Why do people think point guards aren't supposed to shoot?

[The Iron Sheik]

history itself rebukes this idea. why would it make sense for a point guard to just sit there and pass all day? on most teams, a point guard has the ball in his hands at least 70% of the time. it's such an advantage for that guy to be able to score when need be.

maybe it started when westbrook and rose really started to break out and people started calling them "shooting guards in a point guard's body" only because they took the most shots on their respective teams. or maybe it started when ai was beasting and people nowadays think he was playing point in like 2001, just coming up the court chucking shots like point guards in 2k11 crew mode (we need that back in 2k16 btw).

idk when it started, but it's silly. magic johnson, considered to be the greatest pg ever by many (including myself) was a bonafide scorer. the man had multiple games and playoff series dropping over 40 points. the early 90s lakers offense (post showtime when it was mainly magic, worthy and (good) role players) was predicated on magic posting up and drawing doubles.

oscar robertson was averaging 30 throughout his first 5-6 seasons.

gary payton was winning poty when he was shooting almost 30 times a game.

jason kidd was getting tons of praise in the '02 playoffs (even more than the regular season) when his assists were down and his field goal attempts and points were up.

kevin johnson set a playoff record for most consecutive free throws made in a game

bob cousy averaged almost 19fga per game in the playoffs despite shooting below 40%. was he just a chucker? a shooting guard and not a point guard?

tl;dr point guards are supposed to score.

[Fire Colangelo]

It's not that point guards aren't supposed to score. They're supposed to look for teammates first while also being a scoring threat.

Magic Johnson always looked to set up his teammates first, same with Kidd.

With Westbrook, he would rather shoot a contested jumper than pass to a wide open KD.

Iverson was drafted to a team that had mediocre scoring talent, so he was asked to score a lot, that was his role. He got too comfortable in his role later on in his career that he was unable to adjust to play a passing role. Thats when the "chucker" label started.

[The Iron Sheik]

It's not that point guards aren't supposed to score. They're supposed to look for teammates first while also being a scoring threat.

Magic Johnson always looked to set up his teammates first, same with Kidd.

With Westbrook, he would rather shoot a contested jumper than pass to a wide open KD.

Iverson was drafted to a team that had mediocre scoring talent, so he was asked to score a lot, that was his role. He got too comfortable in his role later on in his career that he was unable to adjust to play a passing role. Thats when the "chucker" label started.

how is a point guard who leads his team in scoring, looking to set others up first all the time? the logic i see on here is that if a point guard takes more than 10 shots or averages 20 a game he's a chucker and not a real point guard. that's what i'm arguing against.

besides, if you're the best scoring option on your team, why shouldn't you get to shoot first even if you're a pg? when a pg runs a play, it doesn't just have to be for someone else. many times a play will be designed for the pg himself to get a shot.

in the case with westbrook, a very fair criticism is that he lacks point guard skills such as clock management/recognition, tempo (he's always on 110% no matter what) or decision making. but those have nothing to do with how much he shoots. many times, because of scott brooks' high school offense (which is an insult to high school) he's forced to hurry up and make something happen while the shot clock dwindles down from him waiting on durant to stop getting pushed out to the 3pt line. there are more instances of that happening (especially at the end of close games) then kd standing wide open with no one near him and westbrook just deciding to go 1 on 5 for no reason.

it's just like people look at a point guard's field goal attempt number's to judge whether or not he's a "real" point guard, which is asinine.

[Fire Colangelo]

how is a point guard who leads his team in scoring, looking to set others up first all the time? the logic i see on here is that if a point guard takes more than 10 shots or averages 20 a game he's a chucker and not a real point guard. that's what i'm arguing against.

besides, if you're the best scoring option on your team, why shouldn't you get to shoot first even if you're a pg? when a pg runs a play, it doesn't just have to be for someone else. many times a play will be designed for the pg himself to get a shot.

in the case with westbrook, a very fair criticism is that he lacks point guard skills such as clock management/recognition, tempo (he's always on 110% no matter what) or decision making. but those have nothing to do with how much he shoots. many times, because of scott brooks' high school offense (which is an insult to high school) he's forced to hurry up and make something happen while the shot clock dwindles down from him waiting on durant to stop getting pushed out to the 3pt line. there are more instances of that happening (especially at the end of close games) then kd standing wide open with no one near him and westbrook just deciding to go 1 on 5 for no reason.

it's just like people look at a point guard's field goal attempt number's to judge whether or not he's a "real" point guard, which is asinine.

Most times the PG isn't the best scoring threat on the team though....

Westbrook has more FGA than Durant...... when Durant is the superior scorer.

[Graviton]

Most times the PG isn't the best scoring threat on the team though....

Westbrook has more FGA than Durant...... when Durant is the superior scorer.
Usually Durant always leads the team in FGA. This year he has missed half the games and when he did play was lot of times rusty and on minute restriction, hence why Westbrook has more shot attempts.

Use your head before posting please.

[Young X]

It's not just about passing/shooting, PG's are supposed to look for the best shot for their team on most possessions.

Alot of the "PG's" now look for their own shot regardless of how good/bad it is instead of looking for high percentage shots for the team (whether it's them shooting, setting up teammates, recognizing mismatches, etc.). This isn't good PG play IMO.

PG's are too small to be efficient volume scorers, I'd much rather a PG that generally looks for higher % shots while also being able to create his own shot - much more unselfish, efficient basketball. Leave the volume shooting to the SG's.

[tgan3]

well because the point guard job is to run plays, be the floor general and to set up their players running off-ball screens, drive and dish or play pick n roll. This is all withing a team concept.

A point guard who only looks to score is incredibly easy to read and will be detrimental to the team.

[Fire Colangelo]

Usually Durant always leads the team in FGA. This year he has missed half the games and when he did play was lot of times rusty and on minute restriction, hence why Westbrook has more shot attempts.

Use your head before posting please.

So you don't think Westbrook shoots a little too much? So you don't think he should look for Durant more?

It's not just this season. Durant only had like 1-2 more FGA than Westbrook last season, and he was the best scorer, the MVP, the best player in the league.

[kennethgriffin]

point guards have a responsibility to get the ball to the other 4 guys on the floor

if hes shooting first. then those other guys havent touched the ball yet

in a smart offense you work for the best shot. so if the point guard is shooting. then he should have passed atleast one time on that possession and eventually gotten it back

[The Iron Sheik]

So you don't think Westbrook shoots a little too much? So you don't think he should look for Durant more?

It's not just this season. Durant only had like 1-2 more FGA than Westbrook last season, and he was the best scorer, the MVP, the best player in the league.

westbrook is supposed to draw up the offense? look at who calls plays, and the types of plays he calls, and you'll find the issue.

it's like people want kevin durant to just iso and shoot 25 times a game while everyone else does nothing. i'm not saying that westbrook doesn't make mistakes, but his amount of field goals isn't a problem, nor does it make him "not a point guard".

[The Iron Sheik]

point guards have a responsibility to get the ball to the other 4 guys on the floor

if hes shooting first. then those other guys havent touched the ball yet

in a smart offense you work for the best shot. so if the point guard is shooting. then he should have passed atleast one time on that possession and eventually gotten it back

a point guard can't bring the ball down, run a ucla cut, get the ball back and take a shot? that's wrong if he does that and it results in him taking more shots than anyone else?

why can't the best shot be for the point guard when he's the best scorer on the team?


It's not just about passing/shooting, PG's are supposed to look for the best shot for their team on most possessions.

Alot of the "PG's" now look for their own shot regardless of how good/bad it is instead of looking for high percentage shots for the team (whether it's them shooting, setting up teammates, recognizing mismatches, etc.). This isn't good PG play IMO.

PG's are too small to be efficient volume scorers, I'd much rather a PG that generally looks for higher % shots while also being able to create his own shot - much more unselfish, efficient basketball. Leave the volume shooting to the SG's.

the point guard can be the recipient of a pass for a shot or have a mismatch. why is it that people think every shot a point guard takes is bad?

[Graviton]

So you don't think Westbrook shoots a little too much? So you don't think he should look for Durant more?

It's not just this season. Durant only had like 1-2 more FGA than Westbrook last season, and he was the best scorer, the MVP, the best player in the league.
You obviously don't watch OKC much.

It's literally Scott Brooks plan, Durant and Westbrook are SUPPOSED to take 20 shots a game and carry the team. In every interview he says the same shit, "We want Russell to stay aggressive and keep attacking". It's his offensive gameplan.

It's not Westbrook's fault Durant can't get open against physical defenders, 5-10 seconds are wasted by Russ standing at 3 point line waiting for Durant to shake Tony Allen so he can pass to him. It's not as easy as "looking for Durant more", the opposing team isn't ****ing retarded, they KNOW Westbrook will be looking for Durant and they cover the passing lanes and WAIT for it. OKC isn't magically going to be better just because Durant takes couple extra shots.

[knicksman]

its one thing to be a scoring threat but its another when you force the issue. Because it is easier to stop a player who has the ball in his hands than an off the ball player, So if youre scoring as a pg, then that means you just care about stats and not wins. Thats why players like them are low impact players.

[knicksman]

Usually Durant always leads the team in FGA. This year he has missed half the games and when he did play was lot of times rusty and on minute restriction, hence why Westbrook has more shot attempts.

Use your head before posting please.

LOL did you watch last season? Esp when durant is playing insane, then westbrook came back and attempts more than durant. Thats just selfishness of the highest level.

[Jef]

the "real pg" argument is archaic.

positions in the modern nba are blurred, and will only get blurrier.

face it - there are 3 positions now: guard, forward, and center. and you could even argue that there are only now roles instead of positions: guard, wing, and big man.

the bottom line is that we are moving into an era where the athletes are so elite that teams are going to have 2 guys playing guard who are both 6'3-6'4 and both handle and both work off the ball, 2 guys who are 6'7'-6'9 who are on the wings, and a dude who is 6'10-7'0. that's it, period. shit - in 20 years every team will e five guys that are all 6'8. basically, lebrons without the talent or bball iq.

i loved watch bob cousy on league pass on my ****ing iPad 8, but that shit isn't coming back. the game has evolved, like it or not.

people who says "westbrook isn't a point guard," etc etc etc are just holding onto hope that their perennial 4 seed team with a dude averaging 9 points and 7 assists running the show might beat the team without the "true point guard" who is averaging 25 points (and 7.1 assists).

[The Iron Sheik]

its one thing to be a scoring threat but its another when you force the issue. Because it is easier to stop a player who has the ball in his hands than an off the ball player, So if youre scoring as a pg, then that means you just care about stats and not wins. Thats why players like them are low impact players.

this makes no sense. you talk as if someone can't be denied the ball. looking at okc in particular, everyone claims that the problem is that westbrook doesn't get the ball to durant. it would seem that in this case it's pretty easy to stop durant. how can a guy who's just standing around, not doing shit be harder to stop than the guy who has the damn ball?

your last 2 sentences are disrespectful to every great pg ever and show that you probably don't really watch basketball

[Fire Colangelo]

You obviously don't watch OKC much.

It's literally Scott Brooks plan, Durant and Westbrook are SUPPOSED to take 20 shots a game and carry the team. In every interview he says the same shit, "We want Russell to stay aggressive and keep attacking". It's his offensive gameplan.

It's not Westbrook's fault Durant can't get open against physical defenders, 5-10 seconds are wasted by Russ standing at 3 point line waiting for Durant to shake Tony Allen so he can pass to him. It's not as easy as "looking for Durant more", the opposing team isn't ****ing retarded, they KNOW Westbrook will be looking for Durant and they cover the passing lanes and WAIT for it. OKC isn't magically going to be better just because Durant takes couple extra shots.

Because there's a Tony Allen on every team in the league...

Scott Brooks is dumb as ****, but it's not just KD. So many times Westbrook gets doubled off a drive but just doesn't have the court vision to make the pass to an open man.

I've watched enough OKC games to see Westbrook take a few stupid shots. Sometimes they go in, some times they don't.

[Young X]

the point guard can be the recipient of a pass for a shot or have a mismatch. why is it that people think every shot a point guard takes is bad?Who thinks every shot a PG takes is bad? It's the putting high volume shooting regardless of shot quality (chucking) over getting higher percentage shots for the team that people have a problem with.

[Graviton]

LOL did you watch last season? Esp when durant is playing insane, then westbrook came back and attempts more than durant. Thats just selfishness of the highest level.
You mean last season when he came back and took a whooping 17 shots a game compared to Durant's 21? Yea definitely. Is anything you say backed up by facts or just your delusions. :lol

[The Iron Sheik]

Who thinks every shot a PG takes is bad? It's the putting high volume shooting regardless of shot quality (chucking) over getting higher percentage shots for the team that people have a problem with.

how are you so certain that if a point guard takes a lot of shots they're all going to be bad shots that hurt the team? if it's just volume, then that means when any scorer misses more than he makes (which is all but a handful) that he's hurting his team. is that what you're suggesting?

a point guard can run plays all day and they result in him taking 20 shots a game. when rose was shooting 20 times a game was he just ignoring his coach and doing whatever he wanted?

[Graviton]

Because there's a Tony Allen on every team in the league...

Scott Brooks is dumb as ****, but it's not just KD. So many times Westbrook gets doubled off a drive but just doesn't have the court vision to make the pass to an open man.

I've watched enough OKC games to see Westbrook take a few stupid shots. Sometimes they go in, some times they don't.
If it's not Tony Allen it's Kawhi. Every contender has that type of "glue guy" nowadays. Durant struggles against them, he can't get free and it's not on Westbrook.

The "open man" is usually Andre Roberson or Perkins, and there is a reason they are open. Russ finds Ibaka/Durant when he has to, rest of the time I trust a contested jumper by Westbrook over an open shot by half the scrubs on that team.

Everyone takes a few stupid shots, even Durant. Nobody plays perfectly, those "few" instances don't overshadow the huge impact such players have majority of the time.

[knicksman]

this makes no sense. you talk as if someone can't be denied the ball. looking at okc in particular, everyone claims that the problem is that westbrook doesn't get the ball to durant. it would seem that in this case it's pretty easy to stop durant. how can a guy who's just standing around, not doing shit be harder to stop than the guy who has the damn ball?

your last 2 sentences are disrespectful to every great pg ever and show that you probably don't really watch basketball

LOL bro if you play this game, you would realize that its easier to score playing off the ball than with the ball. Your point is like saying QBs should score instead of pass. Luckily there are only 5 players in basketball so you could still go 1 on 5 but even the most athletic player in lebron gets stopped in the finals playing that way, how much more for smaller players like westbrook and rose. Theres a reason why they are so inefficient and their impact is less compared to pure pgs. In fact I couldnt find a score first pg winning a ring as the man.

[The Iron Sheik]

LOL bro if you play this game, you would realize that its easier to score playing off the ball than with the ball. Your point is like saying QBs should score instead of pass. Luckily there are only 5 players in basketball so you could still go 1 on 5 but even the most athletic player in lebron gets stopped in the finals playing that way, how much more for smaller players like westbrook and rose. Theres a reason why they are so inefficient and their impact is less compared to pure pgs. In fact I couldnt find a score first pg winning a ring as the man.

alright, let's do it this way:

define "pure pg"

[knicksman]

You mean last season when he came back and took a whooping 17 shots a game compared to Durant's 21? Yea definitely. Is anything you say backed up by facts or just your delusions. :lol

ohhh so youre using per game now instead of per36. Nice try bro

[navy]

ohhh so youre using per game now instead of per36. Nice try bro
Dafuq....

[knicksman]

alright, let's do it this way:

define "pure pg"

usually players who have >20ppg and 10+apg.

[Graviton]

ohhh so youre using per game now instead of per36. Nice try bro
Yes, I am using reality instead of fictional "what if" scenarios. :roll:

Are you ****ing insane?

[RoundMoundOfReb]

usually players who have >20ppg and 10+apg.


You realize that ">20ppg" means MORE than 20 PPG, right?

[Jef]

usually players who have >20ppg and 10+apg.

this post alone:

a) is "correct"
b) illustrates the sheer idiocy of this argument

we now define positions by stats - thanks, coaches across America! thanks for brainwashing idiots into now worshipping "PGs" who throw the ball to the wing for an iso, pick up an "assist," and then be labeled the next stockton because someone checks the box score and says "oh holy hell Scott Johnson got 9 assists, babe! he also only scored 7 points! what a ****ing american point guard! even made me forget about Osa- I MEAN Obama for 4 minutes LOLOLOL!"

**** anyone who argues over this in this day in age. the game has changed. GOATbrook, curry, lillard, and kyrie own your soul, and your team sucks if you don't have someone like them.

[Young X]

how are you so certain that if a point guard takes a lot of shots they're all going to be bad shots that hurt the team? if it's just volume, then that means when any scorer misses more than he makes (which is all but a handful) that he's hurting his team. is that what you're suggesting?

a point guard can run plays all day and they result in him taking 20 shots a game. when rose was shooting 20 times a game was he just ignoring his coach and doing whatever he wanted?Never said they would be all be bad shots that hurt teams. I just said PG's that shoot regardless of shot quality is what people have a problem with. It's not just shooting, it's the KIND of shots they take.

[Graviton]

And "true PFs" are probably bigs that average below 20PPG but above 10RPG, so Dirk is definitely not a real PF. :oldlol:

[The Iron Sheik]

Never said they would be all be bad shots that hurt teams. I just said PG's that shoot regardless of shot quality is what people have a problem with. It's not just shooting, it's the KIND of shots they take.

that's any player though.

and if a player is expected to shoot a lot, not every shot will be a perfect, clean look. it's impossible to take all a+ quality shots when you're the focus of the defense and taking 20 shots per game

[Genaro]

With Westbrook, he would rather shoot a contested jumper than pass to a wide open KD.
You must be high. When the fuvk is Durant wide open in a game? :biggums:

[RoundMoundOfReb]

And "true PFs" are probably bigs that average below 20PPG but above 10RPG, so Dirk is definitely not a real PF. :oldlol:

Magic Johnson was not a true PG in 1987...his best season :lol

[Young X]

that's any player though.No it's worse with PG's because not only are they the main ballhandlers responsible for running the offense, but they're too small and far away from the basket to convert at the same rate as the other positions.

[knicksman]

Why are people so mad? Maybe if iverson could just win more than 1 50+ win season in his career. Or marbury wasnt considered a cancer. Westbrook making his team worse last season:oldlol: .Then maybe we could say that these guys are valuable. But compare that to their pure pg counterpart. Nash, Kidd, KJ, cp3, stockton. I couldnt count how many 50+ win teams they have throughout their careers. Now include magic and isiah and its not even close. LOL

[Fire Colangelo]

If it's not Tony Allen it's Kawhi. Every contender has that type of "glue guy" nowadays. Durant struggles against them, he can't get free and it's not on Westbrook.

The "open man" is usually Andre Roberson or Perkins, and there is a reason they are open. Russ finds Ibaka/Durant when he has to, rest of the time I trust a contested jumper by Westbrook over an open shot by half the scrubs on that team.

Everyone takes a few stupid shots, even Durant. Nobody plays perfectly, those "few" instances don't overshadow the huge impact such players have majority of the time.

There are only like 4-5 contenders in the league, what about the other 25 teams? Who does the Hawks have? Wizards? Cavs? You know LeBron isn't gonna spend energy denying Durant off ball.

I'm not saying Westbrook doesn't have a huge impact on the Thunder, he certainly does, and he's playing out of his mind this year. I'm just saying he could become a better player if he can learn to control the tempo a little bit better, work a little on his shot selection, and turn the ball over a little less.

[Graviton]

There are only like 4-5 contenders in the league, what about the other 25 teams? Who does the Hawks have? Wizards? Cavs? You know LeBron isn't gonna spend energy denying Durant off ball.

I'm not saying Westbrook doesn't have a huge impact on the Thunder, he certainly does, and he's playing out of his mind this year. I'm just saying he could become a better player if he can learn to control the tempo a little bit better, work a little on his shot selection, and turn the ball over a little less.
I agree, but he is not gonna figure it out on his own, he needs a mentor, a coach that will mold him into such a player. Like what Pop did to Tony Parker after years of yelling. Westbrook plays with his instincts and emotion, he is still "raw" in my book, still far off from his potential peak.

If you saw him in Olympics/FIBA, he plays completely differently under Coach K. More of an off-ball cutter and defensive disruptor role, like their energizer bunny of the bench. The way he plays for OKC is a reflection of what Brooks wanted, who knows how he would fair with a real coach.

[SamuraiSWISH]

It's not just about passing/shooting, PG's are supposed to look for the best shot for their team on most possessions.

Alot of the "PG's" now look for their own shot regardless of how good/bad it is instead of looking for high percentage shots for the team (whether it's them shooting, setting up teammates, recognizing mismatches, etc.). This isn't good PG play IMO.

PG's are too small to be efficient volume scorers, I'd much rather a PG that generally looks for higher % shots while also being able to create his own shot - much more unselfish, efficient basketball. Leave the volume shooting to the SG's.
The quarterback of the basketball team.

You don't see QBs throwing to themselves, or running all the TDs in ... yes the best QBs have the versatility to be a threat to run. Same way the best PGs are the ones who distribute first, playing smart, controlled basketball. Getting teammates involved, surveying the defense. But have the ability to score if need be.

You just described Chris Paul, btw.

I think Young X, myself, brandonislegend, and select few others on this site really understand what it means to be a great PG. I can tell the people who hype up Westbrook have no clue about what you should want out of that position.

[I.R.Beast]

It's not that point guards aren't supposed to score. They're supposed to look for teammates first while also being a scoring threat.

Magic Johnson always looked to set up his teammates first, same with Kidd.

With Westbrook, he would rather shoot a contested jumper than pass to a wide open KD.

Iverson was drafted to a team that had mediocre scoring talent, so he was asked to score a lot, that was his role. He got too comfortable in his role later on in his career that he was unable to adjust to play a passing role. Thats when the "chucker" label started.


8 assists a game roughly...set KD up multipe times game for open shots...wuit with the lies.

[I.R.Beast]

The quarterback of the basketball team.

You don't see QBs throwing to themselves, or running all the TDs in ... yes the best QBs have the versatility to be a threat to run. Same way the best PGs are the ones who distribute first, playing smart, controlled basketball. Getting teammates involved, surveying the defense. But have the ability to score if need be.

You just described Chris Paul, btw.

I think Young X, myself, brandonislegend, and select few others on this site really understand what it means to be a great PG. I can tell the people who hype up Westbrook have no clue about what you should want out of that position.

Comparing football and basketball is dumb... If my PG is my best scoring option then i want him to be the first option. Players that can score at a high rate deferring most of the time to inferior players for the sake of being a "true pg" is asinine ... Where has that ever gotten Chris Paul?...there is a reason scoring PGs run the league,,and that is because they are most effective, more dangerous and more conducive to winning games. Ultimately a pass first PG is only as good as his teammates on any given night.

[I.R.Beast]

There are only like 4-5 contenders in the league, what about the other 25 teams? Who does the Hawks have? Wizards? Cavs? You know LeBron isn't gonna spend energy denying Durant off ball.

I'm not saying Westbrook doesn't have a huge impact on the Thunder, he certainly does, and he's playing out of his mind this year. I'm just saying he could become a better player if he can learn to control the tempo a little bit better, work a little on his shot selection, and turn the ball over a little less.

every payer has weaknesses..curry jacks up a bunch of contest deep 3s and turns the ball over a high clip. However , Westbrook and CUrry are still the 2 best PGs in the NBA... they can be like cp3 and rarely if ever turn the ball over, but be so passive to the point where it's like he isnt in the game at times.

[KNOW1EDGE]

There are just different kinds of point guards.

I prefer a well rounded pg like Chris Paul over an athletic freak like Westbrook.

I feel that CP3 makes those around him better while sacrificing his own statistics. Westbrook is the complete opposite as he does not make his teammates much better but his stats are better.

One team is in the playoffs and one is not.

And some posters have said "scoring pgs run the league"
Yeah, they may score a lot of points and be fun to watch, that's cool.
But when was the last time a scoring pg led his team to a championship, you know, what actually matters?

Look at the teams to win a ring in the last 10-15 years and show me a scoring pg on that team. I can't think of one.

You got Rondo, Chalmers, Tony Parker, Jason Kidd w/the Mavs.

[I.R.Beast]

Most times the PG isn't the best scoring threat on the team though....

Westbrook has more FGA than Durant...... when Durant is the superior scorer.


I think that is more so due to Durant missing so manny games this year and playing light minutes in his return than anything else.. Durant has led the thunder in attempts every other year. Durant will gradually be the leading shot take for the thunder as the season winds down and he gets his legs back under him fully.

[I.R.Beast]

There are just different kinds of point guards.

I prefer a well rounded pg like Chris Paul over an athletic freak like Westbrook.

I feel that CP3 makes those around him better while sacrificing his own statistics. Westbrook is the complete opposite as he does not make his teammates much better but his stats are better.

One team is in the playoffs and one is not.
WHo has chris paul ever made better?.. That term is extremely loaded...you cant make players better by just passing the ball to them for open jumpers... Open shots doesnt make players better...its just an open shot... Who has progressed as a player because of Chris Paul?.... If you prefer Chris Paul over westbrook then you just don't know basketball and what it's about. When the clippers are struggling and getting busted up and Cp3 is still deferring to Matt Barnes he is causing his team the game... Cp3 is too passive and doesnt have half the impact on a game as westbrook does with the pressure he puts on opposing defenses and PGs on defense...

[I.R.Beast]

There are just different kinds of point guards.

I prefer a well rounded pg like Chris Paul over an athletic freak like Westbrook.

I feel that CP3 makes those around him better while sacrificing his own statistics. Westbrook is the complete opposite as he does not make his teammates much better but his stats are better.

One team is in the playoffs and one is not.

And some posters have said "scoring pgs run the league"
Yeah, they may score a lot of points and be fun to watch, that's cool.
But when was the last time a scoring pg led his team to a championship, you know, what actually matters?

Look at the teams to win a ring in the last 10-15 years and show me a scoring pg on that team. I can't think of one.

You got Rondo, Chalmers, Tony Parker, Jason Kidd w/the Mavs.

My Celtics offense ran through the big 3 that year not rondo.. Tony Parker is a score first PG, Jason kidd was over the hill, and was more so a defender and 3pt shooter than sole facilitator of the offense.. Chalmers is a scoring pg of the role player variety certainly a "true pg".... the last pass first PG to win a title that actually had a central role in running offense was magic johnson...

[KNOW1EDGE]

Can you name a scoring pg in the last 15 years who led his team to a championship?

That's the point, it almost never happens. So cool, if you want lots of points and cool dunks then fine. If u think that means you know basketball better than me, fine.

[navy]

Can you name a scoring pg in the last 15 years who led his team to a championship?

That's the point, it almost never happens. So cool, if you want lots of points and cool dunks then fine. If u think that means you know basketball better than me, fine.
Can you name a pass first point guard who led his team to a championship the last 15 years?

[I.R.Beast]

Can you name a scoring pg in the last 15 years who led his team to a championship?

That's the point, it almost never happens. So cool, if you want lots of points and cool dunks then fine. If u think that means you know basketball better than me, fine.
Parker, Chauncey Billups...that's 2..... you can't name a pass first PG that has since magic... scoring PGs fare better than pass first PGs ..because pass firsts PGs fate falls in the hands of their teammates and how good they are...

scoring PGs like Zeke, Payton, Westbrook, Kevin Johnson etc etc have always been the cream of the crop and always will be.. scoring PGs aren't something new...They've always been around and they've always been giving their teams a better chance to win than pass first PGs...

Magic johnson could afford to pass pass pass he played on arguably the greatest roster ever assembled...parker has 3 rings by the way....

[KNOW1EDGE]

Can you name a pass first point guard who led his team to a championship the last 15 years?

Yes.

Rondo and Jason Kidd off the top of my head, undisputable, plz don't try and argue that.

I also consider Tony Parker a complete pg rather than a me-first, shoot it every time down the court guard. You can dispute that one if you like.

Edit: good call with Billups, he is def a scoring pg who made it work.

But if you call Gary Payton a me-first scoring guard you are tripping. Dude was a stellar defender and below average jump shooter that was strong and could get to the bucket

[I.R.Beast]

opting to pass pass pass when your team is struggling and can use your offense is worse than chucking in my book. Deferring and looking "unselfish" in the process looks like you're not trying to win. However if you were aggressive trying to get your own offense going when your team needed it , at least you went down swinging. I watch countless clipper games where they need a buck and Cp3 is passing up shots that he can make to defer to inferior players...

[I.R.Beast]

Yes.

Rondo and Jason Kidd off the top of my head, undisputable, plz don't try and argue that.

I also consider Tony Parker a complete pg rather than a me-first, shoot it every time down the court guard. You can dispute that one if you like.


ROndo was not running our offense when we won...it was ran through the big 3...rondo was a second year PG that was asked to defend and give the ball to 1 of our big 3 to initiate our offense.. By no means did he run our offense...Jason kidd was not the main cog to dallas offense either that offense was predicated on ball movement with extra passes and playing off of dirk in the post... Nice try though

[KNOW1EDGE]

It's all just a matter of preference though.

I prefer a well rounded, facilitator of a pg.

Some prefer something else.

No harm, no foul.

Lillard is the pg for my fav team, not exactly a great facilitator or "team" player.

[I.R.Beast]

rondo averaged 5 assists on the year in the title year...Does that sound like a facilitator to you?....

[I.R.Beast]

It's all just a matter of preference though.

I prefer a well rounded, facilitator of a pg.

Some prefer something else.

No harm, no foul.

Lillard is the pg for my fav team, not exactly a great facilitator or "team" player.


Westbrook averages roughly 8 assists a game...he's clearly scoring and facilitating

[KNOW1EDGE]

ROndo was not running our offense when we won...it was ran through the big 3...rondo was a second year PG that was asked to defend and give the ball to 1 of our big 3 to initiate our offense.. By no means did he run our offense...Jason kidd was not the main cog to dallas offense either that offense was predicated on ball movement with extra passes and playing off of dirk in the post... Nice try though

Dude, last time I checked, Rondo and Kidd were the starting pg on those championship teams. That was the question and I answered it. Period.

[navy]

Yes.

Rondo and Jason Kidd off the top of my head, undisputable, plz don't try and argue that.

I also consider Tony Parker a complete pg rather than a me-first, shoot it every time down the court guard. You can dispute that one if you like.

Edit: good call with Billups, he is def a scoring pg who made it work.

But if you call Gary Payton a me-first scoring guard you are tripping. Dude was a stellar defender and below average jump shooter that was strong and could get to the bucket

Jason Kidd and Rondo led their teams to championships? :roll:

[I.R.Beast]

Yes.

Rondo and Jason Kidd off the top of my head, undisputable, plz don't try and argue that.

I also consider Tony Parker a complete pg rather than a me-first, shoot it every time down the court guard. You can dispute that one if you like.

Edit: good call with Billups, he is def a scoring pg who made it work.

But if you call Gary Payton a me-first scoring guard you are tripping. Dude was a stellar defender and below average jump shooter that was strong and could get to the bucket

payton was a 22+ and 7 assists god...much like westbrook...payton was a scoring PG..let's not get it twisted.. Parker is a scoring PG...throughand through ...barely averages 6 assists for his career...

[KNOW1EDGE]

Jason Kidd and Rondo led their teams to championships? :roll:

You right.

Jason Kidd and Rajon Rondo did not win championships as the starting pgs for their respected teams. I was wrong. It was someone else. I digress.

Like I've said, I'm not trying to convince anyone, just sharing my opinion and preference.

[I.R.Beast]

Dude, last time I checked, Rondo and Kidd were the starting pg on those championship teams. That was the question and I answered it. Period.
By that Logic i can use CHlamers as another example of a scoring PG that "lead" his team to a chip...smh... I can also use derrick fisher and ron harper as examples...kenny smith....none of them facilitators ..all shoot first

[navy]

You right.

Jason Kidd and Rajon Rondo did not win championships as the starting pgs for their respected teams. I was wrong. It was someone else. I digress.

Like I've said, I'm not trying to convince anyone, just sharing my opinion and preference.
Mario Chalmers and Derrick Fisher also won championship starting point guard for their respective teams as scoring point guards. Good insight. :oldlol:

[KNOW1EDGE]

payton was a 22+ and 7 assists god...much like westbrook...payton was a scoring PG..let's not get it twisted.. Parker is a scoring PG...throughand through ...barely averages 6 assists for his career...

I watched a ton of Gary Payton. I grew up in Oregon, watched him in college and the pros during the 90s and early 2000s.

Payton and Parker were never known for their shooting. Both were always below average shooters but both could get in the paint and finish like no other pgs I've seen. TP led the league in points in the paint one year.

We just see things differently. No biggy.

I admit Westbrook is a great pg, I just prefer CP3

[I.R.Beast]

I watched a ton of Gary Payton. I grew up in Oregon, watched him in college and the pros during the 90s and early 2000s.

Payton and Parker were never known for their shooting. Both were always below average shooters but both could get in the paint and finish like no other pgs I've seen. TP led the league in points in the paint one year.

We just see things differently. No biggy.

I admit Westbrook is a great pg, I just prefer CP3
parker is not a below average shooter...his mid range jumper has been money for several years.. tony parker is a scorer and so was payton....the evidence is not in your favor

[KNOW1EDGE]

parker is not a below average shooter...his mid range jumper has been money for several years.. tony parker is a scorer and so was payton....the evidence is not in your favor

Ok

[knicksman]

LOL at billups. billups is not a superstar same with parker. Give me a superstar pg that won as the man. Those 2 clearly won because they have teammates as good as them. Compare that to isiah and magic who clearly were the man on their teams. And honestly, score first pgs hasnt won since the creation of this league. At least pure pgs won. And rondo would too if not for the refs.

[The Iron Sheik]

Can you name a scoring pg in the last 15 years who led his team to a championship?

That's the point, it almost never happens. So cool, if you want lots of points and cool dunks then fine. If u think that means you know basketball better than me, fine.

why the last 15 years? you talk as if points guards who scored, have never been close to a championship or have never won, which is patently false.

how many "scoring" point guards have been on championship caliber teams the last 15 years outside of westbrook and rose?

[The Iron Sheik]

and let me reiterate, i'm not saying guys like westbrook (since he's being brought up so much) are perfect pgs. i'm not even arguing that a point guard scoring a lot is the "right" way to play. i'm merely saying that idk where all of this "pure pg" talk comes from like a point guard who sits around and passes all day is the norm, and point guards who score a lot are now "shooting guards in a point guard's body"/. history shows that isn't the case. every hof point guard save for stockton and nash (the only 2 examples people always bring up because they're the only 2 exeptions) has been a big time scorer. there are very few all time great pgs who weren't great scorers as well.

[buddha]

because PG's are easy to shutdown when the game is on the line.

[knicksman]

and let me reiterate, i'm not saying guys like westbrook (since he's being brought up so much) are perfect pgs. i'm not even arguing that a point guard scoring a lot is the "right" way to play. i'm merely saying that idk where all of this "pure pg" talk comes from like a point guard who sits around and passes all day is the norm, and point guards who score a lot are now "shooting guards in a point guard's body"/. history shows that isn't the case. every hof point guard save for stockton and nash (the only 2 examples people always bring up because they're the only 2 exeptions) has been a big time scorer. there are very few all time great pgs who weren't great scorers as well.

Jordan is a great all around player. he can average 10apg if he wants to. Its one thing to be great all around but its another thing to play all roles because you are great at it. And thats what separates a magic/jordan to bran/iverson. One is a team player and the other is a statpadder. Because just like a QB not being compatible to a receiver, same is true for a pg and a scorer. Imagine your QB being the receiver. Youre just not going to win that way. And that is why despite iversons or robertsons MVP. These guys only manage 1 50+ win season throughout their careers. And thats because aside from being easy to shutdown, teammates dont like to play with these selfish statpadders.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Jordan is a great all around player. he can average 10apg if he wants to. Its one thing to be great all around but its another thing to play all roles because you are great at it. And thats what separates a magic/jordan to bran/iverson. One is a team player and the other is a statpadder. Because just like a QB not being compatible to a receiver, same is true for a pg and a scorer. Imagine your QB being the receiver. Youre just not going to win that way. And that is why despite iversons or robertsons MVP. These guys only manage 1 50+ win season throughout their careers. And thats because teammates dont like to play with these selfish statpadders.
:biggums:

[The Iron Sheik]

Jordan is a great all around player. he can average 10apg if he wants to. Its one thing to be great all around but its another thing to play all roles because you are great at it. And thats what separates a magic/jordan to bran/iverson. One is a team player and the other is a statpadder. Because just like a QB not being compatible to a receiver, same is true for a pg and a scorer. Imagine your QB being the receiver. Youre just not going to win that way. And that is why despite iversons or robertsons MVP. These guys only manage 1 50+ win season throughout their careers. And thats because aside from being easy to shutdown, teammates dont like to play with these selfish statpadders.

why do you keep making football comparisons when they aren't comparable to basketball at all?

[jayfan]

Isiah Thomas career per-game averages (almost identical to per-36):

19 points, 16 attempts, 9 assists.




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