Ben Wallace: Most underrated player of all time?

[RoundMoundOfReb]

- 4 time DPOY, one of the greatest if not the greatest defensive players of all time.

- Best player on title team

- I would take prime Ben Wallace over any center playing right now, comfortably.

If he was as good offensively as he was defensively and as bad defensively as he was offensively, I feel like he would be rated MUCH higher. Heck, some people don't even think he's a HoFer....meanwhile Carmelo Anthony (worse player) types are HOF locks...thoughts?

If you disagree, who do you think is the most underrated and why?

[andremiller07]

Andre Miller

[Prime_Shaq]

Could hold his own against peak Shaq :applause:

[UK2K]

Guy became the face of the league, and he could barely hit a lay up.

[T_L_P]

Andre Miller

Eh, good player on a bad team, maybe the #2 on a title team at his absolute peak (and I'd still be skeptical).

I'm a huge Miller fan too (PGs who can post up >), but he's not really in the Wallace class in terms of impact, and you rarely see Big Ben's name brought up at all.

It's either him or Moncrief (how he's not in the HoF is a joke). Top 5-6 defensive player ever imo along with Russell, Hakeem, Duncan, Garnett and Robinson.

[KNOW1EDGE]

I think Ben Wallace is rated just fine.
An absolutely great defensive player and an absolutely terrible offensive player.

He's like a Dennis Rodman of the 2000s

[T_L_P]

I think Ben Wallace is rated just fine.
An absolutely great defensive player and an absolutely terrible offensive player.

Pretty much DeAndre Jordan but better.

A top 5-10 defensive player ever cannot be compared to someone who's barely a top 10 defensive player right now. :confusedshrug:

[Al Thornton]

I think Ben Wallace is rated just fine.
An absolutely great defensive player and an absolutely terrible offensive player.

He's like a Dennis Rodman of the 2000s

neither dennis or deandre play anything like him

u are extremely dumb

[KNOW1EDGE]

A top 5-10 defensive player ever cannot be compared to someone who's barely a top 10 defensive player right now. :confusedshrug:

See my edit.

But they are def comparable.

Both centers.
Both a terrible liability on offense.
Both great on defense. (Although Ben was way better)

I loved watching Ben Wallace play, but I would take a handful of current big men over Ben Wallace.

[KNOW1EDGE]

neither dennis or deandre play anything like him

u are extremely dumb


Your rather dull or delusional if you can't see the similaritites in their games.

[JimmyMcAdocious]

Ben Wallace wasn't really a liability on offense. Great offensive rebounder and super underrated passer. Didn't make many mistakes. Sure you would never run your offense through him and he couldn't shoot fts, but you never had to run your offense through him and he rarely went to the line. Peak FTA was 4.1, good enough for 59th in the NBA that year. Tied with 36 year old Reggie Miller and backup Sonics PG, Antonio Daniels.

When I think of liability, I think net negative and Ben wasn't that on offense. While he was on the Pistons, at least.

I actually think his defense was a little bit overrated. Better weakside than anything else, although still a great overall defender. Just wouldn't put him with someone like Russell or Hakeem. Not entirely convinced he was much better than peak Dwight as a defender.

[bigkingsfan]

He was basically done when he left Detroit.

[Reggie43]

Closer to being overrated rather than under. He played on teams that suited his style of play and covered up his weaknesses. Despite the accolades he was obviously behind the likes of olajuwon, robinson, deke, mourning, ewing, duncan and others defensively because of his height (6'7")

[RoseCity07]

I'll remember him for blocking prime Shaq on a dunk. He also made Kobe cry as Detroit beat the sh*t out of the Kobe Shaq Lakers in the Finals.

[TAZORAC]

- 4 time DPOY, one of the greatest if not the greatest defensive players of all time.

- Best player on title team

- I would take prime Ben Wallace over any center playing right now, comfortably.

If he was as good offensively as he was defensively and as bad defensively as he was offensively, I feel like he would be rated MUCH higher. Heck, some people don't even think he's a HoFer....meanwhile Carmelo Anthony (worse player) types are HOF locks...thoughts?

If you disagree, who do you think is the most underrated and why?

He wasn't the best player on the team, and prime Ben Wallace isn't anywhere as good as Anthony Davis, Howard, Lopez, Aldridge, Cousins.

[T_L_P]

Lopez


http://cdn1.sbnation.com/uploads/chorus_image/image/2862089/wtfclips.0_standard_709.0.gif

[Harison]

I would say its DRob, he gets no credit whatsoever, and one series vs Hakeem is like the only thing people remember.

In reality, DRob was playing on Dream level more often than not, in the Golden era against the toughest competition ever, was better defender than Timmy as well.

Imagine DRob in current NBA, he would feast on current sorry excuse for centers, and not only get DPOY every year, but also would be a perennial MVP candidate.

[necya]

I would say its DRob, he gets no credit whatsoever, and one series vs Hakeem is like the only thing people remember.

In reality, DRob was playing on Dream level more often than not, in the Golden era against the toughest competition ever, was better defender than Timmy as well.

Imagine DRob in current NBA, he would feast on current sorry excuse for centers, and not only get DPOY every year, but also would be a perennial MVP candidate.

exactly, Ben Wallace is actually overrated on this forum.
He had 2-3 good seasons cause he played under a great coach with a smart organisation, in a complete team who was determined and played all together for some years. THAT was the key of the success of those Pistons, cohesion.
Who was Ben Wallace before and after ? an athletic silhouette who had a lot of energy for sure, but an all time great defensive player ? hell no.

The pistons played great D as a block, people acting like Wallace was the beast waiting under the basket...no, everyone made the shots, penetrations difficult -Billups, Hamilton, Prince, Sheed- but it is not in the ****ing stats so the credit only goes to Wallace.

Guards had generally a field day when they played the Spurs of David Robinson. Under poor coaching, how it is not easy to beat the harassing defense of Avery Johnson and Vinny Del negro ? Yet, Robinson made his team looking like a contender.
Olajuwon and Robinson campaign in 94 and 95 were exceptional. Spending that energy on the defensive hand and be the man to drop every night 25-30pts was incredible. People really think that Shaq could have put 30 per game on 60% if he had to spend the same energy as Olajuwon and DRob on the defensive hand ??

and that 95 series...
Remember that Horry won G1 with that 3pts shot ?
Remember how Dennis Rodman ****ed all team chemistry since game 1, staying away from the bench during time outs ? Remember he removed his sneakers during the game? that he did not train before some games of the series ?
Remember that David defended most of the series on Olajuwon, while Olajuwon did not defend much on DRob ? (Rockets coaching >>)
how do you think you can beat the champion team in this condition ?

During that 90's big men era, Robinson was the only one to have 40pts games against Mourning, mutombo and Olajuwon.

[HylianNightmare]

He fell off so hard

[Rake2204]

Could hold his own against peak Shaq :applause:Ben Wallace is one of my all-time favorites, but I don't know if he really did hold his own against Shaquille O'Neal, at least the semi-prime Shaq. Maybe he did a little better against Miami O'Neal but against the 2004 Lakers version, I just have memories of Ben battling hard but still giving up oodles and oodles of easy baskets to O'Neal (and who can blame him). The pattern of Finals games that year seemed to be:

1) Lakers force-feed O'Neal at start. He scores with relative ease over and over again.
2) O'Neal begins to fatigue and/or Lakers begin unconsciously moving away from O'Neal post strategy
3) Pistons begin to hammer Lakers when O'Neal stopped getting looks

It was a genius plan by the Pistons to not double O'Neal (thus cutting out one of L.A.'s prime forms of attack - the O'Neal kickout to open shooters) and maybe I'm underrating my own guy, but I remember Wallace battling relatively unsuccessfully when O'Neal was looking to attack. Maybe the level of work Wallace made O'Neal exert for those baskets is a big part of why he tired so readily as the game wore on.

[Detroit]

http://cdn1.sbnation.com/uploads/chorus_image/image/2862089/wtfclips.0_standard_709.0.gif

My reaction exactly, what exactly has LOPEZ done to be compared to Ben?:oldlol:

[Rake2204]

exactly, Ben Wallace is actually overrated on this forum.
He had 2-3 good seasons cause he played under a great coach with a smart organisation, in a complete team who was determined and played all together for some years. THAT was the key of the success of those Pistons, cohesion.
Who was Ben Wallace before and after ? an athletic silhouette who had a lot of energy for sure, but an all time great defensive player ? hell no.

The pistons played great D as a block, people acting like Wallace was the beast waiting under the basket...no, everyone made the shots, penetrations difficult -Billups, Hamilton, Prince, Sheed- but it is not in the ****ing stats so the credit only goes to Wallace.I disagree with portions of this analysis. Ben Wallace was the catalyst for any and everything good that happened to that Pistons organization in the early and mid-2000's.

At that start, Wallace was a beast waiting under the basket. He undoubtedly led the 2002 Pistons to their first taste of winning basketball in nearly a decade. That was a unit that started Chucky Atkins, Jerry Stackhouse, Michael Curry, and Clifford Robinson. Wallace averaged 13 boards and 3.5 blocks that year. He was the defensive force, and I say that as someone who watched those games (as opposed to merely pointing at statistics).

Other things had to fall in line in '02 as well (Ben averaged 14 reb. per 36 minutes in '01, for instance, and they were not good). Picking up Clifford Robinson and Corliss Williamson were important. But no one established that team's identity and set the standard more than Wallace. He was an absolute monster and disruptor.

Ultimately, the rest of his eventually new teammates fed off of what he was providing. I'd venture to say that if Chauncey Billups and Richard Hamilton never played for the Pistons, there wouldn't be much recollection of their defense. Not so with Wallace.

I sometimes think it's unfortunate he didn't win the 2004 Finals MVP (had 18 points and 22 rebounds in the clincher, averaged 11 points and 14 rebounds for the series) because some have then interpreted history a little different than it actually may have been. Billups certainly did his part for those teams, but Wallace was the man who made everything go, even before Billups ever arrived.

I'm with you on Robinson though. I'm biased on that front too because he's another one of my all-time favorites.

[BuffaloBill]

See my edit.

But they are def comparable.

Both centers.
Both a terrible liability on offense.
Both great on defense. (Although Ben was way better)

I loved watching Ben Wallace play, but I would take a handful of current big men over Ben Wallace.



oh yeah?

[Rake2204]

He fell off so hardInterestingly, Wallace has one of the most aesthetically pleasing statistical declines I've ever seen.

I think his career gets misinterpreted sometimes because he was invisible through the first half of it, just trying to find someone to give him a chance. He didn't really arrive on the scene until '02, when he was 27 years old. As a result, when he left for Chicago in the summer of 2006, he felt young, because he'd only been in the national consciousness for four or five years, but he was actually already on his way to his 32nd birthday.

So really, his decline made sense, it was just unusual to see, since other players five years into domination (LeBron James, let's say) were only knocking on their 24th birthday.

Still, check out his per game statistics, his rebounding in particular: http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wallabe01.html. Following his true arrival in 2002, no spikes, no down years, nothing random. Just a steady upward stream leading to a peak, then a yearly gentle decline until he retired. He's like a real-life version of 2K's robotic progression system.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Most underrated? Hell no.

Underrated? Probably yea, you can make a great case for it...