Kevin Love needs to leave the Cavs

[ralph_i_el]

It's obvious that he's not comfortable being the 3rd wheel on this team. Here are some facts.

1. Few players go ISO more than Irving
2. Lebron plays PF about 40% of the time
3. Lebron posts on the left block (Love's preferred spot)

This accounts for the huge drop in shots for Love. His shooting % is down, but that's because he's taking a higher % of his shots from 3 this season. We all knew that was going to happen.

Personality wise, Love is an introvert and a bit of a loner. He's not the guy that's going to demand more shots, he's the type that's going to stew and get pissed while clowns like Irving and Bron run the locker room. I can imagine how angry he must have been when Bron subtweeted him.

His game has 1 weakness and that's paint defense.

He's a "Loser" for playing on absolutely HORRIBLE Twolves squads. Ricky Rubio definitely inflated Love's stats (but couldn't shoot, so he got left alone in the clutch, but he played with Pekovic (no D, can't finish at the rim), and mostly wings that can't shoot.

We've never seen Love on a squad optimized for his strengths...ever...not ONCE.

But what about:

Goran Dragic
Bledsoe
PJ Tucker
Kevin Love
Alex Len (really good rim protector)

6th man: Morris

(imagine the outlet passes to Goran!)

John Wall
Brad Beal
Pierce/ Otto Porter (Otto is going to be good, mark my words)
Love
Gortat
(Spacing, toughness, and Wall will feed Love better than anyone in the league)



Ty Lawson
Afflalo
Gallinari
Love
Nurkic
(Fit's Love like a glove, plus his outlet passing would help fuel a fast paced O in Denver, where they'll wear teams down in the high altitude like those recent George Karl teams)


Rose
Butler
Dunleavy (love this guy)
Love
Noah
(Noah may be the best big man pairing with Love)


All these squads will have Love putting up ~23ppg, and making the playoffs as a high seed.

Thoughts?

[DukeDelonte13]

17 and 10 and he's winning games.

[ralph_i_el]

17 and 10 and he's winning games.

And getting shit on by casual fans
And getting subtweeted by his 30 going on 13 teammate

[lilteapot]

And getting shit on by casual fans
And getting subtweeted by his 30 going on 13 teammate
lol @ you acting like either of those things matter to him

[JUDGE WITNESS]

And getting subtweeted by his 30 going on 13 teammate

:lol link?

[ralph_i_el]

lol @ you acting like either of those things matter to him

has Love looked happy at all this season? He looks completely miserable playing on this squad. Why (as a free agent) would he want to play in CLEVELAND with two guys who hog the ball and turn him into a spot up shooter?



:lol link?

http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/02/09/lebron-james-admits-fit-in-tweet-aimed-at-kevin-love-wants-him-to-buy-into-team/

[Nastradamus]

Love will smile hugely when he's wearing a ring. Just stop. The Pistons will sign and trade Greg Monroe for him though if they like.

[ralph_i_el]

Love will smile hugely when he's wearing a ring. Just stop. The Pistons will sign and trade Greg Monroe for him though if they like.


well he won't be wearing one this year, and he's a free agent after this season :confusedshrug:

[2swift4u]

you may be right but it all depends on their success. If the Cavs win there's no reason to leave. If they lose in the first or second playoff round then he might leave.

[RedBlackAttack]

while clowns like Irving and Bron run the locker room.
Seriously?

So, the question becomes, should I bother to read the rest of this post or is it simply a more creative attempt at trolling than your average troll thread? Does it warrant an actual discussion, because based on the above sentiment, I'd say no.

If KLove wants to win, he'll stay where he is. If he wants a larger role, that's fine, but it won't be on a championship contender. After watching him for 40+ games, he is not good enough an offensive talent to be the first or second option on a championship contender.

That said, he's still very good and makes for a potentially lethal third option. I maintain that he has been battling health issues all season. That has been backed up by numerous reports citing back problems since the first game of the season. I'm hoping this All-Star break allows him the time he needs to get back to health.

Outside of that, he is the clear third best player on this team. His role within the offense is reflecting that. Kyrie has had to adjust his game as much or moreso to fit alongside LeBron and he has thrived in that role. If Love can't make his game work on this roster, it says more about him than it does about the other guys.

That's the simple truth.

[kamil]

And getting shit on by casual fans
And getting subtweeted by his 30 going on 13 teammate

What the hell does 'subtweeted' mean?

[RedBlackAttack]

What the hell does 'subtweeted' mean?
More to the point, who cares what the "casual fan" says? If he is a major piece of a championship level roster, who cares what some idiot who isn't even paying attention says about him?

[J Shuttlesworth]

lol @ thinking someone basically saying to let yourself fit in = being attacked on twitter

[J Shuttlesworth]

More to the point, who cares what the "casual fan" says? If he is a major piece of a championship level roster, who cares what some idiot who isn't even paying attention says about him?
This too.

I bet OP is the kind of person who thinks Kevin Love gets offended by "empty stats" comments on the internet

[LoneyROY7]

OP just wants to see dem empty stats again.

[RedBlackAttack]

lol @ thinking someone basically saying to let yourself fit in = being attacked on twitter
Keep in mind OP is a Wizards fan. He has a vested interest in Love leaving the Cavs.

[Lebron23]

He's a much better situation in Cleveland.

[Legends66NBA7]

Don't know if he leaves or not, but I always though about how Love would look with the Rockets ?

Presuming off course Dwight returns to what he was at least in his first season in Houston. Can they sign him ?

[ralph_i_el]

Seriously?

So, the question becomes, should I bother to read the rest of this post or is it simply a more creative attempt at trolling than your average troll thread? Does it warrant an actual discussion, because based on the above sentiment, I'd say no.

If KLove wants to win, he'll stay where he is. If he wants a larger role, that's fine, but it won't be on a championship contender. After watching him for 40+ games, he is not good enough an offensive talent to be the first or second option on a championship contender.

That said, he's still very good and makes for a potentially lethal third option. I maintain that he has been battling health issues all season. That has been backed up by numerous reports citing back problems since the first game of the season. I'm hoping this All-Star break allows him the time he needs to get back to health.

Outside of that, he is the clear third best player on this team. His role within the offense is reflecting that. Kyrie has had to adjust his game as much or moreso to fit alongside LeBron and he has thrived in that role. If Love can't make his game work on this roster, it says more about him than it does about the other guys.

That's the simple truth.

Kyrie has had to adjust his game more? Is that why the % of his buckets that are assisted is at the lowest point in his career? He scores the second most ISO points per game in the league. Kyrie still gets to do his thing.

I'm not trolling, I just really like Kevin Love. I'm a UCLA fan so I've liked him forever. Kevin Love has had a larger drop in USG% than Kyrie, and a much higher % of his shots are assisted than any year in his career. Fact is, he rarely gets the chance to create his own shot anymore.

It's easy to see the difference between Love now and Love the last few seasons. He's one of the best in the league in the low post and getting way fewer touches there this season. He never gets to work guys at the 3 point line anymore. He's actually being assisted on MORE of his 3's than any point in his career, and shooting a lower %. He's one of the best I've ever seen at shooting 3's from the triple threat and making guys look foolish....but again, he never gets to do it anymore.

Love has changed his game so much to play with Lebron and Irving.

In terms of winning games, it's for the best. I always said the same thing with Bosh, why run plays and change your style to fit a guy who isn't as good as Lebron....when you have Lebron to do those things? I'd just like to see Love play on a team where the offense is centered on his considerable talents. Love is a better offensive player than Irving. Love just isn't a primary ballhandler who gets to hijack the offense. He needs teammates to feed him the ball just like any big man.


And if I was Love, sacrificing my game for Lebron, and then get subtweeted "fit in" I'd be pissed:
1. If you're the leader, talk to my face and not to your millions of followers
2. **** you dude. I went from carrying a good offense to not getting my touches.

[Big Cheese]

if he wants to win he should stay
if he is worried about putting up stats he should leave.

[Lebron23]

if he wants to win he should stay
if he worried about putting up stats he should leave.


I know he's kinda a stats conscious type of player. At least he's still putting up better numbers than Bosh last 2 years with Miami LeBron.

[ralph_i_el]

if he wants to win he should stay
if he is worried about putting up stats he should leave.
Plenty of teams would be contenders with Love.
The Cavs aren't contenders without him

[bizil]

Love is in a great position! I'm sure he knew coming in that his stats would take a hit. The main issue to me is simply coming up with the right chemistry to maximize his ability on that squad. He's still a top 3-4 PF in the world he proved that in Minnesota.

But what's makes Love unique is that he's a stretch PF, a great rebounder, and a great passing big man all in one. No other big man in the league can make that claim. And the only one historically who can make that claim was when Bird played PF. Skillset wise, that's a great fit with Bron and Kyrie.

[ralph_i_el]

Skillset wise, that's a great fit with Bron and Kyrie.

I'm not convinced that anyone is a great fit with Kyrie

[poido123]

It's obvious that he's not comfortable being the 3rd wheel on this team. Here are some facts.

1. Few players go ISO more than Irving
2. Lebron plays PF about 40% of the time
3. Lebron posts on the left block (Love's preferred spot)

This accounts for the huge drop in shots for Love. His shooting % is down, but that's because he's taking a higher % of his shots from 3 this season. We all knew that was going to happen.

Personality wise, Love is an introvert and a bit of a loner. He's not the guy that's going to demand more shots, he's the type that's going to stew and get pissed while clowns like Irving and Bron run the locker room. I can imagine how angry he must have been when Bron subtweeted him.

His game has 1 weakness and that's paint defense.

He's a "Loser" for playing on absolutely HORRIBLE Twolves squads. Ricky Rubio definitely inflated Love's stats (but couldn't shoot, so he got left alone in the clutch, but he played with Pekovic (no D, can't finish at the rim), and mostly wings that can't shoot.

We've never seen Love on a squad optimized for his strengths...ever...not ONCE.

But what about:

Goran Dragic
Bledsoe
PJ Tucker
Kevin Love
Alex Len (really good rim protector)

6th man: Morris

(imagine the outlet passes to Goran!)

John Wall
Brad Beal
Pierce/ Otto Porter (Otto is going to be good, mark my words)
Love
Gortat
(Spacing, toughness, and Wall will feed Love better than anyone in the league)



Ty Lawson
Afflalo
Gallinari
Love
Nurkic
(Fit's Love like a glove, plus his outlet passing would help fuel a fast paced O in Denver, where they'll wear teams down in the high altitude like those recent George Karl teams)


Rose
Butler
Dunleavy (love this guy)
Love
Noah
(Noah may be the best big man pairing with Love)


All these squads will have Love putting up ~23ppg, and making the playoffs as a high seed.

Thoughts?


a quality post that shows good knowledge.


Repped :applause:

[Lebron23]

Love is in a great position! I'm sure he knew coming in that his stats would take a hit. The main issue to me is simply coming up with the right chemistry to maximize his ability on that squad. He's still a top 3-4 PF in the world he proved that in Minnesota.

But what's makes Love unique is that he's a stretch PF, a great rebounder, and a great passing big man all in one. No other big man in the league can make that claim. And the only one historically who can make that claim was when Bird played PF. Skillset wise, that's a great fit with Bron and Kyrie.


:applause: :applause: :applause:

[J Shuttlesworth]

a quality post that shows good knowledge.


Repped :applause:
Could you imagine the Love/Thibs relationship? :roll: Imagine how hard Thibs would be screaming about his defense

[poido123]

Keep in mind OP is a Wizards fan. He has a vested interest in Love leaving the Cavs.


A quality post is a quality post :confusedshrug:


He was pretty on point with explaining loves fit on the Cavs and how he would fit on different teams. Well explained IMO

[ralph_i_el]

A quality post is a quality post :confusedshrug:


He was pretty on point with explaining loves fit on the Cavs and how he would fit on different teams. Well explained IMO

Thanks :cheers:

[bizil]

I'm not convinced that anyone is a great fit with Kyrie

Kyrie is a score first PG no doubt about it. In a perfect world, Love would be the second option on the team. But Lebron is the guy who steers the ship so I feel the Cavs will win rings despite Kyrie's style.

In Love's case, he was a 26 PPG scorer and now is a third option. Scoring nearly ten points less than what he was in Minny. So I can see your point. But if winning rings is the sole objective, I think he's in a great place.

In terms of getting the most of his ability given his role on that team, that's a work in progress no doubt. I believe Love is capable of doing more!

[RedBlackAttack]

Kyrie has had to adjust his game more? Is that why the % of his buckets that are assisted is at the lowest point in his career? He scores the second most ISO points per game in the league. Kyrie still gets to do his thing.
That's because playing alongside two other great players and a solid roster for the first time in his career allows him more space to attack and he is one of the best isolation players in the entire league. The Cavs smartly utilize that, but it is in a completely different way than he has in the past.

Prior to LeBron sitting out for two weeks, his usage rate was hovering around 21, down from hovering around 30 which he had since basically coming into the league.

He has learned how to play off the ball... to find his spots and utilize screens. He is actually a better player when James is on the floor with him which wasn't at all predictable when you consider their games prior to coming together.

Last year, 45.5% of his threes were assisted. This year, that number has soared to 58.4% and would be even higher had LBJ not sat out for two weeks. He has had to add elements to his game that weren't there prior and that includes a much higher intensity on the defensive end.

He is becoming a more complete player and when met with the challenge of playing alongside other great players, he has fit in very well. Love needs to do the same.

Luckily, there is still plenty of time and he often shows flashes of doing so. He just needs to be more consistent with it.


I'm not trolling, I just really like Kevin Love. I'm a UCLA fan so I've liked him forever. Kevin Love has had a larger drop in USG% than Kyrie, and a much higher % of his shots are assisted than any year in his career. Fact is, he rarely gets the chance to create his own shot anymore.

It's easy to see the difference between Love now and Love the last few seasons. He's one of the best in the league in the low post and getting way fewer touches there this season. He never gets to work guys at the 3 point line anymore. He's actually being assisted on MORE of his 3's than any point in his career, and shooting a lower %. He's one of the best I've ever seen at shooting 3's from the triple threat and making guys look foolish....but again, he never gets to do it anymore.

Love has changed his game so much to play with Lebron and Irving.

In terms of winning games, it's for the best. I always said the same thing with Bosh, why run plays and change your style to fit a guy who isn't as good as Lebron....when you have Lebron to do those things? I'd just like to see Love play on a team where the offense is centered on his considerable talents.
And I'm with you on that. Part of the problem is that Love and LeBron both like to attack from the elbow, so their games aren't as natural a fit as they could be. As for him getting a surplus of his offense creating outside the three-point line? It just doesn't make much sense when you LBJ and Irving, two of the best in the league from those areas of the floor.

That doesn't mean that he has no role on this team. They need a low post scorer/creator and we're starting to see him do more of that lately. He should still be used at the elbow to run the offense through occasionally and I think you'll see more of that as these guys continue playing together and the offense continues molding to fit their talents.

It is easy to forget that they're just 40 games into playing with one another.

It isn't all about making the offense fit Love, though. He needs to make his game fit the offense, too. That means becoming a better spot-up shooter, being tougher around the basket (where he often gets out-muscled) and finding the openings inside an offense with two other great offensive talents. Make teams pay for switching guys onto you that would have never defended you in Minnesota.

The openings are there... he just needs to adapt his game.

He's not going to get the same looks as he did in Minnesota and he shouldn't. If his aspirations are to win and not simply put up good numbers, that should be something he both expected and embraced by now.



And if I was Love, sacrificing my game for Lebron, and then get subtweeted "fit in" I'd be pissed:
1. If you're the leader, talk to my face and not to your millions of followers
2. **** you dude. I went from carrying a good offense to not getting my touches.

LeBron has always been a suspect "leader," imo. I'm not sure what went down with those tweets, but I wasn't necessarily surprised. Great players don't always make great leaders. Early in the season, he was chastising the team for being lazy on defense when he was one of the biggest culprits at the time.

I actually agree with the sentiment that Love needs to do a little more to fit in on this roster. He's a talented enough player to tweak his game to fit the circumstances. But, you don't put that out there publicly.

Then again, these guys know one another and I'm not privy to what happens behind closed doors. Love often seems aloof and distant. Maybe James thought this was the only way he could really get his attention.

At the end of the day, this team will be judged by what happens in the playoffs. They still present heavy matchup problems for every team in the league. If they win when it counts, all of this other stuff will be forgotten.

LBJ and Kyrie probably can't do it without Love, but Love definitely can't do it without LeBron and Kyrie. He has got to find his place and be more consistent. Yeah, it is incumbent on the rest of the team and the coaching staff to exploit his strengths, but it is also on Love to exploit mismatches and fill the gaps.

[KNOW1EDGE]

If Kevin Love cared about stats and having his own team he would have stayed with the Wolves. But he doesn't care about that stuff.

Kevin Love wants to win a championship, that's why he went to Cleveland. The Cavs give him the best shot to reach his ultimate goal of winning a championship. He's not leaving any time soon.

[ralph_i_el]

That's because playing alongside two other great players and a solid roster for the first time in his career allows him more space to attack and he is one of the best isolation players in the entire league. The Cavs smartly utilize that, but it is in a completely different way than he has in the past.

Prior to LeBron sitting out for two weeks, his usage rate was hovering around 21, down from hovering around 30 which he had since basically coming into the league.

He has learned how to play off the ball... to find his spots and utilize screens. He is actually a better player when James is on the floor with him which wasn't at all predictable when you consider their games prior to coming together.

Last year, 45.5% of his threes were assisted. This year, that number has soared to 58.4% and would be even higher had LBJ not sat out for two weeks. He has had to add elements to his game that weren't there prior and that includes a much higher intensity on the defensive end.

He is becoming a more complete player and when met with the challenge of playing alongside other great players, he has fit in very well. Love needs to do the same.

Luckily, there is still plenty of time and he often shows flashes of doing so. He just needs to be more consistent with it.


And I'm with you on that. Part of the problem is that Love and LeBron both like to attack from the elbow, so their games aren't as natural a fit as they could be. As for him getting a surplus of his offense creating outside the three-point line? It just doesn't make much sense when you LBJ and Irving, two of the best in the league from those areas of the floor.

That doesn't mean that he has no role on this team. They need a low post scorer/creator and we're starting to see him do more of that lately. He should still be used at the elbow to run the offense through occasionally and I think you'll see more of that as these guys continue playing together and the offense continues molding to fit their talents.

It is easy to forget that they're just 40 games into playing with one another.

It isn't all about making the offense fit Love, though. He needs to make his game fit the offense, too. That means becoming a better spot-up shooter, being tougher around the basket (where he often gets out-muscled) and finding the openings inside an offense with two other great offensive talents. Make teams pay for switching guys onto you that would have never defended you in Minnesota.

The openings are there... he just needs to adapt his game.

He's not going to get the same looks as he did in Minnesota and he shouldn't. If his aspirations are to win and not simply put up good numbers, that should be something he both expected and embraced by now.



LeBron has always been a suspect "leader," imo. I'm not sure what went down with those tweets, but I wasn't necessarily surprised. Great players don't always make great leaders. Early in the season, he was chastising the team for being lazy on defense when he was one of the biggest culprits at the time.

I actually agree with the sentiment that Love needs to do a little more to fit in on this roster. He's a talented enough player to tweak his game to fit the circumstances. But, you don't put that out there publicly.

Then again, these guys know one another and I'm not privy to what happens behind closed doors. Love often seems aloof and distant. Maybe James thought this was the only way he could really get his attention.

At the end of the day, this team will be judged by what happens in the playoffs. They still present heavy matchup problems for every team in the league. If they win when it counts, all of this other stuff will be forgotten.

LBJ and Kyrie probably can't do it without Love, but Love definitely can't do it without LeBron and Kyrie. He has got to find his place and be more consistent. Yeah, it is incumbent on the rest of the team and the coaching staff to exploit his strengths, but it is also on Love to exploit mismatches and fill the gaps.


I don't disagree with any part of this post. I guess I'm just a bit of a Love stan and I think he could be the 1st option on a contender if he was on a team built around him.

[RedBlackAttack]

Kyrie is a score first PG no doubt about it. In a perfect world, Love would be the second option on the team. But Lebron is the guy who steers the ship so I feel the Cavs will win rings despite Kyrie's style.

In Love's case, he was a 26 PPG scorer and now is a third option. Scoring nearly ten points less than what he was in Minny. So I can see your point. But if winning rings is the sole objective, I think he's in a great place.

In terms of getting the most of his ability given his role on that team, that's a work in progress no doubt. I believe Love is capable of doing more!
So, despite Kyrie fitting almost seamlessly next to LeBron and putting up career numbers on career efficiency while also playing solid defense, Love's issues fitting in are somehow the fault of Irving?

It seems to me that people initially wanted to blame Kyrie for any potential problems the team ran into this season before the preseason even started. Love gets plenty of court time without Kyrie. It's not like they are out there together at all times.

Kyrie is the second option and sometimes the first option because he's really good. Love is the clear third option because that's where his game has put him.

LeBron's usage is higher than it has been in the last five years. When you are accustomed to having the offense run through you as Love and Kyrie have been the last few years, there is an adjustment to playing alongside a guy like that. Kyrie has made that adjustment far better than Love and that's just a fact.

For Kyrie, it has raised the level of his game. Love needs to follow suit. Like I said, if he can't find a way to fit, it says more about him than it does the other guys.

[poido123]

Could you imagine the Love/Thibs relationship? :roll: Imagine how hard Thibs would be screaming about his defense


Probably the same treatment boozer got.

20 minutes off the bench and a short leash :(

[Lebron23]

If Kevin Love cared about stats and having his own team he would have stayed with the Wolves. But he doesn't care about that stuff.

Kevin Love wants to win a championship, that's why he went to Cleveland. The Cavs give him the best shot to reach his ultimate goal of winning a championship. He's not leaving any time soon.

:applause: :applause: :applause:

[bizil]

So, despite Kyrie fitting almost seamlessly next to LeBron and putting up career numbers on career efficiency while also playing solid defense, Love's issues fitting in are somehow the fault of Irving?

It seems to me that people initially wanted to blame Kyrie for any potential problems the team ran into this season before the preseason even started. Love gets plenty of court time without Kyrie. It's not like they are out there together at all times.

Kyrie is the second option and sometimes the first option because he's really good. Love is the clear third option because that's where his game has put him.

LeBron's usage is higher than it has been in the last five years. When you are accustomed to having the offense run through you as Love and Kyrie have been the last few years, there is an adjustment to playing alongside a guy like that. Kyrie has made that adjustment far better than Love and that's just a fact.

For Kyrie, it has raised the level of his game. Love needs to follow suit. Like I said, if he can't find a way to fit, it says more about him than it does the other guys.

I'm not saying it's Kyrie's fault! My point was Love went from a number one scoring option to a number three scoring option. And Kyrie has made the adjustment FAR BETTER because he's a PG. He has the ball in his hands a lot more. And Kyrie went from a number one option to a number two option. So OF COURSE its gonna take Love more time to fit in.

After all, he's sacrificing more of his game than Kyrie or Bron. And I truly feel Love will make the adjustment. I think he's playing well now, but I think he's capable of more. And earlier, I did state that Kyrie is a score first PG WHICH IS A FACT! So with Kyrie's mentality, Love became a number three option. I wasnt dissing Kyrie at all, I was just stating what is obvious.

[RedBlackAttack]

I'm not saying it's Kyrie's fault! My point was Love went from a number one scoring option to a number three scoring option. And Kyrie has made the adjustment FAR BETTER because he's a PG. He has the ball in his hands a lot more. And Kyrie went from a number one option to a number two option. So OF COURSE its gonna take Love more time to fit in.

After all, he's sacrificing more of his game than Kyrie or Bron. And I truly feel Love will make the adjustment. I think he's playing well now, but I think he's capable of more. And earlier, I did state that Kyrie is a score first PG WHICH IS A FACT! So with Kyrie's mentality, Love became a number three option. I wasnt dissing Kyrie at all, I was just stating what is obvious.
But, you did say you feel they'll win rings "despite Irving's style," which seems to imply that he's the reason there has been issues with Love fitting in.

LeBron is defacto point guard, just like he was in Miami and just like he was in Cleveland from 2003-10. The offense is always going to primarily run through him, because that's his game.

Kyrie is the secondary facilitator on this team. If LeBron or Blatt honestly felt as if Love was the better scorer than Irving, the shot distribution chart would look different.

He's not and it hasn't.

Kyrie is putting up 20.7 points on 16.0 shots a game with an eFG% of 53.0 and a usage rate of 25.3.

Love is putting up 17.0 points on 13.0 shots a game with an eFG% of 49.4 and a usage rate of 22.0 (still pretty damn high).

And, if you take out the two weeks that LBJ sat out, Love and Kyrie's usage rate would be even closer.

They are both getting plenty of opportunities to succeed. And, the Cavs aren't winning recently "in spite of" Irving, but in large part because of him. The guy is putting up 24 points on 50/49/83 splits in the last 20 games to go along with 6 assists a night while playing as a secondary facilitator.

I personally think Love is doing OK. Lots of his issues this year have been health related, imo, and he still has plenty of nights where he's a major problem for opponents. Like I said, I'm hoping this All-Star break provides him with much needed time to heal his back.

I'm really glad he didn't make the team. He needs the time.

At the end of the day, on this team with this much offensive firepower, a guy who can step in and provide 17/11 every night on good efficiency is hugely important.

Think about the longterm implications of this team, too. Love only just turned 26 and Kyrie is still just 22. As LeBron starts to age, his role will surely reduce and more will be asked of the young stars. Love coming here (hopefully) wasn't just about this season.

[bizil]

But, you did say you feel they'll win rings "despite Irving's style," which seems to imply that he's the reason there has been issues with Love fitting in.

LeBron is defacto point guard, just like he was in Miami and just like he was in Cleveland from 2003-10. The offense is always going to primarily run through him, because that's his game.

Kyrie is the secondary facilitator on this team. If LeBron or Blatt honestly felt as if Love was the better scorer than Irving, the shot distribution chart would look different.

He's not and it hasn't.

Kyrie is putting up 20.7 points on 16.0 shots a game with an eFG% of 53.0 and a usage rate of 25.3.

Love is putting up 17.0 points on 13.0 shots a game with an eFG% of 49.4 and a usage rate of 22.0 (still pretty damn high).

And, if you take out the two weeks that LBJ sat out, Love and Kyrie's usage rate would be even closer.

They are both getting plenty of opportunities to succeed. And, the Cavs aren't winning recently "in spite of" Irving, but in large part because of him. The guy is putting up 24 points on 50/49/83 splits in the last 20 games to go along with 6 assists a night while playing as a secondary facilitator.

I personally think Love is doing OK. Lots of his issues this year have been health related, imo, and he still has plenty of nights where he's a major problem for opponents. Like I said, I'm hoping this All-Star break provides him with much needed time to heal his back.

I'm really glad he didn't make the team. He needs the time.

At the end of the day, on this team with this much offensive firepower, a guy who can step in and provide 17/11 every night on good efficiency is hugely important.

Think about the longterm implications of this team, too. Love only just turned 26 and Kyrie is still just 22. As LeBron starts to age, his role will surely reduce and more will be asked of the young stars. Love coming here (hopefully) wasn't just about this season.

I'm saying that despite Kyrie's mentality (which is a dominant score first PG) that the Cavs will still win rings. Hell many of the top PG's today are score first PG's. I wasn't saying that as a knock. Due to the fact that Bron is the best player in the world and a point forward, Kyrie's style isn't a hinderance in my opinion.

If you really understood my initial post, I was DEFENDING Kyrie. He catches a lot of heat because of his playing style. That's why I said DESPITE Kyrie's style, the Cavs will still win rings. Im not knocking Kyrie's style of play at all. I was defending him to those who knock him FOR HIS STYLE OF PLAY!

If the Cavs had a pass first PG like Paul, Wall, Rondo, etc., Love would be the 2nd scoring option. But due to Kyrie's style, Love is a third option. That's not a knock, ITS A FACT!! U can be a great PG by being pass first OR score first. It's a matter of taste in terms of which u prefer.

And I realize Bron is the de facto PG anywhere he goes. BUT Kyrie still has the ball in his hands a lot and is the primary playmaker often during the course of game. His primary position is PG. And looking at Kyrie's numbers, his scoring average IS UP from last year. While his assists are a bit down, which I expected with Bron coming on board. Look at Love's numbers and the substantial dip in scoring (nine point dip) and decent dip in boards (down two boards a night). So numbers don't lie. So once again, Im not knocking Kyrie or his style of play.

[RedBlackAttack]

I'm saying that despite Kyrie's mentality (which is a dominant score first PG) that the Cavs will still win rings. Hell many of the top PG's today are score first PG's. I wasn't saying that as a knock. Due to the fact that Bron is the best player in the world and a point forward, Kyrie's style isn't a hinderance in my opinion.

If you really understood my initial post, I was DEFENDING Kyrie. He catches a lot of heat because of his playing style. That's why I said DESPITE Kyrie's style, the Cavs will still win rings. Im not knocking Kyrie's style of play at all. I was defending him to those who knock him FOR HIS STYLE OF PLAY!

If the Cavs had a pass first PG like Paul, Wall, Rondo, etc., Love would be the 2nd scoring option. But due to Kyrie's style, Love is a third option. That's not a knock, ITS A FACT!! U can be a great PG by being pass first OR score first. It's a matter of taste in terms of which u prefer.
Let's move past it. The way that most NBA teams operate today, the need for a guy to go out there and single-handedly get you 10-15 assists per night is a thing of the past.

The game has become much more perimeter oriented, which means the best players in the league choose to attack from there. It doesn't leave much room for a traditional PG to stand out above the three-point line and orchestrate the offense.

Furthermore, I don't think LeBron would fit in at all with a traditional PG, because the things he does leaves little room for a guy to go out and rack up a ton of assists.

A great spot-up shooting player who can get his own shot when needed and serve as a secondary playmaker when needed is really what James' game needs at the 1. That's exactly what Irving provides.

There are parts of Love's game and parts of LeBron's game that are redundant, which is why they've had a few issues meshing... particularly how good they both are operating from the elbow.

We both agree that Love is going to have to sacrifice if he really wants to win a title. The Cavs still need him, though... he just has to adapt his game to fit alongside James and Irving. He's starting to get there, imo, but he will always be the third option as long as those two are in their respective primes.

[Black Mamba's B]

Has LeBron ever adjusted his style of play to help the team?

[bizil]

Let's move past it. The way that most NBA teams operate today, the need for a guy to go out there and single-handedly get you 10-15 assists per night is a thing of the past.

The game has become much more perimeter oriented, which means the best players in the league choose to attack from there. It doesn't leave much room for a traditional PG to stand out above the three-point line and orchestrate the offense.

Furthermore, I don't think LeBron would fit in at all with a traditional PG, because the things he does leaves little room for a guy to go out and rack up a ton of assists.

A great spot-up shooting player who can get his own shot when needed and serve as a secondary playmaker when needed is really what James' game needs at the 1. That's exactly what Irving provides.

There are parts of Love's game and parts of LeBron's game that are redundant, which is why they've had a few issues meshing... particularly how good they both are operating from the elbow.

We both agree that Love is going to have to sacrifice if he really wants to win a title. The Cavs still need him, though... he just has to adapt his game to fit alongside James and Irving. He's starting to get there, imo, but he will always be the third option as long as those two are in their respective primes.

I agree! I for one thought Kyrie and Bron would fit well because of Kyrie's offensive skillset. At the PG position, I think Kyrie, Curry, and Lillard have the best scoring skillsets. He can play with or without the ball and dominate a game. I think Love is fine being the third option, but he just to figure out how to be the best third option he can be.

[J Shuttlesworth]

Has LeBron ever adjusted his style of play to help the team?
Yes. He developed a post game 2012, and became a much better off ball player with the Heat, and now he's playing more of a PG role compared to on the Heat where the PG roles were divided into 3

[KyrieTheFuture]

This was a thinly veiled jab at Kyrie Irving

[ArbitraryWater]

I don't disagree with any part of this post. I guess I'm just a bit of a Love stan and I think he could be the 1st option on a contender if he was on a team built around him.

wtf

[ralph_i_el]

This was a thinly veiled jab at Kyrie Irving
I don't need to veil my jabs at Irving. I'm pretty clearly anti-Irving

[ralph_i_el]

wtf
What part of this doesn't make sense to you?
Kevin Love is one of the top offensive weapons in the league. The Twolves had the 9th highest Ortg last season with injuries, a pg who couldn't shoot at all, no good wings, and a Center who can't finish at the rim. I guess Kevin martin is an ok player...but he was the second scoring option on a TOP 10 offense. Love is a beast.

[RedBlackAttack]

I don't need to veil my jabs at Irving. I'm pretty clearly anti-Irving
The John Wall - Kyrie Irving fan rivalry that exists is one of the weirder ones that I've lived through. They've never played an important game against one another, yet each side seems to dislike the other. It's the NBA's answer to the Cold War... secretly hoping for failure from afar. Or, not so secretly in this case, I guess.

If you go onto the YouTube comments section of anything related to Kyrie Irving and it is filled with vitriolic "not a real PG" stuff from John Wall fans.

[ralph_i_el]

The John Wall - Kyrie Irving fan rivalry that exists is one of the weirder ones that I've lived through. They've never played an important game against one another, yet each side seems to dislike the other. It's the NBA's answer to the Cold War... secretly hoping for failure from afar. Or, not so secretly in this case, I guess.

If you go onto the YouTube comments section of anything related to Kyrie Irving and it is filled with vitriolic "not a real PG" stuff from John Wall fans.
It's not so weird. They're about the same age, play in the same conference, and play the same position with exactly opposite styles.

[RedBlackAttack]

It's not so weird. They're about the same age, play in the same conference, and play the same position with exactly opposite styles.
I guess ... it's sort of like a mini version of the LeBron/Kobe rivalry.

Things could finally get interesting this season. Good chance the Cavs-Wiz will meet in the playoffs.

[ralph_i_el]

I guess ... it's sort of like a mini version of the LeBron/Kobe rivalry.

Things could finally get interesting this season. Good chance the Cavs-Wiz will meet in the playoffs.

Now that the Cavs have a legit center I don't think the Wiz have any chance against them.

I'm a huge wizards fan....but they're really overrated. Horrible coaching and no go-to scorer.

[Prime_Shaq]

I guess ... it's sort of like a mini version of the LeBron/Kobe rivalry.

Things could finally get interesting this season. Good chance the Cavs-Wiz will meet in the playoffs.
Throwback to the LeBron-Arenas days? :lol

[ralph_i_el]

Throwback to the LeBron-Arenas days? :lol
Maybe we can get soulja boy courtside again:rolleyes:

[PleezeBelieve]

RBA is SUCH A FUKKIN HOMER.

Geez... do you ever take off the homer glasses?

Cavs just played the weakest part of their schedule. Team ain't winning a ring with Kyrie at the 2nd option. Team should be run through LeBron first and Love second.

LeBron - 25/7/6

Love - 21/11/3

Kyrie - 17/6/4


That's how the breakdown should be. Kyrie and Love's roles should be inverted. Simple.

[red1]

RBA is SUCH A FUKKIN HOMER.

Geez... do you ever take off the homer glasses?

Cavs just played the weakest part of their schedule. Team ain't winning a ring with Kyrie at the 2nd option. Team should be run through LeBron first and Love second.

LeBron - 25/7/6

Love - 21/11/3

Kyrie - 17/6/4


That's how the breakdown should be. Kyrie and Love's roles should be inverted. Simple.
and what is your reasoning for those numbers that you pulled out of your ass? kyrie is better than love, period

[PleezeBelieve]

and what is your reasoning for those numbers that you pulled out of your ass? kyrie is better than love, period
Kyrie better than Love? :roll: :roll: :roll:

Okay :rolleyes:

I try to enlighten but some love the darkness.

[Nash]

Kevin Love needs to just start making his shots, he misses way too much. That is all.

[Suguru101]

Some people really think that Kyrie is better than Love....

Wow.

[RedBlackAttack]

RBA is SUCH A FUKKIN HOMER.

Geez... do you ever take off the homer glasses?

Cavs just played the weakest part of their schedule. Team ain't winning a ring with Kyrie at the 2nd option. Team should be run through LeBron first and Love second.

LeBron - 25/7/6

Love - 21/11/3

Kyrie - 17/6/4


That's how the breakdown should be. Kyrie and Love's roles should be inverted. Simple.
How is it being a homer dipsh!t? Both guys play for the Cavs, no?

It would be incredible if Love were producing with the Cavs the way he has the last few years. Thing is, he isn't. So, we look at things objectively. When I say "we," I mean Cavs fans... not trolls who want to see Irving fail so they can say they're right about him being a bust of a No. 1 pick. That's what you're currently doing -- very transparently, I might add -- and failing as per usual.

I can't believe you haven't meekly given into the fact that Irving is a legitimate star in this league and switched up your approach. You're stubbornly holding out on this one, unlike your 180 on Durant and others.

You know what else is weird? After all your bitching and moaning over the last few years about how the Cavs should be Waiters' team and not Irivng's team, Waiters in OKC has been even worse than he was this year in Cleveland. Funny how he remains one of the most inconsistent players in the league even when the guy who you constantly claimed was responsible for all his issues -- Irving -- is no longer in the picture.

PS: You suck at this.



And, yes... Kyrie has been significantly better than Love. It's not something that is disputable. Love will have a bigger role when his play warrants it. So far, he's exactly where he should be on the pecking order. Considering Kyrie is 22 and getting better every year, that isn't likely to change.

I actually hope it does, because Kyrie is going to continue being really good. If Love surpasses him on the "go-to" chart, it will mean good things for the team. Three or four years from now, Kyrie will be laughably the better player, so now is a really good time for Love to shine.

Easy to forget Kyrie is four years younger than Kevin Love. As fellow Cavs fans, let's hope for the best with both guys. I'm certain you will. *sarcasm*

[funnystuff]

And getting shit on by casual fans
And getting subtweeted by his 30 going on 13 teammate
Agenda detected

[RedBlackAttack]

Agenda detected
It wasn't too difficult to spot.

Wiz fan. Noted dislike for Irving due to his fondness for Wall. Also doesn't seem to like LeBron.

All that is fine and this thread actually opened up a semi-interesting discussion. But, his agenda is pretty obvious.

[poido123]

It wasn't too difficult to spot.

Wiz fan. Noted dislike for Irving due to his fondness for Wall. Also doesn't seem to like LeBron.

All that is fine and this thread actually opened up a semi-interesting discussion. But, his agenda is pretty obvious.


Is it always an agenda, if a person follows a certain team/player that is perceived to be the Foe?

I mean, shouldn't his interpretation be just as valid, based on his explanation and Reasoning?

Sounds to me that posters get salty when someone tells a harsh truth and then strokes the "YOU'RE BIASED" brush over them...

[JT123]

Is it always an agenda, if a person follows a certain team/player that is perceived to be the Foe?

I mean, shouldn't his interpretation be just as valid, based on his explanation and Reasoning?

Sounds to me that posters get salty when someone tells a harsh truth and then strokes the "YOU'RE BIASED" brush over them...
:oldlol: The irony. Whenever someone tells the harsh truth about Rose and calls him out for being soft you are the first one to throw a temper tantrum and call for the mods. :facepalm

[poido123]

:oldlol: The irony. Whenever someone tells the harsh truth about Rose and calls him out for being soft you are the first one to throw a temper tantrum and call for the mods. :facepalm


Truth or people speculating he was being Soft?

I mean, there was no proof to it. Look at him now, powering through every game without restriction.

The decision he made to protect his future and be cautious with 2 Major Knee Injuries, takes a lot of guts. The haters Came for him and he has responded in the best way possible.

We have to give benefit of the doubt to rose, because his situation is very different to most other players. His whole future in basketball was on the line.

[ralph_i_el]

It wasn't too difficult to spot.

Wiz fan. Noted dislike for Irving due to his fondness for Wall. Also doesn't seem to like LeBron.

All that is fine and this thread actually opened up a semi-interesting discussion. But, his agenda is pretty obvious.
Hmmm noted lebron and Irving fan pointing out my agenda....seems like you have an agenda!:roll:

I'm not trying to "hide" how I feel. Usually I'm pretty unbiased IMO.

I like Love and I think he's a great player. I dislike Irving because I think he's really overrated (that being said he has torched Wall a couple times. Wall's only really got him good once).

[RedBlackAttack]

Hmmm noted lebron and Irving fan pointing out my agenda....seems like you have an agenda!:roll:

I'm not trying to "hide" how I feel. Usually I'm pretty unbiased IMO.

I like Love and I think he's a great player. I dislike Irving because I think he's really overrated (that being said he has torched Wall a couple times. Wall's only really got him good once).
I'm a Cavs fan above any allegiances to Irving or any other individual players. I was posting on the old EZ Board as a Cavs fan over a decade ago, before Irving was even in high school. I want Love to be awesome more than anyone on this board, probably.

In your OP, you called James and Irving "clowns." Obviously any Cavs fan worth his salt is going to react to that. James is still arguably the best player in the league and he has hoards of player fans on ISH ready to pounce on stuff like that. Irving takes a lot of unwarranted hate. You say he is overrated... I say he has become underappreciated.

Guy is having far and away the best season of his career on both ends of the floor, he is only 22 and people barely seem to notice him much of the time.

[Purch]

Did anyone actually think that Love could put up those godlike stats on a contender? :wtf:

It was clear he was never as good as his stats, Dosen't mean he's not a great player

[chips93]

lebron did act like a clown with this whole subtweet issue.

[HOoopCityJones]

I used to be one of the main advocate for this, but looking around the league, Love's best bet is to stay a Cav. He goes anywhere else and he's arguably putting himself right back in the situation he was in during the Minne days.

[ralph_i_el]

I'm a Cavs fan above any allegiances to Irving or any other individual players. I was posting on the old EZ Board as a Cavs fan over a decade ago, before Irving was even in high school. I want Love to be awesome more than anyone on this board, probably.

In your OP, you called James and Irving "clowns." Obviously any Cavs fan worth his salt is going to react to that. James is still arguably the best player in the league and he has hoards of player fans on ISH ready to pounce on stuff like that. Irving takes a lot of unwarranted hate. You say he is overrated... I say he has become underappreciated.

Guy is having far and away the best season of his career on both ends of the floor, he is only 22 and people barely seem to notice him much of the time.
You're a good fan and a good poster, and I respect that.

I believe Lebron is the best player in the league right now. I understand what Irving is good at. I wouldn't want to play with either of those guys. Lebron for his off the court fakeness, and Irving for his on the court selfishness.


Did anyone actually think that Love could put up those godlike stats on a contender? :wtf:

It was clear he was never as good as his stats, Doesn't mean he's not a great player

The Twolves have gone from the 9th best ORTG last season to 25th this season (although they've missed Ricky and Pekovic for most of the season).

The wolves never put even an average supporting cast around Love. Obviously Love is a poor defender, but they only started 1 good defender most of the time (Rubio) and were deficient in terms of shooters and scorers in terms of offense. He carried that team with his O.
The Twolves last season lost more close games than any other team, and played the second most OT games (behind the Wiz I believe). In terms of scoring margins last season, they should have been someone between the 9th-11th best record in the league if they had average luck (they actually finished 40-42).

Imagine if you will, Lamarcus Aldridge and Love swapping places last season

Which squad makes the playoffs?:

Rubio (worst shot for a guard in the league)
Kevin Martin (great shooter, absolutely no D, can't dribble)
Corey Brewer ( hasn't shot 30% from 3 in years. No offensive skills besides leaking out for fastbreaks)
LMA
Pekovic (horrible finisher, can't shoot, no rim protection)

OR

Lillard (swagmaster)
Wes Matthews (great shooter, good defender, great post game)
Batum (good shooter, good defender, good passer)
Love
Robin Lopez (some ability to shoot, covers the paint on D, knows how to stay out of the way on O)


Love is a legit offensive centerpiece

[chips93]

The Twolves last season lost more close games than any other team, and played the second most OT games (behind the Wiz I believe). In terms of scoring margins last season, they should have been someone between the 9th-11th best record in the league if they had average luck (they actually finished 40-42).

they had this trend for a good few years that love was there, the last 3 years i believe.

so at some point you have to stop and consider that it might not be a coincidence that they kept falling short in the clutch, and i think love needs to take some flack for that, since he isnt great at creating his own shot.

[ralph_i_el]

they had this trend for a good few years that love was there, the last 3 years i believe.

so at some point you have to stop and consider that it might not be a coincidence that they kept falling short in the clutch, and i think love needs to take some flack for that, since he isnt great at creating his own shot.

He hit a bunch of clutch shots. I agree, they were bad in the clutch consistently, because the game slowed down and they didn't have shooters outside of Love. Love caught lots of double and triple teams late in games because 3 of the other 4 guys on the floor couldn't shoot at all.

[wang4three]

I always felt that Love was an odd fit to the team. The same way Bosh was an odd fit to the Heat with Wade and LeBron. While at least Bosh was athletic to run with them, he was often in that, "what is my role exactly?" position. The Cavs needed a stretch four, but one that was more of a role player than a young and talented star. A David West, Louis Scola type. A guy who can hit the from the outside, or play low when they had to. Then get a big defensive center who could challenge shots and get rebounds, like Tyson Chandler. Now it doesn't have to be those exact players, but players of that type.

I don't know if possible, but it'd be nice to see them trade Love for like Serge Ibaka. I think that swap would make them better.