Top 5 PF of all time

[Jlamb47]

1. Tim Duncan
2. Kevin Garnett
3. Dirk Nowitzki
4. Charles Barkley
5. Karl Malone

[SugarHill]

What argument does Barkley have over Malone? Malone easily had a better career.

[Fudge]

I can't decide who's better between Dirk and KG. Somebody type out a pauk-like essay and convince me which one to pick between the two.

[Cold soul]

Good list close to mine.

1. Tim Duncan
2. Kevin Garnett
3. Dirk Nowitzki
4. Karl Malone
5. Charles Barkley

[SugarHill]

I can't decide who's better between Dirk and KG. Somebody type out a pauk-like essay and convince me which one to pick between the two.
Dirk vs KG arguments

defense matters and he had a better peak

offense matters and he had a better finals run

the two groups don't seem to like each other

[JohnnySic]

1.) Duncan
2.) Malone
3.) Barkley
4.) Garnett
5.) McHale

[RicksPlace]

1. Tim Duncan
2. Kevin Garnett
3. Dirk Nowitzki
4. Charles Barkley
5. Karl Malone

1. Duncan
2. Nowitzki
3. Garnett
4. Barkley
5. Malone

My opinion is that Duncan will stay at the #1 spot for quite a while. Nowitzki has Garnett beat based on longevity, playoffs performances and loyalty. He is still our go to guy during clutch time. Dirk had perhaps the greatest dunk in all star history. Meanwhile, Garnett is pretty much done. Alright, I was kidding there, but you know what I mean. It was much closer when both were on their prime. Barkley and Malone are pretty much interchangeable.

[kenny817]

1.) Duncan
2.) Malone
3.) Barkley
4.) Garnett
5.) McHale

Only #1 (maybe #4) is better than Dirk

Lay off the drugs b

[KobesFinger]

For KG:

One of the best defenders in history
Better rebounder
His passing ability means he can bring the ball up and play point-forward
Loyalty
Leadership

Against KG (but not necessarily for Dirk):

Relied heavily on the jumper

For Dirk:

Better and more efficient scorer
Clutch play
Offensive versatility (50/40/90 on 25+PPG)
Loyalty
Great teammate

Against Dirk (but not necessarily against KG):

Was seen as soft

Toss-up for me as #2 behind Duncan in the 2000s. Blessed to have seen all three play against each other in their peaks, including playoff games. If only Minnesota's FO could have put together a team capable of winning a championship before 2004.

[SHAQisGOAT]

1. Timmy
2. Malone
3. KG
4./5./6. Dirk/Barkley/Pettit (very hard to pick the exact order)
7. Hayes
8. McHale
...

Peaks would be different though.

[Wade's Rings]

1. Duncan
2. Nowitzki
3. Garnett
4. Barkley
5. Malone

My opinion is that Duncan will stay at the #1 spot for quite a while. Nowitzki has Garnett beat based on longevity, playoffs performances and loyalty. [B]He is still our go to guy during clutch time.[\B] Dirk had perhaps the greatest dunk in all star history. Meanwhile, Garnett is pretty much done. Alright, I was kidding there, but you know what I mean. It was much closer when both were on their prime. Barkley and Malone are pretty much interchangeable.

Are you sure that's not Ellis? I have KG over Dirk.

[JohnnySic]

Only #1 (maybe #4) is better than Dirk

Lay off the drugs b
Defense matters. So does rebounding. So does passing, and blocking shots. Many things besides shooting the ball.

How long is Dirk gonna collect residuals for his '11 playoff run? Enough already. Yeah, he can shoot/score. That's all he really excels at.

I would rank Webber ahead of Dirk too if his health had held up more.

[Dr Hawk]

1. Duncan
2. Garnett
3. Malone
4. Nowitzki
5. Barkley

[Jlamb47]

My reasoning for KG > Dirk is that KG was a better defender. He was more versatile and had a better peak, and for peopple to say Dirk offense was way better is crazy. KG stats was pretty overboard, his passing game was underrated as well, averaging like 5 assist per game at some points

[pastis]

Defense matters. So does rebounding. So does passing, and blocking shots. Many things besides shooting the ball.

How long is Dirk gonna collect residuals for his '11 playoff run? Enough already. Yeah, he can shoot/score. That's all he really excels at.

I would rank Webber ahead of Dirk too if his health had held up more.

fortunatelly, nobody cares a shit about you and your opinion.


1. Duncan
2. Dirk
3. Garnett
4. Malone
5. Barkley

[JohnnySic]

fortunatelly, nobody cares a shit about you and your opinion.


1. Duncan
2. Dirk
3. Garnett
4. Malone
5. Barkley
Well no one can effectively argue with it either. Numbers dont lie. Aside from shooting, Dirk is average at everything else (rebounding, passing, etc) and probably a below average defender. That stuff matters to me.

[Fowl]

1. Tim Duncan
2. Kevin Garnett
3. Dirk Nowitzki
4. Charles Barkley
5. Karl Malone



1. Kevin Garnett
2. Dirk Nowitzki
3. Tim Duncan
4. Charles Barkley
5. Anthony Davis

Take away David Robinson,Tony Parker, Ginobili, and of course Popovich and what does Tim Duncan have that puts him over KG and Dirk skillwise?

KG did everything better than Duncan in his prime. You put KG on the Spurs and he ends up with more rings than Duncan has now.


Also, by the time everything is said and done Anthony Davis will be the GOAT PF.

[pastis]

Well no one can effectively argue with it either. Numbers dont lie. Aside from shooting, Dirk is average at everything else (rebounding, passing, etc) and probably a below average defender. That stuff matters to me.

playoffs matter.
Dirk was an above average defender during a pretty long time. Especially on 1n1 situations against bigs.

[T_L_P]

1.) Duncan
2a.) Garnett
2b.) Dirk
4.) Barkley
5.) Malone

That's how I'd draft them if my goal is to win.

I don't think it's a sure thing that peak Garnett is > peak Dirk though. What you do in the Playoffs makes up 90% of your legacy in my opinion, and there is a legit case for 06 Playoff Dirk > any version of Playoff Garnett.

For all the talk about Garnett being a two-way player and Dirk only being effective on one side of the ball, KG really didn't impress me offensively in the postseason for much of his prime (those fadeaways and long jumpers were frustrating to watch).

Still, I'm a defense first guy, and Garnett dragged some terrible, terrible teams to the Playoffs. It's a very close call.

[T_L_P]

1. Kevin Garnett
2. Dirk Nowitzki
3. Tim Duncan
4. Charles Barkley
5. Anthony Davis

Take away David Robinson,Tony Parker, Ginobili, and of course Popovich and what does Tim Duncan have that puts him over KG and Dirk skillwise?

KG did everything better than Duncan in his prime. You put KG on the Spurs and he ends up with more rings than Duncan has now.


Also, by the time everything is said and done Anthony Davis will be the GOAT PF.

I guess Dirk did everything better than Duncan in his prime too, correct? It's not like Duncan was a better passer, rebounder and defender, with superior longevity and more statistical dominance.

Who's alt is this? Arguing all time rankings based on 'skill'. :oldlol:

Here is peak Garnett's BPM (points contributed per 100 possessions):

0.8 Offensive BPM
5.5 Defensive BPM
.513 TS% (against two below average defensive teams and one pretty good defensive team)

Peak Duncan:

6.3 Offensive BPM
5.5 Defensive BPM
.577 TS% (against one bad defensive team, one average defensive team, one pretty good defensive team, and the best defensive team in the league)

And before you credit his teammates for that, the Spurs had the worst offense of any team in the Playoffs (90 ORtg) with Duncan on the bench.

[Fowl]

I guess Dirk did everything better than Duncan in his prime too, correct? It's not like Duncan was a better passer, rebounder and defender, with superior longevity and more statistical dominance.

Who's alt is this? Arguing all time rankings based on 'skill'. :oldlol:

Here is peak Garnett's BPM (points contributed per 100 possessions):

0.8 Offensive BPM
5.5 Defensive BPM
.513 TS% (against two below average defensive teams and one pretty good defensive team)

Peak Duncan:

6.3 Offensive BPM
5.5 Defensive BPM
.577 TS% (against one bad defensive team, one average defensive team, one pretty good defensive team, and the best defensive team in the league)

And before you credit his teammates for that, the Spurs had the worst offense of any team in the Playoffs (90 ORtg) with Duncan on the bench.
Let's be honest, Duncan hit the lottery being drafted by the Spurs. Hes never gone through anything near what the other guys on that list went through.

The simple fact is that if i'm starting a franchise, i'm taking Garnett 10 times out of 10 over that closet homo Duncan.

[SugarHill]

Let's be honest, Duncan hit the lottery being drafted by the Spurs. Hes never gone through anything near what the other guys on that list went through.

The simple fact is that if i'm starting a franchise, i'm taking Garnett 10 times out of 10 over that closet homo Duncan.

Let's be honest, Duncan made the Spurs into the Spurs where you can talk about management being this and that.

[T_L_P]

Let's be honest, Duncan hit the lottery being drafted by the Spurs. Hes never gone through anything near what the other guys on that list went through.

The simple fact is that if i'm starting a franchise, i'm taking Garnett 10 times out of 10 over that closet homo Duncan.

Let's be honest, I handed you the facts and you couldn't refute them, pretty much accepting defeat.

Still haven't explained how prime Dirk was more skilled than Duncan, btw.

:oldlol:

[greatest-ever]

Id go

Timmy- one of the greatest defenders ever, leader of 5 title teams)
Karl Malone- impeccable longevity and durability, great scorer, great rebounder
KG- top 3-7 defender ever, good all around game
Dirk- one of the top offensive anchors of all time, led mavs to a title and the playoffs almost every year
Barkley- highly potent offensive force, great rebouder as a 6'4 guy, lacks longevity of the other 4

[Fowl]

Let's be honest, Duncan made the Spurs into the Spurs where you can talk about management being this and that.

http://www.sikids.com/sites/default/files/multimedia/photo_gallery/1102/nba-biggest-single-season-declines/images/spurs-david-robinson-gregg-popovich.jpg

When Duncan joined the Spurs Greg Poppovich and David Robinson were already there.

[Jlamb47]

Let's be honest, Duncan hit the lottery being drafted by the Spurs. Hes never gone through anything near what the other guys on that list went through.

The simple fact is that if i'm starting a franchise, i'm taking Garnett 10 times out of 10 over that closet homo Duncan.
Lets be honest, Duncan has 5 rings at the end of the day and Garnett has 1
Duncan has 2 mvp Garnett has 1
Duncan has 3 FMVP Garnett has 0

[T_L_P]

When Duncan joined the Spurs Greg Poppovich and David Robinson were already there.

The guy who was almost fired his 3rd season because he couldn't co-ordinate off-ball movement for shit, and he relied on his Big Two to do all the work?

By mid-season the worst starting PG in the league was the team leader.

Yeah, Pop was already there, alright.

[SugarHill]

http://www.sikids.com/sites/default/files/multimedia/photo_gallery/1102/nba-biggest-single-season-declines/images/spurs-david-robinson-gregg-popovich.jpg

When Duncan joined the Spurs Greg Poppovich and David Robinson were already there.

I almost forgot Pop's legendary career before Duncan got there. You got me. And other side of 30 D-Rob? Wow. That's just too much :bowdown:

[Fowl]

Lets be honest, Duncan has 5 rings at the end of the day and Garnett has 1
Duncan has 2 mvp Garnett has 1
Duncan has 3 FMVP Garnett has 0
Put Duncan on the Timberwolves and see where he ends up.

[T_L_P]

Put Duncan on the Timberwolves and see where he ends up.

Pop in Playoff games without Duncan: 1-5 (he had Robinson in those games).

I thought he was Pop the God though?

[CP343]

1. Duncan
2. Malone
3. KG
4. Dirk
5. Barkley

[ArbitraryWater]

Barkley's argument over Malone is that he was the better player...

anyway, OP you make the same old topics. Bump one of the other 500 threads that discuss this.

Duncan is a PF/C (He's better than all PF's, obviously)

If we exclude him:

1. Dirk
2. Barkley/Malone
3. Malone/Barkley
4. KG

[mehyaM24]

no team acomplishments?

kg
duncan/barkley
dirk
malone

not that RAPM is the end all be all for measuring impact, but its the best statistic to date in that regard - it suggests kg in his prime carried just as much and sometimes MORE impact than duncan did with the spurs. when you factor in skillsets, kg is just more versatile (better from midrange/long range, better passer, shot blocker along with having better footwork).

age & attrition has got the best from kg, but in his prime, he was without question THE best pf in the game.. tbh, i consider duncan more of a center anyway - a top 5 center of all time.

[97 bulls]

What about Bob Petit? Two time MVP, Led the league in scoring twice, has one ring. Multiple All NBA, All Defense, and All-star appearances. His resume trumps everyones but Duncan's

[mehyaM24]

What about Bob Petit? Two time MVP, Led the league in scoring twice, has one ring. Multiple All NBA, All Defense, and All-star appearances. His resume trumps everyones but Duncan's
from the tape i have seen of his, i don't think he was better than either kg/barkley/duncan/dirk.. karl malone maybe, but that's because he wet his shorts in every postseason.

i wouldn't argue with anyone having pettit in their top 5 list of pf's. honestly he should be in everyones.

[Nowitness]

Walton

-------

Everyone else,

[SugarHill]

Barkley's argument over Malone is that he was the better player...

anyway, OP you make the same old topics. Bump one of the other 500 threads that discuss this.

Duncan is a PF/C (He's better than all PF's, obviously)

If we exclude him:

1. Dirk
2. Barkley/Malone
3. Malone/Barkley
4. KG
In what way? Their offense is similar and Malone's defense is better.

[ProfessorMurder]

Walton

-------

Everyone else,

Shaq, Wilt, Russell, Kareem are all better PFs than Walton. Oh wait, they're all God damn centers.

[ArbitraryWater]

In what way? Their offense is similar and Malone's defense is better.

"Their offense is similar" lol what :oldlol:

Dat breakdown...

Karl benefited from Stock far more than Barkley did from anyone else... Barkley was like LeBron at PF, 6'5 250 with the agility of a wing, bulldozed opponents.. speed, quickness and the balance to it, and while Malone had that bodybuilder strength, Barkley had natural strength and actually maximized it. Skilled and just forced his will on the block.
Peak Chuck was compared to MJ, it's no surprise that after all the great teams slowly vanished, the Jazz started making the finals...

Peak Chuck was transcendent, like Doc, Magic, Bird... Won an MVP on peak MJ and was robbed off another (only ever with most 1st place votes but lose). Like a Guard/Forward in one, dude shot 60% on 2 P's for the majority of his career.

Simply regarded as better player during the 1990's.

[mehyaM24]

In what way? Their offense is similar and Malone's defense is better.
in the way of postseason play. aside from the fact barkley had more impact (http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/ratings/1994.html) than malone, he never choked like malone did either. barkley was a better rebounder, skilled/efficient scorer & passer. sure, malone had him in defense - but by all metrics (per, ws/48, rapm) it didn't really mean much. not enough to have a significant impact at least.

[Jlamb47]

Barkley's argument over Malone is that he was the better player...

anyway, OP you make the same old topics. Bump one of the other 500 threads that discuss this.

Duncan is a PF/C (He's better than all PF's, obviously)

If we exclude him:

1. Dirk
2. Barkley/Malone
3. Malone/Barkley
4. KG


Your still in all my 500 threads. I Win just like Duncan beat Lebron last year.

[Jlamb47]

"Their offense is similar" lol what :oldlol:

Dat breakdown...

Karl benefited from Stock far more than Barkley did from anyone else... Barkley was like LeBron at PF, 6'5 250 with the agility of a wing, bulldozed opponents.. speed, quickness and the balance to it, and while Malone had that bodybuilder strength, Barkley had natural strength and actually maximized it. Skilled and just forced his will on the block.
Peak Chuck was compared to MJ, it's no surprise that after all the great teams slowly vanished, the Jazz started making the finals...

Peak Chuck was transcendent, like Doc, Magic, Bird... Won an MVP on peak MJ and was robbed off another (only ever with most 1st place votes but lose). Like a Guard/Forward in one, dude shot 60% on 2 P's for the majority of his career.

Simply regarded as better player during the 1990's.


Atleast you know chuck > Malone

[SugarHill]

"Their offense is similar" lol what :oldlol:

Dat breakdown...

Karl benefited from Stock far more than Barkley did from anyone else... Barkley was like LeBron at PF, 6'5 250 with the agility of a wing, bulldozed opponents.. speed, quickness and the balance to it, and while Malone had that bodybuilder strength, Barkley had natural strength and actually maximized it. Skilled and just forced his will on the block.
Peak Chuck was compared to MJ, it's no surprise that after all the great teams slowly vanished, the Jazz started making the finals...

Peak Chuck was transcendent, like Doc, Magic, Bird... Won an MVP on peak MJ and was robbed off another (only ever with most 1st place votes but lose). Like a Guard/Forward in one, dude shot 60% on 2 P's for the majority of his career.

Simply regarded as better player during the 1990's.

Interesting. Was Barkley a better player than Dirk in their primes?

[ArbitraryWater]

Interesting. Was Barkley a better player than Dirk in their primes?

moe... you can't argue for real :oldlol:

What happened to Barkley/Malone now? I thought Malone was better? You can't say something for him without a one sentence post that includes Dirk?

[SugarHill]

moe... you can't argue for real :oldlol:

What happened to Barkley/Malone now? I thought Malone was better? You can't say something for him without a one sentence post that includes Dirk?

I'd just like to see your thoughts on this. You could say this was the whole point.

[ArbitraryWater]

I'd just like to see your thoughts on this. You could say this was the whole point.

And I'd like for you to either say you're convinced, and if not, make your damn argument :confusedshrug:

Whats so hard about it? Chuck was the better player, didn't benefit from anyone, and didn't choke as bad as Malone in the post-season.

The fact that Dirk is the best playoff performer of the 3 should be known to you.

So, do you have something to say for Malone > Chuck or not?

[ArbitraryWater]

I almost forgot Pop's legendary career before Duncan got there. You got me. And other side of 30 D-Rob? Wow. That's just too much :bowdown:

True, Duncan helped Pop a tremendous part...

But D-Rob? Probably their best player in their first season.

Remained a top 5 defender all along, better in 2000 than in 1999, and any time a big gets you nearly 20/10 with elite defense, he brings a great deal to a team.

[L.Kizzle]

Bob Pettit most underrated player ever.

A ring and 2 MVPs.

He has a case for being at the #2 spot.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Pettit stays underrated. Dude should be at the very least Top 3 in these discussions..


And I'd like for you to either say you're convinced, and if not, make your damn argument :confusedshrug:

Whats so hard about it? Chuck was the better player, didn't benefit from anyone, and didn't choke as bad as Malone in the post-season.

The fact that Dirk is the best playoff performer of the 3 should be known to you.

So, do you have something to say for Malone > Chuck or not?

All of that trolling has turned his brain to mush. There is simply no counter-argument for Barkley > Malone, unless you think the playoffs don't matter.

[Optimus Prime]

1. Tim Duncan
2. Karl Malone
3. Charles Barkley
4. Dirk Nowitzki
5. Kevin McHale/Kevin Garnett

[mehyaM24]

Bob Pettit most underrated player ever.

A ring and 2 MVPs.

He has a case for being at the #2 spot.
top 2 is a stretch - top 5 for sure. but anybody putting malone in the top 3 is an idiot.

[L.Kizzle]

top 2 is a stretch - top 5 for sure. but anybody putting malone in the top 3 is an idiot.
Why is it a stretch?

More rings than Barkley and Malone.
More MVPs than Barkley, Dirk and KG. (2 just like Malone)
More scoring titles than Barkley, Malone, KG and Dirk. (2)
KG and Barkley have more rebounding titles. (four for KG, 1 for chuck)
Was All-NBA every season in the league
Never dropped below 20/12

[Marchesk]

^ This

1 Duncan
2 Pettit

Argue over the rest. I see though, ISH posters using that time machine eye test to decide who was the better player.

[Odinn]

1. Duncan
2. Barkley
3. Nowitzki
4. Malone
5. Garnett
6. McHale

If he keeps this improvement rate going, Anthony Davis will be the #2. And if he wins rings like Duncan did, he will have a realistic shot for the goat pf title.

[dubeta]

Gasol is in the discussion as the 3rd-4th best PF, and I see no reason why he isnt top 5

[L.Kizzle]

Gasol is in the discussion as the 3rd-4th best PF, and I see no reason why he isnt top 5
Wasn't even 3rd-4th best in his era, but he 3rd-4th best all-time?

[dubeta]

Wasn't even 3rd-4th best in his era, but he 3rd-4th best all-time?

How many PF's can drop 46-18 at 34 years old?

Back to back rings

Most productive player in each ring (PER / Winshares / DAPM)


And perfect mix of low post offense and defense


Don't see why people rate KG higher than him. Has twice as many rings and was more important for both rings, than KG was for his one ring in 2008. I give KG the edge in defense, Gasol the edge in offense, and the ring count puts Gasol ahead of him.

[Round Mound]

1-Duncan
2-Barkley
3-Malone
4-Pettit
5-McHale

[Nowitness]

1-Duncan
2-Barkley
3-Malone
4-Pettit
5-McHale

:facepalm

It would be you to discredit two greats for a career second option, lol.

[Sarcastic]

1. Timmy
2. Malone
3. KG
4./5./6. Dirk/Barkley/Pettit (very hard to pick the exact order)
7. Hayes
8. McHale
...

Peaks would be different though.

Most accurate list.

[Round Mound]

Charles Barkley Inside The 3-Pointline (2-Pointers and 2-Point FG%)

21.6 PPG On 58.13% Two-Point FG...Taking Only 12.9 Two-Point FGAs PG

NBA & ABA Career Leaders and Records for 2-PT Field Goal Pct

NBA/ABA

Rank Player 2P%

1. Tyson Chandler .5915
2. Shaquille O'Neal .5829
3. Artis Gilmore* .5825
4. Charles Barkley* .5813
5. Dwight Howard .5811

BA & ABA Year-by-Year Leaders and Records for 2-PT Field Goal Pct

Season Lg Player 2P% Tm
2014-15 NBA DeAndre Jordan .7297 LAC
2013-14 NBA DeAndre Jordan .6757 LAC
2012-13 NBA DeAndre Jordan .6434 LAC
2011-12 NBA Tyson Chandler .6827 NYK
2010-11 NBA Nene Hilario .6179 DEN
2009-10 NBA Dwight Howard .6167 ORL
2008-09 NBA Shaquille O'Neal .6095 PHO
2007-08 NBA Andris Biedrins .6262 GSW
2006-07 NBA Mikki Moore .6099 NJN
2005-06 NBA Shaquille O'Neal .6000 MIA
2004-05 NBA Shaquille O'Neal .6009 MIA
2003-04 NBA Shaquille O'Neal .5844 LAL
2002-03 NBA Eddy Curry .5846 CHI
2001-02 NBA Brent Barry .5881 SEA
2000-01 NBA Shaquille O'Neal .5725 LAL
1999-00 NBA Shaquille O'Neal .5745 LAL
1998-99 NBA Shaquille O'Neal .5769 LAL
1997-98 NBA Shaquille O'Neal .5841 LAL
1996-97 NBA Gheorghe Muresan .6044 WSB
1995-96 NBA Gheorghe Muresan .5847 WSB
1994-95 NBA Chris Gatling .6341 GSW
1993-94 NBA Shaquille O'Neal .5997 ORL
1992-93 NBA Cedric Ceballos .5773 PHO
1991-92 NBA Buck Williams .6050 POR
1990-91 NBA Charles Barkley* .6136 PHI
1989-90 NBA Charles Barkley* .6323 PHI
1988-89 NBA Charles Barkley* .6358 PHI
1987-88 NBA Charles Barkley* .6297 PHI
1986-87 NBA Charles Barkley* .6435 PHI
1985-86 NBA Steve Johnson .6318 SAS
1984-85 NBA James Donaldson .6370 LAC
1983-84 NBA Artis Gilmore* .6347 SAS
1982-83 NBA Artis Gilmore* .6304 SAS
1981-82 NBA Artis Gilmore* .6519 CHI
1980-81 NBA Artis Gilmore* .6703 CHI
1979-80 NBA Cedric Maxwell .6093 BOS
1978-79 NBA Cedric Maxwell .5842 BOS
1977-78 NBA Bobby Jones .5782 DEN
1976-77 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* .5793 LAL
1975-76 NBA Wes Unseld* .5608 WSB
John Shumate .5608 TOT
ABA Bobby Jones .5809 DNA
1974-75 NBA Don Nelson* .5389 BOS
ABA Bobby Jones .6046 DNA
1973-74 NBA Bob McAdoo* .5471 BUF
ABA Swen Nater .5527 TOT
1972-73 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* .7270 LAL
ABA Artis Gilmore* .5595 KEN
1971-72 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* .6492 LAL
ABA Artis Gilmore* .5979 KEN
1970-71 NBA Johnny Green .5871 CIN
ABA Zelmo Beaty .5547 UTS
1969-70 NBA Johnny Green .5593 CIN
ABA Trooper Washington .5505 TOT
1968-69 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* .5833 LAL
ABA Jimmy Jones .5366 NOB
1967-68 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* .5948 PHI
ABA Trooper Washington .5219 PTP
1966-67 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* .6826 PHI
1965-66 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* .5397 PHI
1964-65 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* .5103 TOT
1963-64 NBA Jerry Lucas* .5266 CIN
1962-63 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* .5282 SF
1961-62 NBA Walt Bellamy* .5189 CHP
1960-61 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* .5092 PHW
1959-60 NBA Kenny Sears .4774 NYK
1958-59 NBA Kenny Sears .4900 NYK
1957-58 NBA Jack Twyman* .4523 CIN
1956-57 NBA Neil Johnston* .4471 PHW
1955-56 NBA Neil Johnston* .4570 PHW
1954-55 NBA Larry Foust .4866 FTW
1953-54 NBA Ed Macauley* .4863 BOS
1952-53 NBA Neil Johnston* .4524 PHW
Ed Macauley* .4524 BOS
1951-52 NBA Paul Arizin* .4484 PHW
1950-51 NBA Alex Groza .4704 INO
1949-50 NBA Alex Groza .4780 INO
1948-49 BAA Arnie Risen* .4228 ROC
1947-48 BAA Buddy Jeannette* .3488 BLB
1946-47 BAA Bob Feerick .4009 WSC

Gilmore 7-2 ft
Wilt 7-1 ft
Shaq 7-1 ft
Howard 6-9 3/4 ft

Barkley 6-4 3/4 ft


:bowdown:

[necya]

Put Duncan on the Timberwolves and see where he ends up.

i'm sure he definitely does better if he doesn't take that 121 over 7 years at that time.

[Wade's Rings]

The Real Round Mound has Returned :bowdown:

[Round Mound]

The Real Round Mound has Returned :bowdown:

:D :rockon: :cheers:

[Roundball_Rock]

What argument does Barkley have over Malone? Malone easily had a better career.

Peak/prime play. Barkley at his best was better than Malone at his best. Barkley just broke down prematurely while Malone had the best longevity of anyone in history other than KAJ.

[Round Mound]

Peak/prime play. Barkley at his best was better than Malone at his best. Barkley just broke down prematurely while Malone had the best longevity of anyone in history other than KAJ.

Exactly :applause: . But Most People On This Forum Never Got To Watch Suns and Sixers Barkley But Third Option, Overweight and Constantly Injured Rockets Barkley. 2 Different Players.

[Pointguard]

Barkley and Dirk are not traditional PF's. They neglect too many of the responsibilities. Its ok to argue they are better forwards than Malone or KG or Mchale, but PFs had a very definite set of responsibilities and were similar on the court to one another. ie. Hakeem was a better center than Duncan but Duncan will most likely rank higher even if Duncan played center his whole career. And Duncan rocked the center responsibilities well. Unlike Barkley and Dirk who weren't hustle players, weren't tough defenders and Dirk's rebounding wasn't great.

Now if they can redefine the position I'm ok with it. But its not like tough defense, playing big, rebounding and hustle can be replaced easily in the game. Especially for 3 more points per game in Dirks case and a basket in Barkley's case.

Different if Barkley and Dirk were the best scoring power forwards without question but Malone, a contemporary of both, had 8 years scoring higher than their scoring peak. You have to tweak too much break it down into only scoring subcategories to legitimize them.

[Dro]

Ehh, all I know is there's no way Malone is better than Barkley...Not at all...In fact, if Duncan didn't have 5 rings, I'd damn near put Barkley over him too...Barkley was on some other shit man...Duncan has 5 rings, yeah he's the best player but he's always had help. Always. But I don't penalize others because they weren't in as good a situation. Barkley's Suns were good, but not as good as the Spurs/coaching...If I told you one of them has to drop 50 and the other one has to die. They have to dominate that game. Who you picking?

Anyway, Pettit, no lower than 4, may have to put KG over him...Dirk is #5. He's not a better individual player than any of those guys, well maybe better than Malone.....

[Round Mound]

Breaking it down shows clearly that Barkley > Malone as a scorer. Malone just shot more attempts and was way less efficient (especially in the play-offs). The article on shot made/missed diferential shows the same. Its like saying Kobe is a better scorer than Jordan when the FG% clearly has Jordan over Kobe.

Inside the 3-pointline: Chuck and Shaq are the most efficient modern inside scorers, kind of what Gilmore and Wilt where before them (although Gilmore wasn`t a 1st option scorer like Wilt, Shaq and Chuck where for most of their primes).

[Nowitness]

Breaking it down shows clearly that Barkley > Malone as a scorer. Malone just shot more attempts and was way less efficient (especially in the play-offs). The article on shot made/missed diferential shows the same. Its like saying Kobe is a better scorer than Jordan when the FG% clearly has Jordan over Kobe.

Inside the 3-pointline: Chuck and Shaq are the most efficient modern inside scorers, kind of what Gilmore and Wilt where before them (although Gilmore wasn`t a 1st option scorer like Wilt, Shaq and Chuck where for most of their primes).

I always thought Dr J, Moses, Mo Cheeks, KJ and Hakeem were the main options?

[DMV2]

Duncan
Barkley
Malone
Garnett
Nowitzki

[Round Mound]

I always thought Dr J, Moses, Mo Cheeks, KJ and Hakeem were the main options?

1984-85: Barkley 3rd option
1985-86: Barkley 2nd option
1986-96: Barkley 1st option
1997-00: Barkley 3rd and sometimes 2nd option.

Something like that...

[Round Mound]

Barkley and Dirk are not traditional PF's. They neglect too many of the responsibilities. Its ok to argue they are better forwards than Malone or KG or Mchale, but PFs had a very definite set of responsibilities and were similar on the court to one another. ie. Hakeem was a better center than Duncan but Duncan will most likely rank higher even if Duncan played center his whole career. And Duncan rocked the center responsibilities well. Unlike Barkley and Dirk who weren't hustle players, weren't tough defenders and Dirk's rebounding wasn't great.

Now if they can redefine the position I'm ok with it. But its not like tough defense, playing big, rebounding and hustle can be replaced easily in the game. Especially for 3 more points per game in Dirks case and a basket in Barkley's case.

Different if Barkley and Dirk were the best scoring power forwards without question but Malone, a contemporary of both, had 8 years scoring higher than their scoring peak. You have to tweak too much break it down into only scoring subcategories to legitimize them.

:no: Charles was a hustler player with the Sixers in his physical prime he would dive for loose balls etc. You also don`t lead the league in rebounding without hustle. Specially at 6`4 3/4 ft. He wasn`t a great rim protector but was a fine defender when he wanted to. You do know Charles has the highest spg avg for the PF spot and averaged more than a 1.0 bpg with the Sixers.

[DatAsh]

Duncan
Garnett
Barkley
Malone
Pettit
Nowitzki
Webber
McHale
Hayes

[miles berg]

1. Duncan
2. Nowitzki
3. Barkley
4. Garnett
5. Malone

[necya]

dammit, i don't even have enough fingers on my hands to count the number of seasons Karl Malone scored as much or more than Duncan's career high 25,5...
Dude was the ultimate PF. He missed 10 games out of his first 18 seasons.
I was watching some of his games in 2002 at 38years of age, versus Garnett, Dirk and MVP Duncan...
I wonder how ISH would react in 2002 when papy Malone had some 31/8, 30/14, 27/12, 28/7, 23/10, 33/9 against TD, Garnett and Nowitzki.
Too bad they didn't meet while they were all in their prime.

[Pointguard]

:no: Charles was a hustler player with the Sixers in his physical prime he would dive for loose balls etc. You also don`t lead the league in rebounding without hustle. Specially at 6`4 3/4 ft. He wasn`t a great rim protector but was a fine defender when he wanted to. You do know Charles has the highest spg avg for the PF spot and averaged more than a 1.0 bpg with the Sixers.
Barkley did everything when he wanted to. He went to the gym when he wanted to. He blocked shots when he wanted to. He liked rebounding so he did that often. If Barkley stayed wanting to be the best... yes he would be right there with Duncan.

If I said which player had 40/20/8 one night and10/5/2 the next we all know who it was.

[iggy>]

I only clicked on this thread to see if round mound posted. :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[Height Freak]

:no: Charles was a hustler player with the Sixers in his physical prime he would dive for loose balls etc. You also don`t lead the league in rebounding without hustle. Specially at 6`4 3/4 ft. He wasn`t a great rim protector but was a fine defender when he wanted to. You do know Charles has the highest spg avg for the PF spot and averaged more than a 1.0 bpg with the Sixers.

He's actually taller than that, but yeah agree.

[necya]

If I said which player had 40/20/8 one night and10/5/2 the next we all know who it was.

:oldlol: this is completely not true, Barkley was very regular with his performances. dude took 10 boards a game for 15 straight ****ing years at 6'5


Barkley and Dirk are not traditional PF's. They neglect too many of the responsibilities. Its ok to argue they are better forwards than Malone or KG or Mchale, but PFs had a very definite set of responsibilities and were similar on the court to one another.

:biggums: what's wrong with you ?

[bizil]

GOAT wise:

Duncan - Brought a dominant two way center's skillset to the PF
Malone - The best "prototypical PF" of all time.
KG - The best all around-most versatile PF of all time.
Dirk- The top stretch PF of all time
Barkley- The top offensive (scoring and passing as package) PF of all time

So all of these guys in addition to their resumes were the best of all time at their given style.

However peak wise, I think Barkley is the best PF of all time. At his peak, he had an impact on a game that no PF could match in my opinion. For starters, arguably the best scoring skillset of any PF ever. Plus he had point forward skills and was a freakish athlete. Versatility wise, could swing to be the best SF in the world in addition to being the best PF in the world in his era.

And of course he had the great rebounding and toughness of the old school PF's. Only negative could be defense, but I think that was due to him being a tweener. Too short to guard some PF's and too heavy to keep up with the SF's.

[dubeta]

Gasol severely gets underrated in these rankings


Basically pulled off a Hakeem in 2009-2010

[bizil]

Gasol severely gets underrated in these rankings


Basically pulled off a Hakeem in 2009-2010

I agree! I think Gasol should be ranked in the top 10-15 GOAT PF's. I don't know if people realize the kind of career Gasol has had. For total skills across the board, I think he's one of the top 10 PF's ever. Even though he's not as dominant as Duncan was, Pau still brought a center's size and skillset to the PF as well.

In terms of low post skillset, I think McHale, Duncan, and Pau are the top three PF's of all time. He has two rings, five all star games, three All NBA teams, and Rookie of the Year. So if guys like C-Webb are deserving of being in the top 10-15 GOAT PF's, they u gotta have Gasol in there too.

[Pointguard]

:oldlol: this is completely not true, Barkley was very regular with his performances. dude took 10 boards a game for 15 straight ****ing years at 6'5
your response has absolutely nothing to do with day to day uneven out puts. Day to day consistency is the topic there, not overall average. Or to simplify it further you knew KG, Duncan and Dirk were good for bare minimums 90% of the time. Barkley was the most erratic by far.



:biggums: what's wrong with you ?

[dubeta]

I agree! I think Gasol should be ranked in the top 10-15 GOAT PF's. I don't know if people realize the kind of career Gasol has had. For total skills across the board, I think he's one of the top 10 PF's ever. Even though he's not as dominant as Duncan was, Pau still brought a center's size and skillset to the PF as well.

In terms of low post skillset, I think McHale, Duncan, and Pau are the top three PF's of all time. He has two rings, five all star games, three All NBA teams, and Rookie of the Year. So if guys like C-Webb are deserving of being in the top 10-15 GOAT PF's, they u gotta have Gasol in there too.

:cheers:

He pulled off a repeat, leading the team in PER and Winshares, something KG, Duncan, Barkley, and Malone never did.

[L.Kizzle]

GOAT wise:

Duncan - Brought a dominant two way center's skillset to the PF
Malone - The best "prototypical PF" of all time.
KG - The best all around-most versatile PF of all time.
Dirk- The top stretch PF of all time
Barkley- The top offensive (scoring and passing as package) PF of all time

So all of these guys in addition to their resumes were the best of all time at their given style.

However peak wise, I think Barkley is the best PF of all time. At his peak, he had an impact on a game that no PF could match in my opinion. For starters, arguably the best scoring skillset of any PF ever. Plus he had point forward skills and was a freakish athlete. Versatility wise, could swing to be the best SF in the world in addition to being the best PF in the world in his era.

And of course he had the great rebounding and toughness of the old school PF's. Only negative could be defense, but I think that was due to him being a tweener. Too short to guard some PF's and too heavy to keep up with the SF's.
1 Duncan
2 Pettit
3 Barkley
4 Malone
5 KG
6 Dirk
7 Hayes
8 McHale
9 Webber

10 Between these five players below.
Dave DeBusschere/Gus Johnson/Connie Hawkins (Not sure what you would classify them as. All three played an equal amount of small forward and power forward.)

Heinsohn/Gasol

[Pointguard]

:oldlol: this is completely not true, Barkley was very regular with his performances. dude took 10 boards a game for 15 straight ****ing years at 6'5
your response has absolutely nothing to do with day to day uneven out puts. Day to day consistency is the topic there, not overall average. Or to simplify it further you knew KG, Duncan and Dirk were good for bare minimums 90% of the time. Barkley was the most erratic by far. For you to say its completely untrue you need your head examined. Look at the horrible things Pippen and MJ said about Barkley. He was obviously not a steady guy.



:biggums: what's wrong with you ?
Present your case. KG and Duncan had about 7 years together where they both had between 22 -25ppg, 12-14 Rebs, 4 or 5 assist every year. Dirk 25 and 9 ish for about 7 or 8 years. Barkley numbers were way more erratic year to year game to game. He had a year where he was in beast mode the whole year. But he had blocks of smaller time at this high constant level. Like two two year stints at most. He was the least predictable of having a great game of the bunch.

Of course you are only going to respond with emoticons.

[bizil]

1 Duncan
2 Pettit
3 Barkley
4 Malone
5 KG
6 Dirk
7 Hayes
8 McHale
9 Webber

10 Between these five players below.
Dave DeBusschere/Gus Johnson/Connie Hawkins (Not sure what you would classify them as. All three played an equal amount of small forward and power forward.)

Heinsohn/Gasol

That's a great list! At that number two spot, u could argue Bob P up there for sure! And as u stated, some those guys played lots of SF too so it can be hard to say where they rank. U also have a guy like McAdoo who played mostly PF but had his best years at center.

[Legends66NBA7]

I don't want to jump the gun here, but I'm going to say Anthony Davis is going to be a strong candidate for this list in the future.


Please no career hampering injuries....

[Round Mound]

Barkley erratic? :no: The only thing you can say wrong about him was his rim protection and even that, was pretty good in the Sixers in his physical prime when he could leap like crazy. Barkley was a pretty good team defender, shot blocker and stealer in his prime. Unlike other superstars of his era he was the one that had the weakest defensive centers of them all and when he did have one in Moses: he finishted top 7 in defensive rating in the league. Sadly Moses left for the 85-86 play-offs to the Bullets. Even Bill Cartwright was a good presence inside while having a post game and Jordan was blessed by having the best 2nd option and best sf of the 90s to play with with in Pippen.

This was Chucks Plus/Minus:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/bpm_career.html

BA & ABA Career Leaders and Records for Box Plus/Minus

NBA/ABA
Rank Player BPM

1. LeBron James 9.20
2. Michael Jordan* 8.09
3. Charles Barkley* 7.44
4. Chris Paul 7.39
5. David Robinson* 7.35
6. Magic Johnson* 7.22
7. Larry Bird* 7.17
8. Julius Erving* 6.19
9. Clyde Drexler* 5.98
10. Dwyane Wade 5.87
11. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 5.77
12. Manu Ginobili 5.57
13. Tim Duncan 5.49
14. Kevin Garnett 5.46
15. Karl Malone* 5.40
16. Andrei Kirilenko 5.02
17. Shaquille O'Neal 5.00
18. Bob Lanier* 4.96
19. Hakeem Olajuwon* 4.91
20. Bobby Jones 4.77
21. Scottie Pippen* 4.71
22. Tracy McGrady 4.55
23. Kevin Durant 4.52
24. Joakim Noah 4.39
25. Wes Unseld* 4.35
26. Jason Kidd 4.19
27. Larry Nance 4.18
28. Kobe Bryant 4.14
29. Alvin Robertson 4.00
30. Russell Westbrook 3.98
31. Chris Webber 3.91
32. Artis Gilmore* 3.89
33. Ben Wallace 3.87
34. Marc Gasol 3.86
35. Sidney Moncrief 3.80
36. Alvan Adams 3.72
37. Dirk Nowitzki 3.70
38. Marques Johnson 3.63
39. Fat Lever 3.60
40. Paul Pierce 3.57
41. Pau Gasol 3.53
42. Micheal Ray Richardson 3.52
43. George McGinnis 3.48
44. John Stockton* 3.46
45. Eddie Jones 3.46
46. Bo Outlaw 3.43
47. Vlade Divac 3.31
48. Gary Payton* 3.30
49. Reggie Miller* 3.27
50. Vince Carter 3.26

[Pointguard]

Barkley erratic? :no: The only thing you can say wrong about him was his rim protection and even that, was pretty good in the Sixers in his physical prime when he could leap like crazy. Barkley was a pretty good team defender, shot blocker and stealer in his prime. Unlike other superstars of his era he was the one that had the weakest defensive centers of them all and when he did have one in Moses: he finishted top 7 in defensive rating in the league. Sadly Moses left for the 85-86 play-offs to the Bullets. Even Bill Cartwright was a good presence inside while having a post game and Jordan was blessed by having the best 2nd option and best sf of the 90s to play with with in Pippen.

Barkley could be great at times and I've often said his peak was the best of the bunch. Heck, he was near Jordan level offensively, for a year there. But if he wasn't erratic why would the GOAT dog him out like that? Why would Pippen dog him out as well? You won't ever catch contemporaries talking about the other guys like that. Didn't go to the gym, apparently by the quote below he didn't practice hard.

[B]"He's a very selfish guy," Pippen said of Barkley. "He doesn't show the desire to want to win. That's my reason for wanting to get away from playing with him anymore because he just doesn't show the dedication.

"I probably should've listened to Michael (Jordan) a year ago when he said that Charles will never win a championship because he doesn't show any dedication."

Pippen wasn't finished.

"I was very shocked to see what type of player he was by spending half a season with him," he said of Barkley. "I'm a guy that's dedicated to winning, and I put out a lot of effort on the court. I expect that from my teammates, especially from a guy of his caliber.

"You know he's not willing to go the distance. There's no reason for me to put my last three or four years at risk of never winning.

"Charles is definitely one of the guys that needs to show more leadership for this ballclub to be successful, and he don't show that to me. ... He feels that if he gets 10 rebounds and double-figure points, he's done a good job. But that's not what the game's about. It's about defending, being professional and coming to work every day."

And we are comparing him to Duncan and KG. both of whom nearly never took a play off on either sides of the ball for like 9 years straight. They never even lost intensity. Barkley was known to take games off much less plays and his defense. This isn't even questionable. A guy who plays defense like Barkley is erratic because he approaches the game with two different energies.