Being a Point Forward is the most skill intensive position

[Mr.Kite]

aside from bron, the only other player to do that was pippen.

and bron is 5x the player pippen is

[navy]

Point center

[lilteapot]

Point guard

[imdaman99]

Grant Hill? Confirmed 12 year old like the rest of the branstans. Don't act like you saw Pippen play :lol

[bizil]

In terms of perimeter players, the guys who can play PG, SG, and SF are crazy versatile. Historically, this would include guys like Pippen, Magic, Bron, G Hill, MJ, Kobe, T Mac, and Penny. For players in the 60's, I think u could make a case for Big O and Hondo too. So these kind of players are very unique and rare. The interesting thing is that they're primary positions may be different, BUT they are similar in terms of size and versatility.

Because of Bron's size, he's take the point forward shit to epic heights. He can play or defend four positions, is a freakish athlete, looks to pass first, and can also win a scoring title. He pretty much took the things Magic and Pippen did and combined it in the body of Karl Malone.

[Mr.Kite]

In terms of perimeter players, the guys who can play PG, SG, and SF are crazy versatile. Historically, this would include guys like Pippen, Magic, Bron, G Hill, MJ, Kobe, T Mac, and Penny. For players in the 60's, I think u could make a case for Big O and Hondo too. So these kind of players are very unique and rare. The interesting thing is that they're primary positions may be different, BUT they are similar in terms of size and versatility.

Because of Bron's size, he's take the point forward shit to epic heights. He can play or defend four positions, is a freakish athlete, looks to pass first, and can also win a scoring title. He pretty much took the things Magic and Pippen did and combined it in the body of Karl Malone.
:applause: :applause: :bowdown:

[CavaliersFTW]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjNS_oYE92E

...And before him Maurice Stokes.

[Budadiiii]

In terms of perimeter players, the guys who can play PG, SG, and SF are crazy versatile. Historically, this would include guys like Pippen, Magic, Bron, G Hill, MJ, Kobe, T Mac, and Penny. For players in the 60's, I think u could make a case for Big O and Hondo too. So these kind of players are very unique and rare. The interesting thing is that they're primary positions may be different, BUT they are similar in terms of size and versatility.

Because of Bron's size, he's take the point forward shit to epic heights. He can play or defend four positions, is a freakish athlete, looks to pass first, and can also win a scoring title. He pretty much took the things Magic and Pippen did and combined it in the body of Karl Malone.
Do you even watch Durant? He's easily the best point forward ever. His ability to shoot and drive mixed with his insane height/length/athleticism combo and his elite play-making skills make him easily the best. Bron can't shoot.

Durant is 7 feet, has the ball handling abilities of a guard, the shooting abilities of prime Dirk, and elite play-making skills. Plus he's incredibly athletic and can beat you off the dribble or pull up from anywhere and knock down a shot. Scary player.

Did you watch last year when Westbrook was out? Durant was the PG and he led them in a way no other guy in history is capable.

[24-Inch_Chrome]

Do you even watch Durant? He's easily the best point forward ever. His ability to shoot and drive mixed with his insane height/length/athleticism combo and his elite play-making skills make him easily the best. Bron can't shoot.

Did you watch last year when Westbrook was out? Durant was the PG and he led them in a way no other guy in history is capable.

LeBron James career FG%: .496
Kevin Durant career FG%: .481

"Bron can't shoot"

[Budadiiii]

LeBron James career FG%: .496
Kevin Durant career FG%: .481

"Bron can't shoot"
:facepalm

First of all, LeBron is a cherry pick player. He only shoots when he's open and gets a lot of fast break points.

Durant has always put a lot more pressure on a defense and is forced to take ill advised shots A LOT to bail out Scott Brooks ISO offense.

Last year the offense was give Durant the ball and let him do whatever. And he did, they won a ton of games, and he snatched the MVP.

LeBron CAN'T shoot.... he doesn't put the same pressure on a D when he's 30 feet away from the basket like Durant does.

[dreamwarrior]

Durant plays the point better than Bron. With the superior athletic gene pool today, I expect most players to be able to play 2 positions. Look at the Centers of today. 90% of them can play PF.

[24-Inch_Chrome]

:facepalm

First of all, LeBron is a cherry pick player. He only shoots when he's open and gets a lot of fast break points.

Durant has always put a lot more pressure on a defense and is forced to take ill advised shots A LOT to bail out Scott Brooks ISO offense.

Last year the offense was give Durant the ball and let him do whatever. And he did, they won a ton of games, and he snatched the MVP.

LeBron CAN'T shoot.... he doesn't put the same pressure on a D when he's 30 feet away from the basket like Durant does.

This is reminding me of that idiot who tried arguing Kobe > LeBron because Kobe took dumb/difficult shots instead of passing/looking for better shots.

My only point was that LeBron can shoot, much as you'd like to believe the opposite.

[qrich]

LeBron James career FG%: .496
Kevin Durant career FG%: .481

"Bron can't shoot"

Bron career:
10-16 Feet: 36%
16 Feet - Arc: 40.3%

Durant:
10-16 Feet: 53.5%
16 Feet - Arc: 40%

:eek:

[bizil]

Do you even watch Durant? He's easily the best point forward ever. His ability to shoot and drive mixed with his insane height/length/athleticism combo and his elite play-making skills make him easily the best. Bron can't shoot.

Durant is 7 feet, has the ball handling abilities of a guard, the shooting abilities of prime Dirk, and elite play-making skills. Plus he's incredibly athletic and can beat you off the dribble or pull up from anywhere and knock down a shot. Scary player.

Did you watch last year when Westbrook was out? Durant was the PG and he led them in a way no other guy in history is capable.

Pump your brakes! Just because I don't mention a player doesn't mean I'm not aware of them or their abilities. For starters, Durant is a score first player. He's a very good passer but he's not a GREAT PASSER! He's nowhere close to the level of Bird, Pippen, or Bron passing the rock from the SF position. Those guys could pass as well as most point guards let alone forwards.

Durant's ball handling ability is off the chain for a 7 footer. But that doesn't mean he is a point forward kind of player. Is Durant capable of playing as point forward. SURE! But is he great at it? NO! The best point forwards are pass first kind of players and are basically oversized point guards. Magic was the one who was moved to PG flat out. Guys like Bron, Pippen, and Hill played PG too, but mostly they stayed in SF-point forward capacity.

Once again Durant is capable of playing as a point forward, but that ISN'T what he does best. Or is great at. His shit is putting that damn ball in the hole and being the best scorer in the world. Who just HAPPPENS to have great handles for his size. And is a very good passer. But that doesn't mean he's on Bron's level as a point forward. Bron is a natural point forward.

[Budadiiii]

This is reminding me of that idiot who tried arguing Kobe > LeBron because Kobe took dumb/difficult shots instead of passing/looking for better shots.

My only point was that LeBron can shoot, much as you'd like to believe the opposite.
We're talking about outside shooting and how it affects a defense. Not FG%.

LeBron isn't close to being the same threat on the perimeter that Durant is. LeBron has games where he can get hot from outside but the consistency has never been there.

People don't even pay attention to Durant and just assume he's a one dimensional offensive players. His play-making has improved significantly since he's entered the league. He's now the best pure passer on OKC... yes, better than Westbrook.

He's never been surrounded with great 3pt. shooting or competent big men so the assist numbers may not indicate how great of a play maker he is.

[CavaliersFTW]

Durant plays the point better than Bron. With the superior athletic gene pool today, I expect most players to be able to play 2 positions. Look at the Centers of today. 90% of them can play PF.
One of the trademarks that seperates today's game from past era's is the increased number of specialists in today's game and a relative decrease in multi-position or "positionless" players. Whether it be due to the size of the league and it's inability to find enough multi-dimensional talent to really fill up a roster or perhaps due to rules that have given role players a place in today's game, I've also heard it suggested that developing young talent coaches today pigeon hole young players today more "you're a shooter" "you're a great defensive player" etc and the kids just pigeon hole their focus and grow up into one dimensional specialists. No matter what the cause is, the trend is the exact opposite of what you seem to believe it is.

Heck, in the 50's-70's there wasn't even any such thing as point guard, shooting guard, small forward, or power forward...

Listen to Richie Guerin react to a radio host calling him a "point guard":
http://youtu.be/q9jcsbdzyEg?t=2m32s

There were guards and forwards. And even then there were players that swung between both. Centers that didn't bang in the paint made a living stretching the floor as long as the game has been played too, versatility is nothing new, if anything it's the old way to play.

But gene pool. Okay.

[Budadiiii]

Pump your brakes! Just because I don't mention a player doesn't mean I'm not aware of them or their abilities. For starters, Durant is a score first player. He's a very good passer but he's not a GREAT PASSER! He's nowhere close to the level of Bird, Pippen, or Bron passing the rock from the SF position. Those guys could pass as well as most point guards let alone forwards.

Durant's ball handling ability is off the chain for a 7 footer. But that doesn't mean he is a point forward kind of player. Is Durant capable of playing as point forward. SURE! But is he great at it? NO! The best point forwards are pass first kind of players and are basically oversized point guards. Magic was the one who was moved to PG flat out. Guys like Bron, Pippen, and Hill played PG too, but mostly they stayed in SF-point forward capacity.

Once again Durant is capable of playing as a point forward, but that ISN'T what he does best. Or is great at. His shit putting that damn ball in the hole and being the best scorer in the world. Who just HAPPPENS to have great handles for his size. And is a very good passer. But that doesn't mean he's on Bron's level as a point forward. Bron is a natural point forward.
I rather have the ball in Durant's hands all game than Bron's. Why are the best point forwards the ones who are basically oversized PG's? Why does that make them better?

[bizil]

I rather have the ball in Durant's hands all game than Bron's. Why are the best point forwards the ones who are basically oversized PG's? Why does that make them better?

Durant is a better scorer than Lebron. And KD is one of the greatest shooters of all time. So if u prefer to have the ball in his hands more than Bron then fine. However, I prefer Bron as a point forward over KD because Lebron is a better passer. And has a pass first kind of instinct. Historically speaking, point forwards like Hill and Pippen were similar to that.

If Bron and KD somehow ended up on the same team, GUESS WHO would be the point forward. It would be Lebron! And every sports analyst in the world would tell u that. HELL, KD would tell u that himself.

Jordan was a better player than Magic BUT i would rather have Magic as my PG over Jordan. Some guys are great passers who are also great scorers. Other guys are great scorers who are also great passers. There is a difference between the two. For my point forward or point guard, I would prefer to have guys like Magic and Bron over guys like Durant.

[bizil]

One of the trademarks that seperates today's game from past era's is the increased number of specialists in today's game and a relative decrease in multi-position or "positionless" players. Whether it be due to the size of the league and it's inability to find enough multi-dimensional talent to really fill up a roster or perhaps due to rules that have given role players a place in today's game, I've also heard it suggested that developing young talent coaches today pigeon hole young players today more "you're a shooter" "you're a great defensive player" etc and the kids just pigeon hole their focus and grow up into one dimensional specialists. No matter what the cause is, the trend is the exact opposite of what you seem to believe it is.

Heck, in the 50's-70's there wasn't even any such thing as point guard, shooting guard, small forward, or power forward...

Listen to Richie Guerin react to a radio host calling him a "point guard":
http://youtu.be/q9jcsbdzyEg?t=2m32s

There were guards and forwards. And even then there were players that swung between both. Centers that didn't bang in the paint made a living stretching the floor as long as the game has been played too, versatility is nothing new, if anything it's the old way to play.

But gene pool. Okay.


Well said! I agree that there has always been versatility. The main difference is the size that comes with that versatility. As they say, players get bigger, stronger, and faster. Many say Jerry Lucas was the first great stretch PF. Then years later McAdoo comes in at 6'10 with an actual swingman's skillset. Then from there Dirk comes in at 7'0. So it's simply evolution.

At least among guards, West and Big O were SO AHEAD of their time! The great guards in the 70's (other than a Frazier or Bing) weren't great all around players. Guys like Pearl, Pistol Pete, Gervin, Thompson, Tiny, etc. were awesome offensive players. But they weren't as well rounded as Big O or West.

That's the reason why it took Magic and MJ to FINALLY unseat West and Big O as the all time backcourt. West and Big O were so far ahead of their time, it took guys in the 80's to top what they did.

[bizil]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjNS_oYE92E

...And before him Maurice Stokes.

Yep Stokes was a beast and ahead of his time! It's a tragedy what happened to him.

[CavaliersFTW]

Well said! I agree that there has always been versatility. The main difference is the size that comes with that versatility. As they say, players get bigger, stronger, and faster. Many say Jerry Lucas was the first great stretch PF. Then years later McAdoo comes in at 6'10 with an actual swingman's skillset. Then from there Dirk comes in at 7'0. So it's simply evolution.

At least among guards, West and Big O were SO AHEAD of their time! The great guards in the 70's (other than a Frazier or Bing) weren't great all around players. Guys like Pearl, Pistol Pete, Gervin, Thompson, Tiny, etc. were awesome offensive players. But they weren't as well rounded as Big O or West.

That's the reason why it took Magic and MJ to FINALLY unseat West and Big O as the all time backcourt. West and Big O were so far ahead of their time, it took guys in the 80's to top what they did.
It's not really that simple though "Jerry Lucas, to McAdoo, to Nowitzki therefore evolution"

Jerry Lucas is 6-7.5... same height as Kevin Love, a modern guy doing the same job. Bob Pettit came before him 6-8 and 1/4, even taller than Love. Although not a super star Mel Counts was a guy listed 7 feet tall even back in the sixties (meaning he might likely have been that height or nearly so without shoes), he was a center sized big man with a pure stroke at least as tall as Dirk (who I've heard might be more like 6-10 without shoes) that due to his shooting touch and lithe frame played forward. Where's the evolution there? From what I can see bigs that shoot or try to play smaller is nothing new. It only appears that way when when highly marketable superstars come along and draw peoples attention to their approach to the game. Their approach however, and size etc is generally nothing totally new or revolutionary nor an example of linear progression "he's just like X player only bigger/faster/stronger".

Mel Counts was every bit as big as Dirk, playing the forward spot with a pure stroke. But people don't recall Mel Counts back then because he wasn't making the impact of guys like Wilt, Russell, or Jabbar. So people pigeon hole the Wilt era as an era of strictly inside bigs that didn't stretch and shoot but that's not even close to true as only a few centers could play the Wilt-Russell-Jabbar type of game back then (Bellamy). Most had to compensate by stretching the floor and face the basket quite a lot because playing the way Wilt played, or Jabbar, or Russell was futile without their minds and physical tools.

Just my own 2 cents from watching film

[bizil]

It's not really that simple though "Jerry Lucas, to McAdoo, to Nowitzki therefore evolution"

Jerry Lucas is 6-7.5... same height as Kevin Love, a modern guy doing the same job. Bob Pettit came before him 6-8 and 1/4, even taller than Love. Although not a super star Mel Counts was a guy listed 7 feet tall even back in the sixties (meaning he might likely have been that height or nearly so without shoes), he was a center sized big man with a pure stroke at least as tall as Dirk (who I've heard might be more like 6-10 without shoes) that due to his shooting touch and lithe frame played forward. Where's the evolution there? From what I can see bigs that shoot or try to play smaller is nothing new. It only appears that way when when highly marketable superstars come along and draw peoples attention to their approach to the game. Their approach however, and size etc is generally nothing totally new or revolutionary nor an example of linear progression "he's just like X player only bigger/faster/stronger".

Mel Counts was every bit as big as Dirk, playing the forward spot with a pure stroke. But people don't recall Mel Counts back then because he wasn't making the impact of guys like Wilt, Russell, or Jabbar. So people pigeon hole the Wilt era as an era of strictly inside bigs that didn't stretch and shoot but that's not even close to true as only a few centers could play the Wilt-Russell-Jabbar type of game back then (Bellamy). Most had to compensate by stretching the floor and face the basket quite a lot because playing the way Wilt played, or Jabbar, or Russell was futile without their minds and physical tools.

Just my own 2 cents from watching film


U are over analyzing what I'm saying big time!! LMAO! My point was the game DOES EVOLVE over time! But yet players from back in the day were still very versatile themselves. And in many ways were ahead of their time. I mean DAMN!! U are taking yourself too seriously! ESPECIALLY when the basis of my remarks CAME FROM EXPERTS OF THE GAME!!

People in the NBA fraternity compared Love to Jerry Lucas. Or Bob Mac to Dirk. All four of them are stretch kind of PF's. BUT DIFFERENT kinds of stretch PF's. Lucas and Love are more similar. While Dirk and Mac are more similar.

And I don't care WHAT U SAY, there wasn't a 7 footer like Dirk in the 1960s. I'm only in my 30's, but I would venture to say their wasn't a 7 footer like a Dirk. In terms of height, u are over analyzing shit too. Listed heights are what they are. We could ALL look back say what a guy is with or without shoes. It's too time consuming a process to do that. The three point line was non existent in the 60's EVEN THOUGH some guys had that range.

Once the rule was enacted, of course it made it WAY MORE OF A WEAPON because it's an extra point. Players taking advantage of that and even DOMINATING A GAME using it as a great pure shooter IS CLEAR EVOLUTION!! Can't be debated and ANY EXPERT will tell u that!

[CavaliersFTW]

U are over analyzing what I'm saying big time!! LMAO! My point was the game DOES EVOLVE over time! But yet players from back in the day were still very versatile themselves. And in many ways were ahead of their time. I mean DAMN!! U are taking yourself too seriously! ESPECIALLY when the basis of my remarks CAME FROM EXPERTS OF THE GAME!!

People in the NBA fraternity compared Love to Jerry Lucas. Or Bob Mac to Dirk. All four of them are strecth kind of PF's. BUT DIFFERENT kinds of stretch PF's. Lucas and Love are more similar. While Dirk and Mac are more similar.
There's nothing funny about what I posted, I just gave my two cents. I don't think I'm over analyzing anything. I'm just sharing my opinion, and my passion for the games history.

[Pointguard]

In terms of perimeter players, the guys who can play PG, SG, and SF are crazy versatile. Historically, this would include guys like Pippen, Magic, Bron, G Hill, MJ, Kobe, T Mac, and Penny. For players in the 60's, I think u could make a case for Big O and Hondo too. So these kind of players are very unique and rare. The interesting thing is that they're primary positions may be different, BUT they are similar in terms of size and versatility.

Because of Bron's size, he's take the point forward shit to epic heights. He can play or defend four positions, is a freakish athlete, looks to pass first, and can also win a scoring title. He pretty much took the things Magic and Pippen did and combined it in the body of Karl Malone.
Great list!!!

Oscar could rebound better than most SFs, could post better than most SF's, and had more SF skills than most great SF's, and scored more than the SF's of his time, but he was always considered a PG. But he definitely functioned in both positions throughout his great prime. Most people look at the position as SF size with PG skills rather than a player excelling at both functions on the floor. Oscar's does subscribe to being a point forward. Hondo is more of a SF with PG function despite Oscar being a noticeably better at SF functions of rebounder and scorer while they were contemporaries.

In the modern era... Paul Pressey, was the first, he was moreso a set up player but he had a complete game, defensively too.

[bizil]

There's nothing funny about what I posted, I just gave my two cents. I don't think I'm over analyzing anything. I'm just sharing my opinion, and my passion for the games history.

I not laughing at your knowledge of the game! It's clear that u are very knowledgeable. But I gotta admit, u over analyzed my original point. I agreed with your initial post about how players were very versatile back in the 60's. And that some of them were VERY AHEAD of their time.

U bring up Counts vs. Dirk. Which isn't a proper comparison because Dirk was a GREAT PLAYER!! Dirk was a dominant pure shooter who was a true alpha dog. For Dirk to be 7 foot and have the scoring skillset he had was REVOLUTIONARY!! U had guys like McAdoo and Chambers before, but Dirk used the threeball as a weapon in a manner they never did. Plus he was bigger too.

[bizil]

Great list!!!

Oscar could rebound better than most SFs, could post better than most SF's, and had more SF skills than most great SF's, and scored more than the SF's of his time, but he was always considered a PG. But he definitely functioned in both positions throughout his great prime. Most people look at the position as SF size with PG skills rather than a player excelling at both functions on the floor. Oscar's does subscribe to being a point forward. Hondo is more of a SF with PG function despite Oscar being a noticeably better at SF functions of rebounder and scorer while they were contemporaries.

In the modern era... Paul Pressey, was the first, he was moreso a set up player but he had a complete game, defensively too.

Yep I agree! Paul Pressey was also one of those guys who could play PG, SG, and SF. He for sure functioned as a point forward often and was an awesome two way player.

While West, Baylor, and Barry were awesome with their versatility back in the day, I think Big O and Hondo were the two who put that PG-SG-SF versatility on the map. Big O and Hondo did it differently from each other as u stated, but they were the first two great ones that exploited that kind of versatility.