Second 3Peat Jordan vs Miami LeBron - Postseason Only

[eliteballer]

Who you got?

Let's include 95 Jordan to make it 4 years for each.

Jordan:

95: 31.5 pts, 6.5 reb, 4.5 ast, 2.3 stl, 1.4 blk, 4.1 to, 48.4 FG%, 36.7 3FG%, 81 FT%(Beat 50-32 Hornets, lost to 57-25 Magic)

96: 30.7 pts, 4.9 reb, 4.1 ast, 1.8 stl, .3 blk, 2.3 to, 45.6 FG%, 40.3 3FG%, 81.8 FT%(Beat 40-42 Heat, 47-35 Knicks, 60-22 Magic, 64-18 Sonics)

97: 31.1 pts, 7.9 reb, 4.8 ast, 1.6 stl, .9 blk, 2.6 to, 45.6 Fg%, 19.4 3P%, 83.1 FT%(Beat 44-38 Bullets, 56-26 Hawks, 61-21 Heat, 64-18 Jazz)

98: 32.4 pts, 5.1 reb, 3.5 ast, 1.5 stl, .6 blk, 2.1 to, 46.2 FG%, 30.2 3FG%, 81.2 FT%(Beat 43-39 Nets, 51-21 Hornets, 58-24 Pacers, 62-20 Jazz)

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html

LeBron:

2011: 23.7 pts, 8.4 reb, 5.9 ast, 1.7 stl, 1.2 blk, 3.1 to, 46.6 FG%, 35.3 3FG%, 76.3 FT%(Beat 41-41 76ers, 56-26 Celtics, 62-20 Bulls, lost to 57-25 Mavs

2012: 30.3 pts, 9.7 reb, 5.6 ast, 1.9 stl, .7 blk, 3.5 to, 50 FG%, 25.9 3FG%, 73.9 FT%(Beat 36-30 Knicks, 42-24 Pacers, 39-27 Celtics, 47-19 Thunder

2013: 25.9 pts, 8.4 reb, 6.6 ast, 1.8 stl, .8 blk, 3.0 to, 49.1 FG%, 37.5 3FG%, 77.7 FT%(Beat 38-44 Bucks, 45-37 Bulls, 49-32 Pacers, 58-24 Spurs)

2014: 27.4 pts, 7.1 reb, 4.8 ast, 1.9 stl, .6 blk, 3.1 to, 56.5 FG%, 40.7 3FG%, 80.6 FT%(Beat 43-39 Bobcats,44-38 Nets, 56-26 Pacers, lost to 62-20 Spurs)

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html

Advanced stats are in the links, but keep in mind the 3 point line was short in 95, 96, and 97, while the physicality was far greater and the pace was worse than during LeBron's run.

[Angel Face]

Second threepeat Jordan was clutch af which is enough reason to take him over Lebron. Playing with flu and hitting a game winner. Game winning assist to Kerr. Game winners against Jazz etc. Legendary playoff performances.

And he didn't get shat on by role players.

[knicksman]

even rookie magic beats lebrons overrated ass

[hahaitme]

For a very clutch player, Jordan sure had a very mediocre FT%

[guy]

For a very clutch player, Jordan sure had a very mediocre FT%

Huh? Over 80% is mediocre?

[guy]

2nd 3peat Jordan. This would be an argument if it weren't for Lebron's historically bad 2011 Finals.

[Roundball_Rock]

Here are the "averages of averages." This is not precise because it weights each run the same despite them playing different numbers of games in different years but it gives us ballpark numbers for comparison.

LeBron: 26.8/8.4/5.7 50.6%/34.9%/77.1%
Jordan: 31.4/6.1/4.2 46.5%/31.7%/81.8%

A caveat is MJ had the benefit of the shortened three point line from 1995-1997, which is why his three point percentage fell from 43% and 37% during the 96' and 97' regular seasons to 24% in 98'.

[raprap]

These comparison threads from different eras suck. The game was different back then from today.

[andgar923]

Considering James couldn't even get past CP3 in an all star game, there is no way he'd get close to beating Starks.

MJ's competition overall>>>> James'

So MJ's is more impressive.

[sportjames23]

LOL, I'm taking any Peat Jordan over Miami Lebron easily.

Is this a serious question, OP? :oldlol:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

2012 LeBron was better than any version of 2nd threepeat Jordan (playoffs), in my opinion.

The 3 year comparison goes to Mike; however, as he actually has an extra Finals MVP along with a Finals series that Bron couldn't touch (32/7/6 + gamewinner + flu game)

[Milbuck]

2012 Lebron is right there with him. Dude was really, really ****ing good that year. It was basically everything we criticized about Lebron..his passiveness, his lack of aggression, his reluctance to post up, etc...all going away. Calculated killer on a mission that year.

Every other year, not quite. 2011 is lolworthy, 2013 was OK overall outside of a couple legendary games, 2014 was good but the finals assrape brings it down.

[sportjames23]

2012 LeBron was better than any version of 2nd threepeat Jordan (playoffs), in my opinion.

The 3 year comparison goes to Mike; however, as he actually has an extra Finals MVP along with a Finals series that Bron couldn't touch (32/7/6 + gamewinner + flu game)


:biggums:

Bro, I'm this close to taking a cue ball upside your head for this foolishness. And you're one of my favorite posters here.

[Kvnzhangyay]

:biggums:

Bro, I'm this close to taking a cue ball upside your head for this foolishness. And you're one of my favorite posters here.

He's right though :/

[Roundball_Rock]

Considering James couldn't even get past CP3 in an all star game, there is no way he'd get close to beating Starks.

MJ's competition overall>>>> James'

So MJ's is more impressive.

:biggums:

Jordan played in a fairly weak era for SG's--and the two best of his contemporaries happened to be in the West (Drexler, Richmond). LeBron had to go through Carmelo, George, Pierce and Durant in 2012 alone.

Jordan scored a few more points but trails in efficiency (despite the aid of the short 3 point line), rebounding, assists. LeBron also was his team's #1 defensive option during the years in question; Jordan was not.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

:biggums:

Bro, I'm this close to taking a cue ball upside your head for this foolishness. And you're one of my favorite posters here.

You don't think so? I give Mike the 3 year edge EASILY - but 2012 LeBron was his best season to date. Dude had series' of 30/11/6, 34/11/4, 29/10/7 along with high shooting percentages (keep in mind these were ALL against good-great defenses). Under duress and minutes away from elimination, LeBron played about as good as can be with a masterful 45/15/5 performance (on the road) which subsequently closed out Boston and the big 3.

His playoff run was all-time great, dude. His key performances and championship play speak for themself.

[SamuraiSWISH]

A caveat is MJ had the benefit of the shortened three point line from 1995-1997, which is why his three point percentage fell from 43% and 37% during the 96' and 97' regular seasons to 24% in 98'.
Actually the reason was an injured wrist.

He shot worse from the 3 point line the previous playoffs in '97 with the shortened line. MJ didn't shoot many 3's to begin with anyway, so it's a non issue.

From the normal distance 3 point line in the playoffs he's shot:

30% in '98
39% in '93
39% in '92
39% in '91
32% in '90

So it isn't like he couldn't convert that shot at a high pecentage anyway when making it an emphasis on his game.

2011 - 2014 LeBron is the better individual player than '95 - '98 MJ, statistically especially. But Jordan was still the better scorer, and ultimately winner. Jordan's resume in that time frame is better. LeBron's peak in 2012 playoffs, and 2013 regular season is higher than the best MJ played at during that time frame.

[andgar923]

James wouldn't get close to beating the Knicks to name one team.

This is bullshit thread.

[fpliii]

Actually the reason was an injured wrist.

He shot worse from the 3 point line the previous playoffs in '97 with the shortened line. MJ didn't shoot many 3's to begin with anyway, so it's a non issue.

From the normal distance 3 point line in the playoffs he's shot:

30% in '98
39% in '93
39% in '92
39% in '91
32% in '90

So it isn't like he couldn't convert that shot at a high pecentage anyway when making it an emphasis on his game.

2011 - 2014 LeBron is the better individual player than '95 - '98 MJ, statistically especially. But Jordan was still the better scorer, and ultimately winner. His resume in that time frame is better. LeBron's peak in 2012 playoffs, and 2013 regular season is higher than the best MJ played at during that time frame.

3 for 3 v.s. 2 for 4.
2x MVPs and 3x Finals MVPs v.s. 2x MVPs and 2x Finals MVPs.
We actually do have MJ's numbers from full three-point distance for 96-97:

http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/shooting/?Season=1996-97

45/133 (34%) during the season.

[Roundball_Rock]

Jordan was a poor three point shooter throughout his career, other than when the three point line was shortened.

Winning is a team game. One guy's team won 55 games with a D-League scrub replacing him; the other guy's team is .400 without him. MJ stans always invoke team success without any context (unless it is vis-

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Jordan was a poor three point shooter throughout his career, other than when the three point line was shortened.

Winning is a team game. One guy's team won 55 games with a scrub replacing him; the other guy's team is .400 without him. Jordan was more clutch, the better scorer, though.
LeBron is the better 3PT shooter, but Jordan was actually a pretty damn good one in the playoffs; multiple runs of ~39+% shooting when the 3PT line was regularized (applicable volume).

[ArbitraryWater]

So now second three peat MJ is as good as 2012-2014 LeBron? :biggums:

[OldSchoolBBall]

Jordan was a poor three point shooter throughout his career, other than when the three point line was shortened.

Except that that's not true.

[quote]Winning is a team game. One guy's team won 55 games with a D-League scrub replacing him; the other guy's team is .400 without him. MJ stans always invoke team success without any context (unless it is vis-

[Roundball_Rock]

So now second three peat MJ is as good as 2012-2014 LeBron? :biggums:

It is interesting to see the heavy skew in favor of MJ since 1996-1998 MJ was similar to 2008-2010 Kobe (30/6/6 in the playoffs)--but no one would take 2008-2010 Kobe over 2011-2014 LeBron.

Good point, Kuniva.

[Jacks3]

It is interesting to see the heavy skew in favor of MJ since 1996-1998 MJ was similar to 2008-2010 Kobe (30/6/6 in the playoffs)--but no one would take 2008-2010 Kobe over 2011-2014 LeBron.

Good point, Kuniva.
Well Jordan was even better than Bryant but I agree. This is LeBron.

[Young X]

Without looking at numbers, if I had to rank them:

'12 Bron
'98 MJ/'14 Bron
'96 MJ
'97 MJ
'13 Bron


'95 MJ
'11 Bron

'14 Bron was probably better than '98 MJ but MJ's run was more impressive to me (won his 6th ring and faced tougher competition). I'm biased, **** it.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Without looking at numbers, if I had to rank them:

'12 Bron
'98 MJ/'14 Bron
'96 MJ
'97 MJ
'13 Bron


'95 MJ
'11 Bron

'14 Bron was probably better than '98 MJ but MJ's run was more impressive to me (won his 6th ring and faced tougher competition). I'm biased, **** it.

Interesting. Why '98 Jordan/'14 LeBron > '97 Jordan? Agree w/ the last two years. Those are easy. :oldlol:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

It is interesting to see the heavy skew in favor of MJ since 1996-1998 MJ was similar to 2008-2010 Kobe (30/6/6 in the playoffs)--but no one would take 2008-2010 Kobe over 2011-2014 LeBron.

Good point, Kuniva.
Yeah, a lot of people downplay his 3PT shooting (rightfully so as there are idiots who believe Mike was the best at everything), but the dude was a sharp shooter around the 1990 - 93 seasons. Oddly enough, I think the weight-lifting and added muscle actually helped his range a bit.

[Young X]

Interesting. Why '98 Jordan/'14 LeBron > '97 Jordan? Agree w/ the last two years. Those are easy. :oldlol:Because Jordan's series against Miami is probably the worst series of his career and worse than any series that '98 MJ or '14 Bron had. My list is probably not that accurate but I'm just going off the top of my head.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Because Jordan's series against Miami is probably the worst series of his career and worse than any series that '98 MJ or '14 Bron had. My list is probably not that accurate but I'm just going off the top of my head.
Good point. My only counter-argument would be that it didn't negate his finals series he had in 1997 (his best of the 2nd threepeat), and the other 2 rounds where he averaged 37/6/5 and 27/10/5 (probably his best all-around series of the 2nd threepeat as well).

[Young X]

Good point. My only counter-argument would be that it didn't negate his finals series he had in 1997 (his best of the 2nd threepeat), and the other 2 rounds where he averaged 37/6/5 and 27/10/5 (probably his best all-around series of the 2nd threepeat as well).That series didn't negate his finals (underrated, ridiculously clutch series) but '14 Bron and '98 MJ didn't have any bad/mediocre series, they played at a high level all 4 rounds. Consistency is why I put them higher.

[Roundball_Rock]

Good point. My only counter-argument would be that it didn't negate his finals series he had in 1997 (his best of the 2nd threepeat), and the other 2 rounds where he averaged 37/6/5 and 27/10/5 (probably his best all-around series of the 2nd threepeat as well).

Agreed. 97' was MJ's most impressive playoff run of the second three-peat imo. He had to carry a huge load that year--almost leading the team in rebounding, leading it in assists and scoring during the playoffs. The team's #3 scoring option averaged only 8 on 36% in the playoffs.

[Beastmode88]

Agreed. 97' was MJ's most impressive playoff run of the second three-peat imo. He had to carry a huge load that year--almost leading the team in rebounding, leading it in assists and scoring during the playoffs. The team's #3 scoring option averaged only 8 on 36% in the playoffs.

:wtf: :wtf: :wtf: Roundball_Rock giving MJ some credit?

[sportjames23]

:wtf: :wtf: :wtf: Roundball_Rock giving MJ some credit?


Holy--!

**** this shit, I'm out. The end is nigh.

[Legends66NBA7]

Agreed. 97' was MJ's most impressive playoff run of the second three-peat imo. He had to carry a huge load that year--almost leading the team in rebounding, leading it in assists and scoring during the playoffs. The team's #3 scoring option averaged only 8 on 36% in the playoffs.

Best defensive year out of the 3 too ? Or is that 96 ?

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Agreed. 97' was MJ's most impressive playoff run of the second three-peat imo. He had to carry a huge load that year--almost leading the team in rebounding, leading it in assists and scoring during the playoffs. The team's #3 scoring option averaged only 8 on 36% in the playoffs.
:applause:

[guy]

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]Jordan was a poor three point shooter throughout his career, other than when the three point line was shortened.

Winning is a team game. One guy's team won 55 games with a D-League scrub replacing him; the other guy's team is .400 without him. MJ stans always invoke team success without any context (unless it is vis-

[juju151111]

:oldlol: wow what a nut. This agenda reference came out of nowhere.
Exactly lmao

[guy]

Except that that's not true.



lmao @ this troll. Try harder next time. :oldlol: lol @ bringing up this 55 win shit yet AGAIN.

Dudes a joke.

"Roundball Rock presents 1994: The Year that means everything"

[TheMarkMadsen]

That series didn't negate his finals (underrated, ridiculously clutch series) but '14 Bron and '98 MJ didn't have any bad/mediocre series, they played at a high level all 4 rounds. Consistency is why I put them higher.

23/6/6 in the ECF is pretty damn mediocre when being compared to the GOAT

i doubt MJ makes the makes the finals if he only averages 23ppg in the ECF

[SamuraiSWISH]

Without looking at numbers, if I had to rank them:

'12 Bron
'98 MJ/'14 Bron
'96 MJ
'97 MJ
'13 Bron


'95 MJ
'11 Bron

'14 Bron was probably better than '98 MJ but MJ's run was more impressive to me (won his 6th ring and faced tougher competition). I'm biased, **** it.
Even though he had a poor series v.s. the Heat in the ECF (best defense in the league besides Chicago) ... I thought the 1997 playoffs was MJ's best of the 2nd three peat. His all around numbers were really good.

LeBron's 2013 would've been perfect if he performed as he had in the 2012 playoffs, and Finals. Besides his memorable game 7 v.s. SAS, and some nice ones v.s. Indiana, being honest ... he was underwhelming.

For me, I'd go:

1) 2012 LeBron
2) 1997 MJ
3) 1996 MJ
4) 2014 LeBron
5) 2013 LeBron
6) 1998 MJ
7) 1995 MJ
8) 2011 LeBron

I'm curious bro, throw in 2008 - 2010 Kobe into this list how you'd rank the individual seasons, as well as the entirety of their runs.

Let's narrow this comparison down just to seasons where each guy took his team to the Finals. So:

MJ from '96 - '98
LeBron 2011 - 2014
Kobe 2008 - 2010


Best defensive year out of the 3 too ? Or is that 96 ?
Equal. I remember MJ's defense on Rod Strickland's unstoppable dribble penetration being a reason Washington got molly whopped.

[andgar923]

Lol @ people concentrating on 3pt shooting when MJ was significantly better at everything else offensively.

Serious question:

If the life of your loved ones was on one of their hands, who would you trust the most to save them?

I'm going with MJ 10/10 times

You'd be a murderer to pick bron.

[eliteballer]

Well, I think it's Jordan no question. He was about a thousand miles more clutch, and could carve up defenses much better because of his skillset.

LeBron disappeared a lot against teams like the Pacers and Spurs.

I'm not overly impressed with 2012 either. A lockout shortened season and his best comp was a broken down Celtics squad and a green Thunder team.

[SamuraiSWISH]

I'm not overly impressed with 2012 either. A lockout shortened season and his best comp was a broken down Celtics squad and a green Thunder team.
The Celtics were the best defense in the league, and Rondo was at his peak. His performances kind of elevated the fact that the big three that year were officially past their prime. I agree about the shortened season though, and the rash of injuries that plagued everyone that season. OKC had the talent to compete though. Harden disappearing is what messed things up for them.

[TheMarkMadsen]

The Celtics were the best defense in the league, and Rondo was at his peak. His performances kind of elevated the fact that the big three that year were officially past their prime. I agree about the shortened season though, and the rash of injuries that plagued everyone that season. OKC had the talent to compete though. Harden disappearing is what messed things up for them.

Boston was bottom 5 offense in the league

[Collie]

The late 90's playoffs, especially in the East, were bump and grind affairs that were extremely physical. EVERYBODY had low FG% during the playoffs then. Hell, I remember NY/Miami series scores were in the 70's.

[eliteballer]

Does anyone have stats adjusted for pace/defense:confusedshrug:

[eliteballer]

The late 90's playoffs, especially in the East, were bump and grind affairs that were extremely physical. EVERYBODY had low FG% during the playoffs then. Hell, I remember NY/Miami series scores were in the 70's.

:applause: :applause: :applause: :bowdown:

[eliteballer]

Does anyone have stats adjusted for pace/defense:confusedshrug:

Also for strength of competition:coleman:

[juju151111]

97-05 was a tough defensive era. Shit caused the league the change everything. PGs now can roam free and dominate like no other.

[DatAsh]

2012 and 2013 Lebron for me are ever so slightly better than any version of second three peat Jordan, at least tangibly.

2011 was probably one of the worst things I've seen from a player of that caliber, but I still would give Lebron the slight edge here.

[pauk]

1st 3Peat Jordan >>>>>>>> Lebron > 2nd 3Peat Jordan.

1st 3peat MJ was the greatest shit i ever seen.

[Young X]

I'm curious bro, throw in 2008 - 2010 Kobe into this list how you'd rank the individual seasons, as well as the entirety of their runs.

Let's narrow this comparison down just to seasons where each guy took his team to the Finals. So:

MJ from '96 - '98
LeBron 2011 - 2014
Kobe 2008 - 2010'12 Bron
'98 MJ
'09 Kobe/'96 MJ
'97 MJ/'14 Bron
'08 Kobe
'10 Kobe
'13 Bron

'11 Bron

This list is too hard, couldn't choose between '09 Kobe, '96 and '97 MJ and '14 Bron. Maybe I think too highly of what MJ and the Bulls did in '98, they were so close to losing in the ECF and Finals yet they still pulled it off even though they were running on fumes.

I also agree with you about Lebron's 2013 season. He had one of the GOAT regular seasons but was underwhelming in the playoffs even though he still played well. Combine his 2013 regular season with his 2012 playoff run and you have one of the greatest seasons of all time.

[Beastmode88]

1st 3Peat Jordan >>>>>>>> Lebron > 2nd 3Peat Jordan.

1st 3peat MJ was the greatest shit i ever seen.


Is this opposite day? Roundball and pauk giving mj credit? :biggums: :biggums: :biggums:

[mehyaM24]

lebron was the better player; jordan had the more successful seasons (team achievements).

[SamuraiSWISH]

This list is too hard, couldn't choose between '09 Kobe, '96 and '97 MJ and '14 Bron.
It is ... 2008 - 2010 Kobe is about the same level as '96 - '98 MJ. LeBron was slightly better than both.

But LeBron's level of play, or his results aren't near as great as you think he should've had considering his team, competition faced, and that he was in his absolute prime.

For comparison sakes Kobe's prime ended after the 2008 season. MJ's ended before the 1996 season even began.

Kobe's 2008 season was a great Finals performance and ring away from being the best individual season on the list.

LeBron's 2013 season was a great 2012 esque playoffs away from being leaps and bounds the best season on the list.


Maybe I think too highly of what MJ and the Bulls did in '98, they were so close to losing in the ECF and Finals yet they still pulled it off even though they were running on fumes.
1998 was very impressive, contextually but in terms of actual individual impact ... I can't be un-bias as a basketball fan and say he was better than he was. That was his weakest season as a Bull that I had ever seen. Obviously was still impressive given his age.

If I'm ranking them strictly as players of individual capability, from the eye test, in combination with stats ... and their ultimate production, and results.

1) 2012 LeBron
2) 1997 MJ
3) 1996 MJ
4) 2009 Kobe
5) 2013 LeBron
6) 1998 MJ
7) 2010 Kobe
8) 2014 LeBron
9) 2008 Kobe
10) 2011 LeBron


Entire Runs:

1) '96 - '98 MJ: 3x Finals Appearances, 3x Chips, 2x MVPs, 3x FMPs
2) '11 - '14 LeBron: 4x Finals Appearances, 2x Chips, 2x MVPs, 2x FMVPs
3) '08 - '10 Kobe: 3x Finals Appearances, 2x Chips, MVP, 2x FMVPs

[Young X]

^ Good post, crazy how MJ past his prime still had comparable/better seasons than Kobe and Lebron in their primes. He has to have the best non prime out of any great. You could argue he was a top 5 player in every full season from '85-'98. Insane.

[eliteballer]

^ Good post, crazy how MJ past his prime still had comparable/better seasons than Kobe and Lebron in their primes. He has to have the best non prime out of any great. You could argue he was a top 5 player in every full season from '85-'98. Insane.

That's not Kobe's prime. Kobe the year they beat the Magic was the same age LeBron is now, and he had major knee issues in 09 and 10. He was a shell of what he was athletically.


Kobe (08-10) vs LeBron (11-14)

Playoff runs

Kobe: 30/6/6/2 on 47%. Defeated ten 50+ teams

Lebron: 27/8/6/2 on 50%. Defeated four 50+ win teams.

Also why ignore pace, defense, and the fact that LeBron played the worst competition by far, with the most stacked team in relation to competition?

[SamuraiSWISH]

^ Good post, crazy how MJ past his prime still had comparable/better seasons than Kobe and Lebron in their primes. He has to have the best non prime out of any great. You could argue he was a top 5 player in every full season from '85-'98. Insane.
Exactly my point. Just shows how GOAT was GOATin ...

This is a good debate on who was best between past prime MJ to absolute PRIME LeBron. With tail end prime Kobe making an argument as well. This is the only debate you'll see though. Because ...

'90 - '93 prime Jordan absolutely MOLLY WHOPS both of them. Shame he was swinging at curveballs in '94, and much of '95. What would've been the last few seasons of prime MJ.

[Young X]

That's not Kobe's prime. Kobe the year they beat the Magic was the same age LeBron is now, and he had major knee issues in 09 and 10. He was a shell of what he was athletically.



Also why ignore pace, defense, and the fact that LeBron played the worst competition by far, with the most stacked team in relation to competition?How was '09 not Kobe's prime? He led his team to a 65 win record and had his best playoff run en route to a championship. His prime was from '03-'09 and Jordan's 2nd 3-peat years are comparable to/better than all of them, just like I said.

[SamuraiSWISH]

How was '09 not Kobe's prime?
Was definitely the tail end of Kobe's prime. Same way 1994 and 1995 would've been the tail end of Jordan's had he not been playing baseball.

[Sarcastic]

Jordan beat five 60+ win teams and won 3 rings. James beat one 60+ win teams and won 2 rings.

Jordan's run was better, especially when you consider James' 2011 finals, which was one of the worst I have ever seen for a top 10 player.

[dunksby]

Does anyone have stats adjusted for pace/defense:confusedshrug:
Raw stats are definitely misleading for comparing players from different eras, this is better:

Per 100 Poss (adjusted for pace)

Jordan
95: 41.1 Pts/8.5 R/5.9 Ast/3.0 Stl/1.8 Blk/5.4 TOs
96: 41.6 Pts/6.7 R/5.6 Ast/2.4 Stl/0.5 Blk/3.2 TOs
97: 41.2 Pts/10.5 R/6.4 Ast/2.1 Stl/1.2 Blk/3.4 TOs
98: 44.5 Pts/7.0 R/4.8 Ast/2.0 Stl/0.8 Blk/2.9 TOs

LeBron:

11: 30.0 Pts/10.6 R/7.4 Ast/2.1 Stl/1.5 Blk/4.0 TOs
12: 38.7 Pts/12.4 R/7.2 Ast/2.4 Stl/0.9 Blk/3.2 TOs
13: 34.1 Pts/11.0 R/8.7 Ast/2.3 Stl/1.0 Blk/4.0 TOs
14: 40.0 Pts/10.0 R/6.9 Ast/2.7 Stl/0.8 Blk/4.5 TOs

[T_L_P]

:biggums:

Jordan played in a fairly weak era for SG's--and the two best of his contemporaries happened to be in the West (Drexler, Richmond). LeBron had to go through Carmelo, George, Pierce and Durant in 2012 alone.

Jordan scored a few more points but trails in efficiency (despite the aid of the short 3 point line), rebounding, assists. LeBron also was his team's #1 defensive option during the years in question; Jordan was not.

Paul George averaged 10/6 in 2012. He wasn't shit. :biggums:

[Rose'sACL]

Paul George averaged 10/6 in 2012. He wasn't shit. :biggums:
jordan is the GOAT but not by as big as a margin as most people think.
This post should really end this thread but biased posters on both sides would never accept it.

[Mr Feeny]

Here are the "averages of averages." This is not precise because it weights each run the same despite them playing different numbers of games in different years but it gives us ballpark numbers for comparison.

LeBron: 26.8/8.4/5.7 50.6%/34.9%/77.1%
Jordan: 31.4/6.1/4.2 46.5%/31.7%/81.8%

A caveat is MJ had the benefit of the shortened three point line from 1995-1997, which is why his three point percentage fell from 43% and 37% during the 96' and 97' regular seasons to 24% in 98'.

Err...that would be because of his damaged index finger. Ofcourse you, having not watched any of the games, have no clue what you're talking about. As per usual.

[LeJohn Janes]

I might be wrong but I don't remember Patty Mills blowing by Jordan at any point so on that basis I'll go with MJ.

[ArbitraryWater]

2012 and 2013 Lebron for me are ever so slightly better than any version of second three peat Jordan, at least tangibly.

2011 was probably one of the worst things I've seen from a player of that caliber, but I still would give Lebron the slight edge here.

Agreed, as a player, I would take 2011 LeBron over any of those MJ/Kobe versions, wouldn't think about it much either.

2009/2010 LeBron blows them out of the water.

Again, peak MJ is a wayyy different story.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Agreed, as a player, I would take 2011 LeBron over any of those MJ/Kobe versions, wouldn't think about it much either.

2009/2010 LeBron blows them out of the water.

Again, peak MJ is a wayyy different story.

I'm assuming you meant 2012 LeBron, but yeah, no, 2010 LeBron doesn't "blow them out of the water", especially after his performance vs. Boston (the Houdini disappearing act in game 4, and being eliminated in the series he and Cleveland were HEAVILY favored in--for reference, neither Kobe or MJ lost with homecourt or series in which they were favored).

[guy]

I'm assuming you meant 2012 LeBron, but yeah, no, 2010 LeBron doesn't "blow them out of the water", especially after his performance vs. Boston (the Houdini disappearing act in game 4, and being eliminated in the series he and Cleveland were HEAVILY favored in--for reference, neither Kobe or MJ lost with homecourt or series in which they were favored).

Kobe lost in 04 and 11 with home court. He was also favored in the 04 and 08 finals.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Kobe lost in 04 and 11 with home court. He was also favored in the 04 and 08 finals.
I'm only talking about the years in comparison. 2004 and 2011 weren't discussed.

The Lakers in 2008 weren't heavily favored, by the way. In fact, aside from maybe ESPN, many had Boston winning in those finals.

[ArbitraryWater]

I'm assuming you meant 2012 LeBron, but yeah, no, 2010 LeBron doesn't "blow them out of the water", especially after his performance vs. Boston (the Houdini disappearing act in game 4, and being eliminated in the series he and Cleveland were HEAVILY favored in--for reference, neither Kobe or MJ lost with homecourt or series in which they were favored).

This houdini act is 2 bad games, but he also had 2 monster performances which top most of MJ's (and Kobe's anyway).

2010 LeBron went to another level, really. Dude was doing everything.

Most APG of any non PG ever.

In 13 games as PG with the absence of Mo Williams he averaged:
31.7 points per game, 10.8 assists per game, 7.3 rpg
Cavaliers Record: 12-1

These are 11 of the 13 games as PG without Mo:

28 points, 9 rebounds, 11 assists vs. Toronto Raptors
37 points, 9 assists vs. Los Angeles Lakers
37 points, 9 rebounds, 13 assists vs. Oklahoma City Thunder
32 points, 9 rebounds, 14 assists vs. Miami Heat
22 points, 9 rebounds, 13 assists vs. Los Angeles Clippers
22 points, 6 rebounds, 15 assists vs. Memphis Grizzlies
36 points, 7 rebounds, 8 assists vs. Miami Heat
47 points, 8 rebounds, 8 assists vs. New York Knicks
32 points, 8 rebounds, 13 assists vs. Orlando Magic
43 points, 13 rebounds, 15 assists vs. Denver Nuggets

averages: 31.7ppg 7.3rpg 10.8apg 1.8spg 1.2bpg on 48%

I'm close to considering it his peak.

LeBron's never won a series shooting under 42%, Mike's won 3 shooting under 42%. LBJ routinely (has to) lead his teams in all 5 categories.

Not just has Kobe lost with HCA, but he's had some insanely shitty performances with HCA where he got away with the win... Shaq era, 2010 1R and a poor 2010 Finals. You can't compare it straight up to Mike's/LeBron's HCA records.

[Im Still Ballin]

Many are forgetting context... Lebron James' 2012 run was one of the greatest crusades in NBA history...

On the brink of anarchy, on the edge of annihilation... his tarnished reputation, damaged soul, defamation of character... He shut it all out and executed on the grandest stage of them all. No other player at that level has been challenged by that much external inertia...

"Glory waits for those that are willing to work forever"

[DatAsh]

You don't think so? I give Mike the 3 year edge EASILY - but 2012 LeBron was his best season to date. Dude had series' of 30/11/6, 34/11/4, 29/10/7 along with high shooting percentages (keep in mind these were ALL against good-great defenses). Under duress and minutes away from elimination, LeBron played about as good as can be with a masterful 45/15/5 performance (on the road) which subsequently closed out Boston and the big 3.

His playoff run was all-time great, dude. His key performances and championship play speak for themself.

Agreed.

I wish Lebron could have capped off his 2013 season with a similar playoff performance.

[guy]

I'm only talking about the years in comparison. 2004 and 2011 weren't discussed.

The Lakers in 2008 weren't heavily favored, by the way. In fact, aside from maybe ESPN, many had Boston winning in those finals.

The media was definitely favoring them. I'll admit, I don't remember who was favored otherwise, like by Vegas. Obviously looking back it's hard to imagine given the matchups, but since Boston had a pretty hard time in the first 3 rounds while the Lakers dominated, most people were predicting the Lakers to win.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

This houdini act is 2 bad games, but he also had 2 monster performances which top most of MJ's (and Kobe's anyway).

The series of his career up until that point...

I'll agree that LeBron's regular season was better than those particular years from Kobe and Mike, but the playoffs is where you make your name. LeBron disappointed everyone.

As a whole, I would take 1996/1997 Jordan > 2010 LeBron. I could be wrong, but Jordan, in his physical prime, never had multiple games in a series which left you scratching your head, thinking "What the **** happened to this guy? Where is he?"

I'm a big proponent of postseason play and intangibles; and Mike has 2010 LeBron beat. I wouldn't argue with 2009 though. You're absolutely right there.

[ArbitraryWater]

The series of his career up until that point...

I'll agree that LeBron's regular season was better than those particular years from Kobe and Mike, but the playoffs is where you make your name. LeBron disappointed everyone.

As a whole, I would take 1996/1997 Jordan > 2010 LeBron. I could be wrong, but Jordan, in his physical prime, never had multiple games in a series which left you scratching your head, thinking "What the **** happened to this guy? Where is he?"

I'm a big proponent of postseason play and intangibles; and Mike has 2010 LeBron beat. I wouldn't argue with 2009 though. You're absolutely right there.

Well, see this is the hard part....

Lebron 2010, realistically, is just a better player than 1996-1998 Mike... he is. Why?

There are differences in circumstances from carrying a team and being a part of a stacked one (MJ carried the Bulls offensively, no doubt, but they had plenty of lockdown defenders).

MJ had a 4-15 and 9-35 game, followed by another 11-31 game in the ECF, did anyone scratched their head asking whats wrong with MJ in that series? I doubt it... its just past-peak MJ, more prone to having horrible shooting games... LeBron had his 3-12 game and the 27/19/10 game 6. I wouldn't say either one had 2 poor games that stick out among the other. LeBron had too many TO's for his to win, MJ had WAY too many misses (26).

MJ was 30/8/3 on 39%, while needing to carry the scoring load, on a loaded defensive team, won in 5 games.
LeBron was 27/9/7 on 45%, on the less stacked team of the series, leading them in virtually every category and one ATG performance in which be broke out for 21 after the first, 30 at halftime and barely tried to score in the 2nd because they were winning comfortably.

So I don't think he has him beat in postseason play either (think of the historic stuff LeBron would have done with a better team that advances), or down series.

[guy]

Well, see this is the hard part....

Lebron 2010, realistically, is just a better player than 1996-1998 Mike... he is. Why?

There are differences in circumstances from carrying a team and being a part of a stacked one (MJ carried the Bulls offensively, no doubt, but they had plenty of lockdown defenders).

MJ had a 4-15 and 9-35 game, followed by another 11-31 game in the ECF, did anyone scratched their head asking whats wrong with MJ in that series? I doubt it... its just past-peak MJ, more prone to having horrible shooting games... LeBron had his 3-12 game and the 27/19/10 game 6. I wouldn't say either one had 2 poor games that stick out among the other. LeBron had too many TO's for his to win, MJ had WAY too many misses (26).

MJ was 30/8/3 on 39%, while needing to carry the scoring load, on a loaded defensive team, won in 5 games.
LeBron was 27/9/7 on 45%, on the less stacked team of the series, leading them in virtually every category and one ATG performance in which be broke out for 21 after the first, 30 at halftime and barely tried to score in the 2nd because they were winning comfortably.

So I don't think he has him beat in postseason play either (think of the historic stuff LeBron would have done with a better team that advances), or down series.

Lebron's games weren't just bad games. Everyone has bad games. Jordan has had bad games. Lebron has had games that were just "bad" games and nothing more. But there was clearly a lack of effort in that game 5, very much like his 2011 Finals, and game 6 while there was some effort, he clearly looked like he was just going through his motions and showed a complete lack of leadership (almost like he knew that was his last game with the Cavs.) Jordan's games weren't anything like that. Sure, the numbers might be equally bad, but the difference in effort and leadership matters because it sets the tone of the game and your team. If the leader of the team basically looks like he gave up, its pretty hard for the rest of the team not to give up as well. But if the leader of the team is just having a bad game yet still trying to do all he can to win, the rest of the team is most likely to still get behind you.

I don't really care if one superstar player is a little more productive then another if at the end of the season in the biggest games of all, he basically turns into another person and plays with much less effort and intensity. I'd much rather someone who is more consistent and is still one of the most dominant players of all-time anyway.

And by the way, production isn't everything. Its very doubtful 2010 Lebron makes the 96-98 Bulls as successful as Jordan did. He's way too ball dominant, and probably gets way more in the way of certain players like Pippen and Kukoc as a result. If they switched teams, I'd give Jordan a better chance of replicating or surpassing each team's success then Lebron.

And you asked to think of the historic stuff Lebron would've done with a better team that advances. Like who? The 2011 Heat?

[ArbitraryWater]

Lebron's games weren't just bad games. Everyone has bad games. Jordan has had bad games. Lebron has had games that were just "bad" games and nothing more. But there was clearly a lack of effort in that game 5, very much like his 2011 Finals, and game 6 while there was some effort, he clearly looked like he was just going through his motions and showed a complete lack of leadership (almost like he knew that was his last game with the Cavs.) Jordan's games weren't anything like that. Sure, the numbers might be equally bad, but the difference in effort and leadership matters because it sets the tone of the game and your team. If the leader of the team basically looks like he gave up, its pretty hard for the rest of the team not to give up as well. But if the leader of the team is just having a bad game yet still trying to do all he can to win, the rest of the team is most likely to still get behind you.

I don't really care if one superstar player is a little more productive then another if at the end of the season in the biggest games of all, he basically turns into another person and plays with much less effort and intensity. I'd much rather someone who is more consistent and is still one of the most dominant players of all-time anyway.

And by the way, production isn't everything. Its very doubtful 2010 Lebron makes the 96-98 Bulls as successful as Jordan did. He's way too ball dominant, and probably gets way more in the way of certain players like Pippen and Kukoc as a result. If they switched teams, I'd give Jordan a better chance of replicating or surpassing each team's success then Lebron.

And you asked to think of the historic stuff Lebron would've done with a better team that advances. Like who? The 2011 Heat?

I agree, it's just these things are very hard to gauge... I fail to see any lack of effort or leadership in LeBron's game 6.

His game 5 was way different, though. I guess he kind of set himself up to see if his team could sustain a bad performance of his (ala Kobe game 7), and if he would lose, he could switch teams... Why would he go if they win the title? But he knew if he finds a team with an appropriate supporting cast, he won't be burned out as quickly.. thats just my theory. Ironically, the year he had it the easiest he lost because of... not sure he knows. Probably because it all got to him.

To the bolded: Isn't that kind of easy? Like, um, the stuff he did last year? Or in the previous round, even?

Hell, he beasted in the Celtics/Bulls series'.

Unless you think that irrelevant of what team, LeBron would always have that 2011 finals series.

[GimmeThat]

you can ask Spoelstra this question, and then you ask Jackson this question

as in giving Spoelstra the retro respect on how he may have re-coached the situations on those championship team.


:basketball

[macpierce]

Back in 2008 the Celtics killed the Lakers in the regular season, not sure why the lakers were favored....especially with Bynum and Ariza sidelined.

Yeah Kobe should of played better though...

[tpols]

Lebron's games weren't just bad games. Everyone has bad games. Jordan has had bad games. Lebron has had games that were just "bad" games and nothing more. But there was clearly a lack of effort in that game 5, very much like his 2011 Finals, and game 6 while there was some effort, he clearly looked like he was just going through his motions and showed a complete lack of leadership (almost like he knew that was his last game with the Cavs.) Jordan's games weren't anything like that. Sure, the numbers might be equally bad, but the difference in effort and leadership matters because it sets the tone of the game and your team. If the leader of the team basically looks like he gave up, its pretty hard for the rest of the team not to give up as well. But if the leader of the team is just having a bad game yet still trying to do all he can to win, the rest of the team is most likely to still get behind you.

I don't really care if one superstar player is a little more productive then another if at the end of the season in the biggest games of all, he basically turns into another person and plays with much less effort and intensity. I'd much rather someone who is more consistent and is still one of the most dominant players of all-time anyway.

And by the way, production isn't everything. Its very doubtful 2010 Lebron makes the 96-98 Bulls as successful as Jordan did. He's way too ball dominant, and probably gets way more in the way of certain players like Pippen and Kukoc as a result. If they switched teams, I'd give Jordan a better chance of replicating or surpassing each team's success then Lebron.

And you asked to think of the historic stuff Lebron would've done with a better team that advances. Like who? The 2011 Heat?

Bron stans will never understand that.. giving up in a crucial game 5.. a swing game. Not even trying. It sets the tone for your teammates. He'd be better off going 7-21 or something at least play with passion and energy. That was the series he had that fake elbow injury and rondo torched the cavs.

In 2008 lebron shot like shit and had some epically bad games against the Celtics but he was visibly attacking and trying.. his team won multiple games with him shooting 30 something percent.. and took a better peak celtics team further than they took them in 2010

[Da_Realist]

Lebron's games weren't just bad games. Everyone has bad games. Jordan has had bad games. Lebron has had games that were just "bad" games and nothing more. But there was clearly a lack of effort in that game 5, very much like his 2011 Finals, and game 6 while there was some effort, he clearly looked like he was just going through his motions and showed a complete lack of leadership (almost like he knew that was his last game with the Cavs.) Jordan's games weren't anything like that. Sure, the numbers might be equally bad, but the difference in effort and leadership matters because it sets the tone of the game and your team. If the leader of the team basically looks like he gave up, its pretty hard for the rest of the team not to give up as well. But if the leader of the team is just having a bad game yet still trying to do all he can to win, the rest of the team is most likely to still get behind you.

I don't really care if one superstar player is a little more productive then another if at the end of the season in the biggest games of all, he basically turns into another person and plays with much less effort and intensity. I'd much rather someone who is more consistent and is still one of the most dominant players of all-time anyway.

And by the way, production isn't everything. Its very doubtful 2010 Lebron makes the 96-98 Bulls as successful as Jordan did. He's way too ball dominant, and probably gets way more in the way of certain players like Pippen and Kukoc as a result. If they switched teams, I'd give Jordan a better chance of replicating or surpassing each team's success then Lebron.

And you asked to think of the historic stuff Lebron would've done with a better team that advances. Like who? The 2011 Heat?

+1

I'd take MJ's heart and intangibles over Lebron's dominant stats any day. Even in his bad games, you saw the effort. Pull up any of the Sonics games from the 96 Finals and look how hard MJ worked to get ball. They threw 3-4 defenders at him with fresh legs every quarter and worked like hell to prevent him from getting the ball. You'll see him putting in more work to get the space needed to receive the ball than most players do after receiving it. The effort was always there.

For example, let's look at a "bad" game -- 1998 ECF Game 7 vs Indiana



The Pacers took an early 20-8 lead, but Rodman gave Chicago a lift coming off the bench. The Bulls were up by two at halftime, and in the locker room Jordan unleashed a tirade at his teammates for not playing hard enough. In the third quarter, Kukoc played big, hitting three threes. But Indiana would not go away, and late in the fourth quarter the game seemed to be slipping away from the Bulls. Jordan in particular looked exhausted, and his shooting reflected it -- he made only nine of twenty-five shots and only ten of fifteen free throws. But he refused to be defeated, here on his home court in a game whose loss would deny him his rightful chance to go to the Finals one more time. Exhaustion might affect his jump shot but not his drives, and again and again he drove to the basket. In the huddle, he barked at his teammates, "We are not going to lose this game!" Watching his great player, Phil Jackson saw all the telltale signs of fatigue, and he also saw a great player who simply refused to be defeated. Chuck Daly, who had coached against him for years and then coached him on the Dream Team, had once called him the bionic man because of a career of games like this, in which he became stronger when others around him, many of them younger, were unraveling. "Cut him open," Daly had warned, "and you won't find blood and muscle and sinew, you'll find nothing but wires and electrons and circuits."

Jackson knew all too well what Dick Harter was doing -- putting up a defense that punished Michael every time he went to the basket, not just to stop him but to wear him down and take his legs from him in the fourth quarter, and he understood that Jordan was willing to take the pounding in order to win. It was a small price. It was no longer about talent, it was solely about heart. Later, Jackson edited the videotape of the last six minutes of the game for a film clip to use for the Utah series, because he knew they would face some of the same problems of fatigue, and he wanted to show his team Jordan's willpower in action.

Four times in the final 7:28 of Game Seven an exhausted Jordan simply took the ball and drove right through the heaviest traffic in the lane, trying to draw the fouls. Each time he drove he got the call, and he ended up making five of seven free throws. It was one of his great games, spiritually if not artistically. After the Bulls managed to hold on and win by five points, 88-83, Jordan was like a little kid. He rushed off the court, not ebullient but almost giddy, like a schoolboy liberated from the last day of class

Playing For Keeps
David Halberstam, Pages 380-381



Could this be the end of the Bulls dynasty? I've always been wary of playing seventh games. Anything can happen, and it usually does. If we lost, it might also mean that this would be Michael's last game. Before the game I talked to the players about the prospect of defeat. We could lose this game, I said, but what's important is playing with the right kind of effort, and not being overtaken by the fear of losing. Michael understood that. To him losing was not an option. During a team huddle, he said, with a cold, determined look in his eye, "We are not going to lose this game."

Nothing came easy. Michael was struggling, hitting only 9 of 25 from the field. But when his jump shot wasn't working, he manufactured points by driving to the hoop in a crowd and drawing fouls. He ended up with 28 hard-won points, 10 of which came at the line. He also pulled down 9 rebounds and made 8 assists.

Michael's drive was contagious -- especially from the bench. Toni scored 21 points, Kerr had 11; and Jud Buechler grabbed 5 rebounds in eleven minutes. In fact, our work on the boards was the key to the game. We hit only 38.2 percent from the field that night, but we out-rebounded the Pacers 50-34, which gave us a lot of second opportunities to score. And Rodman, who was having an off night, contributed a mere six to the total.


Eleven Rings
Phil Jackson and Hugh Delehante, Page 195



Then, in that Game 7, we were at the United Center, and we had them down, we had a double-digit lead in that game and it looked like we would finally get past them. Jordan was not having a great game, nor was Pippen.

But despite that, what Michael did down the stretch; it was just one of the greatest performances I have ever seen. He just absolutely took the game over. It was the kind of thing you had seen before from him in other series in the past, but being there to watch it was different. There was no stopping him, not only scoring for himself, but he made a couple of kick-outs and Steve Kerr hit a couple big shots.

His defense, too...he was really focused and made some big, big plays. Ron Harper had started on Reggie Miller, but Reggie was having a big game, so Michael took him down the stretch at the end of the game. He took that challenge and made the plays when they mattered most. He really shut Reggie down in the second half of that game.

He did whatever it took to win, that was what stood out. That is what made him the best player in the game.

-- Fred Hoiberg


Facing Michael Jordan
Sean Deveney with Kent McDill, Page 137



With MJ, the devil is in the details not the box score. I'll take MJ's heart, intangibles, consistent effort, leadership and desire to win over a very good, sometimes dominant yet inconsistent Lebron.

[guy]

I agree, it's just these things are very hard to gauge... I fail to see any lack of effort or leadership in LeBron's game 6.

His game 5 was way different, though. I guess he kind of set himself up to see if his team could sustain a bad performance of his (ala Kobe game 7), and if he would lose, he could switch teams... Why would he go if they win the title? But he knew if he finds a team with an appropriate supporting cast, he won't be burned out as quickly.. thats just my theory. Ironically, the year he had it the easiest he lost because of... not sure he knows. Probably because it all got to him.

To the bolded: Isn't that kind of easy? Like, um, the stuff he did last year? Or in the previous round, even?

Hell, he beasted in the Celtics/Bulls series'.

Unless you think that irrelevant of what team, LeBron would always have that 2011 finals series.

Well, I feel he did. He wasn't playing with the same intensity and interaction with his teammates. In fact, I'm pretty sure there was a report around the time where he had barely talked with his teammates and coaches in between game 5 and 6. Much different then during the regular season where we'd sometimes see him dancing with his teammates on the bench. Its always made me wonder if the Delonte rumor was true, cause it makes a lot of sense, but I don't know.

If that was Lebron's reasoning for game 5, then that's just terrible. They were tied 2-2 until that point. And even if that's the case, they were only down 6 at the end of the first half with Lebron having a terrible game up until that point. For him to pull a stunt like that at that point, that's just more reason for me to say he wasn't better then second threepeat Jordan. And at least with Kobe, he gave up when they were getting blown out anyway.

I was exaggerating. Of course he's had historical games. My point was he wasn't more prone to having a historically bad performance just cause he had less help on his team. 2011 shows that. Same goes for his historically great performances. 2007 vs Pistons and 2012 vs Celtics were historically great, but his team was much better in 2012. He's odd in that sense. He has historically great games and historically bad games in both situations. He's somewhat hard to predict in that sense. That unpredictable nature of his where you don't necessarily know what kind of effort you're going to get from him when it matters most is one of the things makes me pause when ranking him ahead of certain players.

[guy]

Bron stans will never understand that.. giving up in a crucial game 5.. a swing game. Not even trying. It sets the tone for your teammates. He'd be better off going 7-21 or something at least play with passion and energy. That was the series he had that fake elbow injury and rondo torched the cavs.

In 2008 lebron shot like shit and had some epically bad games against the Celtics but he was visibly attacking and trying.. his team won multiple games with him shooting 30 something percent.. and took a better peak celtics team further than they took them in 2010

Completely agree. Not only was the 2008 Celtics > 2010 Celtics, but the 2010 Cavs > 2008 Cavs, the Cavs had HCA this time, and 2010 Lebron > 2008 Lebron (as far as ability goes, maybe not heart). Of course, playoff series don't necessarily work that way, but the bottom line is that wasn't an unwinnable series like people like to make it out to be.

I've always felt that the 2011 Heat may have been better off if Lebron had just gotten injured after game 1 of the Finals and didn't play the rest of the series. That way the Heat aren't completely off by the trance Lebron was in and knew what to expect from him. They could plan accordingly knowing Lebron wasn't going to be there, instead of guessing when Lebron was going to show up with his regular intensity and effort. I'm not sure I can say that about any other all-time great player in his class.

[guy]

+1

I'd take MJ's heart and intangibles over Lebron's dominant stats any day. Even in his bad games, you saw the effort.

Great post. And what's crazy is even with this being the case, you can still easily argue that Jordan is the most statistically dominant player of the modern era anyway. :oldlol:

[ArbitraryWater]

Okay, the 2008-2010 analogies... LeBron, as much as we talk about intangibles and leadership, played worse in 2008, so that already should show the 2010 Celtics played better (in the ESCF).

[dubeta]

If LeBron and Jordan faced each other head to head in the finals, LeBron would literally DOMINATE MJ, I mean Hakeem vs D Rob levels of domination

MJ wouldn't know what hit him, for the first time in his career, his head-to-head matchup would be taller than 6'3

[guy]

Okay, the 2008-2010 analogies... LeBron, as much as we talk about intangibles and leadership, played worse in 2008, so that already should show the 2010 Celtics played better (in the ESCF).

Well, this is kind of a chicken and egg situation. A big reason the Celtics played the Cavs better in 2010, if not the only reason, is cause Lebron played like a total bitch and his team as a result wasn't as cohesive. However, its pretty obvious though overall for the year, which version of the Celtics, Cavs, and Lebron were better between 2008 and 2010.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Lebron's games weren't just bad games. Everyone has bad games. Jordan has had bad games. Lebron has had games that were just "bad" games and nothing more. But there was clearly a lack of effort in that game 5, very much like his 2011 Finals, and game 6 while there was some effort, he clearly looked like he was just going through his motions and showed a complete lack of leadership (almost like he knew that was his last game with the Cavs.) Jordan's games weren't anything like that. Sure, the numbers might be equally bad, but the difference in effort and leadership matters because it sets the tone of the game and your team. If the leader of the team basically looks like he gave up, its pretty hard for the rest of the team not to give up as well. But if the leader of the team is just having a bad game yet still trying to do all he can to win, the rest of the team is most likely to still get behind you.

I don't really care if one superstar player is a little more productive then another if at the end of the season in the biggest games of all, he basically turns into another person and plays with much less effort and intensity. I'd much rather someone who is more consistent and is still one of the most dominant players of all-time anyway.

And by the way, production isn't everything. Its very doubtful 2010 Lebron makes the 96-98 Bulls as successful as Jordan did. He's way too ball dominant, and probably gets way more in the way of certain players like Pippen and Kukoc as a result. If they switched teams, I'd give Jordan a better chance of replicating or surpassing each team's success then Lebron.

And you asked to think of the historic stuff Lebron would've done with a better team that advances. Like who? The 2011 Heat?


Well, this is kind of a chicken and egg situation. A big reason the Celtics played the Cavs better in 2010, if not the only reason, is cause Lebron played like a total bitch and his team as a result wasn't as cohesive. However, its pretty obvious though overall for the year, which version of the Celtics, Cavs, and Lebron were better between 2008 and 2010.


http://citelighter-cards.s3.amazonaws.com/p16ob6vbtg1pe9kvl1vs318rcttd0_15960.jpg

[sportjames23]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

[Roundball_Rock]

^ Good post, crazy how MJ past his prime still had comparable/better seasons than Kobe and Lebron in their primes. He has to have the best non prime out of any great. You could argue he was a top 5 player in every full season from '85-'98. Insane.

KAJ. KAJ was first team all-NBA (over Hakeem and Ewing) and top 5 in MVP voting in his 17th season at age 38. KAJ was the best player for basically a decade, an elite player for 17 consecutive years, an all-star caliber player for 18 and a starter caliber player for 20. MJ had three great non-prime seasons (especially since he was the best player in 96', 97' and still top 2 behind Shaq in 98' despite his age)--very good but nothing compared to KAJ's longevity.

[OldSchoolBBall]

If LeBron and Jordan faced each other head to head in the finals, LeBron would literally DOMINATE MJ, I mean Hakeem vs D Rob levels of domination

MJ wouldn't know what hit him, for the first time in his career, his head-to-head matchup would be taller than 6'3

This is a joke, right? It would be more like the 1992 Finals where Jordan made Clyde his b!tch. The very notion of Lebron dominating Jordan is farcical.

[Young X]

KAJ. KAJ was first team all-NBA and top 5 in MVP voting in his 17th season at age 38. KAJ was the best player for basically a decade, an elite player for 17 consecutive years, an all-star caliber player for 18 and a starter caliber player for 20. MJ had three great non-prime seasons (especially since he was the best player in 96', 97' and still top 2 behind Shaq in 98' despite his age)--very good but nothing compared to KAJ's longevity.MJ won 3 FMVP's in his non prime - more than KAJ won in his whole career.

[ArbitraryWater]

http://citelighter-cards.s3.amazonaws.com/p16ob6vbtg1pe9kvl1vs318rcttd0_15960.jpg

I wasn't gonna reply, but nobody here really thinks he played better in '08 than '10, right?

[SamuraiSWISH]

This is a joke, right? It would be more like the 1992 Finals where Jordan made Clyde his b!tch. The very notion of Lebron dominating Jordan is farcical.
Exactly. He doesn't have the attack mentality consistently enough to hang in that mono y mano battle with Jordan.

We all know how MJ gets up for big games, or playing elite comtemporaries. He's not having his big games bullying bad teams, like some players ...

If MJ went at LeBron, James would probably beta up the second MJ blocks a jumper, rips his dribble, or drops him off on a move to the bucket, shakes him off the dribble, or hits a fadeaway in his grill. He'd especially go full 2013 ASG mode if someone of his abilities dunked on him. If he didn't want to compete with 2013 Kobe challenging him, what's he going to do with prime Jordan coming at his throat?

At least Kobe would be the type to try to go at Mike. I give him that much. I've always considered LeBron better than Kobe, but I respect Kobe's fearlessness, skill and aggression more.

[sportjames23]

This is a joke, right? It would be more like the 1992 Finals where Jordan made Clyde his b!tch. The very notion of Lebron dominating Jordan is farcical.


Seriously. MJ would've mentally destroyed Lebron in a series. He got geeked up for Clyde, and you see the results of that. With all the hype Bron got, MJ woulda been extra geeked to put him in his place.

If you think Duncan owns him, MJ woulda much worse.

[SamuraiSWISH]

I wasn't gonna reply, but nobody here really thinks he played better in '08 than '10, right?
2008 Celtics > 2010 Celtics (Defensively)
2008 Celtics > 2010 Celtics (Offensively)

2008 Celtics > 2010 Celtics (Overall)

2008 Cavs < 2010 Cavs

2008 LeBron < 2010 LeBron (Ability)
2008 LeBron > 2010 LeBron (Intangibles)

[Kvnzhangyay]

Seriously. MJ would've mentally destroyed Lebron in a series. He got geeked up for Clyde, and you see the results of that. With all the hype Bron got, MJ woulda been extra geeked to put him in his place.

If you think Duncan owns him, MJ woulda much worse.

Seriously means you only accept beliefs that are the same as your own, right?

[Roundball_Rock]

:oldlol: at MJ guarding LeBron. MJ was 6'6" 195; LeBron is 6'8" 240.

Regarding Drexler, he was playing on a bum knee. I know that is the one time MJ faced elite competition at SG in the playoffs and it was hyped by the press but it was not exactly a straight fight.

[SamuraiSWISH]

:oldlol: at MJ guarding LeBron. MJ was 6'6" 195; LeBron is 6'8" 240.
Jason Kidd is 6'4, and JJ Barea is 5'5? Boris Diaw is 300 lbs ... didn't stop them from putting LeBron in a straight jacket.

Or hell, 34 year old Kobe embarrassing him in a one on one situation defensively. Using MJ's advice how to guard him I might add. And Jordan's a better defender than Kobe. Much quicker, stronger, and leaping ability. Better anticipation skills as well.


Regarding Drexler, he was playing on a bum knee. I know that is the one time MJ faced elite competition at SG in the playoffs and it was hyped by the press but it was not exactly a straight fight.
So that's the reason Drexler got dominated? LOL this troll masquerading as a Bulls fan.

:roll: :roll: :roll:

[sportjames23]

Seriously means you only accept beliefs that are the same as your own, right?


Answer your own question.

Lebron is one of the most mentally weak superstars ever. What do you think a cutthroat like MJ would do to him if someone like Kwahi Leonard can embarrass him in the Finals?

[Roundball_Rock]

1) No, Jordan was simply superior to Drexler and he was, as the narrative correctly notes, on a mission in that series. Still, it was not a straight fight--and that is the best competition MJ ever faced at SG in the playoffs. :lol Has any other top 10 player had such weak competition at his position in the playoffs?

2) Jordan would not be assigned to LeBron.

[sdot_thadon]

:oldlol: at MJ guarding LeBron. MJ was 6'6" 195; LeBron is 6'8" 240.

Regarding Drexler, he was playing on a bum knee. I know that is the one time MJ faced elite competition at SG in the playoffs and it was hyped by the press but it was not exactly a straight fight.
Really depends on which Lebron we're talking here, 1st cavs stint Lebron would be a back and forth with Mj guarding him. 2011 Lebron might get locked up lol. 2012 on when he finally realized he weighed 260 or whatever it was, would manhandle Mj in the post.

[Roundball_Rock]

Pippen (Chicago's SF) or at least Grant or Rodman would be assigned to LeBron. Jordan would simply be giving up too much size by being 50-60 pounds lighter than LeBron.

[sdot_thadon]

Pippen (Chicago's SF) or at least Grant or Rodman would be assigned to LeBron. Jordan would simply be giving up too much size by being 50-60 pounds lighter than LeBron.
Right, just too small although it took lebron too long to realize and learn how to use his body in the post at least. He always used his size and strength driving to the bucket though.

[SamuraiSWISH]

LeBron still doesn't bully people in the post. And his abilities on the block still aren't even close to being fluid or reliable enough to be a lethal weapon. If they were, other superstars on his teams could maximize their offensive abilities with him playing off the ball more and not needing to dominate the ball on offense by dribbling at the top of the key / pick and roll every play to get his offensive momentum. He'd score, and conserve his body all at the same time.

[Kvnzhangyay]

Answer your own question.

Lebron is one of the most mentally weak superstars ever. What do you think a cutthroat like MJ would do to him if someone like Kwahi Leonard can embarrass him in the Finals?

Well your not going to accept any answer except one you believe is the same as your preconceived opinion, even though NO ONE can say what would actually happen

Prove me wrong?

[sportjames23]

LeBron still doesn't bully people in the post. And his abilities on the block still aren't even close to being fluid or reliable enough to be a lethal weapon. If they were, other superstars on his teams could maximize their offensive abilities with him playing off the ball more and not needing to dominate the ball on offense by dribbling at the top of the key / pick and roll every play to get his offensive momentum. He'd score, and conserve his body all at the same time.


It's funny how fools here say Lebron would use moves on MJ that he doesn't use on anyone today. :oldlol:

[G0ATbe]

http://oi60.tinypic.com/5lw0h0.jpg
Unless Jordan had performances like this, I'd have to choose MJ here.

[AirBourne92]

how is this a discussion?

jordan was a fierce beast.

he dominated at the rim and the mid range shot.

he generated more attention from the defense than lebron


he was an animal on defense.


lebron is a unique physical talent that plays within the offense and takes advantages of openings and whatnot, but jordan was able to capitalize on shots that were tough.


like hakeem said, jordan was superior to lebron

[JT123]

:oldlol: at MJ guarding LeBron. MJ was 6'6" 195; LeBron is 6'8" 240.

Regarding Drexler, he was playing on a bum knee. I know that is the one time MJ faced elite competition at SG in the playoffs and it was hyped by the press but it was not exactly a straight fight.
:applause: Guarding short white guys like Hornacek is not the same as guarding a 260 pound freight train like Lebron. Jordan couldn't even guard Magic, yet I'm supposed to believe that he could shut down Lebron? :whatever:
LOL at these silly Jordan mythologists.

[DatAsh]

Seriously. MJ would've mentally destroyed Lebron in a series. He got geeked up for Clyde, and you see the results of that. With all the hype Bron got, MJ woulda been extra geeked to put him in his place.

If you think Duncan owns him, MJ woulda much worse.

Lebron is a much better player than Clyde though.

[dubeta]

LOOL Jordan stans shook :oldlol:

[ImKobe]

2nd 3-peat MJ Playoffs > peak Bran playoffs

[Roundball_Rock]

:applause: Guarding short white guys like Hornacek is not the same as guarding a 260 pound freight train like Lebron. Jordan couldn't even guard Magic, yet I'm supposed to believe that he could shut down Lebron? :whatever:
LOL at these silly Jordan mythologists.

Why are we to assume MJ would even guard LeBron? It would either be Pippen or Grant/Rodman (if Pippen was put on Irving which would require the PF to take LeBron).

Regarding Magic, keep in mind Magic was LeBron's height but was 40-50 pounds smaller.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Regarding Magic, keep in mind Magic was LeBron's height but was 40-50 pounds smaller.
Was also a superior post player in general. James is all face up game.

[guy]

1) No, Jordan was simply superior to Drexler and he was, as the narrative correctly notes, on a mission in that series. Still, it was not a straight fight--and that is the best competition MJ ever faced at SG in the playoffs. :lol Has any other top 10 player had such weak competition at his position in the playoffs?

2) Jordan would not be assigned to LeBron.

:oldlol: Shut the **** up you clown. A lot of players have some type of injuries that deep in the season. As long as it doesn't really deter their production capabilities it doesn't matter. Clyde was putting up 27/7/8 on 49% in the first three rounds of those playoffs :oldlol: up from 25/7/7 on 47% during the regular season. Then in the Finals with Jordan primarily defending him, it went down to 25/8/5 on 41%. And is Clyde Drexler supposed to be weak competition? He's very arguably a top 5 SG of all-time and was in his prime.

As far as Jordan guarding Lebron goes, there have been way more players who physically based on athleticism/size were inferior to Jordan that were able to guard Lebron relatively effectively. So he could guard him to an extent. More then likely, no one individual defensive player can guard an offensive player as great as Lebron by himself, and that goes for other great offensive players like Jordan, Kobe, Bird, etc as well. The most likely thing that would throw Lebron off in a series vs Jordan is he'd probably scared shitless of the pressure of going up against Jordan. Jordan's trash talk doesn't even need to be mentioned. :oldlol:

[andgar923]

If Cp3 can lock up Bron Im sure MJ won't do a bad job.

[sdot_thadon]

LeBron still doesn't bully people in the post. And his abilities on the block still aren't even close to being fluid or reliable enough to be a lethal weapon. If they were, other superstars on his teams could maximize their offensive abilities with him playing off the ball more and not needing to dominate the ball on offense by dribbling at the top of the key / pick and roll every play to get his offensive momentum. He'd score, and conserve his body all at the same time.
I don't think the moves are as important as the mentality honestly. 2012 and 2013 he had a mentality to punish smaller defenders, maybe not every single play but more often than not. 2014 he seemed to go away from it and moved further out offensively but I figure it was purely out of comfort that he could score in any situation that year. Mj would be too small for that version of lebron as there were plenty of guys at his position he just took down low and beat them with ugly power moves lol. As I said any other version is fair game....

[NBAplayoffs2001]

http://oi60.tinypic.com/5lw0h0.jpg
Unless Jordan had performances like this, I'd have to choose MJ here.

Knicks have held Jordan to 10 pts before :confusedshrug:

[Roundball_Rock]

Clyde was putting up 27/7/8 on 49% in the first three rounds of those playoffs up from 25/7/7 on 47% during the regular season. Then in the Finals with Jordan primarily defending him, it went down to 25/8/5 on 41%. And is Clyde Drexler supposed to be weak competition? He's very arguably a top 5 SG of all-time and was in his prime.

Yeah--and? Why did you stop there? What happened to the rest of the story? The following year Drexler went from 25/7/7 on 47% to 20/6/6 on 43%. He went from runner-up MVP and first team all-NBA to not even making a 3rd all-NBA team. His peak season was 92'--but thanks to that injury that also happened to be his final prime season. Drexler in the Finals was on his last legs as a dominant player.

Of course Drexler was elite competition. That was noted--and happened to be the only series in which MJ faced an elite counterpart at SG.

[juju151111]

Yeah--and? Why did you stop there? What happened to the rest of the story? The following year Drexler went from 25/7/7 on 47% to 20/6/6 on 43%. He went from runner-up MVP and first team all-NBA to not even making a 3rd all-NBA team. His peak season was 92'--but thanks to that injury that also happened to be his final prime season. Drexler in the Finals was on his last legs as a dominant player.

Of course Drexler was elite competition. That was noted--and happened to be the only series in which MJ faced an elite counterpart at SG.
Knapp stop your BS he got injured the next season. Mj played with a bum ankle in 91. Everybody is banged up at that point. Clyde had hamstring injury and other injuries in 93. Stop your vs downplaying dumb****. No shut Clyde ads down and No was the best defender on the Bulls.

[juju151111]

Yeah--and? Why did you stop there? What happened to the rest of the story? The following year Drexler went from 25/7/7 on 47% to 20/6/6 on 43%. He went from runner-up MVP and first team all-NBA to not even making a 3rd all-NBA team. His peak season was 92'--but thanks to that injury that also happened to be his final prime season. Drexler in the Finals was on his last legs as a dominant player.

Of course Drexler was elite competition. That was noted--and happened to be the only series in which MJ faced an elite counterpart at SG.
He faced Magic Johnson and guarded him 75% of the series.

[Roundball_Rock]

Drexler had surgery during the offseason if I recall correctly--and he was never the same.

[guy]

Yeah--and? Why did you stop there? What happened to the rest of the story? The following year Drexler went from 25/7/7 on 47% to 20/6/6 on 43%. He went from runner-up MVP and first team all-NBA to not even making a 3rd all-NBA team. His peak season was 92'--but thanks to that injury that also happened to be his final prime season. Drexler in the Finals was on his last legs as a dominant player.

Of course Drexler was elite competition. That was noted--and happened to be the only series in which MJ faced an elite counterpart at SG.

Umm why did I stop there? Umm i don't know cause the next year was pretty much irrelevant to the time period I was talking about. :hammerhead: he was still playing at an elite level up that season. He had surgery in the offseason and declined from there. That has nothing to do with the 92 finals.

I don't know, maybe I wasn't following. You said Jordan had weak competition at his position and cited Drexler, one of the greatest SGs, ever as evidence. Huh? And not that many all-time great players has faced that many "elite" players at their position in the playoffs. It's usually like 1 or 2. Lebron faced Durant, that's it (if you're not counting Reggie or Dumars, then you shouldn't count Melo or Pierce), Kobe faced AI, Duncan faced KG and Dirk, Magic faced Isiah, Bird faced Nique and King, etc. It's usually only the centers that have faced a lot of "elite" centers and that dwindled over the years i.e. Ewing, Robinson, Shaq only faced elite centers once and it was Hakeem for each of them.

Nice try. Keep wasting all your time trying to tear down the by far greatest player of your supposed favorite team. :oldlol:

[Young X]

Umm why did I stop there? Umm i don't know cause the next year was pretty much irrelevant to the time period I was talking about. :hammerhead: he was still playing at an elite level up that season. He had surgery in the offseason and declined from there. That has nothing to do with the 92 finals.

I don't know, maybe I wasn't following. You said Jordan had weak competition at his position and cited Drexler, one of the greatest SGs, ever as evidence. Huh? And not that many all-time great players has faced that many "elite" players at their position in the playoffs. It's usually like 1 or 2. Lebron faced Durant, that's it (if you're not counting Reggie or Dumars, then you shouldn't count Melo or Pierce), Kobe faced AI, Duncan faced KG and Dirk, Magic faced Isiah, Bird faced Nique and King, etc. It's usually only the centers that have faced a lot of "elite" centers and that dwindled over the years i.e. Ewing, Robinson, Shaq only faced elite centers once and it was Hakeem for each of them.

Nice try. Keep wasting all your time trying to tear down the by far greatest player of your supposed favorite team. :oldlol:Good post. :applause:

[Roundball_Rock]

So you cited Drexler as elite competition at SG after I cited Drexler as (the one example of) elite competition at SG?

:biggums:

Wilt, Russell, KAJ--especially KAJ--faced numerous legends at their positions.

[guy]

So you cited Drexler as elite competition at SG after I cited Drexler as (the one example of) elite competition at SG?

:biggums:

Wilt, Russell, KAJ--especially KAJ--faced numerous legends at their positions.

Like I said, centers did, and that's mostly an old school thing cause there was much less teams making it more likely that they were going to face each other. Not that many players from the last 30 years have faced so much elite competition at their position.

If that's the one example, who cares? Like i said most have only one or two. Either way, facing more elite competition at your position doesn't necessarily signify difficulty. For example, Duncan did face KG once in the playoffs. And that means what exactly? KG was on a shitty 8th seeded team he had to carry to the playoffs.

[juju151111]

So you cited Drexler as elite competition at SG after I cited Drexler as (the one example of) elite competition at SG?

:biggums:

Wilt, Russell, KAJ--especially KAJ--faced numerous legends at their positions.
Mj faced Magic Johnson who was a guard.

[eliteballer]

Jordan wouldn't be on LeBron, he'd be on Wade.

Even if he was if....

35 year old Bruce Bowen
37 year old Jason Kidd
23 year old Jimmy Butler

Can force LeBron into having some of the worst(if not the worst) series of his career I'm sure Jordan could handle him.

[andgar923]

Some touched upon it, but i'll elaborate on it more...

Bron is bigger, but even when he posts up he's not a bull inside.

He doesn't have an aggressive back to the basket game like Drexler, Magic, Nique or others. He tends to shoot too many step backs and fadeaway jumpers while in the post. Watch Clyde play and you'd see him just barrel himself in the paint. Clyde puts his head down and uses his body as a shield, so does Magic and most players Mj faced in the post. After using their body to back down the defender they use it to shield them from a block.

But something that some people are missing completely is the offensive player even touching the ball. Bron stands in the corner for most of the offensive possessions which makes him easier to deny. It's actually harder to guard somebody like Hornaceck (in a way) since he's running around the court going through screens catching the ball in different spots in which he's a threat from almost anywhere. Bron on the other hand, stands on the perimeter for the most part, catches the ball on a kick back so it makes it easier to deny him the ball. He also doesn't fight to get the ball in the post as much as other players, he simply has a shitty off the ball game.

I honestly think guarding Drexler, Nique and others present a bigger challenge to MJ (and most players in general) than defending LBJ.

So the notion that Bron would own any Bulls defender is silly. Not that Bron would get shut down, but:

A. His touches would be limited since his off the ball game is weak
B. When he did touch the ball, it will result in a pass more than a shot
C. Lanes would be more packed so it'll restrict his attack to the rim
D. Hand checking would limit his drives even more, forcing him for more step backs and long distance shots.
E. He's not a bull inside the paint, so squash that "Bron is bigger and stronger" nonsense because he doesn't use it to his advantage in the paint.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Knicks have held Jordan to 10 pts before :confusedshrug:

Jordan's career low in the playoffs is 15 points, so no.

[OldSchoolBBall]

:oldlol: at MJ guarding LeBron. MJ was 6'6" 195; LeBron is 6'8" 240.

Regarding Drexler, he was playing on a bum knee. I know that is the one time MJ faced elite competition at SG in the playoffs and it was hyped by the press but it was not exactly a straight fight.

**** outta here with this noise. This was literally NEVER mentioned during ANY of the broadcasts of the 1992 Finals. Bum knee my ass. Didn't look too bad when Drex was catching alley-oops on the break that series.

[97 bulls]

Wasnt Jordan like 220 during the second threepeat?

Anyway, its Jordan. Or at least id take Jordan. We need to understand the difference between what a player can't do, and what he doesn't have to do.

And I've always maintained that James defense is overrated. Its a lot easier to just lay off a guy and dare him to shoot as opposed to actually getting in a players chest and locking him up. That why Jason Terry ate James alive.

[GimmeThat]

it's kinda funny how no matter what happens, from now on if the Heat organization makes it into the finals again, Bron's legacy will be brought up to be measured upon.


"we have to play an away game @ the Miami Heat to start the series!"

[OldSchoolBBall]

Yeah--and? Why did you stop there? What happened to the rest of the story? The following year Drexler went from 25/7/7 on 47% to 20/6/6 on 43%. He went from runner-up MVP and first team all-NBA to not even making a 3rd all-NBA team. His peak season was 92'--but thanks to that injury that also happened to be his final prime season. Drexler in the Finals was on his last legs as a dominant player.


What the FVCK are you talking about already? Provide some substantiation for this "injury" bullsh!t to Drexler, or shut the fvck up. This was not mentioned in ANY of the 1992 Finals broadcasts, and Drexler was clearly playing free and loose athletically the entire series - not hobbled at all. His injury happened the FOLLOWING season.

[Da_Realist]

Updated my post. Added Fred Hoiberg's comments about Game 7 1998 ECF Bulls vs Pacers

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11051561&postcount=83