NBA/Rules/Fouls.html) of the Illegal Defense Guidelines.

legal paint camping and no-spacing, coupled with legal hand-checking and physicality designed to make penetration easier (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=366941), made it just as hard to score in previous eras as today.

now you're literally posting the same thing in two threads at the exact same time:facepalm bring in the ban hammer

[oarabbus]

these are trolls themselves complaining because they don't like truth-bombs in my threads - if they know my threads contain these hurtful truthbombs, they don't have to click on the thread.

babies and whiners shouldn't be catered to.



btw, this topic is completely new.

i've never made a thread comparing previous era paint-camping vs. today's strong-side flood.


This is truly some sociopathic me-against-the-world shit

ISH is a board of trolls with one sane member: 3ball

Didn't y'all know?

[ralph_i_el]

This is truly some sociopathic me-against-the-world shit

ISH is a board of trolls with one sane member: 3ball

Didn't y'all know?

wait.....Could 3ball's real identity be....EUROLEAGUE?!?!?!

EDIT: 5000 POSTS WOOT!

[You Cant Ban Me]

3 ball kicking that knowledge :cheers:

[kshutts1]

it doesn't matter WHY players were closer to the basket in previous eras - whether it's player's lack of shooting, or coaching incompetence by not spreading the floor... it doesn't matter... it only matters that offensive players WERE closer to the basket.

so anyone playing back then, including today's player transported back to a previous era, would play in an offense where the positioning of teammates close to the rim and lack of floor-spreading activated legal paint-camping, as stipulated in Rule 2b (http://nbahoopsonline.com/History/Leagues/NBA/Rules/Fouls.html) of the Illegal Defense Guidelines.

legal paint camping and no-spacing, coupled with legal hand-checking and physicality designed to make penetration easier (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=366941), made it just as hard to score in previous eras as today.
But it does matter why. Context always matters.

[swagga]

ip ban him. even euroleague is better :eek:

http://theoriginalwinger.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/gladiator-thumbsdown.jpg

[3ball]

http://s29.postimg.org/y32v1xeqv/overload.jpg


Flooding Deandre to the strongside (seen above) leaves the weakside a man down and vulnerable - teams easily take advantage of that.

Whereas letting Deandre paint-camp under the rim doesn't leave the weakside vulnerable - Griffin gets to stay on Love in the near-corner, while Dandre's presence under the rim provides the best opportunity to defend against penetrators from the strongside... He's closer to Mosgov this way too.

It's been long proven that a big man's presence under the rim is the best possible position for him defensively - the only reason the strong-side flood exists is BECAUSE defenders can no longer paint-camp.


Regardless of the current defensive schemes, dribble-penetration is more prevalent today than any other time in history - penetration has become a built-in, automatic component of the game due to spacing-inspired wider lanes and also the hand-check ban designed to make penetration easier (http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/04/09/stujackson/index.html).

A simple high screen or isolation play is all that's needed to take advantage of the new rules banning perimeter physicality and get in the lane.. Wings like Harden and Kobe live off these plays, along with all point guards.. MJ would be no different.

But in reality, MJ was an off-ball player and didn't rely on dribble-penetration to get in the lane anyway.. Typically, fans and media mistakenly think Jordan employed the same style as Harden, or some other ball-dominant player that the strong side flood is designed for.

But MJ usually scored off of catch-and-go's (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10862372&postcount=18)... He or Pippen's off-ball game on the weakside would be a nightmare for a strong-side flood.

Jordan's natural game is built for spacing, especially as an off-ball player - keep in mind, on a strong side flood, the paint is WIDE-OPEN... that benefits off-ball players that can beat defenders to the open paint (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10861834&postcount=13).. Also, the standard tactic against a strong-side flood is to move the ball, so players who act quickly on the catch when the ball is swung (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10995238&postcount=18) will take the best advantage of a shifting, spaced-out defense.

The question becomes - would MJ use his off-ball game to take advantage of the spacing and easier ball movement, or his primary ballhandler game to take advantage of the wider driving lanes and less physical resistance against penetration?.. It's quite possible he'd decide to rely more on his primary ballhandler game just like everyone else today, although he would probably play off-ball a lot as well so he could still win at the highest level.

One thing we DO know is that MJ's paint and at-rim percentages would be higher just like everyone else in today's game due to the spacing and also rule changes designed to open up the middle of the floor.

This is different from previous eras, when defenders waited in the paint on penetration and could help from closer distances on the post because there was no spacing and paint-camping was legal.. all coaches all coaches in previous eras foolishly ran offenses that positioned players close to the rim, which activated legal-paint camping, as stipulated in Rule 2b (http://nbahoopsonline.com/History/Leagues/NBA/Rules/Fouls.html) of the Illegal Defense Guidelines - this rule allowed defenders to paint-camp with no time restriction if their man was in the paint already, or within 3 feet of either side of the paint.

the legal paint-camping and no-spacing of previous eras, coupled with legal hand-checking and physicality, made it just as hard to score back then as today.