Who had the worst supporting cast to ever win a championship?

[SouBeachTalents]

The nominees with the strongest cases imo

Rick Barry- 1975 Warriors
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/GSW/1975.html

Hakeem- 1994 Rockets
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/HOU/1994.html

Duncan- 2003 Spurs
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/SAS/2003.html

Dirk- 2011 Mavs
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/DAL/2011.html

Who you guys got? Anyone else you think deserves to be mentioned along with these 4?

[HOoopCityJones]

Rick Barry and it's not even close.

[hawke812]

Kobe Bryant-All five of his rings.

[livinglegend]

2013 heat has to be in that list. Big names, but production wise they sucked.

[Jlamb47]

2003 Spurs
Tony Parker second year in the NBA at 20 years old with no D
David Robinson last year in the NBA
Manu Ginobli was a rookie

Tim Duncan averaged 10 more points then the second leading scorer for the Spurs in the Finals 24 to 14(Tony Parker)

Duncan stats in the Finals

24.2 PPG 17 RPG 5.3 APG 1.0 SPG 5.3BPG

Also elite on both ends of the floor
He led the Spurs in every categorie except for steals

[ArbitraryWater]

I thought those 4 were established?

Anyway, Barry was easily the least impressive individually.

[JebronLames]

2013 heat has to be in that list. Big names, but production wise they sucked.
Yes, came here to post this. Bad matchups for bosh, and wade was garbage.

[Lexington Steel]

Hakeem.

[DMAVS41]

The nominees with the strongest cases imo

Rick Barry- 1975 Warriors
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/GSW/1975.html

Hakeem- 1994 Rockets
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/HOU/1994.html

Duncan- 2003 Spurs
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/SAS/2003.html

Dirk- 2011 Mavs
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/DAL/2011.html

Who you guys got? Anyone else you think deserves to be mentioned along with these 4?

Hard to say. I don't know enough about the 75 run (before my time)...

Duncan had a worse supporting cast than Hakeem and Dirk had, but the competition was pretty weak that year.

So it's hard to answer these questions.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Competition also matters much and should also be mention when this discussion comes up.

With that said, I'll probably say Rick Barry. Not to take anything away from his teammates though, they knew what to do and also played great D.

[HOoopCityJones]

2003 Spurs
Tony Parker second year in the NBA at 20 years old with no D
David Robinson last year in the NBA
Manu Ginobli was a rookie

Tim Duncan averaged 10 more points then the second leading scorer for the Spurs in the Finals 24 to 14(Tony Parker)

Duncan stats in the Finals

24.2 PPG 17 RPG 5.3 APG 1.0 SPG 5.3BPG

Also elite on both ends of the floor
He led the Spurs in every categorie except for steals

I agree with this. There's no doubt Tim did more for his Team than anyone on the list. But that wasn't how OP phrased the question.

[Roundball_Rock]

In before 3ball says Michael Jordan.

[Legends66NBA7]

Competition also matters much and should also be mention when this discussion comes up.

With that said, I'll probably say Rick Barry. Not to take anything away from his teammates though, they knew what to do and also played great D.

Wasn't Barry pretty good defensively thay season too ?

I've also read he got robbed of MVP that year.

[24-Inch_Chrome]

In before 3ball says Michael Jordan.

Damn, you beat me to it.

[Lebron23]

In before 3ball says Michael Jordan.


http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/mjl.gif

[J Shuttlesworth]

In before 3ball says Michael Jordan.
:roll: :roll:

[YouGotServed]

Harden - 2015 Rockets.

[Soundwave]

I wouldn't say Jordan, but if you want to go there ...

1998 NBA Finals (Bulls win in six)

Jordan - 33.5 ppg
Pippen - 15 ppg
Rodman - 3.3 ppg, 8.3 rpg

For Bran stans who cry about Wade and Bosh in the Finals, it's not like they were that far off from the above numbers.

2014 NBA Finals (Heat get clowned in five)

LeBron - 28 ppg
Wade - 15.2 ppg
Bosh - 14 ppg

[SouBeachTalents]

I wouldn't say Jordan, but if you want to go there ...

1998 NBA Finals

Jordan - 33.5 ppg
Pippen - 15 ppg
Rodman - 3.3 ppg, 8.3 rpg

For Bran stans who cry about Wade and Bosh in the Finals, it's not like they were that far off from the above numbers.

2014 NBA Finals

LeBron - 28 ppg
Wade - 15.2 ppg
Bosh - 14 ppg

But you just can't throw out ppg averages like that with zero context. Pippen was playing tremendous defense through the first 4 games of the Finals, and was even getting nods for Finals MVP. Wade played no defense, scored most of his paltry 15 ppg average with the games out of reach, and was absolutely abysmal in every way in the last 2 games of the Finals. Meanwhile Bosh got outperformed by Kukoc

[~primetime~]

Since I've been a fan...which started in the early 80s...I want to say Dirk in 2011

Chandler, Terry, Kidd, Marion, etc where great during that playoff run but there was really no solid #2 star

[Soundwave]

But you just can't throw out ppg averages like that with zero context. Pippen was playing tremendous defensive through the first 4 games of the Finals, and was even getting nods for Finals MVP. Wade played no defense, scored most of his paltry 15 ppg average with the games out of reach, and was absolutely abysmal in every way in the last 2 games of the Finals

Pippen was also injured for the last two games of that series and shot 41% overall, Rodman played like crap. Bulls still win.

That's Jordan at age 34/35 too having to burden that extra load, not a prime Duncan or LeBron who were in their 20s.

I doubt at age 34/35 you're getting a title from Duncan or LeBron with performances like that from their supporting cast.

Rodman in particular was pretty much done.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Wasn't Barry pretty good defensively thay season too ?

I've also read he got robbed of MVP that year.

I think so... From what I've seen he was a very high IQ player on both ends, smart, pretty good team defender, and also racked up them steals playing the passing lanes.

I forgot to talk about the team's rebounding also... They won it all (also the finals) mostly because of Rick Barry, rebounding and team defense.

[SouBeachTalents]

Pippen was also injured for the last two games of that series and shot 41% overall, Rodman played like crap. Bulls still win.

That's Jordan at age 34/35 too having to burden that extra load, not a prime Duncan or LeBron who were in their 20s.

I doubt at age 34/35 you're getting a title from Duncan or LeBron with performances like that from their supporting cast.

I agree with all of that. Jordan deserves a ton of credit for the '98 Finals, but imo he still got more help than LeBron did in 2014. But it's a testament to him that at 35 he could will his team to victory while LeBron at 29 could not

[Lebronxrings]

lebron 2013 and maybe 2012 in a sense.

[Quickening]

I agree with all of that. Jordan deserves a ton of credit for the '98 Finals, but imo he still got more help than LeBron did in 2014. But it's a testament to him that at 35 he could will his team to victory while LeBron at 29 could not

Miami got destroyed even though Lebron put up ridiculously good numbers, poor comparison... like saying why couldn't MJ will his team to the finals before he was entering his late 20s, because its a team sport.

[SouBeachTalents]

Miami got destroyed even though Lebron put up ridiculously good numbers, poor comparison... like saying why couldn't MJ will his team to the finals before he was entering his late 20s, because its a team sport.

Lol, that wasn't a shot at LeBron, I don't blame him for the 2014 Finals, there wasn't much more he could have done imo. I was just saying it's a testament to Jordan's greatness that at his age he was able to win the title with the amount of help he received in the Finals

[Roundball_Rock]

But you just can't throw out ppg averages like that with zero context. Pippen was playing tremendous defense through the first 4 games of the Finals, and was even getting nods for Finals MVP. Wade played no defense, scored most of his paltry 15 ppg average with the games out of reach, and was absolutely abysmal in every way in the last 2 games of the Finals. Meanwhile Bosh got outperformed by Kukoc

Exactly. Moreover, Pippen's overall scoring is mentioned even though he was no longer the #2 option in the final two games. Kukoc was the Bulls' best player in Game 5 with 30 points on 85%. The Bulls lost by two. They act as if when Pippen got hurt no one stepped up. :oldlol: For the series the "#2 option" averaged 21 ppg if you correctly substitute Kukoc in for the final 2 games.

Pippen averaged 20 ppg through the first four games but more importantly his defense led Chicago to 3 of their 4 wins (with his best game being a 10/4/4 game--that demolished the #1 Utah offense in a 96-54 win). That is hardly "winning with no help" but MJ stans will continue to claim otherwise.

[masonanddixon]

Yes, came here to post this. Bad matchups for bosh, and wade was garbage.

How do you account for the fact lebron was straight trash in 5 of those games and they still won?

[TheMan]

In before 3ball says Michael Jordan.
Predictably, a couple of LeStans like yourself actually trying to argue for LeBron 2013, lol :oldlol:

[Eric Cartman]

Wade in 2006.

Look at the rest of his teams shooting %.

[masonanddixon]

Wade in 2006.

Look at the rest of his teams shooting %.

I still cannot believe that piece of shit team won but I don't know if the supporting cast was shitty so much as Wade put on the greatest performance in a series ever.

[SouBeachTalents]

I still cannot believe that piece of shit team won but I don't know if the supporting cast was shitty so much as Wade put on the greatest performance in a series ever.

If we're talking the entire season, Wade would have no argument. Shaq averaged 20 & 9 on 60% in the regular season, a pace he maintained up until the Finals. Now, if we're talking Finals supporting cast, Wade would have as good an argument as anyone

[masonanddixon]

If we're talking the entire season, Wade would have no argument. Shaq averaged 20 & 9 on 60% in the regular season, a pace he maintained up until the Finals. Now, if we're talking Finals supporting cast, Wade would have as good an argument as anyone

He was pretty good in the regular season and playoffs from what I remember and he shot like 70% in the Finals en route to the greatest performance I have ever seen.

06-07 he played out of his mind (he was far better than Lebron ever was) too.

[SugarHill]

He was pretty good in the regular season and playoffs from what I remember and he shot like 70% in the Finals en route to the greatest performance I have ever seen.

06-07 he played out of his mind (he was far better than Lebron ever was) too.

Why are you so ridiculous? :rolleyes:

[SillyRabbit]

Coaching should be taken into account as well.

Duncan may have not had the strongest teammates but he had a GOAT coach.

It's easier to succeed under Gregg Popovich than it is with Al Attes (not taking anything away from Attles, but Popovich is better).

[Prime_Shaq]

Wade in 2006.

Look at the rest of his teams shooting %.
A team with Shaq is never bad :no:

[Spurs5Rings2014]

2003 Spurs
Tony Parker second year in the NBA at 20 years old with no D
David Robinson last year in the NBA
Manu Ginobli was a rookie

Tim Duncan averaged 10 more points then the second leading scorer for the Spurs in the Finals 24 to 14(Tony Parker)

Duncan stats in the Finals

24.2 PPG 17 RPG 5.3 APG 1.0 SPG 5.3BPG

Also elite on both ends of the floor
He led the Spurs in every categorie except for steals

:applause:

[masonanddixon]

Why are you so ridiculous? :rolleyes:

Because in 06-07 you had all the elite players of the MJ-era (except Shaq) in their prime.

Lebron's peak came in when everyone was on the decline and in far weaker competition. It's not about having an agenda, it's about the objective truth.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

LeBron James

[cltcfn2924]

Rick Barry and it's not even close.


Volume scoring prima donna. Lost another chance when he realized his teammates didn't rush to help him in a fight and stopped shooting. The year they did win, Wilkes made every big hoop they needed.

[cltcfn2924]

Bill Walton had a team full of misfits. This one isn't even close.

[livinglegend]

2003 Spurs
Tony Parker second year in the NBA at 20 years old with no D
David Robinson last year in the NBA
Manu Ginobli was a rookie

Tim Duncan averaged 10 more points then the second leading scorer for the Spurs in the Finals 24 to 14(Tony Parker)

Duncan stats in the Finals

24.2 PPG 17 RPG 5.3 APG 1.0 SPG 5.3BPG

Also elite on both ends of the floor
He led the Spurs in every categorie except for steals

Lebron scored 10 more points than the second leading scorer for the whole playoffs in 2013.

[coin24]

Kobe in 09 and 10.

The majority of those scrubs havnt even been in the league the last few years. Kobe made them all better..

Once leaving LA they all sucked again..

[livinglegend]

Because in 06-07 you had all the elite players of the MJ-era (except Shaq) in their prime.

Lebron's peak came in when everyone was on the decline and in far weaker competition. It's not about having an agenda, it's about the objective truth.

MJ didn't have much competition. His team was too stacked. His teammates won 55 games without him and would probably win the championship without him if the refs didn't cheat.

[MiseryCityTexas]

Smh @ the people saying Rick Barry's Warriors. Charles Johnson, Butch Beard, Clifford Ray, Phil Smith, Jeff Mullens, Bill Bridges, and Jamal Wilkes were all solid players smh. Rick Barry's Warriors was a lowkey stacked team. Hakeem's Rockets supporting cast was waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay worse than that.

[MiseryCityTexas]

Rockets supporting cast was so bad that they had no choice but to bring Sam Cassel off the bench, because Hakeem's bench was that weak. Scotty Brooks woulda been the best player off the bench if it weren't for Sam Cassel playing on that Rockets team, :oldlol: and why are the 2003 Spurs, and 2011 Mavs even in this discussion? Those teams were stacked as shit smh.

[MiseryCityTexas]

Smh @ the people saying Rick Barry's Warriors. Charles Johnson, Butch Beard, Clifford Ray, Phil Smith, Jeff Mullens, Bill Bridges, and Jamal Wilkes were all solid players smh. Rick Barry's Warriors was a lowkey stacked team. Hakeem's Rockets supporting cast was waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay worse than that.


On top of that Butch Beard, Jeff Mullens, Phil Smith, Bill Bridges and Jamal Wilkes were all All Star caliber players SMH. Mullens and Bridges were past their primes, but still brought veteran leadership, and Mullens was still a beast off the bench.

[Pointguard]

Rick Barry had the least help. He couldn't really depend on any offense at all outside of Wilkes who was a rookie that would just have bad games. In the finals, nobody on that team averaged 12ppg which would be like 10ppg now. And thru most of the playoffs they were playing superior defensive teams. I think it was in 9 of the 12 playoff wins, he had more than 30 points.

Hakeem had to do more than any other player - offensively and defensively, as their system wasn't that great either. Like Duncan, he nearly lead in every category along with being the defensive keg. Duncan had better defensive pieces, a better defensive system and champions on his squad.

[pauk]

Rick Barry by far.

[T_L_P]

I think it'd be Hakeem's Rockets.

It is worth mentioning though that his squad was built in pretty much the same way as other contenders: one superstar, another fringe star (even though Thorpe wasn't one imo), and a bunch of hard-nosed shooters.

--

I will say one thing: Duncan had to do more for his team than almost anyone other player ever has.

Both he and Hakeem had to take their teams to promised land. They were both the clear-cut 1st options on offense and defensive anchors. But, from watching the games, I don't think Hakeem was the team's playmaker (that was Sam Cassell and then Hakeem/Kenny when he was on the bench). Duncan was a legit quarterback from the post, and he was playing with just one or two above average passers (Manu and Speedy, maybe OAP Robinson too). And I also think 03 Playoff Duncan is superior to 94 Hakeem. And I think the difference between Duncan and his best teammate (Robinson) was bigger than Hakeem and his best teammate (Horry).

This is all moot though. Hakeem's team was weaker. Haven't seen enough footage of Barry's run to have any input there.

:oldlol: at 09/10 Kobe. :oldlol:

[rmt]

Wade in 2006.

Look at the rest of his teams shooting %.

A. Walker 40.3%
Shaq 61.2%
J. Williams 40.5%
Haslem 49.3%
Posey 43%
Payton 42.2%

Parker 40.3%
SJax 41.4%
Bowen 43.8%
Manu 38.6%
DRob 54.2%
Rose 41.9%



Coaching should be taken into account as well.

Duncan may have not had the strongest teammates but he had a GOAT coach.

It's easier to succeed under Gregg Popovich than it is with Al Attes (not taking anything away from Attles, but Popovich is better).

Do you really think that Pop was considered a GOAT coach in 2003 after winning one championship? Seriously, some people think that Pop, Parker (2nd year), Manu (rookie) were the same coach/players that they are today. Now he's considered a GOAT coach after 5 championships - not in 03 after one.


and why are the 2003 Spurs, and 2011 Mavs even in this discussion? Those teams were stacked as shit smh.

Second year players Parker and SJax and rookie Manu as the team's 2nd, 3rd and 4th options is not "stacked as shit." See their shooting percentages above.

[Uncle Drew]

Rockets supporting cast was so bad that they had no choice but to bring Sam Cassel off the bench, because Hakeem's bench was that weak. Scotty Brooks woulda been the best player off the bench if it weren't for Sam Cassel playing on that Rockets team, :oldlol: and why are the 2003 Spurs, and 2011 Mavs even in this discussion? Those teams were stacked as shit smh.
You crazy.

[MiseryCityTexas]

Rick Barry had the least help. He couldn't really depend on any offense at all outside of Wilkes who was a rookie that would just have bad games. In the finals, nobody on that team averaged 12ppg which would be like 10ppg now. And thru most of the playoffs they were playing superior defensive teams. I think it was in 9 of the 12 playoff wins, he had more than 30 points.

Hakeem had to do more than any other player - offensively and defensively, as their system wasn't that great either. Like Duncan, he nearly lead in every category along with being the defensive keg. Duncan had better defensive pieces, a better defensive system and champions on his squad.


**** outta here. Butch Beard was a beast when he played on that Warriors team and was an All Star the previous season, and Phil Smith was a solid role player that became an allstar later on in his career, while Clifford Ray was basically the Ben Wallace of the 70s who protected the paint, blocked shots, and rebounded his ass off. Charlie Johnson was a career role player, but he fitted in nicely in a BJ Armstrong clutch shooting role on the team knocking down every wide open shot he attempted damned near, While Jeff Mullens was added offensive firepower off the bench. Rick Barry had a lot of help on that team that somehow managed to beat a much better Bullets team on paper.

[MiseryCityTexas]

You crazy.

Mavs had Kidd, Dirk, Jet Terry, Stevenson's rare solid year in the league, Barrea, Defensive Player of the year in Tyson Chandler. That Mavs team was stacked.

Bruce Bowen, Steph Jack, Parker, Ginobili, prime Duncan, David Robinson, Malik Rose was actually a very solid roleplayer in 2003, Kevin Willis and Steve Smith were solid role players also = stacked Spurs team.

[MiseryCityTexas]

A. Walker 40.3%
Shaq 61.2%
J. Williams 40.5%
Haslem 49.3%
Posey 43%
Payton 42.2%

Parker 40.3%
SJax 41.4%
Bowen 43.8%
Manu 38.6%
DRob 54.2%
Rose 41.9%




Do you really think that Pop was considered a GOAT coach in 2003 after winning one championship? Seriously, some people think that Pop, Parker (2nd year), Manu (rookie) were the same coach/players that they are today. Now he's considered a GOAT coach after 5 championships - not in 03 after one.



Second year players Parker and SJax and rookie Manu as the team's 2nd, 3rd and 4th options is not "stacked as shit." See their shooting percentages above.

Shooting percentages don't mean shit. SJax and Manu were clutch as shit when it mattered in the NBA play-offs and NBA Finals.

[T_L_P]

Mavs had Kidd, Dirk, Jet Terry, Stevenson's rare solid year in the league, Barrea, Defensive Player of the year in Tyson Chandler. That Mavs team was stacked.

Bruce Bowen, Steph Jack, Parker, Ginobili, prime Duncan, David Robinson, Malik Rose was actually a very solid roleplayer in 2003, Kevin Willis and Steve Smith were solid role players also = stacked Spurs team.

Parker and SJAX had little to zero impact.

A PG who couldn't pass, shoot or defend, and was terribly inefficient (.468 TS%) is now a plus? :oldlol:

Willis and Kerr were very good in limited minutes (they payed like 105 minutes total over the Playoffs or something).

Steve Smith was an absolute bag of shit. You clearly haven't seen anything of that team if you think he was 'solid'. The dude was shooting 21% and not playing a lick of defense.

So it was 40 year old Robinson (who was very good in the Playoffs, but still a role player), rookie Manu (ditto), Bowen (ditto) and Malik Rose (ditto), along with a couple of 5 MPG players who played well in their minutes (Kerr, Willis, Speedy). Two of Duncan's four starting teammates weren't very good.

Also, why list Duncan? This thread is about his help. Without him that team wins 25 games.

Before the season 1 GM picked them to win it all. The Lakers and Mavs had much higher expectations, and they were favoured more entering the Playoffs too (and before their matchups with SA).

All of this spells 'stacked' to you?

Just a random tidbit: the Box +/- for the Playoffs has just been released. Duncan's 11.6 is the second best for a title run in NBA history (behind 91 Jordan).

His Box +/- is better than the rest of his teammates' combined (+4.7 for Manu, +4.1 for Robinson, +2.1 for Bowen, +.6 for Stephen Jackson, every other player was in the -s).

[TheMarkMadsen]

Parker and SJAX had little to zero impact.


Jax first round: 16/5/4

Parker first round: 14/2/3

Parker 2nd round: 15/3/4


Jax WCF: 16/3/3/2

Parker WCF: 16/3/4


ZERO IMPACT

:facepalm :facepalm

[MiseryCityTexas]

Parker and SJAX had little to zero impact.

A PG who couldn't pass, shoot or defend, and was terribly inefficient (.468 TS%) is now a plus? :oldlol:

Willis and Kerr were very good in limited minutes (they payed like 105 minutes total over the Playoffs or something).

Steve Smith was an absolute bag of shit. You clearly haven't seen anything of that team if you think he was 'solid'. The dude was shooting 21% and not playing a lick of defense.

So it was 40 year old Robinson (who was very good in the Playoffs, but still a role player), rookie Manu (ditto), Bowen (ditto) and Malik Rose (ditto), along with a couple of 5 MPG players who played well in their minutes (Kerr, Willis, Speedy). Two of Duncan's four starting teammates weren't very good.

Also, why list Duncan? This thread is about his help. Without him that team wins 25 games.

Before the season 1 GM picked them to win it all. The Lakers and Mavs had much higher expectations, and they were favoured more entering the Playoffs too (and before their matchups with SA).

All of this spells 'stacked' to you?

Just a random tidbit: the Box +/- for the Playoffs has just been released. Duncan's 11.6 is the second best for a title run in NBA history (behind 91 Jordan). His Box +/- is better than the rest of his teammates' combined (4.7 for Manu, 4.1 for Robinson, 2.1 for Bowen, .6 for Stephen Jackson, every other player was in the -s).


Steve Smith was old flabby and sick by the time he played for the Spurs but was still a good role player when he caught fire. Manu, SJax, and Tony Parker were all clutch in the 2003 NBA finals. The numbers don't lie, but the numbers don't tell the whole damned story when it comes to basketball. Stephen Jackson killed shit in the 2003 NBA finals.

[T_L_P]

Jax first round: 16/5/4

Parker first round: 14/2/3

Parker 2nd round: 15/3/4


Jax WCF: 16/3/3/2

Parker WCF: 16/3/4


ZERO IMPACT

:facepalm :facepalm

Cherry picking series are we? If a player is above average in one series and below average in the next, is he above average overall? That's what you are saying. :oldlol:

Parker was very good to close out the Lakers (games 5 and 6). But his overall series falls in line with the 15 Kobe trait: high Usage, good PPG numbers, but ultimately inefficient and not really positive (.485 TS%, 3rd worst ORtg on the team against LA).

It's pretty much the same in every series from what I remember (though I do remember SJAX being very good vs Phoenix).

I've posted all the numbers. You see the name Tony Parker and somehow think he was always a star. He was a lousy 2nd option in 03 who got benched for Speedy ****ing Claxton is the biggest moments. He was actually very good in the 03 Regular Season. In the Playoffs? GTFO.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Cherry picking series are we? If a player is above average in one series and below average in the next, is he above average overall? That's what you are saying. :oldlol:

Parker was very good to close out the Lakers (games 5 and 6). But his overall series falls in line with the 15 Kobe trait: high Usage, good PPG numbers, but ultimately inefficient and not really positive (.485 TS%, 3rd worst ORtg on the team against LA).

It's pretty much the same in every series from what I remember (though I do remember SJAX being very good vs Phoenix).

I've posted all the numbers. You see the name Tony Parker and somehow think he was always a star. He was a lousy 2nd option in 03 who got benched for Speedy ****ing Claxton is the biggest moments. He was actually very good in the 03 Regular Season. In the Playoffs? GTFO.

you said both those guys had zero impact when in fact they were the 2nd leading scorers in multiple series

hold this L

[MiseryCityTexas]

Cherry picking series are we? If a player is above average in one series and below average in the next, is he above average overall? That's what you are saying. :oldlol:

Parker was very good to close out the Lakers (games 5 and 6). But his overall series falls in line with the 15 Kobe trait: high Usage, good PPG numbers, but ultimately inefficient and not really positive (.485 TS%, 3rd worst ORtg on the team against LA).

It's pretty much the same in every series from what I remember (though I do remember SJAX being very good vs Phoenix).

I've posted all the numbers. You see the name Tony Parker and somehow think he was always a star. He was a lousy 2nd option in 03 who got benched for Speedy ****ing Claxton is the biggest moments. He was actually very good in the 03 Regular Season. In the Playoffs? GTFO.

You said thuggish ruggish Stephen Jackson was a nonfactor in the 2003 NBA Championship, but Jackson was in majority of this highlight video with Duncan in this game. :oldlol:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HRieYTW3zkM

[GrapeApe]

Of the teams I've actually seen, it has to be Hakeem's '94 Rockets. And lol at anyone saying '13 LeBron, on a team that won 27 straight games and 66 overall, as having a weak supporting cast.

[T_L_P]

Steve Smith wasold flabby and sick by the time he played for the Spurs but was still a good role player when he caught fire. Manu, SJax, and Tony Parker were all clutch in the 2003 NBA finals. The numbers don't lie, but the numbers don't tell the whole damned story when it comes to basketball. Stephen Jackson killed shit in the 2003 NBA finals.

What sort of hyperbole is that? 'Caught fire'. When? He scored 6 pts, 4 pts, 3 pts and 3 pts in the Playoffs. He was 2-7, 1-3, 1-7 and 1-1 in those games. Like I said, overall he shot 21% and didn't even pretend to try on defense. He was horrible. :oldlol:

I already said Manu was very good. Don't twist my words. SJAX had some clutch moments, particularly in the Finals, but that's supposed to wipe out him shooting a 37/36/50 for the series, eventually being put in Pop's doghouse where he'd shout out him more than Tony for throwing up shitty shots instead of feeding Duncan? :oldlol:

I'll tell you something else: Parker was anything but clutch, whole Playoffs considered. He was 25-78 in 4th quarters. :oldlol:

[T_L_P]

you said both those guys had zero impact when in fact they were the 2nd leading scorers in multiple series

hold this L

I almost forgot you were a Kobe stan. Raw PPG is the only thing that matters to you, clearly. A player doing it on 21% is probably still something to marvel at with you. :oldlol:

I knew you'd skip over that first point though. Good series = good play. Bad series = well, he had a good series at one point. :oldlol:

[ArbitraryWater]

LeBron on the '13 Heat should get a shotout.. they were hot in the regular season (although they didn't dominate their opponents during the streak like the '72 Lakers with Wilt), but they just blazed out in the playoffs... and it really was the start to a mediocre title cast, evidenced by the next year.

[ArbitraryWater]

you said both those guys had zero impact when in fact they were the 2nd leading scorers in multiple series

hold this L

Of course, if it isn't a Kobetard presenting his argument purely with POINTZ PERE GAMEZ BRO!!... :lol

[TheMarkMadsen]

Of course, if it isn't a Kobetard presenting his argument purely with POINTZ PERE GAMEZ BRO!!... :lol

are you just trying to look like an idiot?


if you're the second leading scorer in multiple series how the hell can you say that person had zero impact?

[ArbitraryWater]

are you just trying to look like an idiot?


if you're the second leading scorer in multiple series how the hell can you say that person had zero impact?

EIGHTY ONE POINTZ BRO!!

[TheMarkMadsen]

I almost forgot you were a Kobe stan. Raw PPG is the only thing that matters to you, clearly. A player doing it on 21% is probably still something to marvel at with you. :oldlol:

I knew you'd skip over that first point though. Good series = good play. Bad series = well, he had a good series at one point. :oldlol:


you said they had zero impact.

they were the second leading scorers in every series..

HOW IS THAT HAVING ZERO IMPACT?

[GrapeApe]

LeBron on the '13 Heat should get a shotout.. they were hot in the regular season (although they didn't dominate their opponents during the streak like the '72 Lakers with Wilt), but they just blazed out in the playoffs... and it really was the start to a mediocre title cast, evidenced by the next year.

The only reason they struggled in the playoffs (mainly the ECF) was Wade's injury. During the regular season he was 21/5/5/2/1 on 52% and an all star/all NBA performer. He was phenominal during the win streak. That was the Heat's best team until Wade got hurt (Ray Allen and Birdman were key additions too).

[TheMarkMadsen]

EIGHTY ONE POINTZ BRO!!

great response

[ArbitraryWater]

The only reason they struggled in the playoffs (mainly the ECF) was Wade's injury. During the regular season he was 21/5/5/2/1 on 52% and an all star/all NBA performer. He was phenominal during the win streak. That was the Heat's best team until Wade got hurt (Ray Allen and Birdman were key additions too).

Birdman was probably LeBron's 2nd best player in the playoffs... provided the most rim defense and barely missed a shot in the ECF (seriously).

[Jacks3]

03 Duncan shouldn't even be in the discussion. The 03 Spurs won because of their elite defense (and they got extremely lucky). They were a mediocre offensive team.

Yeah, Duncan was the biggest reason for that defense, but he also had the best defensive coach in the league and the best defensive supporting cast in basketball. lmao @ any idiot who thinks he had the worst.

[bizil]

I'm on board with those who say Barry. When u compare his teams to the others listed I think it's clear. It took a great all around player who was also an alpha dog to will that Warriors team. Barry of course fit that bill. In terms of great scoring and passing as a combo at the SF, Bird, Bron, and Barry are the top three ever.

[T_L_P]

03 Duncan shouldn't even be in the discussion. The 03 Spurs won because of their elite defense (and they got extremely lucky). They were a mediocre offensive team.

Yeah, Duncan was the biggest reason for that defense, but he also had the best defensive coach in the league and the best defensive supporting cast in basketball. lmao @ any idiot who thinks he had the worst.

03 Spurs: 3rd ranked defense
94 Rockets: 2nd ranked defense.

I guess Hakeem's team is out of the question too?

[rmt]

Bruce Bowen, Steph Jack, Parker, Ginobili, prime Duncan, David Robinson, Malik Rose was actually a very solid roleplayer in 2003, Kevin Willis and Steve Smith were solid role players also = stacked Spurs team.

Willis averaged only 5.1 minutes in his 18 playoff games. Steve Smith averaged 7.3 mins and played only 9 (out of 24) playoff games. Most of these minutes were garbage minutes.


Shooting percentages don't mean shit. SJax and Manu were clutch as shit when it mattered in the NBA play-offs and NBA Finals.

I was responding to someone's post to look at Wade's team mates' shooting percentages.


Steve Smith was old flabby and sick by the time he played for the Spurs but was still a good role player when he caught fire. Manu, SJax, and Tony Parker were all clutch in the 2003 NBA finals. The numbers don't lie, but the numbers don't tell the whole damned story when it comes to basketball. Stephen Jackson killed shit in the 2003 NBA finals.

I seem to recall Parker sitting on the bench (almost?) the entire 4th quarter of the last game of the 03 Finals. Who has their 2nd best player on the bench in the most important game of the NBA Finals? That's how inconsistent Parker was - replaced by Speedy Claxton.

[DMAVS41]

03 Duncan shouldn't even be in the discussion. The 03 Spurs won because of their elite defense (and they got extremely lucky). They were a mediocre offensive team.

Yeah, Duncan was the biggest reason for that defense, but he also had the best defensive coach in the league and the best defensive supporting cast in basketball. lmao @ any idiot who thinks he had the worst.

So Dirk had the worst then?

The 8th best offense and 8th best defense...

[GrapeApe]

Birdman was probably LeBron's 2nd best player in the playoffs... provided the most rim defense and barely missed a shot in the ECF (seriously).

Birdman, as I said, was a great addition and part of the reason that was the best Heat team of the big 3 era. As for the playoffs, the Heat won 8 of their first 9 against vastly overmatched oponents. The playoffs, for all intents and purposes, started in the ECF against the Pacers. I think with a healthy Wade they beat Indiana in 5 games, maybe 6. I think the finals would have been a struggle regardless. Wade played like an all star but it was a tough matchup and hence a difficult series.

[TheMan]

LeBron on the '13 Heat should get a shotout.. they were hot in the regular season (although they didn't dominate their opponents during the streak like the '72 Lakers with Wilt), but they just blazed out in the playoffs... and it really was the start to a mediocre title cast, evidenced by the next year.
:facepalm

[Pointguard]

**** outta here. Butch Beard was a beast when he played on that Warriors team and was an All Star the previous season, and Phil Smith was a solid role player that became an allstar later on in his career, while Clifford Ray was basically the Ben Wallace of the 70s who protected the paint, blocked shots, and rebounded his ass off. Charlie Johnson was a career role player, but he fitted in nicely in a BJ Armstrong clutch shooting role on the team knocking down every wide open shot he attempted damned near, While Jeff Mullens was added offensive firepower off the bench. Rick Barry had a lot of help on that team that somehow managed to beat a much better Bullets team on paper.
Beard averaged 7.3 ppg in the finals, about 5ppg in todays pace. That's faaaaaar from a beast. He shot 38% only 58% from the foul line and only 3 apg. A true train wreck. But he was gritty and tough.

Phil Smith 11ppg and nothing else of note.

Clifford Ray got only 1.5 blocks per game and George Johnson got nearly double his blocks in 10 less minutes per game. Jamal Wilkes was a better rebounder than Clifford Ray in the finals.

Jeff Mullens... really? 8ppg.

The Bullets, were much better in reality. Phil Chenier, HOFers Unseld and Hayes along with Kevin Porter were much better off paper than anybody you named and had much more experience.

[VIP2000]

Nobody that actually saw the Spurs play in 2003 would consider that team 'stacked'. Duncan had a good supporting cast of defensive players that sometimes came through in the clutch, but that was it. None of his teammates was remotely close to being an All-Star. He was their only consistent offensive player, and was obviously their defensive anchor.

Heck, he had 21 points, 20 rebounds, 10 assists, and 8 blocks in the closeout game of the 2003 Finals.

[MiseryCityTexas]

I'm on board with those who say Barry. When u compare his teams to the others listed I think it's clear. It took a great all around player who was also an alpha dog to will that Warriors team. Barry of course fit that bill. In terms of great scoring and passing as a combo at the SF, Bird, Bron, and Barry are the top three ever.


Barry's supporting cast was better than the Rockets supporting cast. Majority of you people never seen Barry's championship teams play ball ever. I did.

Spurs 2003 team was stacked enough to knock the ShaqKobe Lakers out of the play-offs, and everyone thought the Lakers were better that year lmao. :oldlol: That's a good enough reason to call that a stacked team.:oldlol:

[T_L_P]

Barry's supporting cast was better than the Rockets supporting cast. Majority of you people never seen Barry's championship teams play ball ever. I did.

Spurs 2003 team was stacked enough to knock the ShaqKobe Lakers out of the play-offs, and everyone thought the Lakers were better that year lmao. :oldlol: That's a good enough reason to call that a stacked team.:oldlol:

Again, this is about the superstar's help.

Duncan had to have one of the greatest Playoff runs ever for the team to win.

The team looked lost in the Playoffs whenever he was on the bench (his On/Off was a +25, our team FG% with him on the bench barely broke 35%). How can a supporting cast that shoots 37% with you on the bench be 'stacked'?

[MiseryCityTexas]

Beard averaged 7.3 ppg in the finals, about 5ppg in todays pace. That's faaaaaar from a beast. He shot 38% only 58% from the foul line and only 3 apg. A true train wreck. But he was gritty and tough.

Phil Smith 11ppg and nothing else of note.

Clifford Ray got only 1.5 blocks per game and George Johnson got nearly double his blocks in 10 less minutes per game. Jamal Wilkes was a better rebounder than Clifford Ray in the finals.

Jeff Mullens... really? 8ppg.

The Bullets, were much better in reality. Phil Chenier, HOFers Unseld and Hayes along with Kevin Porter were much better off paper than anybody you named and had much more experience.

Jeff Mullen was past his prime, but was still a key contributor off the bench. Mullens, in his absolute prime made multiple All Star appearances in the 60s.

[MiseryCityTexas]

Now that I think about it, the Rockets did have a better supporting cast than the Barry Warriors teams to an extent because they had Thorpe, Vernon Maxwell, Horry, and Sam Cassell, and most of them were better than Charles Johnson, Clifford Ray and Butch Beard. It's just that Rockets bench outside of Sam Cassell was ****ing pathetic. Scotty Brooks, Carl Herrera, and Chucky Brown were the 2nd, third, and fourth best players off that Rocket's bench and the Warriors Phil Smith, and George Johnson was better than all of them Rockets bench players.:oldlol:

[rmt]

Barry's supporting cast was better than the Rockets supporting cast. Majority of you people never seen Barry's championship teams play ball ever. I did.

Spurs 2003 team was stacked enough to knock the ShaqKobe Lakers out of the play-offs, and everyone thought the Lakers were better that year lmao. :oldlol: That's a good enough reason to call that a stacked team.:oldlol:

vs Lakers
Duncan 28 pts / 11.8 rebs / 4.8 asst / 1.3 blks 52.9%
Parker 14.8 pts / 2.8 rebs / 3.5 asst 40.5%
Manu 11.7 pts / 3.3 rebs / 2.5 asst 41.2%
Bowen 11.2 pts / 2.7 rebs / 1.8 asst 55.8%
SJax 8.3 pts / 4.2 rebs / 2.2 asst 32.7%

That's what you call a stacked team? Bowen had a good series (for him) - no one else. They knocked Lakers out because TD played extremely well - especially in the last game (37 pts / 16 rebs / 4 asst / 2 blks 64%)

[TheMarkMadsen]

Now that I think about it, the Rockets did have a better supporting cast than the Barry Warriors teams to an extent because they had Thorpe, Vernon Maxwell, Horry, and Sam Cassell, and most of them were better than Charles Johnson, Clifford Ray and Butch Beard. It's just that Rockets bench outside of Sam Cassell was ****ing pathetic. Scotty Brooks, Carl Herrera, and Chucky Brown were the 2nd, third, and fourth best players off that Rocket's bench and the Warriors Phil Smith, and George Johnson was better than all of them Rockets bench players.:oldlol:

the 95 rockets were plenty loaded

[97 bulls]

03 Duncan shouldn't even be in the discussion. The 03 Spurs won because of their elite defense (and they got extremely lucky). They were a mediocre offensive team.

Yeah, Duncan was the biggest reason for that defense, but he also had the best defensive coach in the league and the best defensive supporting cast in basketball. lmao @ any idiot who thinks he had the worst.
I agree. This notion that the Spurs sucked outside of Duncan is nonsense. Theres basically eight positions in basketball. PG, SG, SF, PF, C, 6th man, bench and Coach.

Compare them to what was around in 03. The Spurs had arguably the best Coach, 6th amn, PF, and Bench. They were arguably best at 4 of those 8 spots

[97 bulls]

vs Lakers
Duncan 28 pts / 11.8 rebs / 4.8 asst / 1.3 blks 52.9%
Parker 14.8 pts / 2.8 rebs / 3.5 asst 40.5%
Manu 11.7 pts / 3.3 rebs / 2.5 asst 41.2%
Bowen 11.2 pts / 2.7 rebs / 1.8 asst 55.8%
SJax 8.3 pts / 4.2 rebs / 2.2 asst 32.7%

That's what you call a stacked team? Bowen had a good series (for him) - no one else. They knocked Lakers out because TD played extremely well - especially in the last game (37 pts / 16 rebs / 4 asst / 2 blks 64%)
What did the Lakers statsline look like

[1987_Lakers]

Alot of crappy teams talent wise won titles in the mid-late 70's, there wasn't much competition. That was probably the worst years the NBA ever had.

Since 1980 I would say...

'94 Rockets
'03 Spurs
'06 Heat
'11 Mavs

For those who saw the 2006 Heat know why I put them there. Outside of Wade and a past prime Shaq who didn't do much in the Finals it was a team filled with washed up misfit players who were past their prime or never played up to their potential.

[tpols]

I agree. This notion that the Spurs sucked outside of Duncan is nonsense. Theres basically eight positions in basketball. PG, SG, SF, PF, C, 6th man, bench and Coach.

Compare them to what was around in 03. The Spurs had arguably the best Coach, 6th amn, PF, and Bench. They were arguably best at 4 of those 8 spots
That and they had amazing defense even outside Duncan. And their wcf opponent lost their best player plus finals comp was weak.



Best I've seen is Dirk.. even though his guys stepped up so did Dirk and they were underdogs without hca in every round after the first

[SouBeachTalents]

Alot of crappy teams talent wise won titles in the mid-late 70's, there wasn't much competition. That was probably the worst years the NBA ever had.

Since 1980 I would say...

'94 Rockets
'03 Spurs
'06 Heat
'11 Mavs

For those who saw the 2006 Heat know why I put them there. Outside of Wade and a past prime Shaq who didn't do much in the Finals it was a team filled with washed up misfit players who were past their prime or never played up to their potential.

No disagreement about the '06 Finals, but you'd still put the '06 Heat over the 2011 Mavs if you're factoring in the entire season? Shaq was still averaging 20 & 10 on 60% until the Finals

[MiseryCityTexas]

That and they had amazing defense even outside Duncan. And their wcf opponent lost their best player plus finals comp was weak.



Best I've seen is Dirk.. even though his guys stepped up so did Dirk and they were underdogs without hca in every round after the first


Lmao it was some guy in here earlier that actually said that said Tony Parker, SJax, and Ginobili did absolutely nothing to help the Spurs win in the play-offs/finals. :oldlol:

[MiseryCityTexas]

Alot of crappy teams talent wise won titles in the mid-late 70's, there wasn't much competition. That was probably the worst years the NBA ever had.

Since 1980 I would say...

'94 Rockets
'03 Spurs
'06 Heat
'11 Mavs

For those who saw the 2006 Heat know why I put them there. Outside of Wade and a past prime Shaq who didn't do much in the Finals it was a team filled with washed up misfit players who were past their prime or never played up to their potential.

Yeah because the best basketball talent played in the ABA, and not in the NBA during the early to mid 70s. Old farts that were past their primes like John Havlicek, and Oscar Robertson were still winning championships during that era.

[Prime_Shaq]

vs Lakers
Duncan 28 pts / 11.8 rebs / 4.8 asst / 1.3 blks 52.9%
Parker 14.8 pts / 2.8 rebs / 3.5 asst 40.5%
Manu 11.7 pts / 3.3 rebs / 2.5 asst 41.2%
Bowen 11.2 pts / 2.7 rebs / 1.8 asst 55.8%
SJax 8.3 pts / 4.2 rebs / 2.2 asst 32.7%

That's what you call a stacked team? Bowen had a good series (for him) - no one else. They knocked Lakers out because TD played extremely well - especially in the last game (37 pts / 16 rebs / 4 asst / 2 blks 64%)
Heartbreaker for me. This is why I hold Duncan real high in my book, he bested Prime Shaq. :applause:

[tpols]

Lmao it was some guy in here earlier that actually said that said Tony Parker, SJax, and Ginobili did absolutely nothing to help the Spurs win in the play-offs/finals. :oldlol:
People understate Duncan's cast because there was no star on the team.. much like the current spur teams. It was a total team effort.. spurs had hca throughout and people act like a team with the best record in the nba was some massive underdog.

Dallas was predicted to get bounced in the damn FIRST round.. and they won the championship. This shouldn't be a discussion.

[MiseryCityTexas]

People keep screaming that Rick Barry's Warriors had a bad supporting cast yet managed to beat a much better Washington Bullets team on paper. I think that 70s Warriors team could probably hang with today's soft, watered down league if a time machine existed.

[Shih508]

Duncan in 03 for sure. Their final opponent might be weak, but their road to Final was as tough as it gets.

Best Player post MJ era

[T_L_P]

That and they had amazing defense even outside Duncan. And their wcf opponent lost their best player plus finals comp was weak.



Best I've seen is Dirk.. even though his guys stepped up so did Dirk and they were underdogs without hca in every round after the first

Except...they were statistically a below average league defense without Duncan.

[T_L_P]

People understate Duncan's cast because there was no star on the team.. much like the current spur teams. It was a total team effort.

The Spurs with Duncan on the bench: 90 ORtg (#16 among Playoff teams), 104 DRtg (league average).

So the help around Duncan was average defensively and pitiful offensively. Oh yeah, complete team effort for sure, so much stacked. :bowdown:

The Box +/-s (Points Per 100 Possessions)

Duncan: 11.7 (2nd best for a title run ever)
Manu: 4.6
Robinson: 4.1
Kerr: 4.5
Jackson: 1.6
Bowen: 2.1
Claxton: 0.0
Rose: -1.1
Parker: -1.8
Ferry: -4.5
Willis: -2.0
Smith: -6.9

Compare that with the 2011 Mavs?

Kidd: 5.9
Terry: 4.8
Chandler: 4.3
Brewer: 4.3
Dirk: 3.8
Marrion: 3.1
Cardinal: 1.9
Haywood: 1.8
DeShawn: 0.9
Barea: 0.8
Peja: 0.7
Ian Mahinmi: -1.8

Now tell me which was more of a 'team effort'.

[Chadwin]

I called in to 790 today just to ask this.

Charlie says Hakeem.

[masonanddixon]

Duncan in 03 for sure. Their final opponent might be weak, but their road to Final was as tough as it gets.

Best Player post MJ era

I don't think they would have won against Dallas.