Replace MJ with Kobe during his whole career

[hahaitme]

How many rings? And which years?
Also assuming he doesn't pursue a career in baseball like Jordan.

[AirBourne92]

kobe played with a long range jumper

safe to say he could have 6 minimum

[Magic 32]

Win in 1991, 1993, 1996 and 1997.

[jstern]

Not many, if any. He needs a big man, and his Finals performances are just not going to be on par with Jordan's.

[ILLsmak]

I could see him getting as many as he already did.

No way to tell if Kobe needs a big man. He was just on teams with big men when he was on good teams. The Bulls teams were amazing in that they were very good without having a big man. MJ is a great player, but it also goes to show how the Bulls were built. Assuming Kobe could score in the spots MJ scored in, he would win some rings.

MJ is better than Kobe, but I don't think he's so much better that it's like KOBE COULDN'T WIN WITH THE BULLS. I'd bet other guys could win with that team and Kobe is a borderline top-10 player, at worst.

-Smak

[Roundball_Rock]

1985 missed playoffs
1986 first round
1987 missed playoffs
1988 first round
1989 first round
1990 ECF
1991 champs
1992 ECSF
1993 champs
1994 champs
1995 ECF (higher seed so they avoid Orlando until the ECF)
1996 champs
1997 champs
1998 ECF
2002 missed playoffs
2003 missed playoffs

[greatest-ever]

I haven't looked through the years but i'ma say he wins 2 or 3 rings max. And he would lose at least 1 fmvp to Pippen.

Contrary to what some may believe on here, Kobe is nowhere near Mj as a player. And those saying he'd win 5 or 6 on those bulls teams are delusional.

[Cold soul]

Kobe wins 4 or 5 championships on those Bulls teams. Kobe was a amazing talent one of greatest players ever just not as talented overall as MJ but not too far off either freakish athleticism and mindset sets them apart for me among other areas. Kobe wins in years: 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994, 1996, and maybe 97/98.

[imnew09]

6 peat. FOR SURE

[tpols]

I haven't looked through the years but i'ma say he wins 2 or 3 rings max. And he would lose at least 1 fmvp to Pippen.

Contrary to what some may believe on here, Kobe is nowhere near Mj as a player. And those saying he'd win 5 or 6 on those bulls teams are delusional.

Youre kidding yourself if you think Kobe with prime pippen rodman and grant couldnt win 4-5 rings when he won 2 at the end of his prime with pau gasol and lamar odom.


Regarding the Finals.. MJ has NEVER faced a first ranked defense.. Kobe has three times, including two GOAT level defenses in 04 Detroit and 08 Boston. Their opponents were not of the same caliber defensively in the Finals. FMVP almost always goes to the leading scorer as well. Big Ben had more impact on those piston teams than Chauncey but who won the award? Same thing with 08 Garnett and Pierce. And Kawhi and Duncan. Who ever has the best scoring series wins most of the time.

[Eric Cartman]

He'd win 5 (91,93,94,95,96)

[Dragonyeuw]

The question is, does Kobe come through in those moments that Jordan failed and ultimately came through? Much is made about his championship success, but his failures against the Pistons are a big part of the MJ narrative. How does Kobe react to the Pistons beating the hell out of him? Does he come back physically and mentally stronger, or does he request a trade in 1990 after 3 consecutive defeats? How does he react in 1992 against the Knicks in that seven game series? The talent and skillset is there, but there are alot of mental intangibles that MJ brought to the table that you can't quantify on a stat-sheet.

Remember, MJ was called a ballhog for 6 years who would never take his team to the top due to his 'individualistic' style of play, but he used that as motivation. Kobe historically reacts to criticisms of over-shooting by not shooting at all. MJ finding the balance between individual brilliance and blending his talents allowing role players to have their moments, is something Kobe has struggled with at times.

The question also assumes that Kobe and Pip hit it off chemistry-wise as well as MJ/Pip. Basketball is more complex than just swapping player 'x' with player 'y' and thinking that situation 'x' would occur. MJ and Kobe are similar and yet very different, and how they play off their teammates( and vice versa) plays a big role in how successful that team would be championship-wise. But, I think that if you took 29 year old Kobe, the MVP version, and blended him with the 90's Bulls, I don't think 3-4 titles is unreasonable but again there are lots of factors involved beyond just doing a player swap. 91,93, 96 and 97 I'd say is probable...but then are we assuming that he plays in 94 and 95, or does he follow MJ's exact trajectory and 'retires' between 93 and 95?

[3ball]

A Kobe-led Bulls team doesn't win 47 games in 1989.

Nor does he average the 40 PPG and 8 APG it took to beat Cleveland in the 1st round.

So the entire Bulls team would simply be several steps back each season from where Jordan had them.

Maybe they win 41 games in 1989 and sneak in the playoffs as an 8 seed, then get swept in Round 1 by the #1 seed... that's a lot worse than winning 47 games, getting the 6-seed, and making the conference finals.

Get it?... this IS how it would work.

[AirBourne92]

The question is, does Kobe come through in those moments that Jordan failed and ultimately came through? Much is made about his championship success, but his failures against the Pistons are a big part of the MJ narrative. How does Kobe react to the Pistons beating the hell out of him? Does he come back physically and mentally stronger, or does he request a trade in 1990 after 3 consecutive defeats? How does he react in 1992 against the Knicks in that seven game series? The talent and skillset is there, but there are alot of mental intangibles that MJ brought to the table that you can't quantify on a stat-sheet.

Remember, MJ was called a ballhog for 6 years who would never take his team to the top due to his 'individualistic' style of play, but he used that as motivation. Kobe historically reacts to criticisms of over-shooting by not shooting at all. MJ finding the balance between individual brilliance and blending his talents allowing role players to have their moments, is something Kobe has struggled with at times.

The question also assumes that Kobe and Pip hit it off chemistry-wise as well as MJ/Pip. Basketball is more complex than just swapping player 'x' with player 'y' and thinking that situation 'x' would occur. MJ and Kobe are similar and yet very different, and how they play off their teammates( and vice versa) plays a big role in how successful that team would be championship-wise. But, I think that if you took 29 year old Kobe, the MVP version, and blended him with the 90's Bulls, I don't think 3-4 titles is unreasonable but again there are lots of factors involved beyond just doing a player swap. 91,93, 96 and 97 I'd say is probable...but then are we assuming that he plays in 94 and 95, or does he follow MJ's exact trajectory and 'retires' between 93 and 95?


uhhh where do i even begin.

kobe's long range jumper would allow him to operate without getting smashed in the paint


also kobe utilized his teammates to their full capability.

that's why he dominated the WC playoffs for 3 years with a bunch of guys like pau gasol and lamar odom and a giant overgrown teenager named andrew bynum

[Dragonyeuw]

uhhh where do i even begin.

kobe's long range jumper would allow him to operate without getting smashed in the paint


also kobe utilized his teammates to their full capability.

that's why he dominated the WC playoffs for 3 years with a bunch of guys like pau gasol and lamar odom and a giant overgrown teenager named andrew bynum


You still haven't begun, that wasn't much of a retort. As it was, I said it's very likely he wins 4 of those 90's titles. You talk like I insulted him or something. I just think it's incredibly simplistic to just swap players in a bubble.

[3ball]

You still haven't begun, that wasn't much of a retort. As it was, I said it's very likely he wins 4 of those 90's titles. You talk like I insulted him or something.
How could Kobe keep pace with Jordan, when Kobe wouldn't have won 47 games with the Bulls in 1989 or gotten out of the first round that year?

Wait a minute - are you assuming that even though Kobe's Bulls don't match Jordan and make the conference finals in 1989, they still manage to win the championship by 1991?

That doesn't make sense.
.

[Dragonyeuw]

How could Kobe keep pace with Jordan, when Kobe wouldn't have won 47 games with the Bulls in 1989 or gotten out of the first round that year?

Or are you assuming that even though Kobe's Bulls don't match Jordan and make the conference finals in 1989, they still manage to win the championship by 1991?

That doesn't make sense.

The discussion doesn't make sense, as I said just swapping players assumes alot of other intangible factors fall into place perfectly alongside it. I'm willing to give the benefit of doubt that Kobe was good enough to lead those Bulls to 'some' titles, but really is all speculation. And please, don't kill my bandwidth with a 100 gif reply, it's not that serious.

[greatest-ever]

Youre kidding yourself if you think Kobe with prime pippen rodman and grant couldnt win 4-5 rings when he won 2 at the end of his prime with pau gasol and lamar odom.


Regarding the Finals.. MJ has NEVER faced a first ranked defense.. Kobe has three times, including two GOAT level defenses in 04 Detroit and 08 Boston. Their opponents were not of the same caliber defensively in the Finals. FMVP almost always goes to the leading scorer as well. Big Ben had more impact on those piston teams than Chauncey but who won the award? Same thing with 08 Garnett and Pierce. And Kawhi and Duncan. Who ever has the best scoring series wins most of the time.
Bringing up the fact that Kobe faced the Pistons and Celtics defense is useless because he played like crap in all 3 series, and won only one of them. Also lets not act like Mj didn't face tough defenses like the Celtics, Knicks, Pistons etc in a very physical era.

So lets see the first 3 peat jordan would be filled by 2003-2005 kobe so i think its safe to say he wouldnt win titles there considering he was nowhere near those versions of mj. The next 2 years would be interesting, with 06, 07 kobe, do they win the east and beat hakeem? Maybe one year but not both.

Then youd have 08-2010 kobe on the second 3 peat team. Id give them 96 for sure, then 07, and 08 being strong possibilities. Kobe from 2011 onward woudn't win any titles.

So yeah i originally said 2-3, now after looking closer at it id say 2-4. Anything over 4 is unrealistic.

[Demon Lizard]

1985 missed playoffs
1986 first round
1987 missed playoffs
1988 first round
1989 first round
1990 ECF
1991 champs
1992 ECSF
1993 champs
1994 champs
1995 ECF (higher seed so they avoid Orlando until the ECF)
1996 champs
1997 champs
1998 ECF
2002 missed playoffs
2003 missed playoffs

Why did you include 1994 but exclude 99-01?

[AirBourne92]

Bringing up the fact that Kobe faced the Pistons and Celtics defense is useless because he played like crap in all 3 series, and won only one of them. Also lets not act like Mj didn't face tough defenses like the Celtics, Knicks, Pistons etc in a very physical era.

So lets see the first 3 peat jordan would be filled by 2003-2005 kobe so i think its safe to say he wouldnt win titles there considering he was nowhere near those versions of mj. The next 2 years would be interesting, with 06, 07 kobe, do they win the east and beat hakeem? Maybe one year but not both.

Then youd have 08-2010 kobe on the second 3 peat team. Id give them 96 for sure, then 07, and 08 being strong possibilities. Kobe from 2011 onward woudn't win any titles.

So yeah i originally said 2-3, now after looking closer at it id say 2-4. Anything over 4 is unrealistic.


you have the most flawed reasoning ever.

kobe faced zones as well and had to face satellite defenders along with new defensive strategies.

this is what jordan had in the playoffs to help him guide his weak ass long range jumper throughout the playoffs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yeXeG4Ge00


meanwhile kobe had penetration lanes cut off and still got to the freethrow line and dunked and layed it in

but most importantly he was able to shoot from deep 2 and 3 and was able to utilize a team that wasn't even as deep as other teams in the WC.

FOH with that 2-4 BS

Kobe would have won 6 at the very least

[Demon Lizard]

Replace Kobe with Jordan.

Lakers potentially win 2000-2004. Then potentially 2008-10. Giving him up to 8 hypothetical rings.

[greatest-ever]

you have the most flawed reasoning ever.

kobe faced zones as well and had to face satellite defenders along with new defensive strategies.

this is what jordan had in the playoffs to help him guide his weak ass long range jumper throughout the playoffs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yeXeG4Ge00


meanwhile kobe had penetration lanes cut off and still got to the freethrow line and dunked and layed it in

but most importantly he was able to shoot from deep 2 and 3 and was able to utilize a team that wasn't even as deep as other teams in the WC.

FOH with that 2-4 BS

Kobe would have won 6 at the very least
And none of what you said is even relevant to my points.

He would have the potential to win titles from 94-98 and as i said 2-4. Any version of kobe from 05 and before which was his 9th season, was not close to Mj in his first 9 years so i don't see any titles those years.

Lol @ 6 titles you Kobe stans are embarassing and disingenuous.

[choppermagic]

At least 5.

A prime Phil Jackson with a healthy Tex Winter and insanely strong role players like Pippen, Rodman, Kerr etc. working around him? There's no way he wouldn't match his current total.

Pippen would get more of a chance to shine too and would probably win at least 1 FMVP during that stretch.

No way Kobe retires to go play baseball during a run of Finals appearances either. He'd probably be pissed that they didn't get to 75 wins in any season during their prime years as well.

[AirBourne92]

And none of what you said is even relevant to my points.

He would have the potential to win titles from 94-98 and as i said 2-4. Any version of kobe from 05 and before which was his 9th season, was not close to Mj in his first 9 years so i don't see any titles those years.

Lol @ 6 titles you Kobe stans are embarassing and disingenuous.

you have the most flawed reasoning ever


you tried to downplay the defenses kobe faced, when in fact kobe faced superior defenses, that's an outright fact.


your concept of a point is saying "oh i think he would do this and that and this but not that"

how can i even go into a serious discussion without you completely ignoring my points if that's your idea of debate?

i can go into defensive adjustments, mechanics, rules, tendencies, all of that.

you would never address any of it with anything logical or factual, instead you will keep defending a guy that was carried his way to titles by the league with crap defensive rules that gave him an island to operate off of

[greatest-ever]

you have the most flawed reasoning ever


you tried to downplay the defenses kobe faced, when in fact kobe faced superior defenses, that's an outright fact.


your concept of a point is saying "oh i think he would do this and that and this but not that"

how can i even go into a serious discussion without you completely ignoring my points if that's your idea of debate?

i can go into defensive adjustments, mechanics, rules, tendencies, all of that.

you would never address any of it with anything logical or factual, instead you will keep defending a guy that was carried his way to titles by the league with crap defensive rules that gave him an island to operate off of
It doesn't matter what defenses Kobe faced, if he went in place of Mj on the bulls he would be facing the same teams mj did. I wasnt trying to downplay the defense Kobe played, i was simply pointing rebutting the point of Kobe facing the detroit and celtics defense, that would only be relevant if Mj was in Kobe's place instead.

So stop with the strawman arguments and actually point out which years Kobe would win on the bulls and why.

Kobe's was not close to Mj in his 1st 9 years, thats just a fact, also mj was peaking when they 3-peated the first time, if careers were switched 03-05 kobe would be replaced on the 91-93 teams and i don't think they'd win.

Are you too stupid to understand that you don't just get to pick and choose what version of kobe plays on which bulls team?

[ArbitraryWater]

Win in 1996

[Badazzwriter]

Definitely wins more than 4 rings

[Roundball_Rock]

Why did you include 1994 but exclude 99-01?

I forgot. The Bulls would be a 40-45 win team with Kobe from 1999-01. The 2002 and 2003 comments from me had Kobe on the Wizards.