How good was prime Amare?

[Roundball_Rock]

With Amare back in the news and presumably regaining a degree of relevance by leaving the decrepit Knicks for a contender it is striking how far Amare has fallen. He is at best a 6th man who can give you great offense for 20-25 minutes a game. He was a legitimate MVP contender at this time 4 years and was probably the best player on a team that gave the eventual champs a tough series in the WCF 5 years ago. It is a shame injuries have diminished him so much but I am glad he will get a chance to contribute on a contender at this stage in his career.

Looking back for a moment, though, how good to you think he was in his prime? I remember when I joined ISH the general view was that Bosh and P. Gasol were both better than Amare. There was even a period during the 2010 season where Lakers Nation swore Bynum>Amare. :oldlol: I always viewed Amare as superior to Bosh, Gasol because Amare at his best had a great the others did not have at their best. Amare was capable of being flat out dominant. He had the great series against the Spurs where he put up 37/10 on 55% in the WCF in 05' and averaged 30/11 on 54% for the 15 game playoff run that year. In the second half of 2008, subsequent to the Shaq trade, Amare tore up the league. He averaged 29/9 on 59% after the all-star break/trade. Unfortunately, the Suns ran into their bane the Spurs and Duncan's Game 1 heart breaking 3 and Amare's run was forgotten. In late 2010 he was regarding by many as the MVP of the second half of the season. He posted 27/10 on 56%. That was a year where the Suns, who missed the playoffs the previous year and lost Shaq in the offseason, were expected to be a mediocre team. They started the year off as the hottest team in the league over the first 20 games or so of the season--and then hit a wall, looking like a fluke. Amare's strong second half stabilized things and allowed Phoenix to finish with 54 wins and reach the WCF. He then briefly restored the Knicks to respectability in 2011. Most people had him as top 5 in the MVP race, held down only by the Knicks average record, in the first half of the year before the Carmelo trade, which ultimately spelled the end of Amare's time as an elite player. He instantly became the #2 option that year and then suffered a succession of injuries in the following years that led us to this point.

Prime Amare was amazing. He was the most exciting player in the league, in my view. He was criticized for lacking a back to the basket game and (rightfully) for his poor defense but he was lethal with his face up game, he was extremely explosive and a strong finisher who also possessed a reliable mid-range jumper. He never fulfilled all his potential but he was one of a handful of players in the league capable of legitimate dominance, a player who could threaten to singlehandedly win a series for you. Not many players reach that level. Amare did and was underrated then. Now he is gone as an elite player. Hopefully he can show some flashes of the old Amare now and then in the playoffs on a contender this year and in the next couple of years.

[TheMarkMadsen]

he had moments where for long stretches of season i would have put him top 5.

the beginning of 11 he was easily top 5

[RightTwoCensor]

Remember that stretch Blake was on when CP3 was out? Now imagine that for a career.

[navy]

Real good. Top 10 player, I dont think he was top 5. Underrated because he has no rings.

[RightTwoCensor]

http://espn.go.com/blog/los-angeles/clippers/post/_/id/5908/griffin-elevating-game-to-new-levels


Griffin has scored more than 25 points in 14 of his last 16 games, averaging 28.3 points, which is the fourth-best average in the NBA in that span. Going up against LeBron James on Wednesday, Griffin became the only player this season with a stat line of at least 43 points, 15 rebounds and six assists.

"This stretch has been what has taken him to another level," Crawford said. "He's been incredible. To see a young guy like that work so hard. I didn't know that about him before I came here, but he's our hardest worker. He wants to get better, he wants to be great. He wants to be an all-time great."

Since Dec. 16, Griffin has averaged 26.6 points, 9.3 rebounds and 3.9 assists while hitting 53.9 percent of his shots from the field and 71.9 percent from the free-throw line. Without Paul, the Clippers have not only remained one of the top four seeds in the West but have increased their winning percentage and decreased the gap between them and the top three teams in the conference.

[Roundball_Rock]

Mark and Navy I agree with both of you. I don't think he ever finished a season as a top 10 player but he definitely was a top 5 player for long periods of several years. I never understood why he could not consistently perform that way for a full season, although I suppose he did so for the equivalent of a season during the second half of 2010 and first half of 2011.

[SCdac]

Guy was a beast athletically and scored mostly around the rim, but I liked that you could at least run a pick-and-pop play for him. Has a decent jumper. 05 Amare was awesome

[L.Kizzle]

Probably better than Elgin Baylor ...

[rezznor]

great offensive player, poor defensive 4

[TheMarkMadsen]

Mark and Navy I agree with both of you. I don't think he ever finished a season as a top 10 player but he definitely was a top 5 player for long periods of several years. I never understood why he could not consistently perform that way for a full season, although I suppose he did so for the equivalent of a season during the second half of 2010 and first half of 2011.

he probrably was top 5 in 05 but at the time I wouldn't have put him top 5 since was so new in the league, looking back though he definitely has a case, especially with Kobe not having that great of a season.

he also was really impressive in 2010, had an amazing second half of the season

[navy]

Mark and Navy I agree with both of you. I don't think he ever finished a season as a top 10 player but he definitely was a top 5 player for long periods of several years. I never understood why he could not consistently perform that way for a full season, although I suppose he did so for the equivalent of a season during the second half of 2010 and first half of 2011.
That's a clear contradiction to be honest. NBA is all about consistency seeing as how good these players even scrubs can be for stretches.

Funny thing is, if you watch Amare now you can still see the remnants of how good he was. Which is why I hope he goes to a team that will put him to good use.

[Roundball_Rock]

That's a clear contradiction to be honest. NBA is all about consistency seeing as how good these players even scrubs can be for stretches.

It is not a contradiction. A player can play at a top 5 level for half a season and for the entire season be top 10 or, in theory, say, top 20 depending on his level of play the rest of the season. Amare's base level of play in seasons like 2010 and 2008 was still at a top 10 level. He just had a spike where he was arguably top 3-4 for long periods. He never had a full 82 game season at that level imo.

A key difference is we are not talking about Amare getting hot for 10 games. We are talking about him playing at that level for 30, 40, 50 games in 05', 08', 10', 11'.

[supernova5912]

People tend to underrate Amare because of the fact he wasn't good defensively. However, people forget that he averaged 37.0 points and 9.8 rebounds with a 61.1 TS% in the playoffs against prime Duncan. Then, he averaged 26.4 points and 10.6 rebounds with a 58.3 TS% in the playoffs against Duncan again in 2007. He was legitimately one of the best power forwards in his prime. He was also better than both Bosh and Gasol (at least offensively). Consider that at his peak, he was averaging 25.2 points, 9.1 rebounds, and 2.1 blocks (in 33.9 minutes) with a 65.6 TS%, 27.6 PER, and .262 winshares per 48, not to mention an offensive rating of 124 and defensive rating of 104.

[ArbitraryWater]

You contradict yourself alot in here..

anyway, top 10 from 2005-2011.

[Roundball_Rock]

You contradict yourself alot in here..


Such as where?


People tend to underrate Amare because of the fact he wasn't good defensively. However, people forget that he averaged 37.0 points and 9.8 rebounds with a 61.1 TS% in the playoffs against prime Duncan. Then, he averaged 26.4 points and 10.6 rebounds with a 58.3 TS% in the playoffs against Duncan again in 2007. He was legitimately one of the best power forwards in his prime. He was also better than both Bosh and Gasol (at least offensively). Consider that at his peak, he was averaging 25.2 points, 9.1 rebounds, and 2.1 blocks (in 33.9 minutes) with a 65.6 TS%, 27.6 PER, and .262 winshares per 48, not to mention an offensive rating of 124 and defensive rating of 104.

:applause:

[PacerRaptor]

Hiss defense was horrible though. You can't really blame him though, he came out of high school straight in D'Antoni's system

[Crown&Coke]

In Phx he was pretty unstoppable. He ate up the Spurs countless times in the playoffs

But that first year in NYK he was playing defense and being a leader. He was ballin outta control that first year. Legit MVP candidate

[Prime_Shaq]

2005-2011 he was one of the best offensive big men but suffered defensively

[greatest-ever]

A lot better than people remember. He was my favorite player at one point.

A lot of people falsely believe that Griffin and Aldridge are better than Prime Amare was but to me that show they either didn't watch him or simply forget how good he was.

[The Sting]

Like a A on Offense and a D on defense. The guy was a lazy rebounder also. His type of play never would've won a championship.

[inclinerator]

unstoppable on offense, sht on defense

[navy]

Like a A on Offense and a D on defense. The guy was a lazy rebounder also. His type of play never would've won a championship.
Yall swear that there werent some highly questionable western conference series in his phoenix days. :coleman:

[LiLharvard]

Is it any coincidence Amare's prime years coincided Nash's Back 2 back MVP years?

[navy]

Is it any coincidence Amare's prime years coincided Nash's Back 2 back MVP years?
It helped, but he showed he was a good player without Nash before injuries.

[LiLharvard]

Final season pre-Nash (2003-2004): 20.6 points per game on 47.5 percent shooting with 3.2 turnovers per game.

First season with Nash (2004-2005): 26 points per game on 55.9 percent shooting with 2.4 turnovers per game.

[supernova5912]

Is it any coincidence Amare's prime years coincided Nash's Back 2 back MVP years?
Stoudemire was injured for all but three games in 2005-06.

[LiLharvard]

Stoudemire was injured for all but three games in 2005-06.


Oh raaally? I was pointing towards 2006-7 and not specifically mvp honours of back to back years, one would agree that nash's best years were 2006 to 2007?

[Roundball_Rock]

It helped, but he showed he was a good player without Nash before injuries.

Plus without Nash in his first season in New York before injuries diminished him. Before the Carmelo trade Amare was a legitimate MVP candidate.

[plowking]

I wanted him on the Heat when the big 3 came together, but in the end I'm glad we didn't. So based on that, I'd say he was comfortably better than Bosh in my eyes, but he broke down after a season.

In his prime, a beast. I'd say slightly better or similar level to current Griffin.

[Lebron23]

One of the most exciting players during his prime. A great offensive player, but a bad defensive player. He'll be a first ballot hall of famer. Glad he won a championship in Israel.

[Roundball_Rock]

One of the most exciting players during his prime. A great offensive player, but a bad defensive player. He'll be a first ballot hall of famer. Glad he won a championship in Israel.

HOF player IMO but first ballot unlikely due to longevity issues.

[dankok8]

He was a fantastic player. Unstoppable offensively with his mix of athleticism, first step, and midrange shot. He was one of my favorite players in the mid 2000's. I'll never forget when he dropped 37 ppg vs Tim Duncan in the playoffs.

[tpols]

melo killed his game.

shouldve stuck with nash.

[Doranku]

He was a fantastic player. Unstoppable offensively with his mix of athleticism, first step, and midrange shot. He was one of my favorite players in the mid 2000's. I'll never forget when he dropped 37 ppg vs Tim Duncan in the playoffs.


Yup, a prime Tim Duncan never really had an answer for Amare defensively. That should tell you how good he was.

[Euroleague]

Prime Amare was pretty good, but there is a big difference between prime Amare and peak Amare. Peak Amare was an absolute freak. But his peak was extremely short.

[BigShotBob]

No one talks about how automatic he was from mid range either. Great touch.

[999Guy]

You’d never build a good offense around him. Raw fundamentals and no IQ out there. He’s worse than Anthony Davis as far as that goes. And Davis is another overrated play finisher that has always underachieved.

But Amare was far, far worse than Davis(a guy who himself barely has this elite impact on wining) because he was a bottom level defender.

He had some seasons where he ramped up his usefulness offensively at the 5, and Phoenix could not stop a thing with him at that spot. Amare was a stat padder who was ahead of his time stylistically.

He’d be no better than his bastard son John Collins today.

Gets way too much credit for playing next to the goat creator.

[tpols]

You’d never build a good offense around him. Raw fundamentals and no IQ out there. He’s worse than Anthony Davis as far as that goes. And Davis is another overrated play finisher that has always underachieved.

But Amare was far, far worse than Davis(a guy who himself barely has this elite impact on wining) because he was a bottom level defender.

He had some seasons where he ramped up his usefulness offensively at the 5, and Phoenix could not stop a thing with him at that spot. Amare was a stat padder who was ahead of his time stylistically.

He’d be no better than his bastard son John Collins today.

Gets way too much credit for playing next to the goat creator.

He was a top 5 MVP candidate in NY before melo came over.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqQ8BbkIb_4

I remember him just icing teams in crunchtime game after game with his midrange face up game.

Dantoni is the main reason he wasnt a great defender, they literally didnt even practice defense.

[999Guy]

He was a top 5 MVP candidate in NY before melo came over.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqQ8BbkIb_4

I remember him just icing teams in crunchtime game after game with his midrange face up game.

Dantoni is the main reason he wasnt a great defender, they literally didnt even practice defense.
Yeah well NY is known for padding guys attention and rep quite a bit. Chandler somehow sneaked a DPOY out of that city and Melo singlehandedly stopped LeBron from a unanimous MVP in 2013....over some much better guys.

If you were good, NY’s coverage would make you seem great.

[tpols]

Yeah well NY is known for padding guys attention and rep quite a bit. Chandler somehow sneaked a DPOY out of that city and Melo singlehandedly stopped LeBron from a unanimous MVP in 2013....over some much better guys.

If you were good, NY’s coverage would make you seem great.

nah i watched those games on MSG and he was just flat out great.

one of the most impressive things was his shotblocking with the knicks.

[Norcaliblunt]

One of the best finishers of all time. Had a super wet mid range J. Good free throw shooter. Quick first step.

Terrible defender. Mediocre rebounder for his size and athleticism. Horrible passer. Not a guy who could iso and make a play with any sort of efficiency and consistency.

Suns Fcked up not resigning him. 2011 should’ve been Phoenix’s year not Dallas’s.

[Whoah10115]

At his best I don't think his defense was as bad people say. But it wasn't good.

And at some points it was hilarious. I've never seen someone defend on the perimeter and just refuse to bend his knees.

Terrific player tho. As others have said, had a good midrange. Mostly made up for the lack of a post game.

Would have been great next to someone like Garnett. Or maybe just a mobile post defender. Marion was a great defender, Diaw was good, Bell was great. Would have made a big difference.

[Roundball_Rock]

He was a fantastic player. Unstoppable offensively with his mix of athleticism, first step, and midrange shot. He was one of my favorite players in the mid 2000's. I'll never forget when he dropped 37 ppg vs Tim Duncan in the playoffs.

That was a great series by Amare! :bowdown:

[Wally450]

melo killed his game.

shouldve stuck with nash.

I completely agree with this. The Knicks should've never traded for Melo. The team they had around Amare in 2010-2011 was good enough with Gallinari, Wilson Chandler, Felton. All those guys were shipped out to bring in Melo. :facepalm

[RogueBorg]

Dantoni is the main reason he wasnt a great defender, they literally didnt even practice defense.

Nothing's changed with D'Antoni. I'd be very surprised if he ever wins a championship.

[baudkarma]

Amare could have been an ATG if he had been willing to work harder. He never rehabbed his knee injury properly, which is why he was never the same afterwards while guys like Steve Nash flourished after microfracture surgery. He also never really developed his game. Most players try to develop their games as they get older, add a new move or shot or defensive wrinkle. Amare never did. His game stayed the same through most of his career.