Greatest Defenders Ever (Sports Illustrated - Top 10) [Archive] - Message Board Basketball Forum

bizil

02-12-2015, 03:49 PM

I almost feel like you need two separate lists for big men and perimeter players. U have too many great defenders who brought different things to the table. For perimeter guys, how about guys like Moncrief, Walt Frazier, Dennis Johnson, Hondo, and Michael Cooper? In terms of versatility on the perimeter, guys like Bobby Jones and Kirilenko were among the most versatile defenders of all time.

So that list is ok, but A LOT of the top defenders of all time weren't HOFers. It just seemed like they took the premier defenders who are already HOFers. When in reality, u have some guys who were great defenders BUT NOT in the HOF. That's why if anything they should have separated big men from perimeter players.

SHAQisGOAT

02-12-2015, 03:50 PM

Extremely shitty list, nough said...

My top3 all-time defensive players by position would be-

PG:
1. Payton
2. Frazier
3. DJ (more of a SG at his peak though)

SG:
1. Moncrief
2. Jordan
3. Cooper

SF:
1. Pippen
2. Rodman (more of a SF at his defensive best)
3. Bowen

PF:
1. KG
2. Timmy
3. Bobby Jones (could also be at SF)

C:
1. Russell
2. Hakeem
3. (can't pick a definitive one here)

It's hard to rank an overall top10 but, in terms of defensive impact, you'd most likely only have bigmen... So yea, my list would be EXTREMELY different from that, and I don't find that one even plausible.

I mean, Jordan at #2? Lebron in the top10 and over someone like KG? It goes on... Gimme a ****in break, that's terrible :facepalm

JonatanRey

02-12-2015, 03:50 PM

Jesus, half of these players are non bigs. :facepalm
That's like compiling a list of the GOAT shooters with half of them being bigs.

I don't get the face palm. If you are little you are supposed to be a worse defender? Honestly, if you really watched Pippen, you would consider he is too low. Anyway, putting Lebron in a top 10 all time defense its laughable. This list is a joke. MJ is too high, Pippen should be over him. Miss Big Ben.

fiddy

02-12-2015, 03:53 PM

SI=joke

T_L_P

02-12-2015, 03:53 PM

Name'em.

Ben Wallace, Rasho Nesterovic, etc.

jzek

02-12-2015, 03:57 PM

Psileas

02-12-2015, 04:03 PM

I don't get the face palm. If you are little you are supposed to be a worse defender? Honestly, if you really watched Pippen, you would consider he is too low. Anyway, putting Lebron in a top 10 all time defense its laughable. This list is a joke. MJ is too high, Pippen should be over him. Miss Big Ben.

Yes, little men by default have less of a defensive impact than bigs. It doesn't necessarily mean they are less skilled and don't know how to play defense equally well, it's that by nature they can't guard bigs consistently and when guarding players of their position, they can rely more on bigs covering them whenever they lose their guy than vice versa. Not to mention that preventing ball movement at the perimeter is obviously harder than preventing ball movement in the paint.

PS. None of the small guys of the list is too low. Wilt, Thurmond, Ben Wallace, Dwight, Robinson now these are some guys who are too low.
PS2. Thank God they omitted Kobe...

Mr Feeny

02-12-2015, 04:04 PM

http://i.gyazo.com/6f3b31b870475755003a663146f229c2.png

MJ, Payton, Pippen, and LeBron are obviously too high... There are a good amount of other bigs who simply have a higher defensive impact.

The list is from a book SI published at the end of last year I think, called "Sports Illustrated Basketball's Greatest"

MJ and prime Lebron are not high at all in my opinion. You're forgetting just how dominant 2009-2012 Lebron was on defense. YES, he was miles ahead of Pippen in my opinion. And this was a guy who didn't focus his entire energy on the defensive end like Bowen, Pippen, and some of the rest of these stoppers. 2009 Lebron was the best perimeter defender of the last decade and a half in my opinion.

Prime MJ was just that if not even better as a lock down perimeter defender. Tex Winter, Larry Brown, and Shaq (I know,I know...he talks a lot of garbage) have all said that they consider Jordan the best defender PERIOD in NBA History. In any position. Whether he deserves to be called that or not is another matter but it just shows you just how good he was in his days. 99% of the posters on this board didn't even get to watch prime Mcgrady or Iverson, never mind MJ. And it's easy chalk anythung to the MJ "myth" when it was anything but.

Russell, I think we all agree is the correct choice here.

rapker

02-12-2015, 04:05 PM

how can they not include Bruce Bowen and Ben Wallace in there... what a joke list lol..

imdaman99

02-12-2015, 04:05 PM

Mr Feeny

02-12-2015, 04:06 PM

AH! Just read A.W.'s point about bigs. Fair point. Defensive bigs have a higher impact than perimeter defenders.

No argument there. Spot on.

jzek

02-12-2015, 04:06 PM

how can they not include Bruce Bowen and Ben Wallace in there... what a joke list lol..

Who would those two replace in the list? Not saying you're wrong but just curious who you think should be left out.

Mr Feeny

02-12-2015, 04:08 PM

how can they not include Bruce Bowen and Ben Wallace in there... what a joke list lol..You cannot be serious. Bowen is NOT a top 10 defender all time. Top 15-20 yes. Higher than that....just no. He'd be the first to admit as much.

Big Ben could have replaced Dikembe but then again we're talking about a 4 time DPOY.

3ball

02-12-2015, 04:08 PM

Jordan destroyed everyone on that list routinely - MJ's quickness was always a huge mismatch for Rodman (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=359858).. And of course, MJ famously embarrassed Dikembe (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKJnZNVhLYA).

Both Hakeem (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=359858) and Duncan (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=359858) were clearly scared to contest Jordan.

Garnett got repeatedly and thoroughly embarrassed when MJ played SF with the Wizards and the two were matched up all game.. Jordan scored 8 times on Garnett (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=embqhggoep4) in the first half alone - this is highlighted by a stretch of 5 straight possessions starting at the 4:00 minute mark that included a blow-by dunk.

Of course, there are many well-documented stories of Phil Jackson putting Jordan against Pippen in practice - Pippen would play with the starters and they would be spotted a lead against Jordan and the bench players - Jordan's bench team would routinely come back and win.

Craig Hodges also tells a story of how Jordan played Pippen in 1-on-1 and scored on him so convincingly, that Pippen had to tell Jordan to take it easy (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enna-TEgE4o&t=13m30s).

ArbitraryWater

02-12-2015, 04:11 PM

Sports Illustrated will place Lebron in all these lists. It was part of their agreement when he went to them to give the letter someone else wrote for him. He will be #4 on the Greatest Hairlines Ever and #3 on the Most Loyal Players of all time list. Shows you how seriously to take Sports Illustrated now that they've sold their souls to LeInsecure.

Bowen and Artest and Big Ben belong up there.

You seemingly only hate the LeBron ranking, considering all these paragraphs..

Now thats some insecurity right there.

But I think at least we can agree with LeBron on a top 5 ranking for perimeter guys :cheers:

--

Prime Kareem was able to completely shut down cuts/moves, aswell.. low center of gravity.

kuniva_dAMiGhTy

02-12-2015, 04:15 PM

MJ and prime Lebron are not high at all in my opinion. You're forgetting just how dominant 2009-2012 Lebron was on defense. YES, he was miles ahead of Pippen in my opinion. And this was a guy who didn't focus his entire energy on the defensive end like Bowen, Pippen, and some of the rest of these stoppers. 2009 Lebron was the best perimeter defender of the last decade and a half in my opinion.

Prime MJ was just that if not even better as a lock down perimeter defender. Tex Winter, Larry Brown, and Shaq (I know,I know...he talks a lot of garbage) have all said that they consider Jordan the best defender PERIOD in NBA History. In any position. Whether he deserves to be called that or not is another matter but it just shows you just how good he was in his days. 99% of the posters on this board didn't even get to watch prime Mcgrady or Iverson, never mind MJ. And it's easy chalk anythung to the MJ "myth" when it was anything but.

Russell, I think we all agree is the correct choice here.

LeBron doesn't have anything on Tony Allen, Bowen or Shane Battier. And Pippen? Are you insane? Lay off the crack pipe, kiddo.

rapker

02-12-2015, 04:16 PM

Who would those two replace in the list? Not saying you're wrong but just curious who you think should be left out.

LBJ, KG, MJ.. those 3 don't belong in top 10 greatest defenders. don't get me wrong, they are great.. but not top 10 great.

fpliii

02-12-2015, 04:16 PM

LBJ, KG, MJ.. those 3 don't belong in top 10 greatest defenders. don't get me wrong, they are great.. but not top 10 great.
wow...

SHAQisGOAT

02-12-2015, 04:17 PM

Dude in my avatar gets underrated many times... And Bobby Jones is probably the most underrated defender of all-time, I always see people naming players who are just below Bobby as defenders, while his name never pops up.

Frazier also gets underrated, Thurmond too (probably the GOAT m2m post-defender), even guys like Bowen or sometimes Cooper.

But anyways, like I've said, extremely shitty list...

Heavincent

02-12-2015, 04:19 PM

You're forgetting just how dominant 2009-2012 Lebron was on defense. YES, he was miles ahead of Pippen in my opinion.

What is this shit?

imdaman99

02-12-2015, 04:19 PM

You seemingly only hate the LeBron ranking, considering all these paragraphs..

Now thats some insecurity right there.

But I think at least we can agree with LeBron on a top 5 ranking for perimeter guys :cheers:
How many DPOYs does he have? I guess Duncan doesn't either, but he has anchored the best defense for multiple years.

How insecure does one have to be to buy loyalty? How many paragraphs did I write this time? Do you consider a new line a paragraph? :oldlol:

rapker

02-12-2015, 04:19 PM

You cannot be serious. Bowen is NOT a top 10 defender all time. Top 15-20 yes. Higher than that....just no. He'd be the first to admit as much.

Big Ben could have replaced Dikembe but then again we're talking about a 4 time DPOY.

Bowen not only plays AMAZING defense, he also ****s with you mentally.. i would replace lbj or kg with bowen on that list any day. lbj or kg are great defenders but they are not top 10 greats.. and come on, the only player that could somewhat contain shaq (from the top of my head, memory wise) is big ben and david robinson

ArbitraryWater

02-12-2015, 04:19 PM

Bobby Jones was like 6'9 with great athleticism and defensive feel... made 8 all-defensive first teams. He should be mentioned with LeBron/MJ/Pip/Moncrief.. Payton (?).

NattyPButter

02-12-2015, 04:20 PM

WTF no Ben Wallace or Tony Allen

ArbitraryWater

02-12-2015, 04:21 PM

How many DPOYs does he have? I guess Duncan doesn't either, but he has anchored the best defense for multiple years.

How insecure does one have to be to buy loyalty? I didn't write multiple paragraphs, I wrote one. LeOverrated

Ugh, he's been DPOTY runner-up twice and 4th another time, and that's probably not even including his best defensive season (2011), shame on your for not being able to acknowledge his defensive prowess.

Milbuck

02-12-2015, 04:22 PM

lol at Big Ben not making the list.
You're forgetting just how dominant 2009-2012 Lebron was on defense. YES, he was miles ahead of Pippen in my opinion.
http://lastgif.com/gifs/13412.gif

rapker

02-12-2015, 04:22 PM

wow...

would you rank KG higher than ben wallace in their defensive games?

Demon Lizard

02-12-2015, 04:23 PM

Mr Feeny

02-12-2015, 04:24 PM

What is this shit?This is the hard cold truth. I actually watched the Bulls from 92-98 (missed the first championship year and watched nearly every Cavs game after the 2007 finals and before the decision.
Lebron was a better defender than Pippen was. If you were old enough to have watched them both, you wouldn't be so confused.

tpols

02-12-2015, 04:25 PM

MJ and prime Lebron are not high at all in my opinion. You're forgetting just how dominant 2009-2012 Lebron was on defense. YES, he was miles ahead of Pippen in my opinion. And this was a guy who didn't focus his entire energy on the defensive end like Bowen, Pippen, and some of the rest of these stoppers. 2009 Lebron was the best perimeter defender of the last decade and a half in my opinion.

Prime MJ was just that if not even better as a lock down perimeter defender. Tex Winter, Larry Brown, and Shaq (I know,I know...he talks a lot of garbage) have all said that they consider Jordan the best defender PERIOD in NBA History. In any position. Whether he deserves to be called that or not is another matter but it just shows you just how good he was in his days. 99% of the posters on this board didn't even get to watch prime Mcgrady or Iverson, never mind MJ. And it's easy chalk anythung to the MJ "myth" when it was anything but.

Russell, I think we all agree is the correct choice here.

They are both absurdly high.. As are you for saying otherwise. LeBron was not even a top 10 defender in 2009 nor the best perimeter defender by any metric. His team defense has never ever been in the same stratosphere as the truly dominant big man defenders of his era much less of the previous 4 eras.

And we don't have the data on Jordan but it's pretty safe to assume he is nowhere near the drobs, Alonzo mourning, Ewing etc.. Any centers that anchored top defenses just blow his impact out of the water just like his offensive impact destroys theirs.

ArbitraryWater

02-12-2015, 04:25 PM

Duncan-

Ability to never jump or fall for a fake or shot, stay grounded all the time.

Anchor of a top 3 defense from rookie year to 2008 (beginning shared with Robinson).

Top 3 in Drtg and Opp. PPG from 1998-2008, another top 3 defense in 2013 and 4th in 2014.

http://i.gyazo.com/ddb70da7a0f5f8b378345b471a7c2f08.png

Mr Feeny

02-12-2015, 04:28 PM

I think Jordan needs to be just behind Pippen, but both are deserving of being in the top 10. LeBron should not be in the top 10. Above KG and Mutombo? Please.

Pippen himself wouldn't claim that he was a better defender than prime Jordan.
Lebron is underrated because he is hated.he guarded EVERYONE. At times against Boston, he guarded Allen, Pierce and KG.

THAT GAME 6 against Boston in 2012. Held Pierce to 4-18 shooting.
Games 6 and 7 of the NBA finals held Parker to 25%fg.
2011 ECF held the MVP to 10%fg on isolations.
He used to be insanely good before he lost his athleticism.

Mr Feeny

02-12-2015, 04:31 PM

They are both absurdly high.. As are you for saying otherwise. LeBron was not even a top 10 defender in 2009 nor the best perimeter defender by any metric. His team defense has never ever been in the same stratosphere as the truly dominant big man defenders of his era much less of the previous 4 eras.

And we don't have the data on Jordan but it's pretty safe to assume he is nowhere near the drobs, Alonzo mourning, Ewing etc.. Any centers that anchored top defenses just blow his impact out of the water just like his offensive impact destroys theirs.

Nearly every basketball analyst on the planet or anyone who watches basketball had Lebron as a top 2-3 defender on the planet in 2009.
A few argued he should have been DPOY. As it was, he had to settle for 2nd. Higher than your boy ever got.

I know you hate him but don't be an idiot. You just make youself silly when you say that he wasn't a top 10 defender in 09:facepalm

imdaman99

02-12-2015, 04:31 PM

Ugh, he's been DPOTY runner-up twice and 4th another time, and that's probably not even including his best defensive season (2011), shame on your for not being able to acknowledge his defensive prowess.
The only notable defensive play I've seen bran make is locking up Durant at the end of the game 2 Finals in 2012. And that was a blatant hack, but if the refs allow me to hack someone at the end of a game I would do it too :cheers:

Melo used to routinely burn him when he was on the Nuggets and bran was on the Cavs originally. And they had great team defense.

Is he a good defender? Yes he once was. But I can't use the word great. That is all media hype. There is no denying that he is a media darling. He guarded Kendrick Perkins in the Finals, and he blocked Tiago Splitter. And he bullied an injured Tony Parker (although Parker hit some big shots in his face as well). Nothing is memorable.

kuniva_dAMiGhTy

02-12-2015, 04:32 PM

This is the hard cold truth. I actually watched the Bulls from 92-98 (missed the first championship year and watched nearly every Cavs game after the 2007 finals and before the decision.
Lebron was a better defender than Pippen was. If you were old enough to have watched them both, you wouldn't be so confused.

No, actually it's not.

I would like to see you prove it though.

24-Inch_Chrome

02-12-2015, 04:32 PM

http://i.gyazo.com/ddb70da7a0f5f8b378345b471a7c2f08.png

That glorious image is avatar-worthy.

Mr Feeny

02-12-2015, 04:35 PM

No, actually it's not.

I would like to see you prove it though.

Prove that Lebron ended 2nd in DPOY? Google it you pillock.

Or go ahead and give me another neg for being "a Lebron stan". Which I'm anything but. Keep negging. Doesn't change history.

Mr Feeny

02-12-2015, 04:37 PM

kuniva_dAMiGhTy

02-12-2015, 04:37 PM

Prove that Lebron ended 2nd in DPOY? Google it you pillock.

Or go ahead and give me another neg for being "a Lebron stan". Which I'm anything but. Keep negging. Doesn't change history.

I'm not talking about him being "2nd in DPOY" (a trained monkey could look that up).

Provide evidence and/or data that suggests LeBron is a better defender than Pippen ever was. We'll wait.

Mr Feeny

02-12-2015, 04:40 PM

I'm not talking about him being second in "2nd DPOY" (a trained monkey could look that up).

Provide evidence and/or data that suggests LeBron is a better defender than Pippen ever was. We'll wait.

Data? Tough to find data that shows how one of them guarded 5 guys on the court while the other was hidden on defense guarding 37 year old John Stockton.

Like I said, keep negging. Salty.

tpols

02-12-2015, 04:41 PM

Nearly every basketball analyst on the planet or anyone who watches basketball had Lebron as a top 2-3 defender on the planet in 2009.
A few argued he should have been DPOY. As it was, he had to settle for 2nd. Higher than your boy ever got.

I know you hate him but don't be an idiot. You just make youself silly when you say that he wasn't a top 10 defender in 09:facepalm

No.. Dude go look up the impact numbers.. LeBron was behind a handful of big men. By a lot in some cases. He was behind even Gerald Wallace.. Who was a great perimeter defender. Nobody watched much of Gerald Wallace though.

Mentioning DPOY popularity contest is like using one of kobes all team awards to say he's better than Tony Allen. It's literally the exact same argument.

kuniva_dAMiGhTy

02-12-2015, 04:41 PM

Data? Tough to find data that shows how one of them guarded 5 guys on the court while the other was hidden on defense guarding 37 year old John Stockton.

Like I said, keep negging. Salty.

So you got nothing? Yup, just as I thought.

Smoke117

02-12-2015, 04:42 PM

LMfao...what a joke of a list. Jordan 2?...are you ****ing serious? DAVID ROBINSON...NOT EVEN IN THE TOP 10 while Lebron and all these perimeter guys are? :roll: :roll: :roll: David Robinson along with Olajuwon are the greatest and impactful defenders of the modern era of basketball. This list can't even be taken seriously.

ArbitraryWater

02-12-2015, 04:42 PM

The only notable defensive play I've seen bran make is locking up Durant at the end of the game 2 Finals in 2012. And that was a blatant hack, but if the refs allow me to hack someone at the end of a game I would do it too :cheers:

Melo used to routinely burn him when he was on the Nuggets and bran was on the Cavs originally. And they had great team defense.

Is he a good defender? Yes he once was. But I can't use the word great. That is all media hype. There is no denying that he is a media darling. He guarded Kendrick Perkins in the Finals, and he blocked Tiago Splitter. And he bullied an injured Tony Parker (although Parker hit some big shots in his face as well). Nothing is memorable.

Oooookayy...

2010: Holds Pierce to 14 ppg on 35%

2011:

G4 with LeBron on Rose: 0-5 + 1 TO
G5 with LeBron on Rose: 1-10 + 2 TO's

Lowest percentage of Rose's career against any player via ESPN stats/records (6.3%)

In 2013 he held Paul George to 7 points on 2-9 in Game 7 of the ECF, West couldn't even get into a position to score with LeBron on him.

Shut down Tony Parker 2 straight games:
Game 6: 6-26 =23%
Game 7: 3-12 =25%

The shot he did make was an insane 3- pointer (which you obviously mentioned).

Even the infamous 2011 Terry 3 had LeBron right in his grill.

Amazing defensively for 5 straight years from 2009-2013, kicked it up again in 2014, locking up George, West, Parker.

He's absolutely bullied bigs like Gasol, before. Outmuscled MWP.

Any time he does this, something else was the reason however.

"Miami help defense" "Parker injured doe"....

You aren't capable of giving him his credit.

This man was the leader of his team from the start, from the age of 21 he had to lead that Cavs team, worked defensively, scored at a high clip, rebounded and assisted, doing it all.. the hard work he spends game in game out is something to be admired.

SHAQisGOAT

02-12-2015, 04:43 PM

Bobby Jones was like 6'9 with great athleticism and defensive feel... made 8 all-defensive first teams. He should be mentioned with LeBron/MJ/Pip/Moncrief.. Payton (?).

:applause:

6'9 barefooted, very long, great athlete, defensive fundamentals and will, could guard - extremely well - all types of forwards, even some centers and some guards, at his best was getting steals like the best guards and blocks like the best centers...

He most likely would've won DPOY in 1977 if the award was given out already, probably making him less underrated by now.

Like you've said, 8x all-defensive 1st (2nd best) in 10 NBA seasons, too.

Dude's a top5 all-time defensive forward (top3 PF) imho, and rarely gets mentioned.

Moncrief is not as underrated because he won 2 DPOY's, but also gets pretty underrated...

tpols

02-12-2015, 04:44 PM

He held Parker to 6-23 shooting in that elimination game 6 of the finals.
Rose to 10%! shooting on isolations in the 2011 ECF
And Pierce to 4-18 in the elimination game 6 of 2012 Ecf
And got roasted by Jason Terry, kawhis Leonard and even Joe Johnson.. Let's not act like LeBron hasn't been lit up in embarrassing fashion. Tony Parker even banged back to back shots on him to give the spurs their lead in the waning minutes of game six.. Tony got his jabs in.. Wasn't his fault Manu and pop choked the game away

Chadwin

02-12-2015, 04:44 PM

Bran above Mutombo

:biggums:

Mr Feeny

02-12-2015, 04:45 PM

So you got nothing? Yup, just as I thought.

Learnt your lesson? Great. Go watch some tapes.

kuniva_dAMiGhTy

02-12-2015, 04:48 PM

Learnt your lesson? Great. Go watch some tapes.

No data and/or evidence yet? We'll wait :cheers:

Mr Feeny

02-12-2015, 04:48 PM

And got roasted by Jason Terry, kawhis Leonard and even Joe Johnson.. Let's not act like LeBron hasn't been lit up in embarrassing fashion. Tony Parker even banged back to back shots on him to give the spurs their lead in the waning minutes of game six.. Tony got his jabs in.. Wasn't his fault Manu and pop choked the game awayTrue but that was 2011. When he choked like crazy in the finals offensively and defensively. The same playoffs he was on God mode on defense. If you're gonna mention the finals that year, fair point. But it's only one series. That Parker game. Again. 6-23. Making a couple of baskets in a game in which you were hassled into missing 17 shots is not a good example of "getting your jabs in" in my opinion.

Mr Feeny

02-12-2015, 04:50 PM

No data and/or evidence yet? We'll wait :cheers:

Lebron in his prime in Miami Drating 101
Pippen 102:(

Not that I believe in most of these. I actually watched the games. You didn't. I don't need to look at these box scores you do. Class dismissed.

jlip

02-12-2015, 04:50 PM

It is conceivable that those who contributed to the construction of this list probably know little to nothing about players such as Nate Thurmond, Bobby Jones, and Sidney Moncrief. Being knowledgeable of sports history is not a qualification of being a sports journalist. Typically having a journalism/ writing based degree and enjoying sports is enough.

tpols

02-12-2015, 04:52 PM

True but that was 2011. When he choked like crazy in the finals offensively and defensively. The same playoffs he was on God mode on defense. If you're gonna mention the finals that year, fair point. But it's only one series. That Parker game. Again. 6-23. Making a couple of baskets in a game in which you were hassled into missing 17 shots is not a good example of "getting your jabs in" in my opinion.

LeBron did not guard Tony Parker for 23 shots. He only guard Parker in the last 5-8 minutes of the game. He didn't defend him for the majority of his shots. And Tony came through right in his grill to give them the game pretty much after LeBron ran out of energy from his no headband mode. LeBron didn't stop him at all. Parker did his job in that series and his numbers got fked by the enormous spur choke he had nothing to do with.

T_L_P

02-12-2015, 04:54 PM

SI kind of saved themselves by calling it the 'Greatest' Ever list; most accomplished, revered, etc. meaning perimeter players are fair game.

Jordan, Pippen and the Glove are all good choices then.

If it's simply the most impactful defenders? Needs to be 10 big men. I'd replace the wings with Thurmond, Robinson and Big Ben...no idea who'd be there next.

Mr Feeny

02-12-2015, 04:54 PM

Oooookayy...

2010: Holds Pierce to 14 ppg on 35%

2011:

G4 with LeBron on Rose: 0-5 + 1 TO
G5 with LeBron on Rose: 1-10 + 2 TO's

Lowest percentage of Rose's career against any player via ESPN stats/records (6.3%)

In 2013 he held Paul George to 7 points on 2-9 in Game 7 of the ECF, West couldn't even get into a position to score with LeBron on him.

Shut down Tony Parker 2 straight games:
Game 6: 6-26 =23%
Game 7: 3-12 =25%

The shot he did make was an insane 3- pointer (which you obviously mentioned).

Even the infamous 2011 Terry 3 had LeBron right in his grill.

Amazing defensively for 5 straight years from 2009-2013, kicked it up again in 2014, locking up George, West, Parker.

He's absolutely bullied bigs like Gasol, before. Outmuscled MWP.

Any time he does this, something else was the reason however.

"Miami help defense" "Parker injured doe"....

You aren't capable of giving him his credit.

This man was the leader of his team from the start, from the age of 21 he had to lead that Cavs team, worked defensively, scored at a high clip, rebounded and assisted, doing it all.. the hard work he spends game in game out is something to be admired.

:applause: Thank you for this. I hope the crybaby on here who goes ok tantrums and negs everyone who praises a player he doesn't like gets to read this. Since he wants facts.

T_L_P

02-12-2015, 04:55 PM

Mr Feeny

02-12-2015, 04:56 PM

LeBron did not guard Tony Parker for 23 shots. He only guard Parker in the last 5-8 minutes of the game. He didn't defend him for the majority of his shots. And Tony came through right in his grill to give them the game pretty much after LeBron ran out of energy from his no headband mode. LeBron didn't stop him at all. Parker did his job in that series and his numbers got fked by the enormous spur choke he had nothing to do with.

Didn't Lebron force him into an air ball with the championship on the line in the final seconds and then hold him scoreless the entire overtime before holding him to 3-12 in game 7. Come on man! Are you guys COMPLETELY incapable of giving credit to a player you hate.

T_L_P

02-12-2015, 04:57 PM

Triple post...me no care.

Robinson is closer to GOAT defensive player than he is out of the top ten.

The 6 greatest defensive players are basically a lock for me (in some order):

Russell
Wallace
Robinson
Hakeem
Duncan
Garnett

kuniva_dAMiGhTy

02-12-2015, 04:57 PM

Lebron in his prime in Miami Drating 101
Pippen 102:(

Not that I believe in most of these. I actually watched the games. You didn't. I don't need to look at these box scores you do. Class dismissed.

I actually grew up on the 90s Bulls and watched all their games. Nice try though.

Lets see.. In Pippen's prime, he had more seasons of 99 DRtg and/or lower than LeBron has had (just 2). From 1990-2000, Pippen also averaged a 101 DRtg; from 2006-currently, LeBron has averaged a 102 DRtg.

Also of note, Pippen has more defensive winshares along with a better defensive RAPM.

I would say class is still in session, but you've already flunked the course. :confusedshrug:

RRR3

02-12-2015, 05:00 PM

Even if we accept LeBron was a GOAT-tier defender from 09-12, that's not very long for someone to be considered a top 10 defender all time.

ArbitraryWater

02-12-2015, 05:00 PM

Demon Lizard

02-12-2015, 05:01 PM

That glorious image is avatar-worthy.

You should zoom in on the face for your avatar. When it is small, he just looks like Gus from Breaking Bad.

Smoke117

02-12-2015, 05:01 PM

This list looks like it was compiled by fans not anyone who actually knows anything about basketball. And why are so many people arguing with this clown feeny? Let's say Lebron was "way better" (:rolleyes: ) or whatever you said than Pippen from 9-12 or w/e...so what? Lebron is 30 years old and played shit defense this entire season...Pippen was 37 on his last year on the Blazers with two bad knees and a bad back and played way better defense. Pippen was the cream of the crop for a good decade and still good-very good on those last 4-5 years on the Blazers. Also, Lebron was never close to as dominant defensively as Pippen in 94 and 95, (the most dominant defense by a perimeter player ever in 95) so you are wrong anyway.

Either way, you are full of shit. We judge a player by his career not 3 or 4 years where he was all time dominant. (which he wasn't in reality anyway) Lebron has never come close to putting in the consistent effort his entire career like Pip did and frankly he couldn't even play defense up until a 3 or 4 years into his career.

Mr Feeny

02-12-2015, 05:03 PM

I actually grew up on the 90s Bulls and watched all their games. Nice try though.

Lets see.. In Pippen's prime, he had more seasons of 99 DRtg and/or lower than LeBron has had (just 2). From 1990-2000, Pippen also averaged a 101 DRtg; from 2006-currently, LeBron has averaged a 102 DRtg.

Also of note, Pippen has more defensive winshares along with a better defensive RAPM.

I would say class is still in session, but you've already flunked the course. :confusedshrug:

No you didn't. You're reading boxscores since you have no clue what you're talking about. Lebron has a defensive rating of 101 with Miami while Pippen has a drating of 102.

For their careers they're are virtually tied despite the fact that Lebron spend the majority(emphasis here) of his career on teams with no great defenders while Pippen spent almost his career with the greatest perimeter defender in history and one of the greatest pf defenders of all time helping him in that regard.

Lesson is well and truly over. Go watch some tapes young punk.
Keep negging

Mr Feeny

02-12-2015, 05:05 PM

It's bad.. not worth responding to, really. Instead of his actual game, it's "but dat three Parker hitt!!" If I were that dumb I'd say "dat airball LeBron forced him into!" Also not the whole picture. Whole picture are those 23% + 25%, LeBron on Parker to close out the series.

You're right.
I'm convinced half the posters on this board are insane or just don't watch basketball but comment on it:facepalm

fpliii

02-12-2015, 05:05 PM

would you rank KG higher than ben wallace in their defensive games?
Not sure, but there would be a conversation. My understanding though, is that longevity plays into this type of list.

Big Ben was a dominant defender for a good while in the 00s. KG was comparable for more than twice as long (and his linebacker defense really helped define the modern post illegal-D defensive era http://www.nytimes.com/2001/11/25/sports/pro-basketball-inside-the-nba-ignoring-advantages-few-teams-use-zone.html http://www.espn.go.com/classic/biography/s/Garnett_Kevin.html dude was guarding everybody).

I don't have an issue with Big Ben at all on a top 10 list. Might make the top 10 anyway, and certainly does if we're talking about just primes.

Keno

02-12-2015, 05:05 PM

prime lebron is super underrated on defense, he could legit stop anyone when he tried (i'd go as far as saying he could even defend prime shaq).

ArbitraryWater

02-12-2015, 05:07 PM

You're right.
I'm convinced half the posters on this board are insane or just don't watch basketball but comment on it:facepalm

Nah, I think you're right and wrong... I mean, kuniva or Smoke are reasonable as well, LeBron wasn't "miles ahead of Pippen", but he was still elite like you say.

tpols just is incapable of making a solid argument (and imdaman seems to be dumb all-around). This guy really mentioned a Parker 3 in a game in which LeBron completely shut him down, and a Terry shot with LeBron right in his face. It's no surprise he's the Kobe fan in this discussion, as Kobe will never be mentioned around these parts.

kuniva_dAMiGhTy

02-12-2015, 05:09 PM

No you didn't. You're reading boxscores since you have no clue what you're talking about. Lebron has a defensive rating of 101 with Miami while Pippen has a drating of 102.

For their careers they're are virtually tied despite the fact that Lebron spend the majority(emphasis here) of his career on teams with no great defenders while Pippen spent almost his career with the greatest perimeter defender in history and one of the greatest pf defenders of all time helping him in that regard.

Lesson is well and truly over. Go watch some tapes young punk.
Keep negging

:sleeping

I'm "reading" box scores (data noted after actually playing the game), because you can't prove a thing you say. Clown.

Once again, LeBron in his prime has a 102 defensive-rating whereas Pippen, in his, had a 101. For their careers, they're both at 102; unfortunately, LeBron's will only plummet. RAPM and defensive winshares also say Pippen was a better defensive player than LeBron ever was.

I think we need to put you on timeout. Lying about numbers and making shit up is grounds for a ban. :lol

Mr Feeny

02-12-2015, 05:11 PM

Nah, I think you're right and wrong... I mean, kuniva or Smoke are reasonable as well, LeBron wasn't "miles ahead of Pippen", but he was still elite like you say.

tpols just is incapable of making a solid argument. This guy really mentioned a Parker 3 in a game in which LeBron completely shut him down, and a Terry shot with LeBron right in his face. It's no surprise he's the Kobe fan in this discussion, as Kobe will never be mentioned around these parts.

Fair enough. Maybe that's what has the guy worked up. The 'miles ahead' comment. He's still better in my opinion and I watched them both. Penny wouldn't have been drubbing prime Lebron.

Kobe. You're right. For some reason, the worst fanboys on here are the Kobe fans. Not a single logical argument. 81. 5 rings. Eye test.
It's so predictable and silly that it's not worth the time anymore. It's like a cult with their blind worshipping of their God.

imnew09

02-12-2015, 05:11 PM

prime lebron is super underrated on defense, he could legit stop anyone when he tried (i'd go as far as saying he could even defend prime shaq).

Please pull Lebron's d*** out of your mouth....

Where my man Kobe at! No.1 Lockdown defender

Mr Feeny

02-12-2015, 05:13 PM

:sleeping

I'm "reading" box scores (data noted after actually playing the game), because you can't prove a thing you say. Clown.

Once again, LeBron in his prime has a 102 defensive-rating whereas Pippen, in his, had a 101. For their careers, they're both at 102; unfortunately, LeBron's will only plummet. RAPM and defensive winshares also say Pippen was a better defensive player than LeBron ever was.

I think we need to put you on timeout. Lying about numbers and making shit up is grounds for a ban. :lol

Yawn. This is getting tedious. How many brain cells do you have?

Lebron in his Miami prime is at 101.
Pippen is at 102. Don't cherry pick prime Pippen years as you like.

For their careers they're tied despite the fact that Lebron doesn't have the luxury of playing with another 2 of the top 10 defenders of all time.

Yawn. Yawn. Yawn. Game. Set. Match. We can do this all night. You have no clue what you're talking about.

ArbitraryWater

02-12-2015, 05:13 PM

Fair enough. Maybe that's what has the guy worked up. The 'miles ahead' comment. He's still better in my opinion and I watched them both. Penny wouldn't have been drubbing prime Lebron.

Kobe. You're right. For some reason, the worst fanboys on here are the Kobe fans. Not a single logical argument. 81. 5 rings. Eye test.
It's so predictable and silly that it's not worth the time anymore. It's like a cult with their blind worshipping of their God.

http://i.gyazo.com/30eace52d2f439d94f9af17e0b7871b3.png

case in point.. beautiful beautiful.. and Keno honestly can't be a LeBron fan lol.. at least a troll.

Smoke117

02-12-2015, 05:14 PM

would you rank KG higher than ben wallace in their defensive games?

At their peaks it's Ben Wallace for sure. He has a peak up their with Hakeem and Robinson, but Garnett did it at an elite level longer. He didn't peak as high in impact, but he was still elite, and for much longer period of time. Kevin Garnett is basically a big man version of Scottie Pippen. Ben Wallace still belongs on this list. Frankly, I would start this list over by removing all the perimeter players because not one of them comes close to having the impact of any of the most dominant defensive big men.

Mr Feeny

02-12-2015, 05:14 PM

[/B]

Please pull Lebron's d*** out of your mouth....

Where my man Kobe at! No.1 Lockdown defenderAbsolutely.

tpols

02-12-2015, 05:14 PM

Didn't Lebron force him into an air ball with the championship on the line in the final seconds and then hold him scoreless the entire overtime before holding him to 3-12 in game 7. Come on man! Are you guys COMPLETELY incapable of giving credit to a player you hate.

I already said his numbers got fked by the spurs choking that game away.

1) LeBron did not guard Tony Parker for the full game durations.. I don't know why you guys insist on lying and using his shooting numbers for whole games.

2) when LeBron did guard Tony Parker.. And he guarded him pretty good.. Was shadowing perfect like he did Rose.. But it didn't matter because Parker sunk the shots with LeBron on him. When you close a game, and a 1/100 situation comes up where your coach and fellow teammates choke the game away the momentum is gone. Nobody is winning an OT where they give all the momentum up like that. That ray shot was one of the most devastating shots in the history of basketball. Like I said his numbers did get fked by that shot and the collapse. He did everything he had to to win.. Right on LeBron.

Demon Lizard

02-12-2015, 05:15 PM

[/B]

Please pull Lebron's d*** out of your mouth....

Where my man Kobe at! No.1 Lockdown defender

Points out that LeBron's D is overrated. Proceeds to call Kobe #1. :yaohappy:

T_L_P

02-12-2015, 05:15 PM

And I think if we are talking about peaks, there is more leeway with the perimeter players.

Kobe, LeBron, even Jordan and Pippen (to an extent) fluctuated greatly from season-to-season. With bigs the defense is usually a lot more consistent, for a longer period of time (you need insane stamina to be able to play lock down defense on the wing and still contribute offensively).

For example, I'd put peak AK47 > any wing player defensively, but Pippen and Payton were defensive juggernauts for much longer.

I'd take prime Wallace > any big man defensively (haven't seen enough of Russell/Thurmond so I can't comment on them), but Duncan and Garnett and Hakeem sustained their defensive dominance longer.

If we're going off peaks, I can see LeBron getting there (contextualised per position, of course, though he still wouldn't make my list). But Bowen, Moncrief, etc sustained it.

kuniva_dAMiGhTy

02-12-2015, 05:19 PM

Yawn. This is getting tedious. How many brain cells do you have?

Lebron in his Miami prime is at 101.
Pippen is at 102. Don't cherry pick prime Pippen years as you like.

For their careers they're tied despite the fact that Lebron doesn't have the luxury of playing with another 2 of the top 10 defenders of all time.

Yawn. Yawn. Yawn. Game. Set. Match. We can do this all night. You have no clue what you're talking about.

Wrong again. Lebron in his prime, from 2006-now, has a 102 DRtg.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html

Pippen's prime began in 1990, the year he became an All Star. Common knowledge. Well, maybe not for you, as I'm fairly certain you didn't actually watch the 90's Bulls and you're just making shit up.

Pippen also has higher defensive metrics in RAPM and winshares (better individual defensive stats).

Keep trying though. I got facts for days - you got...nothing

Milbuck

02-12-2015, 05:21 PM

Nah, I think you're right and wrong... I mean, kuniva or Smoke are reasonable as well, LeBron wasn't "miles ahead of Pippen", but he was still elite like you say.

tpols just is incapable of making a solid argument (and imdaman seems to be dumb all-around). This guy really mentioned a Parker 3 in a game in which LeBron completely shut him down, and a Terry shot with LeBron right in his face. It's no surprise he's the Kobe fan in this discussion, as Kobe will never be mentioned around these parts.
Here you go again attacking posters' credibilities and then spewing blatantly biased nonsense yourself. If we're willing to look around a huge chunk of Lebron's career where he was a poor or lazy defender, like early in his career and the last couple years, and look purely at his peak defense..we ought to do the same with Kobe. And Kobe at his defensive peak was one of the most tenacious defenders ever. Just lol at you acting like Lebron is some transcendent force and defensive peak Kobe is some run of the mill defender.

jlip

02-12-2015, 05:22 PM

6 players from 80s to 90s (start of modern era)

3 players from 00s to today (current era)

1 player from 50s to 70s (old/weak era)

There you have it folks. Goes to show which era is the "best" (quotation marks because 'best' is subjective).

Or it simply shows you how potentially ignorant SI writers are of the league before 1980 therefore disqualifying their ability to make legitimate greatest "ever" or "all time" lists.

Also the quoted post is the textbook definition of this. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias)

Smoke117

02-12-2015, 05:22 PM

Here you go again attacking posters' credibilities and then spewing blatantly biased nonsense yourself. If we're willing to look around a huge chunk of Lebron's career where he was a poor or lazy defender, like early in his career and the last couple years, and look purely at his peak defense..we ought to do the same with Kobe. And Kobe at his defensive peak was one of the most tenacious defenders ever. Just lol at you acting like Lebron is some transcendent force and defensive peak Kobe is some run of the mill defender.

Kobe's defensive peak lasted exactly...ONE SEASON: 2000. Once he decided he was going to score more he never put in the effort like that game in, game out ever again. It fluctuated regularly up and down...but it would never peak that high again.

ArbitraryWater

02-12-2015, 05:23 PM

Here you go again attacking posters' credibilities and then spewing blatantly biased nonsense yourself. If we're willing to look around a huge chunk of Lebron's career where he was a poor or lazy defender, like early in his career and the last couple years, and look purely at his peak defense..we ought to do the same with Kobe. And Kobe at his defensive peak was one of the most tenacious defenders ever. Just lol at you acting like Lebron is some transcendent force and defensive peak Kobe is some run of the mill defender.

Except Kobe version doesn't touch LeBron 2010-2013.. hell, in 2006 LeBron already worked harder on that end, he wasn't "lazy". He was helly lazy last regular season, but once again, stepped it up another notch in the post-season.

Dat 2000 tenacity though.

Mr Feeny

02-12-2015, 05:26 PM

Wrong again. Lebron in his prime, from 2006-now, has a 102 DRtg.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html

Pippen's prime began in 1990, the year he became an All Star. Common knowledge. Well, maybe not for you, as I'm fairly certain you didn't actually watch the 90's Bulls and you're just making shit up.

Pippen also has higher defensive metrics in RAPM and winshares (better individual defensive stats).

Keep trying though. I got facts for days - you got...nothing
Why are you cherry picking whatever years you decide are prime years. Here are the only facts:

Yawn. This is getting tedious. How many brain cells do you have?

Lebron in his Miami prime is at 101.
Pippen is at 102. Don't cherry pick prime Pippen years as you like.

For their careers they're tied despite the fact that Lebron doesn't have the luxury of playing with another 2 of the top 10 defenders of all time.

Yawn. Yawn. Yawn. Game. Set. Match. We can do this all night. You have no clue what you're talking about.

Repeat ad infinitum. You're wasting your time. You have no clue what you're talking about. You're some punk kid on a laptop whose arguments ill pick apart all night long. You wana go that route keep playing.

Milbuck

02-12-2015, 05:26 PM

Except Kobe version doesn't touch LeBron 2010-2013.. hell, in 2006 LeBron already worked harder on that end, he wasn't "lazy". He was helly lazy last regular season, but once again, stepped it up another notch in the post-season.

Dat tenacity though.
Except that he does. "Doesn't touch Lebron" is just laughable. Kobe at his defensive best is on the short list for best man defenders of all time. Lebron is a better help defender. They're definitely comparable. We're not comparing Harden to Pippen, bud.

And lol at 2000 being his only good defensive season. Not even gonna get into that.

Mr Feeny

02-12-2015, 05:29 PM

Here you go again attacking posters' credibilities and then spewing blatantly biased nonsense yourself. If we're willing to look around a huge chunk of Lebron's career where he was a poor or lazy defender, like early in his career and the last couple years, and look purely at his peak defense..we ought to do the same with Kobe. And Kobe at his defensive peak was one of the most tenacious defenders ever. Just lol at you acting like Lebron is some transcendent force and defensive peak Kobe is some run of the mill defender.

Peak Lebron is a much better defender than peak Kobe tbf. Not many people dispute this.

Milbuck

02-12-2015, 05:30 PM

Peak Lebron is a much better defender than peak Kobe tbf. Not many people dispute this.
Yeah, and he's miles ahead of Pippen too. Stay educating.

Mr Feeny

02-12-2015, 05:31 PM

I don't need to "cherry pick" years. Those are LeBron and Pippen's prime years. Reality -- and if you don't like that? Pippen still has better numbers across the board in RAPM and defensive winshares (compare whatever YOU think their primes were, and he still comes up short).

Aww.. do I anger you? :lol

Until you can effectively prove LeBron is a better defender than Pippen, we'll just assume you're full of crap. Until then I suppose!
Yawn. This is getting tedious. How many brain cells do you have?

Lebron in his Miami prime is at 101.
Pippen is at 102. Don't cherry pick prime Pippen years as you like.

For their careers they're tied despite the fact that Lebron doesn't have the luxury of playing with another 2 of the top 10 defenders of all time.

Yawn. Yawn. Yawn. Game. Set. Match. We can do this all night. You have no clue what you're talking about.

Repeat ad infinitum.

Mr Feeny

02-12-2015, 05:32 PM

Yeah, and he's miles ahead of Pippen too. Stay educating.

Stay learning:cheers:

rmt

02-12-2015, 05:32 PM

Lebron doesn't belong on that list. It's criminal that B. Wallace and DRob aren't on that list.

lilteapot

02-12-2015, 05:32 PM

Yeah Lebron does not deserve to be there lol

kuniva_dAMiGhTy

02-12-2015, 05:32 PM

Why are you cherry picking whatever years you decide are prime years. Here are the only facts:

I don't need to "cherry pick" years. Those are LeBron and Pippen's prime years. Reality. IF you don't like that? Well, Pippen still has better numbers across the board in DRPM and defensive winshares (compare whatever YOU think their primes were, and he still comes up short).

Yawn. This is getting tedious. How many brain cells do you have?

Aww.. do I anger you? :lol

Until you can effectively prove LeBron is a better defender than Pippen, we'll just assume you're full of crap. Until then I suppose!

Mr Feeny

02-12-2015, 05:34 PM

Except that he does. "Doesn't touch Lebron" is just laughable. Kobe at his defensive best is on the short list for best man defenders of all time. Lebron is a better help defender. They're definitely comparable. We're not comparing Harden to Pippen, bud.

And lol at 2000 being his only good defensive season. Not even gonna get into that.

At no point in Kobe's career would Kobe's own parents argue he's on the list of greatest man defenders of all time.

Smoke117

02-12-2015, 05:34 PM

Yawn. This is getting tedious. How many brain cells do you have?

Lebron in his Miami prime is at 101.
Pippen is at 102. Don't cherry pick prime Pippen years as you like.

For their careers they're tied despite the fact that Lebron doesn't have the luxury of playing with another 2 of the top 10 defenders of all time.

Yawn. Yawn. Yawn. Game. Set. Match. We can do this all night. You have no clue what you're talking about.

Repeat ad infinitum.

Uh...you realize Pippen was more dominant in 94 with Jordan gone and even more dominant in 95 with Grant and Jordan gone...right? You are talking about these luxuries when Pippens defense was at its most impactful and dominate when Jordan wasn't even there. His drating is at it's lowest when Jordan wasn't there...good call though.

Mr Feeny

02-12-2015, 05:35 PM

I don't need to "cherry pick" years. Those are LeBron and Pippen's prime years. Reality. IF you don't like that? Well, Pippen still has better numbers across the board in DRPM and defensive winshares (compare whatever YOU think their primes were, and he still comes up short).

Aww.. do I anger you? :lol

Until you can effectively prove LeBron is a better defender than Pippen, we'll just assume you're full of crap. Until then I suppose!

Yawn. This is getting tedious. How many brain cells do you have?

Lebron in his Miami prime is at 101.
Pippen is at 102. Don't cherry pick prime Pippen years as you like.

For their careers they're tied despite the fact that Lebron doesn't have the luxury of playing with another 2 of the top 10 defenders of all time.

Yawn. Yawn. Yawn. Game. Set. Match. We can do this all night. You have no clue what you're talking about.

Repeat ad infinitum

kuniva_dAMiGhTy

02-12-2015, 05:36 PM

Yawn. This is getting tedious. How many brain cells do you have?

Lebron in his Miami prime is at 101.
Pippen is at 102. Don't cherry pick prime Pippen years as you like.

For their careers they're tied despite the fact that Lebron doesn't have the luxury of playing with another 2 of the top 10 defenders of all time.

Yawn. Yawn. Yawn. Game. Set. Match. We can do this all night. You have no clue what you're talking about.

Repeat ad infinitum

Uh oh! Somebody pooped their big boy pants again.. :oldlol:

In their primes, Pippen had a better DRtg, DRPM, and more defensive win shares (as he does career vs career).

So please effectively prove how LeBron is a better defender than Pippen. We'll wait.

Mr Feeny

02-12-2015, 05:38 PM

Uh oh! Somebody pooped his big boy pants again.. :oldlol:

In their primes, Pippen had a better DRtg, DRPM, and more defensive win shares (as he does career vs career).

So please effectively prove how LeBron is a better defender than Pippen. We'll wait.

Yawn. This is getting tedious. How many brain cells do you have?

Lebron in his Miami prime is at 101.
Pippen is at 102. Don't cherry pick prime Pippen years as you like.

For their careers they're tied despite the fact that Lebron doesn't have the luxury of playing with another 2 of the top 10 defenders of all time.

Yawn. Yawn. Yawn. Game. Set. Match. We can do this all night. You have no clue what you're talking about.

Repeat ad infinitum.

hitmanyr2k

02-12-2015, 05:38 PM

I already said his numbers got fked by the spurs choking that game away.

1) LeBron did not guard Tony Parker for the full game durations.. I don't know why you guys insist on lying and using his shooting numbers for whole games.

2) when LeBron did guard Tony Parker.. And he guarded him pretty good.. Was shadowing perfect like he did Rose.. But it didn't matter because Parker sunk the shots with LeBron on him. When you close a game, and a 1/100 situation comes up where your coach and fellow teammates choke the game away the momentum is gone. Nobody is winning an OT where they give all the momentum up like that. That ray shot was one of the most devastating shots in the history of basketball. Like I said his numbers did get fked by that shot and the collapse. He did everything he had to to win.. Right on LeBron.

People want to act like Lebron was on an island against Parker when Bosh was not only flanking Lebron he was also actually the one switching to guard Parker during late game situations. When the games were tight they built a wall around Parker (similar to Rose). Give credit to Spoeistra's defensive schemes.

Who's that switching onto Parker late in the game and coming up with the huge block in Game 6? Chris Bosh
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2r-ivyuxOnI#t=0m48s

Who switches on to Parker and completely cuts his penetration off and forces him back out to the perimeter where he has to hit an unbelievable shot with Lebron and Wade harrassing him? Chris Bosh
http://youtu.be/NAuQL70pxAg?t=5s

Lebron always got plenty of help defensively.

kuniva_dAMiGhTy

02-12-2015, 05:40 PM

Yawn. This is getting tedious. How many brain cells do you have?

Lebron in his Miami prime is at 101.
Pippen is at 102. Don't cherry pick prime Pippen years as you like.

For their careers they're tied despite the fact that Lebron doesn't have the luxury of playing with another 2 of the top 10 defenders of all time.

Yawn. Yawn. Yawn. Game. Set. Match. We can do this all night. You have no clue what you're talking about.

Repeat ad infinitum.

Once again, you're posting the wrong numbers:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html

As we can see, Pippen has more defensive winshares and more seasons of a 99 defensive-rating and/or lower.

To add onto that, Pippen also has a better DRPM ...

Repeating incorrect data just makes you look foolish. Try again.

Mr Feeny

02-12-2015, 05:40 PM

People want to act like Lebron was on an island against Parker when Bosh was not only flanking Lebron he was also actually the one switching to guard Parker during late game situations. When the games were tight they built a wall around Parker (similar to Rose). Give credit to Spoeistra's defensive schemes.

Who's that switching onto Parker late in the game and coming up with the huge block in Game 6? Chris Bosh
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2r-ivyuxOnI#t=0m48s

Who switches on to Parker and completely cuts his penetration off and forces him back out to the perimeter where he has to hit an unbelievable shot with Lebron and Wade harrassing him? Chris Bosh
http://youtu.be/NAuQL70pxAg?t=5s

Lebron always got plenty of help defensively.

Can't you day the same about every player though?

Mr Feeny

02-12-2015, 05:41 PM

Once again, you're posting the wrong numbers:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html

As we can see, Pippen has more defensive winshares and more seasons of a 99 defensive-rating and/or lower.

To add onto that, Pippen also has a higher DRPM ...

What were you saying again?

Yawn. This is getting tedious. How many brain cells do you have?

Lebron in his Miami prime is at 101.
Pippen is at 102. Don't cherry pick prime Pippen years as you like.

For their careers they're tied despite the fact that Lebron doesn't have the luxury of playing with another 2 of the top 10 defenders of all time.

Yawn. Yawn. Yawn. Game. Set. Match. We can do this all night. You have no clue what you're talking about.

Repeat ad infinitum.

kuniva_dAMiGhTy

02-12-2015, 05:43 PM

hitmanyr2k

02-12-2015, 05:45 PM

Mr Feeny

02-12-2015, 05:45 PM

Spamming the same thing over and over again won't change the fact Pippen has MORE seasons w/ a better defensive rating, more defensive winshares, and a better DRPM.

:cheers:
Yawn. This is getting tedious.

Lebron in his Miami prime is at 101.
Pippen is at 102. Don't cherry pick prime Pippen years as you like.

For their careers they're tied despite the fact that Lebron doesn't have the luxury of playing with another 2 of the top 10 defenders of all time.

Yawn. Yawn. Yawn. Game. Set. Match. We can do this all night. You have no clue what you're talking about.

Repeat ad infinitum.

Smoke117

02-12-2015, 05:46 PM

Yawn. This is getting tedious. How many brain cells do you have?

Lebron in his Miami prime is at 101.
Pippen is at 102. Don't cherry pick prime Pippen years as you like.

For their careers they're tied despite the fact that Lebron doesn't have the luxury of playing with another 2 of the top 10 defenders of all time.

Yawn. Yawn. Yawn. Game. Set. Match. We can do this all night. You have no clue what you're talking about.

Repeat ad infinitum.

Uh...You realize Pippens two most dominant seasons are in 94 and 95, right? When Jordan...wasn't there? His two lowest dratings are from those two seasons so what exactly does playing with Rodman and Jordan have to do with it...when he was at his most dominant when they were weren't even there? Good fail...keep it up.

hitmanyr2k

02-12-2015, 05:47 PM

Can't you day the same about every player though?

No, not every team employs the same defensive schemes as Spoelstra and not every team has a PF that can defend the perimeter like Bosh could. And that ends the myth that Lebron was the sole factor in Parker getting stopped.

kuniva_dAMiGhTy

02-12-2015, 05:48 PM

Yawn. This is getting tedious.

Lebron in his Miami prime is at 101.
Pippen is at 102. Don't cherry pick prime Pippen years as you like.

For their careers they're tied despite the fact that Lebron doesn't have the luxury of playing with another 2 of the top 10 defenders of all time.

Yawn. Yawn. Yawn. Game. Set. Match. We can do this all night. You have no clue what you're talking about.

Repeat ad infinitum.

Once again, I don't need to "cherry pick" numbers, as Pippen, irregardless of the number of seasons you claim to be his prime, has a better defensive RAPM, more defensive winshares, and more seasons with a 99 DRtg and/or lower (all with the 90s Bulls).

Like that? :pimp:

Mr Feeny

02-12-2015, 05:49 PM

No, not every team employs the same defensive schemes as Spoelstra and not every team has a PF that can defend the perimeter like Bosh could. And that ends the myth that Lebron was the sole factor in Parker getting stopped.I don't think anyone said he was the "sole" factor but that he shut Parker down. Which is accurate, isn't it?

Mr Feeny

02-12-2015, 05:49 PM

Once again, I don't need to "cherry pick" numbers, as Pippen, irregardless of the number of seasons you claim to be his prime, has a better defensive RAPM, more defensive winshares, and more seasons with a 99 DRtg and/or lower (all with the 90s Bulls).

Like that? :pimp:
Yawn. This is getting tedious.

Lebron in his Miami prime is at 101.
Pippen is at 102. Don't cherry pick prime Pippen years as you like.

For their careers they're tied despite the fact that Lebron doesn't have the luxury of playing with another 2 of the top 10 defenders of all time.

Yawn. Yawn. Yawn. Game. Set. Match. We can do this all night. You have no clue what you're talking about.

Repeat ad infinitum.

kuniva_dAMiGhTy

02-12-2015, 05:51 PM

Yawn. This is getting tedious.

Lebron in his Miami prime is at 101.
Pippen is at 102. Don't cherry pick prime Pippen years as you like.

For their careers they're tied despite the fact that Lebron doesn't have the luxury of playing with another 2 of the top 10 defenders of all time.

Yawn. Yawn. Yawn. Game. Set. Match. We can do this all night. You have no clue what you're talking about.

Repeat ad infinitum.

Once more, I don't need to "cherry pick" data when Pippen, during his time w/ the Bulls, has a better defensive rating, more defensive win shares, and a better defensive RAPM.

Spamming and pooping your pants doesn't change these facts. Hah!

Smoke117

02-12-2015, 05:52 PM

Yawn. This is getting tedious.

Lebron in his Miami prime is at 101.
Pippen is at 102. Don't cherry pick prime Pippen years as you like.

For their careers they're tied despite the fact that Lebron doesn't have the luxury of playing with another 2 of the top 10 defenders of all time.

Yawn. Yawn. Yawn. Game. Set. Match. We can do this all night. You have no clue what you're talking about.

Repeat ad infinitum.

Btw...someone who actually watched the players and can say something about it from that perspective...does not keep spamming this nonsense. Scottie Pippen was at his peak 20 years ago...I'd be surprised if you were even shitting on your own yet.

hitmanyr2k

02-12-2015, 05:52 PM

I don't think anyone said he was the "sole" factor but that he shut Parker down. Which is accurate, isn't it?

I didn't see anyone mentioning Chris Bosh when it came to Tony Parker's shooting stats either. You guys were the ones trying to say it was all Lebron :oldlol:

russwest0

02-12-2015, 05:52 PM

LeBron on the list, let alone above KG.... :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Most overrated player of all time?

Mr Feeny

02-12-2015, 05:53 PM

I didn't see anyone mentioning Chris Bosh when it came to Tony Parker's shooting stats either. You guys were the ones trying to say it was all Lebron :oldlol:

Who's you guys?
Could you find a single post in which anyone said it was "all" Lebron?

kuniva_dAMiGhTy

02-12-2015, 05:55 PM

Btw...someone who actually watched the players and can say something about it from that perspective...does not keep spamming this nonsense. Scottie Pippen was at his peak 20 years ago...I'd be surprised if you were even shitting on your own yet.

Pretty much. He's probably just some autistic LeBron kid who watched Pippen's highlights and made up his mind.

I'll give him the last word though. It'll probably make his day. :oldlol:

Mr Feeny

02-12-2015, 05:57 PM

Pretty much. He's probably just some autistic LeBron kid who watched Pippen's highlights and made up his mind.

I'll give him the last word though. It'll probably make his day. :oldlol:

Aww..Repeat. ad infinitum.:(

Smoke117

02-12-2015, 06:00 PM

Scottie Pippen in '95 (the year he got robbed of DPOY) anchored a team with no Jordan, no Grant, no Rodman, no Cartwright, no Scott Williams, no Luc Longley for (2 months) to the 2nd best defense in the league with Will Perdue as his starting center and musical chairs at the PF spot. Lead the team in damn near every category. Had the best defensive rating in the entire league at SF (which included great defensive centers like Olajuwon, D-Rob, Mutombo, Mourning, etc) and he was #2 in defensive win shares at 6.73, only .01 behind #1 which was D-Rob with 6.74. Amazing defensive season for a SF that should have been rewarded with some hardware.

Then the very next year they gave the DPOY to big mouth Gary Payton who didn't have anywhere close to the defensive impact that Pippen did but Payton and Karl basically campaigned for the freakin award.

Pretty much this. It's sad...the one season a perimeter player actually deserved it...they snubbed him. Then, the next season, they gave it to a perimeter player who didn't have close to the defensive impact Pippen had the season before or even during the 96 season. Frankly, it was David Robinson who should have been given the DPOY in 96 though. I'm not saying Pippen should have got it...but Gary certainly had no business receiving it. He wasn't even the most impactful defensive player on his team...his big man, SHAWN KEMP WAS. Just like Jermaine oneal was the most important defensive player with the biggest impact on the Pacers when Artest received it.

3ball

02-12-2015, 06:05 PM

LeBron/Pip/MJ/Jones/Moncrief can be somewhere below those... at the top for perimeter Players.

wow, MJ with all-time defense AND at least 20% more scoring than anyone on that list

Mr Feeny

02-12-2015, 06:07 PM

wow, MJ with all-time defense AND at least 20% more scoring than anyone on that list

Highest ppg average in NBA History
Highest playoff ppg average in NBA History

And possibly the greatest perimeter defender of all time. It's crazy.

pastis

02-12-2015, 06:21 PM

Kobe too high

:applause: :applause: :lol :lol :bowdown: :bowdown:

BigMacAttack

02-12-2015, 09:02 PM

What a ****ed up list. MJ 2nd?? Lebron onthere at all?? Dick riding f@ggots.

JohnFreeman

02-12-2015, 09:08 PM

Kobe too high
:oldlol:

mehyaM24

02-12-2015, 09:23 PM

lebron, russell and pippen :bowdown:

jordan :facepalm

mehyaM24

02-12-2015, 09:25 PM

Pippen himself wouldn't claim that he was a better defender than prime Jordan.
Lebron is underrated because he is hated.he guarded EVERYONE. At times against Boston, he guarded Allen, Pierce and KG.

THAT GAME 6 against Boston in 2012. Held Pierce to 4-18 shooting.
Games 6 and 7 of the NBA finals held Parker to 25%fg.
2011 ECF held the MVP to 10%fg on isolations.
He used to be insanely good before he lost his athleticism.

holy shit worst post ever. pippen would say he's a worse defender than jordan, despite being the bulls CLEAR best defender and lead playmaker on that end? LMAO tex winter and phil jackson disagree btw

lebron better than pippen on defense is arguable (i wouldn't claim that).. but that jordan stuff? do us a favor and punch yourself in the *****.. :facepalm

LAZERUSS

02-12-2015, 10:28 PM

Russell
Wilt
Nate

and the rest.

BTW, Chamberlain is the greatest shot-blocker in NBA history, and by a mile.

Furthermore, Wilt reduced Russell's FG%'s far more than Russell did Wilt's. In fact, in their ten years in the league together, Wilt shot .520 against the entire NBA, while Russell shot .439 against the NBA in that same span. In their 143 career H2H's, Wilt outshot Russell by a .495 to .382 margin. BTW, Wilt shot .513 in his 49 post-season H2H's with Russell. Oh, and in their known career H2H's, Chamberlain was a FAR greater shot-blocker, as well. Not even close in that department.

Oh, and a 38-41 year old Kareem shot .607 against a 23-26 year old Hakeem in their 23 career matchups. And a 40 year old KAJ outscored a 25 year old Hakeem in their matchups, while outshooting him by a .567 to .403 margin. Furthermore, a 38-39 year old Kareem, in ten straight H2H's, averaged 32 ppg on a .630 FG% against a 23-24 year old Hakeem, which included three games of 40+ (40, 43, and 46 points.)

How about a PEAK Kareem against an aging Wilt in their 28 career H2H's, with 27 of them against a 34+ year old Wilt, playing on a surgically repaired knee... a .464 FG% (KAJ shot .559 over the course of his entire career BTW.) Oh, and in their last ten straight H2H's...Wilt held Kareem to a .434 FG%. In his last season in the league, Wilt outshot Kareem in their six H2H's by a .737 to .450 margin, which included one game in which he outscored Kareem, 24-21, while outshooting him from the field by a 10-14 to 10-27 margin.

How about Wilt against Thurmond. He outshot Nate in their known career H2H's by a .540 to ... get this... .360 margin!

In the '68 playoffs, Chamberlain ousthot Bellamy by a .584 to .421 margin...in a season in which Bellamy had shot .541 against the NBA.

In his very last NBA season, and in five H2H's with 6-11 HOFer Bob Lanier, Chamberlain outshot Lanier by a .764 to .374 margin.

Year-after-year, Chamberlain dramatically reduced his opposing center's FG%'s...all while blocking 8+ shots per game.

Wilt was voted First Team All-Defense in his LAST TWO seasons, and has the award existed in the 60's, he likely would have won it in '67 and '68, and perhaps in '64, as well.

Oh, and how about single season Defensive Win Shares?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/dws_season.html

Russell has the top 6, while Wilt has the next two highest. Interesting too, is that his '66-67 season is not one of them, in a season in which he reduced Russell to a .358 shooter in the EDF's, and Thurmond to a .343 shooter in the Finals (and BTW, he outshot Thurmond in the regular season in their six H2H's by a .633 to .320 margin.)

Again...

Russell
Wilt (but a peak Wilt was right there with Russell)
Thurmond

and the rest...well behind.

CavaliersFTW

02-12-2015, 10:33 PM

LMAO

No Wilt?

Dikembe over Thurmond or Wilt is hilarious :oldlol:

CavaliersFTW

02-12-2015, 10:34 PM

Also :roll: at Dennis Rodman

Gus Johnson or Satch Sanders >>>> Dennis Rodman

LAZERUSS

02-12-2015, 10:46 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=splnUR-52jM

DatAsh

02-13-2015, 12:37 AM

Also :roll: at Dennis Rodman

Gus Johnson or Satch Sanders >>>> Dennis Rodman

Huh?

Usually I agree with you, but Dennis is easily one of the best perimeter defenders ever, certainly above Sanders, and way above Gus.

sundizz

02-13-2015, 12:41 AM

1990's and and on list of top 10:

1. The Dream
2. Mount Mutombo
3. Big Ben
4. Scottie Pippen
5. The Admiral
6. Dwight Howard
7. Kevin Garnett/Tim Duncan
8. Michael Jordan
9. Gary Payton
10. Kobe Bryant

Jud

02-13-2015, 12:43 AM

Jordan over Hakeem :roll:

LeBron at 8? :oldlol: AND over KG and Deke? :roll:

DatAsh

02-13-2015, 12:46 AM

LAZERUSS

02-13-2015, 01:25 AM

Looks like they're just giving equal credit to bigs and smalls and judging more or less relative to role. Going with that, it's not that terrible of a list. Defense is such a subjective thing anyway.

1. Russell
2. Hakeem
3. Duncan
4. Garnett
5. Mutombo

1. Jordan
2. Rodman
3. Payton
4. Pippen
5. Lebron

Only guy that really sticks out imo is Lebron, but the rest is fine for a subjective measure such as this. Russell and Hakeem would be my top 2 defenders. I'd have Thurmond/Wilt/Robinson over Duncan/Garnett/Mutombo, but those guys are up there in the conversation. Jordan, Pippen, Moncrief, and Rodman would probably be my top perimeter guys - in no order - and 3 of them are listed there.

Now, if they actually think Jordan was a better defender than Olajuwon, they're crazy.

You have Hakeem above Wilt?

I respect your opinions as much as anyone here, but I just can't believe that one.

A 23-26 year old Hakeem was just destroyed by a 38-41 year old Kareem. And a young Shaq just abused a prime Hakeem. And later a prime Shaq crushed an aging Hakeem. And yet, a peak Shaq's high game against Hakeem was 37 points, while a 38-39 year old Kareem was routinely hanging 40+ on a 23-24 year old Hakeem (and on unfathomable efficiency too.) In fact, Hakeem's coach was chatised for allowing the bloodshed in a 46 point game onslaught (and in only 37 minutes.) Oh, and a 35-36 year old Gilmore averaged 24 ppg on a .677 FG% in his ten straight H2H's with a 23-24 year old Hakeem.

DatAsh

02-13-2015, 01:26 AM

You have Hakeem above Wilt?

I respect your opinions as much as anyone here, but I just can't believe that one.

Yeah, just barely. Wilt peaked higher though imo.

Mr. Jabbar

02-13-2015, 01:29 AM

good aprils fools list

LAZERUSS

02-13-2015, 01:38 AM

Yeah, just barely. Wilt peaked higher though imo.

I think you are under-estimating Wilt's defensive impact from day one. For example, the newspaper accounts of the '62 EDF's (a seven game series in which Boston eked out a two point win in game seven) credited Wilt's DEFENSE with keeping the Sixers in that game. Oh, and a Wilt who was determined to completely shutdown a 31 ppg scoring Bellamy in their first H2H, shut him out in the first half...en route to outscoring him by a 52-14 margin. And speaking of the Wilt-Bellamy H2H's...Bellamy had as much offensive success against Russell in his career H2H's with him, as he did against Wilt...except that while he was outscoring and outshooting Russell, Chamberlain was just annhilating him on the offensive end.

And Wilt's defensive impact in his '64 season is well-documented. Arguably one of the greatest defensive seasons in NBA history.

Demon Lizard

02-13-2015, 01:41 AM

Huh?

Usually I agree with you, but Dennis is easily one of the best perimeter defenders ever, certainly above Sanders, and way above Gus.

He wasn't too shabby at guarding post players as well.

LAZERUSS

02-13-2015, 01:41 AM

Yeah, just barely. Wilt peaked higher though imo.

BTW, I would say that Wilt was the second best one-on-on defending center in NBA history, and right behind Thurmond in that regard (and ahead of Russell). And Wilt was easily the greatest rim-protector in NBA history. Russell's edge would be team defense and court coverage.

LAZERUSS

02-13-2015, 01:42 AM

He wasn't too shabby at guarding post players as well.

Agreed.

Just ask Shaq...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wg3BiOw4TWo

L.Kizzle

02-13-2015, 01:43 AM

List is terrible.

One guy between 1956-1969 and the other 9 guys were all 1984 or after ...

CavaliersFTW

02-13-2015, 01:52 AM

Huh?

Usually I agree with you, but Dennis is easily one of the best perimeter defenders ever, certainly above Sanders, and way above Gus.
I'm maybe just not aware enough. Can you provide some first hand accounts of players/coaches saying this?

Satch Sanders and Gus Johnson are the best 2 defensive forwards of the sixties-early 70's, and both almost unanimously. With all players of that generation that get questioned on the subject naming one, or the other, or both as the best defensive forwards they played against for example Elgin Baylor mentions both of them as the best defenders he ever went up against, and Earl Monroe says Gus is perhaps the best defensive forward ever due to his ability to defend the full guard-center position. If you're the best defender in the span of a decade at your position you've got to be among the tops all-time so even if Dennis does have lots of praise, why would you feel it isn't close?

Another guy I'll mention who gets the similar nods as Satch and Johnson only from a later time is Bobby Jones.

Dennis Rodman is an all-time rebounder, I definitely read the anecdotes of that praise all the time and can see his rebounding on film. But I haven't read too much praise on his defense. And I tend to believe guys sweeping up boards aren't always playing great defense, just from watching Kevin Love. I can see he's versatile as in willing to defend many positions, but as far as effectiveness at defending many positions I would need more testimony from players he was defending to form a solid opinion. It's one thing to go out there and try and be willing to defend someone, it's another thing to actually impede their progress to the degree they call you one of the best all-time (or best of a particular generation) at it.

DatAsh

02-13-2015, 01:53 AM

I think you are under-estimating Wilt's defensive impact from day one. For example, the newspaper accounts of the '62 EDF's (a seven game series in which Boston eked out a two point win in game seven) credited Wilt's DEFENSE with keeping the Sixers in that game. Oh, and a Wilt who was determined to completely shutdown a 31 ppg scoring Bellamy in their first H2H, shut him out in the first half...en route to outscoring him by a 52-14 margin. And speaking of the Wilt-Bellamy H2H's...Bellamy had as much offensive success against Russell in his career H2H's with him, as he did against Wilt...except that while he was outscoring and outshooting Russell, Chamberlain was just annhilating him on the offensive end.

And Wilt's defensive impact in his '64 season is well-documented. Arguably one of the greatest defensive seasons in NBA history.

I don't think I'm underestimating Wilt's defense. I'm pretty much the only guy on here that thinks Wilt's defense > Wilt's offense. I think you're underestimating Hakeem's defense though, and I know you despise Hakeem.

I'm much less concerned with a centers ability to limit his opposing matchup than you are it seems. I'm more concerned with his team defense, and his ability to limit the offense of the other team. If I were to put weights to it, I'd say 80-90% team defense and 10-20% individual matchup defense.

Anyway, the difference between Wilt and Hakeem is pretty tiny for me, as Wilt also happens to be one of the best team defenders ever as well.

LAZERUSS

02-13-2015, 02:00 AM

I don't think I'm underestimating Wilt's defense. I'm pretty much the only guy on here that thinks Wilt's defense > Wilt's offense. I think you're underestimating Hakeem's defense though, and I know you despise Hakeem.

I'm much less concerned with a centers ability to limit his opposing matchup than you are it seems. I'm more concerned with his team defense, and his ability to limit the offense of the other team. If I were to put weights to it, I'd say 80-90% team defense and 10-20% individual matchup defense.

Anyway, the difference between Wilt and Hakeem is pretty tiny for me, as Wilt also happens to be one of the best team defenders ever as well.

I don't "despise" Hakeem. I just think he is vastly over-rated here. I have him around 10-12 all-time, and I think based on career accomplishments, that is very reasonable. Furthermore, just look at the MVP voting in Hakeem's 18 seasons. TEN times he was in the Top-10, and out of that, only FOUR times in the Top-4 (one MVP, one 2nd, and two 4ths.)

And I just watched a helpless Hakeem get murdered by a shell of a prime Kareem. And I still say that Shaq easily outplayed Hakeem in the '94 Finals. Hakeem's TEAMMATES just waxed Shaq's though. And later on a more prime Shaq just overwhelmed a fading Hakeem.

Even Hakeem's two rings are somewhat questionable. MJ didn't play in the '94 post-season, and yet the 55-27 Bulls lost a close (and controversial) seven game series to the 56-26 Knicks...who would go on to lose a close seven game series against Hakeem's 58-24 Rockets (and the Knicks outscored Houston in that series.) And again, without Hakeem's teammates completely dominating Shaq's teammates in the '95 Finals, he would have had one less ring.

Young X

02-13-2015, 02:16 AM

Bad list. Too many perimeter players, not enough all time great defensive anchors like Ben Wallace, David Robinson, Ewing or even Dwight.

Fire Colangelo

02-13-2015, 03:03 AM

I really really really hate lists like these that include Russell, but not Wilt.

Leave them both off if you wanna roll with the weak era agenda for all I care, but to include Russell and exclude Wilt is just :facepalm :facepalm

I honestly don't understand why people have Russell as one of the GOATs, at least Wilt has the stats. What does Russell have other than defense and good teammates? Oh right, intangibles :oldlol: .

Swap teammates and Wilt has 11+ rings in place of Russell. Put Thurmond in place of Russell, and they have similar success.

Mr Feeny

02-13-2015, 03:07 AM

T_L_P

02-13-2015, 04:03 AM

What does Russell have other than defense and good teammates? Oh right, intangibles :oldlol:

Look at the thread title. :biggums:

Fire Colangelo

02-13-2015, 04:16 AM

Yeah but that's not the argument. Wilt is 10 times the offensive player that Russell was but he's nowhere near him on defense. That's what's being discussed here. Defense. Not overall play.

I wouldnt say no where near.

I've never seen Russell play (other than a few footages) so his defense could be a myth more than anything. However, from the limited games i've seen from old wilt, he's just as dominant on the boards if not more dominant, and a dominant defender as well.

I just find it so crazy how someone who we literally have no footage of - just myths ans stories - can be considered the best defender.

jlip

02-13-2015, 09:28 AM

I honestly don't understand why people have Russell as one of the GOATs, at least Wilt has the stats. What does Russell have other than defense and good teammates? Oh right, intangibles :oldlol: .

Stats, records, mvps, and titles?

I wouldnt say no where near.

I've never seen Russell play (other than a few footages) so his defense could be a myth more than anything. However, from the limited games i've seen from old wilt, he's just as dominant on the boards if not more dominant, and a dominant defender as well.

I just find it so crazy how someone who we literally have no footage of - just myths ans stories - can be considered the best defender.

The testimonies regarding Russell's defensive superiority are practically unanimous and are from first hand accounts while he was playing. The players, coaches, and fans who either played against or watched him, for all intents and purposes said the exact same thing regarding his defense while they were watching and playing against him.

sd3035

02-13-2015, 10:01 AM

LOL what is Lebron doing on that list, is that photoshopped?

kshutts1

02-13-2015, 11:08 AM

Not doing this in too much order, because I'm not knowledgeable enough.

But unless wings are consciously being put ahead of more deserving bigs to have a well-rounded list, it's a complete fail. Everyone agrees it is terrible, though. Let's all start with our own lists!

Again, no real order:
Russell
Wilt
Thurmond
Jones
Hakeem
Duncan
KG
Big Ben
Dikembe
Robinson
(Rodman just misses cut)

I truly don't see how a wing has any place amongst those players.

Now to do wings...

Jordan
Pippen
Coop
Moncrief
Rodman
West
Payton
Lebron
are all locks. The following are a smattering of players with a good case to be on the list...
DeBusschere
NVL
Sloan
Allen
Artest
Bowen
Stockton

jlip

02-13-2015, 12:29 PM

He may not be in the first tier of dominant defensive bigs, but I do believe that Kareem's defense is greatly underated.

He has all of the stats and the resume' of an all time great defender.

He was basically a top 5 rebounder for a decade. The NBA didn't count blocked shots until his 4th season, but over the next nine years he led the league 4 times and was top 3 five other times. He has 5 all defensive 1st and 6 all defensive 2nd teams to his name. It should be remembered that "All NBA teams" have only one center but two guards and forwards. Finally ThaRegul8r posted some time ago that the '70-'74 Bucks defense, anchored by Kareem, held their opponents to the lowest fg% allowed in the league.

Demon Lizard

02-13-2015, 12:30 PM

Look at the thread title. :biggums:

:lol

ThunderLips

02-13-2015, 12:50 PM

I don't care what anyone says.

Prime Dennis Rodman was the game's greatest defender, ever. Dude was an animal.

SexSymbol

02-13-2015, 01:41 PM

****ing bron? In the top 10 ? He's not top 40 in perimeter players let alone all bigs.
Jordan above Pippen Rodman Duncan is very questionable.
Where's cooper, bowen?
And Ben Wallace is a top 5 defensive player ever easily

AirBourne92

02-13-2015, 01:59 PM

wow bill russell at number1 and lebron being even mentioned in the list

LMFAO

garbage ass list

journalists these days are so pathetic

cltcfn2924

02-14-2015, 10:39 AM

Thurmond (not even mentioned wow)
Jabbar
Wilt
Wallace (though he was on there already)
Robinson
Howard
Cowens (?)

LeBron/Pip/MJ/Jones/Moncrief can be somewhere below those... at the top for perimeter Players.

Not Cowens, however Hondo was the greatest perimeter defender I ever saw. Hiw old is this SI writer, 20?

LAZERUSS

02-14-2015, 10:57 AM

No mention of Michael Cooper? A DPOY and the legendary "Bird-stopper."

How about Jerry West? King of the guards with blocks-steals.

Walt Frazier?

And Jlip brought up a peak Kareem. Just check out the Bucks defensive stats from '71 thru '74? Among the greatest defensive teams of all-time.

Thurmond...who reduced a peak Kareem to a horrific shooter in their career H2H's? And yet Hakeem is on the list, and a shell-of-a-Kareem just crushed him in their career H2H's?

Obviously this "panel-of-experts" are either in their teens, senile, suffer from amnesia, or just awoke from a long coma.