Can you make a case for Tim Duncan being Top 5 All-Time?

[1987_Lakers]

- 15x NBA All-Star
- 10x All-NBA First Team (3x Second Team)
- 8x All-NBA Defensive First Team (5x Second Team)
- 2x NBA MVP
- 5x NBA Champion
- 3x NBA Finals MVP

During his peak...: 24.5 PPG | 12.8 RPG | 3.8 APG | 2.7 BPG | 51 FG%

The only players who have a better clear cut resume than that are Jordan, Russell, & Kareem.

[RightTwoCensor]

Of course.


Thing is that we live in a retarded era that deems a player not great if he doesn't enter a dunk contest or it's a shame to make four straight Finals and only win two of them.

[ShawkFactory]

Of course.


Thing is that we live in a retarded era that deems a player not great if he doesn't enter a dunk contest or it's a shame to make four straight Finals and only win two of them.
It's not a retarded era its a retarded message board..

[K Xerxes]

I don't think he's as good as Jordan, Kareem, Wilt and Russell (who make up my top 4), but he has a strong case for 5th spot along with a few other names.

You don't have to have him at 5 to appreciate that he has a case for it, so the answer to the thread is clearly yes. For some people he may have a case for being even higher, but not for me.

[Jacks3]

Yep.

[AirBourne92]

kinda wack how people still only rely on accolades to rank players

[navy]

Yes. Easily if you want to.

I doubt most people think that he was as good as some you could put above him though.

[1987_Lakers]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MljtCOZ1m_c

[ILLsmak]

Of course.


Thing is that we live in a retarded era that deems a player not great if he doesn't enter a dunk contest or it's a shame to make four straight Finals and only win two of them.

You can but you have to be kind of a dummy. Cuz he's not.

He's got a good resume but in terms of the top 5 greatest bball players ever get the **** out.

-Smak

[RightTwoCensor]

top 5 greatest bball players ever?

Wouldn't ORL Tracy McGrady be in that conversation to be in the top 20 on that list?


Fact is that you're only as good as your resume, those goes for the NBA and in real life.

[ILLsmak]

top 5 greatest bball players ever?

Wouldn't ORL Tracy McGrady be in that conversation to be in the top 20 on that list?


Fact is that you're only as good as your resume, those goes for the NBA and in real life.

Kobe's resume is top 5 then, too.

Obviously a resume matters, but there's more than just that. I think you need both when you are talking about people at that level.

Kareem, Wilt, Russell, Bird, Magic, MJ. Who is he really gonna knock off? Kareem has the ultimate resume. Wilt has the records, Russell has the wins. MJ dominated a modern era and Bird/Magic were fighting for the supposed golden era of bball.

Someone has to come in and do something more than those guys, and I don't think TD has. If you think he has, explain to me what he did.

-Smak

[SCdac]

When it's all said and done I think you can, especially if he plays another season at relatively full health. Just topping off an already great career. By only his 8th season (age 28), he already had 3 Finals MVPs and 2 regular season MVP's.

[IGOTGAME]

I think Duncan should be above Bird and Magic. You can def make a case for top 5.


Someone has to come in and do something more than those guys, and I don't think TD has. If you think he has, explain to me what he did.

how about he was a better more impactfull basketball than Bird and Magic?

[ILLsmak]

I think Duncan should be above Bird and Magic. You can def make a case for top 5.



how about he was a better more impactfull basketball than Bird and Magic?

I dunno, in what way? Any way other than 'being a 7 footer'? I don't think you can unseat those guys without a valid case. I think, as I said, a case can be made, but you can also make a case for Kobe. You could even make a case for LeBron... but the fact is nobody has come in and done enough, in my mind, to get into that top six.

You have to be able to look at these guys in a vacuum and imagine how they would play in an impossible hypothetical situation where only their play would influence the win. Not think of what Bird did on the Cs and what Duncan did on the Spurs... because they play two different positions, on two different teams, in two different eras. You can't be like BCUZ DEFENSE. Or, maybe you can, but I won't be as shortsighted. Sure, it's a plus to his case, but how can you let that be the only deciding factor? Or do you have another 'impact' that Duncan has over Bird and Magic?

-Smak

[GOBB]

MJ Kareem Wilt Russell Bron Shaq


then Duncan

[RightTwoCensor]

Kobe's resume is top 5 then, too.
He's a Top 10 player, #5 would be a reach.


Obviously a resume matters, but there's more than just that. I think you need both when you are talking about people at that level.
Off the court we know his accolades.

On court:

One of the Greatest Rebounders
One of the Greatest Shot Blockers
One of the Greatest Big Man Passers
One of the Greatest Post Players


Kareem, Wilt, Russell, Bird, Magic, MJ. Who is he really gonna knock off? Kareem has the ultimate resume. Wilt has the records, Russell has the wins. MJ dominated a modern era and Bird/Magic were fighting for the supposed golden era of bball.

Take your pick between Magic or Bird. Can't really go wrong with the ranking of the three players.


Someone has to come in and do something more than those guys, and I don't think TD has. If you think he has, explain to me what he did.
His resume is above.

If Duncan was more of a marketable player he'd be Top 5 without any question, yet sadly people will remember him as a boring, jump-hooking, emotionless player for the unwatchable San Antonio Spurs where he never shows the signs of being the "alpha dog" of his team.


-Smak

-RightTwoCensor

[IGOTGAME]

I dunno, in what way? Any way other than 'being a 7 footer'? I don't think you can unseat those guys without a valid case. I think, as I said, a case can be made, but you can also make a case for Kobe. You could even make a case for LeBron... but the fact is nobody has come in and done enough, in my mind, to get into that top six.

You have to be able to look at these guys in a vacuum and imagine how they would play in an impossible hypothetical situation where only their play would influence the win. Not think of what Bird did on the Cs and what Duncan did on the Spurs... because they play two different positions, on two different teams, in two different eras. You can't be like BCUZ DEFENSE. Or, maybe you can, but I won't be as shortsighted. Sure, it's a plus to his case, but how can you let that be the only deciding factor? Or do you have another 'impact' that Duncan has over Bird and Magic?

-Smak

The different positions thing is bs. You can easily compare across positions. They both play basketball and thus a comparison can be made.

Duncan was a flawless basketball player, he anchored an offense and a defense and did both at an all time great level. He sacrificed when necessary and adapted his game when needed. He has done this since 1997.

Just because Magic and Bird played in the golden era doesnt give them a auto pass over go later. Look at there careers as a whole and their skill sets and make a determination on how impactful they were.

[Cold soul]

He's a Top 10 player, #5 would be a reach.


Off the court we know his accolades.

On court:

One of the Greatest Rebounders
One of the Greatest Shot Blockers
One of the Greatest Big Man Passers
One of the Greatest Post Players



Take your pick between Magic or Bird. Can't really go wrong with the ranking of the three players.


His resume is above.

If Duncan was more of a marketable player he'd be Top 5 without any question, yet sadly people will remember him as a boring, jump-hooking, emotionless player for the unwatchable San Antonio Spurs where he never shows the signs of being the "alpha dog" of his team.



-RightTwoCensor

What does your top 10 list look like?

[TheMarkMadsen]

He's a Top 10 player, #5 would be a reach.


Off the court we know his accolades.

On court:

One of the Greatest Rebounders
One of the Greatest Shot Blockers
One of the Greatest Big Man Passers
One of the Greatest Post Players



Take your pick between Magic or Bird. Can't really go wrong with the ranking of the three players.


His resume is above.

If Duncan was more of a marketable player he'd be Top 5 without any question, yet sadly people will remember him as a boring, jump-hooking, emotionless player for the unwatchable San Antonio Spurs where he never shows the signs of being the "alpha dog" of his team.



-RightTwoCensor

never led the league in rebounds or blocks, not an all time great at something if you never led the league in it..

[SCdac]

Most blocks in playoff history.. most blocks in a Finals series (2003) .. most double-doubles in playoff history... but was never elite at any of that of course /sarcasm

[greatest-ever]

Yes, i have him 4-5 all time. He has the resume, peak play, 2-way play, durability, consistency leadership etc etc. And honestly i don't even like him and never have but i have to be objective.

Anyone saying he has no case for top 5 is delusional.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Most blocks in playoff history.. most blocks in a Finals series (2003) .. most double-doubles in playoff history... but was never elite at any of that of course /sarcasm

when did i say he wasn't elite?

all time great? ... i don't know..

he's easily behind Wilt, Russell, Wallace, Mutombo, Hakeem, Zo in the shot blocking department.

Duncan never led the NBA in any statistical category during the regular season, how many top 5 GOATS could say the same?

[RightTwoCensor]

1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Russell
4. Wilt
5-7. Magic, Bird, Duncan
8-12. Oscar, Shaq, Hakeem, Kobe, Lebron

Top 4 are locked.

-I need to wait til Duncan retires to see if he solidifies the #5 spot.
-Still debating Magic and Bird, but I'm leaning toward the guy in green.
-Need study up more on Oscar.
-Shaq had a GOAT peak in LA, but was highly beatable everywhere else.
-Gotta wait until Kobe retires to rank him, he probably is ahead of Hakeem now.
-Call me back in 10 years about Lebron.

[RightTwoCensor]

when did i say he wasn't elite?

all time great? ... i don't know..

he's easily behind Wilt, Russell, Wallace, Mutombo, Hakeem, Zo in the shot blocking department.

Duncan never led the NBA in any statistical category during the regular season, how many top 5 GOATS could say the same?
He can be the first.

How many top 5 GOATS could say they've never won multiple FMVPs?

[ShawkFactory]

when did i say he wasn't elite?

all time great? ... i don't know..

he's easily behind Wilt, Russell, Wallace, Mutombo, Hakeem, Zo in the shot blocking department.

Duncan never led the NBA in any statistical category during the regular season, how many top 5 GOATS could say the same?
You don't think Duncan is an all-time great.....?

[SCdac]

You don't think Duncan is an all-time great.....?

I think he's saying he doesn't think he's an all time great at rebounding and shotblocking... based on "not leading the league" in those statistical categories.. which is utterly laughable.

[TheMarkMadsen]

He can be the first.

How many top 5 GOATS could say they've never won multiple FMVPs?

:confusedshrug: :confusedshrug:

[RightTwoCensor]

:confusedshrug: :confusedshrug:
It's Wilt...

[greatest-ever]

1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Russell
4. Wilt
5-7. Magic, Bird, Duncan
8-12. Oscar, Shaq, Hakeem, Kobe, Lebron

Top 4 are locked.

-I need to wait til Duncan retires to see if he solidifies the #5 spot.
-Still debating Magic and Bird, but I'm leaning toward the guy in green.
-Need study up more on Oscar.
-Shaq had a GOAT peak in LA, but was highly beatable everywhere else.
-Gotta wait until Kobe retires to rank him, he probably is ahead of Hakeem now.
-Call me back in 10 years about Lebron.
Just curious why are the top 4 a lock? I agree on Mj and Kareem for 1 and 2 but after that i think its debatable, i'm not as high on Russell as most and wouldn't put him in my top 5. I would put Wilt over Duncan but one can certianly make a case for duncan. For me if Duncan wins another ring i'd probably put him number 3 all time.

[ShawkFactory]

:confusedshrug: :confusedshrug:
Regular season MVPs.

[TheMarkMadsen]

I think he's saying he doesn't think he's an all time great at rebounding and shotblocking... based on "not leading the league" in those statistical categories.. which is utterly laughable.

all time great at "scoring, rebounding, etc" to me means somebody was the top 1-3 ever in that category.

Hakeem, Zo, Russell, Wallace, Mutombo were all better shot blockers than Duncan.

doesn't mean he wasn't a great shot blocker and rebounder, but there are a list of people ahead of him in both categories

[tpols]

The more I think about it the more impossible it is to rank players.. everyone's in different situations and some influence their teammates more than others which doesn't show up in their own stats. Like Wilt and Kareem are routinely ranked over magic and Bird but magic was more of a winner and teammate elevator in his short career than Kareem was in his long one.. because magic made guys better and communicated great and inspired while Kareem comes off as a reclusive super talent. Same with Bird and Wilt.. Bird was all about elevating team play while Wilt had the God complex that only he could get the job done. It's pretty hard to distinguish between the two sets of players. As far as greatest winners goes imo it's

Mj
Russell
Magic
Bird
Duncan

Rest are more individual players in the top ten

[T_L_P]

These are the players with more alpha/top dog rings than Duncan:

Russell (anywhere from 8-11)
Jordan (6)
Mikan (5)

That's it. Duncan has 4 and Magic also has 4.

I'm not saying this is how you should rank players, but it's interesting. I personally have Duncan 5th and of course you can make his case.

2nd best longevity of any top 10 player (behind Kareem)

3rd best defense of any top 10 player (behind Hakeem and Russell)

Top 5 peak of any top 10 player (this one is shaky though as opinions vary a lot, his 03 Playoff run is statistically one of the 5 best ever though)

Top 3 in intangibles, leadership, winning, etc (behind Russell and Magic, you could add a couple of other names, but he's without a doubt top 5)

Top 5 resume/accolades

And, like it or not, he proved he could win with less help than most of those guys..

[TheMarkMadsen]

It's Wilt...

Kind of tough to win an award that hasn't been created yet..

[TheMarkMadsen]

These are the players with more alpha/top dog rings than Duncan:

Russell (anywhere from 8-11)
Jordan (6)
Mikan (5)

That's it. Duncan has 4 and Magic also has 4.

I'm not saying this is how you should rank players, but it's interesting. I personally have Duncan 5th and of course you can make his case.

2nd best longevity of any top 10 player (behind Kareem)

3rd best defense of any top 10 player (behind Hakeem and Russell)

Top 5 peak of any top 10 player (this one is shaky though as opinions vary a lot, his 03 Playoff run is statistically one of the 5 best ever though)

Top 3 in intangibles, leadership, winning, etc (behind Russell and Magic, you could add a couple of other names, but he's without a doubt top 5)

Top 5 resume/accolades

And, like it or not, he proved he could win with less help than most of those guys..

Duncan has 3 FMVPs, 99 was a joke of a season, was outplayed in the 05 finals by Manu, was role player/defensive specialist last year.

if you don't win FMVP it's not an "alpha ring" according to ISH, I know we're suppose to give it a pass since it's Duncan and saying anything negative about him or even trying to challenge the way he's looked at his considered being a hater, but lets keep it consistent no?

and yes, 99 was a joke, if the Lakers won in 99 and then went on to 4peat, they would forever have an * when compared to Russel's Celtics

[RightTwoCensor]

Just curious why are the top 4 a lock? I agree on Mj and Kareem for 1 and 2 but after that i think its debatable, i'm not as high on Russell as most and wouldn't put him in my top 5. I would put Wilt over Duncan but one can certianly make a case for duncan. For me if Duncan wins another ring i'd probably put him number 3 all time.
Bill Russell was helped destroy the barrier of white and black athletes, then you factor how he was an All-Time great rebounder in college and in the pros, THEN you factor that he's the greatest winner in league history for any star player.

Wilt's postseason success (or lack thereof) kills he debate between him and Bill. Yet, his records for scoring and rebounding showed how dominant of a center he was statistically. Nobody is a greater regular season performer than Wilt Chamberlain in the history of American Sports.

[TheMarkMadsen]

The more I think about it the more impossible it is to rank players.. everyone's in different situations and some influence their teammates more than others which doesn't show up in their own stats. Like Wilt and Kareem are routinely ranked over magic and Bird but magic was more of a winner and teammate elevator in his short career than Kareem was in his long one.. because magic made guys better and communicated great and inspired while Kareem comes off as a reclusive super talent. Same with Bird and Wilt.. Bird was all about elevating team play while Wilt had the God complex that only he could get the job done. It's pretty hard to distinguish between the two sets of players. As far as greatest winners goes imo it's

Mj
Russell
Magic
Bird
Duncan

Rest are more individual players in the top ten

Bigs are considerably and constantly overrated on ISH

as you were saying, the more i think about it why does Kareem rank over Magic, I've been guilty of doing this in the past, but Kareem couldn't even make the playoffs unless he had Magic or Oscar

and all of Kareems rings came while playing with players who at the time were considered possible GOATS

When Kareem retired Oscar and Magic were probably in everybodys top 5

why don't we hold this against him..

[T_L_P]

Duncan has 3 FMVPs, 99 was a joke of a season, was outplayed in the 05 finals by Manu, was role player/defensive specialist last year.

if you don't win FMVP it's not an "alpha ring" according to ISH, I know we're suppose to give it a pass since it's Duncan and saying anything negative about him or even trying to challenge the way he's looked at his considered being a hater, but lets keep it consistent no?

and yes, 99 was a joke, if the Lakers won in 99 and then went on to 4peat, they would forever have an * when compared to Russel's Celtics

Who gives a fck about things 'according to ISH'? I've said Kobe was co-alpha in 01, arguably the best player in the entire league (if you just look at the Playoffs). :oldlol:

Everyone played the same season in 99. There was nothing that favoured the Spurs. We were one of the two or three oldest teams in the entire league. Heck, if it's a joke of a season, and easier to win, I'm knocking Kobe and Shaq down spots for not being able to get it done. Fair's fair, right?

Didn't call 2014 an alpha ring. Don't play Strawman.

Again, one Finals series doesn't change what happened that year. Go find me one article, or video, where someone said Manu was the leader/best player/this is his team (not just the best player in one series, which he was).

It was Duncan's team from 99 until around 11, and he won 4 titles. That's a fact.

Shaq has 3, Kobe has 3, Bird has 3 (although, according to you, that was Maxwell's team, right?), Hakeem has 2, the list goes on.

EDIT: and again, I'm not saying Tim's a lock. I'm not saying he has to be there. I'm not saying he's better than Kobe/Shaq/Hakeem. I'm just saying why someone might have him there or above those players.

[tpols]

Bigs are considerably and constantly overrated on ISH

as you were saying, the more i think about it why dos Kareem rank over Magic, I've been guilty of doing this in the past, but Kareem couldn't even make the playoffs unless he had Magic or Oscar

and all of Kareems rings came while playing with players who at the time were considered possible GOATS

When Kareem retired Oscar and Magic were probably in everybodys top 5

why don't we hold this against him..

They're not overrated necessarily.. Russell and Duncan didn't care about their scoring or prestige.. Wilt definitely did.. Kareem did to an extent but I think his problem was he just wasn't a outgoing or motivational person. Either way both didn't elevate teammates same way. If you look at the list it's one C, one PF, one SF, one SG, and one PG.

It doesn't really matter the position.. if you have 'it' you have it

[keep-itreal]

top 5 easily:rockon:

[97 bulls]

top 5 greatest bball players ever?

Wouldn't ORL Tracy McGrady be in that conversation to be in the top 20 on that list?


Fact is that you're only as good as your resume, those goes for the NBA and in real life.
I agree. Unfortunately, and this really only seems to apply to basketball and its fans, far too often, we blur the line between a players resume, and their talent. Is there any coincidence that the consensus "top ten" all had 8-10 years with what is considered the best teams playing with them?

[Roundball_Rock]

Yes, but it is a reach. KAJ, MJ, Wilt and Russell in whatever order are the clear top 4. You can make a case, though, for Duncan being 5th. The next group is Shaq, Magic, Bird, Duncan, Kobe, Hakeem, LeBron in some order. If your criteria heavily weights winning and longevity you can argue for Duncan as 5th. As far as dominance goes he simply was not as great a player as the top 4 or Shaq, Magic, Bird, LeBron although he was better than Hakeem and Kobe. Magic, Bird have poor longevity. Hakeem won "only" 2 rings and most of his legacy is based on what he did over three years. LeBron is still a work in progress, although he actually has surpassed Bird, Magic in longevity.

The thing is, though, if you are going to weight winning and longevity to elevate him past superior players like Magic, Bird you also logically have to elevate Kobe past them. Shaq's longevity is underrated and solid and I don't think one ring makes a difference as far as all-time rankings go but I can see someone doing so. Kobe has more rings than Bird, as many as Magic and blows both away in longevity. If you have Duncan 5th, you should logically have Kobe right on his gearbox.

I notice longevity is invoked frequently with Duncan but never with KAJ. KAJ's peak play rivals that of anyone, he had a 11 year prime and produced 17 elite seasons, 18 all-star level seasons and 20 seasons as a starter to have the clear GOAT longevity. Yet I rarely see longevity invoked where KAJ is concerned. KAJ was in the conference finals (14 years) almost as long as MJ played (15 years, with one season being an 18 game season and another a 17 game season) yet longevity is never factored in when those two are compared.

A lot of the Duncan stuff is a due to being prisoners of the moment--hence special factors to promote him that usually are ignored by most fans in other cases--but the truth is there is not much to separate #5 all-time from #10 all-time. LeBron could clearly separate himself from that second group and join the first but he is not there yet. Duncan could be 5th all-time or 10th all-time and similarly solid cases could be made for either.

[Dro]

No.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Who gives a fck about things 'according to ISH'? I've said Kobe was co-alpha in 01, arguably the best player in the entire league (if you just look at the Playoffs). :oldlol:

Everyone played the same season in 99. There was nothing that favoured the Spurs. We were one of the two or three oldest teams in the entire league. Heck, if it's a joke of a season, and easier to win, I'm knocking Kobe and Shaq down spots for not being able to get it done. Fair's fair, right?

Didn't call 2014 an alpha ring. Don't play Strawman.

Again, one Finals series doesn't change what happened that year. Go find me one article, or video, where someone said Manu was the leader/best player/this is his team (not just the best player in one series, which he was).

It was Duncan's team from 99 until around 11, and he won 4 titles. That's a fact.

Shaq has 3, Kobe has 3, Bird has 3 (although, according to you, that was Maxwell's team, right?), Hakeem has 2, the list goes on.

EDIT: and again, I'm not saying Tim's a lock. I'm not saying he has to be there. I'm not saying he's better than Kobe/Shaq/Hakeem. I'm just saying why someone might have him there or above those players.

Fair enough

But you've said it yourself that after re watching the finals you believed Manu was the real FMVP

[ninephive]

- 15x NBA All-Star
- 10x All-NBA First Team (3x Second Team)
- 8x All-NBA Defensive First Team (5x Second Team)
- 2x NBA MVP
- 5x NBA Champion
- 3x NBA Finals MVP

During his peak...: 24.5 PPG | 12.8 RPG | 3.8 APG | 2.7 BPG | 51 FG%

The only players who have a better clear cut resume than that are Jordan, Russell, & Kareem.
I completely agree. Literally the only hole in his resume is his lack of back-to-back titles. I have him at # 5:

Jordan
Kareem
Russell
Wilt
Duncan

I wouldn't argue with anyone who puts him above Wilt.

[Warners0]

Why does Duncan have to take a backseat anyone in the history of basketball?

We judge greatness off winning and no one in the history of basketball has done more with less than Tim Duncan.

That is a fact no one can dispute.

Because he is the only one in the NBA with multiple NBA titles with no All NBA teammates.

You will find players that have did it once like Hakeem or Dirk. But only Tim Duncan has done it more than once and he did it 4 times.

He also did it in a small market, on a franchise with no prestige, and that is important because big free agents don't flock to places like San Antonio. Or at least they didn't back when Duncan was in his prime.

The man never won less 50 games in his career, and even though he doesn't have the individual scoring numbers as other all time greats.

I think that is clearly due to his commitment to playing team basketball, because throughout the spurs history in the playoffs and in the regular season, when Duncan wanted to score he was unstoppable no one could stop him.

He showed he clearly had the capability to go for an east 30 every night but that was never a priority for him.

He was the type of player that if another guy had it going he was never going to stop the flow of the offense just to get his numbers.

Also the spurs throughout his career have had a top 10 mostly top 5 defense every year he has played for the spurs.

How many other great players can say they consistently anchored their teams top defenses every year like Duncan can.

The fact that he never got defensive player of the year is an absolute travesty.

People don't put Duncan with the elite of the elite, because people really weren't paying attention to his career like they should of.

Who remembers when Chris Broussard said that Duncan needed a championship against the Heat to justify his career when the man had already won 4 titles.

He is also very boring according to majority of basketball fans, so they don't give him the love like they do the other great players who had great charisma.

I'll take Duncan over any player in history, because I don't need another second star to have a dynasty.

While all the other greats did.

[T_L_P]

Yes, but it is a reach. KAJ, MJ, Wilt and Russell in whatever order are the clear top 4. You can make a case, though, for Duncan being 5th. The next group is Shaq, Magic, Bird, Duncan, Kobe, Hakeem, LeBron in some order. If your criteria heavily weights winning and longevity you can argue for Duncan as 5th. As far as dominance goes he simply was not as great a player as the top 4 or Shaq, Magic, Bird, LeBron although he was better than Hakeem and Kobe. Magic, Bird have poor longevity. Hakeem won "only" 2 rings and most of his legacy is based on what he did over three years. LeBron is still a work in progress, although he actually has surpassed Bird, Magic in longevity.

The thing is, though, if you are going to weight winning and longevity to elevate him past superior players like Magic, Bird you also logically have to elevate Kobe past them. Shaq's longevity is underrated and solid and I don't think one ring makes a difference as far as all-time rankings go but I can see someone doing so. Kobe has more rings than Bird, as many as Magic and blows both away in longevity. If you have Duncan 5th, you should logically have Kobe right on his gearbox.

I notice longevity is invoked frequently with Duncan but never with KAJ. KAJ's peak play rivals that of anyone, he had a 11 year prime and produced 17 elite seasons and 18 all-star level seasons to have the GOAT longevity. Yet I rarely see longevity invoked when KAJ is concerned.

A lot of the Duncan stuff is a due to being prisoners of the moment but the truth is there is not much to separate #5 all-time from #10 all-time. LeBron could clearly separate himself from that second group and join the first but he is not there yet.

Very good post overall, I just can't get behind someone saying Magic/Bird were clearly more dominant, or at their peaks they were clearly better players. I might even throw Shaq into that group (he was obviously more 'dominant').

I've explained numerous times why 02-03 Duncan can be rivaled with almost any player. The gap between his offense and Bird's/Magic's/Shaq's is visible, for sure...but Duncan was playing some of the best defense in NBA history. especially in the Playoffs, and those three didn't come close on that end of the floor.

Again, I've explained this multiple times but people still don't seem to get it. I'm gonna post a stat, and if you don't like stats, fine...but I think it backs up what I am saying.

Duncan's BPM in the 02 Playoffs was a 10.4. In 03, when he won the title, it was 11.6, the second highest for a title run in NBA history.

Shaq's highest? 8.6 in the 97 Playoffs.
Highest for a title run: 7.2 in 00.

Bird/Magic/Shaq never had to do as much as Duncan did in those two seasons. He was the primary scoring option, defensive anchor, and main playmaker from the post (the only above average passers we had outside of Tim were Manu and Speedy, Robinson maybe in his advanced age).

If you really value defense, and you happen to think Tim is one of the great defenders...I don't think it's crazy to say his best years can rival those of Bird/Magic/Shaq. Not saying he has to be placed over them...but it's a real discussion. :confusedshrug:

[T_L_P]

People need to remember pace as well.

Bird's peak was 28/11/6 on a team that scored 112 PPG, with good individual defense in an era where very little defense was played. Or if you like Bird the passer more it's 26/9/8 on a team that scored 114 PPG.

Duncan's peak was 25/15/5 on a team that scored 95 PPG, with all time great defense in arguably the greatest defensive era.

Just something to think about.

[rmt]

Duncan has 3 FMVPs, 99 was a joke of a season, was outplayed in the 05 finals by Manu, was role player/defensive specialist last year.

if you don't win FMVP it's not an "alpha ring" according to ISH, I know we're suppose to give it a pass since it's Duncan and saying anything negative about him or even trying to challenge the way he's looked at his considered being a hater, but lets keep it consistent no?

and yes, 99 was a joke, if the Lakers won in 99 and then went on to 4peat, they would forever have an * when compared to Russel's Celtics

He was not out-played by Manu in the 05 Finals. 18.7 pts / 5.9 rebs / 4 asst is not out-playing 20.6 pts / 14.1 rebs / 2.1 asst / 2.1 blks especially when Duncan is anchoring the defense.

2014 playoffs
Parker 17.4 pts / 4.8 asst 48.6%
Duncan 16.3 pts / 9.2 rebs / 2 asst / 1.3 blks 52.3%
Leonard 14.3 pts / 6.7 rebs / 1.7 asst / 1.7 stl 51%

If Duncan was a role player last year, then they were ALL role players.

Every playoff team had the same opportunity to win in 99. If it was such a joke, then Lakers should have won - instead they were swept by the Spurs.

[Roundball_Rock]

I just can't get behind someone saying Magic/Bird were clearly more dominant, or at their peaks they were clearly better players. I might even throw Shaq into that group (he was obviously more 'dominant').

Shaq was better than all of them imo. He is #5 on my list. A key difference between Magic, Bird and basically anyone in the top 10 is their poor longevity relative to the others. Bird's last elite season came at age 31. So did Magic's--and Magic was out the league the same year. A guy like KAJ was elite at age 38 and played three additional seasons. I can easily see someone putting Duncan over Magic, Bird based largely on longevity and defense-and also winning versus Bird.


I've explained numerous times why 02-03 Duncan can be rivaled with almost any player. The gap between his offense and Bird's/Magic's/Shaq's is visible, for sure...but Duncan was playing some of the best defense in NBA history. especially in the Playoffs, and those three didn't come close on that end of the floor.

Again, I've explained this multiple times but people still don't seem to get it. I'm gonna post a stat, and if you don't like stats, fine...but I think it backs up what I am saying.

Duncan's BPM in the 02 Playoffs was a 10.4. In 03, when he won the title, it was 11.6, the second highest for a title run in NBA history.

Shaq's highest? 8.6 in the 97 Playoffs.
Highest for a title run: 7.2 in 00.


All of those are legitimate points. I can see case for Duncan to that end. Regarding stats, I think part of Shaq's greatness went beyond raw stats, i.e the pressure he placed on opposing teams due to the attention he required and the foul trouble he caused for entire front lines.

Magic has a harder argument over Duncan than Bird since Bird had a better peak.

Shaq, Duncan, Hakeem, LeBron, Kobe, Magic and Bird are often lumped together. I don't think their is much separating them, at least right now. I think LeBron and Shaq were better players and Hakeem the worst of the group but there is not much separating them (I think LeBron likely finishes in the top tier and separates himself but he is not there yet).

My criteria values winning, defense and longevity along with peak play and sheer dominance so I have Duncan 6th behind KAJ, MJ, Wilt, Russell, and Shaq. My objection is more towards the double standard where longevity is invoked for Duncan but ignored for KAJ and not mentioned for Kobe or LeBron, who both surpass Magic and Bird in longevity now.

[TheMarkMadsen]

He was not out-played by Manu in the 05 Finals. 18.7 pts / 5.9 rebs / 4 asst is not out-playing 20.6 pts / 14.1 rebs / 2.1 asst / 2.1 blks especially when Duncan is anchoring the defense.

2014 playoffs
Parker 17.4 pts / 4.8 asst 48.6%
Duncan 16.3 pts / 9.2 rebs / 2 asst / 1.3 blks 52.3%
Leonard 14.3 pts / 6.7 rebs / 1.7 asst / 1.7 stl 51%

If Duncan was a role player last year, then they were ALL role players.

Every playoff team had the same opportunity to win in 99. If it was such a joke, then Lakers should have won - instead they were swept by the Spurs.

yeah basically

no other coach would win with that team

[tpols]

He was not out-played by Manu in the 05 Finals. 18.7 pts / 5.9 rebs / 4 asst is not out-playing 20.6 pts / 14.1 rebs / 2.1 asst / 2.1 blks especially when Duncan is anchoring the defense.

2014 playoffs
Parker 17.4 pts / 4.8 asst 48.6%
Duncan 16.3 pts / 9.2 rebs / 2 asst / 1.3 blks 52.3%
Leonard 14.3 pts / 6.7 rebs / 1.7 asst / 1.7 stl 51%

If Duncan was a role player last year, then they were ALL role players.

Every playoff team had the same opportunity to win in 99. If it was such a joke, then Lakers should have won - instead they were swept by the Spurs.

Last year they pretty much were all role players . They were like the 04 pistons but more offensive.

[TheMarkMadsen]

He was not out-played by Manu in the 05 Finals. 18.7 pts / 5.9 rebs / 4 asst is not out-playing 20.6 pts / 14.1 rebs / 2.1 asst / 2.1 blks especially when Duncan is anchoring the defense.

2014 playoffs
Parker 17.4 pts / 4.8 asst 48.6%
Duncan 16.3 pts / 9.2 rebs / 2 asst / 1.3 blks 52.3%
Leonard 14.3 pts / 6.7 rebs / 1.7 asst / 1.7 stl 51%

If Duncan was a role player last year, then they were ALL role players.

Every playoff team had the same opportunity to win in 99. If it was such a joke, then Lakers should have won - instead they were swept by the Spurs.

yeah because Shaq couldn't beat Duncan until Kobe became an elite top 5 player

[97 bulls]

People need to remember pace as well.

Bird's peak was 28/11/6 on a team that scored 112 PPG, with good individual defense in an era where very little defense was played. Or if you like Bird the passer more it's 26/9/8 on a team that scored 114 PPG.

Duncan's peak was 25/15/5 on a team that scored 95 PPG, with all time great defense in arguably the greatest defensive era.

Just something to think about.
Its funny how people can never seem to take this into consideration. Teams in the 80s took far more FGs than teams from the 90s and 00s.

[IGOTGAME]

Its funny how people can never seem to take this into consideration. Teams in the 80s took far more FGs than teams from the 90s and 00s.

I get more enjoyment outta watching prime/playoff Tim Duncan on defense than watching every player in the current league on offense.

[mehyaM24]

duncan has been a VERY GOOD center the past couple of years - but hes been deteriorating as well. just three years ago, he averaged 13/9 (dont remember a top 5 player of all time averaging those numbers). top 10 all time? yes - but when you're talking consistency like magic, lebron, kareem, jordan, shaq etc (not in order), those guys make the cut. duncan's had a great overall game, but he hasn't been very consistent or DOMINANT for at least 4-5 seasons now (both sides of the floor).

also, for the praise duncan gets in longevity, shaq should get the same for his seasons in phoenix. dude put up better stats and was still a high impact player (rapm). people think his career ended in miami - and that's a myth.

[SouBeachTalents]

duncan has been a VERY GOOD center the past couple of years - but hes been deteriorating as well. just three years ago, he averaged 13/9 (dont remember a top 5 player of all time averaging those numbers). top 10 all time? yes - but when you're talking consistency like magic, lebron, kareem, jordan, shaq etc (not in order), those guys make the cut. duncan's had a great overall game, but he hasn't been very consistent or DOMINANT for at least 4-5 seasons now (both sides of the floor).

also, for the praise ducnan gets for longevity, shaq should get the same for this seasons in phoenix. dude put up better stats and was still a high impact player (rapm). people think his career ended in miami - and that's a myth.

Sounds like LeBron's 2011 Finals

[mehyaM24]

Sounds like LeBron's 2011 Finals
ya dude..that was original :rolleyes:

[Nowitness]

duncan has been a VERY GOOD center the past couple of years - but hes been deteriorating as well. just three years ago, he averaged 13/9 (dont remember a top 5 player of all time averaging those numbers). top 10 all time? yes - but when you're talking consistency like magic, lebron, kareem, jordan, shaq etc (not in order), those guys make the cut. duncan's had a great overall game, but he hasn't been very consistent or DOMINANT for at least 4-5 seasons now (both sides of the floor).

also, for the praise duncan gets in longevity, shaq should get the same for his seasons in phoenix. dude put up better stats and was still a high impact player (rapm). people think his career ended in miami - and that's a myth.

How exactly was Shaq consistent? Shaq wasn't dominant for his final 7 seasons

[mehyaM24]

How exactly was Shaq consistent? Shaq wasn't dominant for his final 7 seasons

i never made the claim shaq was consistent post phoenix. with the suns, he was a better offensive player than duncan has been the last several years though (positive net impact on defense too). easily.

shaq's dominance and consistency in his prime is well documented. guy was like top 5 in rapm for 11 years (handful of seasons being #1 - more than duncan, despite playing against better centers).

[tpols]

duncan has been a VERY GOOD center the past couple of years - but hes been deteriorating as well. just three years ago, he averaged 13/9 (dont remember a top 5 player of all time averaging those numbers). top 10 all time? yes - but when you're talking consistency like magic, lebron, kareem, jordan, shaq etc (not in order), those guys make the cut. duncan's had a great overall game, but he hasn't been very consistent or DOMINANT for at least 4-5 seasons now (both sides of the floor).

also, for the praise duncan gets in longevity, shaq should get the same for his seasons in phoenix. dude put up better stats and was still a high impact player (rapm). people think his career ended in miami - and that's a myth.

Shaq shouldn't get the same praise because for one, he didn't elevate his teammates play or establish an exlemplative work ethic to motivate teammates/establish a winning culture and he also bailed on teams at the end of his prime for more money.

Shaq was a journeyman to end his career bouncing from team to team giving himself a different nickname based on location.. the big cactus was not better than Duncan because he decided to ring chase with Steve Nash before joining LeBron.. and then the Celtics. This guy hopped team to team trying to join an established winner instead of creating one like Duncan did

Duncan fell off a bit after his prime but unexpectedly reestablished his play past few years.. He wasn't a star but he did all the little things.

[Cold soul]

I don't think Duncan is top 5 but you can make great case based on his amazing longevity and all his accomplishments including winning year in and out with 50+ win seasons while still being productive player in his later years.

[mehyaM24]

Shaq shouldn't get the same praise because for one, he didn't elevate his teammates play or establish an exlemplative work ethic to motivate teammates/establish a winning culture and he also bailed on teams at the end of his prime for more money.

he was one of the best offensive players in the league via rapm, and the suns had a winning record with him vs without him. suggesting that he didn't elevate his teammates play is silly nonsense, but i expect as much from a kobe fan.


Shaq was a journeyman to end his career bouncing from team to team giving himself a different nickname based on location..the big cactus was not better than Duncan because he decided to ring chase with Steve Nash before joining LeBron.. and then the Celtics. This guy hopped team to team trying to join an established winner instead of creating one like Duncan did

more nonsense that has nothing to with what's being posted. take your red-herrings and straw man bs to the kobe/lebron threads. thanks in advance.

the reason duncan is able to "elevate" his teams play has more to do with the spurs TEAM and coach than anything else. duncan was essentially a role player last year, and the spurs kicked the heat's ass despite lebron dominating.

this is duncan's career in a nutshell though. stacked teams (greatest european players, and specialists - bruce bowen/horry etc), coaching and zero perspective from box score watchers. hilarious.

[IGOTGAME]

the reason duncan is able to "elevate" his teams play has more to do with the spurs TEAM and coach than anything else. duncan was essentially a role player last year, and the spurs kicked the heat's ass despite lebron dominating.

this is duncan's career in a nutshell though. stacked teams (greatest european players, and specialists - bruce bowen/horry etc), coaching and zero perspective from box score watchers. hilarious.

Duncan is a litmus test for whether or not you understand the game.

btw... is that what being on a stacked team looks like. bc to me that looks like pure and utter domination.

[iamgine]

- 15x NBA All-Star
- 10x All-NBA First Team (3x Second Team)
- 8x All-NBA Defensive First Team (5x Second Team)
- 2x NBA MVP
- 5x NBA Champion
- 3x NBA Finals MVP

During his peak...: 24.5 PPG | 12.8 RPG | 3.8 APG | 2.7 BPG | 51 FG%

The only players who have a better clear cut resume than that are Jordan, Russell, & Kareem.
It's hard because although he might have a better resume, I don't think he's as good as Hakeem or Shaq. Then it becomes a battle of career vs ability to determine ranks and it's hard to put Duncan that high and be content with it.

[IGOTGAME]

It's hard because although he might have a better resume, I don't think he's as good as Hakeem or Shaq. Then it becomes a battle of career vs ability to determine ranks and it's hard to put Duncan that high and be content with it.

prime for prime. I think Duncan is better than Hakeem. Also, people like to forget about the part of Hakeems career that reflect negatively. Guards calling him a black hole, taking longer to develop into the force rookie and sophmore Duncan was and not lasting as long.

[mehyaM24]

Duncan is a litmus test for whether or not you understand the game.

btw... is that what being on a stacked team looks like. bc to me that looks like pure and utter domination.
duncan is a top 5 center of all time. without question. i just don't think he's as great as advertised (from mostly internet/boxscore watchers).

manu & tony were dominating in europe before san antonino. horry & kerr were hitting clutch shots for other dynasties. popovich was thinking of more inventive ways to kill it in the draft - one of the first coaches/gm's in history implementing heaps of international talent (there is a clip on youtube where popovich sometime in the 90s is being interviewed, saying all the "candy" was overseas).

^^ this isn't me saying duncan wasn't their best player for the majority of their championship runs, its just using perspective and educating the player-only fans.

[IGOTGAME]

duncan is a top 5 center of all time. without question. i just don't think he's as great as advertised (from mostly internet/boxscore watchers).

manu & tony were dominating in europe before san antonino. horry & kerr were hitting clutch shots for other dynasties. popovich was thinking of more inventive ways to kill it in the draft - one of the first coaches/gm's in history implementing heaps of international talent (there is a clip on youtube where popovich sometime in the 90s is being interviewed, saying all the "candy" was overseas).

^^ this isn't me saying duncan wasn't their best player for the majority of their championship runs, its just using perspective and educating the player-only fans.


hold up. Tony was dominating europe before coming to the Spurs?

also, Duncan won a title with one of the worst supporting casts ever. He was carried some crap, they werent always stacked.

[T_L_P]

hold up. Tony was dominating europe before coming to the Spurs?

also, Duncan won a title with one of the worst supporting casts ever. He was carried some crap, they werent always stacked.

mehyaM24 has toned it down and changed his tune in this thread, but he thinks 06-current Parker has been better than 06-current Duncan.

I wouldn't take him too seriously. He loves preaching the RAPM when it suits his agenda too (Duncan's has been better than Parker's every single year but that doesn't matter to him).

[Nastradamus]

I don't put Duncan above Shaq myself.

[mehyaM24]

hold up. Tony was dominating europe before coming to the Spurs?

also, Duncan won a title with one of the worst supporting casts ever. He was carried some crap, they werent always stacked.
yes. he absolutely shredded the all-france league, winning mvps and championships. destroyed the nike summit tournament which really got him recognition.

duncan didn't carry anyone. david robinson's defense alone had him top 10 in rapm - which measures individual impact. the spurs also had one of the greatest perimeter defenders ever in bruce bowen along with kerr, the greatest 3 point shooter statistically. how about parker who picked apart the lakers defense in the playoffs? or manu and robinson being ~top 5 (entire nba) in winshares?

duncan "carrying" is a myth perpetuated by fantasy basketball nerds. lol @ that hyperbole.

[mehyaM24]

mehyaM24 has toned it down and changed his tune in this thread, but he thinks 06-current Parker has been better than 06-current Duncan.

I wouldn't take him too seriously. He loves preaching the RAPM when it suits his agenda too (Duncan's has been better than Parker's every single year but that doesn't matter to him).
this guy purposely takes my posts out of context, i swear. :oldlol:

first of all, i said parker/manu were arguably as important as duncan in 2005 and that they were the MAIN cogs ~2006/2007.

[tpols]

he was one of the best offensive players in the league via rapm, and the suns had a winning record with him vs without him. suggesting that he didn't elevate his teammates play is silly nonsense, but i expect as much from a kobe fan.

Shaq averaged 15/9 to Duncan's 25/14 in the 2008 playoffs.. while Duncan also provided better defense.

Only a bitter LeBron fan whose jealous of the main man who has dominated his career could prop Shaq here.




more nonsense that has nothing to with what's being posted. take your red-herrings and straw man bs to the kobe/lebron threads. thanks in advance.

the reason duncan is able to "elevate" his teams play has more to do with the spurs TEAM and coach than anything else. duncan was essentially a role player last year, and the spurs kicked the heat's ass despite lebron dominating.

this is duncan's career in a nutshell though. stacked teams (greatest european players, and specialists - bruce bowen/horry etc), coaching and zero perspective from box score watchers. hilarious.

I agree that DuncAn has had great teams.. but he has always stuck through tough times.. for instance the 2009-2012 era.. where his team's stars were aging and the team was slumping.

Shaq bailed when he was no longer head alpha when he could've been apart of kobes best peak years and won titles. Instead he bounced around and ultimately never settled down anywhere.. obligating for one title where the refs and dwayne wade saved his ass while he dropped worse numbers that 2011 Duncan in the finals.


We all know though that you have an agenda for LeBron.. sucking his dick at every turn .. and thus will discredit Duncan at every opportunity you get. I don't even like Duncan and agree his last title is overrated but he always stuck through and was a great teammate.. something Shaq wasn't and especially your king wasn't as he ditched guys right and left as adversity popped up.

[mehyaM24]

Shaq averaged 15/9 to Duncan's 25/14 in the 2008 playoffs.. while Duncan also provided better defense.

i never compared 2008 shaq to 2008 duncan. fail.


I agree that DuncAn has had great teams.. but he has always stuck through tough times.. for instance the 2009-2012 era.. where his team's stars were aging and the team was slumping.

easy to do that when you're always surrounded by talent and coaching. its the same thing with kobe basically.

i didn't care to quote the rest of your post, because it was more of your usual "i love kobe" psycho babble.

good talk.

[IGOTGAME]

yes. he absolutely shredded the all-france league, winning mvps and championships. destroyed the nike summit tournament which really got him recognition.

duncan didn't carry anyone. david robinson's defense alone had him top 10 in rapm - which measures individual impact. the spurs also had one of the greatest perimeter defenders ever in bruce bowen along with kerr, the greatest 3 point shooter statistically. how about parker who picked apart the lakers defense in the playoffs? or manu and robinson being ~top 5 (entire nba) in winshares?

duncan "carrying" is a myth perpetuated by fantasy basketball nerds. lol @ that hyperbole.

when Tony Parker got to SAS he was a 17 year old with a set shot and a bunch of talent. he was not dominating Europe, he was a great talent out of Europe.

[T_L_P]

this guy purposely takes my posts out of context, i swear. :oldlol:

first of all, i said parker/manu were arguably as important as duncan in 2005 and that they were the MAIN cogs ~2006/2007.

See, this is where you prove you have no clue what you are talking about.

2005 RAPM:

Duncan (10.9, #1 in the NBA)
Parker (-0.1, not top 70)

PER:

Duncan (24.9)
Parker (12.0)

WS:

Duncan (3.5)
Parker (0.6)

WS/48:

Duncan (.191)
Parker (.032)

BPM:

Duncan (4.1)
Parker (-2.0)

Pop called Parker out halfway through the Finals because his play was really bad.

I've said 05 Manu > 05 Tim. Parker wasn't even a top 5 Spur in the Playoffs.

So I ask: how is Parker even close to Duncan in 05? He was inefficient as hell and his defense was putrid. The stats aren't close, and it isn't if you watched the games either (which, by your statement, shows you haven't seen any games).

05 Parker being in the same universe as 05 Tim. :roll: :roll: :roll:

[mehyaM24]

when Tony Parker got to SAS he was a 17 year old with a set shot and a bunch of talent. he was not dominating Europe, he was a great talent out of Europe.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Parker

i suggest you start educating yourself before making blanket statements.

[iamgine]

prime for prime. I think Duncan is better than Hakeem. Also, people like to forget about the part of Hakeems career that reflect negatively. Guards calling him a black hole, taking longer to develop into the force rookie and sophmore Duncan was and not lasting as long.
If you think Duncan's the better player then it's easier to put him in top 5. I personally don't think so though.

[mehyaM24]

See, this is where you prove you have no clue what you are talking about.

2005 RAPM:

Duncan (10.9, #1 in the NBA)
Parker (-0.1, not top 70)

PER:

Duncan (24.9)
Parker (12.0)

WS:

Duncan (3.5)
Parker (0.6)

WS/48:

Duncan (.191)
Parker (.032)

BPM:

Duncan (4.1)
Parker (-2.0)

Pop called Parker out halfway through the Finals because his play was really bad.

I've said 05 Manu > 05 Tim. Parker wasn't even a top 5 Spur in the Playoffs.

So I ask: how is Parker even close to Duncan in 05? He was inefficient as hell and his defense was putrid. The stats aren't close, and it isn't if you watched the games either (which, by your statement, shows you haven't seen any games).

05 Parker being in the same universe as 05 Tim. :roll: :roll: :roll:

the tandem of parker & ginobili (spurs' backcourt). not JUST parker. i've repeated this over and over again, yet u continue to hurl out the same bs. is this intentional on your part?

manu was top 7 in rapm that season, BTW.

[T_L_P]

the tandem of parker & ginobili (spurs' backcourt). not JUST parker. i've repeated this over and over again, yet u continue to hurl out the same bs.

manu was top 7 in rapm that season, BTW.

Comparing two players to one. :oldlol:

Is this kid even being serious right now? :roll:

[mehyaM24]

Comparing two players to one. :oldlol:

Is this kid even being serious right now? :roll:

the spurs' backcourt was more important than "duncan carrying". problem? could have sworn this was a team game. :confusedshrug:

[T_L_P]

the spurs' backcourt was more important than "duncan carrying". problem? could have sworn this was a team game. :confusedshrug:

Nobody said 'Duncan carried' in 05 though. You're the ultimate Strawman, and your posts are beyond stupid (again, comparing two players to one as if that's ever a fair fight). :roll:

Also, you said in one of your last posts that RAPM shows individual impact

Parker+Manu combined 05 RAPM: 7.0

Duncan's lone 05 RAPM: 10.9

Hold another L.

[tpols]

easy to do that when you're always surrounded by talent and coaching. its the same thing with kobe basically..


Shaq WAS surrounded by talent and coaching.. He had the best guard and coach in the league on his team when he left for more money lol..

Shaq than proceeded to surrounded himself with Dwayne wade, Steve Nash, LeBron James, Kevin garnett, Ray Allen, and Paul pierce and only had one extra ring to show for it.. I guess his team hopping really paid off in comparison to Duncan's persistence. :rolleyes:

[mehyaM24]

Nobody said 'Duncan carried' in 05 though. You're the ultimate Strawman, and your posts are beyond stupid (again, comparing two players to one as if that's ever a fair fight). :roll:
:oldlol: at acting like duncan fans don't believe he carried his team in 2005. hell, i remember when i brought up manu's play in 2005 and you scoffed at it. now you have him as one of the best players in 2005. just comical. :oldlol:

anyway, intiial and ONLY point is that duncan hasn't "carried" and that his longevity is overrated (especially if you guys don't think phoenix shaq didn't impact the game).

[KirbyPls]

Honestly, it depends on if you rank players in a pure vacuum based upon peaks, then there are probably 5-7 better players, but IMO, Duncan can only reasonably be ranked below MJ, Kareem, Shaq, and Russell (though I would take Duncan over Russ). He is by any combination of stats, accolades, eye test, longevity, impact, and ability to carry others, no worse than the fifth greatest player ever, and IMO, the only clear-cut better players on both sides of the ball (all things considered) are MJ and Kareem.

I am no Duncan fan, as my favorite player all-time would be comfortably in the top-5-7 if it weren't for Duncan. Can't stand him at all (basketball, stan reasons, as the dude is class and stoicism in his entire career), but I cannot deny his absolute greatness. The 2013 Finals sealed it for me, when the dude had to have it, he was the best player on the floor.

[IGOTGAME]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Parker

i suggest you start educating yourself before making blanket statements.

he was 19. rest of the post stands. I watched his career, he was the same guy getting benched for Speedy Claxton in the finals. He was not some star from day 1.

wait, this dude thinks being an MVP of an under 18 tourney is dominating Europe. Okay. you're done here.

[T_L_P]

:oldlol: at acting like duncan fans don't believe he carried his team in 2005. i remember when i brought up manu's play in 2005 and you scoffed at it. now you have him as one of the best players in 2005. just comical. :oldlol:

anyway, intiial and ONLY point is that duncan hasn't "carried" and that his longevity is overrated (especially if you guys don't think phoenix shaq didn't impact the game).

Parker+Manu combined 05 RAPM: 7.0

Duncan's lone 05 RAPM: 10.9

Duncan 05 RAPM minus Horry's 05 RAPM: 7.6

Hold another L.

[mehyaM24]

Shaq WAS surrounded by talent and coaching.. He had the best guard and coach in the league on his team when he left for more money lol..

Shaq than proceeded to surrounded himself with Dwayne wade, Steve Nash, LeBron James, Kevin garnett, Ray Allen, and Paul pierce and only had one extra ring to show for it.. I guess his team hopping really paid off in comparison to Duncan's persistence. :rolleyes:

wade was hurt that entire season & the heat team was WELL past their prime, hence them rebuilding the following season.

like i said, you're completely clueless. this will be my final post directed to you itt.

[KirbyPls]

I think James at his absolute best is a slightly, slightly better player in a vacuum, but unless LBJ gets at least two more rings and FMVPs with dominant performances, I can't rank James higher than Duncan's career if he never played another game, and that shit drives me nuts.

[T_L_P]

Honestly, it depends on if you rank players in a pure vacuum based upon peaks, then there are probably 5-7 better players, but IMO, Duncan can only reasonably be ranked below MJ, Kareem, Shaq, and Russell (though I would take Duncan over Russ). He is by any combination of stats, accolades, eye test, longevity, impact, and ability to carry others, no worse than the fifth greatest player ever, and IMO, the only clear-cut better players on both sides of the ball (all things considered) are MJ and Kareem.

I am no Duncan fan, as my favorite player all-time would be comfortably in the top-5-7 if it weren't for Duncan. Can't stand him at all (basketball, stan reasons, as the dude is class and stoicism in his entire career), but I cannot deny his absolute greatness. The 2013 Finals sealed it for me, when the dude had to have it, he was the best player on the floor.

:cheers:

[KirbyPls]

:cheers:

You are a good poster, and I realize that you annoy be sometimes, because I would rather believe what I want to about Duncav v. Lebron, but in reality, you, like your favorite player, are solid. :cheers:

[mehyaM24]

he was 19. rest of the post stands. I watched his career, he was the same guy getting benched for Speedy Claxton in the finals. He was not some star from day 1.

wait, this dude thinks being an MVP of an under 18 tourney is dominating Europe. Okay. you're done here.

ever heard of the nike hoop summit?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2LrZYQSXVA

he was dominating some of the BEST young talent ~around the world. continue on with your ignorance though.

[IGOTGAME]

ever heard of the nike hoop summit?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2LrZYQSXVA

he was dominating some of the BEST young talent ~around the world. continue on with your ignorance though.


dominating Europe does not mean dominating kids. admit you are being silly and we can move forward.

[mehyaM24]

dominating Europe does not mean dominating kids. admit you are being silly and we can move forward.
who else are you dominating before being drafted? you and tpols are ridiculously ignorant. :facepalm

[IGOTGAME]

who else are you dominating before being drafted? you and tpols are ridiculously ignorant. :facepalm

he was a professional basketball player at age 16(he was not dominating). By dominating Europe that would mean that he was dominating Euroleage and winning titles.

Parker was a talented prospect out of France with top notch athleticism and a shakey jump shot. not even close to the same thing.

[pauk]

He was a great player, but he was nowhere as prominent (talent/skill/productions/domination etc.) as at least 20-30 players i can mention to you..... i dont think he ever was the best player in the NBA and in a couple of his championship runs maybe not even Top 5 or Top 10... in his latest championship run he was not even Top 20.... his accolades (rings) in a couple where he wasnt "the man" is a result of EXTREME luck in terms of supporting cast, something which many all-time players have showed envy of, something you lately heard from Kobe Bryant himself in his recent interview....

I think Duncan is a top 10 player, but the moment he is ranked in top 5 is the moment people dont care about context...

[KirbyPls]

He was a great player, but he was nowhere as prominent (talent/skill/productions/domination etc.) as at least 20-30 players i can mention to you..... and his accolades (rings) in many where he wasnt "the man" is a result of EXTREME luck in terms of supporting cast, something which many all-time players have showed envy of, something you lately heard from Kobe Bryant himself in his recent interview....

I think Duncan is a top 10 player, but the moment he is ranked in top 5 is the moment people dont care about context...

Pauk, you're great, but just stop. Reality > nostalgia, and I like Lebron more than you do.

[T_L_P]

He was a great player, but he was nowhere as prominent (talent/skill/productions/domination etc.) as at least 20-30 players i can mention to you..... i dont think he ever was the best player in the NBA and in a couple of his championship runs maybe not even Top 5 or Top 10... in his latest championship run he was not even Top 20.... and his accolades (rings) in many where he wasnt "the man" is a result of EXTREME luck in terms of supporting cast, something which many all-time players have showed envy of, something you lately heard from Kobe Bryant himself in his recent interview....

I think Duncan is a top 10 player, but the moment he is ranked in top 5 is the moment people dont care about context...

Re: Journalist for Chicago Tribune says LeBron is DPOY until he retires


He is right... perhaps not until he retires, but yes...

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=9706176&postcount=42

Talent/skills are loose terms.

You're bullshitting if you think 20-30 players had better production/results/'domination' than Duncan (name 20 players who outdid 02-03 Duncan, name 10 who had a better Playoff run than 03 Duncan).

[pauk]

Pauk, you're great, but just stop. Reality > nostalgia, and I like Lebron more than you do.

I have no problem with respecting your opinion.... even though i think its absurd, i didnt get mad did i? I have explained mine to why i dont think he is top 5 all-time in my list... i suggest you move on like i did with yours....

[KirbyPls]

I have no problem with respecting your opinion.... and i have explained mine to why i dont think he is top 5 all-time in my list...

Fair enough my friend. :cheers:

[pauk]

Like i said, i think he is top 10.... but i explained (even though i can get much more into detail) why i dont think he is top 5.... thats it... dont shoot me please...

[SuperPippen]

He was a great player, but he was nowhere as prominent (talent/skill/productions/domination etc.) as at least 20-30 players i can mention to you..... i dont think he ever was the best player in the NBA and in a couple of his championship runs maybe not even Top 5 or Top 10... in his latest championship run he was not even Top 20.... his accolades (rings) in a couple where he wasnt "the man" is a result of EXTREME luck in terms of supporting cast, something which many all-time players have showed envy of, something you lately heard from Kobe Bryant himself in his recent interview....

I think Duncan is a top 10 player, but the moment he is ranked in top 5 is the moment people dont care about context...


:facepalm worthy post.


Do you know anything about Duncan's '03 post season run? In addition to the consistently great numbers he posted throughout that regular season - and throughout the majority oh his regular seasons - the man rampaged through the playoffs and CLOSED OUT A FINALS WITH A QUADRUPLE DOUBLE.


You seriously think that he was "nowhere near as prominent as at least 20-30 players?" Please. How can you delude yourself?


btw, where's that Jordan flop compliation at?

[mehyaM24]

good post pauk, but even i think you're underrating duncan a bit. in his prime, when we combine BOTH the regular season & playoffs, dude was clearly the best player in 1999 and 2003. his play in the finals cemented his case.

we can both agree he is NOWHERE in the top 5 (and somewhere in the top 10). we can definitely agree that he's been blessed with various talent and coaching - obviously..

[pauk]

These are the players i think reached a higher level than Duncan ever did in terms of overall talent and/or skill and/or productions and/or domination....

Michael Jordan
Kareem Abdul Jabbar
Wilt Chamberlain
Oscar Robertson
Elgin Baylor
Bill Russell
Jerry West
Larry Bird
Magic Johnson
Lebron James
Hakeem Olajuwon
Kobe Bryant
Shaquille O'Neal
Bob Pettit
Kevin Durant
Charles Barkley
Moses Malone
Karl Malone
Kevin Garnett
Julius Erving
David Robinson
Tracy McGrady
Dwyane Wade
George Gervin
Rick Barry
Bernard King
George Mikan

(no specific order)

Thats 27 players....... say all of these were in their prime (including Duncan) i would take all these 27 players over Duncan.... very easily....

Then there are some arguable ones..... like with Patrick Ewing, Walt Bellamy and so on....

[Heavincent]

pauk :roll:

[pauk]

pauk :roll:

Oh? Ok... tell me... which one of those players i mentioned do you think were LESSER talented than Duncan and i will tell you why you are wrong....

Pick one... just ONE.....

I challenge anybody here.... i will show you how much you are overrating Duncans level of talent....

[tpols]

pauk :roll:

mfer just listed tmac and Rick Barry's primes over Duncans..

Excuse me for a second...




http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/mjl.gif

[Sarcastic]

You can make a case, but it wouldn't be very strong. Jordan, Wilt, Magic, Russell, Kareem, Bird, and Shaq are all ahead of him. And very soon, if not already, Lebron will be ahead of him.

[SamuraiSWISH]

No because having watched him he wasn't definitively better than his contemporary KG. Let alone the previous eras Shaq, Hakeem, or even David Robinson.

[Milbuck]

These are the players i think reached a higher level than Duncan ever did in terms of overall talent and/or skill and/or productions and/or domination....

Michael Jordan
Kareem Abdul Jabbar
Wilt Chamberlain
Oscar Robertson
Elgin Baylor
Bill Russell
Jerry West
Larry Bird
Magic Johnson
Lebron James
Hakeem Olajuwon
Kobe Bryant
Shaquille O'Neal
Bob Pettit
Kevin Durant
Charles Barkley
Moses Malone
Karl Malone
Kevin Garnett
Julius Erving
David Robinson
Tracy McGrady
Dwyane Wade
George Gervin
Rick Barry
Bernard King
George Mikan

(no specific order)

Thats 27 players....... say all of these were in their prime (including Duncan) i would take all these 27 players over Duncan.... very easily....

Then there are some arguable ones..... like with Patrick Ewing, Walt Bellamy and so on....
:biggums:

[chazzy]

never go full pauk

[Graviton]

Pauk just dropped out of my Top 5 ISH posters after that post.

:biggums:

[RoundMoundOfReb]

These are the players i think reached a higher level than Duncan ever did in terms of overall talent and/or skill and/or productions and/or domination....

Michael Jordan
Kareem Abdul Jabbar
Wilt Chamberlain
Oscar Robertson
Elgin Baylor
Bill Russell
Jerry West
Larry Bird
Magic Johnson
Lebron James
Hakeem Olajuwon
Kobe Bryant
Shaquille O'Neal
Bob Pettit
Kevin Durant
Charles Barkley
Moses Malone
Karl Malone
Kevin Garnett
Julius Erving
David Robinson
Tracy McGrady
Dwyane Wade
George Gervin
Rick Barry
Bernard King
George Mikan

(no specific order)

Thats 27 players....... say all of these were in their prime (including Duncan) i would take all these 27 players over Duncan.... very easily....

Then there are some arguable ones..... like with Patrick Ewing, Walt Bellamy and so on....

If this is just PRIME the bolded are the only ones with a case....and almost all of them don't have Duncan's longevity.


edit: and LO freaking L at "very easily"

[AirFederer]

Yes. 5-7th.
MJ
Russ
Kareem/Magic
Tim
Bird

[ArbitraryWater]

all time great at "scoring, rebounding, etc" to me means somebody was the top 1-3 ever in that category.

Lmao, why?

Because you say so?

In terms of ATG players, people usually think TOP FIFTY..

Duncan IS an ATG defender, which beats shotblocking anyway.

[pauk]

I am not talking about accolades for gods sake but strictly actual individual basketball ability... Those players i mentioned i think were more prominent players than Duncan if you would remove accolades and see those players for what they are doing & how they are impacting the game up & down the court for 48 minutes in a game...

I dont care what you think about me based on this opinion... Duncan is in my top 10 based on mostly accolades being the criteria (a list which is personal for literally every person, there is no such official list, for a very good reason), not so much because of actual individual basketball ability... he was great in that department aswell dont get me wrong, but i personally dont think it was more prominent than somewhere around 20-30 players.... If he was, i would rank Duncan Top 5 or even Top 3.... or even Top 2... or maybe even Top 1 depending on how great of a individual ability he really possessed....

There is a reason Wilt Chamberlain is ranked so high, on some peoples lists even #1... despite not having that fancy accolades at all.... same goes with Oscar Robertson....

[Gabuyaux]

Duncan has 8x All-defensive 1st team selections and has never been DPOY? What a travesty.

[T_L_P]

I am not talking about accolades for gods sake but strictly actual individual basketball ability... Those players i mentioned i think were more prominent players than Duncan if you would remove accolades and see those players for what they are doing & how they are impacting the game up & down the court for 48 minutes in a game...

I dont care what you think about me based on this opinion... Duncan is in my top 10 based on mostly accolades being the criteria (a list which is personal for literally every person, there is no such official list, for a very good reason), not so much actual individual basketball ability... he was great in that department aswell dont get me wrong, but i personally dont think it was more prominent than somewhere around 20-30 players....

Tell me...what about Gervin/Barry/Pettit/T-Mac etc was better than prime Duncan?

You really must not have watched him at all in his prime. He was one of the top three defensive players in the league who completely carried an offense at his peak.

But, as I posted above, you think LeBron should have like 10+ DPOYs, which shows how little you really understand about the game.

[guy]

I am not talking about accolades for gods sake but strictly actual individual basketball ability... Those players i mentioned i think were more prominent players than Duncan if you would remove accolades and see those players for what they are doing & how they are impacting the game up & down the court for 48 minutes in a game...

I dont care what you think about me based on this opinion... Duncan is in my top 10 based on mostly accolades being the criteria (a list which is personal for literally every person, there is no such official list, for a very good reason), not so much because of actual individual basketball ability... he was great in that department aswell dont get me wrong, but i personally dont think it was more prominent than somewhere around 20-30 players.... If he was, i would rank Duncan Top 5 or even Top 3.... or even Top 2... or maybe even Top 1 depending on how great of a individual ability he really possessed....

There is a reason Wilt Chamberlain is ranked so high, on some peoples lists even #1... despite not having that fancy accolades at all.... same goes with Oscar Robertson....

Tell me more about George Mikans individual ability then :oldlol:

[Milbuck]

I am not talking about accolades for gods sake but strictly actual individual basketball ability... Those players i mentioned i think were more prominent players than Duncan if you would remove accolades and see those players for what they are doing & how they are impacting the game up & down the court for 48 minutes in a game...

I dont care what you think about me based on this opinion... Duncan is in my top 10 based on mostly accolades being the criteria (a list which is personal for literally every person, there is no such official list, for a very good reason), not so much because of actual individual basketball ability... he was great in that department aswell dont get me wrong, but i personally dont think it was more prominent than somewhere around 20-30 players.... If he was, i would rank Duncan Top 5 or even Top 3.... or even Top 2... or maybe even Top 1 depending on how great of a individual ability he really possessed....

There is a reason Wilt Chamberlain is ranked so high, on some peoples lists even #1... despite not having that fancy accolades at all....I'm honestly convinced you started watching when you started posting.

No person who watched 2003 Duncan drag that pile of shit to a championship could sit here and honestly say what you're saying. Bernard King? Really? Only reason I'm actually responding to this is because it seems like you actually think this :oldlol: :oldlol:

And lmfao at the old era picks like Mikan and Barry, we all know you've seen probably like 35 seconds of them playing on some random CavsFTW video, you're just putting them there for the sake of your agenda, which is to shit on Duncan.

[1987_Lakers]

These are the players i think reached a higher level than Duncan ever did in terms of overall talent and/or skill and/or productions and/or domination....

Michael Jordan
Kareem Abdul Jabbar
Wilt Chamberlain
Oscar Robertson
Elgin Baylor
Bill Russell
Jerry West
Larry Bird
Magic Johnson
Lebron James
Hakeem Olajuwon
Kobe Bryant
Shaquille O'Neal
Bob Pettit
Kevin Durant
Charles Barkley
Moses Malone
Karl Malone
Kevin Garnett
Julius Erving
David Robinson
Tracy McGrady
Dwyane Wade
George Gervin
Rick Barry
Bernard King
George Mikan

(no specific order)

Thats 27 players....... say all of these were in their prime (including Duncan) i would take all these 27 players over Duncan.... very easily....

Then there are some arguable ones..... like with Patrick Ewing, Walt Bellamy and so on....

Worst post ever.

King? Mikan? Gervin? Pettit? Get the F*** outta here!

[pauk]

Worst post ever.

King? Mikan? Gervin? Pettit? Get the F*** outta here!

Ok then remove King/Mikan/Gervin/Pettit if that makes you happy...... is it still "**** outta here" ?

[pauk]

I am willing to sacrifice you calling me whatever you wish.... I stand by my opinion, which is:

1. I think Tim Duncan had one of the 10 greatest careers of all time, not top 5.

2. I think Tim Duncan didnt possess one of the 20 (and arguably not even 30) greatest individual basketball abilities.

3. Because of point #2, there is at the very least 20 players i would take over Duncan.....

[Fudge]

Pauk might be a darkhorse for GOAT ISH troll.

[T_L_P]

I am willing to sacrifice you calling me whatever you wish.... I stand by my opinion, which is:

1. I think Tim Duncan had one of the 10 greatest careers of all time, not top 5.

2. I think Tim Duncan didnt possess one of the 20 (and arguably not even 30) greatest individual basketball abilities.

3. Because of point #2, there is at the very least 20 players i would take over Duncan.....

I guess a lot of this is definitions...like I said, skills and talent are just words.

Karl Malone never approached what Duncan did in 02 and 03, especially in the Playoffs. He was playing on slightly faster teams with the 2nd best pure PG ever and yet he still wasn't statistically better than Duncan. And Tim certainly beats him in the non-statistically fields (leadership, ability to raise the play of his teammates and, most importantly, defense).

This is pretty much the same for most of the players you listed. I'm sure a good 15 of them had some better Regular Seasons...but when the chips are on the table, you can't convince me (or most of the people here) that Dr. J, Pettit, Durant, T-Mac, Baylor, Oscar, King, Mikan, Gervin were more effective and more impactful basketball players than prime Duncan. Can't do it. And the idea that these players are 'very easily' better than prime Duncan is just laughable.

You're a fraud pauk. You think LeBron James should have 10 DPOYs and you can't explain at all how these players were better than Duncan...just hyperbole and repetition.

[LeBird]

Russell, Wilt, KAJ, Bird, Magic and Jordan.

Nope. The absolute highest is 7th IMO. But still debatable.


Yes, but it is a reach. KAJ, MJ, Wilt and Russell in whatever order are the clear top 4. You can make a case, though, for Duncan being 5th. The next group is Shaq, Magic, Bird, Duncan, Kobe, Hakeem, LeBron in some order. If your criteria heavily weights winning and longevity you can argue for Duncan as 5th. As far as dominance goes he simply was not as great a player as the top 4 or Shaq, Magic, Bird, LeBron although he was better than Hakeem and Kobe. Magic, Bird have poor longevity. Hakeem won "only" 2 rings and most of his legacy is based on what he did over three years. LeBron is still a work in progress, although he actually has surpassed Bird, Magic in longevity.

The thing is, though, if you are going to weight winning and longevity to elevate him past superior players like Magic, Bird you also logically have to elevate Kobe past them. Shaq's longevity is underrated and solid and I don't think one ring makes a difference as far as all-time rankings go but I can see someone doing so. Kobe has more rings than Bird, as many as Magic and blows both away in longevity. If you have Duncan 5th, you should logically have Kobe right on his gearbox.

I notice longevity is invoked frequently with Duncan but never with KAJ. KAJ's peak play rivals that of anyone, he had a 11 year prime and produced 17 elite seasons, 18 all-star level seasons and 20 seasons as a starter to have the clear GOAT longevity. Yet I rarely see longevity invoked where KAJ is concerned. KAJ was in the conference finals (14 years) almost as long as MJ played (15 years, with one season being an 18 game season and another a 17 game season) yet longevity is never factored in when those two are compared.

A lot of the Duncan stuff is a due to being prisoners of the moment--hence special factors to promote him that usually are ignored by most fans in other cases--but the truth is there is not much to separate #5 all-time from #10 all-time. LeBron could clearly separate himself from that second group and join the first but he is not there yet. Duncan could be 5th all-time or 10th all-time and similarly solid cases could be made for either.

This is actually a great point. If you have Duncan that high because of longevity, then the above follows. And KAJ should basically be your GOAT.

[LeBird]

Its funny how people can never seem to take this into consideration. Teams in the 80s took far more FGs than teams from the 90s and 00s.

Teams may have, but the star players are more or less the same.

[Anaximandro1]

TOP 5 easily

not even debatable, unless you choose to remain blind.



1) Post-season Ranks -> Duncan entered the record books

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-kLSSSRf6-Go/VORzeNy1f6I/AAAAAAAAD0k/K0tEXtPTeeA/s1600/27.jpg


2)TOP individual Playoff Runs (Title Runs since 1974) -> Duncan #2


BPM -> Box Score Estimate of the points per 100 Possessions a player contributed above a league-average player, translated to an average team

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-bsqHo2AUZ_o/VNngkPAie1I/AAAAAAAADxA/wvbBCAwmKI8/s1600/8.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-r3cCs-UQ3ao/VNJ_uYMxSYI/AAAAAAAADvA/VORz90Z5rJs/s1600/6.jpg


3) Playoffs -> Prime Duncan has better stats than Prime Shaq (higher BPM, WS/48 ... defense matters a lot)

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-pWcdp1I6n4s/VN5goBaUhVI/AAAAAAAADzQ/zhJT9ECdYa8/s1600/20.jpg


4) NBA Finals -> the second best combination of O/D, only defeated by Ray Allen

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-WHZTWy3n-0A/VNffUGmjdOI/AAAAAAAADvs/iYT_IO919gw/s1600/3.jpg


5) Carry the Load -> Jordan and Duncan had to work harder than Magic and Kobe

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-9e0_EaeaUPA/VN5a5NnnMFI/AAAAAAAADyw/jHSsgACPxJM/s1600/22.jpg


6) Duncan played in the Western Conference, competed against all time greats in their primes ... Tim was a ruthless killing machine in the playoffs.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-dqCSLxOe2Wk/VOJiOfuQL3I/AAAAAAAAD0U/pCwTWXJg6G4/s1600/26.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-h6mQeKNkxbo/VNJ_sqknSqI/AAAAAAAADuc/8Yv_Fc9l7kY/s1600/4.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-hvl1NMojSHQ/VNziONYK8yI/AAAAAAAADyE/Lbt6ZlYBEEc/s1600/18.jpg

[T_L_P]

TOP 5 easily

not even debatable, unless you choose to remain blind.



1) Post-season Ranks -> Duncan entered the record books

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-kLSSSRf6-Go/VORzeNy1f6I/AAAAAAAAD0k/K0tEXtPTeeA/s1600/27.jpg


2)TOP individual Playoff Runs (Title Runs since 1974) -> Duncan #2


BPM -> Box Score Estimate of the points per 100 Possessions a player contributed above a league-average player, translated to an average team

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-bsqHo2AUZ_o/VNngkPAie1I/AAAAAAAADxA/wvbBCAwmKI8/s1600/8.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-r3cCs-UQ3ao/VNJ_uYMxSYI/AAAAAAAADvA/VORz90Z5rJs/s1600/6.jpg


3) Playoffs -> Prime Duncan has better stats than Prime Shaq (higher BPM, WS/48 ... defense matters a lot)

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-pWcdp1I6n4s/VN5goBaUhVI/AAAAAAAADzQ/zhJT9ECdYa8/s1600/20.jpg


4) NBA Finals -> the second best combination of O/D, only defeated by Ray Allen

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-WHZTWy3n-0A/VNffUGmjdOI/AAAAAAAADvs/iYT_IO919gw/s1600/3.jpg


5) Carry the Load -> Jordan and Duncan had to work harder than Magic and Kobe

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-9e0_EaeaUPA/VN5a5NnnMFI/AAAAAAAADyw/jHSsgACPxJM/s1600/22.jpg


6) Duncan played in the Western Conference, competed against all time greats in their primes ... Tim was a ruthless killing machine in the playoffs.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-dqCSLxOe2Wk/VOJiOfuQL3I/AAAAAAAAD0U/pCwTWXJg6G4/s1600/26.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-h6mQeKNkxbo/VNJ_sqknSqI/AAAAAAAADuc/8Yv_Fc9l7kY/s1600/4.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-hvl1NMojSHQ/VNziONYK8yI/AAAAAAAADyE/Lbt6ZlYBEEc/s1600/18.jpg

Always providing the goods, tbh..

Duncan played the game the right way. 100% commitment to the team, with cerebral play that made others better and allowed him to take over when needed.

[ArbitraryWater]

Love how the Kobe fans ALWAYS turn on Shaq in any discussion he's in :oldlol:

When it's Kobe v.s. Duncan you would never hear this stuff...

Anyway, I don't think Duncan can match Shaq.... Shaq's better at his peak, he destroyed teams, got them into foul trouble, drew doubles and triples, had opponents dictate their game plan after him..... that's domination only Jordan/Wilt/Kareem possessed for multiple years...

Duncan's pro's are longevity, leadership.... He's one of the best leaders ever, defenders, rebounders... he can anchor a team on both sides, but he won't ever give me the offensive impact of a Shaquille O'Neal, and I feel it's too big to overcome. He never had the offense go through him as clearly as with other ATG's after '06. The guards did alot of the damage that Duncan was responsible for in the early '00's when he carried mediocre teams.

Is he better than Kobe? Yeah... being one of the best passers among bigs ever helps (think Walton level).

One thing I agree with tpols with, it is super hard to rank.... After Wilt/Shaq/LeBron, I think you could take just about anyone between Bird, Magic, Duncan, Hakeem, Russell..... Hakeem could possibly be 6.

Not Kobe, though... On an individual level he isn't near those guys. He doesn't have the defensive impact of the other greats, the offensive control (over the ENTIRE GAME) that Magic had, and neither the all-around game of a LeBron or Bird. He's just not that dominant. Tier below, with Dirk, Moses.

BTW: I no longer consider pauk a good poster.

[Odinn]

MJ, Kareem and Russell are top 3 in my book and that's certain.

Then we have Bird, Shaq, Wilt, Magic, Duncan and LeBron to complete the 5.
IMO, there are things can be said in each one's favour. I prefer completing with Bird and Shaq. I don't think Magic, Duncan and LeBron don't have cases as strong as the other 3.

[swagga]

These are the players i think reached a higher level than Duncan ever did in terms of overall talent and/or skill and/or productions and/or domination....

Michael Jordan
Kareem Abdul Jabbar
Wilt Chamberlain
Oscar Robertson
Elgin Baylor
Bill Russell
Jerry West
Larry Bird
Magic Johnson
Lebron James
Hakeem Olajuwon
Kobe Bryant
Shaquille O'Neal
Bob Pettit
Kevin Durant
Charles Barkley
Moses Malone
Karl Malone
Kevin Garnett
Julius Erving
David Robinson
Tracy McGrady
Dwyane Wade
George Gervin
Rick Barry
Bernard King
George Mikan

(no specific order)

Thats 27 players....... say all of these were in their prime (including Duncan) i would take all these 27 players over Duncan.... very easily....

Then there are some arguable ones..... like with Patrick Ewing, Walt Bellamy and so on....

you suck dick doe. that's some of the most retarded shit i've read on this board, it's that bad.

[Thorpesaurous]

I've said this a bunch of times, but it's weird how few guys have won multiple MVPs, and multiple titles. The list forever was Russ, Wilt, Kareem, Magic, Larry, and Jordan, which coincidentally seems to overlap really heavily with the consensus top of the top, although the order may vary.

Now Duncan and Lebron have both reached those thresholds of multiple titles and multiple MVPs.

So at this point I don't really look at a top 5, I just look at those guys who reach those two things as the elite of the elite. The top tier.


The guy I'm not sure about is Mikan. I'm not sure if a real MVP existed at that time, or if the game was even similar enough to count. Honestly the game that Russell played looks more like the modern game than it does the Mikan game, which is really saying something.


All the other data. Scoring titles, all league finishes, top whatever MVP finishes, etc, to me are usefull in sorting things within the tiers.

[r0drig0lac]

Pauk just dropped out of my Top 5 ISH posters after that post.

:biggums:
:roll:

[Jlamb47]

Russell = Ben Wallace
Wilt = Lesser Shaq

1. Michael Jordan
2. Tim Duncan
3. Kareem Abdul Jabbar
4. Kobe Bryant
5. Shaquille Oneal
6. Larry bird
7. Magic Johnson
8. Lebron James
9. Hakeem Olujawon
10. ??

[RightTwoCensor]

That's what I hate about player rankings. People respect different eras differently, most haven't even watched any era but the current one.

[mehyaM24]

Parker+Manu combined 05 RAPM: 7.0

Duncan's lone 05 RAPM: 10.9

Duncan 05 RAPM minus Horry's 05 RAPM: 7.6

Hold another L.


your point? you're an idiot if you think i ONLY use rapm to evaulate and deduce a players net impact (i used winshares & raw stats to make a few points above).

BTW, fix your stats:
https://sites.google.com/site/rapmstats/2005-npi

manu was #1 in all of rapm in 2005. clown.

bump

never got a response after this. is T_L_P ok? i personally don't think manu was better than duncan that year, but it goes to show you how much impact dude had.

https://sites.google.com/site/rapmstats/2003-rapm
http://ascreamingcomesacrossthecourt.blogspot.com/2014/03/1999-rapm-non-prior-and-prior-informed.html

^^ and this goes to show you kg and shaq were still as impactful as duncan around the time of his "best" seasons.

[T_L_P]

bump

never got a response after this. is T_L_P ok? i personally don't think manu was better than duncan that year, but it goes to show you how much impact dude had.

https://sites.google.com/site/rapmstats/2003-rapm
http://ascreamingcomesacrossthecourt.blogspot.com/2014/03/1999-rapm-non-prior-and-prior-informed.html

^^ and this goes to show you kg and shaq were still as impactful as duncan around the time of his "best" seasons.

In the Playoffs, Manu > Tim. I said a while back that they were 1a/b, but I rewatched the Playoffs recently and said I think it was Manu overall. Again, you're playing Strawman here. Manu Ginobili is a superstar, basically an all time great. His offensive output in limited possessions is mind-blowing.

Funny you say the Stats-for-the-NBA numbers are wrong even though they're the exact ones you've been using for a while now (see: your 'best player in x year' threads).

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10913184&postcount=12

Of course, when they favour Tim they are wrong though.

https://sites.google.com/site/rapmstats/2001-npi-rapm

And this goes to show you pre-peak Duncan was as good as Shaq in his best season(s).

Regarding 03: you were just saying RAPM isn't the end-all, be-all. Now it seems like you are. Compare Shaq's best Playoffs to Duncan's in other statistical fields (which you said you use to measure impact along with the RAPM):

00 Shaq: .224 WS/48, 7.2 BPM

03 Duncan: .279 WS/48, 11.6 BPM

:eek:

--

Comparing 05 Parker to 05 Tim, then backpeddling by saying you meant 2 players were more valuable than 1. The 01 backcourt of Kobe/Fisher was more valuable than Shaq too, dickwad. :oldlol:

[mehyaM24]

In the Playoffs, Manu > Tim. I said a while back that they were 1a/b, but I rewatched the Playoffs recently and said I think it was Manu overall. Again, you're playing Strawman here. Manu Ginobili is a superstar, basically an all time great. His offensive output in limited possessions is mind-blowing.

maybe so, but i wouldn't say he was the spurs' best player.

i've gone on record claiming the duo of parker and manu (aka their backcourt) was more important than what duncan and his lonesome brought to the table (stop denying duncan fans say he was THE most important part of that spurs team).


Funny you say the Stats-for-the-NBA numbers are wrong even though they're the exact ones you've been using for a while now (see: your 'best player in x year' threads).

they're not wrong. they're just not 100% RAPM. they're various forms of xRAPM, which is better than nothing and the best we have to date when evaluating players in the 90's (what i used them for).


https://sites.google.com/site/rapmstats/2001-npi-rapm

And this goes to show you pre-peak Duncan was as good as Shaq in his best season(s).

in the playoffs, that is where they separated themselves. you keep trying to paint me as this bised shaq fan - but i've already said duncan in 1999 and 2003 > shaq and kg (only that their impact was similar).

it's no different than 2001 shaq & timmy

shaq had a higher player efficiency rating in the playoffs along with more ws/48



Regarding 03: you were just saying RAPM isn't the end-all, be-all. Now it seems like you are. Compare Shaq's best Playoffs to Duncan's in other statistical fields (which you said you use to measure impact along with the RAPM):

i'm using it as a tool. it's only one tool, and the best one of them all, but still, one of many ways to evaluate a players impact (statistically).

for example, shaq also had a higher PER than duncan in the postseason


00 Shaq: .224 WS/48, 7.2 BPM

03 Duncan: .279 WS/48, 11.6 BPM

shaq had a higher PER, better RAPM, and more dominant series in the postseason. by all metrics, HE carried that season.


Comparing 05 Parker to 05 Tim, then backpeddling by saying you meant 2 players were more valuable than 1. No shit, Einstein. :oldlol:

so basically you admit the back court was more important to the spurs' success than their front court? :applause:

and once again - you're only using RAPM numbers. i go by a number of advanced metrics.

[T_L_P]

maybe so, but i wouldn't say he was the spurs' best player.

i've gone on record claiming the duo of parker and manu (aka their backcourt) was more important than what duncan and his lonesome brought to the table (stop denying duncan fans say he was THE most important part of that spurs team).



they're not wrong. they're just not 100% RAPM. they're various forms of xRAPM, which is better than nothing and the best we have to date when evaluating players in the 90's (what i used them for).



in the playoffs, that is where they separated themselves. you keep trying to paint me as this bised shaq fan - but i've already said duncan in 1999 and 2003 > shaq and kg (only that their impact was similar).

it's no different than 2001 shaq & timmy

shaq had a higher player efficiency rating in the playoffs along with more ws/48




i'm using it as a tool. it's only one tool, and the best one of them all, but still, one of many ways to evaluate a players impact (statistically).

for example, shaq also had a higher PER than duncan in the postseason



shaq had a higher PER, better RAPM, and more dominant series in the postseason. by all metrics, HE carried that season.



so basically you admit the back court was more important to the spurs' success than their front court? :applause:

and once again - you're only using RAPM numbers. i go by a number of advanced metrics.

Not gonna spend much time addressing this: it's mostly BS with you shifting the goalposts.

1.) Can I see some 1999-00 RAPM numbers?

2.) Read my edit. 01 Fisher/Kobe was more important than Shaq, just like 05 Manu/Parker were more important than Duncan, by your logic.

3.) Duncan's best Playoff run is better than Shaq's in WS, WS/48 and BPM (by considerable margins). PER is a nothing but an offensive stat, the creator of it has even said as much.

https://sites.google.com/site/rapmstats/2007-rapm

And considering his WS/PER/etc, you can admit Duncan was the league's best in 07, correct (supported by the RAPM numbers you endorse)?

[mehyaM24]

Not gonna spend much time addressing this: it's mostly BS with you shifting the goalposts.

1.) Can I see some 1999-00 RAPM numbers?

aka "i dont have a rebuttal" - no problem, bud. didn't think so.

http://ascreamingcomesacrossthecourt.blogspot.com/2014/03/2000-rapm-non-prior-and-prior-informed.html

^^ what you want to do is look at RPI (100% clear-cut rapm).


2.) Read my edit. 01 Fisher/Kobe was more important than Shaq, just like 05 Manu/Parker were more important than Duncan, by your logic.

during the regular season? no. fisher was hurt for like 80% of that year. it was in the playoffs where he left his mark, hitting everything and anything he hoisted up. in the playoffs (not the finals), you could argue kobe & derek brought more impact than shaq. i have no problem admitting that.

then again, i'm not you. a biased clown.


3.) Duncan's best Playoff run is better than Shaq's in WS, WS/48 and BPM (by considerable margins). PER is a nothing but an offensive stat, the creator of it has even said as much.

PER also takes into account blocks and steals, so no, its not just an offensive stat. 2k shaq bests duncan in PER, RAPM, xRAPM which IMO beats out duncan's 2003 campaign.

simply watching the two play, though, it couldn't be more obvious. shaq was infinitely better in 2000 (argabuly the GOAT) than duncan was in 2003.

i can guarantee you were NOT watching the nba ~ the 1999-00 season. i would put money on that too. :oldlol:

[CP343]

It's not a retarded era its a retarded message board..

:oldlol:

[Badazzwriter]

Kobe>>duncan, timmy knows this in his heart

[Chadwin]

Yes, but it is a reach. KAJ, MJ, Wilt and Russell in whatever order are the clear top 4. You can make a case, though, for Duncan being 5th. The next group is Shaq, Magic, Bird, Duncan, Kobe, Hakeem, LeBron in some order. If your criteria heavily weights winning and longevity you can argue for Duncan as 5th. As far as dominance goes he simply was not as great a player as the top 4 or Shaq, Magic, Bird, LeBron although he was better than Hakeem and Kobe. Magic, Bird have poor longevity. Hakeem won "only" 2 rings and most of his legacy is based on what he did over three years. LeBron is still a work in progress, although he actually has surpassed Bird, Magic in longevity.

The thing is, though, if you are going to weight winning and longevity to elevate him past superior players like Magic, Bird you also logically have to elevate Kobe past them. Shaq's longevity is underrated and solid and I don't think one ring makes a difference as far as all-time rankings go but I can see someone doing so. Kobe has more rings than Bird, as many as Magic and blows both away in longevity. If you have Duncan 5th, you should logically have Kobe right on his gearbox.

I notice longevity is invoked frequently with Duncan but never with KAJ. KAJ's peak play rivals that of anyone, he had a 11 year prime and produced 17 elite seasons, 18 all-star level seasons and 20 seasons as a starter to have the clear GOAT longevity. Yet I rarely see longevity invoked where KAJ is concerned. KAJ was in the conference finals (14 years) almost as long as MJ played (15 years, with one season being an 18 game season and another a 17 game season) yet longevity is never factored in when those two are compared.

A lot of the Duncan stuff is a due to being prisoners of the moment--hence special factors to promote him that usually are ignored by most fans in other cases--but the truth is there is not much to separate #5 all-time from #10 all-time. LeBron could clearly separate himself from that second group and join the first but he is not there yet. Duncan could be 5th all-time or 10th all-time and similarly solid cases could be made for either.

peak Hakeem>peak Duncan