The Big O, "I Never Saw Wilt Ask For Help Until he Faced Kareem......

[Dro]

:applause:

[Cocaine80s]

Thats why Wilt will always behind Kareem on my all time list



Right at #11 after Lebron

[navy]

Signalling the transition from a weak era. :applause:

[Sarcastic]

How old was Wilt and how many surgeries did he have at that point?

[Insert Wilt blocking sky hook twice gif]

[Jud]

The people who have Wilt over Kareem in their all-time lists need their brains checked.

[LAZERUSS]

:applause:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwHP04TWOps

BTW, in almost ALL of the footage that exists between the two...Wilt was defending Kareem one-on-one.

Now...think about this...

In 27 of their 28 career H2H's, Chamberlain was 34+ and playing on a surgically repaired knee.

Too bad we only had ONE H2H in which Wilt was even close to his peak, and he outscored KAJ, 25-23; outrebounded KAJ, 25-20; outassited KAJ, 3-2; outblockd KAJ 3-2 (including a sky-hook): and outshot KAJ from the field by a 9-14 to 9-21 margin.


October 24, 1969
Chamberlain Edges Lew, Guides Lakers' Victory
LOS ANGELES (AP)-The individual battle might be termed a draw with each man praising the other, but in the end it was the over-all firepower of the Los Angeles Lakers that beat an inexperienced Milwaukee Buck team.

Lew Alcindor. the million dollar rookie of the Bucks, lost his third game since high school Friday night when Wilt Chamberlain, the greatest scorer in NBA history, led the Lakers to a 123-112 victory. Chamberlain scored 25 points and grabbed 25 rebounds but Alcindor. the 7-foot-1 3/4 rookie, made his presence felt with 23 points and 20 rebounds.
It was a game of muscle under the boards.

"I thought he was more physical against me than I was against him." Chamberlain said after the game. "He's very strong, very quick and moves very well with the ball. I don't really think he surprised me at all."

"It was more physical than It was in our first three games," Lew said. "It was the first time I've played against Wilt for real and he taught me a few things."

But Lew taught a few things to Wilt, too. Using his flat hook shot and leaning toward the basket. Alcindor scored 12 first-half points and Chamberlain, facing a man taller than himself for the first time in a while, had a bit of trouble blocking shots.

After Wilt finally did block a couple of Lew's attempts, the Buck rookie began
faking the hook shot. When Wilt went up to block them. Alcindor would
turn the other way and score an easy layup.

But in the second half. Chamberlain scored 18 points and using a balanced attack, with Elgin Baylor. Jerry West and rookie guard Willie McCarter scoring freely, the Lakers broke the game open in the fourth period.

"I thought Wilt played one of his really fine games," said Larry Costello. the Buck rookie coach. "Our offense let us down tonight because they (the Lakers) were sagging on Lew. Somebody had to be open but we weren't hitting the open man."

Milwaukee held a 60-54 halftime lead, but the Lakers rallied for an 11-point margin in the fourth quarter. When the Bucks closed to 105-102, Elgin Baylor got hot and hit for six straight baskets to put the game out of reach. Baylor's 26 points was high for Los Angeles. Flynn Robinson of Milwaukee led all scorers with 33 points.

[jongib369]

Other than having one move that is arguably the most unstoppable and effcient of all time, and team accolades. .. I think it's pretty clear that Kareem is outclassed in every other category.
He's not even the true iron man IMO (http://i45.tinypic.com/2dqttet.jpg). Kareem, Shaq, and Wilt are my top 3...with Jordan and a few other centers trailing close


http://youtu.be/MSTt_TxoFVo


Can't think of anyone who could defend Kareem better than prime Wilt and Thurmond

[RoundMoundOfReb]

"I never saw Wilt ask for help until he played a non 6'6 white center" - Anonymous

[PHILA]

Wilt himself has also said this. Coming off the knee surgery in his mid-30s he did not have the agility to stay with a younger KAJ.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNw0c19DhIU&t=26m45s

[LAZERUSS]

This from a MILWAUKEE newspaper...

[QUOTE][B]Kareem

[bizil]

Wilt himself has also said this. Coming off the knee surgery in his mid-30s he did not have the agility to stay with a younger KAJ.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNw0c19DhIU&t=26m45s

Yep! Kareem was 7'2, very agile, and very skilled. Something the league had NEVER seen before. Wilt at that stage I'm sure needed help. No shame at all! Just like Wilt before him, Kareem was a juggenaut who redefined the center position.

[LAZERUSS]

Yep! Kareem was 7'2, very agile, and very skilled. Something the league had NEVER seen before. Wilt at that stage I'm sure needed help. No shame at all! Just like Wilt before him, Kareem was a juggenaut who redefined the center position.

Again, virtually every account and all of the footage that exists had Chamberlain playing Kareem straight up.

And just in the known three games of their six game series in the '72 WCF's, Wilt blocked 13 of Kareem's shots. And in the six of their 28 career H2H's, Chamberlain blocked 27 of Kareem's shots. We also know that he blocked at least two of his skyhooks in their very first H2H, and there is another known game in which Wilt recorded "numerous" blocked shots.

[CavaliersFTW]

Wilt himself has said this for years

When did you hear big O say it though, did he just say it on tv or something? I love quotes like these I use them for my mixes so let me know if you've got a source

[Ariza4three]

Wilt is such a scrub lol

[CavaliersFTW]

Wilt is such a scrub lol
Kareem thinks he's the greatest ever but what does he know you're right he was a scrub.

[Ariza4three]

Kareem thinks he's the greatest ever but what does he know you're right he was a scrub.
Exactly. I know more about ball than Kareem ever will.

[LAZERUSS]

Here is just an example...

this from a 1972 game, and in which Kareem probably had one of his finest games against Chamberlain...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKkQyNyXICQ

Not ONE time was KAJ doubled.

[ShawkFactory]

Here is just an example...

this from a 1972 game, and in which Kareem probably had one of his finest games against Chamberlain...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKkQyNyXICQ

Not ONE time was KAJ doubled.
Wilt himself claimed that he's asked for help against KAJ...

There's no shame in it.

[LAZERUSS]

Wilt himself claimed that he's asked for help against KAJ...

There's no shame in it.

Give me the footage please.

[inclinerator]

so big o just made that up?

[LAZERUSS]

More

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnQ7TG2ZSig

Not one time...

[Dro]

Wilt himself has said this for years

When did you hear big O say it though, did he just say it on tv or something? I love quotes like these I use them for my mixes so let me know if you've got a source
He said it today during his HOF speech. That was live right?

[stanlove1111]

Here is just an example...

this from a 1972 game, and in which Kareem probably had one of his finest games against Chamberlain...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKkQyNyXICQ

Not ONE time was KAJ doubled.

Hopefully this will help you understand some things..

1- Defenses were really weak back then with very little help. That's why big men put up huge numbers back then, they got the ball wherever they wanted and nobody helped.. I am sure Wilt did ask for help because Wilt,Oscar, and West all said he did. But back then in the weak era of basketball help was a lot different then now decent players get swarmed when they get the ball. There is a lot of Wilt vs Russell games and Russell got no help either despite how we have been told the Celtics swarmed him..Swarmed back then is totally different then swarmed today.


2- Don't always believe what old timers say.

[Demon Lizard]

Makes sense. His only rival prior, Russell, wasn't exactly an offensive threat.

[LAZERUSS]

Hopefully this will help you understand some things..

1- Defenses were really weak back then with very little help. That's why big men put up huge numbers back then, they got the ball wherever they wanted and nobody helped.. I am sure Wilt did ask for help because Wilt,Oscar, and West all said he did. But back then in the weak era of basketball help was a lot different then now decent players get swarmed when they get the ball. There is a lot of Wilt vs Russell games and Russell got no help either despite how we have been told the Celtics swarmed him..Swarmed back then is totally different then swarmed today.


2- Don't always believe what old timers say.


There IS footage of Russell getting PLENTY of help...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wEzEHPZi3w

Very little, IF ANY, exists in the Wilt-Kareem battles.

[CavaliersFTW]

He said it today during his HOF speech. That was live right?
What HOF speech? I didn't know he was making it into any recent HOF's

[LAZERUSS]

Wilt himself has also said this. Coming off the knee surgery in his mid-30s he did not have the agility to stay with a younger KAJ.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNw0c19DhIU&t=26m45s

It MAY have occurred in their first couple of meetings in the 70-71 season, ...not sure...but I doubt it.

In their five regular season H2H's, Kareem shot .438 against Chamberlain, and in the 70-71 WCF's, in which there is virtually no evidence of a "double-team" strategy (although the Bucks probably doubled Wilt since he had no West or Baylor)...Kareem shot .481 (and scored 7 ppg less than his regular season NBA average.)

I watched EVERY game of the '72 WCF's, and Wilt basically played Kareem straight up the entire series.

[LAZERUSS]

Wilt himself has said this for years

When did you hear big O say it though, did he just say it on tv or something? I love quotes like these I use them for my mixes so let me know if you've got a source

You have all the Wilt footage that exists...

please give us the examples of a clear double-team.

BTW, you posted newspaper articles of their '71-72 WCF series battles... I know I have them somewhere, but can you post them again?

[Ariza4three]

Nice summary of Wilt Chamberlain here: http://vocaroo.com/i/s0B2zGl2M7jd

[LAZERUSS]

Nice summary of Wilt Chamberlain here: http://vocaroo.com/i/s0B2zGl2M7jd

Get back to your coloring books please...

which is the only research you have ever done.

Or was it Pokemon or Power Rangers?

[CavaliersFTW]

Nice summary of Wilt Chamberlain here: http://vocaroo.com/i/s0B2zGl2M7jd
:oldlol: jam get a valentine next year okay bud?

[gcvbcat]

why did lew convert to islam?

[Mr Feeny]

why did lew convert to islam?

Now this is extremely relevant to this thread.

[deja vu]

Shows how trash Wilt's level of competition was in the 60s. :lol

[LAZERUSS]

Shows how trash Wilt's level of competition was in the 60s. :lol

Yeah...Kareem, who at age 39, was destroying Hakeem, and badly outplaying him at age 40.

[deja vu]

Yeah...Kareem, who at age 39, was destroying Hakeem, and badly outplaying him at age 40.
I mean, no big man in the 60s aside from Wilt was worth double teaming. They had to wait for Kareem to burst into the scene. Great as Russell was he was no scoring machine.

[LAZERUSS]

I mean, no big man in the 60s aside from Wilt was worth double teaming. They had to wait for Kareem to burst into the scene. Great as Russell was he was no scoring machine.

Walt Bellamy was a huge scorer earlier in his career, and before Willis Reed joined the Knicks. He had season series against both Wilt and Russell of 30+ ppg, and high games against both in the 40's.

[LAZERUSS]

A 39 year old Kareem with 46 points against Hakeem...

http://news.google.ca/newspapers?id=GQ4QAAAAIBAJ&sjid=nYsDAAAAIBAJ&pg=2074,1339920

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5398655&postcount=14


Worthy after the game: "Kareem always plays better against Olajuwon. It's because of all the comparisons. He's been around 17 years but he still has to show the kids that he's the best."

Hakeem after the game: "He played real tough. I tried to go around him and steal the ball but he slipped around me and went to the basket."


Los Angeles Times:

While Akeem Olajuwon spent the whole game trying to steal the ball from Abdul-Jabbar, the Laker center spent the whole game throwing down a breathtaking series of hook shots on his way to a 46-point explosion.

For some reason, Rocket Coach Bill Fitch thinks it is a good idea to let Olajuwon go one-on-one with Abdul-Jabbar. It proved to be the biggest coaching blunder in any Laker game this season.

Abdul-Jabbar made 21 of 30 shots in 37 minutes to reach his high this season. He probably could have scored 50 points (his career high is 55) had he played any longer.

[Psileas]

A 39 year old Kareem with 46 points against Hakeem...

http://news.google.ca/newspapers?id=GQ4QAAAAIBAJ&sjid=nYsDAAAAIBAJ&pg=2074,1339920

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5398655&postcount=14

Btw, how cool would it have been: Kareem, almost at 39, breaking his career scoring record, against Hakeem and Sampson, nonetheless. :bowdown:

[LAZERUSS]

Btw, how cool would it have been: Kareem, almost at 39, breaking his career scoring record, against Hakeem and Sampson, nonetheless. :bowdown:

I guess he didn't score all 46 against Hakeem...

Sampson received his small share of abuse...

http://www.nba.com/video/channels/nba_tv/2013/09/13/20130803-kareem-vs-rockets.nba/

Looks like he was scoring at will against a helpless Hakeem. Likely 35-40 points against him in probably 25-30 minutes.

[RightTwoCensor]

Do people actually read all these articles and watch all these videos?

[LAZERUSS]

Btw, how cool would it have been: Kareem, almost at 39, breaking his career scoring record, against Hakeem and Sampson, nonetheless. :bowdown:

It's too bad that Wilt was well past his prime in their H2H's.

A prime Kareem vs. a prime Chamberlain would have been the greatest one-on-one battle in NBA history.

Shaq against either would have been the next best battle.

[senelcoolidge]

What HOF speech? I didn't know he was making it into any recent HOF's

There was a NBA legends brunch on NBA tv. Oscar said it there. Live tv.

[CavaliersFTW]

There was a NBA legends brunch on NBA tv. Oscar said it there. Live tv.
**** i missed it i hope someone uploads it

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Nice summary of Wilt Chamberlain here: http://vocaroo.com/i/s0B2zGl2M7jd
:roll:

[julizaver]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwHP04TWOps

BTW, in almost ALL of the footage that exists between the two...Wilt was defending Kareem one-on-one.


I also heard it from Wilt himself in a youtube clip, but "Ask for help" or "need a help" is not as if he actually received it ... the coach could decide that Wilt handles Jabbar and no need to assign other teamates to the job.
Did you ever read about Wilt receiving help, or someone helped Wilt in guarding Jabbar ?

I don't know if you have read my posts in http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=366945&page=6:

Using ISH modern logic I proved that prime Kareem is an empty stats loser and choker during 1971/72 season (just copied one of my posts):

I could argue (using "Russell's standard" vs Wilt during the 60s) that in '72 regular season, where Kareem averaged 40 ppg in 5 games vs Wilt (his best stretch) Bucks lost 4 of the games. Oscar Robertson missed few games and Kareem needed to score more. In the game in which he scored 50 pts, Lakers were leading from the start and were in control most of the game, when Bucks closed the gap to two points (in the 4th I think), Kareem missed 6 consecutive shots (Wilt put the clamps on him when it matters most). Not to mentioned that Kareem was outrebounded badly 24 to ...8 . To summarize it - Wilt stopped Kareem in the deciding moments and dominated under the boards, conclusion using "Russell standard" Wilt outplayed Kareem - and Kareem 50 pts game "empty stats".

In the game in which Kareem scored 40 pts, again Wilt dominated under the boards and again Lakers won.
In the first game from that season Kareem scored 39 points on 17 from 33 shooting, but made 13 TOs was outrebounded again badly 26 to 17, Bucks losed again (Milwaukee Journal credited Wilt with "forced the big Buck into a flock of mistakes with his constant harasmant on defense").
The only game where Kareem outplayed Wilt was the only game where Bucks won and it was the famous game, that ended Lakers 33 winning streak.
To summarize it - during his best 5 games stretch vs Wilt using ISH logic Kareem was "empty stats" loser.
Now let's see the playoffs - under ISH logic aplied for Wilt vs Russell, Kareem choked badly as he avaraged 33 pts on 0.456 shooting, a HUUUUGE drop from his reg.season averages vs Wilt (almost 7 ppg) and his Bucks team lost 2 to 4. Not to mentioned that Wilt outplayed Kareem in the decisive moments or Kareem shooting 0.400 in the last 4 games (56/140).

This is how it will looks like if we used Russell criteria vs Wilt. Kareem at his best vs old man Wilt was an "empty stats loser". And his teams losed 8 of the 11 games.

Anyway I am not arguing that Kareem put up great numbers against Wilt. Both players were All-time greats and do what they were supposed to do at that stage of their careers.

[LAZERUSS]

I also heard it from Wilt himself in a youtube clip, but "Ask for help" or "need a help" is not as if he actually received it ... the coach could decide that Wilt handles Jabbar and no need to assign other teamates to the job.
Did you ever read about Wilt receiving help, or someone helped Wilt in guarding Jabbar ?

I don't know if you have read my posts in http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=366945&page=6:

Using ISH modern logic I proved that prime Kareem is an empty stats loser and choker during 1971/72 season (just copied one of my posts):

I could argue (using "Russell's standard" vs Wilt during the 60s) that in '72 regular season, where Kareem averaged 40 ppg in 5 games vs Wilt (his best stretch) Bucks lost 4 of the games. Oscar Robertson missed few games and Kareem needed to score more. In the game in which he scored 50 pts, Lakers were leading from the start and were in control most of the game, when Bucks closed the gap to two points (in the 4th I think), Kareem missed 6 consecutive shots (Wilt put the clamps on him when it matters most). Not to mentioned that Kareem was outrebounded badly 24 to ...8 . To summarize it - Wilt stopped Kareem in the deciding moments and dominated under the boards, conclusion using "Russell standard" Wilt outplayed Kareem - and Kareem 50 pts game "empty stats".

In the game in which Kareem scored 40 pts, again Wilt dominated under the boards and again Lakers won.
In the first game from that season Kareem scored 39 points on 17 from 33 shooting, but made 13 TOs was outrebounded again badly 26 to 17, Bucks losed again (Milwaukee Journal credited Wilt with "forced the big Buck into a flock of mistakes with his constant harasmant on defense").
The only game where Kareem outplayed Wilt was the only game where Bucks won and it was the famous game, that ended Lakers 33 winning streak.
To summarize it - during his best 5 games stretch vs Wilt using ISH logic Kareem was "empty stats" loser.
Now let's see the playoffs - under ISH logic aplied for Wilt vs Russell, Kareem choked badly as he avaraged 33 pts on 0.456 shooting, a HUUUUGE drop from his reg.season averages vs Wilt (almost 7 ppg) and his Bucks team lost 2 to 4. Not to mentioned that Wilt outplayed Kareem in the decisive moments or Kareem shooting 0.400 in the last 4 games (56/140).

This is how it will looks like if we used Russell criteria vs Wilt. Kareem at his best vs old man Wilt was an "empty stats loser". And his teams losed 8 of the 11 games.

Anyway I am not arguing that Kareem put up great numbers against Wilt. Both players were All-time greats and do what they were supposed to do at that stage of their careers.

:applause: :applause: :applause:

The "Wilt Double Standard"...

When Chamberlain averages 27 FGAs against Russell and Boston in the '62 EDF's and his team loses a game seven by two points...well, he was a "selfish", "stats-padding", "choker."

When Kareem averages 32 FGAs against Wilt and the Lakers in the '72 WCF's, and his loses in game six..."he was the focus the Laker defense"...

[Derka]

I only saw Kareem at the end of his career with LA, but got-damn those post moves.

[julizaver]

:applause: :applause: :applause:

The "Wilt Double Standard"...

When Chamberlain averages 27 FGAs against Russell and Boston in the '62 EDF's and his team loses a game seven by two points...well, he was a "selfish", "stats-padding", "choker."

When Kareem averages 32 FGAs against Wilt and the Lakers in the '72 WCF's, and his loses in game six..."he was the focus the Laker defense"...

As I sidenote Kareem as a rookie was outplayed by Nate Thurmond in their first H2H, registering season lows with 15 points and ... 5 rebounds (Nate with 17) in Bucks loss.

But in their third meeting Kareem took the worst beating of his career (exclude his last seasons) in the first half:

"Probably the biggest reason the Bucks bombed out was that Lew Alcindor was thoroughly outplayed by Nate Thurmond, just as he had been in the Warriors' 118-104 victory here Oct.25.
Alcindor missed his first nine shots, and only a flock of meaningless baskets after the outcome was determined enabled him to finish with 21 points. Thanks to Alcindor's late flurry, Thurmond outscored him by only five points. Final rebounding figures were fairly close, 19 for Thurmond, 15 for Alcindor. But a far more accurate gauge of Thurmond's superiority is contained in statistics of the first half, in those first 24 minutes, Thurmond outscored Alcindor, 21-7; outrebounded him, 13-5, and outshot him, .727 to .100. Thurmond made 8 of 11 shots, Alcindor 1 of 10."

Rookie Wilt never got beat by Russell in such a manner in 1959/60 season - as he feasted upon Celtics in the 10 games after the first H2H where we could give the edge to Russell (Wilt with 30 points and 28 rebounds btw) and averaged closed to 40 points and 30 rebounds per game for the season vs Celtics team.

[dunksby]

Goddamn.. didn't know Wilt was this beta. :lol He's going down a few notches in my all-time list until further notice. (I usually rank him top 3)
He is still my #3, but the more I read about him and from the footage I have seen mostly courtesy of CavsFTW, lately I have been considering dropping a few spots. I mean dude has so many choke jobs and clearly played for himself most of his career and was in love with stats and records that he lost perspective.

[bizil]

Again, virtually every account and all of the footage that exists had Chamberlain playing Kareem straight up.

And just in the known three games of their six game series in the '72 WCF's, Wilt blocked 13 of Kareem's shots. And in the six of their 28 career H2H's, Chamberlain blocked 27 of Kareem's shots. We also know that he blocked at least two of his skyhooks in their very first H2H, and there is another known game in which Wilt recorded "numerous" blocked shots.

Calm down! The only reason why I'm saying that is BECAUSE I've heard Wilt say in interviews that Kareem was the first guy he needed help with. That's NOT TO SAY Wilt needed help all the time. Or that he couldn't guard Kareem well. But at times, situations might have dictated Wilt needing help guarding Kareem. If Wilt said that himself, then ENOUGH SAID!

[dunksby]

Calm down! The only reason why I'm saying that is BECAUSE I've heard Wilt say in interviews that Kareem was the first guy he needed help with. That's NOT TO SAY Wilt needed help all the time. Or that he couldn't guard Kareem well. But at times, situations might have dictated Wilt needing help guarding Kareem. If Wilt said that himself, then ENOUGH SAID!
Of course he did, KAJ averaged 31PPG/17RPG on the prime focused on defense and rebounding Wilt. :oldlol:

[Pointguard]

Goddamn.. didn't know Wilt was this beta. :lol He's going down a few notches in my all-time list until further notice. (I usually rank him top 3)
Wilt spent his whole career helping out other players and claiming the paint unlike anybody before or after (Wilt claimed the greatest amount of rebounds, probably has the best blocks per game ever, had a 10 foot radius that players did an absolute adjustment) and then after lower body surgery asked for position help against the guy with the deadliest weapon in the history of the sport and had the highest demand on mobility in the deep post ever.

Hakeem should have asked for help when Kareem was greatly slowed down. It cost them the game and for Hakeem to be severely outplayed by a Kareem that was much slower, much less bounce, and had way less mobility then when he was playing Wilt. He was literally half as productive in rebounds, points, fga, blocks, etc when he was abusing Hakeem for 46 points and on high efficiency vs Wilt's time when Wilt held Kareem to a much lower percentage than Hakeem did. By contrast Duncan right now is not close to being half as productive as he was in his peak. Karl Malone in his last year wasn't half as productive as he was in his production years.

Wilt, in asking for help, was asking that players position themselves so that Kareem wouldn't spin into the lane and cause other problems. Wilt knew the value of the paint strategically. Wilt wasn't as mobile anymore. In the famous video when Wilt blocks Kareem's right hand and left hand hook he was motioning for his player, after the first block, to just stand in a position to not give up the paint. To me KG is among the best defenders ever because he orchestrated other players on how to keep everybody out of the paint. Communicating for team defense is the best line of defense. So no shame on that front.

[Dro]

What HOF speech? I didn't know he was making it into any recent HOF's
My bad, it was during the HOF ceremony the other day. I think he had Magic up there with him and they were just talking about the past with some of the greats...There was actually quotables for days, Willis Reed was up there and others, I just can't remember every body. Oscar was giving Kareem props as he was sitting in the crowd and thats when Oscar made that comment in route to thanking Kareem for his 1st title....

[bizil]

There is a saying that great offense beats great defense. So even if Wilt was playing great defense on Alcindor, Wilt still might have needed some help to slow Cap down. If a team chose to really milk Cap when he was hot, many teams I'm sure doubled him NO MATTER who was guarding him. At that point in Wilt's career, he said that was the case at times. Before Wilt NEVER needed help no matter the situation.

With all due respect to the centers before Kareem, NONE OF THEM could touch him dominating a game other than Wilt. Those two were great scorers, passers, rebounders, and defenders from the center position. And they were both 7'1 or 7'2. They were from different generations, so naturally their absolute primes or peaks wouldn't matchup.

[ArbitraryWater]

Wilt spent his whole career helping out other players and claiming the paint unlike anybody before or after (Wilt claimed the greatest amount of rebounds, probably has the best blocks per game ever, had a 10 foot radius that players did an absolute adjustment) and then after lower body surgery asked for position help against the guy with the deadliest weapon in the history of the sport and had the highest demand on mobility in the deep post ever.

Hakeem should have asked for help when Kareem was greatly slowed down. It cost them the game and for Hakeem to be severely outplayed by a Kareem that was much slower, much less bounce, and had way less mobility then when he was playing Wilt. He was literally half as productive in rebounds, points, fga, blocks, etc when he was abusing Hakeem for 46 points and on high efficiency vs Wilt's time when Wilt held Kareem to a much lower percentage than Hakeem did. By contrast Duncan right now is not close to being half as productive as he was in his peak. Karl Malone in his last year wasn't half as productive as he was in his production years.

Wilt, in asking for help, was asking that players position themselves so that Kareem wouldn't spin into the lane and cause other problems. Wilt knew the value of the paint strategically. Wilt wasn't as mobile anymore. In the famous video when Wilt blocks Kareem's right hand and left hand hook he was motioning for his player, after the first block, to just stand in a position to not give up the paint. To me KG is among the best defenders ever because he orchestrated other players on how to keep everybody out of the paint. Communicating for team defense is the best line of defense. So no shame on that front.

I really thought about putting Wilt below Shaq and firmly removing him from the MJ/Kareem tier, but I think I was too harsh on him.... ShaqAttack brought forth alot of information for untimely (statpadding) scoring by Wilt, and then Wilt has those '68 and '69 chokejobs... but his overall talent, ability, peak, at his best likely the best basketball player ever... grew into some though surroundings, though.

I don't think he will ever pass Kareem/MJ though, as much information I may still receive.. too underwhelming in the playoffs, even in the high scoring years.

You should mention however that Wilt's last year was his 14th season... in regards to the Malone/Duncan last year stuff.

[Dro]

And I didn't mean for this to be Wilt bashing thread. I don't have a dog in this fight at all. I honestly just thought it was a cool quote from the old schoolers who were playing before most of us were even thought of. Its always cool to hear their perception straight from their own mouths. It was more of him giving Kareem credit rather than him trying to down Wilt. He said a lot of nice things about Wilt also.

[Pointguard]

He is still my #3, but the more I read about him and from the footage I have seen mostly courtesy of CavsFTW, lately I have been considering dropping a few spots. I mean dude has so many choke jobs and clearly played for himself most of his career and was in love with stats and records that he lost perspective.
Wilt played 14 years. He could have scored 40 ppg in 9 of those years, probably. But, At least eight years he could be in that range. Wilt cut out the crazy scoring after the fifth year. The first year in general every player sees what they can do in the league so it was only 5 years where you can make a case that he was playing for self (Jordan in his 5th year intentionally went for the 30/8/8) - If you think defense and rebounding is playing for self then you need your head checked, and he was the best at that, arguably, for his last 7 years. That's by far the longest reign for a gifted scorer. You can add up Hakeem's, Shaq's and Kareem's years together and they won't approach Wilt's defensive/rebounding dominating years. Its something that specialist couldn't do (Just to be clear, Russell was well beyond being a specialist).

[Pointguard]

I really thought about putting Wilt below Shaq and firmly removing him from the MJ/Kareem tier, but I think I was too harsh on him.... ShaqAttack brought forth alot of information for untimely (statpadding) scoring by Wilt, and then Wilt has those '68 and '69 chokejobs... but his overall talent, ability, peak, at his best likely the best basketball player ever... grew into some though surroundings, though.

I don't think he will ever pass Kareem/MJ though, as much information I may still receive.. too underwhelming in the playoffs, even in the high scoring years.

You should mention however that Wilt's last year was his 14th season... in regards to the Malone/Duncan last year stuff.
I think Wilt was ahead of his time and coaching wasn't up to par for him. In American Football, coaches don't know how to coach quarterbacks who can run yet. In ten years maybe 15 years, they will know how to coach them. It takes time. Shaq was a complete beast but only a few coaches could maximize him. Kareem was by far the best player in the 70's but it took ten years and the greatest team player ever to stabilize getting the max from him. Kareem, last week, said of Oscar and Magic that it pays to have smart thinking team players that will sacrifice their game.

Red Aurabach was the only coach that was hardcore gung ho about defense back then. Wilt could have won with a coach that was hard on defense. Wilt could have won with a coach that had a balanced offensive attack. Wilt could have won on a passing team. Kareem played on a team that had both and only won when he had all of that along with the sacrificial, smart team players (the Russell model).

Wilt was the most amendable player to ever play center. He could do it all as good as anybody. Kareem wasn't the rebounder or defensive player that Wilt was. He didn't have the energy that Wilt had. At best what can you say in favor of Kareem, "he had that unstoppable shot." But Wilt averaged over 45ppg over a 200 game span. Put Wilt on the Phoenix team of years back and they win it all (Wilt could run like Amare, would be the strongest in the game now). But nobody had that schematic type of play. Put Wilt on that Piston's team and they win it all. But they weren't playing that type of ball back then. Popovich schemed to slow the Phoenix team down when other teams couldn't. It might have been the same with Wilt - opposing coaches knew how to slow the Warrior's roll. I don't really know.

Would teams today convert Wilt to a defensive player if he could score 35ppg while leading the league in rebounding? Coaching was limited back then and the game changed in the playoffs - when the game is more of a chess match. Phil Jackson couldn't adapt to coach Brown's defense and the Laker's looked bad. Great shooting teams might win in the future as coaching gets better. To be honest, they weren't ready for Wilt.

[Pointguard]

You should mention however that Wilt's last year was his 14th season... in regards to the Malone/Duncan last year stuff.
Totally different reality. This was before nutrition and stretching (an import of Kareem's hanging with hippies). And Wilt will likely have played more minutes than Duncan will have in 19 seasons if he hangs around that long. Wilt was proportionately, probably, more of a vet than Duncan is now. Career's weren't long back then. Duncan or Malone also could not lead the league in rebounding, a good ten years before they retire(d) much less their last year. Nor would I expect them to be among the defensive player in the league as well.

And Wilt was greatly affecting Kareem's game around this time.

[Jasper]

Did OScar ever say this when Wilt was alive ? :confusedshrug: :no:

[jlip]

Did OScar ever say this when Wilt was alive ? :confusedshrug: :no:

I don't know, but Wilt said it himself. Asking for help as a 30+ year old player guarding a GOAT level player is nothing to be ashamed of.

[jongib369]

I don't know, but Wilt said it himself. Asking for help as a 30+ year old player guarding a GOAT level player is nothing to be ashamed of.

Exaclty. Would anyone be dissing Kareem asking for help guarding Wilt if their ages were reversed?

Can't imagine seeing Shaq, Kareem, and Wilt go at it

[LAZERUSS]

Regardless of what Wilt supposedly said...

There is ZERO footage of Wilt ever receiving double help. Not only that, there are numerous articles in books and newspapers on their H2H's,a nd I have yet to read ANYTHING suggesting that it EVER happened.

I saw EVERY nationally televised game that existed between the two, and aside from perhaps a rare cutter drawing his defender to Kareem, it never occurred.

There is complete footage of their Jan 20 1972 game, and never even a hint of a double team (where a supporting defender sags off of his man towards KAJ.)

And not only was Chamberlain dramatically reducing KAJ's shooting, he was also completing shutting down the lane on the rest of the Bucks, as well.

[Pointguard]

Regardless of what Wilt supposedly said...

There is ZERO footage of Wilt ever receiving double help. Not only that, there are numerous articles in books and newspapers on their H2H's,a nd I have yet to read ANYTHING suggesting that it EVER happened.

I saw EVERY nationally televised game that existed between the two, and aside from perhaps a rare cutter drawing his defender to Kareem, it never occurred.

There is complete footage of their Jan 20 1972 game, and never even a hint of a double team (where a supporting defender sags off of his man towards KAJ.)

And not only was Chamberlain dramatically reducing KAJ's shooting, he was also completing shutting down the lane on the rest of the Bucks, as well.
So true, and there is a lot of that footage available - at least in the playoffs. It was definitely not part of the strategy and it seemingly didn't need to be. Wilt could have said this in a reflective mood. Its not like the whole Celtic team saying "we" stopped Wilt.

[jlip]

Why do people feel a need to defend Wilt with this statement? There is absolutely no reason to. If Wilt said it, and others heard it, there is truly no shame in it whatsoever. A peak MJ had to be taken off a 31 year old Magic for a while during the '91 Finals because he kept getting into foul trouble and honestly couldn't defend him that well with single coverage. Laz, you're always the first to speak of how the entire Celtics team would gang up on Wilt, because Russell couldn't guard him by himself. That's just fine. GOAT level offensive players are not supposed to be able to be defended effectively with single coverage even by dominant defensive players. That's why they are GOATs.

Again if a 30+ year old Wilt asked for help in guarding one of the top five scorers in NBA history who happened to have been in his "scoring prime", that's not embarrassing. That's called smart, winning basketball. Reading the comments in this thread I'm convinced that "hero ball" is not simply played on the offensive side of the court. It's also played on the defensive side. If asking for help to defend a player was the best option for winning, only a selfish, egotistical player with misplaced priorities would not ask for it.

[ImKobe]

Kareem >> Wilt

what else is new

[bizil]

Regardless of what Wilt supposedly said...

There is ZERO footage of Wilt ever receiving double help. Not only that, there are numerous articles in books and newspapers on their H2H's,a nd I have yet to read ANYTHING suggesting that it EVER happened.

I saw EVERY nationally televised game that existed between the two, and aside from perhaps a rare cutter drawing his defender to Kareem, it never occurred.

There is complete footage of their Jan 20 1972 game, and never even a hint of a double team (where a supporting defender sags off of his man towards KAJ.)

And not only was Chamberlain dramatically reducing KAJ's shooting, he was also completing shutting down the lane on the rest of the Bucks, as well.

Well bottom line is Wilt said that shit! It could have meant an occasional double down by a guard or forward at times once Kareem got the ball. When before, Wilt never would have needed that. But WHENEVER a player says he needed help, it means a double team or having somebody else guard that particular player. So why did Wilt say it? I never thought about it like that until Wilt said it.

[LAZERUSS]

Well bottom line is Wilt said that shit! It could have meant an occasional double down by a guard or forward at times once Kareem got the ball. When before, Wilt never would have needed that. But WHENEVER a player says he needed help, it means a double team or having somebody else guard that particular player. So why did Wilt say it? I never thought about it like that until Wilt said it.

Shaq also claimed that Hakeem outplayed him in the '95 Finals, despite the footage, stats, and one-on-one stats which suggested completely otherwise.

[LAZERUSS]

Why do people feel a need to defend Wilt with this statement? There is absolutely no reason to. If Wilt said it, and others heard it, there is truly no shame in it whatsoever. A peak MJ had to be taken off a 31 year old Magic for a while during the '91 Finals because he kept getting into foul trouble and honestly couldn't defend him that well with single coverage. Laz, you're always the first to speak of how the entire Celtics team would gang up on Wilt, because Russell couldn't guard him by himself. That's just fine. GOAT level offensive players are not supposed to be able to be defended effectively with single coverage even by dominant defensive players. That's why they are GOATs.

Again if a 30+ year old Wilt asked for help in guarding one of the top five scorers in NBA history who happened to have been in his "scoring prime", that's not embarrassing. That's called smart, winning basketball. Reading the comments in this thread I'm convinced that "hero ball" is not simply played on the offensive side of the court. It's also played on the defensive side. If asking for help to defend a player was the best option for winning, only a selfish, egotistical player with misplaced priorities would not ask for it.

Jlip, we not only have multiple Celtic players claiming that they swarmed Chamberlain, we also have footage...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wEzEHPZi3w

I mentioned it before, but the entire Bucks-Lakers game that was played on 1/20/72 is available on youtube.. and just a couple of quick examples...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKkQyNyXICQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnQ7TG2ZSig


But all 8 clips are there.

[bizil]

Shaq also claimed that Hakeem outplayed him in the '95 Finals, despite the footage, stats, and one-on-one stats which suggested completely otherwise.

I think Hakeem did outplay Shaq in the 95 Finals. Aint saying by much BUT Hakeem was the top player in the world in 94 and 95. Hakeem was at his peak while Shaq was a beast but just really starting his prime years.

In terms of Wilt vs. Kareem, Wilt was still the one who said he needed help to guard Kareem. Shaq NEVER said he needed help guarding Dream. So like I said earlier, why did Wilt say that? If anything, I think Wilt was admitting that there was a big man in the NBA who was just as good as him. And at that point in Wilt's career BETTER than him during his last couple of seasons. So for a dominant alpha male to admit that (he NEVER said that about any other player), that's saying a lot. Regardless of what he meant by it.

[PejaTheSerbSnip]

I think Hakeem did outplay Shaq in the 95 Finals. Aint saying by much BUT Hakeem was the top player in the world in 94 and 95. Hakeem was at his peak while Shaq was a beast but just really starting his prime years.

In terms of Wilt vs. Kareem, Wilt was still the one who said he needed help to guard Kareem. Shaq NEVER said he needed help guarding Dream. So like I said earlier, why did Wilt say that? If anything, I think Wilt was admitting that there was a big man in the NBA who was just as good as him. And at that point in Wilt's career BETTER than him during his last couple of seasons. So for a dominant alpha male to admit that (he NEVER said that about any other player), that's saying a lot. Regardless of what he meant by it.

Guy asked for help because it would help his team win games. he doesn't deserve to get criticized for it at all, especially considering his knee was just shot by that point, and he was nearing retirement.

I'll never get this boards obsessions with the word alpha.

Alpha alpha alpha alpha alpha alpha alpha alpha.

Just make plays that are conducive to winning, lol. Basketball is a cerebral game as much as it is a game of will.

[bizil]

Guy asked for help because it would help his team win games. he doesn't deserve to get criticized for it at all, especially considering his knee was just shot by that point, and he was nearing retirement.

I'll never get this boards obsessions with the word alpha.

Alpha alpha alpha alpha alpha alpha alpha alpha.

Just make plays that are conducive to winning, lol. Basketball is a cerebral game as much as it is a game of will.

I'm not obsessed with the world alpha. It's just a term used to describe the most dominant scorers. In baseball u have guys called power hitters or some guys are a five tool player. In football, u have guys known as shutdown corners. U DON'T have to be an alpha dog to be a great player. Bill Russell, Stockton, Rodman, Pippen, etc. prove that.

In terms of Wilt, I'm sure his physical ability was key in why he said that about Kareem. Wilt wasn't talking a dream scenario where both were at their peaks. So I don't hold ANYTHING against Wilt for saying that about Kareem. EVERYBODY should know that this was Wilt at the end going against Kareem. They came from two different generations.

[Straight_Ballin]

Kareem thinks he's the greatest ever but what does he know you're right he was a scrub.

Greatest center ever but Kareem has flat out said that Jordan is the best he's seen.

[Jasper]

I guess I was the only one on ISH that actually saw Wilt and Kareem play in Milwaukee..

Kareem couldn't push Wilt away from the basket.

Wilt could not defend the Sky hook.

Big O saying that seems a bit weird... cause I never saw double teams.

I did see the Lakers try to steal the ball when Kareem dribbled it , but if you want to call that a double team , your with Big O(.)

[eliteballer]

Wilt himself says this in one of his interviews floating around on youtube.

[Roundball_Rock]

Greatest center ever but Kareem has flat out said that Jordan is the best he's seen.

These guys say different things at different times in some cases. He usually says Oscar is the GOAT.

[CavaliersFTW]

These guys say different things at different times in some cases. He usually says Oscar is the GOAT.
And as of late he has consistently stuck with saying Russell and Chamberlain are better than Jordan, and that Jordan further isn't even close to doing what Chamberlain did so I'd be interested to see a citation for him saying Jordan was the best ever, cause I can cite him talking about Russell, Chamberlain, and Oscar as the best "all around" guy ever in recent times.

[julizaver]

I guess I was the only one on ISH that actually saw Wilt and Kareem play in Milwaukee..

Kareem couldn't push Wilt away from the basket.

Wilt could not defend the Sky hook.

Big O saying that seems a bit weird... cause I never saw double teams.

I did see the Lakers try to steal the ball when Kareem dribbled it , but if you want to call that a double team , your with Big O(.)

What was your impresion at the time when they play H2H ? It will be interesting to share with us how Milwaukee fans see it the time and what was their point of view about it ?
When researching their H2Hs I have mainly used the Milwaukee Journal and Milwaukee Sentinel as they contained full boxscores and game stories.

Thank you in advance.

[julizaver]

Totally different reality. This was before nutrition and stretching (an import of Kareem's hanging with hippies). And Wilt will likely have played more minutes than Duncan will have in 19 seasons if he hangs around that long. Wilt was proportionately, probably, more of a vet than Duncan is now. Career's weren't long back then. Duncan or Malone also could not lead the league in rebounding, a good ten years before they retire(d) much less their last year. Nor would I expect them to be among the defensive player in the league as well.

And Wilt was greatly affecting Kareem's game around this time.

And we shall mentioned also the busier schedule, teams playing 3 games in 3 days. To put in perspective the reg.season was some 20 days shorter then now with the same amount of games 82.

[Asukal]

And as of late he has consistently stuck with saying Russell and Chamberlain are better than Jordan, and that Jordan further isn't even close to doing what Chamberlain did so I'd be interested to see a citation for him saying Jordan was the best ever, cause I can cite him talking about Russell, Chamberlain, and Oscar as the best "all around" guy ever in recent times.

Lose many times in the finals? Of course MJ can't do that, only Wilt. Bran is close though. :applause: :bowdown:

[La Frescobaldi]

Wilt himself says this in one of his interviews floating around on youtube.
cavsftw has the little audio clip right at the beginning of this youtube movie https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2U4JSrpO78

those were some battles for sure!!
nobody, ever, not even wilt chamberlain, could stop kareem. nobody ever stopped kareem from getting his 30 15 4 3 or 5 blocks stat line. That just can't be done.

Nor could kareem stop wilt chamberlain. nobody ever could stop wilt from getting his 24 24 8 and 9 or 10 blocks. not kareem, not shaq...... nobody stops either one of them.
the exact reason i place kareem in that highest level by himself with jordan and chamberlain is because he proved himself against wilt chamberlain.
that skyhook was forged in the fires of the early '70s, the greatest era for centers that has ever been seen. Jabbar never had to worry about another center for the rest of his career because he learned how to play NBA ball against the best there ever was.

those two guys are the best centers that i've ever seen and those matchups to this day are some of the best memories i have of basketball. awe inspiring.

[Helix]

Wilt himself says this in one of his interviews floating around on youtube.


That interview was done in the '80's, probably the latter half, and here's exactly what Wilt said pertaining to Kareem...........

And now, when I played against him though..........he presented to me for the first time..........in my career of basketball, a guy that "I" felt.....at least in my state at that time..........that I really needed some help to guard.

That's one helluva complement coming from Wilt, especially considering that when you look at the stats the three years they went head to head, Wilt actually did quite well.

[La Frescobaldi]

Lose many times in the finals? Of course MJ can't do that, only Wilt. Bran is close though. :applause: :bowdown:

imagine this happening to last year's Spurs team:

* Manu breaks his arm against Dallas.
* Leonard goes down with hamstring in the Finals,
* Tony Parker has a hamstring pull and is walking down the court,
* Diaw has deep thigh injury and is hobbled,
* Splitter misses half the Finals with injuries.
The Spurs suit up 9 guys for Game 1. Is Tim Duncan going to beat the Miami Heat in the Finals?

That's what happened to the Sixers in '68.

Go look up how many playoff games Jerry West and Baylor played in '71; while you're at it, look up baylor's finals performances in '69 & '70.

i know you're trolling man, but it got old about 3 years ago.

[LAZERUSS]

That interview was done in the '80's, probably the latter half, and here's exactly what Wilt said pertaining to Kareem...........

And now, when I played against him though..........he presented to me for the first time..........in my career of basketball, a guy that "I" felt.....at least in my state at that time..........that I really needed some help to guard.

That's one helluva complement coming from Wilt, especially considering that when you look at the stats the three years they went head to head, Wilt actually did quite well.

So, there is the real answer.

He felt he might need help.

He never asked. Nor did he ever get any.

[LAZERUSS]

imagine this happening to last year's Spurs team:

* Manu breaks his arm against Dallas.
* Leonard goes down with hamstring in the Finals,
* Tony Parker has a hamstring pull and is walking down the court,
* Diaw has deep thigh injury and is hobbled,
* Splitter misses half the Finals with injuries.
The Spurs suit up 9 guys for Game 1. Is Tim Duncan going to beat the Miami Heat in the Finals?

That's what happened to the Sixers in '68.

Go look up how many playoff games Jerry West and Baylor played in '71; while you're at it, look up baylor's finals performances in '69 & '70.

i know you're trolling man, but it got old about 3 years ago.

Don't forget to add that Duncan, himself, would be nursing multiple injuries, including a muscle tear in his calf. Oh, and even with him noticeably limping, he would play 48 mpg in a full seven game.

[Helix]

cavsftw has the little audio clip right at the beginning of this youtube movie https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2U4JSrpO78

those were some battles for sure!!
nobody, ever, not even wilt chamberlain, could stop kareem. nobody ever stopped kareem from getting his 30 15 4 3 or 5 blocks stat line. That just can't be done.

Nor could kareem stop wilt chamberlain. nobody ever could stop wilt from getting his 24 24 8 and 9 or 10 blocks. not kareem, not shaq...... nobody stops either one of them.
the exact reason i place kareem in that highest level by himself with jordan and chamberlain is because he proved himself against wilt chamberlain.
that skyhook was forged in the fires of the early '70s, the greatest era for centers that has ever been seen. Jabbar never had to worry about another center for the rest of his career because he learned how to play NBA ball against the best there ever was.

those two guys are the best centers that i've ever seen and those matchups to this day are some of the best memories i have of basketball. awe inspiring.


Agreed Fresc, Wilt could not STOP Kareem. He DID do a pretty good job of slowing him down though, and the stats of those three years when the two of them went head to head bear this out. And considering that Wilt was in his mid 30's and Kareem was in his mid 20's, I have to wonder how things would have gone for Kareem if he had faced Wilt when Wilt was in his prime.

[LAZERUSS]

I guess I was the only one on ISH that actually saw Wilt and Kareem play in Milwaukee..

Kareem couldn't push Wilt away from the basket.

Wilt could not defend the Sky hook.

Big O saying that seems a bit weird... cause I never saw double teams.

I did see the Lakers try to steal the ball when Kareem dribbled it , but if you want to call that a double team , your with Big O(.)

I saw every nationally televised game, including all six of the '72 WCF's, and you were correct as far as never seeing any double teams. However, Wilt routinely blocked the sky hook.

In their very first H2H he blocked at least a "couple." In their first H2H in the '72 regular season, he blocked a skyhook near the end of the game to preserve the win (from Rosen's book on the '72 Lakers.) And there is also video footage of him blocking two in a row.

Of course, in the '72 WCF's, he blocked several (he blocked something 15 of Kareem's total shots, and the vast majority were skyhooks.)

Overall, in their 28 career H2H's, I think it is safe to say that probably blocked somewhere around 20+ skyhooks, and probably around 50 total KAJ shots.

[Psileas]

]I saw every nationally televised game, including all six of the '72 WCF's[/B], and you were correct as far as never seeing any double teams. However, Wilt routinely blocked the sky hook.

In their very first H2H he blocked at least a "couple." In their first H2H in the '72 regular season, he blocked a skyhook near the end of the game to preserve the win (from Rosen's book on the '72 Lakers.) And there is also video footage of him blocking two in a row.

Of course, in the '72 WCF's, he blocked several (he blocked something 15 of Kareem's total shots, and the vast majority were skyhooks.)

Overall, in their 28 career H2H's, I think it is safe to say that probably blocked somewhere around 20+ skyhooks, and probably around 50 total KAJ shots.

OK, I know this diverges a bit, towards the "available material back then", but I wonder...when was the last time the TV showed again any of those games that nowadays appear to be unavailable? Did they ever show the games again or was it like "once is enough"?

[LAZERUSS]

OK, I know this diverges a bit, towards the "available material back then", but I wonder...when was the last time the TV showed again any of those games that nowadays appear to be unavailable? Did they ever show the games again or was it like "once is enough"?

I wish I could remember (that was over 40 years ago), but I don't recall seeing a complete replay after that.

What was interesting was that, interest had grown so much since the late 60's, by that 1972 season, the NBA was televising the entire WCF's nationally and in prime time.

After that season, it started a slow decline, and I remember having to watch many of the '80 playoff games on tape delay, including the Finals (during the week...the weekend games were televised live.)

It would sure be nice if any of the '72 WCF's game were to suddenly surface. IMHO, Wilt's game six would be considered one of the greatest ever. He took over the game in the 4th quarter(as I'm sure you are aware.) That and his game five of the Finals were two of his most memorable games.

[LAZERUSS]

I don't have much time now, but in Charley Rosen's book on the '72 Lakers, he extensively covers all eleven H2H games between the Bucks and Lakers (five in the regular season, and their six post-season H2Hs.) He labels them as "showdowns" (showdown #1, #2, etc.)

Interesting stuff...especially regarding Wilt "getting help"...

[LAZERUSS]

Charley Rosen wrote a book based on the '71-72 Lakers (The Pivotal Season), and in it he covered their entire season, including the playoffs. Furthermore, he extensively covered their 11 H2H games with the defending champion Bucks (5 regular season, and six WCF's H2H's.)

There is very little mention of "double-teams", or "help" in the personal Kareem-Wilt matchups, either.

On page 179, and going into their "Third Showdown" (their third H2H that season)...


"Now, about Abdul-Jabbar...the easiest option was to continue letting Chamberlain defend him one-on-one. Let Kareem bust his ass to score his thirty (or forty, or more) points...eventually the constant banging with the heavier, stronger Chamberlain would tire him and reduce his effectiveness in the endgame. The tactic would also permit Wilt's teammates to stay home on their own defensive assignments and thereby reduce the number of open shots they always got whenever Abdul-Jabbar was double-teamed. Sharman did have plans to selectively double down on him (ignoring the Bucks' weakest outside shooters...Lucius Allen and Wally Jones), but he'd keep this particular weapon holstered until the post-season."

That last sentence is important from the standpoint that, it was never mentioned again, even in their six playoff H2H's. In fact, it was repeatedly brought up how Wilt was moving Kareem further away from his normal positioning, and inevitably, Kareem started missing more-and-more frequently as the WCF's went on. More on that in a moment.

And how about this, from page 211, and going into their "Fifth Showdown" (their final regular season H2H)...


"With Abdul-Jabbar whirling in hooks from twelve-to-fifteen-foot range, the Bucks jumped to a quick 12-2 lead. Sharman called a time-out and asked Chamberlain a variety of leading questions until Wilt came up with the right answer" Give me the ball, let me turn on Abdul-Jabbar and get him into foul trouble.

"What a great idea, Wilt!"

And it was. Wilt drew three fouls on Kareem in the next four minutes, forcing the Bucks to double-team Chamberlain every time he made a move to the basket. This, in turn, opened up jumpers for West, Goodrich, and McMillian."

The Lakers whipped the defending champions, 4-1, in their five regular season H2H's, and never resorted to "helping" Wilt defend Kareem.

On page 233, and just before their game one of the WCF's, ...


"Pete Newell also expected Chamberlain to be a little more offensive-minded during the series. "Every time Wilt turns to the basket, whether he scores, or not, Abdul-Jabbar has to exert quite a bit of physical pressure to try and stop him. Don't be surprised if he wears down by the fourth quarter.""

Page 234...and going into that game one of the WCF's...


"Sharman felt that there was no way that Wilt would bail out against Abdul-Jabbar."


With the series tied a game apiece, and going back to Milwaukee for game three, Chamberlain took over the series...

Page 239...


"The biggest story was Chamberlain's defense against Abdul-Jabbar. Of Chamberlain's 10 blocked shots, five came against his opposite number."

"Jabbar scored 33 points, but missed 22 shots."

Page 240...



"When asked to explain why Chamberlain had blocked so many of his shots, Abdul-Jabbar said, "I just took stupid shots.""

Milwaukee blew the Lakers out in game four to tie the series, but once again Kareem mis-fired at an alarming rate. In game's three and four he had shot 15-37 and 14-33 from the field.

Going into game five, and on page 242...


"Game five was do-or-die, and Sharman couldn't believe his guys were ready to give up the ghost. There was only one pertinent question: Who was going to step and turn the series around?

It had to be Chamberlain. Nobody else had either the physical or psychic power to resuscitate the entire team. So Sharman cornered Chamberlain during the game-day shootaround to say to this: "Wilt, what do you have to concentrate on to get us over the hump?"

And the big man was quick to return the correct answer: "Defense.""


"After a tight first quarter (24-24), the Lakers simply ran the Bucks into the ground. Chamberlain was rightly acclaimed as the hero, holding Jabbar to 13 field goals in 33 attempts, blocking several of his shots, outrebounding the Bucks' star, 26-16, and even making all eight of his free throws."

The Lakers annihilated Milwaukee in that game five, 115-90, to take a 3-2 series lead, heading back to Milwaukee.


"Now the media did an astonishing about face. Even the Milwaukee newspapers suddenly declared that Abdul-Jabbar seemed to be intimidated by Chamberlain.

Never mind that the next game would be in Milwaukee. Wilt the Stilt was proof that nice guys sometimes finish first."


Page 244...


"Chamberlain backed up his locker room exhortation by taking the ball to Abdul-Jabbar, prohibiting the Bucks from shooting layups, and matching Jabbar rebound-for-rebound.

With West continuing to misfire in the third quarter, Milwaukee slowly assumed control of the game. Only ten minutes remained in the game and the Bucks' 85-75 lead seemed insurmountable.

Then Chamberlain single-handedly revived his team. He blocked a layup attempt by Lucius Allen, then dived to the floor as he batted the loose ball to West.

"Wilt hit the floor with a thunderous crash," said K.C. Jones. "It was like the whole world was collapsing."

On the next possesion, West missed still another jumper, but Chamberlain was there to capture the rebound and violently slam the ball thru the ring.

"Wilt's extra hustle is what got us all charged up," says Cleamons. "After that, Wilt and Jerry took over the game."

In the last nine minutes, Chamberlain contributed two more dunks, a tip-in, three free throws, and six rebounds. West suddenly found his stroke and scored 12 points in the final six minutes of play.

While the Lakers were surging, Adbul-Jabbar was wilting. He tallied only five points in the concluding ten minutes of the game."

Continued...

[LAZERUSS]

Continuing...

In Robert Cherry's autobiography of Wilt (Larger than Life)...

page 264...


"Down by 10 points early in the fourth quarter, L.A. roared back to win game 6...and the series... 104-100, mostly as the result of an inspired effort by Wilt. He had never played harder in his life, according to Jack Kiser, who had seen him play hundreds of times. "He was everywhere, doing everything, " Kiser wrote. He played the entire game (Wilt and Jabbar were the only two players to do so), scored 22 points, garnered 24 rebounds, and blocked nine shots (five of them Jabbar's.) As West observed, he wouldn't let the Lakers lose.

In one sequence he caught up with Bobby Dandridge and blocked Dandridge's shot; next he wrestled offensive rebounds away from Jabbar and converted them into points; at one point he stole th ball from Jabbar and dunked it at the other end. And he beat Jabbar down the floor in a couple of key sequences late in the game, when Jabbar, the younger man, tired. "It was the greatest ball-bustin performance that I have ever seen," West said.

For the series, Wilt held Kareem, who had shot .574 against the NBA during the regular season, to a .457 FG%. Furthermore, over the course of the last four pivotal games of that series, he had reduced Kareem to a .414 FG%.

Even the MILWAUKEE Press lauded Wilt's performance.

[QUOTE][B]Kareem

[Dro]

Great stuff with the book excerpts...Thanks...

[LAZERUSS]

Now, I have provided footage of a prime Russell vs Wilt (and with Russell getting a TON of help)...

and footage of a prime Kareem vs a 35 year old Wilt (with Chamberlain getting ZERO help)...

now, how about a prime Kareem vs prime Walton...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=coHMKlx7Was&playnext=1&videos=YqP06ya0k4w

Oh, and how aboyut a 39 year old Kareem vs a 24 year old Hakeem?

http://www.nba.com/video/channels/nba_tv/2013/09/13/20130803-kareem-vs-rockets.nba/