Westbrook's dominance proves how easily MJ would be the best player today

[3ball]

Illegal Defense Rules


2a. Weak side defenders may come in the pro lane (16’), but not in the college lane (12’) for more than three seconds.



As the bolded red shows, previous era defenders could could remain INDEFINITELY in the "pro" lane, or the outer partition of the paint - today's defenders can't do that - they have a max of 3 seconds.

And for the inner part of the paint (college lane), weakside defenders can stay for up to 3 seconds, just like today's defenders.





2b. Defender on post player is allowed in defensive three-second area (A post player is any player adjacent to paint area).

2b. When a defensive player is guarding an offensive player who is adjacent (posted-up) to the 3-second lane, the defensive player may be within the "inside lane" area with no time limitations. An offensive player shall be ruled as "postedup" when he is within 3' of the free throw lane line. A hash mark on the baseline denotes the 3' area.


Rule 2b is a legal paint-camping provision.

As you can see, defenders were allowed to stay in the paint "with no time limitation" if their man was in the paint already, or "adjacent" to the paint - "adjacent" is defined as when the offensive player is within 3 feet of either side of the paint, as denoted by hash marks on the baseline.. The hash marks are the only thing refs had to eyeball if an offensive player was "adjacent"/within 3 feet, or further than 3 feet/in violation, which is why defenders often camped in the paint while their man was all the way at the 3-point line (no enforcement).

The criteria needed to paint-camp (a defender's man being in the paint or within 3 feet of either side) was always fulfilled in previous eras due to the lack of 3-point shooting and spacing - coaches foolishly ran offenses that didn't shoot threes and positioned players close to the rim, which activated this legal-paint camping provision of Rule 2b.. The full Illegal Defense Guidelines from the NBA rule book are here (http://nbahoopsonline.com/History/Leagues/NBA/Rules/Fouls.html), also shown at realgm here (http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=28840140&sid=f37d422abcb4fb3198dba014bc15f361#p28840140).





2c. Player without ball may not be double-teamed from weak side.


Rule 2c is essentially the same thing as today's flooding - but flooding isn't an advantage for today's game - it's a substitute.. Today's 3-pointers/spacing and the resulting further distance of help defenders makes offensive players more dangerous when they catch the ball, which necessitates extra tactics so the ballhandler isn't as secluded by the spacing - but the flooding tactic merely makes the concentration of defenders equivalent to an un-spaced court where help defenders were already in closer proximity.

Lack of spacing and closer proximity of help defenders made previous eras better-equipped to handle a player that has the ball without needing risky gambles like flooding, where big men come away from the rim to flood in a mismatch outside the paint.. Instead, the lack of 3-point shooting kept offensive players closer to the paint, which allowed defenders to paint-camp when their man was in the paint or within 3 feet of either side (see Rule 2b above).. Paint-camping is a more equitable way to defend the entire court, without necessitating the extra rotations and leaving guys wide open that flooding requires.





2d. Offensive player above foul line and inside circle must be played by defender inside dotted line (upper part of the paint).


This allows defenders to stand in the upper part of the paint above the dotted line INDEFNITELY when their man is at college 3-point distance (the tip of the circle).

Otoh, today's defenders can NEVER stay in the paint for longer than 3 seconds unless they're within "armslength".. But being on the dotted line in the paint is way out of armslength of the college 3-point line (tip of circle).

By virtue of being able to stay in the paint indefinitely, previous era defenders have more flexibility in this spot (when a defender's man is at the top of the circle).





2e. If offensive player is above the top of the circle, defender must come to a position above foul line. (within 2.9 seconds)


This is the same as today - when an offensive player is above the tip of circle, his defender can't sag into the paint for more than 3 seconds.

Btw, NBA.com didn't list the full rule from the NBA rule book - when a defender's man moves above the tip of the circle, the defender has 3 seconds to come out of the paint to a position above the foul line.. Obviously, the defender wouldn't need to instantaneously come out of the paint - Rule 2e gives the defender 3 seconds, just like today's rule.





Today's game has shooting-enforced spacing, not rule-enforced spacing


Today's game has rule-enforced spacing in the paint ("armslength").... and spacing-enforced spacing outside the paint via 3-pointers.

Otoh, previous eras didn't have spacing-enforced spacing (no 3's).

They didn't have material rules-enforced spacing either - defenders could paint-camp and they could sag off 3-point shooters to the edge of the paint just like today's defenders.





Elite scorer numbers are down across the board


False - there were only two 30-point scorers in the entire 90's - MJ did it 6 times and Karl Malone once - that's only 2 guys.. But in the 2000's there have been many 30-point scorers.. It's like night and day...

Furthermore, there are only 2 ball-dominators never even broke 25 ppg in the 90's!!!... The game just wasn't set up for ball-dominators back then like it is now.. Otoh, the no spacing and hand-checking of previous eras are the two things least conducive to penetration.





ball movement and clever schemes are required for these elite scorers to hit the box score.


False again - over 50% of Harden and Lebron's offense comes from isolations and screen-roll.. It was 60% for Lebron in the playoffs.. 50-60% is standard for point guards and ball-dominators like Harden and Lebron and CP3.





George Karl on how the rule changes have made post ups inefficient


George Karl is wrong..

It's a mathematical fact that without 3-pointers, the efficiency of screen rolls/drive-and-kick plummets and becomes not worthwhile compared to post-ups.. This proves that the decline in post-ups is due to higher efficiency drive-and-kick made possible by 3-pointers, not defensive tactics.. In the absence of 3-pointers, no amount of defensive strategy could prevent post-ups from supplanting drive-and-kick.

Since post-ups, mid-range, off-ball and isolations were the only things left in the 80's without the 3-pointers needed to make drive-and-kick back worthwhile, we can say with certainty that Lebron would be half the player back then - he's simply not elite in any of these areas.





2001 - Removal of Illegal Defense Guidelines

Purpose: To encourage ball movement and team play through giving defenses more freedom to defend, particularly help defense from the weak side, which was extremely restricted from 1981-2001 with the Illegal defense guideline in place


The NBA said their rule changes were meant to create superior spacing, which put ALL defenders a further distance away from helping, especially weakside help defenders.

Specifically, the NBA said they wanted to increase drive-and-kick to encourage 3's and make spacing better, so they robbed the defense of their hands (literally) and forced them to keep the paint clear (defensive 3 seconds) to "open up the game".. Here the NBA's official statements on the rule changes:

http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/04/09/stujackson/index.html





You simply cannot compare stats across eras without mentioning the rule changes


PREVIOUS ERA: paint-camping... no-spacing... hand-checking
TODAY'S ERA:..... shading.......... spacing.. ..no hand-checking


Remember, Wade and Westbrook led league in scoring in 2009 and 2015 with a worse 3-point shot and far worse mid-range shot than MJ.. Nor could they double-pump with ease from the FT line (http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-03-2015/64Ba72.gif) like MJ.. And let's compare the defenses they faced:

I guess that's why MJ was able to average 37 PPG on 59% TS despite shooting all 2-pointers amidst every-possession double-teams (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLDGm8pV6uU&t=6m40s)... Only the goat has it like that (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=386210).

[navy]

Jordan
Agreed.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Is Westbrook the best player today? But anyway, water is wet.

[BuffaloBill]

http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/bcga.gif

[JT123]

Jordan in today's era = JR Smith without the 3 point shooting. :sleeping

[Roundball_Rock]

I agree. Prime Michael Jordan would be the best player if he played today. Thanks for the insight.

[Lebronxrings]

Jordan in today's era = JR Smith without the 3 point shooting. :sleeping
/thread

[sd3035]

Jordan would be another Dion Waiters in today's game

[KirbyPls]

Jordan

Spot on. :applause:

[Budadiiii]

Westbrook is faster, more explosive, more tenacious, plays harder, and is the better play maker.

He has an argument over Jordan as the better player

[buddha]

Jordan would probably average 35/6/6 at .530% in today's era.


oh wait, he already did that in the 80's.


It wouldn't surprise me if Jordan averaged 40 points a game for at least one season if he played in this era.

[navy]

Westbrook is faster, more explosive, more tenacious, plays harder, and is the better play maker.

He has an argument over Jordan as the better player
Durant plays with a player better than Jordan and has no rings? :biggums:

[JohnMax]

Westbrook is averaging 6.5 rebounds this year. Jordan's career average is 6.2

[stephanieg]

If Jordan grew up in today's era he'd probably be a three point chucker like everyone else.

[Le Shaqtus]

Jordan in today's era = JR Smith without the 3 point shooting. :sleeping

I didn't think it was possible but you're going beyond the realms of human stupidity with every post, it's disappointing AND impressive.

[SamuraiSWISH]

If Jordan grew up in today's era he'd probably be a three point chucker like everyone else.
Too smart shot selection wise to do that ... mid range wins championships. See: MJ, Kobe, Wade, and LeBron in 2012 / 2013. Chucking 3's makes for early exits. Fools gold shot.

[Im so nba'd out]

Durant plays with a player better than Jordan and has no rings? :biggums:
http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view/518441/glass-joe-knockout-o.gif
http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Kevin-Garnett-Reaction-at-2013-Dunk-Contest.gif

[jzek]

Wait, ppl are still arguing how dominant MJ would be in this era? :facepalm

[Dro]

Durant plays with a player better than Jordan and has no rings? :biggums:
:lol

[SugarHill]

Wait, ppl are still arguing how dominant MJ would be in this era? :facepalm
Some people have reached a stage where any accomplishment from players of this era simply help to add to Jordan's legacy. It's wild.

[ralph_i_el]

If MJ grew up today he would have been cut from his high school JV team and would be working at burger king right now.

[24-Inch_Chrome]

http://i.giphy.com/eIwfsyhLJiNzy.gif

[Smoke117]

Too smart shot selection wise to do that ... mid range wins championships. See: MJ, Kobe, Wade, and LeBron in 2012 / 2013. Chucking 3's makes for early exits. Fools gold shot.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/c2/04/47/c20447790fac4ad9999b16024a368617.jpg

Yeah 5.3 three point attempts this season on under .30%...that shot selection. Guys shot selection has always been terrible...what the **** are you doing putting him with those other 3 in this regard?

[sdot_thadon]

Some people have reached a stage where any accomplishment from players of this era simply help to add to Jordan's legacy. It's wild.
What's sad is they don't even appear to enjoy the game of basketball.

[Roundball_Rock]

What's sad is they don't even appear to enjoy the game of basketball.

Exactly. Some of these guys go on and on about 80's and 90's basketball but you never hear them talking about today's game. They are missing out on some great players and great action by constantly living in the past.

[King Jane]

TOPKEK

hell naw grampa

https://slangrap.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/jordangqfeb2011.jpg

westbrook crushes him evry way possible

http://imagestoring.net/gfx/1114/russell-westbrook-shirtless-abs.jpeg

[LoneyROY7]

Poor man's Tony Allen.

[Cocaine80s]

Westbrook is more athletic than Jordan

[SyRyanYang]

Jordan in today's era = JR Smith without the 3 point shooting. :sleeping

So Lebron has MJ with 3pt shotting coming of the bench?

#noexcuse

[SamuraiSWISH]

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/c2/04/47/c20447790fac4ad9999b16024a368617.jpg

Yeah 5.3 three point attempts this season on under .30%...that shot selection. Guys shot selection has always been terrible...what the **** are you doing putting him with those other 3 in this regard?
I'm talking about mid range scoring skill set, and ability. Come on bruh, I know you're smarter than this ... keep up.

If we're ranking these specific players abilities to score from mid range / post:

1) MJ: 6 rings, 6 Finals MVPs
2) Kobe: 5 rings, 2 Finals MVPs
3) Wade: 3 rings, Finals MVP
4) LeBron: 2 rings, 2 Finals MVPs

It's no coincidence that Bron didn't finally win until he could score consistently in that area of the floor. Which was the 2012 season. It's a skill set that allows players from the perimeter to flourish in the post season. Thus why Harden is always such a failure come playoff time.

[Beastmode88]

Westbrook is more athletic than Jordan

Here comes the 3ball gif spam.

[G0ATbe]

MJ was a great player, but was also greatly overrated. He wouldn't even be top 3 today. Top 5 definitely though.

[Roundball_Rock]

MJ was a great player, but was also greatly overrated. He wouldn't even be top 3 today. Top 5 definitely though.

:coleman:

Who would you put ahead of him?

[Badazzwriter]

Jordan in today's era = JR Smith without the 3 point shooting. :sleeping
:biggums:

[KirbyPls]

TOPKEK

hell naw grampa

https://slangrap.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/jordangqfeb2011.jpg

westbrook crushes him evry way possible

http://imagestoring.net/gfx/1114/russell-westbrook-shirtless-abs.jpeg

Westbrook looks natural.

[Smoke117]

I'm talking about mid range scoring skill set, and ability. Come on bruh, I know you're smarter than this ... keep up.

If we're ranking these specific players abilities to score from mid range / post:

1) MJ: 6 rings, 6 Finals MVPs
2) Kobe: 5 rings, 2 Finals MVPs
3) Wade: 3 rings, Finals MVP
4) LeBron: 2 rings, 2 Finals MVPs

It's no coincidence that Bron didn't finally win until he could score consistently in that area of the floor. Which was the 2012 season. It's a skill set that allows players from the perimeter to flourish in the post season. Thus why Harden is always such a failure come playoff time.

No shit. The point is Kobe's shot selection has NEVER BEEN GOOD FROM ANY DISTANCE...EVER. Try and keep up. Your stupid argument that he was a smarter player who was more prone to taking awful mid range shots compared to awful three point shots doesn't mean a whole damn lot...because they are still consistently bad shots regardless of where they were from on the court.

[J Shuttlesworth]

You know it's almost as if "Greatest of all time" means he would be the best player in any era

[3ball]

.
High-level moves as required by no-spacing


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/740c4aeb63705ef81d066269d25f3e54.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/cebaec04eb04d06fba2884406be8c52f.gif.


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/4f2bc467a6f4e6ba3f9e9adeeb4cc57d.gif.


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/4-30-2015/fOCP0H.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/94f87fdc82edd2ed76f57bd0cf564aec.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/9fd33210ffbcdbe117830fd26bef5f34.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/cbaa451890b8e51a1e73d54f0a8e5bfd.gif

[navy]

Jordan
Brilliant post again. :bowdown:

[3ball]

Westbrook looks natural.


Westbrook would look tiny next to Jordan.. he'd look smaller than Joe Dumars.

He's not just significantly shorter - with shorter height comes smaller bone structure... Westbrook is a materially smaller player than Ray Allen (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCOJQOMEJ4Y) or Latrell Sprewell (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvquD3ktNbQ) - and as you can see, both those guys look tiny next to Jordan.

That's why Jordan did so many things physically that Westbrook can't even dream of doing, such as the free throw line dunks shown above and tons of other plays (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10866292&postcount=29).

Or if you're eye test isn't reliable, you can just go by the stats (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=352399), which show that Jordan dunked 3 times as much as Westbrook... Comparing MJ's game (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11021030&postcount=6) to Westbrook shows how differently they get things done, and how plays that are pedestrian for Jordan, are plays of the year for Westbrook.

[navy]

Jordan again
I swear you just posted this. Why delete it?

[Graviton]

3ball what do you think Westbrook would average in the 90s? Say on the Rockets with Hakeem.

[Roundball_Rock]

3ball, why so insecure? Who has argued that prime MJ would not be the best player if he played in 2015?


You know it's almost as if "Greatest of all time" means he would be the best player in any era

:D

[OnFire]

But Wilt would still suck in Today's game right? just trying to keep things straight.

It is funny though how every era thinks their best player would always mop the floor with whatever the current era was. Growing up in the 80's/90's all the old players from the 60's and 70's and early 80's were always talking about how the players of the 80/90's were soft. Now these old ass players from the 80's and 90's are doing the same thing.

[Prometheus]

Are you people serious? Michael Jordan would crush today's league. He dunked more than anyone in the hardest era to dunk. Midrange game on a thousand, and if he came up in this era he would obviously practice more threes.

FACT: at his peak, MJ in today's game would average more than 45 points.
FACT: rookie MJ would win MVP if he was drafted this season.
FACT: MJ would win the scoring title every year he spent in the league.
FACT: MJ would shoot at least 45% on three-point shots in today's game.

[3ball]

FACT: at his peak, MJ in today's game would average more than 40 points.
FACT: rookie MJ would win MVP if he was drafted this season.
FACT: MJ would win the scoring title every year he spent in the league.


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Jordan_dunks_on_Ostertag_47f5b1aaa51700634363c3b17 c56dcba.gif


agreed, and keep in mind that ROOKIE jordan was superior to today's westbrook in every way - bigger, stronger, more athletic, more explosive, more skilled, much smarter..

rookie jordan made a million plays that westbrook isn't capable of doing PERIOD, and plenty more plays that were easy for jordan, but would be plays of the year for westbrook.

i'm talking about ROOKIE jordan..

also, 2nd three-peat jordan would destroy this westbrook as well, and not just through GOAT skill, GOAT smarts, and a vastly superior offensive repertoire.

2nd three-peat Jordan still had comparable hops coupled with vastly superior power, which allowed him to make shots like the GIF above that Westbrook can't do on HIS BEST DAY.

[tgan3]

If Curry played during Jordans era he would be GOAT because of the paint camping rules...No one would contest his 3's and he would make 90% of them...

[Springsteen]

ive come to the conclusion 3ball watches jordan highlight reels when he needs to jack off

[3ball]

If Curry played during Jordans era he would be GOAT because of the paint camping rules...No one would contest his 3's and he would make 90% of them...


Players in any era would contest Curry's 3-pointer the same way they contested Bird's, Miller's or Ellis', and the same way good 3-point shooters are contested today or in any era.

Curry would still hit several per game and crush it from that distance, but that's no different than today.

Now what Curry WOULDN'T be doing is a damn thing in the paint because unlike today, Curry wouldn't have anyone spreading the floor for him - so there would be no spacing and the paint would be packed like nothing he's ever seen.

Then obviously, it would be harder to get IN the paint to begin with, because defenders could be more physical, including hand-checking.. and once he got in the paint, hard fouls were standard, not suspensions like today..

Curry is already pretty fragile, so he would probably be perpetually hurt in previous eras.. Oh wait..
.

[AirFederer]

Come on now guys. MJ would be a scrub in today`s league. He would polish Kirk Heindrich boots, at best. Worse stats than Spanuolis or whatever the Greek Freak`s called.

Human race has evolved a lot the last 10-20 years. This would absolutely not cut it today.

He would be crushed.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-jH0STHtBN-A/UtuLWfU4kwI/AAAAAAAAAtA/mVx8poi_rMQ/s1600/Jordan+Air+Walk+Crop.gif

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh133/andgar923/el_coxxx_2.gif

OTOH, I`ll give WB his props, I like his intencity and attack modus. A little better decisions making is all he lacks.

[Psileas]

But Wilt would still suck in Today's game right? just trying to keep things straight.

It is funny though how every era thinks their best player would always mop the floor with whatever the current era was. Growing up in the 80's/90's all the old players from the 60's and 70's and early 80's were always talking about how the players of the 80/90's were soft. Now these old ass players from the 80's and 90's are doing the same thing.

Correct. It's a stupid human generational trend. Everyone wants to hope that they lived during the era of the best *whatever* to exist.
The best of whichever era would mop the floor with the average competition of whichever era.

[SugarHill]

Lol how about google what a "fact" is you stupid ****.
He was satirizing 3ball, man

[Straight_Ballin]

3ball leavin ni99as shook and insecure once again.

Jordan in any era would dominate.

Fact

Westbrook at his best is still no where near Jordan as a rookie.

[ralph_i_el]

He was satirizing 3ball, man
My b

[dunksby]

3ball, I think Westbrook is a better in-game dunker than Jordan, what do you say?

[lilteapot]

Westbrook is a better human being than Michael Jordan

[Straight_Ballin]

Durant is a better human being than Lebron.

[TheMan]

I didn't think it was possible but you're going beyond the realms of human stupidity with every post, it's disappointing AND impressive.
Pretty sure dudes like JT123, LeBronXRings, dubeta, Dragic4Life and the rest of the LeStans are trolling hard when the post retarded ass shit like that. I sincerely hope so at least, for their sake.

[24-Inch_Chrome]

All of 3ball's posts reek of insecurity. It seems like whenever someone is being discussed on ISH as a contender for the position of best in the league at something he has to come in and use that as some kind of proof that Jordan would do better.

People have been talking about Westbrook's insane athleticism so 3ball has to come in and talk about how that's proof of Jordan's athletic superiority and how that must mean that he'd dominate today's league. No one said anything to the contrary but he has this constant need to defend his idol from imaginary attacks.

[Dragonyeuw]

Prime/peak MJ combined the very best of the Lebron/Kobe/Wade trio of great perimeter players the past decade plus. Killer(imo superior) mid-range game of Kobe, the creative slashing ability of Wade but in a bigger, stronger package, the superior athleticism of Lebron, combined with killer instinct, all-time great Bball IQ and reactionary instincts/improvisational ability. It's insane for anyone to think he wouldn't' flat-out dominate in this era unless your knowledge of him is derived strictly from youtube clips or the old Wizards version, instead of following his career nightly on WGN telecasts.

And no, it's not nostalgia talking or the refusal to accept that anyone can be better( talking strictly perimeter players right now), as a basketball fan first and foremost I actually *want* someone to come along so I can say ' yeah, this guy is flat-out better'. I just haven't seen it yet.

[TheMan]

Prime/peak MJ combined the very best of the Lebron/Kobe/Wade trio of great perimeter players the past decade plus. Killer(imo superior) mid-range game of Kobe, the creative slashing ability of Wade but in a bigger, stronger package, the superior athleticism of Lebron, combined with killer instinct, all-time great Bball IQ and reactionary instincts/improvisational ability. It's insane for anyone to think he wouldn't' flat-out dominate in this era unless your knowledge of him is derived strictly from youtube clips or the old Wizards version, instead of following his career nightly on WGN telecasts.

And no, it's not nostalgia talking or the refusal to accept that anyone can be better( talking strictly perimeter players right now), as a basketball fan first and foremost I actually *want* someone to come along so I can say ' yeah, this guy is flat-out better'. I just haven't seen it yet.
:applause:

Exactly and this is what these younger cats don't understand. Translating that thought in other areas like in the movies business for example, it's like saying so and so director was the GOAT and no current director is on his level, well that sucks because I enjoy watching movies and love watching great films. I want current directors being as great or better than past directors. Same in hoops, I want to see someone as great or
better than MJ, like you said, we're talking perimeter players because prime peak Shaq was as dominant as prime peak MJ, (I still take MJ over Shaq because he had a major weakness to his game whereas MJ had none and MJ's dominated longer).

LeBron is a great player, he's just not on prime peak MJ's level, just telling it like it is

[Prometheus]

He was satirizing 3ball, man

You're not wrong about this - but keep in mind that a lot of truth is said in jest. Using the word "FACT" was a ploy, but I genuinely believe the things that I said.

Honestly think about it: during Jordan's time in the NBA, it was dramatically more difficult to score in the paint, for reasons which OP has spammed onto the front page of this forum countless times. It's annoying that he won't shut up about it - but it is COMPLETELY FACTUAL and correct. Today's NBA is geared toward allowing more penetration and making it easier for perimeter players to attack the basket.

In spite of all that, Jordan was vastly superior to any of today's greatest slashers, and dunked WAY more often over a decidedly superior pool of interior defenders. Whatever he was able to score in the late 80's and early 90's, he should reasonably be able to score 5-10 points more in today's game. He was also a good three point shooter at times, but in today's game he would undoubtedly practice that shot more often - and since defenders would be forced to honor his drive (him being a G.O.A.T. rim-attacker), he would be given space to shoot more often than not.

Using these simple, truth-based arguments to estimate peak-Jordan's production in today's game, we get:

40+ PPG on [I]slightly[I] lower FG% only due to more 3PA

Also he would win the scoring title every season and probably have more than 5 MVP's.

[Papaya Petee]

3ball and Jordan have gotten out of ****ing control. Whats next?

A rookie Jordan would be the best player in 2005-2006? Better than Kobe Wade LeBron? a rookie Jordan >> 35\5\5, 31\7\7, 27\7\6 and a Finals MVP

a rookie Jordan would be the best player in 2008-2009? Better than Kobe Wade LeBron? a rookie Jordan >> 30\8\5\2\1, 28\7\7\2\1, 27\5\5 and a Finals MVP

A rookie Jordan would be the best player last year? Rookie Jordan > 32\7\5 50% Durant and 27\7\7 56% LeBron, Rookie Jordan > MVP Durant

A rookie Jordan would be the best player in 99-00? Obviously better than the 30\15\3 Shaq. MVP? FMVP? Arguably GOAT Finals.. Nah Rookie Jordans better because 3ball said so


Shut the **** up 3ball

[lilteapot]

Maybe if Jordan banged OP's mom a worthless piece of dog shit like OP wouldn't have been born

Jordan's sperm the GOAT sperm

[Prometheus]

3ball and Jordan have gotten out of ****ing control. Whats next?

A rookie Jordan would be the best player in 2005-2006? Better than Kobe Wade LeBron? a rookie Jordan >> 35\5\5, 31\7\7, 27\7\6 and a Finals MVP

a rookie Jordan would be the best player in 2008-2009? Better than Kobe Wade LeBron? a rookie Jordan >> 30\8\5\2\1, 28\7\7\2\1, 27\5\5 and a Finals MVP

A rookie Jordan would be the best player last year? Rookie Jordan > 32\7\5 50% Durant and 27\7\7 56% LeBron, Rookie Jordan > MVP Durant

A rookie Jordan would be the best player in 99-00? Obviously better than the 30\15\3 Shaq. MVP? FMVP? Arguably GOAT Finals.. Nah Rookie Jordans better because 3ball said so


Shut the **** up 3ball

What does it say about your argument here that even when speaking about rookie Jordan, you still had to cherry pick certain years?

[OldSchoolBBall]

3ball and Jordan have gotten out of ****ing control. Whats next?

A rookie Jordan would be the best player in 2005-2006? Better than Kobe Wade LeBron? a rookie Jordan >> 35\5\5, 31\7\7, 27\7\6 and a Finals MVP

a rookie Jordan would be the best player in 2008-2009? Better than Kobe Wade LeBron? a rookie Jordan >> 30\8\5\2\1, 28\7\7\2\1, 27\5\5 and a Finals MVP

A rookie Jordan would be the best player last year? Rookie Jordan > 32\7\5 50% Durant and 27\7\7 56% LeBron, Rookie Jordan > MVP Durant

A rookie Jordan would be the best player in 99-00? Obviously better than the 30\15\3 Shaq. MVP? FMVP? Arguably GOAT Finals.. Nah Rookie Jordans better because 3ball said so


Shut the **** up 3ball

I think it is QUITE possible that a rookie Jordan would be AT LEAST equal to several of those player seasons you mentioned, at least statistically if not in terms of polish (due to being a rookie versus the others being in their 3rd-8th+ seasons).

I think it is ENTIRELY possible that rookie Jordan averages 31/7/7 in 2006 (or thereabouts - maybe like 30-32 pts/6+ reb/6+ ast) - he'd certainly be better than 27/7/6.

[TheMan]

Jordan got the LeStans shook :applause:

[imdaman99]

I wanna see current Westbrook battling rookie MJ. Would be good times and exciting :applause:

[Fire Colangelo]

What does it say about your argument here that even when speaking about rookie Jordan, you still had to cherry pick certain years?

No need to cherry pick, rookie Jordan wouldn't be the best player in the league in any given year.

Even with the rule changes and offensive explosion that happened in 06, the league pace was still way slower than the pace MJ played at. Scoring was lower too. And here we are to believe Jordan will have better stats in an era where there is less possessions per game, and lower scoring per game?

[Straight_Ballin]

Jordan got the LeStans shook :applause:

Like you said, these young cats have no clue. They honestly think that we would rather watch Jordan footage than watch someone come along who is better than he was. It hasn't happened yet and it may never happen but for someone to say Lebron is GOAT simply because he is the best in THEIR era just makes them look stupid, insecure, and shook. These cats talking bout Bron this and Bron that as they peer over their game of NBA 2k15 meanwhile we trying to explain that back when we were their age, we actually went outside and PLAYED basketball from 9am - 9pm on the weekends and in the summer.

[OldSchoolBBall]

No need to cherry pick, rookie Jordan wouldn't be the best player in the league in any given year.

Even with the rule changes and offensive explosion that happened in 06, the league pace was still way slower than the pace MJ played at. Scoring was lower too. And here we are to believe Jordan will have better stats in an era where there is less possessions per game, and lower scoring per game?

Team pace has little to do with individual scoring. Stars in the modern era use up a greater percentage of their team's possessions. Stars always get theirs regardless of pace. Jordan would EASILY put up at least the numbers he did back then in any given year, save perhaps for his peak FG%, which might be, say 52% instead of 54%.

[Angel Face]

Are you people serious? Michael Jordan would crush today's league. He dunked more than anyone in the hardest era to dunk. Midrange game on a thousand, and if he came up in this era he would obviously practice more threes.

FACT: at his peak, MJ in today's game would average more than 45 points.
FACT: rookie MJ would win MVP if he was drafted this season.
FACT: MJ would win the scoring title every year he spent in the league.


This had me thinking, no bias here but what you said is actually true and a fact. Rookie MJ averaged 28/6/6 on 50% fg. Almost similar to Lebron's stat line this year and better than Harden, Curry, Westbrook, etc.

28ppg is higher than the ppg of the current leading scorer Harden. Rookie MJ winning scoring title = check and don't forget Rookie MJ played defense. Averaged 2.4 spg and 0.8 bpg. No doubt if he is playing on a top 5 seeded team can win the MVP.

Scoring title + MVP + Defensive 2nd / 1st team is a possibility... All NBA 1st team as well and this is a "rookie" we're talking about. Now if this is 88 - 93 MJ. :eek: League wrecked.



FACT: MJ would shoot at least 45% on three-point shots in today's game.

This is where I don't fully agree even though I'm one of the biggest MJ fan here. As MJ stated himself way back that he doesn't like shooting too many 3s as it will hurt his overall game. I think he will still average same numbers he has from the 3 point line in 90 - 93 season.

[Roundball_Rock]

FACT: rookie MJ would win MVP if he was drafted this season.


This had me thinking, no bias here but what you said is actually true and a fact. Rookie MJ averaged 28/6/6 on 50% fg. Almost similar to Lebron's stat line this year and better than Harden, Curry, Westbrook, etc.


Rookie Jordan>prime LeBron? Really? What is next? Wizards Jordan=prime Harden (hey, wasn't he putting up something like 25/5/5 before getting hurt!)? This kind of stuff is what gets MJ fans in trouble and results in a backlash against the Jordan mythology. :lol

You can't simply transfer stats from 1985 to 2015. That is like saying prime Wilt would score 50 ppg today because he did it in 1962.

Relax. Prime MJ would be the best player today. We all get it. No need for claiming rookie MJ would be MVP today.

[bizil]

Due to size, I think Westbrook is showing what David Thompson would have been like with PG skills! Thompson was more of a SG-SF. Westbrook is totally reshaping the PG position. Freakish athlete, true alpha dog, and a great all around player in one! Even though he's a PG, I compare him more to guys like Thompson and Wade.

[Fire Colangelo]

Team pace has little to do with individual scoring. Stars in the modern era use up a greater percentage of their team's possessions. Stars always get theirs regardless of pace. Jordan would EASILY put up at least the numbers he did back then in any given year, save perhaps for his peak FG%, which might be, say 52% instead of 54%.

Not saying he won't put up numbers he did back then, just saying he won't be putting better numbers like many claim he would. And that he wouldn't be the best player in the game today as a rookie.

[3ball]

Scoring was lower too. And here we are to believe Jordan will have better stats in an era where there is less possessions per game, and lower scoring per game?


Today's pace is 93.8, which is between 6% slower and 5% FASTER than the Bulls played during Jordan's career:


Bulls Pace:

1985:. 99.4.... 6% faster than today's 93.8 pace
1986:. 99.7.... 6%
1987:. 95.8.... 2%
1988:. 95.5.... 2%
1989:. 97.0.... 4%
1990:. 96.7.... 4%
1991:. 95.6.... 2%
1992:. 95.4.... 2%
1993:. 92.5.... (1%) slower than today's 93.8 pace
1995:. 92.0.... (2%)
1996:. 91.1.... (3%)
1997:. 90.0.... (4%)
1998:. 89.0.... (5%)


Jordan 3-peated at a pace between 2% and 6% FASTER than today's game, and then again at a pace that was between 1% and 5% SLOWER than today's game.
.

[3ball]

.
MJ Dunking on Duncan


http://www.gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/7cd0f2d7213f3061b6bfd97470ceb708.gif

http://www.gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/35e143189259ba9efd81c628c18e0eb1.gif

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Michael_Jordan_Dunks_On_Tim_Du_c637e9b63274127bb96 6a04f34e07da9.gif

[Smoke117]

Today's pace is 93.8, which is between 6% slower and 5% FASTER than the Bulls played during Jordan's career:


Bulls Pace:

1985:. 99.4.... 6% faster than today's 93.8 pace
1986:. 99.7.... 6%
1987:. 95.8.... 2%
1988:. 95.5.... 2%
1989:. 97.0.... 4%
1990:. 96.7.... 4%
1991:. 95.6.... 2%
1992:. 95.4.... 2%
1993:. 92.5.... (1%) slower than today's 93.8 pace
1995:. 92.0.... (2%)
1996:. 91.1.... (3%)
1997:. 90.0.... (4%)
1998:. 89.0.... (5%)


Jordan 3-peated at a pace between 2% and 6% faster than today's game, and then again at a pace that was between 1% and 5% SLOWER than today's game.
.

http://new1.fjcdn.com/thumbnails/comments/Tell+me+more+about+sparta+_307e344a16de578bbb4c6bb ea02b14aa.jpg

[24-Inch_Chrome]

http://new1.fjcdn.com/thumbnails/comments/Tell+me+more+about+sparta+_307e344a16de578bbb4c6bb ea02b14aa.jpg

:roll:

[OldSchoolBBall]

Not saying he won't put up numbers he did back then, just saying he won't be putting better numbers like many claim he would. And that he wouldn't be the best player in the game today as a rookie.

Imo he'd easily be better than Westbrook, Curry, Harden and probably Durant too (Jordan just did more as a playmaker and defender than KD or Harden do, and is a better scorer/defender than Curry; far more versatile and efficient than Westbrook). He'd have better numbers than Lebron this year even though 2015 Lebron is likely the better player.

[Smoke117]

Imo he'd easily be better than Westbrook, Curry, Harden and probably Durant too (Jordan just did more as a playmaker and defender than KD or Harden do, and is a better scorer/defender than Curry; far more versatile and efficient than Westbrook). He'd have better numbers than Lebron this year even though 2015 Lebron is likely the better player.

How much better would Wizards Jordan be than them doe? We already know you believe any iteration of Bulls Jordan is better than all other players who have ever played combined...but what about Wizards Jordan? Is he just better than all players in an given era? Please tell us more.

[OldSchoolBBall]

How much better would Wizards Jordan be than them doe? We already know you believe any iteration of Bulls Jordan is better than all other players who have ever played combined...but what about Wizards Jordan? Is he just better than all players in an given era? Please tell us more.

What part of my post do you actually disagree with, rather than just being snarky? Rookie Jordan simply was better than the players I listed for the reasons stated. Tell me where I'm wrong.

[Fire Colangelo]

Imo he'd easily be better than Westbrook, Curry, Harden and probably Durant too (Jordan just did more as a playmaker and defender than KD or Harden do, and is a better scorer/defender than Curry; far more versatile and efficient than Westbrook). He'd have better numbers than Lebron this year even though 2015 Lebron is likely the better player.

Rookie Jordan would be on Anthony Davis tier IMO (a little better than AD, but below LeBron), insane stats but on a losing/boarderline playoff team.




Today's pace is 93.8, which is between 6% slower and 5% FASTER than the Bulls played during Jordan's career:


Bulls Pace:

1985:. 99.4.... 6% faster than today's 93.8 pace
1986:. 99.7.... 6%
1987:. 95.8.... 2%
1988:. 95.5.... 2%
1989:. 97.0.... 4%
1990:. 96.7.... 4%
1991:. 95.6.... 2%
1992:. 95.4.... 2%
1993:. 92.5.... (1%) slower than today's 93.8 pace
1995:. 92.0.... (2%)
1996:. 91.1.... (3%)
1997:. 90.0.... (4%)
1998:. 89.0.... (5%)


Jordan 3-peated at a pace between 2% and 6% FASTER than today's game, and then again at a pace that was between 1% and 5% SLOWER than today's game.
.

I was referring to rookie Jordan, so your whole post is pretty much irrelevant.

[kshutts1]

I don't know why we still get sucked in to this...
Westbrook is probably more athletic than Jordan.
Jordan is a far better player than Westbrook will ever be.

Now for a realism point... I know, weird on ISH... how would Jordan do in today's game from a mentality sense? More media following his every excursion and mistake, a bigger microscope, and a more team-oriented approach?

More media/bigger microscope - Jordan has some pretty famous stories of skipping/cancelling practice, golfing before the Finals, partying, etc. Obviously he was still incredible, but the media likes to make something out of nothing. Jordan would have more BS to deal with. Not saying he couldn't do it (he certainly could and would) but it would definitely lower the public perception of him, and how would that grate on him?

Team-oriented approach - Tons of sources point to how difficult it was for any coach to make Jordan buy in to a particular brand of basketball. If Jordan is playing today, what coach is making him buy in now?

I'd say that Jordan in today's league would be VERY similar to Wilt. Tons of statistical glory, huge, inconceivable numbers, but a lot less titles than he "should" have considering his personal greatness. His relative unwillingness to sacrifice for the team would hold the team back.

[Roundball_Rock]

3ball, in your opinion how does rookie MJ compare to the 2015 versions of LeBron, Westbrook, Harden, AD and Curry?


How much better would Wizards Jordan be than them doe? We already know you believe any iteration of Bulls Jordan is better than all other players who have ever played combined...but what about Wizards Jordan? Is he just better than all players in an given era? Please tell us more.

Good question. 3ball?

[Prometheus]

Westbrook is probably more athletic than Jordan.


:coleman:

[Straight_Ballin]

The logic presented isn't hard to follow. Westbrook is tearing up this league so a vastly superior form of him known as Jordan would tear up the league today even more so.

[mehyaM24]

defensive rating is the best metric to evaluate defenses.

you compare lebron & jordan against said defenses with a 101 drtg or lower (yesterday's golden state warriors team), and jordan comes out looking like an inefficient volume scorer - evidenced by jordan's sub 41% shooting.

:confusedshrug:

[kshutts1]

:coleman:
I don't get it.

For one, athleticism is incredibly subjective. No real measurement. It's easy to say that Michael Jordan is more athletic than Jared Sullinger.

But what about...
Kobe v Nash?

AI v KG?

As with anything, it depends on criteria. So much goes in to a person's athleticism that it's difficult to compare properly.

All I know is.. Westbrook appears to be an athletic stand-out in today's league. Dunks with ferocity, never seems to get tired, fast as hell, a leaper, great hand-eye coordination, balance, body control....

Jordan had all that, too.

I see literally ZERO reason to claim with any certainly that one is more athletic than the other. Zero.

[Prometheus]

I don't get it.

For one, athleticism is incredibly subjective. No real measurement. It's easy to say that Michael Jordan is more athletic than Jared Sullinger.

But what about...
Kobe v Nash?

AI v KG?

As with anything, it depends on criteria. So much goes in to a person's athleticism that it's difficult to compare properly.

All I know is.. Westbrook appears to be an athletic stand-out in today's league. Dunks with ferocity, never seems to get tired, fast as hell, a leaper, great hand-eye coordination, balance, body control....

Jordan had all that, too.

I see literally ZERO reason to claim with any certainly that one is more athletic than the other. Zero.

Well I would say that age-for-age, Jordan was visibly quicker and faster, but it's close enough that it's not worth harping on...

If body control / agility / dexterity / balance / hand-eye coordination factors into athleticism... at all... it is a monstrous advantage for Jordan over Westbrook...

But most obviously... he jumped significantly higher.

[kshutts1]

Well I would say that age-for-age, Jordan was visibly quicker and faster, but it's close enough that it's not worth harping on...

If body control / agility / dexterity / balance / hand-eye coordination factors into athleticism... at all... it is a monstrous advantage for Jordan over Westbrook...

But most obviously... he jumped significantly higher.
Why a monstrous advantage? What is your evidence?
And Jordan jumped higher? That's news to me. Pretty sure both are very similar leapers. I'd wager, without doing a full study, that they were within 2" of each other in terms of vert.

Pending your evidence, I'd say the athleticism is close enough to be a non-factor.

[24-Inch_Chrome]

Why a monstrous advantage? What is your evidence?
And Jordan jumped higher? That's news to me. Pretty sure both are very similar leapers. I'd wager, without doing a full study, that they were within 2" of each other in terms of vert.

Pending your evidence, I'd say the athleticism is close enough to be a non-factor.

Westbrook's draft profile has him listed at 36.5" but I'd be surprised if he was below 42". When he hit his head off the backboard in the ASG his head was very close to rim level...if it was at rim level he's at a 44.5" vertical.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Westbrook has similar straight line acceleration to Jordan once he gets moving (perhaps even a tad faster), but Jordan's first step was far superior. Jordan was also more agile laterally. You will never see a guy face his defender up and just choose a direction and blow by him regularly the way Jordan used to do. His first step was super fast and long. Coupled with his extra few inches on Westbrook, it made him impossible to stay in front of. He was also a far better leaper in every respect, far better body control, coordination, and reflexes.

I also lol @ these clowns who act like it's blasphemy to suggest that rookie Jordan was better than current Harden or Curry. Hysterical. Rookie MJ would sh!t on these clowns. :oldlol:

[Straight_Ballin]

Westbrook has similar straight line acceleration to Jordan once he gets moving (perhaps even a tad faster), but Jordan's first step was far superior. Jordan was also more agile laterally. You will never see a guy face his defender up and just choose a direction and blow by him regularly the way Jordan used to do. His first step was super fast and long. Coupled with his extra few inches on Westbrook, it made him impossible to stay in front of. He was also a far better leaper in every respect, far better body control, coordination, and reflexes.

I also lol @ these clowns who act like it's blasphemy to suggest that rookie Jordan was better than current Harden or Curry. Hysterical. Rookie MJ would sh!t on these clowns. :oldlol:

Can't expect much of a valid opinion from those who only seen one era of basketball.

[f0und]

dont have much to add to the discussion but reading through this thread reminded me of my favorite jordan commercial. just thought id share.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IpfzaqIuR34

[IGOTGAME]

Westbrook has similar straight line acceleration to Jordan once he gets moving (perhaps even a tad faster), but Jordan's first step was far superior. Jordan was also more agile laterally. You will never see a guy face his defender up and just choose a direction and blow by him regularly the way Jordan used to do. His first step was super fast and long. Coupled with his extra few inches on Westbrook, it made him impossible to stay in front of. He was also a far better leaper in every respect, far better body control, coordination, and reflexes.

I also lol @ these clowns who act like it's blasphemy to suggest that rookie Jordan was better than current Harden or Curry. Hysterical. Rookie MJ would sh!t on these clowns. :oldlol:

I agree except I would just say Russel is faster in terms of straight line acceleration. I think its a big enough difference to say that.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Westbrook has similar straight line acceleration to Jordan once he gets moving (perhaps even a tad faster), but Jordan's first step was far superior. Jordan was also more agile laterally. You will never see a guy face his defender up and just choose a direction and blow by him regularly the way Jordan used to do. His first step was super fast and long. Coupled with his extra few inches on Westbrook, it made him impossible to stay in front of. He was also a far better leaper in every respect, far better body control, coordination, and reflexes.
:applause:

[warriorfan]

Jordan was maybe / probably on PED's

Westbrook is definitely on PED's


Jordan still better athlete though