Is Oscar Robertson overrated?

[jongib369]

http://youtu.be/q5kUALT8p9Y

http://i.usatoday.net/communitymanager/_photos/game-on/2010/10/22/1ablog-oscarrobertsonx-large.jpg

:biggums:

[pauk]

Meh... Tim Duncan >

[OldSchoolBBall]

His scoring and especially rebounding were inflated due to the extreme pace of the era, but I still think he's be a 24-27 ppg/6-7 reb/8-10 apg player at his peak today.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Yes. Poor man's LeBron.

[LAZERUSS]

His scoring and especially rebounding were inflated due to the extreme pace of the era, but I still think he's be a 24-27 ppg/6-7 reb/8-10 apg player at his peak today.

:applause: :applause: :applause:

:cheers:

[ShawkFactory]

His scoring and especially rebounding were inflated due to the extreme pace of the era, but I still think he's be a 24-27 ppg/6-7 reb/8-10 apg player at his peak today.
With elite intangibles. He'd win some rings in this era.

[Done_And_Done]

What a tank. I bet he could have been a cross athlete if he wanted.

[KyrieTheFuture]

He's barely even rated

[CP343]

He's barely even rated

This. He seems to be the least talked about guy that is arguably in the top 10.

[aj1987]

His scoring and especially rebounding were inflated due to the extreme pace of the era, but I still think he's be a 20-23 ppg/4-5 reb/6-7 apg player at his peak today.
Fixed.

Dude was basically Wilt-lite. A statpadder. Nothing more than that.

[pudman13]

This was very poorly argued. At one point they say he padded his stats, and then they complain that his numbers declined when he played with Kareem (and won a title.) Which do you want??

They also accuse Oscar of "stat padding," yet the term "triple double" didn't even exist during his playing career.

The fact is, anyone who watches any of those games in the Bucks' championship season can see just how good he still was, and why his "lesser numbers" in the context of a more well-rounded team don't mean there was any "decline" at all. Kareem says he was the greatest, and watching those games makes me think he's as fundamentally sound as anyone who ever played the game; he looked to me like the best player in the world.

The arguments in favor of West in this video are certainly better than the arguments against Oscar.

I think the lack of video of Oscar in his prime counts mightily against him, and so does the lack of flash in his game. If anything, he's underrated, as his ranking has declined quite a bit in modern years, with people only remembering him as at he guy who averaged a triple double, which is not the thing that made him great.

[Tarik One]

This. He seems to be the least talked about guy that is arguably in the top 10.
Because he was a very bitter ball player throughout his career. The quintessential "Angry Black Man"

[jongib369]

What a tank. I bet he could have been a cross athlete if he wanted.
He's built like a Jordan/Charles hybrid

[aj1987]

This was very poorly argued. At one point they say he padded his stats, and then they complain that his numbers declined when he played with Kareem (and won a title.) Which do you want??

You can't statpad yourself to a title. You need to play team ball.

[Marchesk]

Fixed.

Dude was basically Wilt-lite. A statpadder. Nothing more than that.

Time travel Kareem to Oscar's rookie season and see how his career plays out.

[Pointguard]

A couple of underhanded things the narrator said.

She said the year he "nearly averaged a triple double his team had a losing record." Ignoring the fact that the year he averaged a triple double they had a winning record. Heck they made the playoffs and had a winning record four of the five years he averaged a triple double over the years.

Never talked about his intelligence, or at least, I missed it if they did.

I rarely ever see Oscar rated at all.

[jongib369]

Time travel Kareem to Oscar's rookie season and see how his career plays out.
Either that or team him up with Wilt early in their careers and the Celtics are in for some trouble

[aj1987]

Time travel Kareem to Oscar's rookie season and see how his career plays out.
A good PG playing with one of the GOAT centers.... :rolleyes:

If you haven't noticed, I put peak Oscar stats at 23/5/7. Stop being insecure, grandpa.


Time travel MJ to Wilt's teams and they would win every title.
Time travel Kobe to the '60 and he would literally rape every guard in the league.

[Milbuck]

I don't think he's overrated, but I do get annoyed with the people who jizz over his triple double seasons and overall raw stats, as if there's nothing whatsoever that needs to be factored in when considering those stats. I think he'd still be a great player but anyone who thinks he's sniffing 30-10-10 today is delusional.

[ShawkFactory]

A good PG playing with one of the GOAT centers.... :rolleyes:

If you haven't noticed, I put peak Oscar stats at 23/5/7. Stop being insecure, grandpa.


Time travel MJ to Wilt's teams and they would win every title.
Time travel Kobe to the '60 and he would literally rape every guard in the league.
Why was he just a "good" PG? Did you watch him play?

[jongib369]

A good PG playing with one of the GOAT centers.... :rolleyes:

If you haven't noticed, I put peak Oscar stats at 23/5/7. Stop being insecure, grandpa.


Time travel MJ to Wilt's teams and they would win every title.
Time travel Kobe to the '60 and he would literally rape every guard in the league.
Kobe would definitely adjust and get his. He'd cause Jerry and Oscar fits....but it works both ways...Kobe is strong but he'd get abused by a guard like Oscar. Even today with 5 seconds back to the basket

https://grassrootswritersguild.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/oscar11.jpg

[swagga]

his game wouldn't really translate in this era. great player but not made for the modern space based game.

15/6/8 on 40% with good D and intangibles.

no hating, i just don't see a penetration based guard without a jumper putting more points. Look at john wall, absolutely ELITE athletically, significantly better range than oscar, on a team with very good spacing (important!) and he isn't a big time scorer.

Also, posting up PGs don't get too many advantages in today's game so that facet of oscar's game wouldn't amount too much.

[aj1987]

Kobe would definitely adjust and get his. He'd cause Jerry and Oscar fits....but it works both ways...Kobe is strong but he'd get abused by a guard like Oscar. Even today with 5 seconds back to the basket

https://grassrootswritersguild.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/oscar11.jpg
What is that picture supposed to prove?

Again, I NEVER called Oscar a scrub. I just said that he would average ~23/5/7 today. Very good numbers. That does't change the fact that the dude was basically a statpadder a la Wilt.

[Milbuck]

Kobe would definitely adjust and get his. He'd cause Jerry and Oscar fits....but it works both ways...Kobe is strong but he'd get abused by a guard like Oscar. Even today with 5 seconds back to the basket

https://grassrootswritersguild.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/oscar11.jpg
Point me to the footage that unquestionably shows he'd abuse defensive prime Kobe.

[swagga]

Kobe would definitely adjust and get his. He'd cause Jerry and Oscar fits....but it works both ways...Kobe is strong but he'd get abused by a guard like Oscar. Even today with 5 seconds back to the basket

https://grassrootswritersguild.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/oscar11.jpg

because posting up point guards abuse kobe:rolleyes: .. or because posting up point guards have been a main cog on championship teams in the past 20 years (heat, mavs, lakers, celtics, spurs, shaq lakers, young duncan spurs, detroit, bulls, bad boys detroit, MAGIC finally!) ..... because there is no way it's related to changes in the game, implementation of zones :rolleyes: . No way :rolleyes:

If you want to troll you could say jordan was a posting up pg, but 2nd 3peat jordan wasn't the pg anymore and he wasn't posting that much in his first 3peat.

btw, laz why don't you log into your main account?

[LAZERUSS]

Oscar in today's NBA?

C'mon...he'd be run over by the likes of Chris Paul and Steve Nash.

[swagga]

Oscar in today's NBA?

C'mon...he'd be run over by the likes of Chris Paul and Steve Nash.

yea doe I like you manning up and coming here with your main account. show these young nigs where it's at homie. tell em how the game is identical now like it was back then. Tell em that player A and player B had the same impact in the 80s, and that player B and player C had the same impact in the 70s, and that player D played in player's C era and was a beast => player D would dominate right now.

Tell em homie.:hammerhead:

[Pointguard]

I don't think he's overrated, but I do get annoyed with the people who jizz over his triple double seasons and overall raw stats, as if there's nothing whatsoever that needs to be factored in when considering those stats. I think he'd still be a great player but anyone who thinks he's sniffing 30-10-10 today is delusional.
I rarely see people gush over his triple doubles, nobody has done it here either.

But I will say it was impressive because Cousey never got 10 assist and no PG ever got to ten rebounds til this day. He did them both and got to the 30 point threshold which few ever get to as well. Anytime you set a standard you are a Trailblazer and it was impressive. He did three things that specialist rarely ever do, and he did them together. This along with other greats calling him among the smartest players as well.

It would be wrong of you to down play a guy today that set three super high standards together in one year (much less all three being the highest ever at their position). That context is the one context that transfers in time.

[Dro]

Being from Indianapolis, having seen a lot of footage that you guys have not seen that my grandmother used to have growing up(she was one of his biggest fans). Hearing all the stories from around here and seeing all his plaques and achievements in Bankers Life and Crispus Attucks...I'd have to say no, he's not overrated...

[ArbitraryWater]

Fixed.

Dude was basically Wilt-lite. A statpadder. Nothing more than that.

wow :facepalm

[pudman13]

BTW--the best thing about that video was the recognition of Jerry West as an elite defensive player.

[Dro]

You can't statpad yourself to a title. You need to play team ball.
Which is exactly what he did. What are you even talking about? Are you trolling or being serious?

[aj1987]

wow :facepalm
Let me change my earlier stance on Oscar, LeTurd stan. Oscar from 2004-today would've basically averaged 30/11/15 in this weak ass era. He probably would've won 8 MVP's and 5-6 rings.


Which is exactly what he did. What are you even talking about? Are you trolling or being serious?
Jesus Christ. Read his post, the one which I quoted. He started winning after he stopped statpadding and started to play team ball.

[Dro]

A good PG playing with one of the GOAT centers.... :rolleyes:

If you haven't noticed, I put peak Oscar stats at 23/5/7. Stop being insecure, grandpa.


Time travel MJ to Wilt's teams and they would win every title.
Time travel Kobe to the '60 and he would literally rape every guard in the league.
Agenda recognized....

[ArbitraryWater]

Let me change my earlier stance on Oscar, LeTurd stan. Oscar from 2004-today would've basically averaged 30/11/15 in this weak ass era. He probably would've won 8 MVP's and 5-6 rings.


Jesus Christ. Read his post, the one which I quoted. He started winning after he stopped statpadding and started to play team ball.

Agenda detected... will you ever stop trolling?

[pudman13]

He started winning after he stopped statpadding and started to play team ball.

He started winning when he was traded to a better team.

[aj1987]

Agenda detected... will you ever stop trolling?
GTFOH, LeTurd stan. You should be the last one to talk. You're one of the worst posters on this board. On par with Russwest and Kenneth.


Agenda recognized....

Yeah, no agenda in the post which I quoted though. Stop being dense, dude. You're actually a good poster.

[Milbuck]

I rarely see people gush over his triple doubles, nobody has done it here either.

But I will say it was impressive because Cousey never got 10 assist and no PG ever got to ten rebounds til this day. He did them both and got to the 30 point threshold which few ever get to as well. Anytime you set a standard you are a Trailblazer and it was impressive. He did three things that specialist rarely ever do, and he did them together. This along with other greats calling him among the smartest players as well.

It would be wrong of you to down play a guy today that set three super high standards together in one year (much less all three being the highest ever at their position). That context is the one context that transfers in time.
I've seen a fair amount of people talk about it, maybe not in this thread but it does happen. Btw his peak statistical season, adjusted for today's pace and on a per 40 min basis (he's not averaging 45-46 mpg today), is 22/7/8. I never said he wouldn't be a great player, he would, but I just don't see him knocking on the door of the top 10 all time list if he was playing today.

[swagga]

i'd like to hear some reasoning as to why oscar would do well today. And please no stats and other bullshit comparison. I like the player but I just don't see him doing well in this era.

Real talk as to how he'd fit in a spacing based game that greatly diminishes pg post play impact.

[pudman13]

Real talk as to how he'd fit in a spacing based game that greatly diminishes pg post play impact.

I don't buy arguments like this: "the game has changed and he wouldn't adjust." The best players are those who were best under the rules of their time. I could equally argue that today's stars wouldn't have been able to play when carrying was actually still a rule, or when centers clogged up the lane.

First of all, he was as solid a fundamental player as the game has ever seen: perfect passes, smart decisions, ability to find the open man, knows when to shoot vs. when to pass. Also, he was and still would be a very big point guard, 6' 5" and heavy. The 3-pointer has certainly changed the game (and I will argue to my death that it changed it for the worse), and there's no way to know if he would have developed that shot or not, but he most certainly would get his share of assists.

[ArbitraryWater]

GTFOH, LeTurd stan. You should be the last one to talk. You're one of the worst posters on this board. On par with Russwest and Kenneth.


Yeah, no agenda in the post which I quoted though. Stop being dense, dude. You're actually a good poster.

:facepalm

Can you give credit to anyone from the 60's or someone outside Wade?

Hurts to see all these casuals shit on older guys... Does the thought of Oscar > Wade anger you that much?

[aj1987]

:facepalm

Can you give credit to anyone from the 60's or someone outside Wade?

Hurts to see all these casuals shit on older guys... Does the thought of Oscar > Wade anger you that much?
Go look at my rankings, LeTurd. I have Oscar in the top 13. Is all the LeBron jizz clouding your vision or are you just mad that LeBum needed Wade to win a ring? :facepalm

Dumbass.

EDIT: Honestly, 40 posts a day (not counting your alts)? Do you actually have a life outside off ISH? Doubt it.

[Milbuck]

:facepalm

Can you give credit to anyone from the 60's or someone outside Wade?

Hurts to see all these casuals shit on older guys... Does the thought of Oscar > Wade anger you that much?
The bolded really got me :oldlol:

You really gonna keep pretending like you've seen more than 15 seconds of Oscar play? And that this isn't all to make yourself look good, by incessantly defending old era players, acting dumbfounded when someone criticizes players of the past?

It's really not that controversial to say Oscar wouldn't be as good as he was then, now. It's really not. And it's funny you bring up Wade, because watching footage of peak Wade and footage of Oscar, there's zero doubt in my mind that Wade would be the better player if they both played in the same era.

[ArbitraryWater]

Go look at my rankings, LeTurd. I have Oscar in the top 13. Is all the LeBron jizz clouding your vision or are you just mad that LeBum needed Wade to win a ring? :facepalm

Dumbass.

EDIT: Honestly, 40 posts a day (not counting your alts)? Do you actually have a life outside off ISH? Doubt it.

You have him in your top 13 and you call him "a statpadder, nothing more".

Is that either:

A) trolling

or

B): pure stupidity

[chazzy]

Hurts to see all these casuals shit on older guys...
cringe

[aj1987]

You have him in your top 13 and you call him "a statpadder, nothing more".

Is that either:

A) trolling

or

B): pure stupidity
Jesus Chirst, you're ****ing dumb. No wonder you're a LeBron stan. I never called the guy a garbage player. I never even called him a good player. I always considered him to be elite. One of the best ever. Doesn't mean that he wasn't a statpadder though.


cringe
AW calling others "casuals" has to be in the dumbest thing ever said thread.

[swagga]

I don't buy arguments like this: "the game has changed and he wouldn't adjust." The best players are those who were best under the rules of their time. I could equally argue that today's stars wouldn't have been able to play when carrying was actually still a rule, or when centers clogged up the lane.

First of all, he was as solid a fundamental player as the game has ever seen: perfect passes, smart decisions, ability to find the open man, knows when to shoot vs. when to pass. Also, he was and still would be a very big point guard, 6' 5" and heavy. The 3-pointer has certainly changed the game (and I will argue to my death that it changed it for the worse), and there's no way to know if he would have developed that shot or not, but he most certainly would get his share of assists.

well, the game was indeed changed by the 3p shot because it offered a very efficient shot and because of it defenses were severely stretched. Because of this, in time, players have become smaller, more athletic/explosive/quicker and with much better shooting, in order to cover more space on defense, to create more space on offense with their shooting, and to better benefit from the extended space on offense with explosive penetration.
Look at the champions from the last years and you'll find one big constant, elite 3p shooting, caused by either exceptional team-play and experience(spurs/mavs) or by exceptional penetration (heat) ... it's no fluke.

The question is not if he would develop that 3p shot, his release mechanics are very flawed (look at the tape), as they were suited for his post up, quick shot over the defender game. There is no way that shot would've worked from 15 feet out. He'd have to completely change it, and as we know it it's very rare for a shot to change so dramatically.

I agree he'd get assists and boards and be a smart tenacious player. I'm only arguing that there is no way he'd be a superstar or a star. Given the previously presented judgement I see it unreasonable to say he'd score more than 15 points a game as a 1st option. As you see I'm not even touching delicate subjects such as ball handling or MUCH better pg opposition. So 15/5/7 would be about it, given the decreased pace and given the increased number of hockey assists mandated by the plays run by NBA coaches nowadays.

[ArbitraryWater]

Me when someone shits on old era players

http://latesthealthtips.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/Chest-pain1.jpg

Those dudes invented the game on the fly.. no one else to look up to, no one else to study or pattern their games after.

[ArbitraryWater]

Jesus Chirst, you're ****ing dumb. No wonder you're a LeBron stan. I never called the guy a garbage player. I never even called him a good player. I always considered him to be elite. One of the best ever. Doesn't mean that he wasn't a statpadder though.


A statpadder. Nothing more than that.


You're making this wayyyy too easy for me :oldlol:

[swagga]

Me when someone shits on old era players

http://latesthealthtips.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/Chest-pain1.jpg

Those dudes invented the game on the fly.. no one else to look up to, no one else to study or pattern their games after.

nobody shits on these guys, nothing but respect for them. But to say they'd surely dominate today (except wilt) is downright ludicrous because of the inherent changes in the game. So the shitting is done on the posters still living in the past.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

You're making this wayyyy too easy for me :oldlol:
Haha, later dude!

[Pointguard]

I've seen a fair amount of people talk about it, maybe not in this thread but it does happen. Btw his peak statistical season, adjusted for today's pace and on a per 40 min basis (he's not averaging 45-46 mpg today), is 22/7/8. I never said he wouldn't be a great player, he would, but I just don't see him knocking on the door of the top 10 all time list if he was playing today.

Gifted, smart, trailblazers, super skilled, well-rounded players that would still be physically imposing with a superior post fundamentals would be able to transfer into different eras/situations. Name me the physically imposing, super skilled, solid fundamental, very smart player now? OK we got Lebron. I personally would like to see the fundamentals in the post a bit better but I'm sure he's got some quality's that Oscar didn't so I can front there. But after that it stops at Durant. So, we can't say what he would be like with modern day training/nutrition/development.

I would respect the next player that did what Oscar did, and had super skills, solid fundamentals, all-around game, solid execution, set new standards across the board and game on smarts. You have to respect that for any guy doing that in any era. All the rest is usually just up for hater input which would denigrade everything anyway. If our era gets one like that, only the punks will tear him down. I love Giannis because he has some of those qualities and once excellence settles in... .

[ArbitraryWater]

nobody shits on these guys, nothing but respect for them. But to say they'd surely dominate today (except wilt) is downright ludicrous because of the inherent changes in the game. So the shitting is done on the posters still living in the past.

Any top 15 great would dominate today... Wilt woud, but so would Russell defensively, West, or Oscar... give them the same advanced medicine, training, etc. as everyone else from today, they won't even be worse players (just worse statistically, given the slower pace).

[SOD 21]

Oscar is a little bit overrated because those numbers he achieved in the early 60s over his first 4-5 seasons is simply not achievable in today's league because of pace and also the inflated numbers based on the number of minutes that he, and other players, played during that era. He averaged nearly 45 minutes per game his first five seasons in the league.

Imagine what some of the stats would look like for today's players if they played in an era with an additional 18 or 20% possessions per game and were playing 45 minutes a night. Lebron would easily average a triple double and probably average 35 points per game in a situation like that, and Kevin Durant would likely average 40 points, 10 rebounds and six or seven assists.

If Oscar played in today's league at today's pace and minutes played, he would be an All-Star, obviously, that would average maybe 20-22 ppgs, 7 rpg and 7 apg.

[Milbuck]

Gifted, smart, trailblazers, super skilled, well-rounded players that would still be physically imposing with a superior post fundamentals would be able to transfer into different eras/situations. Name me the physically imposing, super skilled, solid fundamental, very smart player now? OK we got Lebron. I personally would like to see the fundamentals in the post a bit better but I'm sure he's got some quality's that Oscar didn't so I can front there. But after that it stops at Durant. So, we can't say what he would be like with modern day training/nutrition/development.

I would respect the next player that did what Oscar did, and had super skills, solid fundamentals, all-around game, solid execution, set new standards across the board and game on smarts. You have to respect that for any guy doing that in any era. All the rest is usually just up for hater input which would denigrade everything anyway. If our era gets one like that, only the punks will tear him down. I love Giannis because he has some of those qualities and once excellence settles in... .
This is my point, we always view these era to era comparisons in a black and white way, as if players can only be exactly as great as they were, or complete scrubs. Oscar to me would still be a great player, I'm not disagreeing there. I never said his game wouldn't translate or anything like that, I just don't think he's dominating today as he did in the 60s. That's all.

But your point about modern nutrition, training, etc is a good one and relates to my point. I was speaking while thinking of Oscar exactly as he was..but if we accept that there is a very real difference between then and now, in terms of the development of the game and training for the game, then yeah Oscar could dominate on the same level.

[ArbitraryWater]

This is my point, we always view these era to era comparisons in a black and white way, as if players can only be exactly as great as they were, or complete scrubs. Oscar to me would still be a great player, I'm not disagreeing there. I never said his game wouldn't translate or anything like that, I just don't think he's dominating today as he did in the 60s. That's all.

But your point about modern nutrition, training, etc is a good one and relates to my point. I was speaking while thinking of Oscar exactly as he was..but if we accept that there is a very real difference between then and now, in terms of the development of the game and training for the game, then yeah Oscar could dominate on the same level.

So we agree after all.. I remember discussing this same thing about Wade/West, and you didn't want to give the old guys the benefits of modern nutrition, etc. like todays players, and just put them in todays game like they were... lol. What a boneheaded thing to say that was.

But hey, obviously they wouldn't dominate to the same extent statistically, but like it's been said, with the same advancements they wouldn't be worse players, either.

[swagga]

Any top 15 great would dominate today... Wilt woud, but so would Russell defensively, West, or Oscar... give them the same advanced medicine, training, etc. as everyone else from today, they won't even be worse players (just worse statistically, given the slower pace).

i partially agree. Advanced medicine, training and so on wouldn't change genetics. Skill evolution is a huge gamble and I won't take that into consideration. It's like saying oscar would be a better shooter .. how can you know? he didn't have a proper form, so you can't say he was a natural shooter. so maybe. or maybe not. nobody can tell.

wilt would be very good because of size and athleticism. Offensive skill not so great. A bigger dwight howard is still a monster.
not so sure on russell, his offensive game is really lacking and you can't dominate just by playing D.
west sure, he'd fit right in imo. I'd wager he'd do better in this era.
Maravich would also do better in this era because of his ridiculous shooting.
oscar, for the reasons mentioned in this thread, would probably be a good starter, not more.
cousy wouldn't make the league, he'd be totally dominanted by superior physical specimens. He'd get destroyed on defense and on offense people would just sag off. His only translatable skill is passing, which isn't enough.
mikan would be an aaron gray type of player, no rim protection, no jumper, not very fast in a game of speed.
moses malone would have some trouble staying on the court because of the fast guards and less protection of the bigs (no handcheck)
kareem would BEAST mobility + hook + good fts + great D are all gold in this era.
the 80s-90s stars would all beast (magic, bird, jordan, hakeem, k. malone, etc)
barkley would suffer a bit from the increased space he'd have to cover , but he'd still be very good

[Milbuck]

So we agree after all.. I remember discussing this same thing about Wade/West, and you didn't want to give the old guys the benefits of modern nutrition, etc. like todays players, and just put them in todays game like they were... lol. What a boneheaded thing to say that was.

But hey, obviously they wouldn't dominate to the same extent statistically, but like it's been said, with the same advancements they wouldn't be worse players, either.
No it's not boneheaded whatsoever. It's just an indirect acknowledgment that there is a clear difference in level of play collectively (there are exceptions..like freaks of nature like Wilt) from then to now.

Of course if we want to compare these guys in a relative sense, and talk about career greatness..yes, we have to consider those other factors. But when we're talking solely about how good these guys are, there's nothing wrong with looking purely at just that. Especially in a head to head comparison like Oscar v Wade. If I'm comparing Oscar and Wade to see straight up who was the better player, I'm comparing Oscar as he was and Wade as he was. Adding the other factors to it takes away from the true essence of what a head to head GAME comparison truly compares...which is how good the players actually were as they existed. It speaks nothing to how great a player Oscar was relative to his era, and takes nothing away from his accomplishments. But it does objectively speak about their individual games in a vacuum.

I'm not gonna shy away from saying CP3 is a way better player than Cousy just because Cousy didn't have the modern training, nutrition, development, etc that CP3 had. Because objectively speaking, CP3 really is a better player than Cousy ever was, and imo it's not close. But relative to their eras, Cousy his 6 rings and MVP is a greater player, and CP3 has been a perennial 1st or 2nd round exit. And that's a distinction that you guys refuse to acknowledge.

[riseagainst]

about a 22-5-6 players in today's pace. So a solid top 15 player in the league and an all-star.

[MiseryCityTexas]

Oscar Robertson was pretty swole for a 60's NBA player. I could only imagine how ripped he would be if he had today's exercise equipment.

[MiseryCityTexas]

Because he was a very bitter ball player throughout his career. The quintessential "Angry Black Man"

Look at the era he played basketball in. He had no choice but to be mad. :oldlol:

[Dro]

Let me change my earlier stance on Oscar, LeTurd stan. Oscar from 2004-today would've basically averaged 30/11/15 in this weak ass era. He probably would've won 8 MVP's and 5-6 rings.


Jesus Christ. Read his post, the one which I quoted. He started winning after he stopped statpadding and started to play team ball.
Yes, but thats also after he got Kareem. If he had played with Kareem from day one, he would have already had a ring probably.

His last season with Cincinnati, he averaged 25ppg. The next season with Milwaukee with Kareem on the team, he averaged 19ppg and averaged 4 few shot attempts than the previous year. Thats why I asked, I don't think he's a statpadder, he was easily the best player on his Cincinnati teams, probably the best rebounder too...Its just like Lebron and for the record I don't think Lebron statpads..thats dumb...He's a pretty good rebounder, a great passer and scorer, he should be averaging what he's averaging. Sometimes he puts up close to a triple double without even trying. So I don't that against Lebron and I don't hold that against Oscar..

When he got a better team, he did sacrifice his stats to win. All of Oscar's numbers dropped across the board when he got to Mil, his rebounds and assists numbers all dropped.

[DaRkJaWs]

Look at the era he played basketball in. He had no choice but to be mad. :oldlol:
Wilt wasn't mad :p

[Lebron23]

Yes, Not a good playoffs performer.

[Young X]

He and maybe Stockton are the only players that don't get penalized for not winning more. His only ring came when he was 32 as a 2nd option and he missed the playoffs 3 straight years in his prime.

His career looks alot similar to the players that get hated on nowadays for not winning enough yet he still gets ranked higher than them (not saying he doesn't deserve to be ranked that high, but there's no consistency there). KG basically had the same career yet I've seen Oscar consistently ranked higher.

[pudman13]

His only ring came when he was 32 as a 2nd option

Take a look at the video of those playoffs. He was the best player on the floor, including Kareem.

RE: People with only one championship: Rick Barry is an underrated player, but I'm not sure I'd suggest he's better than Oscar, who was much more efficient.

[colts19]

i'd like to hear some reasoning as to why oscar would do well today. And please no stats and other bullshit comparison. I like the player but I just don't see him doing well in this era.

Real talk as to how he'd fit in a spacing based game that greatly diminishes pg post play impact.

Big O was very much like Larry Legend. Great footwork, great mid range shot and court awareness. He may not have been as fast as some PG's but he was a lot stronger and didn't need a lot of space to get his shot off. Kareem says he was the best and that's good enough for me. A lot of the old time players agree with Kareem.

[32jazz]

I don't buy arguments like this: "the game has changed and he wouldn't adjust." The best players are those who were best under the rules of their time. I could equally argue that today's stars wouldn't have been able to play when carrying was actually still a rule, or when centers clogged up the lane.

First of all, he was as solid a fundamental player as the game has ever seen: perfect passes, smart decisions, ability to find the open man, knows when to shoot vs. when to pass. Also, he was and still would be a very big point guard, 6' 5" and heavy.
:applause:


Elvin Hayes & Wes Unseld made all star games in the 60's, 70's & 80's so its foolish for people to claim greats of old can't play in a different era.

In the 80's Hayes scored 23/12 into his mid thirties & Unseld was still an elite rebounder averaging double doubles.


Don't forget the rules that allow players to 'carry' &' palm' the ball today which would vastly improve Big O's already sound handles. Rules today would only make the game slightly easier for someone like Robertson(although for pace & minutes played his stats would not look the same).


Wilt/Thurmond

Russell/ Hayes(Bellamy)

Rick Barry /Connie Hawkins

West/ Sam Jones

Robertson/Frazier(Wilkens )


This team could compete & beat any team from any decade. Probably more fundamentally sound plus the advantages of todays rules(especially very liberal dribbling rules). Hell I even left off some greats like Baylor.

[Roundball_Rock]

He is either properly rated or underrated. He is not overrated. He rarely makes people's top 10 lists let alone higher--even though he was consistently among the top of the top on lists for several decades.

[knicksman]

The best measure of overratedness is MVP to rings as the man ratio. Most players having his style have high MVP:ring ratio thats why Bran, iverson, rose are all overrated. In fact people are putting robertson at top 10 before lebron won his rings.

[Roundball_Rock]

The best measure of overratedness is MVP to rings as the man ratio. Most players having his style have high MVP.

:coleman:

[knicksman]

Yes, Not a good playoffs performer.

this. plays the same as lebron so gets stopped like lebron in the playoffs

[bizil]

No way is Big O overrated! If anything, I think he's becoming underrated. I think he's the best combo of passing and scoring of all time. And was probably the first player who would have been great at PG, SG, or SF. The blueprint for how to be a dominant guard WAS LAID by Big O and West. It meant being a true alpha dog AND great all around player in one. And being the best at damn near every facet for their given positions.

It was also about being as fundamentally sound as possible too. Even when u look at Jordan's midrange game, post game, and versatility, it's from the blueprint Big O laid down. I think he may be the most influential guard of all time because he was SO ahead of his time.

[MiseryCityTexas]

Wilt wasn't mad :p


Yeah because he had sex more than anybody else in the nba.

[Dro]

this. plays the same as lebron so gets stopped like lebron in the playoffs
Oscar playoff averages with Cinci..

'62 - 29ppg, 11reb, 11apg
'63 - 32ppg, 13reb, 9apg
'64 - 29ppg, 9reb, 8apg
'65 - 28ppg, 5reb, 12apg
'66 - 32ppg, 8reb, 8apg
'67 - 25ppg, 4reb, 11apg - his last playoff season with Cinci

They were bounced in the 1st round 4 times. Didn't even make the playoffs again until he got to Milwaukee.

Now tell me what more he was supposed to do? His team wasn't that good is the truth and he made them as good as they were......Cincy....

He openly thanked Kareem for his first ring at the Legends luncheon the other day so he's well aware of Kareem's greatness and he was obviously greatful to finally be playing next to another star.

[Pointguard]

He and maybe Stockton are the only players that don't get penalized for not winning more. His only ring came when he was 32 as a 2nd option and he missed the playoffs 3 straight years in his prime.

His career looks alot similar to the players that get hated on nowadays for not winning enough yet he still gets ranked higher than them (not saying he doesn't deserve to be ranked that high, but there's no consistency there). KG basically had the same career yet I've seen Oscar consistently ranked higher.

Back then teams dynasties and weak teams were much more prevalent. Teams were just more loaded or starved at that time. Kareem and Wilt only 3 times in 20 years back then and it was a big man's game and both were in their primes at that time. So today's way of looking at things is different.

[ZMonkey11]

OP, I'm going to level with you.

We have enough stupid trolls as is. I glanced at your name and don't remember it as I type right now. You already come off as an idiot. My advice for you is to go the other route. Take the blue pill. Learn up on basketball and be an intelligent poster.

If not, welcome to the 12th man role of the trolls. You won't get any attention. You will be considered dead weight. And your online entity will be nonexistent.

[Pointguard]

Oscar playoff averages with Cinci..

'62 - 29ppg, 11reb, 11apg
'63 - 32ppg, 13reb, 9apg
'64 - 29ppg, 9reb, 8apg
'65 - 28ppg, 5reb, 12apg
'66 - 32ppg, 8reb, 8apg
'67 - 25ppg, 4reb, 11apg - his last playoff season with Cinci

They were bounced in the 1st round 4 times. Didn't even make the playoffs again until he got to Milwaukee.

Now tell me what more he was supposed to do? His team wasn't that good is the truth and he made them as good as they were......Cincy....

He openly thanked Kareem for his first ring at the Legends luncheon the other day so he's well aware of Kareem's greatness and he was obviously greatful to finally be playing next to another star.
Yes, what more could he have done???

The three years he didn't make the playoffs in a row he had Ed Jucker and Cousey as coaches, neither of which had a winning season in like seven seasons of coaching.

[pudman13]

Yes, what more could he have done???

The three years he didn't make the playoffs in a row he had Ed Jucker and Cousey as coaches, neither of which had a winning season in like seven seasons of coaching.

In his book, Oscar skewers Cousy as a coach.

[32jazz]

Oscar playoff averages with Cinci..

'62 - 29ppg, 11reb, 11apg
'63 - 32ppg, 13reb, 9apg
'64 - 29ppg, 9reb, 8apg
'65 - 28ppg, 5reb, 12apg
'66 - 32ppg, 8reb, 8apg
'67 - 25ppg, 4reb, 11apg - his last playoff season with Cinci

They were bounced in the 1st round 4 times. Didn't even make the playoffs again until he got to Milwaukee.

Now tell me what more he was supposed to do? His team wasn't that good is the truth and he made them as good as they were......Cincy....

He openly thanked Kareem for his first ring at the Legends luncheon the other day so he's well aware of Kareem's greatness and he was obviously greatful to finally be playing next to another star.

The respect between Big O & Kareem is mutual since The Big O was about 33 when he first played with Kareem in the 71 Finals .

With a diminished/Aging Robertson Kareem won nothing else in Milwaukee & never won in L.A.(was considered somewhat a disappointment) until Magic came along in 1980.

Kareem will tell you he never wins a ring in Milwaukee without the aging Oscar Robertson & has always been diplomatic about who was the better PG(Magic or Oscar?).

Kareem played with them both & sees little separation between Big O & Magic ,but kids on the internet:facepalm ........

[Dro]

The respect between Big O & Kareem is mutual since The Big O was about 33 when he first played with Kareem in the 71 Finals .

With a diminished/Aging Robertson Kareem won nothing else in Milwaukee & never won in L.A.(was considered somewhat a disappointment) until Magic came along in 1980.

Kareem will tell you he never wins a ring in Milwaukee without the aging Oscar Robertson & has always been diplomatic about who was the better PG(Magic or Oscar?).

Kareem played with them both & sees little separation between Big O & Magic ,but kids on the internet:facepalm ........
Yeah, Big O is a GOAT player, Kareem too and its annoying to see people try to tear down one to prop up the other one. As you said they both understand how important the other was to their success........

[Young X]

Yes, what more could he have done???

The three years he didn't make the playoffs in a row he had Ed Jucker and Cousey as coaches, neither of which had a winning season in like seven seasons of coaching.You can make these same posts about KG, Dirk, Barkley, Durant, Nash, CP3; all those guys put up great numbers but were outmatched by stronger teams for most of their primes yet no one cares when it comes to them. Garnett was in the same situation as Robertson and ended up with an MVP and a ring just like him but always gets ranked lower.

[knicksman]

Oscar playoff averages with Cinci..

'62 - 29ppg, 11reb, 11apg
'63 - 32ppg, 13reb, 9apg
'64 - 29ppg, 9reb, 8apg
'65 - 28ppg, 5reb, 12apg
'66 - 32ppg, 8reb, 8apg
'67 - 25ppg, 4reb, 11apg - his last playoff season with Cinci

They were bounced in the 1st round 4 times. Didn't even make the playoffs again until he got to Milwaukee.

Now tell me what more he was supposed to do? His team wasn't that good is the truth and he made them as good as they were......Cincy....

He openly thanked Kareem for his first ring at the Legends luncheon the other day so he's well aware of Kareem's greatness and he was obviously greatful to finally be playing next to another star.

Per 36. And the guy is labeled as a cancer by teammates yet its not his fault. If you only managed 1 50+ win season in your career, the blame shifts on yourself. Are you playing right?Are you a leader? Well if youre a cancer then definitely not a leader.

[SHAQisGOAT]

One of those players who sometimes is very overrated yet sometimes very underrated...

Imho, top15 all-time, 2nd GOAT PG with also the 2nd best peak at the position... Is ranking him just fine.

[Dro]

Per 36. And the guy is labeled as a cancer by teammates yet its not his fault. If you only managed 1 50+ win season in your career, the blame shifts on yourself. Are you playing right?Are you a leader? Well if youre a cancer then definitely not a leader.
Ok, so tell me what he should have done better.......Because when I watch film of Oscar, I see a guy making his teammates better on the court....

And Kareem didn't label him as a cancer. He loves him. The best player he ever played with loves him.......

[knicksman]

Ok, so tell me what he should have done better.......Because when I watch film of Oscar, I see a guy making his teammates better on the court....

And Kareem didn't label him as a cancer. He loves him. The best player he ever played with loves him.......

Delegate the role esp the passing. Players dont like to play with players who hog the stats esp if youre a pg. Thats what making your teammates better is all about. Thats what made russell a winner. Hes willing to sacrfice stats to accomodate his teammates strengths and make them happy/better. Nobody is happy playing with oscar just like nobody is happy playing with iverson thus being labeled as a cancer.

Well during the bucks years, he was past his prime and cares more about winning and has kareem as the man. So he could no longer statpad on that team

[Pointguard]

You can make these same posts about KG, Dirk, Barkley, Durant, Nash, CP3; all those guys put up great numbers but were outmatched by stronger teams for most of their primes yet no one cares when it comes to them. Garnett was in the same situation as Robertson and ended up with an MVP and a ring just like him but always gets ranked lower.

Big O wasn't going to get MVP's back then because the scope said it was a big man's disease. I've brought up KG's coaches before as well. The winning rings argument is a bit unfair to me as well. Tmac gets hits a bit too hard because of that. Tmac got hurt before his prime but still looked like a better player to me than several of the players you mentioned.

But see my response to you before:

Back then teams dynasties and weak teams were much more prevalent. Teams were just more loaded or starved at that time. Kareem and Wilt won only 3 times in 20 years back then and it was a big man's game and both were in their primes at that time. So today's way of looking at things is different.

[jongib369]

OP, I'm going to level with you.

We have enough stupid trolls as is. I glanced at your name and don't remember it as I type right now. You already come off as an idiot. My advice for you is to go the other route. Take the blue pill. Learn up on basketball and be an intelligent poster.

If not, welcome to the 12th man role of the trolls. You won't get any attention. You will be considered dead weight. And your online entity will be nonexistent.
Come off as an idiot for what exactly? I don't think Oscar is over rated if that's what this is about...Simply posted a video entitled that to see a clash of opinions, in hopes some good information comes out of it.

Reading your username dosent ring any bells for me either....But your willingness to be so quick to judge says a lot about you. I'll give you some advice and say don't be quick, and if you are only use the language you'd be willing to use to a persons face. Not to puff my chest out like a monkey, but I assume you'd be a little more respectful in person. Its a habbit you should carry with you everywhere.

I can be lazy with posts, but I'm by no means an idiot

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=331654

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=352546

Admittedly these are probably the only worthwhile posts I've contributed...1 of which was content I just shared, the others entertaining bits came from the pool of posters...So maybe when it comes to something like player comparisons I should leave the people defending my opinions to those who can articulate it better....But for now I'll be sticking around. Continuing to "learn up on b ball" like I have been.

I've had troll moments, especially a few years ago in 2012 when I was a tad ignorant....But because of posters like Kblaze, CavsFTW, Lazarus,Datash, Psileas, Rake,La Frescobaldi etc Ive learned a lot. And have changed my posting habits since...For the most part

[LAZERUSS]

Come off as an idiot for what exactly? I don't think Oscar is over rated if that's what this is about...Simply posted a video entitled that to see a clash of opinions, in hopes some good information comes out of it.

Reading your username dosent ring any bells for me either....But your willingness to be so quick to judge says a lot about you. I'll give you some advice and say don't be quick, and if you are only use the language you'd be willing to use to a persons face. Not to puff my chest out like a monkey, but I assume you'd be a little more respectful in person. Its a habbit you should carry with you everywhere.

I can be lazy with posts, but I'm by no means an idiot

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=331654

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=352546

Admittedly these are probably the only worthwhile posts I've contributed...1 of which was content I just shared, the others entertaining bits came from the pool of posters...So maybe when it comes to something like player comparisons I should leave the people defending my opinions to those who can articulate it better....But for now I'll be sticking around. Continuing to "learn up on b ball" like I have been.

You certainly don't have to defend yourself here. You are not only an informed poster, you have also contributed some great footage here, as well.

[LAZERUSS]

Well, to be fair...IMHO, Oscar could easily have averaged a 30-8-10 in today's NBA. Those who use "pace" against Oscar tend to lose sight of just HOW he was getting those 30-10-10 seasons.

Oscar averaged about 22 FGAs in his 30 ppg seasons, all while getting 10-12 rpg, and 10+ apg.

Think about that...

Does anyone in their right mind honestly think he couldn't get 22 FGAs in TODAY's NBA? Furthermore, he was shooting as high as .518 in those seasons (third in the league BTW)...in an NBA that shot an eFG% of .441. Transport that .518 into today's NBA, where the league eFG% is about .497...and his .518 becomes a .584...or roughly another 1-2 more FGM.

Assists in his era were harder to come by, so, his 10 apg would likely be at least as high today.

The only area in which he would lose a considerable amount, would be in rpg. Today's era rebounds at about 2/3's of his era did.

So, I could see a prime Oscar putting up 30-8-10 seasons...

Lebron had a season in which he played 39 mpg, and basically averaged a 30-7-9.

[dubeta]

Well, to be fair...IMHO, Oscar could easily have averaged a 30-8-10 in today's NBA. Those who use "pace" against Oscar tend to lose sight of just HOW he was getting those 30-10-10 seasons.

Oscar averaged about 22 FGAs in his 30 ppg seasons, all while getting 10-12 rpg, and 10+ apg.

Think about that...

Does anyone in their right mind honestly think he couldn't get 22 FGAs in TODAY's NBA? Furthermore, he was shooting as high as .518 in those seasons (third in the league BTW)...in an NBA that shot an eFG% of .441. Transport that .518 into today's NBA, where the league eFG% is about .497...and his .518 becomes a .584...or roughly another 1-2 more FGM.

Assists in his era were harder to come by, so, his 10 apg would likely be at least as high today.

The only area in which he would lose a considerable amount, would be in rpg. Today's era rebounds at about 2/3's of his era did.

So, I could see a prime Oscar putting up 30-8-10 seasons...

Lebron had a season in which he played 39 mpg, and basically averaged a 30-7-9.

The flaw in your argument is that you are assuming that Oscar is as good as LeBron at bball.

Oscar wouldnt even get 30-10-8 on most high school teams let alone the nba.

[LAZERUSS]

The flaw in your argument is that you are assuming that Oscar is as good as LeBron at bball.

Oscar wouldnt even get 30-10-8 on most high school teams let alone the nba.

I would argue that he is even more SKILLED than Lebron.

[jongib369]

You certainly don't have to defend yourself here. You are not only an informed poster, you have also contributed some great footage here, as well.
Glad you think so, if you didn't already see I edited my post and mentioned you as one of the posters I go out of my way to read.

:cheers:

[DatAsh]

Nah, he's underrated if anything. Could honestly go top 10(at least pre-Lebron), but you never see him there.

People overrate his rebounding though. His rebounding is probably similar to someone like Kobe's. He wasn't the rebounder that Jordan was, and he's certainly worse than guys like Lebron/Durant.

His assist per game might actually go up from when he played though. I could see 11-13 apg for prime Oscar.

His prime stats would probably be pretty close to 87-90 Magic's, albeit with less rebounds.

He'd likely be my 4th best offensive player ever

Magic
Jordan
Bird
Robertson
Lebron

I think those are my top 5, in that order.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

So Oscar Robertson is gonna put up better numbers than LeBron James, and Michael Jordan now? :roll:

[RoundMoundOfReb]

He's overrated by the casual fanbase who frequently put him top 5 for averaging a triple double* in a season.

I'd say he's in the lower end of top 25.

*denotes weak era

[LAZERUSS]

He's overrated by the casual fanbase who frequently put him top 5 for averaging a triple double* in a season.

I'd say he's in the lower end of top 25.

*denotes weak era

Interesting...

Care to give us the list of players you rank ahead of him...

[LAZERUSS]

The Bucks before Oscar arrived...

56-26, and blown out in the ECF's...



With Oscar...

66-16 and win world title

63-19 and lose in WCF's

60-22 and lose in 1st round

59-23 and lose a game seven in the Finals...


Oscar retires...

The Bucks go 38-44 and miss playoffs...

[Helix]

He's overrated by the casual fanbase who frequently put him top 5 for averaging a triple double* in a season.

I'd say he's in the lower end of top 25.

*denotes weak era


Does the idiocy never end on this site?

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Interesting...

Care to give us the list of players you rank ahead of him...

In no order:

LeBron James
Michael Jordan
Shaquille O'neal
Bill Russell
Wilt Chamberlain
Tim Duncan
Kobe Bryant
Hakeem Olajuwan
Magic Johnson
Larry Bird
Jerry West
Kevin Garnett
Dirk Nowitzki
Julius Erving

There's 14...than there are a bunch of guys debatable (Moses Malone, Dwyane Wade, Bob Petit, George Mikan etc). the lower you go the harder it get

[julizaver]

His assist per game might actually go up from when he played though. I could see 11-13 apg for prime Oscar.


Back in Oscar's days (prime) there are fewer assists awarded due to several reasons - one is the way statisticians view it at the time:

"The NBA statistician's manual says an assist should be "credited to a player tossing the last pass leading directly to a field goal, only if the player scoring the goal responds by demonstrating immediate reaction to the basket." It sounds simple enough. As assist is a pass made to a shooter who scores. But when you try to apply this definition during a game, it gets murky. There are no details about how many steps shooters can take after receiving a pass; nothing about shot-fakes, head-fakes or pivot moves and no hard guidelines on how much time can elapse between the pass and the shot."

Until the early 1970s, most teams were awarded assists on about half of the field goals they made in a given game. That number jumped to 60% by the end of that decade and has hovered around that level ever since. (Last season, the average team was given assists on 58.4% of their made field goals.)

[ArbitraryWater]

So many people from Oscar's era compare him to the GOATs or even have him as best ever... so no, he's not overrated. Iv'e seen a few rank him top 10, and by now that claim is harder to make with LeBron in, but I think he's properly rated in the top 15... and the whole ring thing is too simplistic. "He should get penalized like others" no.


You can make these same posts about KG, Dirk, Barkley, Durant, Nash, CP3; all those guys put up great numbers but were outmatched by stronger teams for most of their primes yet no one cares when it comes to them. Garnett was in the same situation as Robertson and ended up with an MVP and a ring just like him but always gets ranked lower.

I don't get this... Barkley, Malone, Oscar have had disappointing playoff runs.. in particular, subpar big games. But where do you want them ranked? They're all like 11-17, one tier, they're not better individually than any top 10 player, so if the accomplishments don't match either, they're ranked just properly?

And no, Garnett's case isn't remotely similar lol... in case you didn't know, players ended their careers alot less sooner back then, the mileage, wear and tear on their bodies couldn't be rejuvenated as good as in the modern days.

And Durant might even end up higher than him, anyway.

Now Nash? Yeah, he's definitely underrated.... He's still individually inferior to all mentioned players, but he's one of the GOAT offensive players, and actually has played really well in the post-season.

[julizaver]

I think he is more of a underated, rather than overated. He was the best PG of his era and from a lot of articles I have read about Lakers Bucks games from 1970-73 I know that he was also capable defender and Jerry West had always problems against Oscar. Good for Lakers in 1972 that Oscar had healthy issues during reg.season and postseason - otherwise I am not quite sure how the '72 WCF series were going to end.

Maybe what made Oscar looks overated is that from time to time some of his former coleagues goes out in public saying how goos he was and how he was better than some of modern superstars.

Kareem played with past his prime Oscar for 4 years and with prime Magic for 9 years so probably he could knows the best.

For me players like Oscar could play and excel in any era of basketball. Unfortunately he is one of the greatest players ever, but just like his co-superstars of the '60s (Wilt, West, Baylor) his best years happen to be during the Celtics dynasty, not to mention Wilt with his 76's team during '65-68. With his weaker team he just have no chanse for team success. And that obviously hurt his legacy a lot as the other all-time greats during that era.

However a lot of posters here would instantly labeled him as loser and statpadder, ignoring the simple fact that championships are won by teams, not by individuals. Of course there is some weighting factor in evaluating how great an athlete in team sports is as you can not be considered the GOAT without having both individual and team success resume. But the last is very subjective and depends on people different views.

And little more - Oscar is scoring 25.7 ppg in reg.season, 22.2 ppg in postseason, and 16.3 ppg in his only two finals appearances.

So using ISH modern logic he is choker because 25.7 > 22.2 > 16.3 ?

Few will point out that Oscar played the majority of his post season games (47 from 86) with Bucks, where he was above 32 years old and under 20 ppg scorer. Or that he played great in '71 Finals (4 games) and he played in all of the 7 games in '74 Finals - his last games ever at 35 years, where he was scoring only 12 ppg.

[TheMan]

yea doe I like you manning up and coming here with your main account. show these young nigs where it's at homie. tell em how the game is identical now like it was back then. Tell em that player A and player B had the same impact in the 80s, and that player B and player C had the same impact in the 70s, and that player D played in player's C era and was a beast => player D would dominate right now.

Tell em homie.:hammerhead:
:facepalm

[jongib369]

In no order:

LeBron James
Michael Jordan
Shaquille O'neal
Bill Russell
Wilt Chamberlain
Tim Duncan
Kobe Bryant
Hakeem Olajuwan
Magic Johnson
Larry Bird
Jerry West
Kevin Garnett
Dirk Nowitzki
Julius Erving

There's 14...than there are a bunch of guys debatable (Moses Malone, Dwyane Wade, Bob Petit, George Mikan etc). the lower you go the harder it get
Who's in your top 10, in order. Unless you happen to go by something else like tiers

[jongib369]

Nah, he's underrated if anything. Could honestly go top 10(at least pre-Lebron), but you never see him there.

People overrate his rebounding though. His rebounding is probably similar to someone like Kobe's. He wasn't the rebounder that Jordan was, and he's certainly worse than guys like Lebron/Durant.

His assist per game might actually go up from when he played though. I could see 11-13 apg for prime Oscar.

His prime stats would probably be pretty close to 87-90 Magic's, albeit with less rebounds.

He'd likely be my 4th best offensive player ever

Magic
Jordan
Bird
Robertson
Lebron

I think those are my top 5, in that order.
What's your reasoning as to why Jordan was a btter rebounder? Most people seem to think the other way around

[jongib369]

Can't wait for cavs mix... I'm trying to get an even better sense of him but most of what Ive seen was a couple of royals/Celtic games from the 60s...Some games from the 70's that made it look like he had trouble bringing the ball down the court, which didn't do him justice. Then random highlights

http://youtu.be/cPdQ7EhCYa8

Dying to see the full game of some of those clips

[Dro]

I would argue that he is even more SKILLED than Lebron.
Don't feed the trolls bro.....

[OldSchoolBBall]

What's your reasoning as to why Jordan was a btter rebounder? Most people seem to think the other way around

Some folks who are into stats from the 50's-70's actually calculated how many rebounds Oscar would be getting at a mid-1980's to mid-1990's pace pace and it came out to 6-7 reb/gm in his peak years. Suffice it to say, he was probably around the same level as Jordan as a rebounder, give or take.

[houston]

yes he was

[jongib369]

Some folks who are into stats from the 50's-70's actually calculated how many rebounds Oscar would be getting at a mid-1980's to mid-1990's pace pace and it came out to 6-7 reb/gm in his peak years. Suffice it to say, he was probably around the same level as Jordan as a rebounder, give or take.
Thanks for the info! Have a link? Or just know any other players adjusted stats from that era?

[32jazz]

Can't wait for cavs mix... I'm trying to get an even better sense of him but most of what Ive seen was a couple of royals/Celtic games from the 60s...Some games from the 70's that made it look like he had trouble bringing the ball down the court, which didn't do him justice.

Dying to see the full game of some of those clips


"Trouble getting the ball down the court " ?:facepalm I don't think Kareem would declare Oscar Robertson & Magic near equals if he could not dribble.

Ballhandling rules were very tough in the 60,s(especially) & the 70's (slightly less) & everyone seem to have trouble dribbling by modern eyes. If your hand is placed anyplace ,but on top of the ball you would be called for carrying .

Behind the back & hesitation dribbles would get you called for 'palming'.




Since the 80's especially the NBA drastically liberalized dribbling rules & players can routinely palm & carry the ball.(Iverson , Tim Hardway etc. Made a career with signature moves that would be violations in Oscar Robertson's day)


All modern players from Magic to Jordan to Iverson have benefited greatly from these loosing of ballhandling rules.. Everyone looks stiff dribbling in the 60's because of the rules.

[jongib369]

"Trouble getting the ball down the court " ?:facepalm I don't think Kareem would declare Oscar Robertson & Magic near equals if he could not dribble.

Ballhandling rules were very tough in the 60,s(especially) & the 70's (slightly less) & everyone seem to have trouble dribbling by modern eyes. If your hand is placed anyplace ,but on top of the ball you would be called for carrying .

Behind the back & hesitation dribbles would get you called for 'palming'.




Since the 80's especially the NBA drastically liberalized dribbling rules & players can routinely palm & carry the ball.(Iverson , Tim Hardway etc. Made a career with signature moves that would be violations in Oscar Robertson's day)


All modern players from Magic to Jordan to Iverson have benefited greatly from these loosing of ballhandling rules.. Everyone looks stiff dribbling in the 60's because of the rules.
Haha no you missunderstood. I'm well aware of the dribbling rules from back then, the old school thought of always using your strong hand etc. I've literally watched hours of girls basketball from the 40s, 50s, 60s, and 70s. Along with hours of any men's highschool, college and pro that I could find from that time. Even play like Im from then :lol

So Im aware that Oscar was an excellent dribbler, looked like a yoyo in his hands. But in the footage I saw of him in his last year he seemed to of had a difficult time and opted to pass it to someone else for that purpose a few times....Maybe he was tired, I honestly didn't watch it all the way through...So I didn't jump to any conclusions because it.... It was quite different from everything else I've seen of him. Should of said I could see trolls really picking at it. Can see it being used like how a poster highlighted Wilt's post moves In a game he was injured. So I'm excited for what cavs has to share

[Dro]

Haha no you missunderstood. I'm well aware of the dribbling rules from back then, the old school thought of always using your strong hand etc. I've literally watched hours of girls basketball from the 40s, 50s, 60s, and 70s. Along with hours of any men's highschool, college and pro that I could find from that time. Even play like Im from then :lol

So Im aware that Oscar was an excellent dribbler, looked like a yoyo in his hands. But in the footage I saw of him in his last year he seemed to of had a difficult time and opted to pass it to someone else for that purpose a few times....Maybe he was tired, I honestly didn't watch it all the way through...So I didn't jump to any conclusions because it.... It was quite different from everything else I've seen of him. Should of said I could see trolls really picking at it. Can see it being used like how a poster highlighted Wilt's post moves In a game he was injured. So I'm excited for what cavs has to share
I just think maybe it was because he was older honestly. Cause he was 35 in his last year I think. Its funny though when Oscar does a crossover, its an actual crossover, hand on top of the ball, slight hesitation and quick, basic crossover that beat his man almost every time. I've seen him do this so many times to penetrate and draw Kareem's man and dish to him for an easy dunk.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Thanks for the info! Have a link? Or just know any other players adjusted stats from that era?

No, but I recall it was on Re@lGM forums.

[jongib369]

1974 NBA Finals G7 Boston Celtics@Milwaukee Bucks

http://youtu.be/wufVljPKSek


1966 EDSF Gm. 4 Celtics vs. Royals (1/4)

http://youtu.be/i3UrnXXKKvQ

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Who's in your top 10, in order. Unless you happen to go by something else like tiers

If I'm forced to go in order:

Michael Jordan
Kareem Abdul Jabbar
Bill Russell
Shaquille O'neal
Wilt Chamberlain
Larry Bird
Tim Duncan
Magic Johnson
LeBron James
Hakeem Olajuwon

A lot of it is arguable though.

[jongib369]

If I'm forced to go in order:

Michael Jordan
Kareem Abdul Jabbar
Bill Russell
Shaquille O'neal
Wilt Chamberlain
Larry Bird
Tim Duncan
Magic Johnson
LeBron James
Hakeem Olajuwon

A lot of it is arguable though.
Surprised Wilt is in yours tbh lol. I value peak, C/PF, potential, and physical traits a bit more possibly . Team accolades less.

Top 10 for me atm off the top of my head, any with an * next to it I think could go elsewhere.More than one the more I question the placement

Wilt
*Kareem
**Shaq
****Jordan(Maybe should be the 3rd of the top 3)
***Russell
**Hakeem
**Bird
***Moses
**Magic
****Walton
....
***Duncan
***LeBron
***Pettit
***Baylor
****Kobe
***Oscar
*****West
****Malone
****Barkley

[Dro]

Surprised Wilt is in yours tbh lol. I value peak, C/PF, potential, and physical traits a bit more possibly . Team accolades less.

Top 10 for me atm off the top of my head, any with an * next to it I think could go elsewhere.More than one the more I question the placement

Wilt
*Kareem
**Shaq
****Jordan(Maybe should be the 3rd of the top 3)
***Russell
**Hakeem
**Bird
***Moses
**Magic
****Walton
....
***Duncan
***LeBron
***Pettit
***Baylor
****Kobe
***Oscar
*****West
****Malone
****Barkley
Ill give you Wilt and Kareem, but you think Shaq is better than MJ?:biggums:

[jongib369]

Ill give you Wilt and Kareem, but you think Shaq is better than MJ?:biggums:
I value the center position. Especially today, with the new usage of the 3 a dominent scoring back to the basket center who is a great passer is almost even more valuable ... Wilt, Kareem, and Shaq would really work the spacing. Even if all the rules aren't as bigman friendly. Because of his size, and athleticism and other reasons it's hard for me no to place him so high

Can't imagine what someone like Red could do with him.

But, Jordan is my childhood favorite considering I'm from Chicago. So its tough. He definitely has a case to be goat. ...A lot of them do

And shit I forgot about The Doctor :biggums:

*I'm on my phone so I apologize for being short. There's definitely more reasoning for my ranking of Jordan beyond he was my childhood favorite lol. Seen more of him than any other played I've focused on

[Dro]

I value the center position. Especially today, with the new usage of the 3 a dominent scoring back to the basket center who is a great passer is almost even more valuable ... Wilt, Kareem, and Shaq would really work the spacing. Even if all the rules aren't as bigman friendly. Because of his size, and athleticism and other reasons it's hard for me no to place him so high

Can't imagine what someone like Red could do with him.

But, Jordan is my childhood favorite considering I'm from Chicago. So its tough. He definitely has a case to be goat. ...A lot of them do

And shit I forgot about The Doctor :biggums:

*I'm on my phone so I apologize for being short. There's definitely more reasoning for my ranking of Jordan beyond he was my childhood favorite lol. Seen more of him than any other played I've focused on
Fair enough, peak Shaq did 3-peat and made it look fairly easy....

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Surprised Wilt is in yours tbh lol. I value peak, C/PF, potential, and physical traits a bit more possibly . Team accolades less.

Top 10 for me atm off the top of my head, any with an * next to it I think could go elsewhere.More than one the more I question the placement

Wilt
*Kareem
**Shaq
****Jordan(Maybe should be the 3rd of the top 3)
***Russell
**Hakeem
**Bird
***Moses
**Magic
****Walton
....
***Duncan
***LeBron
***Pettit
***Baylor
****Kobe
***Oscar
*****West
****Malone
****Barkley

West >> Baylor. Baylor is overrated.

And I don't hate Wilt. I'm simply an objective poster. People thinking he would put up 38/18/6 today are the one's that bug me.

[jongib369]

West >> Baylor. Baylor is overrated.

And I don't hate Wilt. I'm simply an objective poster. People thinking he would put up 38/18/6 today are the one's that bug me.
That's a tough one but you might be right about West deserving to be ranked higher.

What do you imagine the 3 putting up today? West, Baylor, and Wilt

[DatAsh]

What's your reasoning as to why Jordan was a btter rebounder? Most people seem to think the other way around

I'm mainly going off estimates of TRB% which is a much better measure of rebounding ability than total rebounds. Most estimates I've seen of Oscar have him peaking just over 10, and averaging 7-8. Jordan peaked at 11.6, put up more than 10 4 times, and averaged 9.4.

My best guess for Oscar's career numbers would probably be 4.8 to 5.5 rpg. Definitely not set in stone though.

[jongib369]

I'm mainly going off estimates of TRB% which is a much better measure of rebounding ability than total rebounds. Most estimates I've seen of Oscar have him peaking just over 10, and averaging 7-8. Jordan peaked at 11.6, put up more than 10 4 times, and averaged 9.4.

My best guess for Oscar's career numbers would probably be 4.8 to 5.5 rpg. Definitely not set in stone though.
Would love to see them battle for a rebound. And Im laughing at the thought of those two playing together. Wouldn't want to be a teammate of theirs ****ing up in anyway :eek:

[Euroleague]

Is the sky blue?

[PejaTheSerbSnip]

"Trouble getting the ball down the court " ?:facepalm I don't think Kareem would declare Oscar Robertson & Magic near equals if he could not dribble.

Ballhandling rules were very tough in the 60,s(especially) & the 70's (slightly less) & everyone seem to have trouble dribbling by modern eyes. If your hand is placed anyplace ,but on top of the ball you would be called for carrying .

Behind the back & hesitation dribbles would get you called for 'palming'.




Since the 80's especially the NBA drastically liberalized dribbling rules & players can routinely palm & carry the ball.(Iverson , Tim Hardway etc. Made a career with signature moves that would be violations in Oscar Robertson's day)


All modern players from Magic to Jordan to Iverson have benefited greatly from these loosing of ballhandling rules.. Everyone looks stiff dribbling in the 60's because of the rules.

Yeah, people seem to forget just how hard it was to be a dominant wing back in those days, and I feel its precisely because of the stricter dribbling rules. That's one of the primary reasons big men dwarfed (no pun intended) guards in terms of importance; as a smaller player, it helps to be able to use your quickness, maneuverability and evasiveness to your advantage. And creating separation in a half-court or open court setting was many times more difficult with the dribbling rules of yesteryear. Which is why I'm damn happy they DID become more lax in their enforcement of dribbling violations, it made the game a whole lot better. I don't view it as a negative.

Tl;dr version, big men had it a little easier back then, guards had it a little harder. Oscar, with todays rules and a 3pt line at his disposal (one of the best shooters of his era) would be a beast. Maybe hes a little overrated but I have him at #11 all-time.

[Round Mound]

The most fundamentally sound player ever overrated? :no:

[feyki]

Top 5 ? Yes , overrated as hell .

Top 10 ? Overrated , but not bad .

Top 15 ? Fair .

[jongib369]

The most fundamentally sound player ever overrated? :no:
Don't worry, I think my actual reasoning for this thread was to push cavs to make his video quicker :lol

Side note my list is a but different now. No way in hell Magic should be ranked lower than Moses. Plus a few others have a case over him

Reason why I hate making these, tiers trump lists

[ImKobe]

he is... only argument you have for him all-time is his regular season averages, lost a ton of 1st round series and missed POs until Kareem came around and carried him to one title.

Westbrook this season is 2 rebounds per game away from averaging a triple double with 24 points a game and he's a 6-3 guard and is sharing touches with another first option on his team..and he's playing 34 minutes a game, put him on a team where he's the only superstar and play him 44+ minutes, he puts up Big O numbers easily...and we're talking modern era with much slower pace...

[jongib369]

Back in Oscar's days (prime) there are fewer assists awarded due to several reasons - one is the way statisticians view it at the time:

"The NBA statistician's manual says an assist should be "credited to a player tossing the last pass leading directly to a field goal, only if the player scoring the goal responds by demonstrating immediate reaction to the basket." It sounds simple enough. As assist is a pass made to a shooter who scores. But when you try to apply this definition during a game, it gets murky. There are no details about how many steps shooters can take after receiving a pass; nothing about shot-fakes, head-fakes or pivot moves and no hard guidelines on how much time can elapse between the pass and the shot."

Until the early 1970s, most teams were awarded assists on about half of the field goals they made in a given game. That number jumped to 60% by the end of that decade and has hovered around that level ever since. (Last season, the average team was given assists on 58.4% of their made field goals.)
Interesting, thanks for this

[dunksby]

Westbrook is putting up 24/8/10 on 46%, I'm guessing Oscar would be as good as Russell?

[jongib369]

Westbrook is putting up 24/8/10 on 46%, I'm guessing Oscar would be as good as Russell?
Russell is a monster, but I do think Oscar is superior. Especially in bball IQ/late game decision making. Not that Westbrook is a Dolt

Side note, I really liked the way Oscar would back his man down into screens

[feyki]

Westbrook has low iq and ball skills to Oscar . 1960's assists ratio to fgm is around %50-53 . In today basketball , that is around %60 ( Before 99 , that was around %65 ) . Oscar had better playmaking . Not much but 2-3 assists a game in same chances at least .

Westbrook also has poor shooting and turnover numbers . Oscar has around %60 TS when adjusting to West's era . And I thought Oscar had far less turnovers per possesions .

Oscar is Magic-Jordan level on offence in his prime . West isn't close to them . Probably , there's 6-7 margin on offence(100 poss) between of two .

[jongib369]

Westbrook has low iq and ball skills to Oscar . 1960's assists ratio to fgm is around %50-53 . In today basketball , that is around %60 ( Before 99 , that was around %65 ) . Oscar had better playmaking . Not much but 2-3 assists a game in same chances at least .

Westbrook also has poor shooting and turnover numbers . Oscar has around %60 TS when adjusting to West's era . And I thought Oscar had far less turnovers per possesions .

Oscar is Magic-Jordan level on offence in his prime . West isn't close to them . Probably , there's 6-7 margin on offence(100 poss) between of two .
To say he isn't close to them is a bit of a stretch IMO. Jordan is superior all around, and overall offensively.. But West is the only person to average 40 in the playoffs. Jordan did it in 4 games, but its not as impressive as West doing it for 11.

[Horatio33]

:applause: :applause: :applause:

:cheers:

Will you applaud someone for adjusting Wilt's numbers for pace?

[jongib369]

Will you applaud someone for adjusting Wilt's numbers for pace?
So keeping his points about the same(If the coach wants __ attempts from Wilt he'd take it), giving him more assists, about KLove/Dennis/Jordan amount of rebounds, giving you more free throws made than Curry, and an awesome fg%... Not too shabby

:applause:

[feyki]

To say he isn't close to them is a bit of a stretch IMO. Jordan is superior all around, and overall offensively.. But West is the only person to average 40 in the playoffs. Jordan did it in 4 games, but its not as impressive as West doing it for 11.


My bad , i usually call Westbrook as West :D .

But Oscar,Magic and Jordan have goat offensive prime in my mind . Kareem,Lebron and probably Shaq only close to them offensively at primes (beside of Mikan ) .

Jerry West is arguably in the top 10 goat . And He has better career than Oscar in my opinion . But West was two way player and he had great consistency and far longer prime than Oscar .

[jongib369]

My bad , i usually call Westbrook as West :D .

But Oscar,Magic and Jordan have goat offensive prime in my mind . Kareem,Lebron and probably Shaq only close to them offensively at primes (beside of Mikan ) .

Jerry West is arguably in the top 10 goat . And He has better career than Oscar in my opinion . But West was two way player and he had great consistency and far longer prime than Oscar .
You're leaving quite a big name off that list my friend :lol

I'm sure you're aware of who I'm talking about



(Info will be updated as new information comes. Feel free to correct, or contribute with different players.)

PRF= Points+points from assists.

Any names with an * next to it is adjusted for assists that led to a 3 per game. Any stats from this season doesn't include the very last game the played

For players with the *, after the : will be that PRF stat calculated like every player before 97

In order from what I've gathered so far WITH the 3 advantage


Tiny 73- 56.8

Wilt 62- 55.2

Oscar 62- 53.6

Oscar 66- 53.5

Oscar 64- 53.4 | Oscar 65- 53.4

Oscar 67- 51.9

Wilt 63- 51.6

Oscar 61- 49.9

*LeBron 10- 49.6 : 46.84

Isiah 85- 49

Oscar 68- 48.6

Jordan in 89- 48.5

Magic 87- 48.3

Magic 89- 48.1

*Paul 09- 47.67 : 44.88

*Paul 08-47.63 : 44.22

Baylor in 62- 47.5

*Wade 09- 47.18 : 45.12

*Curry PER36 16- 47.03 : 45.2

Wilt 64- 46.9

*LeBron 08- 46.71 : 44.38

Jordan 87- 46.3

Stockton 90- 46.2 | West 70- 46.2

*Kobe 06- 45.83 : 44.4

*Nash 07-45.41 : 41.86

West 72- 45.2

Curry 16- 44.43 : 42.4

*Durant 14- 44.39 : 42.98

Oscar 69- 44.3

Kareem 72- 44

*Harden 15-43.81 : 41.36

Bird 87- 43.3

*Wall 16- 42.43 : 39.1

Wilt in 68- 41.5

*Curry 14- 41 : 40:8

*LeBron 16- 40.53 : 37.68

*Jordan 97- 39.24 : 38.18

*Shaq 00- 38.11 : 37.26

*Stockton 97-36.42 : 35.38
--------------------------------------
Any names with an * next to it is adjusted for assists that led to a 3 per game.

PRF= Points+points from assists.

None of the 'totals include FGA or FG%

For players with the *, after the : will be that PRF stat calculated like every player before 97

*Lebron 10 PRF-49.6 : 46.84 -- FG%.503 (20.1 FGA)
Blocks- 1
Steals-1.6
Rebounds-7.3
Fouled-10.2
Free Throws made-7.8

(Total 1 all. Total 2 without FTA. Total 3 without any free throw data.
Total 1=77.5 : 74.74
Total 2=67.3 : 64.54
Total 3=59.5 : 56.74


Bird 87 PRF-43.3 -- FG%.525 (20.2 FGA)
Blocks- 0.9
Steals-1.8
Rebounds-9.2
Fouled-6.1
Free Throws made-5.6

(Total 1 all. Total 2 without FTA. Total 3 without any free throw data.
Total 1=66.9
Total 2=60.8
Total 3=55.2


Magic 87 PRF- 48.3 -- FG%.525 (16.4 FGA)
Blocks- 0.5
Steals-1.7
Rebounds-6.3
Fouled-7.9
Free Throws made-6.7

(Total 1 all. Total 2 without FTA. Total 3 without any free throw data.
Total 1=71.4
Total 2=63.5
Total 3=56.8


*SHAQ 00 PRF- 38.11 : 37.26 FG% .574 (21.1 FGA)
Blocks- 3
Steals-0.5
Rebounds- 13.6
Fouled-10.4
Free Throws made- 5.5

(Total 1 all. Total 2 without FTA. Total 3 without any free throw data.)
Total 1= 71.11 : 70:26
Total 2=60.71 : 59.86
Total 3=55.21 : 54.36

*Jordan 97 PRF-39.24 : 38.18-- FG%.486 (23.1 FGA)
Blocks- 0.5
Steals-1.7
Rebounds-5.9
Fouled-7
Free Throws made-5.9

(Total 1 all. Total 2 without FTA. Total 3 without any free throw data.
Total 1=60.24 : 59.18
Total 2=53.24 : 52:18
Total 3=47.34 : 46.28

Jordan 89 PRF- 48.5-- FG% .538 (24.0 FGA)
Blocks- 0.8
Steals-2.9
Rebounds-8
Fouled-9.8
Free Throws made-8.3

(Total 1 all. Total 2 without FTA. Total 3 without any free throw data.)
Total 1=78.3
Total 2=68.5
Total 3=60.2

Wilt 67 PRF- 41.5-- FG% .683 (14.2 FGA)
Blocks- NA
Steals-NA
Rebounds-24.2
Fouled-10.8
Free Throws made-4.8

(Total 1 all. Total 2 without FTA. Total 3 without any free throw data.)
Total 1=81.3
Total 2=70.5
Total 3=65.7

Wilts totals if he maxed out at Denis Rodmans rebounds in 97 16.1/Dennis max 18.7

Total 1=73.2/75.8
Total 2= 62.4/65
Total 3= 57.6/60.2


Isiah 85 PRF-49 -- FG%.458 (17.4 FGA)
Blocks- 0.3
Steals-2.3
Rebounds-4.5
Fouled-6.1
Free Throws made-4.9

(Total 1 all. Total 2 without FTA. Total 3 without any free throw data.
Total 1=67.1
Total 2=61
Total 3=56.1


Wilt 62 PRF-55.2 FG% .506 (39.5 FGA)
Blocks- NA
Steals-NA
Rebounds- 25.7
Free throws attempted-17.0
Free Throws made- 10.4


(Total 1 all. Total 2 without FTA. Total 3 without any free throw data.)
Total 1= 108.3
Total 2=91.3
Total 3= 80.9

Wilts totals if he maxed out at Denis Rodmans rebounds in 97 16.1/Dennis max 18.7


Total 1= 98.7/101.3
Total 2= 81.7/84.3
Total 3= 71.3/73.9


*Curry 16 per 36 PRF- 47.03 : 45.2 FG% .506 (20.6 FGA)
Blocks- 0.2
Steals-2.3
Rebounds- 5.6
Free throws attempted-5.9
Free Throws made- 5.4


**Per 36**
(Total 1 all. Total 2 without FTA. Total 3 without any free throw data. None of the 'totals include FGA or FG%)
Total 1=66.43 :64.6
Total 2=60.53 : 58.7
Total 3= 55.13 : 53.3

[dunksby]

Westbrook has low iq and ball skills to Oscar . 1960's assists ratio to fgm is around %50-53 . In today basketball , that is around %60 ( Before 99 , that was around %65 ) . Oscar had better playmaking . Not much but 2-3 assists a game in same chances at least .

Westbrook also has poor shooting and turnover numbers . Oscar has around %60 TS when adjusting to West's era . And I thought Oscar had far less turnovers per possesions .

Oscar is Magic-Jordan level on offence in his prime . West isn't close to them . Probably , there's 6-7 margin on offence(100 poss) between of two .
And back then teams played at a much higher pace, OKC plays at a pace of 96 this year, the Royals were around 120. They shoot around the same percentages when considering only their 2pt shots, we don't have Oscar's TOV numbers but I'm guessing for a high usage PG like him it would be high as well. Also how do you know Oscar's per 100? Westbrook plays much less minutes due to the nature of today's game, your arguments are pretty much baseless.

[jongib369]

http://i669.photobucket.com/albums/vv59/jazzking2002/spy.jpg

[BoutPractice]

Could you say he was like the Chris Paul of his era?

Obviously not the same body type, and Oscar was more of a scorer, but in the sense of being a consistently great, high IQ, efficient floor general who dominated his position for a long time, always led his team to the playoff, but didn't get a chance at a championship as the main guy?

(Obviously Oscar did end up winning a title with Kareem, and I kind of hope for CP3 that he gets a similar ending to his career)

[72-10]

He's built like a Jordan/Charles hybrid

I thought he's only 6'3"?

[72-10]

To say he isn't close to them is a bit of a stretch IMO. Jordan is superior all around, and overall offensively.. But West is the only person to average 40 in the playoffs. Jordan did it in 4 games, but its not as impressive as West doing it for 11.

Did you know that of the top 10 highest scoring playoff series, Jordan has six? West has one. You're essentially penalizing Jordan for having deep playoff runs in the late 80s.

[feyki]

And back then teams played at a much higher pace, OKC plays at a pace of 96 this year, the Royals were around 120. They shoot around the same percentages when considering only their 2pt shots, we don't have Oscar's TOV numbers but I'm guessing for a high usage PG like him it would be high as well. Also how do you know Oscar's per 100? Westbrook plays much less minutes due to the nature of today's game, your arguments are pretty much baseless.


I calculated bro . Westbrook plays in around 75 possesions at this season . Oscar played in around 95-100 possesions a game (specially in playoffs , around 90-95 ) at between 64-67 .

But League had 90-95 per poss rating in 64-67 . Westbrook plays above than 105 Per poss rating league .

Differantial is around %11 between of two as per game stats .

Oscar has %57.5 TS in between 63 to 70 . And that was in 92-93 points per possesions league . West has %55 TS in 105 points per possesions . That's huge margin bro .

Jongib ;

I don't understand you bro . What's your point ?

[jongib369]

...

Jongib ;

I don't understand you bro . What's your point ?


"But Oscar,Magic and Jordan have goat offensive prime in my mind. Kareem,Lebron and probably Shaq only close to them offensively at primes (beside of Mikan ) ."


https://youtu.be/G94iJr8ZbzM?t=31m32s


http://oi68.tinypic.com/16bzdzs.jpg

[jongib369]

Did you know that of the top 10 highest scoring playoff series, Jordan has six? West has one. You're essentially penalizing Jordan for having deep playoff runs in the late 80s.

I'm well aware of Jordans offensive prowess. He's my "second" favorite player. It's not penalizing Jordan, it's stating a fact. Jordan never averaged 40+ in the playoffs seeing 10+ games. Not saying he couldn't, but 11/40.6>4/44.7

I thought he was knocking Jerry West, when he wasn't even mentioning him. And I think Jerry deserves a lot of credit as a scorer, that's all

For instance if I brought up this

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-yhlETG9pkv4/VIUK8h9hF5I/AAAAAAAAFmc/Mdo3FublhFw/s800/nba-highest-scoring-games3OnlyWilt.jpg

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-YdKQ-TUa1ZY/VIUK8doBNTI/AAAAAAAAFmU/9sdO5PgTCp8/s800/nba-highest-scoring-gamesminusWilt.jpg

Am I penalizing everyone else, or stating a fact?

http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/sports/thetoydepartment/ohl2.jpg

http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/duqu/sports/m-baskbl/auto_action/1262787.jpeg

http://www.nba.com/sixers/photos/walijones1.jpg

http://cdn.slamonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/SJ_1.jpg

http://i.cdn.turner.com/nba/nba/history/legends/kc-jones/kc-jones-defense.jpg

http://www.hoopscritic.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/Havlicek-Russell.jpg

http://wtop.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/250563.jpg

http://pe1.0932.ru/images1/dennis-johnson-9.jpg

http://redsarmy.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/jordan_090826.jpg

http://www.sikids.com/sites/default/files/sikids/pages/images/cms/imce/users/thewiz/2014/01/rick-carlisle-celtics.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Kh-ylb7HQ2Q/UiS6IXEiGBI/AAAAAAAACq0/2bGzUZcFZBQ/s1600/Sam+Vincent+Boston+Celtics.jpg

http://a.espncdn.com/i/magazine/new/larry_bird_a.jpg

[feyki]

"But Oscar,Magic and Jordan have goat offensive prime in my mind. Kareem,Lebron and probably Shaq only close to them offensively at primes (beside of Mikan ) ."


https://youtu.be/G94iJr8ZbzM?t=31m32s


http://oi68.tinypic.com/16bzdzs.jpg


Ahaha i got it :D :D .

First of all , i don't look on raw stats . I think "what is more important" , "which is makes players better " .

Wilt had terrible playmaking in his early career . And You can see assists impact on offence , which is create a chance to scoring , when you calculated the Assists value and self points productions(w/out assisted points ) . However , Wilt had playmaking first time in his career at 1964 . And He had terrible playmaking again at 64 Finals too .

But other side , 67 Wilt is goat peak in nba history . 67 Wilt was also Oscar-Jordan-Magic level on offence .

Wilt averaged 34-35 points in 125-130 poss a game at 60-64 playoffs . Shaq averaged 28-29 points in 75-80 poss a game at 98-03 playoffs .

125/80 x 28 = 43.75 . And Points per poss calculating ,

90(60-64 PPP ) / 105 ( 98-03 PPP ) x 43.75 = 37.49


37.5 > 35 . And Shaq had better playmaking , plus probably shooting .

[dunksby]

I calculated bro . Westbrook plays in around 75 possesions at this season . Oscar played in around 95-100 possesions a game (specially in playoffs , around 90-95 ) at between 64-67 .

But League had 90-95 per poss rating in 64-67 . Westbrook plays above than 105 Per poss rating league .

Differantial is around %11 between of two as per game stats .

Oscar has %57.5 TS in between 63 to 70 . And that was in 92-93 points per possesions league . West has %55 TS in 105 points per possesions . That's huge margin bro .
ETA: OKC is averaging 100 possessions per game this season.
Jongib ;

I don't understand you bro . What's your point ?
How do you have the poss stats? Your math looks all over the place TBH, and you didn't address the TOV rate.

[feyki]

How do you have the poss stats? Your math looks all over the place TBH, and you didn't address the TOV rate.

I don't know Oscar's turnovers but i can post their 100 poss stats (peak to peak 64 Oscar and 16 Westbrook and with Oscar's numbers adjusting to 2016 ; ast ratio , per poss rat, reb % etc . ) ;


WestBrook ; 34.9 Points , 11 Rebounds , 14.5 Assists , %55.5 TS

Oscar ; 32.8 Points , 8.5 Rebounds , 13.6 Assists , %63.9 TS

If we had turnovers numbers , Oscar would clear choice to me .

[dunksby]

I don't know Oscar's turnovers but i can post their 100 poss stats (peak to peak 64 Oscar and 16 Westbrook and with Oscar's numbers adjusting to 2016 ; ast ratio , per poss rat, reb % etc . ) ;


WestBrook ; 34.9 Points , 11 Rebounds , 14.5 Assists , %55.5 TS

Oscar ; 32.8 Points , 8.5 Rebounds , 13.6 Assists , %63.9 TS

If we had turnovers numbers , Oscar would clear choice to me .
There is no reb%, ast ratio, or any type of per 100 poss data available from back then, you are just guessing, like you are doing with the TOV rate. Face it, Oscar at his best would be as good as Westbrook at his best, stop romanticizing.

[feyki]

There is no reb%, ast ratio, or any type of per 100 poss data available from back then, you are just guessing, like you are doing with the TOV rate. Face it, Oscar at his best would be as good as Westbrook at his best, stop romanticizing.

You can those with good math , that isn't hard . I didn't ever post turnovers ratio .

I love romanticism but not in objective issues . No , he was better and not even close ( not even in close in superstar differantial ; don't get me wrong ) . Oscar had far better shooting . And Most nasty offensive player was Nash in after 78 . Nash had 5 turnovers on 100 poss at his worst . Westbrook averaged nearly 7 turnovers per 100 poss in this year . That's terrible man .

[dreamwarrior]

He was a shoot 1st PG in that era. In this era he wouldn't be called a shoot 1st PG. In every game he'd dribble up the court, look to run a play and if there wasn't an option he'd find an open shot for himself. He was never selfish during his entire career so I wouldn't call him a stat padder. His game always revolved around the team. Kinda like Magic who never looked to run plays for himself though he was often the most skilled scorer on the team. He knew he had to get other players into the game in order for the team to function optimally.

[!@#$%Vectors!@#]

Bump

[GOBB]

he is... only argument you have for him all-time is his regular season averages, lost a ton of 1st round series and missed POs until Kareem came around and carried him to one title.

Westbrook this season is 2 rebounds per game away from averaging a triple double with 24 points a game and he's a 6-3 guard and is sharing touches with another first option on his team..and he's playing 34 minutes a game, put him on a team where he's the only superstar and play him 44+ minutes, he puts up Big O numbers easily...and we're talking modern era with much slower pace...

You never saw him play. What do you know?