Bob Cousy vs Dwyane Wade

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Better player?

http://oi33.tinypic.com/25q817l.jpg

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view/64386/dwyane-wade-dunk-o.gif

[You Cant Ban Me]

The black one

[JohnFreeman]

Cousy or the guy who played in a competitive era? hmmm

[iamgine]

Wade? :facepalm I mean even current Aaron Brooks > peak Cousy.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Wade? :facepalm I mean even current Aaron Brooks > peak Cousy.

Barry
Havlicek
Erving
Frazier
Reed
Cowens

I did say give or take a few. That's five including Kareem. I didn't even include MVPs Wes Unseld, Gervin, Hayes and McAdoo.

50s
Mikan
Cousy

60s
Russell
Wilt
Pettit
Baylor
West
O

80s
Magic
Bird
Moses
Zeke

90s
Jordan
Hakeem
Malone
Barkley
Robinson
Stockton
Pippen
Drexler

Than you have players on the fence like Schayes, Arizin, Unseld, Hayes, McAdoo, Gervin, McHale, Ewing, Payton, Kidd, Nash.

someone's list of players better than Wade

[SugarHill]

someone's list of players better than Wade
What a ridiculous post lol

[LAZERUSS]

You could just as easily substitute Steve Nash in place of Bob Cousy, as well. The two were nearly identical in the way they played the game.

Maybe you can explain to all of us just how Nash won back-to-back MVPs IN the "Wade-era?"

[greatest-ever]

Is this thread a joke? This is wade easily. Wade is at worst a top 25 player ever while Cousy is borderline top 50 at best.

There's nothing impressive about Cousy unless you are just counting rings.

[jrong]

You could just as easily substitute Steve Nash in place of Bob Cousy, as well. The two were nearly identical in the way they played the game.

Maybe you can explain to all of us just how Nash won back-to-back MVPs IN the "Wade-era?"

Because awards determined by voters should be given minimal weight. They are subjective and susceptible to various forms of bias.

Regarding MVPs, they are insignificant unless the player has a legitimate case for being considered the best player in the league that year. Therefore, LeBron/ Kobe /KD's MVPs are legit. Some others in recent years, not so much.

Nash averaged 15/11 in 2005 when Wade did 24/5/7. Nash averaged 19/11 in 2006, when Wade put up 27/6/7.

Team records in both years were comparable. Wade led his team in scoring both years. Nash didn't. We haven't even talked about defense. No person who is at all knowledgeable about basketball would claim Nash was better than even a 2nd or 3rd year Wade, or at any other point (and anyone who claims otherwise, is not at all knowledgeable about basketball).


someone who is not very smart's list of players better than Wade

Edited for accuracy.

[LAZERUSS]

Because awards determined by voters should be given minimal weight. They are subjective and susceptible to various forms of bias.

Regarding MVPs, they are insignificant unless the player has a legitimate case for being considered the best player in the league that year. Therefore, LeBron/ Kobe /KD's MVPs are legit. Some others in recent years, not so much.

Nash averaged 15/11 in 2005 when Wade did 24/5/7. Nash averaged 19/11 in 2006, when Wade put up 27/6/7.

Team records in both years were comparable. Wade led his team in scoring both years. Nash didn't. We haven't even talked about defense. No person who is at all knowledgeable about basketball would claim Nash was better than even a 2nd or 3rd year Wade, or at any other point (and anyone who claims otherwise, is not at all knowledgeable about basketball)



Edited for accuracy.

Wasn't my point.

My point was the OP obviously ripping Cousy, when he could have just as easily ripped Nash instead.

[MP.Trey]

6/7 > 3/5

[mehyaM24]

Is this thread a joke? This is wade easily. Wade is at worst a top 25 player ever while Cousy is borderline top 50 at best.

There's nothing impressive about Cousy unless you are just counting rings.
at worst top 25? try 30-35.. i have wade around the 29 or 30 range, but top 25 is a HUGE stretch.

there are TOO many superstars with better careers and better basketball skills to be put aside for wade, who while great, is an injury riddled, lack-of-adjustment player.

[Lebronxrings]

wade easily. I could beat Cousy and i havent played ball in years.

[LAZERUSS]

wade easily. I could beat Cousy and i havent played ball in years.

I doubt you could beat him TODAY...and he is 86.

[Eric Cartman]

Comparing Nash to Cousy is a huge joke, did you see that gif from Cousy, my 93 year old vietnam veteran neighbor can dribble better than that and he's missing a leg.

Nash has the ball on a string and it is an insult to compare him to Cousy.

[LAZERUSS]

Comparing Nash to Cousy is a huge joke, did you see that gif from Cousy, my 93 year old vietnam veteran neighbor can dribble better than that and he's missing a leg.

Nash has the ball on a string and it is an insult to compare him to Cousy.

How about the 6-5 Maravich against the 6-2 Nash?

Pistol Pete was playing college ball in the 60's...

Maravich would have made a mockery out of Nash in a game of one-on-one.
Not even close.

[greatest-ever]

at worst top 25? try 30-35.. i have wade around the 29 or 30 range, but top 25 is a HUGE stretch.

there are TOO many superstars with better careers and better basketball skills to be put aside for wade, who while great, is an injury riddled, lack-of-adjustment player.
Huge stretch? Not really, Wade has arguably a top 15 peak ever and has strong resume to go with it. There are definitely not 30 players who were as good as Wade in his prime even if it was short.

[L.Kizzle]

Cousy was easily the best guard of his era. Wade ... not.

[greatest-ever]

Cousy was easily the best guard of his era. Wade ... not.
I don't see how that's relevant or even fair. Competiton at the position must be considered, Dwight was the best center in his era mostly, so by your logic we'd have to take him over Drob and Ewing since Hakeem was the best center then.

[LongLiveTheKing]

How this even a comparison Dwyane Wade played in a real era of basketball. Wade is about 10x more athletic and overall better. Didn't Cousy shoot 35% and not to mention Doris Burke has better handles than him :lol

[L.Kizzle]

I don't see how that's relevant or even fair. Competiton at the position must be considered, Dwight was the best center in his era mostly, so by your logic we'd have to take him over Drob and Ewing since Hakeem was the best center then.
Difference is there were other HoF guards in Cousy's era, non in Dwights era unless Ben Wallace or Yao Ming make it.

[swagga]

lol comparing cousy to nash, total ignorance.

[LAZERUSS]

lol comparing cousy to nash, total ignorance.

Like comparing Hakeem to Hibbert.

Who would take Hakeem over Hibbert?

[Psileas]

I don't see how that's relevant or even fair. Competiton at the position must be considered, Dwight was the best center in his era mostly, so by your logic we'd have to take him over Drob and Ewing since Hakeem was the best center then.

Yes...and?

[jrong]

Huge stretch? Not really, Wade has arguably a top 15 peak ever and has strong resume to go with it. There are definitely not 30 players who were as good as Wade in his prime even if it was short.

Wade is a top 20 player, who has top 10 talent. Consider what the NBA landscape looks like if Wade picks up his first FMVP in 05. Because he was on his way to the Finals until the ab tear in Game 5.

Regardless the world would have "met" Dwyane Wade in 2005. And that Heat/ Spurs series would have been a war. Wade was dominating the Larry Brown/ Big Ben-era defense of the Pistons, so I don't think the Spurs defense would have scared him.

If he did get the hardware in 05, and then still wins the 06 title, all of the sudden we're living in the "Dwyane Wade era." And in 07, when he was already much better than 06, what if he and Shaq don't both get hurt? He was putting up 29/5/8 until the shoulder tear, about where he was in 09. They would have blitzed the East and then had another war with the Spurs in the Finals. If they win again, now he have a Wade-led three-peat and it would have only been his fourth year in the league.

If, if, if, if, if. That's the word that defines what Wade could have been. However, "if" doesn't make a legacy. But, when Wade has been on court, his play obliterates that of some players that many people try to put above him. He's at 24/5/6/2/1/49% for his career for god's sake, and that's despite the years in which his stats were deflated by injuries and LeBron.

The career totals to watch are 20,000 pts and 5,000 assists. Once he hits those benchmarks, with career averages not dropping significantly, it will be impossible for any objective observer to put him outside the top 25. Depending on how many games he plays, he could hit both of those marks next season.

[greatest-ever]

Difference is there were other HoF guards in Cousy's era, non in Dwights era unless Ben Wallace or Yao Ming make it.
Right and i guess there was no Kobe, Cp3, Nash, Ray allen etc playing at the same time as Wade:lol

Your comment is disingenuous.

[L.Kizzle]

Right and i guess there was no Kobe, Cp3, Nash, Ray allen etc playing at the same time as Wade:lol

Your comment is disingenuous.
Only difference is Cousy was the best guard for a ten year stretch and Wade never was.

[GimmeThat]

CEOs and politicians be bookmarking this thread as to why their performace. (Stock price, policies) just cant be compared to what it was like before.


Lots of fortune 500 companies fail, but you somehow picked a player who had accolades before, where the name isnt going away.



Happy valenstine day.

[swagga]

Only difference is Cousy was the best guard for a ten year stretch and Wade never was.

best guard in whites only milkmen league don't mean too much tbh.

[swagga]

Like comparing Hakeem to Hibbert.

Who would take Hakeem over Hibbert?

lol besides defensive impact that comparison shouldn't even be made.

cousy can't hold nash's jock, he is light years behing in ball handling, shooting, passing, vision, ability to take a man off the dribble, tempo control, etc... keep the L.

[Young X]

Only difference is Cousy was the best guard for a ten year stretch and Wade never was.What does this have to do with who the better player was? Would Cousy be the best guard if Kobe was playing at the same time as him?

[L.Kizzle]

Nope but Kobe wasn't the only guars better than Wade.

[Ariza4three]

Anyone who thinks a prime Cousy would even be in the ****ing NBA right now is retarded. L. Kizzle, Lazerrus, every one of you.

[swagga]

What does this have to do with who the better player was? Would Cousy be the best guard if Kobe was playing at the same time as him?

going by that dude's list of players better than wade my grandma is a better player than wade and she can't move without a wheelchair.

[Young X]

Nope but Kobe wasn't the only guars better than Wade.
Besides Kobe who was better than Wade?

[LAZERUSS]

lol besides defensive impact that comparison shouldn't even be made.

cousy can't hold nash's jock, he is light years behing in ball handling, shooting, passing, vision, ability to take a man off the dribble, tempo control, etc... keep the L.

Limit Nash from traveling and carrying the ball on every possession, and he would have looked like an average 6-2 white guy in the 60's...

BTW, Maravich would have destroyed Nash one-on-one.

[greatest-ever]

Nope but Kobe wasn't the only guars better than Wade.
And what other guard was better? Cp3? No. Nash? Nah.

[greatest-ever]

:roll:
Limit Nash from traveling and carrying the ball on every possession, and he would have looked like an average 6-2 white guy in the 60's...

BTW, Maravich would have destroyed Nash one-on-one.
Basketball isn't a one-on-one game so just because you can beat someone one on one doesn't make you a better player.

[LAZERUSS]

:roll:
Basketball isn't a one-on-one game so just because you can beat someone one on one doesn't make you a better player.

And what separates Nash from Cousy, then?

Cousy was doing everything with a basketball that Nash would do later on. In fact, he was a key player in numerous titles....which is something that Nash can't claim.

[L.Kizzle]

The great D Wade has the same amount of 1st Teams as Tracy McGrady.

[jrong]

Only difference is Cousy was the best guard for a ten year stretch and Wade never was.

I have serious trouble believing that you're as stupid as you're representing yourself to be in this thread.

Look at your list of players who are "better" than Wade and point out how many had career averages (rounded) better than 24 pts, 5 rebs, 6 asts, 49% FGs, 2 stls, and 1 blk in their 12th season (and that's not even factoring in how injury-limited and LeBron-limited Wade's numbers are.)

I have serious trouble believing that you believe all the players on your list (or very many at all) could have pushed the NBA's #1 seed to the brink of Game 7 in the second round as a rookie, could have taken over a team with a hurt Shaq as a sophomore and carried them to the brink of the Finals (stopped only by injury) and then carried them to a title in their third years.

I have serious trouble believing that you think many players on your list could have dragged a roster filled with replacement-level players to an average of 45 wins in 09 and 10, been the best player on two Team USA teams ('06 Worlds and '08 Olympics), played as well or better than LeBron as a teammate (who was also on those Team USA teams) in 2011 overall and reduced him to a deferential bystander in the 2011 Finals.

You don't like Wade. We get it. But, you're not really this dumb, are you?

Because if you stand by your list and can't refute what the points I've made above (spolier alert: they're irrefutable), then, I guess you really are.

[swagga]

Limit Nash from traveling and carrying the ball on every possession, and he would have looked like an average 6-2 white guy in the 60's...

BTW, Maravich would have destroyed Nash one-on-one.

with zero dribbling nash is still a GOAT level shooter with excellent rim finishing skills, cousy's offensive game was laughable (layups:facepalm , shooting :roll: , finishing in traffic :lol )

for the millionth time cousy carried alot, just watch your damn tapes for once, like his classic spin move :roll: superstar treatment tbh

what does maravich got to do with this discussion?

[L.Kizzle]

I have serious trouble believing that you're as stupid as you're representing yourself to be in this thread.

Look at your list of players who are "better" than Wade and point out how many had career averages (rounded) better than 24 pts, 5 rebs, 6 asts, 49% FGs, 2 stls, and 1 blk in their 12th season, and that's not even factoring in how injury-limited and LeBron-limited Wade's numbers are.

I have serious trouble believing that you believe all the players on your list (or very many at all) could have pushed the NBA's #1 seed to the brink of Game 7 in the second round as a rookie, could have taken over a team with a hurt Shaq as a sophomore and carried them to the brink of the Finals, stopped only by injury and then carried them to a title in their third years.

I have serious trouble believing that you think many players on your list could have dragged a roster filled with replacement-level players to an average of 45 wins in 09 and 10, been the best player on two Team USA teams ('06 Worlds and '08 Olympics), played as well or better than LeBron as a teammate (who was also on those Team USA teams) and reduced him to a deferential bystander in the Finals in 2011.

You don't like Wade. We get it. But, you're not really this dumb, are you?

Because if you stand by your list and can't refute what the points I've made above (spolier alert: they're irrefutable), then, I guess you really are.
If ranking Bob Cousy, or even Walt Frazier or Rick Barry over Wade make me dumb, than I guess I'm dumb.

[LAZERUSS]

with zero dribbling nash is still a GOAT level shooter with excellent rim finishing skills, cousy's offensive game was laughable (layups:facepalm , shooting :roll: , finishing in traffic :lol )

for the millionth time cousy carried alot, just watch your damn tapes for once, like his classic spin move :roll: superstar treatment tbh

what does maravich got to do with this discussion?


White guy who played college ball in the 60's...and separated by about 5-10 years from Cousy. And who in fact, a who studied Cousy's game.

Cousy was a pioneer. Furthermore, he was the exact height and weight as Nash. Put Cousy in the 00's and let him adapt to the game in a few months, and he would definitely have been compared to Nash.

[greatest-ever]

And what separates Nash from Cousy, then?

Cousy was doing everything with a basketball that Nash would do later on. In fact, he was a key player in numerous titles....which is something that Nash can't claim.
Well lets see Nash is a far more efficient scorer and way better playmaker.

Bringing up the titles is pointless, Cousy played with a top 5 or 10 goat in an era with 8 teams.

[Young X]

The great D Wade has the same amount of 1st Teams as Tracy McGrady.Also led his team to a championship in only his 3rd season, has 2 more rings playing at an all-star level, has better career numbers than damn near every guard besides MJ, has a scoring title, etc.

[greatest-ever]

If ranking Bob Cousy, or even Walt Frazier or Rick Barry over Wade make me dumb, than I guess I'm dumb.
:lol

You've presented absolutely no logical argument as to how Cousy is a better player than Wade, other than your arbitrary standards of "cousy was the best guard in his era".

So yes if u think Barry and Cousy are better players than Wade you must be a dumbass and cannot be taken serious.

[L.Kizzle]

Also led his team to a championship in only his 3rd season, has 2 more rings playing at an all-star level, has better career numbers than damn near every guard besides MJ, has a scoring title, etc.
Why doesn't he have at least 5 All NBA 1st Teams? I think Chris Webber has two 1st Teams also.

[LAZERUSS]

Well lets see Nash is a far more efficient scorer and way better playmaker.

Bringing up the titles is pointless, Cousy played with a top 5 or 10 goat in an era with 8 teams.

So using efficiency...you have Walt Bellamy way ahead of Cousins? Bellamy was a much better scorer, and far more efficient...and in NBA that was much more difficult to shoot in. The league-wide eFG%'s were barely hovering above the 40% mark. Today's NBA is at the 50% mark.

BTW, a prime KAJ had seasons of .539, .529, .518, and even a .513 (right in the middle of the 70's)...and yet, he had seasons of 60+ in the 80's. Furthermore, he shot a CAREER .447 against a full-time Thurmond, and a CAREER .607 against Hakeem. Hell, a 38-39 year old KAJ was routinely hanging 40+ point games on Hakeem.

[Young X]

Why doesn't he have at least 5 All NBA 1st Teams? I think Chris Webber has two 1st Teams also.Because he got injured in the middle of his prime and isn't hyped up by the media.

Which of Cousy's seasons are better than Wade's 2006 season and when has he been as dominant as Wade was from '09-'11?

[swagga]

White guy who played college ball in the 60's...and separated by about 5-10 years from Cousy. And who in fact, a who studied Cousy's game.

Cousy was a pioneer. Furthermore, he was the exact height and weight as Nash. Put Cousy in the 00's and let him adapt to the game in a few months, and he would definitely have been compared to Nash.

with his shooting he'd be let WIIIIDE open and if he's coming in the lane with that shit finishing he is getting rejected worse than durant at a pickup contest. with that ball handling he'd have touble bringing the ball upcourt against an average defender. Put westchimp or beverly on him and he isn't making it to halfcourt ffs. :facepalm

literally out of ALL the older eras players cousy's game translates the LEAST. he wouldn't even play in the fcking D-league. he would be a good YMCA level player :applause:

[swagga]

Why doesn't he have at least 5 All NBA 1st Teams? I think Chris Webber has two 1st Teams also.

strong logic :lol

[GimmeThat]

I have serious trouble believing that you're as stupid as you're representing yourself to be in this thread.

Look at your list of players who are "better" than Wade and point out how many had career averages (rounded) better than 24 pts, 5 rebs, 6 asts, 49% FGs, 2 stls, and 1 blk in their 12th season (and that's not even factoring in how injury-limited and LeBron-limited Wade's numbers are.)

I have serious trouble believing that you believe all the players on your list (or very many at all) could have pushed the NBA's #1 seed to the brink of Game 7 in the second round as a rookie, could have taken over a team with a hurt Shaq as a sophomore and carried them to the brink of the Finals (stopped only by injury) and then carried them to a title in their third years.

I have serious trouble believing that you think many players on your list could have dragged a roster filled with replacement-level players to an average of 45 wins in 09 and 10, been the best player on two Team USA teams ('06 Worlds and '08 Olympics), played as well or better than LeBron as a teammate (who was also on those Team USA teams) in 2011 overall and reduced him to a deferential bystander in the 2011 Finals.

You don't like Wade. We get it. But, you're not really this dumb, are you?

Because if you stand by your list and can't refute what the points I've made above (spolier alert: they're irrefutable), then, I guess you really are.


Bill Walton could have done everything you have just listed. And even him wouldnt nessecarily be ranked over Cousy.


You are insulting my brain.

[SugarHill]

Why doesn't he have at least 5 All NBA 1st Teams? I think Chris Webber has two 1st Teams also.
Webber only has a single first team selection and why would T-Mac having two all NBA first team selections somehow make Wade not great? That's the dumbest logic ever. :coleman:

[jrong]

If ranking Bob Cousy, or even Walt Frazier or Rick Barry over Wade make me dumb, than I guess I'm dumb.

You don't address my specific points because you know you can't. But, of those three, the only one with the faintest whisper of a prayer of replicating the accomplishments of Wade's that I listed above was Barry and like I said it's the faintest of whispers.

I'm not some kid who spends all day fantarding online. I'm a professional journalist. I've seen every player since 1980. And I have never seen anything like the systematic underrating of Dwyane Wade, not just in basketball, but in all of sports.

If Wade had played in an older era, this might be slightly defensible. But, he plays in the Internet age. The stats are all on Basketball-Reference, and the games and highlights are on Youtube. So what is the excuse?

It's inexcusable. But, maybe I shouldn't be so hard on you. You are, after all, living in this present media age and not immune to the coverage Wade has been subjected to throughout his career (by members of my profession), which has been nothing short of an abdication of professional responsibility.

[GimmeThat]

Because he got injured in the middle of his prime and isn't hyped up by the media.

Which of Cousy's seasons are better than Wade's 2006 season and when has he been as dominant as Wade was from '09-'11?


besides the whole injury aspect. When we take away Wade's shot blocking ability, the reality is that he is a 6-4 SG who cant be described as a lockdown defender or someone you may nessecarily put on the opposing best scoring perimeter player.

I can say the same about ibaka. Or even melo, if it wasnt due to his sheer size.

[L.Kizzle]

You don't address my specific points because you know you can't. But, of those three, the only one with the faintest whisper of a prayer of replicating the accomplishments of Wade's that I listed above was Barry and like I said it's the faintest of whispers.

I'm not some kid who spends all day fantarding online. I'm a professional journalist. I've seen every player since 1980. And I have never seen anything like the systematic underrating of Dwyane Wade, not just in basketball, but in all of sports.

If Wade had played in an older era, this might be slightly defensible. But, he plays in the Internet age. The stats are all on Basketball-Reference, and the games and highlights are on Youtube. So what is the excuse?

It's inexcusable. But, maybe I shouldn't be so hard on you. You are, after all, living in this present media age and not immune to the coverage Wade has been subjected to throughout his career (by members of my profession), which has been nothing short of an abdication of professional responsibility.
Why are you discrediting what Cousy did in his era, but bringing up Wade being discredited in his era? This isn't about transporting an athlete of Wade ability into 1955.

Take what Cousy did in his era. I'll even go pre-Russell. Russell missed the first part of his Rookie season.

6 All Star teams / Five NBA 1st Teams
Playoffs every season including conf finals twice
Assist leader three times
Playoff scoring leader three times / assist twice

with Russell
57 MVP (Russell missed early season)
7 All Star teams / five 1st and two 2nd
6 rings in 7 years
Assist leader (regular and playoff) until Robertson came along

Or you going to discredit this like you say others do Wade?

[swagga]

besides the whole injury aspect. When we take away Wade's shot blocking ability, the reality is that he is a 6-4 SG who cant be described as a lockdown defender or someone you may nessecarily put on the opposing best scoring perimeter player.

I can say the same about ibaka. Or even melo, if it wasnt due to his sheer size.

:roll: :lol :oldlol:

[swagga]

Why are you discrediting what Cousy did in his era, but bringing up Wade being discredited in his era? This isn't about transporting an athlete of Wade ability into 1955.

Take what Cousy did in his era. I'll even go pre-Russell. Russell missed the first part of his Rookie season.

6 All Star teams / Five NBA 1st Teams
Playoffs every season including conf finals twice
Assist leader three times
Playoff scoring leader three times / assist twice

with Russell
57 MVP (Russell missed early season)
7 All Star teams / five 1st and two 2nd
6 rings in 7 years
Assist leader (regular and playoff) until Robertson came along

Or you going to discredit this like you say others do Wade?

I hope you are trolling, otherwise this is such poor logic :facepalm

[Jud]

Only trolls would ask this question

[LAZERUSS]

It's amazing that Nash won two MVPs IN the Wade era, and Kevin Love ran away with rebounding titles in the current NBA...

and yet we are supposed to believe that Cousy and his era would be trash had they played today?

[L.Kizzle]

I hope you are trolling, otherwise this is such poor logic :facepalm
How is it poor logic? Are you one of those guys who thinks Basketball started when Jordan was drafted?

[swagga]

How is it poor logic? Are you one of those guys who thinks Basketball started when Jordan was drafted?

i'm one of those guys that judges by context, translatable skills and game evolution.
cousy was great in his era but his skills simply do not translate to this era.

what is more impressive:
winning rings on a stacked team in a league with half the number of teams from today
OR
putting stats comparable to GOAT level players, having arguably the best finals in history and winning rings against much better(quality&quantity) opposition.
?

you tell me.

[swagga]

It's amazing that Nash won two MVPs IN the Wade era, and Kevin Love ran away with rebounding titles in the current NBA...

and yet we are supposed to believe that Cousy and his era would be trash had they played today?

it's amazing how a player so dominant as wilt won only 1 title in his prime .... oh, it a teamgame now and the other team was so stacked ... like joe johnson-matrix-amare-bell-nash stacked..oops.:lol

4 Ls in this thread gramps. you keep racking 'em.

[L.Kizzle]

i'm one of those guys that judges by context, translatable skills and game evolution.
cousy was great in his era but his skills simply do not translate to this era.

what is more impressive:
winning rings on a stacked team in a league with half the number of teams from today
OR
putting stats comparable to GOAT level players, having arguably the best finals in history and winning rings against much better(quality&quantity) opposition.
?

you tell me.
What's more impressive to you, the first car or 2015 cars that start on their own?

[LAZERUSS]

it's amazing how a player so dominant as wilt won only 1 title in his prime .... oh, it a teamgame now and the other team was so stacked ... like joe johnson-matrix-amare-bell-nash stacked..oops.:lol

4 Ls in this thread gramps. you keep racking 'em.

Same with a prime Kareem, who could also only win one title, and who, in fact, had considerably less team success in his four years that he played with Wilt.

But the main difference was, Kareem was losing to pitiful title teams, while Chamberlain was taking trash rosters to within an eyelash of beating HOF-laden Dynasties,...and in fact DID beat the eight-time defending champions (in a blowout BTW), AND, also knocked off the '72 Bucks, whom virtually everyone had predicted would be the next great dynasty after their '71 title romp.

[swagga]

What's more impressive to you, the first car or 2015 cars that start on their own?

actually both are equally impressive as they are/were state of the art in their era. but we both know the 2015 is a much better car.

[swagga]

Same with a prime Kareem, who could also only win one title, and who, in fact, had considerably less team success in his four years that he played with Wilt.

But the main difference was, Kareem was losing to pitiful title teams, while Chamberlain was taking trash rosters to within an eyelash of beating HOF-laden Dynasties,...and in fact DID beat the eight-time defending champions (in a blowout BTW), AND, also knocked off the '72 Bucks, whom virtually everyone had predicted would be the next great dynasty after their '71 title romp.

how is this related to cousy?

anyways, losing to HOF teams or to barely better teams is still losing to better teams. if you can drop 50 a game you better win something or you are playing the wrong way, especially with a roster with other HOF players.

gramps I shitted on you enough for today.

[L.Kizzle]

actually both are equally impressive as they are/were state of the art in their era. but we both know the 2015 is a much better car.
So you're sayin in about 40 years someone will be better than Jordan, just from evolution alone? Wade has nowhere near the acolades as Cousy but because of the state of the art era he plays in, he's better.

[MiseryCityTexas]

the 60s was allegedly a bad era for basketball but Wilt only won two championships in that era. Pettit only won one ring in that era. Okay whatever in the **** you people say.

[LoneyROY7]

Anyone who genuinely thinks Bob Cousy is better than Dwyane Wade at basketball (or even remotely close) is out of their f*cking mind. End of story.

[Roundball_Rock]

Cousy easily.

Rings: Cousy 6, Wade 3
MVP's: Cousy 1, Wade 0
All-NBA 1st: Cousy 10, 2
Top 5 in MVP voting: Cousy 4, Wade 2

Cousy dominated his era in a way Wade simply did not. Wade has among the worst durability of any top 30 all-time player. Wade has missed significant parts of 7 seasons. Had he been more durable he would be higher on the all-time list.

[Marchesk]

Anyone who genuinely thinks Bob Cousy is better than Dwyane Wade at basketball (or even remotely close) is out of their f*cking mind. End of story.

Not really. We can't time travel either player or have them grow up in the same era. So, we're stuck with comparing careers, and Cousy had a better career. He had more impact on the game and has better accolades.

Otherwise, it's just idle speculation. Cousy is what, 80-something now? Of course Wade is better now.

[aj1987]

Cousy easily.

Rings: Cousy 6, Wade 3
MVP's: Cousy 1, Wade 0
All-NBA 1st: Cousy 10, 2
Top 5 in MVP voting: Cousy 4, Wade 2

Cousy dominated his era in a way Wade simply did not. Wade has among the worst durability of any top 30 all-time player. Wade has missed significant parts of 7 seasons. Had he been more durable he would be higher on the all-time list.
:roll: @ this Pippen stan. Deal with it, kid. Wade >> Pippen and it's not particularly close.

Stupid thread is stupid. Wade is at worst top 25. Cousy? Not even close. It's like comparing a Ferrari to a golf cart.


Not really. We can't time travel either player or have them grow up in the same era. So, we're stuck with comparing careers, and Cousy had a better career. He had more impact on the game and has better accolades.

Otherwise, it's just idle speculation. Cousy is what, 80-something now? Of course Wade is better now.
He played on teams with multiple HOF'ers in their primes and peaks. LOL @ winning the MVP with 20/5/7 45% TS on a 44 win team (yeah, I know that they had the best record that season LOL). Career averages of 18/5/8on 44% TS? That shit is Brandon Jenningsesque. Heck, replace Cousy with Jennings and he's probably win more rings and MVP's than him.

[Marchesk]

:roll: @ this Pippen stan. Deal with it, kid. Wade >> Pippen and it's not particularly close.

Stupid thread is stupid. Wade is at worst top 25. Cousy? Not even close. It's like comparing a Ferrari to a golf cart.

Cousy and Mikan aren't ranked as high as their impact on the game was, because they played in the 50s. But if we're going by impact on the history of the game, Wade has no argument.

[greatest-ever]

Not really. We can't time travel either player or have them grow up in the same era. So, we're stuck with comparing careers, and Cousy had a better career. He had more impact on the game and has better accolades.

Otherwise, it's just idle speculation. Cousy is what, 80-something now? Of course Wade is better now.
Or why don't you actually look at level of play instead of just counting rings? Wade simply played at a higher more dominant level and the numbers prove this. And if u adjust for pace inflation Wade's numbers look even more superior.

Saying Cousy had "more impact on the game" is just a empty meaningless statement unless you can back it up with facts and statistics.

[Marchesk]

Or why don't you actually look at level of play instead of just counting rings? Wade simply played at a higher more dominant level and the numbers prove this. And if u adjust for pace inflation Wade's numbers look even more superior.

Saying Cousy had "more impact on the game" is just a empty meaningless statement unless you can back it up with facts and statistics.

By more impact on the game, I meant Cousy changed how the game was played at his position. He was a pioneer. As for pace, Cousy was averaging 7-9 assists in the slower paced 50s, and putting up from 18-21 ppg.

His career per 36 is 19/5.1/7.9.

Wades is 23.9/4.9/5.9.

Wade was the better scorer, but that's his role as SG, and Cousy was the leading assist guy as a PG in the 50s.

It's really not the best comparison. A West/Wade argument is better.

[Roundball_Rock]

Stupid thread is stupid. Wade is at worst top 25. Cousy? Not even close. It's like comparing a Ferrari to a golf cart.

Cousy is top 20. Wade is top 25-30 in my book.

Face it, Wade's lack of durability hurts him in all-time rankings. If you rank players simply by peak level Wade would be much higher on people's lists but when you missed 15, 20, 30 games 7 times in 12 seasons that diminishes the impact you had.

I am not sure what Pippen has to do with Wade vs. Cousy. :oldlol:

[Jacks3]

You think Cousy is one of the 20 best players ever? :roll:

[greatest-ever]

By more impact on the game, I meant Cousy changed how the game was played at his position. He was a pioneer. As for pace, Cousy was averaging 7-9 assists in the slower paced 50s, and putting up from 18-21 ppg.

His career per 36 is 19/5.1/7.9.

Wades is 23.9/4.9/5.9.

Wade was the better scorer, but that's his role as SG, and Cousy was the leading assist guy as a PG in the 50s.

It's really not the best comparison. A West/Wade argument is better.
Being a pioneer doesn't always have to do with how great you are. Guys like Mikan and Petitt were pioneers, you wouldn't take them over Shaq and Duncan would you?

And yeah cousy was averaging 7-9 assists he was a point guard so he should, and no the pace was not slow. And cousy was pretty inefficient at scoring .446 ts% is not worth a second look. And are we leaving out defense which wade def had more impact in.

Yeah, wade-west is a better comparison and cousy doesn't belong in the same breath as those 2.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Honestly, would someone even take Cousy over Ricky Rubio?

[tpols]

Like comparing Mikan to shaq:oldlol:

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Also, did LAZERUSS really compare someone who shot 35% in a weak era to one of the most efficient/greatest shooting guards of all time in Steve Nash?! Terrible comparison.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

The great D Wade has the same amount of 1st Teams as Tracy McGrady.

Idc how many media awards he has. He deserved 1st team in 09, 10, 11 without a doubt. In fact, I'd say he was the 2nd best player in the NBA all three of those years after LeBron.

[Marchesk]

Being a pioneer doesn't always have to do with how great you are. Guys like Mikan and Petitt were pioneers, you wouldn't take them over Shaq and Duncan would you?

Are they growing up in the same era? What is the argument here, that you would take Wade in a pickup game over a time traveled Bob Cousy? Okay.

Would you take time traveled Wade over Cousy on Russell's Celtics? Are you sure?

They didn't get to play on the court at the same time. This isn't a Nash/Wade comparison, where someone can say Nash has 2 MVPs over Wade, but Wade has 3 titles.

So if it's about who had the better career, it's definitely Cousy, at least to this point.

[MiseryCityTexas]

Honestly, would someone even take Cousy over Ricky Rubio?

I would. Cousy was a better scorer than Rubio. Cousy was capable of scoring over much bigger defenders. I seen Cousy's very last game on NBA TV awhile ago, and he looked like he could play in today's game easily.

[Marchesk]

Like comparing Mikan to shaq:oldlol:

Career-wise, that is a good comparison. Of course we're all taking Shaq over Mikan in an all-time fantasy draft. Part of that is we don't know what Mikan would be like growing up in the modern era. But what if we were talking prime healthy Walton vs Shaq? Now it's a bit closer.

Someone else mentioned Duncan vs Petit. Pettit was great. Again, we don't know what he would be like growing up in the modern era. The big difference here is that Duncan isn't a freak of nature like Shaq, so it's less out of the realm to think Pettit could have been as good.

[TheMan]

Wade >>> Cousy

How is this even a debate? :facepalm

and I loathe Wade but he's a beast, top 20-25. Cousy isn't top 40 IMO, sure he was a pioneer but that doesn't mean his skillset would be transferable in today's game, Wade would absolutely destroy the 50's era. That's like trying to argue Babe Ruth > Albert Pujols, just look at them side by side, one is a pudgy dude, the other is made of rock :facepalm
http://sinekpartners.typepad.com/.a/6a00d834525fff69e201310ff8990c970c-pi
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/images/2007/muscfit_may07cover.jpg

[Marchesk]

Your 2X MVP:

http://usatftw.files.wordpress.com/2014/03/usatsi_7731182.jpg

League leading rebounder:

http://redsarmy.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/nba_kevin_love.png

One of the greats of this generation:

http://homepages.wmich.edu/~jcn3231/Dirk%20Header.jpg

[Marchesk]

^ Those are some seriously impressive physical specimans. There's noway anyone in the 50s or 60s could compare to the HGH ridden, nutrition enhanced, weight lifting freaks of today, like above. They wouldn't be able to even get on the court with monsters like that.

[MiseryCityTexas]

Wade >>> Cousy

How is this even a debate? :facepalm

and I loathe Wade but he's a beast, top 20-25. Cousy isn't top 40 IMO, sure he was a pioneer but that doesn't mean his skillset would be transferable in today's game, Wade would absolutely destroy the 50's era. That's like trying to argue Babe Ruth > Albert Pujols, just look at them side by side, one is a pudgy dude, the other is made of rock :facepalm
http://sinekpartners.typepad.com/.a/6a00d834525fff69e201310ff8990c970c-pi
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/images/2007/muscfit_may07cover.jpg


I don't even think Steroids were as big in Babe Ruth's era of baseball compared to today, so I guess technically he is better than everyone in baseball.

[Roundball_Rock]

Wow, so Pujols>Babe Ruth? :wtf: Ruth dominated his sport in a way no one approaches, except for Gretzky.

Cousy is top 20 in terms of accomplishments. 6 rings, a MVP, 10 all-NBA first teams. That can't be ignored. Wade does not come close to Cousy's resume. In an all-time draft I would take Wade but you have to credit the achievements of players of the past in all-time rankings.

[Marchesk]

All-time rankings really should be based on career resume, not who people think would be better on the court today. That's conjecture, but how a player performed over their career is factual (at least as far as stats, accolades, and team success goes).

Cousy > Wade career-wise. And Mikan should be top 10, tbh.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

All-time rankings really should be based on career resume, not who people think would be better on the court today. That's conjecture, but how a player performed over their career is factual (at least as far as stats, accolades, and team success goes).

Cousy > Wade career-wise. And Mikan should be top 10, tbh.
By this token Mikan > Wilt. He would have more MVPs (had they given the award), more Rings and more/equally dominant relative to his competition.

[L.Kizzle]

By this token Mikan > Wilt. He would have more MVPs (had given the award), more Rings and more/equally dominant relative to his competition.
Mikan and Wilt played a few years apart from each other and Wilt was the more dominant player.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Mikan and Wilt played a few years apart from each other and Wilt was the more dominant player.
That is debatable.

[Roundball_Rock]

All-time rankings really should be based on career resume, not who people think would be better on the court today. That's conjecture, but how a player performed over their career is factual (at least as far as stats, accolades, and team success goes)

Agreed.

Mikan is a special case. When he returned to the league and played in the shot clock era he was an average player putting up 10/8. He had remained dominant then he would be looked at much more favorably today.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Agreed.

Mikan is a special case. When he returned to the league and played in the shot clock era he was an average player. He had remained dominant then he would be looked at much more favorably today.

lol Mikan had serious injury problems. He was not the same when he came back.

What about Wilt/Cousy in the 3 point era?

[tpols]

Career-wise, that is a good comparison. Of course we're all taking Shaq over Mikan in an all-time fantasy draft. Part of that is we don't know what Mikan would be like growing up in the modern era. But what if we were talking prime healthy Walton vs Shaq? Now it's a bit closer.

Someone else mentioned Duncan vs Petit. Pettit was great. Again, we don't know what he would be like growing up in the modern era. The big difference here is that Duncan isn't a freak of nature like Shaq, so it's less out of the realm to think Pettit could have been as good.
It wouldn't matter if Mikn grew up in the 80s like Shaq..he's so physically inferior to him there's nothing skill or training wise he could gain to get an edge. He got lucky he played in an inferior era.



Dwayne wade would run cousy off the court.. don't care about Steve Nash as he was not only better athlete than cousy he also is among the greatest shooters of all time which allowed him to overcome his lack of athleticism compared to other players.. cousy couldn't shoot for shit according to his percentage and would be Bobby Hurley today.

[MiseryCityTexas]

People act like Cousy was some bum. He was like the only player of his era that could knock down reversal layups over much bigger defenders.

[LAZERUSS]

Wade >>> Cousy

How is this even a debate? :facepalm

and I loathe Wade but he's a beast, top 20-25. Cousy isn't top 40 IMO, sure he was a pioneer but that doesn't mean his skillset would be transferable in today's game, Wade would absolutely destroy the 50's era. That's like trying to argue Babe Ruth > Albert Pujols, just look at them side by side, one is a pudgy dude, the other is made of rock :facepalm
http://sinekpartners.typepad.com/.a/6a00d834525fff69e201310ff8990c970c-pi
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/images/2007/muscfit_may07cover.jpg

So you are going strictly on "body-building" to determine greatness in a sport?

Again, how did Nash win TWO MVPs just a few years ago?

How did a 6-8 scrawny non-athletic Kevin Love run away with a rpg title a couple of years ago(and in only 36 mpg.)

How did Rodman slaughter the likes of Hakeem, Robinson, and even Shaq on the glass year-after-year?


In baseball, let me ask you this...

How did Greg Maddux, with a fatsball that barely broke 90 mph on the gun, completely shut-down hitters with back-to-back ERAs of 1.56 and 1.63, right in the middle of the "steroid era?" Same with scrawny Pedro Martinez who was putting up a 1.74 ERA at the peak of the "steroid era?"

Barry Bonds. At his peak (and obviously PED-enhanced), his longest HR was 490 ft. I haven't studied Pujols, but I do know that the massive Mark McGuire hit one 545 feet, with several more well over 500 ft.

Guess what... a 5-11 190 lb Mickey Mantle was hitting them MUCH further. In fact, the name "tape measure" was given because of his prodigious HRs. There are estimates of Mantle hitting a TON of 500+ ft homers, and doing so from both sides of the plate. Even in injury-wracked and alcoholic seasons he was hitting ONE-HANDED homeruns well over 400 feet.

Who throws harder...Arodis Chapman...he of the 105 mph fastball...or Nolan Ryan...who clocked 101? Guess what...Ryan...and quite easily actually. Difference in guns. Even Mitch Williams acknowledged that very fact just a couple of years ago on the Dan Patrick show. Hell, a 46 year old Ryan, on an injured arm hit 98 mph on his very last pitch.

I have already used Kareem as a "bridge" in basketball.

How about Ted Williams in baseball?

So, Ruth hit against non-integrated pitching, and was rotund, chicken-legged man. Of course, let's completely ignore the fact that he still holds World Series Pitching records. Or the FACT, that unlike hitters like Sammy Sosa, who used a "corked bat" (along with PEDs) to hit over 60 HRs in a couple of seasons...Ruth was swinging a 42 oz bat. Yes...the equivalent of a caveman's club...and he too was hitting tape-measure shots.

But back to Williams. In his rookie season, in 1939, Williams batted .327 with 31 HRs. In that same season, Jimmy Foxx batted .364 with 35 HRs. Just the season before, in 1938, Foxx batted .349 with 50 HRs. Go back a few years, to a peak Foxx, in 1932, when he clubbed 58 HRs with a .364 BA. Guess what, a well-past his prime Ruth batted .341 with 41 HRs in that same season. He would be out of baseball in three more years. However, go back a few years, to 1927, and a peak Ruth smashed 60 HRs.

What does Ruth hitting 60 HRs in 1927 have to do with Williams in 1939? Williams would face some of the same pitching that Ruth clubbed in 1927, and in fact, more of them in 1932, when a washed-up Ruth hit 41. And he would face almost the same exact pitching that a Foxx knocked 50 HRs against just the year before Wiliams' rookie season.

Ok, so what? Baseball wasn't integrated in 1939. Nor was it integrated in 1941, either, when Williams batted .406 with 37 HRs. HOWEVER, it WAS integrated, and had been for 10 years in 1957, when a 38 year old Williams batted .388 with 38 HRs.

Oh, and in 1957 Henry Aaron won his only MVP in a season in which he batted .322 with 44 HRs (in 675 PAs BTW.) Just the year before that, in 1956, Mickey Mantle won the triple-crown with a .356 BA, and 52 HRs. And just the year before that, in 1955, Willie Mays belted 51 HRs.

Back to Aaron. In 1971, and at age 37, he hit a career high 47 HRs. In 1973, a rapidly declining Aaron hit 40 HRs...and in only 465 PAs. 16 seasons between a 44 HR season, and a 40 HR season (and on a far more prodigious level.)

Mays hit 51 HRs in 1955, and then 52 in 1965.

As you can see, there is a clear pattern there. These greats were facing many of the same pitchers that the greats before them faced. And were just as dominant in 10-15+ year increments.

Willie McCovey and Willie Stargell were hitting tape measure HRs early in their careers, in the early 60's, and were still doing so in the 70's. As was Reggie Jackson, who crushed a ball in the '71 ASG that some believe might have been one of the longest HRs ever...had it not hit a facade some 450 ft away. "Mr. October" would be dominating World Series into the late 70's. Yet, at his peak, in 1969, when he hit 47 HRs, he was no more a dominant power hitter than Harmon Killebrew, who hit 49 (and who also hit 49 in 1964.) Frank Howard was 6-8 and weighed 270 lbs, and he hit 48 that same season.

In 1973, when Aaron was smacking 40 HRs in 392 ABs, a young Mike Schmidt hit 18 in 367 ABs. Schmidt would hit 48 in 1980, and as late as 1987 he was still hitting 35.

Again...a CLEAR pattern. All of these "greats" faced many of the same pitching, that the "greats" of the previous eras faced...and their numbers were all similar at their peaks...albeit, Ruth's were more staggering.

How hard did the pitchers of the 40's, 50's 60's, and 70's throw? There have been scientific studies which had Feller at...get this...107.6 mph!

http://www.efastball.com/baseball/stats/fastest-pitch-speed-in-major-leagues/

You want more? How about Bob Turley in the 50's... 103.2 mph.

Perhaps the hardest thrower of all-time also pitched in the 50's, and it is a name who will probably not recognize. A scrawny, nerdy, Steve Dalkowski. How hard did he throw?

http://www.hardballtimes.com/delving-into-the-dalkowski-depths/


“He was unbelievable. He threw a lot faster than Ryan. It’s hard to believe but he did,” asserted Earl Weaver, who watched Nolan Ryan pitch dozens of times, and managed Dalkowski.

Paul Blair, who batted against Ryan, Sandy Koufax, Sam McDowell, Vida Blue, Dick Radatz and Goose Gossage, said of Dalkowski, “He threw the hardest I ever saw.”

A near-identical statement came from Cal Ripken Sr., who caught Dalkowski and whose professional career as a player, manager and coach spanned five decades. He observed Ryan, J.R. Richard, Dwight Gooden, Roger Clemens and Randy Johnson: “Steve Dalkowski was the hardest thrower I ever saw.”

Pat Gillick who was a teammate of Dalkowski before embarking on his decades-long career as a successful front office executive, put it this way: “As 40 years go by, a lot of stories get embellished. But this guy was legit. He had one of those arms that come once in a lifetime.”

Consider this anecdote related by Pat Jordan in his classic exploration of pitchers and pitching, The Suitors of Spring:

“
… a hot spring day in Miami, Fla. Dalkowski is pitching batting practice for the Baltimore Orioles while Ted Williams watches curiously from behind the batting cage. After a few minutes Williams picks up a bat and steps into the cage. Reporters and players, who had been watching with only casual interest, move quickly around the cage to watch this classic confrontation. Williams takes three level, disciplined practice swings, cocks his bat and then motions with his head for Dalkowski to deliver the ball. Dalkowski goes into his spare pump. His right leg rises a few inches off the ground. His left arm pulls back and then flicks out from the side of his body like an attacking cobra. There is a sharp crack as his wrist snaps the ball toward the plate. Then silence. The ball does not rip through the air like most fastballs, but seems to just reappear silently in the catcher’s glove as if it had somehow decomposed and then recomposed itself without anyone having followed its progress.

The catcher holds the ball for a few seconds. It is just a few inches under Williams’ chin. Williams looks back at the ball, then out at Dalkowski, who is squinting at him. Then he drops the bat and steps out of the cage.

The writers immediately ask Williams how fast Steve Dalkowski really is. Williams, whose eyes were said to be so sharp that he could count the stitches on a baseball as it rotated toward the plate, says that he did not see the pitch, and that Steve Dalkowski is the fastest pitcher he ever faced and probably who ever lived, and that he would be damned if he would ever face him again if he could help it.

Teddy Ballgame had looked over a few fastballs in his day, including those of Bob Feller, Hal Newhouser, Bob Turley, Herb Score and Ryne Duren.


Back to the 60's...Sandy Koufax was throwing over 98 MPH...which is deceptive, since he had to SLOW it down to control it.

The 70's...and none other than Nolan Ryan...who threw 108.1 and backed it up with a 108.0.

I could go on, but Ryan was throwing no-hitters in the 90's and had a season of over 300 Ks as recently as 1989, and in only 239 IP. His best ERA in the 70's was 2.28; in the 80's, 1.69 (albeit strike year), and even into the 90's, and at age 44 he had a season of 2.91 (at the beginning of the "steroid era", as well.

What does all of that above tell you?

That Mr. Ruth would have done quite well in Pujol's era.

[tpols]

^^

Cousy was a 45TS shooter.. Nash was 60TS

You can't compare them. Nash was an all time great shooter. On top of being a better passer than cousy. He was also two inches taller than cousy and longer as well. Kevin love is not weak..he's strong as hell in his lower body. And has great instincts.


You guys just choose white guys in the current era and say "look! White guy doing good!" As your argument. Dumb.. white guys are a minority now relative to that era.. athleticism is greatly improved. They have had to compensate with tremendous skill.

[Marchesk]

By this token Mikan > Wilt. He would have more MVPs (had they given the award), more Rings and more/equally dominant relative to his competition.

*shrug*

I'll defer to others who know more about Mikan. I think Wilt is top 3 with GOAT credentials, but if someone wanted to seriously make a case for Mikan in the top 3 based on relative careers, then that's fine by me.

Obviously, I think Wilt is the superior speciman, and the same with Shaq. But we don't know what kind of player Mikan would be growing up in the modern era. Saying that Mikan would suck today is to ignore the fact that he learned basketball in the 40s. What would Shaq's game be if he grew up back then? Would they even think to have him playing basketball?

Anyway, these all-time rankings seem to mix up several things. On the one hand, you have an individual's stats and awards. Then on the other, you have team success. And then on a third, you have people's opinions as to who is actually the better player if you could put everyone in their prime in the same league, ignoring that players grew up in different eras with different rules.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

So you are going strictly on "body-building" to determine greatness in a sport?

Again, how did Nash win TWO MVPs just a few years ago?

How did a 6-8 scrawny non-athletic Kevin Love run away with a rpg title a couple of years ago(and in only 36 mpg.)

How did Rodman slaughter the likes of Hakeem, Robinson, and even Shaq on the glass year-after-year?


In baseball, let me ask you this...

How did Greg Maddux, with a fatsball that barely broke 90 mph on the gun, completely shut-down hitters with back-to-back ERAs of 1.56 and 1.63, right in the middle of the "steroid era?" Same with scrawny Pedro Martinez who was putting up a 1.74 ERA at the peak of the "steroid era?"

Barry Bonds. At his peak (and obviously PED-enhanced), his longest HR was 490 ft. I haven't studied Pujols, but I do know that the massive Mark McGuire hit one 545 feet, with several more well over 500 ft.

Guess what... a 5-11 190 lb Mickey Mantle was hitting them MUCH further. In fact, the name "tape measure" was given because of his prodigious HRs. There are estimates of Mantle hitting a TON of 500+ ft homers, and doing so from both sides of the plate. Even in injury-wracked and alcoholic seasons he was hitting ONE-HANDED homeruns well over 400 feet.

Who throws harder...Arodis Chapman...he of the 105 mph fastball...or Nolan Ryan...who clocked 101? Guess what...Ryan...and quite easily actually. Difference in guns. Even Mitch Williams acknowledged that very fact just a couple of years ago on the Dan Patrick show. Hell, a 46 year old Ryan, on an injured arm hit 98 mph on his very last pitch.

I have already used Kareem as a "bridge" in basketball.

How about Ted Williams in baseball?

So, Ruth hit against non-integrated pitching, and was rotund, chicken-legged man. Of course, let's completely ignore the fact that he still holds World Series Pitching records. Or the FACT, that unlike hitters like Sammy Sosa, who used a "corked bat" (along with PEDs) to hit over 60 HRs in a couple of seasons...Ruth was swinging a 42 oz bat. Yes...the equivalent of a caveman's club...and he too was hitting tape-measure shots.

But back to Williams. In his rookie season, in 1939, Williams batted .327 with 31 HRs. In that same season, Jimmy Foxx batted .364 with 35 HRs. Just the season before, in 1938, Foxx batted .349 with 50 HRs. Go back a few years, to a peak Foxx, in 1932, when he clubbed 58 HRs with a .364 BA. Guess what, a well-past his prime Ruth batted .341 with 41 HRs in that same season. He would be out of baseball in three more years. However, go back a few years, to 1927, and a peak Ruth smashed 60 HRs.

What does Ruth hitting 60 HRs in 1927 have to do with Williams in 1939? Williams would face some of the same pitching that Ruth clubbed in 1927, and in fact, more of them in 1932, when a washed-up Ruth hit 41. And he would face almost the same exact pitching that a Foxx knocked 50 HRs against just the year before Wiliams' rookie season.

Ok, so what? Baseball wasn't integrated in 1939. Nor was it integrated in 1941, either, when Williams batted .406 with 37 HRs. HOWEVER, it WAS integrated, and had been for 10 years in 1957, when a 38 year old Williams batted .388 with 38 HRs.

Oh, and in 1957 Henry Aaron won his only MVP in a season in which he batted .322 with 44 HRs (in 675 PAs BTW.) Just the year before that, in 1956, Mickey Mantle won the triple-crown with a .356 BA, and 52 HRs. And just the year before that, in 1955, Willie Mays belted 51 HRs.

Back to Aaron. In 1971, and at age 37, he hit a career high 47 HRs. In 1973, a rapidly declining Aaron hit 40 HRs...and in only 465 PAs. 16 seasons between a 44 HR season, and a 40 HR season (and on a far more prodigious level.)

Mays hit 51 HRs in 1955, and then 52 in 1965.

As you can see, there is a clear pattern there. These greats were facing many of the same pitchers that the greats before them faced. And were just as dominant in 10-15+ year increments.

Willie McCovey and Willie Stargell were hitting tape measure HRs early in their careers, in the early 60's, and were still doing so in the 70's. As was Reggie Jackson, who crushed a ball in the '71 ASG that some believe might have been one of the longest HRs ever...had it not hit a facade some 450 ft away. "Mr. October" would be dominating World Series into the late 70's. Yet, at his peak, in 1969, when he hit 47 HRs, he was no more a dominant power hitter than Harmon Killebrew, who hit 49 (and who also hit 49 in 1964.) Frank Howard was 6-8 and weighed 270 lbs, and he hit 48 that same season.

In 1973, when Aaron was smacking 40 HRs in 392 ABs, a young Mike Schmidt hit 18 in 367 ABs. Schmidt would hit 48 in 1980, and as late as 1987 he was still hitting 35.

Again...a CLEAR pattern. All of these "greats" faced many of the same pitching, that the "greats" of the previous eras faced...and their numbers were all similar at their peaks...albeit, Ruth's were more staggering.

How hard did the pitchers of the 40's, 50's 60's, and 70's throw? There have been scientific studies which had Feller at...get this...107.6 mph!

http://www.efastball.com/baseball/stats/fastest-pitch-speed-in-major-leagues/

You want more? How about Bob Turley in the 50's... 103.2 mph.

Perhaps the hardest thrower of all-time also pitched in the 50's, and it is a name who will probably not recognize. A scrawny, nerdy, Steve Dalkowski. How hard did he throw?

http://www.hardballtimes.com/delving-into-the-dalkowski-depths/



Back to the 60's...Sandy Koufax was throwing over 98 MPH...which is deceptive, since he had to SLOW it down to control it.

The 70's...and none other than Nolan Ryan...who threw 108.1 and backed it up with a 108.0.

I could go on, but Ryan was throwing no-hitters in the 90's and had a season of over 300 Ks as recently as 1989, and in only 239 IP. His best ERA in the 70's was 2.28; in the 80's, 1.69 (albeit strike year), and even into the 90's, and at age 44 he had a season of 2.91 (at the beginning of the "steroid era", as well.

What does all of that above tell you?

That Mr. Ruth would have done quite well in Pujol's era.

tl;dr 60s = weak era

[SouBeachTalents]

Comparing Cousy to Babe Ruth is an insult. Ruth had a 13 year average of 46 HR's, 138 RBI, and a .356 average. Not only that, he won nearly 100 games as a pitcher at a 67% clip, and had a career ERA of 2.28. Ruth is the GOAT

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Steve Nash is not unathletic. this is a myth. watch him play in his prime he had great quickness. Cousy on the other hand is EXTREMELY unathletic. This dude can't dribble with his left hand naturally and has to look at the ball frequently while dribbling.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Wade >>> Cousy

How is this even a debate? :facepalm

and I loathe Wade but he's a beast, top 20-25. Cousy isn't top 40 IMO, sure he was a pioneer but that doesn't mean his skillset would be transferable in today's game, Wade would absolutely destroy the 50's era. That's like trying to argue Babe Ruth > Albert Pujols, just look at them side by side, one is a pudgy dude, the other is made of rock
How old did you say you were? This is like Kobetard logic on steroids.. :lol

[Eric Cartman]

Steve Nash is not unathletic. this is a myth. watch him play in his prime he had great quickness. Cousy on the other hand is EXTREMELY unathletic. This dude can't dribble with his left hand naturally and has to look at the ball frequently while dribbling.

This.

Can't believe some posters are comparing him to Babe freaking Ruth to make their argument :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

[Marchesk]

^^

Cousy was a 45TS shooter.. Nash was 60TS

You can't compare them. Nash was an all time great shooter. On top of being a better passer than cousy. He was also two inches taller than cousy and longer as well. Kevin love is not weak..he's strong as hell in his lower body. And has great instincts.

Cousy also played in a much lower FG% era where there wasn't an emphasis on efficiency, they had no advanced stats, and no 3pt line to provide spacing. Ask Cavs about heights back then vs now.

The point about Nash, Dirk and Love isn't that they aren't very good players, but that they're very good players in a league with guys far superior to them athletically. And yet you guys argue that with today's superior athletes, there's no way someone like Cousy could do well.

Bird is one of the greatest players ever, and he had little muscle tone and was way less athletic than guys he was much better than. So that just proves that if you're skilled and no how to play the game, you don't need to be super athletic. There was no need for Cousy to be like Westbrook in the 50s in order to be successful. And obviously you don't need to be that way in the modern era either. Guys like Stocton and Nash are proof of that.

[Marchesk]

Steve Nash is not unathletic. this is a myth. watch him play in his prime he had great quickness. Cousy on the other hand is EXTREMELY unathletic. This dude can't dribble with his left hand naturally and has to look at the ball frequently while dribbling.

What makes you think Cousy wasn't quick? You do realize the difference in dribbling rules, right? Cavs has posted enough video of Cousy to prove he was an elite dribbler. The ball was on a string. He was also an elite passer.

There is zero reason to think that Cousy couldn't be a very good distributing point guard in today's league, other than OMG white 50s/60s player. Of course he would need to adapt to the modern game, but it's still basketball and not some other sport they're playing.

The one place where Cousy would have trouble, based on what I've seen anyway, is his outside shot. He would have to change his mechanics.

[GrapeApe]

I have a lot of respect for Cousy, but do you guys realize how close Wade is to being firmly in the discussion for top 15 all time? If he doesn't get hurt in '07, he likely has an MVP on his resume (was the frontrunner at 29/8/6 on 49% and a league leading 30+ PER). If LeBron plays slightly better in the '11 finals, Wade has 2 FMVP's. I'm not even talking about both of those things happening. If just ONE had happened, he has 3 rings, a FMVP, and an MVP, or 4 rings and 2 FMVP's. Either one puts him in extremely elite company and top 15 territory. I know, I know, a lot of players have their share of if's and close calls, but I'm just trying to put things in perspective as to how great Wade's career has been. Even as things stand, you'd be hard pressed to name 20 guys with a better combination of resume, career numbers, and peak play.

[navy]

Cavs has posted enough video of Cousy to prove he was an elite dribbler. The ball was on a string.

:biggums:


:roll:

[tpols]

Cousy also played in a much lower FG% era where there wasn't an emphasis on efficiency, they had no advanced stats, and no 3pt line to provide spacing. Ask Cavs about heights back then vs now.

The point about Nash, Dirk and Love isn't that they aren't very good players, but that they're very good players in a league with guys far superior to them athletically. And yet you guys argue that with today's superior athletes, there's no way someone like Cousy could do well.

Bird is one of the greatest players ever, and he had little muscle tone and was way less athletic than guys he was much better than. So that just proves that if you're skilled and no how to play the game, you don't need to be super athletic. There was no need for Cousy to be like Westbrook in the 50s in order to be successful. And obviously you don't need to be that way in the modern era either. Guys like Stocton and Nash are proof of that.

Cousy was a terrible shooter.. love and especially Dirk Bird and Nash are all time great shooters. They have compensated for their lack of athleticism with all time great skill.

Cousy could dribble but he wasn't even half the shooters they were.. if you want to attribute that to era fine.. cousy was born in a weak shooting era. But Steve Nash was also bigger and quicker.. His DNA came from a professional soccer player who had to hAve similar quickness.. Bird and Dirk were both the best shooters for their size. wtf did cousy come from? There's no comparison.. He would've been a college player at best nowadays

[LAZERUSS]

I have a lot of respect for Cousy, but do you guys realize how close Wade is to being firmly in the discussion for top 15 all time? If he doesn't get hurt in '07, he likely has an MVP on his resume (was the frontrunner at 29/8/6 on 49% and a league leading 30+ PER). If LeBron plays slightly better in the '11 finals, Wade has 2 FMVP's. I'm not even talking about both of those things happening. If just ONE had happened, he has 3 rings, a FMVP, and an MVP, or 4 rings and 2 FMVP's. Either one puts him in extremely elite company and top 15 territory. I know, I know, a lot of players have their share of if's and close calls, but I'm just trying to put things in perspective as to how great Wade's career has been. Even as things stand, you'd be hard pressed to name 20 guys with a better combination of resume, career numbers, and peak play.

Not arguing that fact. But again, Nash was no more dominant in his era, than Cousy was in his.

The OP could just as easily have swapped Cousy for Nash and made the same exact comparison.

And yes, both Cousy and Nash were EQUAL physically and in skill-levels.

[L.Kizzle]

I have a lot of respect for Cousy, but do you guys realize how close Wade is to being firmly in the discussion for top 15 all time? If he doesn't get hurt in '07, he likely has an MVP on his resume (was the frontrunner at 29/8/6 on 49% and a league leading 30+ PER). If LeBron plays slightly better in the '11 finals, Wade has 2 FMVP's. I'm not even talking about both of those things happening. If just ONE had happened, he has 3 rings, a FMVP, and an MVP, or 4 rings and 2 FMVP's. Either one puts him in extremely elite company and top 15 territory. I know, I know, a lot of players have their share of if's and close calls, but I'm just trying to put things in perspective as to how great Wade's career has been. Even as things stand, you'd be hard pressed to name 20 guys with a better combination of resume, career numbers, and peak play.
If ...

[RoundMoundOfReb]

What makes you think Cousy wasn't quick? You do realize the difference in dribbling rules, right? Cavs has posted enough video of Cousy to prove he was an elite dribbler. The ball was on a string. He was also an elite passer.

There is zero reason to think that Cousy couldn't be a very good distributing point guard in today's league, other than OMG white 50s/60s player. Of course he would need to adapt to the modern game, but it's still basketball and not some other sport they're playing.

The one place where Cousy would have trouble, based on what I've seen anyway, is his outside shot. He would have to change his mechanics.
bahahah...this is why you 50s/60s stans can't be taken seriously


Yes i realize the difference in the dribbling rules but I have seen people from the same era switch dribbling hands to keep it away from defenders which Cousy never does. he NEVER switched hands unless he has to and then he still has a poor left hand (like in the opening gif)...he would get ripped everytime in today's league.

[Marchesk]

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m8qk66yQf41ruzeslo4_250.gif

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/y%20Crazy%20Shot/from%20Crazy%20Pass/Bob%20Cousy/to2.gif

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/y%20Crazy%20Shot/z%20Comparison/MJ/n%20Cooz/to.gif

[RoundMoundOfReb]

how do those gifs demonstrate excellent dribbling at all?

[Marchesk]

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mdf3xtgANK1renuivo1_500.gif

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mao5v4pn0A1renuivo1_400.gif

[Marchesk]

how do those gifs demonstrate excellent dribbling at all?

That's what I could find without going to video. Need Cavs to show up in here. It demonstrates his passing, quickness and court awareness.

[navy]

how do those gifs demonstrate excellent dribbling at all?
Nothing there couldnt be done by high schoolers...

[inclinerator]

didnt cousy admit today's handles were better?

[Marchesk]

didnt cousy admit today's handles were better?

Sure AI's are better, but he got to palm and carry the ball.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

He's lucky #5 is like a 6'1 175 lb wing-player otherwise that would've been picked. These gifs of him playing well against scrubs don't impress anyone. I could make similar gifs of players in high school and say they're better than D-wade

[navy]

didnt cousy admit today's handles were better?
Really? Not saying much as he couldnt even switch hands.

[Marchesk]

It's also like saying Shaq is the most physically dominant player in league history, while ignoring the fact that the refs were lenient on his offensive fouling in route to dunking on lots of people. Something that he might not have gotten away with in previous eras.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

You 60s fans sound just like Euroleague tbh. He always says the same shit that USA would stuggle with international rules because they're so strict (travelling/palming etc) etc...yet every time players adjust immediately and dominate.

[navy]

It's also like saying Shaq is the most physically dominant player in league history, while ignoring the fact that the refs were lenient on his offensive fouling in route to dunking on lots of people. Something that he might not have gotten away with in previous eras.
Regardless there where very few players as large as Shaq.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

It's also like saying Shaq is the most physically dominant player in league history, while ignoring the fact that the refs were lenient on his offensive fouling in route to dunking on lots of people. Something that he might not have gotten away with in previous eras.

it's also like you and many other 60s era fans touting how many blocks Wilt/Russell had while ignoring the inflation in these totals due to no 3 pt line. or ignoring pace of play.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

And Shaq was also fouled more often than probably any player ever. It goes both way. I don't buy that the Refs simply came together and conspired to give Shaq an advantage

[MiseryCityTexas]

^^

Cousy was a 45TS shooter.. Nash was 60TS

You can't compare them. Nash was an all time great shooter. On top of being a better passer than cousy. He was also two inches taller than cousy and longer as well. Kevin love is not weak..he's strong as hell in his lower body. And has great instincts.


You guys just choose white guys in the current era and say "look! White guy doing good!" As your argument. Dumb.. white guys are a minority now relative to that era.. athleticism is greatly improved. They have had to compensate with tremendous skill.

Refs were much more strict when it came to crediting players with assists back in the 50s and 60s also. Cousy probably averaged more assists than what the statsheet displayed.

[Marchesk]

it's also like you and many other 60s era fans touting how many blocks Wilt/Russell had while ignoring the inflation in these totals due to no 3 pt line. or ignoring pace of play.

Sure, but Wilt and Russell would be elite shot blockers in any era given their athleticism, length and timing.

One thing that doesn't need adjustment is assists. Cousy's assists weren't inflated. If anything, they were deflated in the 50s. Stricter rules and all.

[Marchesk]

And Shaq was also fouled more often than probably any player ever. It goes both way. I don't buy that the Refs simply came together and conspired to give Shaq an advantage

No, but he probably got preferential treatment because he was a big time attraction, similar to Jordan.

It was a little bit different time than in the past where guys like Kareem and Wilt and Mikan had rules changed to make it fairer on everyone else.

[GrapeApe]

If ...

Yep, and such is life. As a Heat fan I can't exactly complain because he's had a phenominal career and been the catalyst for 3 titles, but at the same time he seems to have been snake bit in a way.

[CavaliersFTW]

Steve Nash is not unathletic. this is a myth. watch him play in his prime he had great quickness. Cousy on the other hand is EXTREMELY unathletic. This dude can't dribble with his left hand naturally and has to look at the ball frequently while dribbling.
Oh FFS :oldlol:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-xa6546ixc

Cousy is 2nd only to Magic when it comes to open court coordination, peripheral vision, anticipation and dexterity. He's actually better than Nash at running the break.

You think it's not athletic? Try Cousy's best passes you see in that video. Only a puny 1% or so of his career exists on film, 99% is missing, yet those are CAREER highlight caliber passes of Steve Nash.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Oh FFS :oldlol:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-xa6546ixc

Cousy is 2nd only to Magic when it comes to open court coordination, peripheral vision, anticipation and dexterity. He's actually better than Nash at running the break.

You think it's not athletic? Try Cousy's best passes you see in that video. Only a puny 1% or so of his career exists on film, 99% is missing, yet those are CAREER highlight caliber passes of Steve Nash.

Once again, a lot of his passes are completed due the complete lack of athleticism from the defensive players. the average player was 6'4 195 at the start of cousy's career...the average player is now 6'7 218 (ignoring the fact that most players today are faster/quicker/better leapers as well)...and you can bitch about over listing of heights all you want (this may account for about 1 inch) but fact is most NBA players today under list their weight...

You using that video of Cousy plying well against scrubs as proof that Cousy > Wade is like me making a mix on V span dominating the Euroleague saying that he is >Wade. or of some high school kid dominating in high school and saying he's >Wade.

[CavaliersFTW]

Once again, a lot of his passes are completed due the complete lack of athleticism from the defensive players. the average player was 6'4 195 at the start of cousy's career...the average player is now 6'7 218 (ignoring the fact that most players today are faster/quicker/better leapers as well)...and you can bitch about over listing of heights all you want (this may account for about 1 inch) but fact is most NBA players today under list their weight...

You using that video of Cousy plying well against scrubs as proof that Cousy > Wade is like me making a mix on V span dominating the Euroleague saying that he is >Wade. or of some high school kid dominating in high school and saying he's >Wade.
None of that footage is from the "start" of Cousy's career... it's from the end of it when the "average" player was the same height and weight as Jordan era late 80's players. Try those passes in an empty gym with no defenders at all, see how easy they are show us the footage of you duplicating them :oldlol:

[Marchesk]

You using that video of Cousy plying well against scrubs as proof that Cousy > Wade is like me making a mix on V span dominating the Euroleague saying that he is >Wade. or of some high school kid dominating in high school and saying he's >Wade.

Alright, so time travel baby Wade from the hospital to someone's doorstep in 1928. How does Wade do in the 50s? Let's assume he escapes the worst of racism and gets into the league the same year Cousy does.

[Eric Cartman]

Oh FFS :oldlol:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-xa6546ixc

Cousy is 2nd only to Magic when it comes to open court coordination, peripheral vision, anticipation and dexterity. He's actually better than Nash at running the break.

You think it's not athletic? Try Cousy's best passes you see in that video. Only a puny 1% or so of his career exists on film, 99% is missing, yet those are CAREER highlight caliber passes of Steve Nash.

Anyone can look good using career highlights, actually Nash highlights have made me ejaculate semen many a time, this Cousy one did not. Only part they are equal is passing, nash beats him in everything else.

Also look at that weak ass one handed shot, scrub compared to one of the greatest shooters in NBA history.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

None of that footage is from the "start" of Cousy's career... it's from the end of it when the "average" player was the same height and weight as Jordan era late 80's players. Try those passes in an empty gym with no defenders at all, see how easy they are show us the footage of you duplicating them :oldlol:

Overall point still stands.

So now we're comparing Bob Cousy to me? :oldlol: Actually, that is probably a more fair comparison than Dwyane Wade.

[CavaliersFTW]

Anyone can look good using career highlights, actually Nash highlights have made me ejaculate semen many a time, this Cousy one did not.

Also look at that weak ass one handed shot, scrub compared to one of the greatest shooters in NBA history.
Those aren't career highlights :hammerhead:

99% of his career is missing... that's not the cream that has risen to the top, that's just a random 1%, hold out your hands I've got something for you to hold:

L

:cheers:

[RoundMoundOfReb]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16ga1Jo_cN0

this one video from one game has several highlight real passes. Some much more impessive than those Cousy passes with unnecessary flair.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

btw look at this finish: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16ga1Jo_cN0#t=169

lol at comparing his athleticism to Cousy's.

[CavaliersFTW]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16ga1Jo_cN0

this one video from one game has several highlight real passes. Some much more impessive than those Cousy passes with unnecessary flair.
Oh is that what we're calling his athleticism now?

http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/stephen-a-smith-laugh.gif

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Oh is that what we're calling his athleticism now?

http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/stephen-a-smith-laugh.gif
What?

[Marchesk]

btw look at this finish: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16ga1Jo_cN0#t=169

lol at comparing his athleticism to Cousy's.

I like how he extended his foot at Bryant while elevating 20 inches. That was a very good play, but that's not Westbrook exploding to the rim and embarrassing someone. Cousy exhibiting his quickness and control.

http://rs283.pbsrc.com/albums/kk308/tsheyunpeng/BobCousycrossmove.gif~c200

[CavaliersFTW]

btw look at this finish: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16ga1Jo_cN0#t=169

lol at comparing his athleticism to Cousy's.
Nobody even touches him. He just kicks Kobe to elevate a couple more inches.

Cousy gets mugged here and finishes strong http://youtu.be/o-xa6546ixc?t=11m2s

A much more impressive finish given the more physical non ticy-tac foul :applause:

[Eric Cartman]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16ga1Jo_cN0

this one video from one game has several highlight real passes. Some much more impessive than those Cousy passes with unnecessary flair.

I'll actually give Cousy being in the same sphere as Nash as a passer, but as a scorer, and ball handler? Not even close.

Look at Nash's stroke so pure and gentle, while Cousy is awkward and beast like, hence the bad fg%.

Also, Nash has the ball on a string any time dribbling it, Cousy looks like a 7th grader dribbling the basketball, couldn't use his off hand for shit.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Nobody even touches him. He just kicks Kobe to elevate a couple more inches.

Cousy gets mugged here and finishes strong http://youtu.be/o-xa6546ixc?t=11m2s

A much more impressive finish given the more physical non ticy-tac foul :applause:
The kick didn't push him up. Pushed Kobe away

That demonstrates no athleticism though. he just threw it up and it went in.

[navy]

The kick didn't push him up. Pushed Kobe away

That demonstrates no athleticism though. he just threw it up and it went in.
Wade does that shit in his sleep. :lol

[Marchesk]

That demonstrates no athleticism though. he just threw it up and it went in.

Quickness and control, doe. Maybe Nash was smoother and gentler when guiding it in, but Cousy was more in control.

[tpols]

Cousy is a shorter Nash with worse navigation efficiency, and Rubio level shooting. Guy would have been a literal clown today.. Doing dribbling exhibitions for little kids with a plastic red nose attached to his face.

[zoom17]

Bob Cousy would have won the skills challenge today:rolleyes:

[zoom17]

Cousy is a shorter Nash with worse navigation efficiency, and Rubio level shooting. Guy would have been a literal clown today.. Doing dribbling exhibitions for little kids with a plastic red nose attached to his face.

:roll:

[Marchesk]

Cousy is a shorter Nash with worse navigation efficiency, and Rubio level shooting. Guy would have been a literal clown today.. Doing dribbling exhibitions for little kids with a plastic red nose attached to his face.

His off-ball passing was elite. You have to adjust FG% by era. 50s players get an automatic 6% boost. Not everything deflates. Some things inflate.

Cousy adjusted FG% > AI FG%

[mehyaM24]

:roll: @ this Pippen stan. Deal with it, kid. Wade >> Pippen and it's not particularly close.

Stupid thread is stupid. Wade is at worst top 25. Cousy? Not even close. It's like comparing a Ferrari to a golf cart.

not particularly close? they're both ~30 range, idiot.

pippen's longevity, playmaking and defense >>>

6 titles, more all defensive teams >>>

[CavaliersFTW]

I'll actually give Cousy being in the same sphere as Nash as a passer, but as a scorer, and ball handler? Not even close.

Look at Nash's stroke so pure and gentle, while Cousy is awkward and beast like, hence the bad fg%.

Also, Nash has the ball on a string any time dribbling it, Cousy looks like a 7th grader dribbling the basketball, couldn't use his off hand for shit.
You guys don't even know the type of shots Cousy is taking :oldlol:

He's shooting the way he was taught to shoot, it was fundamentally sound practice in the 50's and actually the way he shoots would still fundamentally work today, but over time the 3 basic ways of shooting in the 40's and 50's were simplified to an all encompasing one, the jump shot. And one of the types of shots is now the one primarily used at the free throw line. Perimeter shooting used to be like how layups are (still) taught. To be used with variety under different scenarios.

A perimeter player in the late 40's/early 50's like Cousy would be taught:

Two hand set shot: Deep uncontested

One hand push shot: Free throws and rolling off screens / uncontested look (this is what Cousy shoots that you guys think is "awkward")... it's the same as a free throw just taken from the field. Unlike the two hand set this can be taken on the run which is why it is used off screens.

Jump shot: When contested or in traffic... Cousy actually shoots 2 or 3 jump shots in just these scenarios in the footage. They look as one would expect, like a jump shot.

Cousy didn't take contested shots, he was a point guard, so he shot one hand push shots which were believed to be the more accurate shot when uncontested in that day. Bill Sharman his teammate did the same thing and he's one of the greatest shooters ever as can be seen by his FT%'s

[CavaliersFTW]

Cousy is a shorter Nash with worse navigation efficiency, and Rubio level shooting. Guy would have been a literal clown today.. Doing dribbling exhibitions for little kids with a plastic red nose attached to his face.
They're both 6-1 without shoes... how's he shorter? :oldlol:

[Marchesk]

They're both 6-1 without shoes... how's he shorter? :oldlol:

It was a weak era for measuring height :confusedshrug:

[CavaliersFTW]

His off-ball passing was elite. You have to adjust FG% by era. 50s players get an automatic 6% boost. Not everything deflates. Some things inflate.

Cousy adjusted FG% > AI FG%
And Westbrook's for that matter :applause:

[Eric Cartman]

Cousy is a shorter Nash with worse navigation efficiency, and Rubio level shooting. Guy would have been a literal clown today.. Doing dribbling exhibitions for little kids with a plastic red nose attached to his face.

:roll:

[tpols]

They're both 6-1 without shoes... how's he shorter? :oldlol:
All the sources I've seen have Nash at 6'3 and cousy at 6'1.. lighter as well.

Even if you consult your chart of real heights and weights.. cousy was the son of a cab driver. Steve Nash came from a family of professional footballers. He had quickness and coordination ingrained in his blood which reflected in his all time great shooting passing and dribbling. Cousy could do some old school dribbles and passes but his shooting was shit and he wasn't as effective a player at all.

[Droid101]

Cousy used skill to juke two defenders in that clip.

Wade jumped really high to dunk.

Cousy by a mile.

[Marchesk]

Cousy could do some old school dribbles and passes but his shooting was shit and he wasn't as effective a player at all.

Other than six titles. :coleman:

[tpols]

Other than six titles. :coleman:
0-6 first six years...

Bill Russel joins..

Wins the title his first year and leads them to dynasty.

:yaohappy:

[CavaliersFTW]

All the sources I've seen have Nash at 6'3 and cousy at 6'1.. lighter as well.

Even if you consult your chart of real heights and weights.. cousy was the son of a cab driver. Steve Nash came from a family of professional footballers. He had quickness and coordination ingrained in his blood which reflected in his all time great shooting passing and dribbling. Cousy could do some old school dribbles and passes but his shooting was shit and he wasn't as effective a player at all.
He's only 6-1

http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Steve-Nash-3719/

And at 175 Cousy was 12lbs lighter ... without lifting weights

You don't think Cousy could add 12lbs in the gym doing the workouts Nash has been doing his entire career?

[tpols]

He's only 6-1

http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Steve-Nash-3719/

And at 175 Cousy was 12lbs lighter ... without lifting weights

You don't think Cousy could add 12lbs in the gym doing the workouts Nash has been doing his entire career?
Maybe but he still couldn't shoot like Nash. Not even close. And Nash is among the best dribbles and passers ever as well.

Maybe if cousy came up in later generations he could've developed better shooting but that's what the evolution of the game does. It creates better players. They learn and build off previous generations and become flat out better. Also doesn't help cousy that Nash has the genetics to develop those skills..much like a steph curry.

Taking cousy over wade would be like taking a top race car from 1960 over a top race car from today.. it's just insane.

[Marchesk]

Taking cousy over wade would be like taking a top race car from 1960 over a top race car from today.. it's just insane.

Is this a fantasy draft or who had the better career?

[CavaliersFTW]

Taking cousy over wade would be like taking a top race car from 1960 over a top race car from today.. it's just insane.
The blueprints for humans is the same today as it was 50 years ago.

The blueprints for race cars are not.

[tpols]

The blueprints for humans is the same today as it was 50 years ago.

The blueprints for race cars are not.
I agree for a lot of players.. ie Wilt vs a center from today since Wilt was a very elite athlete or Oscar vs some sfs.. but if we could transpose cousys high sock wearing ass to a combine today to run tests against prime wade?:lol he'd fking smoke him on every front.

[CavaliersFTW]

I agree for a lot of players.. ie Wilt vs a center from today since Wilt was a very elite athlete or Oscar vs some sfs.. but if we could transpose cousys high sock wearing ass to a combine today to run tests against prime wade?:lol he'd fking smoke him on every front.
Make them lead a few 5 on 5 fast breaks however and see which guy performs better.

[tpols]

Make them lead a few 5 on 5 fast breaks however and see which guy performs better.
Well wades a sg.. cousy a pure pg. Wade could kill cousy in a scoring battle, while still being one of the best passing shooting guards ever. cousy is one of the best passers for his position but is he one of the best scorers?

[buddha]

peak Dwyane Wade is a top 10 player of all-time.

it's a shame LeBron ruined his legacy. Wade should have 4 rings and 2 finals MVP's.

[Milbuck]

I agree for a lot of players.. ie Wilt vs a center from today since Wilt was a very elite athlete or Oscar vs some sfs.. but if we could transpose cousys high sock wearing ass to a combine today to run tests against prime wade?:lol he'd fking smoke him on every front.
This is really my view on it. It's not a black and white argument, it varies by player.

Wilt was a freak no matter how you look at it, his stats wouldn't translate exactly but he'd be extremely dominant in any era. The footage is out there, we know Wilt was a generational talent.

But I honestly see no way Cousy wouldn't be overwhelmed going against guys today like Westbrook, Curry, etc.

Westbrook especially, you see the way he makes some of the best PGs in the game look utterly defeated and hopeless sometimes..and then watch some Cousy footage..I just don't know how Cousy wouldn't get destroyed..

I just re-watched highlights of Westbrook's 40-10-5-5 game against SA in the playoffs where he shredded their defense completely and was an absolute terror on defense. Flash was even better...

[CavaliersFTW]

Well wades a sg.. cousy a pure pg. Wade could kill cousy in a scoring battle, while still being one of the best passing shooting guards ever. cousy is one of the best passers for his position but is he one of the best scorers?
Cousy lead the league in assists 8 times in a row, he's not one of the best scoring point guards ever but he as a passer/floor general is to point guards what Magic is to point guards (in that facet). That's very special.

I'm not arguing Bob Cousy is a better player than Dwyane Wade. I'm only in here refuting the idiocy that Cousy is some unathletic bust by today's standards. He's all-time great at what he did, run the break. The list of guys who ran the break like him begins with him and ends with Magic the way I see it, I don't know anyone who looks so remarkable in the open court as Cousy especially with such a small sample size of his career existing on film. I think it's nonsense for people to suggest high schoolers or w/e do what he does, he's got some of the most spectacular looking passes ever and his handle - for a palms down dribble, is insane. He keeps the ball on a string with palms down rules.

[Marchesk]

This is really my view on it. It's not a black and white argument, it varies by player.

Wilt was a freak no matter how you look at it, his stats wouldn't translate exactly but he'd be extremely dominant in any era. The footage is out there, we know Wilt was a generational talent.

But I honestly see no way Cousy wouldn't be overwhelmed going against guys today like Westbrook, Curry, etc.

Westbrook especially, you see the way he makes some of the best PGs in the game look utterly defeated and hopeless sometimes..and then watch some Cousy footage..I just don't know how Cousy wouldn't get destroyed..

I just re-watched highlights of Westbrook's 40-10-5-5 game against SA in the playoffs where he shredded their defense completely and was an absolute terror on defense. Flash was even better...


So Westbrook's crazy athleticism and aggressiveness embarrass a lot of good guards. They don't get kicked out of the league. The question is overall how Cousy would do running an offense, not whether he could lock down someone like Westbrook. Nobody is saying Cousy was Gary Payton.

(Can you imagine prime Jordan and Westbrook going at it? Say Durant is out and Westbrook wants to go at Jordan)

The real question is who had the better career, up to this point, not who you would take to run your offense in 2015.

[tpols]

Cousy lead the league in assists 8 times in a row, he's not one of the best scoring point guards ever but he as a passer/floor general is to point guards what Magic is to point guards (in that facet). That's very special.

I'm not arguing Bob Cousy is a better player than Dwyane Wade. I'm only in here refuting the idiocy that Cousy is some unathletic bust by today's standards. He's all-time great at what he did, run the break. The list of guys who ran the break like him begins with him and ends with Magic the way I see it, I don't know anyone who looks so remarkable in the open court as Cousy especially with such a small sample size of his career existing on film. I think it's nonsense for people to suggest high schoolers or w/e do what he does, he's got some of the most spectacular looking passes ever and his handle - for a palms down dribble, is insane. He keeps the ball on a string with palms down rules.

true.. I dont know the numbers but I assume today is much more half court based than back in cousys time. So it's very difficult to make a comparison. He could've ended anywhere on a wide spectrum . depending on how he developed.

[aj1987]

Cousy is top 20. Wade is top 25-30 in my book.

Face it, Wade's lack of durability hurts him in all-time rankings. If you rank players simply by peak level Wade would be much higher on people's lists but when you missed 15, 20, 30 games 7 times in 12 seasons that diminishes the impact you had.

I am not sure what Pippen has to do with Wade vs. Cousy. :oldlol:
Making shit up as usual. Made missed 6 times (including this season) and one was a lockout season. Wade '13 season >> Cousy's MVP season. That's how good Wade is, compared to Cousy. Heck, current Wade would DESTROY peak Cousy and Wade's 33 years old with his body falling apart.

I only brought up Pippen because of your insecurity. You try to diminish Wade in any all threads, just to try to prop up Pippen.

[Horde of Temujin]

Wade is the better player by far. Cousy is the better human being.

[CavaliersFTW]

Wade is the better player by far. Cousy is the better human being.
To curtail your comment but slightly off topic

Are you referring to how he took care of his wife who had alzheimers... Notebook level commitment by Cousy. Shit was tough to read. But def a good man :applause:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2441171/NBA-legend-Bob-Cousy-let-dementia-suffering-wife-believe-healthy.html

[Milbuck]

So Westbrook's crazy athleticism and aggressiveness embarrass a lot of good guards. They don't get kicked out of the league. The question is overall how Cousy would do running an offense, not whether he could lock down someone like Westbrook. Nobody is saying Cousy was Gary Payton.

(Can you imagine prime Jordan and Westbrook going at it? Say Durant is out and Westbrook wants to go at Jordan)

The real question is who had the better career, up to this point, not who you would take to run your offense in 2015.
I was thinking about defense. Forget the offense. Like if Westbrook made it his one goal to lock down Cousy, in an intense playoff series. I'm not saying Cousy was a scrub or anything, the dude was clearly a gifted player mentally and was gifted in certain skills..but I just think he would be overwhelmed on both ends of the floor today given the footage I've seen, which admittedly is probably not as much as you and Cavs and so on. Tony Parker is routinely considered one of the best PGs in the game (up until this season) and he was totally destroyed in the last WCF. That's realistically what I think would happen to Cousy if he went at Russ at full force, except even worse. It doesn't mean I think Cousy is trash, I just don't think his individual success would translate completely at all. We're kidding ourselves if we're gonna say his skills would translate exactly as they were then, to today with absolute monster at the position like Westbrook constantly harassing him on both ends of the floor.

And that to me matters in an all time discussion. Of course no one can take away Cousy's achievements, his rings, all that...but to some extent how good a player is in a vacuum matters.

Which is why I try to stay away from Wilt-bashing threads as much as I can outside of the occasional joke...because I think his dominance would translate..but I do not under any circumstances think Cousy would end up anywhere close to the same legacy if he's playing today exactly as he was back then.

[plowking]

So Cousy's best season was 56-57 where he won the MVP and put up 21/8.

Is that better than Wade's 05-06 season where he put up 27/6/7?
How about 08-09 where he put up 30/5/8?
How about 09-10 where he put up 27/5/7?
Or 10-11 where he put up 26/6/5?

Does Cousy have a finals series as good as Wade in 06?

Who plays better defense?

Oh right, the answer is Wade to all of them.

So because one guy has more ALL-NBA selections due to playing in an era with less competition, I'm supposed to think he is better at basketball?

[L.Kizzle]

So Cousy's best season was 56-57 where he won the MVP and put up 21/8.

Is that better than Wade's 05-06 season where he put up 27/6/7?
How about 08-09 where he put up 30/5/8?
How about 09-10 where he put up 27/5/7?
Or 10-11 where he put up 26/6/5?
I'd say the MVP Award pretty much says he had a better season.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

I'd say the MVP Award pretty much says he had a better season.
So Derrick Rose had a better season in 2011 than Wade in 2006?

[plowking]

I'd say the MVP Award pretty much says he had a better season.

That's like saying a dude in the 100m race in 1960 running 10.9 and winning ran a faster race than the dude in 2000 running 10.3 and coming 6th.

You keep avoiding to answer the question directly because you know what the actual answer is.

[L.Kizzle]

So Derrick Rose had a better season in 2011 than Wade in 2006?
Yes.

[CavaliersFTW]

That's like saying a dude in the 100m race in 1960 running 10.9 and winning ran a faster race than the dude in 2000 running 10.3 and coming 6th.

You keep avoiding to answer the question directly because you know what the actual answer is.
A dude in 1960 running a 10.9 running on cinders might very well be faster than a dude running 10.3 on a synthetic track in 2000...

[plowking]

So Derrick Rose had a better season in 2011 than Wade in 2006?

Nash had a better season than Kobe in 06 as well.

Remember Shaq in 94? Cousy's season is better than that.
Remember Shaq in 01 where he put up 29/13/4? Yep, Cousy and Nash both easily better.

[L.Kizzle]

That's like saying a dude in the 100m race in 1960 running 10.9 and winning ran a faster race than the dude in 2000 running 10.3 and coming 6th.

You keep avoiding to answer the question directly because you know what the actual answer is.
:biggums:

[plowking]

Yes.

And Cousy is a better player than Shaq too, right?

More ALL NBA first teams, same amount of MVP's and more championships. Pretty clear.

[plowking]

:biggums:

More deflecting.

[L.Kizzle]

Nash had a better season than Kobe in 06 as well.

Remember Shaq in 94? Cousy's season is better than that.
Remember Shaq in 01 where he put up 29/13/4? Yep, Cousy and Nash both easily better.
Stop discrediting the past.

Cousy did what he did in his era and Wade did what he did in his era.

He's the best player that played in the entire decade of the 50s.

[plowking]

Stop discrediting the past.

Cousy did what he did in his era and Wade did what he did in his era.

He's the best player that played in the entire decade of the 50s.

Deflecting.

[L.Kizzle]

And Cousy is a better player than Shaq too, right?

More ALL NBA first teams, same amount of MVP's and more championships. Pretty clear.
No, he's just better than Wade.

[plowking]

No, he's just better than Wade.

Going by your logic he is better than both.

Just answer as to which season was better. Shaq 00-01 or Cousy in his MVP season?

[T_L_P]

Wade, obviously.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Stop discrediting the past.

Cousy did what he did in his era and Wade did what he did in his era.

He's the best player that played in the entire decade of the 50s.
Way to completely ignore his point. And Mikan is the best player from the 50s by a good margin....and even he shouldn't be ranked over Wade..

[L.Kizzle]

Deflecting.
You're basically discrediting the players from the past. You probably think Patrick Beverly is better than Cousy also. More competition right?

[RoundMoundOfReb]

You're basically discrediting the players from the past. You probably think Patrick Beverly is better than Cousy also. More competition right?
No. that isn't what he was saying in that post at all. His point is that winning an MVP doesn't mean you had a better season then somebody who had an all-nba caliber season and then proceeded to have one of the most dominant finals performances in NBA history.

[L.Kizzle]

Way to completely ignore his point. And Mikan is the best player from the 50s by a good margin....and even he shouldn't be ranked over Wade..
I said for the entire decade. Mikan played half the decade like Bob Pettit and Russell did.

So where is Mikan ranked, along side Kevin Willis and Brad Miller I guess right?

[RoundMoundOfReb]

I said for the entire decade. Mikan played half the decade like Bob Pettit and Russell did.

So where is Mikan ranked, along side Kevin Willis and Brad Miller I guess right?
No. just lower than Wade. Wade is like top 25.

[T_L_P]

So where is Mikan ranked, along side Kevin Willis and Brad Miller I guess right?

Definitely pushing it there, san.

[L.Kizzle]

No. just lower than Wade. Wade is like top 25.
So what's your reasoning for Wade over Mikan now?

[RoundMoundOfReb]

So what's your reasoning for Wade over Mikan now?
Wade is better. Wade played in a league where the rules were actually properly established (shot clock).

Out of curiosity if you have Cousy over Wade then surely you have Mikan in your top 10 or top 5? I mean, after all Mikan has 5 rings and likely would've won 5/6 mvps had they given the award. Surely you have him over the likes of LeBron/Kobe whose accolades don't stack up.

[CavaliersFTW]

So what's your reasoning for Wade over Mikan now?
Some completely arbitrary penalization for era I'm sure... :lol

*EDIT* ^- yep I was right :roll:

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Some completely arbitrary penalization for era I'm sure... :lol

*EDIT* ^- yep I was right :roll:
Being better at basketball is an arbitrary penalization?

And if you don't penalize for the shot clock (or lack of racial integration, or lack of athleticism), then surely you also have Mikan rated extremely highly. Since if we're just going off dominance over era Mikan is easily top 5.

[aj1987]

Stop discrediting the past.

Cousy did what he did in his era and Wade did what he did in his era.

He's the best player that played in the entire decade of the 50s.
So, Cousy is better than Shaq, Hakeem, D-Rob, KG, Dirk, LeBron, Bird, Magic, etc.? Has to be, considering the back that they were never the best players for and entire decade.


Being better at basketball is an arbitrary penalization?
Dude, you're asking a guy whose entire life revolves around watching grainy footage more the '60's and thinking that players back then >> players from today.

[CavaliersFTW]

Being better at basketball is an arbitrary penalization?
Mikan would probably beat Dwyane Wade in a game of one on one. He was 280lbs without even lifting weights and turned his shoulders in aggressively a-la Shaq and shot/finished his layups/hooks with either hand and his reach on film looks like Shaq and Wilt, barely has to be off the ground to clear the rim makes the rim look short. What's Wade gonna do to stop him? Cry to a ref for a foul?

Can't teach natural height/mass/strength and he was coordinated for such a big man.

Skills might look archaic with the leagues different rules today but in areas where the game still overlaps on fundamentals the limited film I've seen of Mikan he looks like a guy you really wouldn't want to see in the post. I don't think he's as terrible as people here want to think.

High post entry pass fundamental one power dibble to the middle to hook a-la Shaq (btw that's 7-0 Ray Felix guarding him)
http://youtu.be/xrSvm7vx8uk?t=41s

Blocks Ray Felix's attempt, runs the floor than fakes and does a dribble drive to a running hook... this is not typical agility or a move for a 280lb white dude who's playing his last NBA season
http://youtu.be/xrSvm7vx8uk?t=1m9s

The classic quick spin to the hole and Mikan, unlike say Wilt, was much more keen to use his physicality and bruise up his opponents with a little shoulder or elbow. Felix all over him he still gets right where he wanted too and hits his free throws.
http://youtu.be/xrSvm7vx8uk?t=1m47s

Here's that same turn in this time from the opposite block. Right to the rack.
http://youtu.be/xrSvm7vx8uk?t=2m22s

Mikan was the first diesel.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Mikan would probably beat Dwyane Wade in a game of one on one. He was 280lbs without even lifting weights and turned his shoulders in aggressively a-la Shaq and shot/finished his layups/hooks with either hand and his reach on film looks like Shaq and Wilt, barely has to be off the ground to clear the rim makes the rim look short. What's Wade gonna do to stop him? Cry to a ref for a foul?

Can't teach natural height/mass/strength and he was coordinated for such a big man.

Skills might look archaic with the leagues different rules today but in areas where the game still overlaps on fundamentals the limited film I've seen of Mikan he looks like a guy you really wouldn't want to see in the post. I don't think he's as terrible as people here want to think.

1st off being better 1-on-1 doesn't make you better. Jamal Crawford might beat Wade 1-on-1....it doesn't make him a better player...

secondly, i never said Mikan would be terrible...i just said that he isn't better than Dwyane Wade....who at his best was as good or better than any 2-guard in NBA history minus Michael Jordan..

[T_L_P]

Either Mikan's your GOAT (or top 5 GOAT or top 10 GOAT) because of domination relative to era...or he's nowhere close to a guy like Wade.


This is where you old-heads get silly. Wilt and Russell would be effective players in any era. Maybe Joe Camel Cousy would be too.

But the idea that he's better than Wade is just as laughable as Mikan being better than him.

The guy won multiple titles while being the 2nd or 3rd least efficient player on his team (FG%). Now he's better than a guy who had arguably the greatest Finals performance in league history?

[L.Kizzle]

Wade is better. Wade played in a league where the rules were actually properly established (shot clock).

Out of curiosity if you have Cousy over Wade then surely you have Mikan in your top 10 or top 5? I mean, after all Mikan has 5 rings and likely would've won 5/6 mvps had they given the award. Surely you have him over the likes of LeBron/Kobe whose accolades don't stack up.
Mikan gets penalized slightly for no shot clock-no blacks. But not as much as I think you penalize him. I still have him around top 25-30 along with Cousy.

Pretty sure you have Mikan around Rik Smits and Jamal Magloire.

[CavaliersFTW]

1st off being better 1-on-1 doesn't make you better. Jamal Crawford might beat Wade 1-on-1....it doesn't make him a better player...

secondly, i never said Mikan would be terrible...i just said that he isn't better than Dwyane Wade....who at his best was as good or better than any 2-guard in NBA history minus Michael Jordan..
Honestly these things are not so easy to answer. We don't know how Mikan saw the floor, we don't know how he impacted the game... there's like 5 minutes of relevant Mikan footage in action on planet earth, maybe 10 minutes stored in a vault somewhere tops. Most of it is just a few random shit from what are literally his final NBA seasons. Which was a version/brand of basketball that little to no fans alive today even fully understand.

Would Mikan have all the skills of a Dwyane Wade? Of course not, backcourt players are inherently more skilled. But did Mikan impact the game more than Wade? I don't know... he's talked about as being the Shaq of his era, was Shaq better than Wade? I think he certainly was. So why wouldn't Mikan be better than Wade? Better at his own game of his own time at least than Wade is at his in this time.

Because remember, they're playing two different versions of the game. Would Wade be any better in Mikan's era if suddenly "transplanted" than Mikan would be in this? I would say both would require adjustment. These comparisons are almost impossible as we have little to nothing to fairly evaluate George Mikan. I know Mikan was talented though. To be as big as he was, and aggressive, and intelligent to play the game and dominate the way he did you have to have a great deal of talent. Same with Wade of course. But there's not enough info on Mikan for this to be a fair discussion.

[Psileas]

Either Mikan's your GOAT (or top 5 GOAT or top 10 GOAT) because of domination relative to era...or he's nowhere close to a guy like Wade.
This is where you old-heads get silly. Wilt and Russell would be effective players in any era. Maybe Joe Camel Cousy would be too.

But the idea that he's better than Wade is just as laughable as Mikan being better than him.

Why does it have to be either white or black? Why do we have to either ignore era differences and compare them straight up or imagine them time traveling? How about the possibility that you apply context more reasonably and place him somewhere between?



The guy won multiple titles while being the 2nd or 3rd least efficient player on his team (FG%). Now he's better than a guy who had arguably the greatest Finals performance in league history?

Nowhere did anyone claim that Cousy was a better or more efficient scorer than Wade. Or that he was a better Finals' performer. However, going by putting that much stock on Finals, you'll have to rank certain players like Robinson or Ewing pretty low as well, not to mention guys who never made the Finals. Plus, as a reminder, Wade hadn't always been overwhelming in the Finals, either.
But at least it's still a better type of argument than the "weak era!" crap, which offers no room for logical comparison/discussion whatsoever.

[Lebron23]

Ofcourse It's Wade.

[swagga]

Why does it have to be either white or black? Why do we have to either ignore era differences and compare them straight up or imagine them time traveling? How about the possibility that you apply context more reasonably and place him somewhere between?




Nowhere did anyone claim that Cousy was a better or more efficient scorer than Wade. Or that he was a better Finals' performer. However, going by putting that much stock on Finals, you'll have to rank certain players like Robinson or Ewing pretty low as well, not to mention guys who never made the Finals. Plus, as a reminder, Wade hadn't always been overwhelming in the Finals, either.
But at least it's still a better type of argument than the "weak era!" crap, which offers no room for logical comparison/discussion whatsoever.

Let's ignore the evolution of the game for this post.

By playing against fewer players, in a league with fewer teams, coming from a much smaller player pool (race restriction, no international exposure, 1/3 of today's population, less financial incentive) we get the same competition and an era with comparable strength with 80s/90s/00s/10s, therefore awards and statistics are translatable.

such reasoning :applause: you must be a professor at ivy league tbh

[Psileas]

Let's ignore the evolution of the game for this post.

By playing against fewer players, in a league with fewer teams, coming from a much smaller player pool (race restriction, no international exposure, 1/3 of today's population, less financial incentive) we get the same competition and an era with comparable strength with 80s/90s/00s/10s, therefore awards and statistics are translatable.

such reasoning :applause: you must be a professor at ivy league tbh

:roll: :facepalm
Dude, did you even read my post? Do you even know what "Why do we have to either ignore era differences and compare them straight up" even means? Do you know what "apply context more reasonably" means? "Somewhere between"?
Why the need to be an "ivy league professor" when dealing with this crap? Pretty much everyone looks like a professor next to you.

[Papaya Petee]

If ranking Bob Cousy, or even Walt Frazier or Rick Barry over Wade make me dumb, than I guess I'm dumb.
Yes matter of fact, you're very dumb.

[jongib369]

Wade is better in a lot of ways...Especially because of relaxed dribbling rules and his athleticism. Loved watching him in his prime. But depending on the team Cousys skill set could be more valuable

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHPQyWSQtFA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y52sQoSAr6g

Excluding when he dribbles in ways that wasn't allowed in Cousys era, I dont see anything Cousy couldn't pull off....And if I had to replace Nash on the suns with either of the two, I'd actually have a real hard time making a decision. Wades defense, size, and athleticism is huge....But if I wanted my team to essentially stay the same, or possibly even improve I'd risk taking Cousy.

But if I want to change and grow it differently I take wade

http://youtu.be/o-xa6546ixc

Was hoping to see an Oscar or Russell highlight before some of whats come out lately...But since Pettit and Cousy are so often targeted I see it's importence.

http://larrybrownsports.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/steve-nash-pink-sweater-bag-530x545.jpg

http://sports.mearsonlineauctions.com/ItemImages/000036/36554a_lg.jpeg

[Horde of Temujin]

To curtail your comment but slightly off topic

Are you referring to how he took care of his wife who had alzheimers... Notebook level commitment by Cousy. Shit was tough to read. But def a good man :applause:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2441171/NBA-legend-Bob-Cousy-let-dementia-suffering-wife-believe-healthy.html

Wow, that is awesome. I didn't know that.

I was mostly speaking about Wade's deficiencies rather than merits of Cousy

[plowking]

Why does it have to be either white or black? Why do we have to either ignore era differences and compare them straight up or imagine them time traveling? How about the possibility that you apply context more reasonably and place him somewhere between?

We're the ones applying context. All you old heads are the ones being completely one sided.
"Cousy was better and more dominant in his era".
Yeah, and the Mini Cooper is the most successful racing car of all time, I'm still not taking it over a current Ferrari with more competition and abundance of talent in both understanding and operating a vehicle.
Is it a better racing car than a Toyota comparatively? Sure, we could argue that.

You also have guys like Kizzle defiantly claiming one season is definitely better due to a simple MVP award, yet back tracks when you start comparing other greats non MVP seasons. There is no logic or semblance of objectivity coming from the old head side of the argument.


Nowhere did anyone claim that Cousy was a better or more efficient scorer than Wade. Or that he was a better Finals' performer. However, going by putting that much stock on Finals, you'll have to rank certain players like Robinson or Ewing pretty low as well, not to mention guys who never made the Finals. Plus, as a reminder, Wade hadn't always been overwhelming in the Finals, either.
But at least it's still a better type of argument than the "weak era!" crap, which offers no room for logical comparison/discussion whatsoever.

The problem is when idiotic poster like CavsFTW insinuate that former players from the 50's and 60's transplanted as is would be current players 1 on 1... :facepalm
I'm not shitting on anyone that has helped developed such a popular sport, but naturally, that isn't close to true. Look at the 50's and 60's and the way they dribbled, how small the league was, and how lacking in real talent it was. Obviously some exceptional athletes like your Wilt's and what not could be transported as is, and have their skills refined for today's game and you'd be fine, but a lot of players wouldn't have a job in the NBA regardless of all the practice they put in.

[DatAsh]

Cousy and Maravich are near the top of my list for most overrated players ever. They're some of the most influential players that have ever played, but in terms of impact on the court - ie contribution to winning games - I'd take Nash over both of them combined. Nash is easily one of the most underrated players ever.

[Dresta]

So Derrick Rose had a better season in 2011 than Wade in 2006?


Yes.
Dude, you just went full ****ing retard. You seriously need to drop this inane imbecility, as someone will have you sectioned for severe mental delusions.

[Eric Cartman]

Cousy and Maravich are near the top of my list for most overrated players ever. They're some of the most influential players that have ever played, but in terms of impact on the court - ie contribution to winning games - I'd take Nash over both of them combined. Nash is easily one of the most underrated players ever.

:applause:

[Psileas]

We're the ones applying context. All you old heads are the ones being completely one sided.
"Cousy was better and more dominant in his era".
Yeah, and the Mini Cooper is the most successful racing car of all time, I'm still not taking it over a current Ferrari with more competition and abundance of talent in both understanding and operating a vehicle.
Is it a better racing car than a Toyota comparatively? Sure, we could argue that.

You also have guys like Kizzle defiantly claiming one season is definitely better due to a simple MVP award, yet back tracks when you start comparing other greats non MVP seasons. There is no logic or semblance of objectivity coming from the old head side of the argument.

I don't know who "we" is supposed to mean in the beginning of your quote. Definitely not the ones that I quoted, whose only context includes time traveling and a distorted perception of both level of competition and personal talent. That's not something that the average 10 year old couldn't think about. Comparing players to cars isn't quite accurate, either. The best you might do is compare modern basketball knowledge to cars, but not players themselves, since you have no clue what each past player's personal ceiling was.


The problem is when idiotic poster like CavsFTW insinuate that former players from the 50's and 60's transplanted as is would be current players 1 on 1...
I'm not shitting on anyone that has helped developed such a popular sport, but naturally, that isn't close to true. Look at the 50's and 60's and the way they dribbled, how small the league was, and how lacking in real talent it was. Obviously some exceptional athletes like your Wilt's and what not could be transported as is, and have their skills refined for today's game and you'd be fine, but a lot of players wouldn't have a job in the NBA regardless of all the practice they put in.

Same problem, again. You have no clue about how "lacking in real talent" the league was, because you confuse talent with basketball knowledge. The fact that players didn't do what they do today isn't an indicator that they were unable to do what it's done today, it's an indicator that it still wasn't widely used or even known. Since you like technology analogies, it's not better than calling 1900's humans technologically incompetent due to not seeing anyone use an iPhone or a 21st century PC.

[kshutts1]

White guy who played college ball in the 60's...and separated by about 5-10 years from Cousy. And who in fact, a who studied Cousy's game.

Cousy was a pioneer. Furthermore, he was the exact height and weight as Nash. Put Cousy in the 00's and let him adapt to the game in a few months, and he would definitely have been compared to Nash.
Is Nash a better player, in a vacuum, right now than Cousy ever was?

The obvious answer is yes. But we shouldn't consider a comparison with so many differences, and ignore the differences.

That said... Lazeruss is on the right path above (when talking about/comparing older players, he normally is)... I would just change "a few months" to "a few years".

Cousy had A LOT of aspects of his game that would get destroyed today. Takes time to change them all. But he could, and he would.

If Nash grew up in Cousy's time? He wouldn't even be in the L because he was from Canada. He'd play hockey.
If Cousy grew up during Nash's time, it is my belief that Cousy would be the better player.

I come to that conclusion by the only fair way I know how... comparing him against the rest of the competition of the day. Cousy was head-and-shoulders above every other guard that played back then. I see no reason to think he wouldn't be one of the top guards in the league today.

[Pointguard]

Cousy and Maravich are near the top of my list for most overrated players ever. They're some of the most influential players that have ever played, but in terms of impact on the court - ie contribution to winning games - I'd take Nash over both of them combined. Nash is easily one of the most underrated players ever.
This.

I got heat here for saying that Maravich wouldn't transport well into today's game, primarily because he wasn't that good in his day's game, which should be the first criteria for transport.

Yeah, Nash is one of the most under-rated for me as well.

And I can make a case that KC Jones and Russell ran the Celtic offense much more efficiently than Cousy did. But I wouldn't say Cousy is on my most overrated list.

[LAZERUSS]

This.

I got heat here for saying that Maravich wouldn't transport well into today's game, primarily because he wasn't that good in his day's game, which should be the first criteria for transport.

Yeah, Nash is one of the most under-rated for me as well.

And I can make a case that KC Jones and Russell ran the Celtic offense much more efficiently than Cousy did. But I wouldn't say Cousy is on my most overrated list.

Actually, Maravich's game would easily transport into today's game. The video footage proves that. In a guard-dominated era, and with a 3pt line, he would have thrived. He was clearly better than 90% of the guards that play today, and in fact, was probably physically superior to 95% of them.

If Ricky Rubio can play in today's NBA, then Pistol Pete would dominate it.

[L.Kizzle]

Cousy and Maravich are near the top of my list for most overrated players ever. They're some of the most influential players that have ever played, but in terms of impact on the court - ie contribution to winning games - I'd take Nash over both of them combined. Nash is easily one of the most underrated players ever.
Cousy had a winning record every season before Russell came along and went to the Conference Finals four times in six seasons.
Lost to the Knicks twice who went on to lose in the next series in the Finals in 51 and 53 to Davies and Mikan led teams. 54 and 55 lost to Schayes led team in Conference Finals who lost in 54 but won in 55.


Pete never made it past the first round. Not sure how Cousy didn't have an impact pre-Russell.
Eight of nine seasons for Maravich, his teams were below .500. No comparison.

:biggums:

[LAZERUSS]

Cousy had a winning record every season before Russell came along and went to the Conference Finals four times in six seasons.
Lost to the Knicks twice who went on to lose in the next series in the Finals in 51 and 53 to Davies and Mikan led teams. 54 and 55 lost to Schayes led team in Conference Finals who lost in 54 but won in 55.


Pete never made it past the first round. Not sure how Cousy didn't have an impact pre-Russell.
Eight of nine seasons for Maravich, his teams were below .500. No comparison.

:biggums:

Pistol never played on any quality teams. His career suffered pretty much the same way as Adrian Dantley's.

[L.Kizzle]

Pistol never played on any quality teams. His career suffered pretty much the same way as Adrian Dantley's.
Lou Hudson made more All-Star games than Pete, and Walt Bellamy while past his prime was still a serviceable big man.

[LAZERUSS]

Lou Hudson made more All-Star games than Pete, and Walt Bellamy while past his prime was still a serviceable big man.

Both were past their primes...and the reality was, in those years the NBA was stacked with power-house teams. Fans tend to forget that it is not just about teammates, but opposition, as well.

[L.Kizzle]

Both were past their primes...and the reality was, in those years the NBA was stacked with power-house teams. Fans tend to forget that it is not just about teammates, but opposition, as well.
Hudson was in his prime. Walt was past his.

Now his Jazz teams suck, I'll give you that. But those Hawks teams should have been a little better than they were.

[LAZERUSS]

Hudson was in his prime. Walt was past his.

Now his Jazz teams suck, I'll give you that. But those Hawks teams should have been a little better than they were.

Maybe, maybe not. But they certainly weren't close to the most talented teams in the league from '71 thru '74 (Pete's Hawk seasons.)

[DatAsh]

Cousy had a winning record every season before Russell came along and went to the Conference Finals four times in six seasons.
Lost to the Knicks twice who went on to lose in the next series in the Finals in 51 and 53 to Davies and Mikan led teams. 54 and 55 lost to Schayes led team in Conference Finals who lost in 54 but won in 55.


Pete never made it past the first round. Not sure how Cousy didn't have an impact pre-Russell.
Eight of nine seasons for Maravich, his teams were below .500. No comparison.

:biggums:
Cousy didn't have a winning record prior to Russell, the Celtics did. Celtics were good pre Russell, but it had more to do with Macauley than it did Cousy. Of course Cousy gets all the credit then and now because he was the flashier player. It's similar to West/Wilt, Iverson/Mutombo, though for different reasons. West/Iverson/Cousy get far too much credit for their team success, and Wilt/Mutombo/Macauley get far too little. Also, I never said he had no impact, just that he doesn't have the impact of a top 15-30 player, which is where I usually see him ranked. Look at the offenses Nash led vs the offenses Cousy led(particularly post Ed), night and day difference. Did Nash really have that much more help?

[L.Kizzle]

Cousy didn't have a winning record prior to Russell, the Celtics did. Celtics were good pre Russell, but it had more to do with Macauley than it did Cousy. Of course Cousy gets all the credit then and now because he was the flashier player. It's similar to West/Wilt, Iverson/Mutombo, though for different reasons. West/Iverson/Cousy get far too much credit for their team success, and Wilt/Mutombo/Macauley get far too little. Also, I never said he had no impact, just that he doesn't have the impact of a top 15-30 player, which is where I usually see him ranked. Look at the offenses Nash led vs the offenses Cousy led(particularly post Ed), night and day difference. Did Nash really have that much more help?
Macauley ... I'm not trying to underrate Ed Macauley but Cousy was the team. There's a reason he was traded for Russell and not Cousy. He had terrible rebounding numbers for a center/PF. PG Cousy was a few boards away from his every season. You had guy like Mikan, Mikkelsen, Schayes and Johnston getting 14 boards a game and ever lower tier bigs like Lovellette, Gallatin and Foust getting over ten-12 boards routinely. Hell, even Paul Arizin avg more boards than him.

Macauley BOST 51-56 POINTS/REBOUNDS/ASSIST in that order
51 - 20/9/4
52 - 19/8/4
53 - 20/9/4
54 - 19/8/4
55 - 18/9/4
56 - 18/5/3

vs

Cousy BOST 51-56
51 - 16/5/7
52 - 22/6/7
53 - 20/6/8 (assist league leader)
54 - 19/6/7 (assist league leader)
55 - 21/6/8 (assist league leader)
56 - 19/7/9 (assist league leader)

and Playoffs

Macauley BOST 51-56
51 - 22/9/4
52 - 23/11/4
53 - 17/10/4
54 - 5/4/4 (injured)
55 - 18/7/5
56 - 10/5/2

Cousy BOST 51-56
51 - 14/8/6
52 - 31/4/6
53 - 26/4/6 (playoff points leader)
54 - 21/5/6 (playoff points and assist leader)
55 - 22/6/9 (playoff points and assist leader)
56 - 26/8/9 (playoff assist leader)

[Pointguard]

Actually, Maravich's game would easily transport into today's game. The video footage proves that. In a guard-dominated era, and with a 3pt line, he would have thrived. He was clearly better than 90% of the guards that play today, and in fact, was probably physically superior to 95% of them.

If Ricky Rubio can play in today's NBA, then Pistol Pete would dominate it.
Pete would be a wing player in today's game, too slow for the 2 and physically exploited at the three. Hudson played more like a two then and Maravich a scoring point forward. But I don't think he could do that in today's game. Pete was the games only self absorbed point forward for good reason.

Pete would be a horrible transport. For whatever might be said about different era's, the lateral movement and close out on shooters is a lot better now than in the 70's. Pete's assist and TO numbers were near equal at least in the one prime year we have them (6.7 assist to 5 TOs). He was sloppy then and would be horrific now. He was self absorbed then and would be now. He got into foul trouble in the playoffs and the demands of the containing the game (stopping the run) would make him sloppier.

Rubio is a much better team player than Maravich ever was. Rubio was never sloppy with the ball. Rubio is a very good defender. Maravich would still be an explosive scorer but he wasn't an effective player then. Almost all of the good guards now influence their team heavily. Pete would still be a scorer but the other parts of the game would get him in trouble. He was a destructive offensive force He made simple plays harder than they were and there is no evidence that he could elevate a team. If a player isn't effective in his day, its insulting to say he would be in other era's. The first criteria has to be that he can affect the era he is in. Different if he was dominant scorer or could score at will. He could go off at times and had a crazy scoring year but on a very bad team.

You have to have a second level where you affect the league or opposing teams in a significant way.

[ArbitraryWater]

Agreed with everyone who said Nash underrated.

[LAZERUSS]

Pete would be a wing player in today's game, too slow for the 2 and physically exploited at the three. Hudson played more like a two then and Maravich a scoring point forward. But I don't think he could do that in today's game. Pete was the games only self absorbed point forward for good reason.

Pete would be a horrible transport. For whatever might be said about different era's, the lateral movement and close out on shooters is a lot better now than in the 70's. Pete's assist and TO numbers were near equal at least in the one prime year we have them (6.7 assist to 5 TOs). He was sloppy then and would be horrific now. He was self absorbed then and would be now. He got into foul trouble in the playoffs and the demands of the containing the game (stopping the run) would make him sloppier.

Rubio is a much better team player than Maravich ever was. Rubio was never sloppy with the ball. Rubio is a very good defender. Maravich would still be an explosive scorer but he wasn't an effective player then. Almost all of the good guards now influence their team heavily. Pete would still be a scorer but the other parts of the game would get him in trouble. He was a destructive offensive force He made simple plays harder than they were and there is no evidence that he could elevate a team. If a player isn't effective in his day, its insulting to say he would be in other era's. The first criteria has to be that he can affect the era he is in. Different if he was dominant scorer or could score at will. He could go off at times and had a crazy scoring year but on a very bad team.

You have to have a second level where you affect the league or opposing teams in a significant way.

I hate to argue with you, because I respect you and your opinion as much as anyone else here, but Pete was not slow. He had blinding speed, was a better ball-handler than Rubio, a FAR greater shooter and scorer than Rubio, not to mention he was taller and more athletic.

The footage is there...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qv0YS1wHoQ

Incidently, in that footage...NO palming or traveling, either. Can you imagine what he could have done with taking 3-4 steps while carrying the ball?

In his 76-77 season, he ran away with the scoring title in a league that had Kareem, McAdoo, and Dr. J.

And, in his last season, which was the first season of the 3pt line...he shot 10-15 from the arc. Again, I believe he would have THRIVED in this era.

[Pointguard]

I hate to argue with you, because I respect you and your opinion as much as anyone else here, but Pete was not slow. He had blinding speed, was a better ball-handler than Rubio, a FAR greater shooter and scorer than Rubio, not to mention he was taller and more athletic.

The footage is there...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qv0YS1wHoQ

Incidently, in that footage...NO palming or traveling, either. Can you imagine what he could have done with taking 3-4 steps while carrying the ball?

In his 76-77 season, he ran away with the scoring title in a league that had Kareem, McAdoo, and Dr. J.

And, in his last season, which was the first season of the 3pt line...he shot 10-15 from the arc. Again, I believe he would have THRIVED in this era.
Kind of interesting that there is sooo much pre '75 footage there and of different sources! All the flowing hair clips are pre '75 maybe '74. In the beginning of the clip he does seem quick and somewhat fast. Not much after that, tho.

Yes, I noticed that years back on these boards watching Wilt clips that Wilt was very attentive not to take the second step and mentioned it then. So those guys had great fundamentals, especially Oscar and West because they had to contend with so much. Bob McAdoo had a great handle back then as well to go with his solid cross over. Pete was never close to walking in any of those clips.

[oarabbus]

This.

I got heat here for saying that Maravich wouldn't transport well into today's game, primarily because he wasn't that good in his day's game, which should be the first criteria for transport.

Yeah, Nash is one of the most under-rated for me as well.

And I can make a case that KC Jones and Russell ran the Celtic offense much more efficiently than Cousy did. But I wouldn't say Cousy is on my most overrated list.


I know dude. Pete was putting up garbage stats like 31/5/5 what a ****ing scrub.

[LAZERUSS]

Kind of interesting that there is sooo much pre '75 footage there and of different sources! All the flowing hair clips are pre '75 maybe '74. In the beginning of the clip he does seem quick and somewhat fast. Not much after that, tho.

Yes, I noticed that years back on these boards watching Wilt clips that Wilt was very attentive not to take the second step and mentioned it then. So those guys had great fundamentals, especially Oscar and West because they had to contend with so much. Bob McAdoo had a great handle back then as well to go with his solid cross over. Pete was never close to walking in any of those clips.

Way off topic, but like you, I get sick-and-tired of the "Rose-bashing" that goes on in this forum.

If it's any consolation, I am sure that Rose's life is still better than 99.9% of those who post here.

[Pointguard]

I know dude. Pete was putting up garbage stats like 31/5/5 what a ****ing scrub.
I never said he was a scrub, he was exceptionally good. A super talent. My criticism was that he didn't affect the game much. Rick Barry who was also a scorer but affected the game much more.

[plowking]

I don't know who "we" is supposed to mean in the beginning of your quote. Definitely not the ones that I quoted, whose only context includes time traveling and a distorted perception of both level of competition and personal talent. That's not something that the average 10 year old couldn't think about. Comparing players to cars isn't quite accurate, either. The best you might do is compare modern basketball knowledge to cars, but not players themselves, since you have no clue what each past player's personal ceiling was.

Yes, I can compare players themselves as well. The league wasn't fully integrated at the time, average athletes by any standard were playing, and like you said yourself, knowledge at the time was limited, though this isn't something I hold against them, and never have.


Same problem, again. You have no clue about how "lacking in real talent" the league was, because you confuse talent with basketball knowledge. The fact that players didn't do what they do today isn't an indicator that they were unable to do what it's done today, it's an indicator that it still wasn't widely used or even known. Since you like technology analogies, it's not better than calling 1900's humans technologically incompetent due to not seeing anyone use an iPhone or a 21st century PC.

Same problem? Hardly. Like I said, the league wasn't fully integrated, and you had amazing athletes with far more potential unable to play.
I'm not confusing talent for knowledge. I can see clearly that a guy like Wilt is far more talented than a guy like McGee, Z-Bo, Chris Bosh, etc.

The fact is, at the time Cousy was playing, the league was not at its absolute best in terms of what it could possibly be. Weren't the Globetrotters beating the league champions back in the 50's? That speaks plenty.
Cousy today more than likely doesn't make it further than college, simply because he isn't talented enough. Wilt goes on to become one of the best players in the league, if not the best, because he is super talented. No mistaking knowledge for talent.

[red1]

battle for the ages

http://redsarmy.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/bob-cousy.jpg
http://oi33.tinypic.com/25q817l.jpg

vs


http://cdn29.elitedaily.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/dwyane-wade-capris-elite-daily.jpg
http://ioneglobalgrind.files.wordpress.com/2013/05/dwyane-wade-pants-530x339.jpg
http://www.totalprosports.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/dwyane-wade-fashion-nba-finals-game-41.jpg

[RoundMoundOfReb]

http://cdn29.elitedaily.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/dwyane-wade-capris-elite-daily.jpg

Is that Cousy next to Wade?!

[L.Kizzle]

Is that Cousy next to Wade?!
Chris Quinn

[Psileas]

Yes, I can compare players themselves as well. The league wasn't fully integrated at the time, average athletes by any standard were playing, and like you said yourself, knowledge at the time was limited, though this isn't something I hold against them, and never have.

By "you can't compare players", I meant compare players with cars/technological advances. Certainly not their talent. In any case, Cousy hardly had any problems holding his own at the much more integrated 1963 NBA (compared to the early 50's), at the age of 35.



Same problem? Hardly. Like I said, the league wasn't fully integrated, and you had amazing athletes with far more potential unable to play.
I'm not confusing talent for knowledge. I can see clearly that a guy like Wilt is far more talented than a guy like McGee, Z-Bo, Chris Bosh, etc.

The fact is, at the time Cousy was playing, the league was not at its absolute best in terms of what it could possibly be. Weren't the Globetrotters beating the league champions back in the 50's? That speaks plenty.
Cousy today more than likely doesn't make it further than college, simply because he isn't talented enough. Wilt goes on to become one of the best players in the league, if not the best, because he is super talented. No mistaking knowledge for talent.

Yes, same problem. You're talking about Cousy not being talented enough, as if you'd been scouting/training him back in his prime with 2000's techniques. Simply told, Cousy, working with the available 50's knowledge, blew away the best competition of his day (want to call it "white competition"? I don't really care, it's still not easy to be the best white player in the game at your position, right?) and held on very decently in the 60's, including when facing West - who, having played up to a more modern era, makes the case of also calling him "just a college player" much harder, and I hope you won't try to do it. Yet, you imply that there were dozens, if not hundreds of PG's more talented than him that didn't get the chance to play? Even in a fully integrated NBA, around 25% of its players are white (125+ in total) and some of them have been PG's (roughly 25+ in total), and a few of them very good to great at it. Even by cutting these numbers by 3-4 times to match the teams of Cousy's era (actually, the early 50's had more than 50% of today's number of teams), there's still a good chance there's at least 1 white, elite PG. Why wouldn't Cousy stand a chance to be the one or, at worst, be close to the top of this specific category?

[DatAsh]

Macauley ... I'm not trying to underrate Ed Macauley but Cousy was the team.


If Cousy was the team, why were they great with Macauley and average to terrible without him? If Cousy truly was the team, the Celtics should never have fallen off at all when Macauley left. After all, Cousy was peaking, they picked up Russell and Heinsohn, Sharman and Jones soon after, and yet they still crumbled to a bottom of the barrel team. You're definitely underrating Ed Macauley, and so is everyone else. It's the same situation that Wilt and Mutombo found themselves in. If you're a boring player with a flashier teammate, you're not gonna get the credit you deserve. You may be the guy that's most responsible the team's success, but you're teammate is gonna get 90% of the credit.



There's a reason he was traded for Russell and not Cousy.
Yeah, because EVERYONE thought Cousy was by far the better player. I don't agree with that.


Macauley BOST 51-56 POINTS/REBOUNDS/ASSIST in that order
51 - 20/9/4
52 - 19/8/4
53 - 20/9/4
54 - 19/8/4
55 - 18/9/4
56 - 18/5/3

vs

Cousy BOST 51-56
51 - 16/5/7
52 - 22/6/7
53 - 20/6/8 (assist league leader)
54 - 19/6/7 (assist league leader)
55 - 21/6/8 (assist league leader)
56 - 19/7/9 (assist league leader)

and Playoffs

Macauley BOST 51-56
51 - 22/9/4
52 - 23/11/4
53 - 17/10/4
54 - 5/4/4 (injured)
55 - 18/7/5
56 - 10/5/2

Cousy BOST 51-56
51 - 14/8/6
52 - 31/4/6
53 - 26/4/6 (playoff points leader)
54 - 21/5/6 (playoff points and assist leader)
55 - 22/6/9 (playoff points and assist leader)
56 - 26/8/9 (playoff assist leader)

Playoff stats are 2-7 games, far too little for a meaningful sample size. Also, considering they had similar scoring numbers, you also left off the most important stat, efficiency. Cousy was one of the best passers ever - better than his stats would indicate - but he was a below average shooter in traffic, and nowhere near the decision maker of guys like Magic, Robertson, Isiah, Stockton, Nash, or Paul. If you want a valid statistical comparison between these guys, you have to include efficiency. Cousy was averaging 35-39% on teams that were averaging 38-40%. On those same teams, Macauley was averaging 42-48%. Not denying that Cousy was a good player, but if I'm drafting Celtic players from the 50s/60s, he wouldn't go top 5.

[TonyMontana]

battle for the ages

http://redsarmy.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/bob-cousy.jpg

What is a pic like this supposed to even prove?

This is basketball, not bodybuilding.

Steve Nash, Dirk, Duncan all don't have a lot of muscle mass and are thin. You could even get a pic of James Harden in tight clothing and he'd look chubby yet he is arguablt the best player in the league.

Muscle mass is exceptionally overrated in basketball. This is a realtively new fad, I believe the excessive obsession with "weight training" is what is making injuries so widespread, primarily among 7 footers who who end up being close to 300 pounds. Running up and down the court with that kind of baggage can't be good on the knees.

[houston]

Cousy was easily the best guard of his era. Wade ... not.


yea this true