What would have happened in 1993 Finals if MJ averaged 28 PPG instead of 41?

[3ball]

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-MQmXy-g7bHQ/U55YJiPhrAI/AAAAAAAAHmE/SxmlR-Ep7rk/s1600/leb.gif


Team Stats - 1993 Finals

Bulls PPG: 106.7
Suns PPG: 106.7

Bulls ORtg: 113.0
Suns ORtg: 113.0


CLIFFS: As you can see, every ounce of Jordan's 41 PPG was needed.. Otoh, when it was Lebron's turn to take a shot at 3-peating, his production stopped at 28 PPG and the remaining gap was left for his teammates to make up.. But without their leader attracting sufficient defensive attention and disrupting the defense by being aggressive, the supporting cast was left uninspired by their passive, play-it-safe leader, and they were unable to makeup the gap.. Naturally, the Heat got obliterated.


Just like Lebron in the 2014 Finals, Jordan went up against a juggernaut offense (Phoenix was #1 in the league).. Accordingly, Jordan knew he needed to score a maximum amount just to keep his team close, as the stats show.

Otoh, Lebron's took the opposite approach - his production stopped at 28 PPG and the remaining gap was left to his teammates to make up... The stats prove just how safe Lebron played it... Specifically, in 21 out of the 24 years since 1991, the team leader in shot attempts on the Finals-winning team took more than 25.56% of the team's shots - which means that the load Lebron took on in 2014 Finals (25.56% of his team's shots) was not a large load, and the notion that he couldn't have done more, or that no one else would've done more, is wrong - 21 out of the last 24 did more.

Let's not forget that Jordan averaged 6.3 APG with 2.7 TO (compared to Lebron's 4 APG and 4 TO).. This is obviously a function of Jordan's immense skill to still involve teammates for such a good assist-to-turnover ration, while scoring 41 PPG.. Also, his aggressiveness attracted attention, which opened it up for teammates and got them off... Meanwhile, Lebron's efficiency-seeking, play-it-safe approach got highly exploited - the Spurs knew he wasn't a threat for a high number of shot attempts, so they wisely stayed home on his teammates and shut them down.

The massive difference in how both players approached playing the top offense in the league is obvious - one was smart and knew he needed to score a lot to keep up, and the other played it safe and got destroyed.. one approach opened it up for teammates, while the other approach allowed the other team to lock them up.
.

[navy]

Jordan
:applause:

[Smoke117]

Jordan

:applause:

[KobesFinger]

Who's to say the other Bulls wouldn't have scored more?

[Im Still Ballin]

Jordan killed his father.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Obviously 4 Losses. 5 for 6.

[Budadiiii]

Jordan killed his father.
alpha

[SouBeachTalents]

It also helps when Pippen, Grant, and Armstrong all arguably outplayed LeBron's second best teammate in the 2014 Finals

[Roundball_Rock]

It also helps when Pippen, Grant, and Armstrong all arguably outplayed LeBron's second best teammate in the 2014 Finals

Good point.

Pippen 21/9/8 and dominant defense
Grant 11/10/2 and elite defense
Armstrong 14/2/5
Combined: 46/21/15

versus:

Wade 15/4/3
Bosh 14/5/1
Allen 10/3/2
Combined: 39/12/6

So MJ's best "supporting players" contributed 7 more points, 9 more rebounds and 9 more assists per game. MJ averaged 33 FGA in the 93' Finals. He had one of the best Finals ever--it is a shame 3ball is focusing on an agenda and not crediting MJ for such a legendary performance cleanly--but this is comparing two very different players. LeBron, as his team's primary playmaker and ballhandler, simply cannot take 33 FGA per game and have it be conducive to his team's success. The MJ vs. LeBron comparisons are not "like for like" comparisons. It is like comparing MJ to Magic or LeBron to Kareem. They perform(ed) different functions for their respective teams.

[SouBeachTalents]

Good point.

Pippen 21/9/8 and dominant defense
Grant 11/10/2 and elite defense
Armstrong 14/2/5

versus:

Wade 15/4/3
Bosh 14/5/1
Allen 10/3/2

MJ averaged 33 FGA in the 93' Finals. He had one of the best Finals ever but this is comparing two very different players. LeBron, as his team's primary playmaker and ballhandler, simply cannot take 33 FGA per game and have it be conducive to his team's success. The MJ vs. LeBron comparisons are not "like for like" comparisons. It is like comparing MJ to Magic or LeBron to Kareem. They perform(ed) different functions for their respective teams.

As mediocre as Wade & Bosh's numbers are, they don't even tell the whole story. Bosh was invisible the last 3 games of the Finals, and Wade was abysmal the last 2 games, and played terrible defense all series.

[Angel Face]

Honestly they wouldn't win. That Suns team is full of talented players that the Bulls needed MJ to average 40+ ppg to win 4 - 2. 40ppg and still 2 loses. That's how good 93 Suns was. Other playoff teams will get swept with that kind of production from MJ. 28ppg won't cut it, they will get swept.

[Roundball_Rock]

Honestly they wouldn't win. That Suns team is full of talented players that the Bulls needed MJ to average 40+ ppg to win 4 - 2. 40ppg and still 2 loses. That's how good 93 Suns was. Other playoff teams will get swept with that kind of production from MJ. 28ppg won't cut it, they will get swept.

Good points but the 93' Suns were not an unbeatable juggernaut. They were taken to 7 games in the WCF by a Sonics team that had pre-prime Payton, 23 year old Kemp and Ricky Pierce as its best players. The same Suns core would then proceed to choke in the WCSF in both 94' and 95' (albeit with a diminished Barkley by that point). I do agree, though, that if MJ did not have a legendary Finals in 93' Chicago would have lost. Phoenix had a great series.

Right, SouthBeach. LeBron was almost a one man team in the Finals last year, especially for the last three games. :oldlol: at Bosh averaging only 5 boards.

[Smoke117]

Good points but the 93' Suns were not an unbeatable juggernaut. They were taken to 7 games in the WCF by a Sonics team that had pre-prime Payton, 23 year old Kemp and Ricky Pierce as its best players. The same Suns core would then proceed to choke in the WCSF in both 94' and 95' (albeit with a diminished Barkley by that point). I do agree, though, that if MJ did not have a legendary Finals in 93' Chicago would have lost. Phoenix had a great series.

Right, SouthBeach. LeBron was almost a one man team in the Finals last year, especially for the last three games. :oldlol: at Bosh averaging only 5 boards.

People always overrate the 93 suns. People like to act as if they ran through the competition on their way to the Bulls in the playoffs. People also like to forget that the Bulls/Suns series was a triple ot game (where Pippen and Jordan were ass) away from being a quick 5 game series. They literally could have been "below average" and won that game.

[Roundball_Rock]

People always overrate the 93 suns. People like to act as if they ran through the competition on their way to the Bulls in the playoffs. People also like to forget that the Bulls/Suns series was a triple ot game (where Pippen and Jordan were ass) away from being a quick 5 game series. They literally could have been "below average" and won that game.

Agreed. Not only did Phoenix have a tough WCF they almost lost in the first round to a washed up Lakers squad (the #8 seed). :lol

The disconnect between their performance--numerous razor thin series from 1993-1995--and their reputation is they are one of those teams that look better on paper than on the court. On paper a team with prime Barkley, prime KJ, Majerle and some solid role players (Dumas was solid before his drug issues as was Oliver Miller prior to his weight issues) should have been great.

[inclinerator]

alpha
:lol well wasnt his father a pedo? so i guess it is

[Smoke117]

Agreed. Not only did Phoenix have a tough WCF they almost lost in the first round to a washed up Lakers squad (the #8 seed). :lol

The disconnect between their performance--numerous razor thin series from 1993-1995--and their reputation is they are one of those teams that look better on paper than on the court. On paper a team with prime Barkley, prime KJ, Majerle and some solid role players (Dumas was solid before his drug issues as was Oliver Miller prior to his weight issues) should have been great.

It makes sense too...the Suns were not an elite team defensively. They were the best team in the league scoring wise, but everyone knows defense carries over to the playoffs much more consistently than offense as the intensity rises.

[bizil]

Good point.

Pippen 21/9/8 and dominant defense
Grant 11/10/2 and elite defense
Armstrong 14/2/5
Combined: 46/21/15

versus:

Wade 15/4/3
Bosh 14/5/1
Allen 10/3/2
Combined: 39/12/6

So MJ's best "supporting players" contributed 7 more points, 9 more rebounds and 9 more assists per game. MJ averaged 33 FGA in the 93' Finals. He had one of the best Finals ever--it is a shame 3ball is focusing on an agenda and not crediting MJ for such a legendary performance cleanly--but this is comparing two very different players. LeBron, as his team's primary playmaker and ballhandler, simply cannot take 33 FGA per game and have it be conducive to his team's success. The MJ vs. LeBron comparisons are not "like for like" comparisons. It is like comparing MJ to Magic or LeBron to Kareem. They perform(ed) different functions for their respective teams.

Well said! Me personally, Bron is more similar to guys like Magic, Pippen, Grant Hill, and Big O. Point guards or point forwards. MJ could do anything on a basketball court as we all know. But Pippen was the point forward while MJ was the closer. Originally, the plan in Miami was for Bron to play the Pippen role and Wade to be the closer. Once Wade's health started going down, Bron had to play like he did in Cleveland.

[knicksman]

It also helps when Pippen, Grant, and Armstrong all arguably outplayed LeBron's second best teammate in the 2014 Finals


excuses are for the weak. 35 yr old kareem still averaged 25ppg

[knicksman]

Well said! Me personally, Bron is more similar to guys like Magic, Pippen, Grant Hill, and Big O. Point guards or point forwards. MJ could do anything on a basketball court as we all know. But Pippen was the point forward while MJ was the closer. Originally, the plan in Miami was for Bron to play the Pippen role and Wade to be the closer. Once Wade's health started going down, Bron had to play like he did in Cleveland.

Actually bran wanted to be pippen and jordan at the same time during easy times. And only have wade and bosh as back ups in case the going gets tough.

[SouBeachTalents]

excuses are for the weak. 35 yr old kareem still averaged 25ppg

35 year old Kareem > 2014 Wade or Bosh

[knicksman]

35 year old Kareem > 2014 Wade or Bosh

LOLOL at believing that shit. Bro its obvious that youre just a statnerd or you wont be rooting for bran in the first place.

[Roundball_Rock]

35 year old Kareem > 2014 Wade or Bosh

:oldlol: at that guy comparing 35 year old Kareem to 14' Wade and Bosh. KAJ was top 5 in MVP voting and first team all-NBA as late as 1986--his 17th season when he was 38. 39 year old Kareem in the Finals was still putting up 19 ppg in 87' (well, he was 40 by the Finals but was 39 for most of the season). Maybe 41 year old KAJ compares to 14' Wade in the Finals--I think KAJ was down to 14-15 ppg in the Finals by then.

Smoke, good point. Phoenix was a juggernaut offensively but played poor defense.


Well said! Me personally, Bron is more similar to guys like Magic, Pippen, Grant Hill, and Big O. Point guards or point forwards. MJ could do anything on a basketball court as we all know. But Pippen was the point forward while MJ was the closer. Originally, the plan in Miami was for Bron to play the Pippen role and Wade to be the closer. Once Wade's health started going down, Bron had to play like he did in Cleveland.

Agreed.

[3ball]

LeBron.. simply cannot take 33 FGA per game and have it be conducive to his team's success.


when has Lebron ever taken 33 FGA for you to know that?

ah yes, lebron fans - their guy doesn't match up in real life, so they have to go by pure conjecture... never facts.

the Heat lost by 14 PPG to the Spurs in 2014 Finals... if Lebron doubles his shot attempts from 17 to 33 like Jordan, and consequently averages 13 more PPG like Jordan (28 to 41), the Heat have a chance to keep up with the Spurs offense, just like the Bulls gave themselves a chance against the Suns.

btw, newsflash - having your SF play point guard impinges on the playmaking duties of the actual PG, and the SG too..

that's why jordan never played point guard (other than that one time (http://www.complex.com/sports/2014/01/michael-jordan-point-guard-in-1989-posted-triple-double-10-of-11-games))... it's just not an optimal way for a wing to play and won't result in the most wins - accordingly, jordan did not employ that style.. he wanted to win more than stat-pad - and he simply didn't give two bird shits about saving face like lebron.
.

[Joyner82reload]

Well seeing as the Bulls as a team shot 50.3 eFG(and that's excluding Jordan's 53 eFG%), the extra shots he took to go from 28->40 ppg would be transferred to the rest of the players on the team who were shooting at roughly the same efficiency. So nothing changes, Bulls still win in 6.

Edit: Actually they would be up 3-0 after 3 games because Jordan's disasterous 44 points on 43 shots game never happens.

[DatAsh]

Well seeing as the Bulls as a team shot 50.3 eFG(and that's excluding Jordan's 53 eFG%), the extra shots he took to go from 28->40 ppg would be transferred to the rest of the players on the team who were shooting at roughly the same efficiency. So nothing changes, Bulls still win in 6.

Edit: Actually they would be up 3-0 after 3 games because Jordan's disasterous 44 points on 43 shots game never happens.

They wouldn't maintain that efficiency though. They'd be taking far more shots, and they'd be facing far tougher coverage in Jordan's absence, both of which negatively affect efg%.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

3ball you make some interesting points but one thing i'm sure we can agree on is that LeBron James is the greatest player of all time :cheers:

[LeBird]

They wouldn't maintain that efficiency though. They'd be taking far more shots, and they'd be facing far tougher coverage in Jordan's absence, both of which negatively affect efg%.

Not necessarily. You can't make that generalisation. Moving the ball around more they could actually get better and cleaner shots and have a higher efg%.

[Springsteen]

I don't think anyone disputes that Jordan was a better finals performer and a better player overall than Lebron. Why make these threads? Do you hate him that much?

[SouBeachTalents]

I don't think anyone disputes that Jordan was a better finals performer and a better player overall than Lebron. Why make these threads? Do you hate him that much?

He's strangely insecure when he has no reason to be. Nobody (unless trolling) would ever argue LeBron is a better postseason/Finals performer than Jordan was

[3ball]

He's strangely insecure when he has no reason to be. Nobody (unless trolling) would ever argue LeBron is a better postseason/Finals performer than Jordan was


if you are a vastly inferior playoff and Finals performer as Lebron is, you are a vastly inferior player period.

playoffs and Finals performance is the only performance that matters because it represents a considerably higher level of competition.

[Roundball_Rock]

Not necessarily. You can't make that generalisation. Moving the ball around more they could actually get better and cleaner shots and have a higher efg%.

Which is actually what happened in 94'. The triangle was run as purely as it ever has been absent a dominant scorer like MJ, Kobe or Shaq (Pippen ranked 8th in scoring but he was a very good but not great scorer like those other 3 triangle players) and the players who were on both the 94' and 93' squads actually shot at a more efficient rate in 94' without MJ than with MJ. This despite people taking more shots and no longer having MJ there to draw defensive attention. While they were more efficient they were not able to offset the entire scoring loss, though, as they went from #2 in offensive rating to #14 (the defense actually improved slightly). This, not FG %, is where the loss of MJ manifested itself. Without MJ's unique ability to create shots the Bulls simply took 5 less FGA in 94', even though their opponent's took only 1 less FGA, and 1 less FTA.

I don't think the Bulls would have won in 93' absent MJ's historic performance but you are right that with greater ball movement some of the lost 13 ppg would be recouped through other players. Where the loss would be felt more would be lacking the "extra gear" to create shots where none exist that MJ and all-time great scorers possess.


when has Lebron ever taken 33 FGA for you to know that?


When has a primary playmaker/ballhandler averaged 33 FGA for a series? It simply does not make sense for a player in that role to shoot that much.


the Heat lost by 14 PPG to the Spurs in 2014 Finals... if Lebron doubles his shot attempts from 17 to 33 like Jordan, and consequently averages 13 more PPG like Jordan (28 to 41), the Heat have a chance to keep up with the Spurs offense

This is specious reasoning. If LeBron took 16 extra shots those shots would not come for free and simply add 13 more ppg to the team total. Those shots would largely come at the expense of FGA's that other players took. Come on.


He's strangely insecure when he has no reason to be. Nobody (unless trolling) would ever argue LeBron is a better postseason/Finals performer than Jordan was

Exactly. Other than trolls and gimmicks I have not seen anyone make that claim.

MJ is the majority GOAT by a large margin in terms of public opinion. Yet of all the top-level all-time greats it is paradoxically MJ fans who are the most insecure. You don't see Wilt fans or Bird fans going around diminishing today's players in general and one player in particular to somehow prop up their retired hero.

[bdreason]

LeBron has never been, and will never be on MJ's level is regards to scoring. If LeBron came out and tried to average 40ppg in a Finals series, his team would lose... badly.

[juju151111]

Round your clueless. No way in ducking he'll the Bulls beat the Suns without Mj. The Bulls offensive rating were not has good in 94 stop the BS bro.

[knicksman]

:oldlol: at that guy comparing 35 year old Kareem to 14' Wade and Bosh. KAJ was top 5 in MVP voting and first team all-NBA as late as 1986--his 17th season when he was 38. 39 year old Kareem in the Finals was still putting up 19 ppg in 87' (well, he was 40 by the Finals but was 39 for most of the season). Maybe 41 year old KAJ compares to 14' Wade in the Finals--I think KAJ was down to 14-15 ppg in the Finals by then.

Smoke, good point. Phoenix was a juggernaut offensively but played poor defense.



Agreed.

Bro you dont understand basketball beyond stats. OR else you wouldve understand by now why magic/russell are winners while bran/robertson are losers. Or why jordan early in his career is a loser.

[3ball]

When has a primary playmaker/ballhandler averaged 33 FGA for a series? It simply does not make sense for a player in that role to shoot that much.


Again, that's why jordan never played point guard (other than that one time (http://www.complex.com/sports/2014/01/michael-jordan-point-guard-in-1989-posted-triple-double-10-of-11-games))... It's just not optimal for a wing to play that way and it won't result in the most wins - accordingly, Jordan did not employ that style..

Jordan wanted to win more than stat-pad - and he simply didn't give two bird shits about saving face like lebron.





If LeBron took 16 extra shots those shots would not come for free and simply add 13 more ppg to the team total. Those shots would largely come at the expense of FGA's that other players took.


Not at all - the reason for Jordan's GOAT status is because his off-ball style allowed him to get his production without affecting the production of teammates AT ALL - this ensured that Jordan's teams always reached their ceiling and never underachieved.. ever.

Look no further than Scottie Pippen and Kukoc's stats when Jordan came back in 96' - they barely changed at all... this is a stark contrast to Love, Bosh, and Wade's stats, who all crater alongside the ball-dominant Lebron.

Jordan's off-ball style allowed him to literally just add his GOAT production right on top of what was already there, without diminishing it at all - this is why the Bulls were so good when he came back, and this why Jordan is GOAT.. He simply could add his GOAT production to a team without affecting the production of teammates.

The Bulls were already a competent 2nd round exit team, and Jordan turned that into a 3-peat dynasty - this was not entirely unexpected, considering he'd already 3-peated once (which was the main reason the team was remotely competent).. but if his style had hindered his teammates production like Lebron's ball-dominance does, he would never have had such a dominant team.
.

[Roundball_Rock]

Round your clueless. No way in ducking he'll the Bulls beat the Suns without Mj. The Bulls offensive rating were not has good in 94 stop the BS bro.

I said both those things. :confusedshrug: Obviously you did not even read my post and simply made assumptions.


It's just not optimal for a wing to play that way and it won't result in the most wins - accordingly, Jordan did not employ that style..


Except that his team did employ a wing in such a role and that shift coincided with the team's greatest period of success.


Look no further than Scottie Pippen and Kukoc's stats when Jordan came back in 96' - they barely changed at all... this is a stark contrast to Love, Bosh, and Wade's stats, who all crater alongside the ball-dominant Lebron.

Jordan's off-ball style allowed him to literally just add his GOAT production right on top of what was already there, without diminishing it at all - this is why the Bulls were so good when he came back, and this why Jordan is GOAT.. He simply could add his GOAT production to a team without affecting the production of teammates.


These are lies. The record speaks for itself. Using prior to the ASG as a proxy for their stats without MJ and April as a proxy for their stats with MJ, since 11 of their 17 games with MJ were in April, Pippen's scoring fell 2.7, Kukoc's 2.5 and Armstrong's 5.1 with MJ. This is not shocking: you don't add 27 ppg from one player without taking FGA away from other players. There are only so many possessions in games.

Jordan indeed was easy to integrate to a team--much more so than LeBron. Why not stick with reality instead of spinning fairly takes that 27 ppg can magically be added with no associated decrease in scoring for his teammates?

BTW your references to him "coming back in 96" and their stats in 96' expose you as being someone who did not even watch MJ play. He came back in 95' yet you twice refer to 96' being the year he returned. Anyone who watched back then can remember when he returned. It was kind of a big deal! :lol

It is amusing that to you LeBron is the yardstick to which MJ should be measured--because of what that implies. I don't see you comparing MJ to Kobe or Durant.

[3ball]

If LeBron took 16 extra shots those shots would not come for free and simply add 13 more ppg to the team total.

Those shots would largely come at the expense of FGA's that other players took.


If this is the case, why did Pippen still average 21 PPG for the series?... That's essentially his career high average - he gets that whether Jordan is there or not.. and why was everyone else's stats the same as always?.. See, you just don't understand how good Jordan was.

Again, unlike Lebron's ball-dominant style that craters the production of teammates, Jordan's off-ball style allowed him to simply add his GOAT production right on top of what was already there, without diminishing it at all - this is why the Bulls were so utterly dominant when he came back in 1996 - Pippen and Kukoc's stats barely changed upon Jordan's return for a full season.

MJ could add his GOAT production to a team without affecting the production of teammates.. Accordingly, his teams always reached their ceiling and never underachieved..... ever.

[bdreason]

What does any of that have to do with LeBron trying to average 40ppg?


LeBron isn't the scorer that MJ was. If he tried to score 40 every game, his team would suffer. Magic wasn't the scorer MJ was either. If Magic came out trying to score 40 every game, his team would suffer.



So what's the point of the thread? We already know MJ is the most dynamic perimeter scorer in the history of the game. Thanks for the reminder? :confusedshrug:

[Roundball_Rock]

LeBron isn't the scorer that MJ was. If he tried to score 40 every game, his team would suffer. Magic wasn't the scorer MJ was either. If Magic came out trying to score 40 every game, his team would suffer.

So what's the point of the thread? We already know MJ is the most dynamic perimeter scorer in the history of the game. Thanks for the reminder? :confusedshrug:

Exactly. Comparing MJ and LeBron in scoring is like comparing Magic and MJ in assists. These are players who performed different functions for their teams.

I do find it amusing that 3ball thinks if LeBron took 16 more FGA that would result in an increase of 13 ppg for the Heat on top of what they were already scoring. LeBron would magically be able to just take 16 more FGA without any decrease in the FGA taken by other players and thus the team's point total would simply increase, in 3ball land, by the increase in LeBron's scoring.

[Cocaine80s]

3ball needs a solid punch to the nuts

[3ball]

So what's the point of the thread? We already know MJ is the most dynamic perimeter scorer in the history of the game. Thanks for the reminder?


MJ's 41 PPG and 6 APG alone proves his superiority over Lebron - it shouldn't really need explanation, but here's why:

First of all, we know Lebron isn't capable of averaging 41 PPG - his inability to carry his team offensively means Jordan's teams would have fared much better than Lebron's against the Mavs and Spurs.

Second of all, we know Lebron can't average 41 points AND 6 assists (since he can't even average the 41 PPG).

Thirdly, we know that Lebron can't even average 25 PPG without cratering the production of teammates, let alone get 41 PPG without affecting teammates (everyone had their same numbers despite Jordan's 41 PPG).

See how much better Jordan was?.. It would be amazing to see him play today's brand of basketball, where the rules are designed (http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/04/09/stujackson/index.html) to open up the middle of the floor and make penetration easier.
.

[3ball]

Exactly. Comparing MJ and LeBron in scoring is like comparing Magic and MJ in assists. These are players who performed different functions for their teams.


But MJ could do it all - he could average 12 assists in the Finals if necessary, whereas Lebron cannot average 41 PPG.






LeBron would magically be able to just take 16 more FGA without any decrease in the FGA taken by other players and thus the team's point total would simply increase, in 3ball land, by the increase in LeBron's scoring.


ur hilarious - this is exactly what Jordan did..

Pippen and everyone else got the same numbers in the 1993 Finals that they always get - Pippen averaged 21 PPG, which he would get whether Jordan was there or not... Jordan simply employed a superior style that allowed him to get his GOAT production without hindering teammates... that's why he's so much better - he had the superior skill to do this.

not only is Lebron not capable of averaging 41 PPG in a Finals or anywhere near that, but he can't even average 25 PPG without cratering Love, Bosh, and Wade's production.

so just imagine what he'd do to their production if he actually was forced to average 41 PPG... it would be a circus show to see if Lebron could get 41, kind of like Wilt's teammates had to sacrifice everything to get him the 100.
.

[bdreason]

Yes, everyone knows MJ was better than LeBron. I've never heard a single person claim LeBron is better than MJ... not even the crazed LeBron trolls on this site.

I think the real question is, why does every great perimeter player need to be compared to MJ? I honestly find it disrespectful to the other great players throughout the history of the sport.

[pauk]

What would have happened if he did that because he instead moved the ball / got more assists and STILL got those extra 13 points for his team and they still won?

[3ball]

What would have happened if he did that because he instead moved the ball / got more assists and STILL got those extra 13 points for his team and they still won?


every Bull was already at their maximum production - Pippen was at his 21 PPG, Horace at 12 PPG, BJ Armstrong at 14 PPG... everyone was already maxed out.

only jordan had the ability to increase his production so the team could average 106.7 PPG for the series, which was juuuuuuust enough to exactly match Phoenix's 106.7 PPG average for the series.

btw, your post is phrased in a manner that implies MJ was at the top of the key pounding the ball, being ball-dominant, and not moving the ball to get his 41 PPG - this is far from the reality - the reason MJ was able to get 41 PPG without hindering his teammates' production (again, his teammates' production was maxed out) is because MJ got most of his points OFF-BALL.. so MJ was receiving a pass before scoring most of the time... the Bulls passed the ball a super-ton in that series.
.

[pauk]

My point is, a player does what a player does based on how the defense plays you, your decision making and your offensive mindset..... you take something away from a player and he finds another way to still make that same impact / accountability..... you force a guy like Jordan to take less shots that series and hence average 28 PPG (instead of 41 PPG) he will have just used those possessions instead for his teammates.... those -13 PPG went missing only for him individually, but didnt actually go missing for the team as he found other ways to get those points for his team with the help of his teammates....

28 ppg with 9 assists (up to 55 points on the boxscore)
41 ppg with 5 assists (up to 55 points on the boxscore)

Those possessions that could have been used to get 41 PPG were used for something else making his stats look different........ but he was still equally accountable for the teams boxscore and hence the outcome ended up the same.....

Magic averaged what, 19 ppg? But he averaged also 11 ppg.... so even if he averaged 0 PPG, by assists alone his team is producing 22-33 PPG........ Assists may not be as glorious & cool as Individual Scoring, but Assists does the same job.....

[pauk]

One more thing, I hate comparing Lebron/Jordan this way, its kindof like comparing Rondo to Rose or CP3 to Westbrook or Rubio to JR Smith or Magic to Jordan or Bird to Jordan or Pippen to Drexler or Stockton to Reggie Miller....

Yes you can compare the accolades & impact.... but they had different games offensively.... different mindsets.... because they go about it differently doesnt mean the impact on the game is better than the other for the outcome of the game.... even though for some of these players that impact may have been greater....

Lebron is more like Magic/Bird rather than Jordan, guys who more often had the instincts of a point guard offensively & some of them had official role of a point-guard no matter what position they started in Magic/Lebron (called Point-Forward), the scoring ability they had was simply there, as great as it was it was not their #1 priority...... these guys felt fine with going passive the entire game, much more than Jordan/Kobe....

Kobe is more like Jordan.... those were traditional SG's, uber pure scorers meaning a score-first mindset... even if they shot bad a in a game, they would still hoist shots, because that was their main job & priority...... the likelyhood of them scoring more points than Magic/Lebron/Bird or especially guys who were even more passing minded like Stockton/Kidd etc. is extremly high....

Whatever the case may be, Jordan is a better player than Lebron was... so i dont understand why you target & try to degrade Lebron so much? Why the insecurity 3ball? What is there to be insecure about?

[Roundball_Rock]

One more thing, I hate comparing Lebron/Jordan this way, its kindof like comparing Rondo to Rose or CP3 to Westbrook or Rubio to JR Smith or Magic to Jordan or Bird to Jordan or Pippen to Drexler or Stockton to Reggie Miller....

Yes you can compare the accolades & impact.... but they had different games offensively.... different mindsets.... because they go about it differently doesnt mean the impact on the game is better than the other for the outcome of the game.... even though for some of these players that impact may have been greater....

Lebron is more like Magic/Bird rather than Jordan, guys who more often had the instincts of a point guard offensively & some of them had official role of a point-guard no matter what position they started in Magic/Lebron (called Point-Forward), the scoring ability they had was simply there, as great as it was it was not their #1 priority...... these guys felt fine with going passive the entire game, much more than Jordan/Kobe....

Kobe is more like Jordan.... those were traditional SG's, uber pure scorers meaning a score-first mindset... even if they shot bad a in a game, they would still hoist shots, because that was their main job & priority...... the likelyhood of them scoring more points than Magic/Lebron/Bird or especially guys who were even more passing minded like Stockton/Kidd etc. is extremly high....

Whatever the case may be, Jordan is a better player than Lebron was... so i dont understand why you target & try to degrade Lebron so much? Why the insecurity 3ball? What is there to be insecure about?

:bowdown:

Regarding your final paragraph, I suspect it is because 3ball and co. are shook that LeBron has a good chance at winning his 3rd ring at age 30 (as many as Mike at that age and as many as Bird for his career). When Cleveland was a mid-pack team they were relatively quiet. What is scary is if Cleveland does indeed go deep in the playoffs they will get worse and if Cleveland actually wins they will get even worse still. It will be a long summer on ISH if the Cavs win. :lol

[swagga]

:biggums: :biggums: :biggums:

:roll:

[knicksman]

One more thing, I hate comparing Lebron/Jordan this way, its kindof like comparing Rondo to Rose or CP3 to Westbrook or Rubio to JR Smith or Magic to Jordan or Bird to Jordan or Pippen to Drexler or Stockton to Reggie Miller....

Yes you can compare the accolades & impact.... but they had different games offensively.... different mindsets.... because they go about it differently doesnt mean the impact on the game is better than the other for the outcome of the game.... even though for some of these players that impact may have been greater....

Lebron is more like Magic/Bird rather than Jordan, guys who more often had the instincts of a point guard offensively & some of them had official role of a point-guard no matter what position they started in Magic/Lebron (called Point-Forward), the scoring ability they had was simply there, as great as it was it was not their #1 priority...... these guys felt fine with going passive the entire game, much more than Jordan/Kobe....

Kobe is more like Jordan.... those were traditional SG's, uber pure scorers meaning a score-first mindset... even if they shot bad a in a game, they would still hoist shots, because that was their main job & priority...... the likelyhood of them scoring more points than Magic/Lebron/Bird or especially guys who were even more passing minded like Stockton/Kidd etc. is extremly high....

Whatever the case may be, Jordan is a better player than Lebron was... so i dont understand why you target & try to degrade Lebron so much? Why the insecurity 3ball? What is there to be insecure about?

More like you hate seeing your boy getting exposed as an overrated statpadder. Coz history has proven that players with the same style as lebron(robertson, iverson, rose) rack up MVPs yet couldnt deliver result. Even rookie magic impacts better than him. Even kobe won the same with lesser players. Yet we have idiots overrating him to be on the same level as jordan.

[3ball]

28 ppg with 9 assists (up to 55 points on the boxscore)
41 ppg with 5 assists (up to 55 points on the boxscore)


your example assumes assists are worth 3 points, but they aren't - 73% of all shots taken are 2-pointers, so most assists are 2 points.

also, Lebron didn't get anywhere near 9 APG and never has.

Infact, Lebron has 173 assists in 27 Finals games, for a 6.41 career Finals assist average.

At no point in his Finals career, has he come anywhere near a 9 APG average.

as for Jordan, he has 211 assists in 35 Finals games, for a 6.02 career Finals assist average.

however, unlike Lebron, Jordan does what it takes to win, so naturally, he HAS averaged those 9+ assists you wish Lebron had in your example - see 1991 Finals (11 APG).

btw, a lower scoring approach results in a higher reliance on teammates to make shots to win games.. consequently, the star player has less personal control over the outcome of the game - this is a drawback that you did not mention..

otoh, jordan's high scoring approach results in superior clutch and the star player having greater responsibility to personally determine the team's destiny - the star player IS the one responsible to make the Ray Allen Finals shot, the Jordan Finals shot, etc, etc.

[Roundball_Rock]

Jordan

3ball, answer his question:


Whatever the case may be, Jordan is a better player than Lebron was... so i dont understand why you target & try to degrade Lebron so much? Why the insecurity 3ball? What is there to be insecure about?

We all accept MJ as our GOAT and savior. Why are you insecure about MJ? Do you fear him losing his public GOAT status in a few years?

[OldSchoolBBall]

Who's to say the other Bulls wouldn't have scored more?

Considering that Pippen was at an abysmal 46% TS for the series, I don't think 3Ball's supposition that every ounce of MJ's scoring was needed in this series is an incorrect one. Was Pippen gonna average 5 more ppg somehow? And if he did, was his TS% gonna be like 38%? Grant was also at sub-55% TS despite averaging just 11 ppg and being an afterthought for the defense (and being set up for easy buckets by Pippen and Jordan all series). No, they needed Jordan that series and he delivered.

[Elosha]

Considering that Pippen was at an abysmal 46% TS for the series, I don't think 3Ball's supposition that every ounce of MJ's scoring was needed in this series is an incorrect one. Was Pippen gonna average 5 more ppg somehow? And if he did, was his TS% gonna be like 38%? Grant was also at sub-55% TS despite averaging just 11 ppg and being an afterthought for the defense (and being set up for easy buckets by Pippen and Jordan all series). No, they needed Jordan that series and he delivered.

Well to be fair to Horace Grant, he actually shot and scored very well in the first 4 games of the Finals, and made it somewhat difficult for Barkley on both the offensive and defensive end of the floor. But then he disappeared in games 5 and 6 and hardly scored a point. BUT remember he had the game-winning assist to John Paxon for the go ahead three in game 6 and then the game saving block on Kevin Johnson's last second attempt to win the game. Reminds me of Chris Bosh in 2013 hardly scoring in game 5 of the Finals, but having the game saving rebound and assist to Ray Allen and then blocking a game winning shot by San Antonio (I think against Danny Green?). So scoring aside, you can't say that players like Grant and Bosh didn't make some huge contributions when it counted.

More to the point of this thread, I do believe Jordan's 41/8/6 Finals average was necessary. In games 2 through 5 he scored either in the 40's or 50's and scored over 30 in games 1 and 6. Despite that Phoenix won 2 out of 3 in Chicago and continued to surge. If the Bulls hadn't managed to take games 1 and 2 in Phoenix, it would have been questionable whether they could have fought the Suns off, especially in a game 7. But the fact of the matter is he did what was necessary to win. Anyone who thinks that simply distributing those shots to other Bulls players would have yielded the same results is sadly mistaken as to the mentality and playmaking abilities of players like Grant, Paxon, Armstrong, and yes even Pippen.

All of them were capable of hitting big shots like Paxon's series winning three against Phoenix and Armstrong's go ahead three pointer against NY in game 5 of the 1993 ECF, or Pippen's overall outstanding series against NY in 1993. But none of them, individually or combined, could consistently muster the sheer force of will and array of offensive skills to over and over again dominate a team like the Suns. Only Jordan alone was capable of that.

Now what does all of this have to do with Lebron James? Not much in my opinion. Could Lebron have handled the Suns the way Jordan did? Based on what I've seen of his playoff and Finals performance, I'd say no. He's not as capable or as willing a scorer as Jordan, and for what it's worth, he does at times shrink in big moments/big series. It's a huge weakness. But does that mean he's not one of the greatest players of all time who can still move up the rankings? Absolutely not.

[sdot_thadon]

jordan
:yaohappy:

[greymatter]

Good points but the 93' Suns were not an unbeatable juggernaut. They were taken to 7 games in the WCF by a Sonics team that had pre-prime Payton, 23 year old Kemp and Ricky Pierce as its best players. The same Suns core would then proceed to choke in the WCSF in both 94' and 95' (albeit with a diminished Barkley by that point). I do agree, though, that if MJ did not have a legendary Finals in 93' Chicago would have lost. Phoenix had a great series.

Right, SouthBeach. LeBron was almost a one man team in the Finals last year, especially for the last three games. :oldlol: at Bosh averaging only 5 boards.

Suns losing when up 3-1 was more a function of Barkley getting injured at the most inopportune times than choking. I forget which year was which, but he played on a pulled groin one year and through a shoulder injury where he had problems lifting his arm beyond shoulder height. Both of those injuries occurred during those series. Before those injuries, the Suns were crushing the Rockets. Barkley estimated that he was playing at around 70%.

His game wasn't diminished so much as his body.

[DatAsh]

Not necessarily. You can't make that generalisation. Moving the ball around more they could actually get better and cleaner shots and have a higher efg%.

Nah, watching the series they were doubling and even tripling Jordan, and the ball movement was actually pretty good. Jordan was finishing plays - with quite a few bailout shots - and wasn't really stopping the ball the way current perimeter superstars tend to do.

I had a brain-fart though, as I thought OP was talking about removing Jordan from the team. Simply going from 41 to 28 ppg, Bulls probably still win. Jordan was their best defender still(though Pippen was right there with him at that point) and contributed far more than just volume scoring. Team efficiency would fall a bit, but nothing major. Bulls still win handily imo.

[DatAsh]

My point is, a player does what a player does based on how the defense plays you, your decision making and your offensive mindset..... you take something away from a player and he finds another way to still make that same impact / accountability..... you force a guy like Jordan to take less shots that series and hence average 28 PPG (instead of 41 PPG) he will have just used those possessions instead for his teammates.... those -13 PPG went missing only for him individually, but didnt actually go missing for the team as he found other ways to get those points for his team with the help of his teammates....

28 ppg with 9 assists (up to 55 points on the boxscore)
41 ppg with 5 assists (up to 55 points on the boxscore)

Those possessions that could have been used to get 41 PPG were used for something else making his stats look different........ but he was still equally accountable for the teams boxscore and hence the outcome ended up the same.....

Magic averaged what, 19 ppg? But he averaged also 11 ppg.... so even if he averaged 0 PPG, by assists alone his team is producing 22-33 PPG........ Assists may not be as glorious & cool as Individual Scoring, but Assists does the same job.....

Assists are worth more like .2 to .7 points though, not 2-3.

[DatAsh]

One more thing, I hate comparing Lebron/Jordan this way, its kindof like comparing Rondo to Rose or CP3 to Westbrook or Rubio to JR Smith or Magic to Jordan or Bird to Jordan or Pippen to Drexler or Stockton to Reggie Miller....

Yes you can compare the accolades & impact.... but they had different games offensively.... different mindsets.... because they go about it differently doesnt mean the impact on the game is better than the other for the outcome of the game.... even though for some of these players that impact may have been greater....

Lebron is more like Magic/Bird rather than Jordan, guys who more often had the instincts of a point guard offensively & some of them had official role of a point-guard no matter what position they started in Magic/Lebron (called Point-Forward), the scoring ability they had was simply there, as great as it was it was not their #1 priority...... these guys felt fine with going passive the entire game, much more than Jordan/Kobe....

Kobe is more like Jordan.... those were traditional SG's, uber pure scorers meaning a score-first mindset... even if they shot bad a in a game, they would still hoist shots, because that was their main job & priority...... the likelyhood of them scoring more points than Magic/Lebron/Bird or especially guys who were even more passing minded like Stockton/Kidd etc. is extremly high....

Whatever the case may be, Jordan is a better player than Lebron was... so i dont understand why you target & try to degrade Lebron so much? Why the insecurity 3ball? What is there to be insecure about?

I agree with your last paragraph.

[Psileas]

I'm not going to make guesses about a specific number, but the total ppg, def/off ratings, etc, of 2 teams in a playoff series don't matter, as long as one team manages to get to 4 wins.
This was an all-time great performance, obviously, but in the end, the Bulls still lost 2 of them, and Jordan scored 40+ in both. One of these losses was a triple OT one, with Jordan having a bad 4th quarter. So, what changes if this game doesn't go to any OT's and Jordan scores significantly less points with the Bulls still losing? What changes if Jordan has a mediocre Game 5? Probably not much. Also, the Bulls were leading Game 1 up to the end of the 3rd Q, with Jordan having only like 17 points up to then and in the end, they won by 8, with Jordan finishing with a personal series-low of 31.

The Bulls did need his points in Games 2, 4, 6. These were all very close games that the Bulls won. But this doesn't necessarily translate into Jordan needing to average 41 for the Bulls to have won the series. What matters is the distribution of these points.

[sdot_thadon]

Assists are worth more like .2 to .7 points though, not 2-3.
Please explain?

[Smoke117]

Considering that Pippen was at an abysmal 46% TS for the series, I don't think 3Ball's supposition that every ounce of MJ's scoring was needed in this series is an incorrect one. Was Pippen gonna average 5 more ppg somehow? And if he did, was his TS% gonna be like 38%? Grant was also at sub-55% TS despite averaging just 11 ppg and being an afterthought for the defense (and being set up for easy buckets by Pippen and Jordan all series). No, they needed Jordan that series and he delivered.

YOU REALISE YOU IDIOT STUPID **** JORDAN STAN...that Pippen shot 35 shots in that triple OT game he was horrible in right? Why would you know that? It has nothing to with Jordan. He took 128 shots in that series...35 of them came in this ONE GAME that he shot 34%...that one game ruined his entire series efficiency wise you stupid bastard of Jordans loins.

[StrongLurk]

Jordan killed his father.
:eek:

[StrongLurk]

when has Lebron ever taken 33 FGA for you to know that?

ah yes, lebron fans - their guy doesn't match up in real life, so they have to go by pure conjecture... never facts.

the Heat lost by 14 PPG to the Spurs in 2014 Finals... if Lebron doubles his shot attempts from 17 to 33 like Jordan, and consequently averages 13 more PPG like Jordan (28 to 41), the Heat have a chance to keep up with the Spurs offense, just like the Bulls gave themselves a chance against the Suns.

btw, newsflash - having your SF play point guard impinges on the playmaking duties of the actual PG, and the SG too..

that's why jordan never played point guard (other than that one time (http://www.complex.com/sports/2014/01/michael-jordan-point-guard-in-1989-posted-triple-double-10-of-11-games))... it's just not an optimal way for a wing to play and won't result in the most wins - accordingly, jordan did not employ that style.. he wanted to win more than stat-pad - and he simply didn't give two bird shits about saving face like lebron.
.

Uhhh, 16 more shots to only score 13 more points...and at the much slower pace that the Heat vs Spurs played at? The Heat would've been destroyed EVEN WORSE.

[StrongLurk]

if you are a vastly inferior playoff and Finals performer as Lebron is, you are a vastly inferior player period.

playoffs and Finals performance is the only performance that matters because it represents a considerably higher level of competition.

Vastly inferior? I'll give it to you in the finals for Jordan>James clearly. But to say overall playoffs Jordan is VASTLY superior? Better yes, but come on why so insecure?

[OldSchoolBBall]

YOU REALISE YOU IDIOT STUPID **** JORDAN STAN...that Pippen shot 35 shots in that triple OT game he was horrible in right? Why would you know that? It has nothing to with Jordan. He took 128 shots in that series...35 of them came in this ONE GAME that he shot 34%...that one game ruined his entire series efficiency wise you stupid bastard of Jordans loins.

No, dickhead - even if we exclude game 3, Pippen was still at a terrible 49% TS for the series. That's not the person you want shouldering a larger offensive load.

By the way, if we're excluding their worst games in the series, Jordan was at 58% TS for the series on DOUBLE the volume Pippen had, 40.4 ppg vs. 20.2 ppg (to say nothing of being the focal point of the defense). LIKE I SAID, Jordan's scoring was needed that series, and he delivered. Dickhead.

[Roundball_Rock]

YOU REALISE YOU IDIOT STUPID **** JORDAN STAN...that Pippen shot 35 shots in that triple OT game he was horrible in right? Why would you know that? It has nothing to with Jordan. He took 128 shots in that series...35 of them came in this ONE GAME that he shot 34%...that one game ruined his entire series efficiency wise you stupid bastard of Jordans loins.

:applause:

Pippen also averaged 9 rebounds and 8 assists to go along with his 21 ppg--almost a triple double for the entire Finals (Pippen came close to averaging a triple double in three of his six Finals :bowdown: )--along with providing his legendary defense to boot.

[Straight_Ballin]

Jordan killed his father.

Lebron's mom gave me a hummer. A shirt I purchased at a store in Cleveland is proof of this.

[OldSchoolBBall]

:applause:

Pippen also averaged 9 rebounds and 8 assists to go along with his 21 ppg--almost a triple double for the entire Finals (Pippen came close to averaging a triple double in three of his six Finals :bowdown: )--along with providing his legendary defense to boot.

7.7 assists is not "almost a triple double." :oldlol: Neither is 6.6 apg in the '91 Finals.

[JohnnySic]

That Suns team was like the '95 Magic; they were popular and have a long shelf life in fan's memories because they were a "fun" team, but they were not an all time great team.

The Sonics in '93 would have given the Bulls a real fight as well. They were better than the '96 Sonics that made the finals in a diluted league.

[LBJFTW]

Jordan have to ave 40 PPG to win it unlike the teams of today that are stacked so the superstar only has to ave 28ppg to win it.

[SouBeachTalents]

Jordan have to ave 40 PPG to win it unlike the teams of today that are stacked so the superstar only has to ave 28ppg to win it.

'94 Rockets, '03 Spurs, and 2011 Mavs must have been stacked as well, as Hakeem, Duncan, and Dirk all averaged under 28 ppg in the Finals and still won

[3ball]

'94 Rockets, '03 Spurs, and 2011 Mavs must have been stacked as well, as Hakeem, Duncan, and Dirk all averaged under 28 ppg in the Finals and still won


What part of the stats below do you not understand?.. every ounce of Jordan's 41 PPG was needed:


Team Stats - 1993 Finals

Bulls PPG: 106.7
Suns PPG: 106.7

Bulls ORtg: 113.0
Suns ORtg: 113.0

[supermechasonic]

Jordan is the goat. No need for some of his fans, by no means all, to be insecure.

[DatAsh]

Please explain?

In terms of point value. I've seen estimates ranging from .16 to .66. They're trying to measure how much an assist increases the probability of scoring in order to get a value of one assist in terms of points. Almost always, 1 point is more valuable than 1 assist.

Saying Jordan's assists are worth 2 to 3 points is equivalent to saying that Jordan's teammates had a 0% chance of scoring unassisted, which is obviously not true.

[3ball]

But to say overall playoffs Jordan is VASTLY superior? Better yes, but come on why so insecure?


I'm sorry bro, but the stats prove MJ was "vastly" superior in the playoffs:


Playoff Averages Thru 29 Years Old:

JORDAN: 35 PPG / 7 APG / 50% FG / 35.2% 3 PT
LEBRON: 28 PPG / 6 APG / 48% FG / 33.3% 3 PT

Source: basketball-reference.com

[3ball]

Did Lebron really think he'd be able to 3-peat by playing it safe?

That it would be easy?

How naive.. He blew his only shot at a 3-peat and greatness playing it safe

:yaohappy: