Lebron is no longer consensus best player....

[9erempiree]

Looks to me from other thread that he is no longer the best in the eyes of ISH.

What happened?

[navy]

Got old.

[9erempiree]

Got old.

well, that was fast.

Shortest reign of best player for someone consider an all time great.

[Smoke117]

well, that was fast.

Shortest reign of best player for someone consider an all time great.

:kobe:

At least he had a reign...

[Lebronxrings]

only trolls think he isn't the best.

[KirbyPls]

Looks to me from other thread that he is no longer the best in the eyes of ISH.

What happened?


The irony is, even if you're right, Bron's 2009-2014 run as the best player is, at bare minimum, at least three more years than your idol has ever been the best in the game. Must be tough knowing that Lebron on a 5-7 year, realistic run, is better than your idol ever was.

To partially quote a great on ISH:

Rent free, and have an L. :cheers:

[9erempiree]

The only argument people had a couple of years ago was his stats.

He no longer has his stats.

What's the argument now?

[KirbyPls]

:kobe:

^^^ At least he had a reign...

Ether.

[navy]

:kobe:

^^^ At least he had a reign...
:lebronamazed:

[Alamо]

only trolls think he isn't the best.


So you don't think he's the best?

[9erempiree]

To partially quote a great on ISH:

Rent free, ...... :cheers:

Thanks for using a quote I brought over to ISH from my ESPN NBA General days...

[KirbyPls]

So you don't think he's the best?

Stop it Moe.

[KirbyPls]

Thanks for using a quote I brought over to ISH from my ESPN NBA General days...

You want a cookie? Don't you have a knee replacement to handle Budadiii?

[3peated]

he's still the best, lol.

[Budadiiii]

Wade and Dirk were better in 2011 and Durant has been better since 2012.

[9erempiree]

Stats are always mentioned when discussing Lebron as the best and this year he has been lackluster, so what's the argument.

Nobody brings up MJ, Kobe, Bird, Magic or Kareem's stats but with Lebron his stats is forced on basketball purists.

[G0ATbe]

He never was.

[9erempiree]

He never was.

I never thought so either.

[Budadiiii]

He never was.
Never passed the eye test so now that his stats are garbage he really has no argument at all.

[305Baller]

He's the best.

[sportjames23]

:kobe:

At least he had a reign...


Ouch.

[KirbyPls]

Wade and Dirk were better in 2011 and Durant has been better since 2012.

Losing in the finals and crying on his mum's shoulder =/= better, especially when Russ became better before he got injured in 2013.

KD never had the throne. :roll: :lol :roll:

[Budadiiii]

He's the best.
He has no argument.

[KirbyPls]

Stats are always mentioned when discussing Lebron as the best and this year he has been lackluster, so what's the argument.

Nobody brings up MJ, Kobe, Bird, Magic or Kareem's stats but with Lebron his stats is forced on basketball purists.

Lebron > Kobe all-time; sober up, handle it, keep a positive outlook on life and try not to hate too many people who don't look or think like you.

[Budadiiii]

Losing in the finals and crying on his mum's shoulder =/= better, especially when Russ became better before he got injured in 2013.

KD never had the throne. :roll: :lol :roll:
Crying out of passion for the game doesn't effect his standing as the best player, if anything it strengthens it.

Would you rather see a guy cry, because he cares so much?

Or quit on his team and walk off the court with no emotion, rip off his jersey, and proceed to ditch his home state and franchise because he couldn't win with a heavily favored 60+ winning team?

LeBron has no heart. He was never considered the best player.

[Roundball_Rock]

well, that was fast.

Shortest reign of best player for someone consider an all time great.

:coleman:

LeBron was considered by most to be the best player from 2009-2014. That is a period of 6 seasons. Plus he had a case in 2008 and has a case in 2015. As a comparison:

Hakeem's reign lasted 2 years (1994 and 1995).
Kobe's reign lasted 3 years (2006-2008).
Duncan's reign lasted 3 years (2003-2005) and some would argue KG over him for 04'.
Magic's reign was probably 2 years (1987 and 1988) and some would argue MJ over him for 88'.
Shaq's reign lasted 4 years (1999-2002) and some would argue Shaq over MJ for 98' as well.
Bird's reign lasted 3 years (1984-1986) and some would argue for Bird as #1 in a few other as seasons as well.

The bottom line is only Kareem (1971-1980), Jordan (1989-1993, 1996-1998), and Wilt had longer reigns than LeBron as the league's best player.

[KirbyPls]

:coleman:

LeBron was considered by most to be the best player from 2009-2014. He had a case in 2008 and has a case in 2015. As a comparison:

Hakeem's reign lasted 2 years (1994 and 1995).
Kobe's reign lasted 3 years (2006-2008).
Duncan's reign lasted 3 years (2003-2005) and some would argue KG over him for 04'.
Magic's reign was probably 2 years (1987 and 1988) and some would argue MJ over him for 88'.
Shaq's reign lasted 4 years (1999-2002) and some would argue Shaq over MJ for 98' as well.
Bird's reign lasted 3 years (1984-1986) and some would argue for Bird as #1 in a few other as seasons as well.

Only Kareem (1971-1980), Jordan (1989-1993, 1996-1998), and Wilt had longer reigns than LeBron as the league's best player.


Is that rat poison complementary? :applause:

[Velocirap31]

Don't you guys get tired of this routine?

[eSOL]

:coleman:

LeBron was considered by most to be the best player from 2009-2014. That is a period of 6 seasons. Plus he had a case in 2008 and has a case in 2015. As a comparison:

Hakeem's reign lasted 2 years (1994 and 1995).
Kobe's reign lasted 3 years (2006-2008).
Duncan's reign lasted 3 years (2003-2005) and some would argue KG over him for 04'.
Magic's reign was probably 2 years (1987 and 1988) and some would argue MJ over him for 88'.
Shaq's reign lasted 4 years (1999-2002) and some would argue Shaq over MJ for 98' as well.
Bird's reign lasted 3 years (1984-1986) and some would argue for Bird as #1 in a few other as seasons as well.

The bottom line is only Kareem (1971-1980), Jordan (1989-1993, 1996-1998), and Wilt had longer reigns than LeBron as the league's best player.


:bowdown:

[Budadiiii]

:coleman:

LeBron was considered by most to be the best player from 2009-2014. That is a period of 6 seasons. Plus he had a case in 2008 and has a case in 2015. As a comparison:

Hakeem's reign lasted 2 years (1994 and 1995).
Kobe's reign lasted 3 years (2006-2008).
Duncan's reign lasted 3 years (2003-2005) and some would argue KG over him for 04'.
Magic's reign was probably 2 years (1987 and 1988) and some would argue MJ over him for 88'.
Shaq's reign lasted 4 years (1999-2002) and some would argue Shaq over MJ for 98' as well.
Bird's reign lasted 3 years (1984-1986) and some would argue for Bird as #1 in a few other as seasons as well.

The bottom line is only Kareem (1971-1980), Jordan (1989-1993, 1996-1998), and Wilt had longer reigns than LeBron as the league's best player.
Based on what? Stats?

How was he the best from 2008-2011 if he wasn't winning with favored teams? Stats?

His stats are trash compared to other guys now so how does he have a case in 2015? Team accomplishments from 2 years ago?

You idiots can't even stay consistent. He has no argument.

[Kvnzhangyay]

:coleman:

LeBron was considered by most to be the best player from 2009-2014. That is a period of 6 seasons. Plus he had a case in 2008 and has a case in 2015. As a comparison:

Hakeem's reign lasted 2 years (1994 and 1995).
Kobe's reign lasted 3 years (2006-2008).
Duncan's reign lasted 3 years (2003-2005) and some would argue KG over him for 04'.
Magic's reign was probably 2 years (1987 and 1988) and some would argue MJ over him for 88'.
Shaq's reign lasted 4 years (1999-2002) and some would argue Shaq over MJ for 98' as well.
Bird's reign lasted 3 years (1984-1986) and some would argue for Bird as #1 in a few other as seasons as well.

The bottom line is only Kareem (1971-1980), Jordan (1989-1993, 1996-1998), and Wilt had longer reigns than LeBron as the league's best player.

Wrecked

[9erempiree]

Don't you guys get tired of this routine?

Do you not know who I am.

[9erempiree]

:coleman:

LeBron was considered by most to be the best player from 2009-2014. That is a period of 6 seasons. Plus he had a case in 2008 and has a case in 2015. As a comparison:

Hakeem's reign lasted 2 years (1994 and 1995).
Kobe's reign lasted 3 years (2006-2008).
Duncan's reign lasted 3 years (2003-2005) and some would argue KG over him for 04'.
Magic's reign was probably 2 years (1987 and 1988) and some would argue MJ over him for 88'.
Shaq's reign lasted 4 years (1999-2002) and some would argue Shaq over MJ for 98' as well.
Bird's reign lasted 3 years (1984-1986) and some would argue for Bird as #1 in a few other as seasons as well.

The bottom line is only Kareem (1971-1980), Jordan (1989-1993, 1996-1998), and Wilt had longer reigns than LeBron as the league's best player.

Opinion.

[Kvnzhangyay]

Opinion.

And his opinion is worth more than yours because he actually backs it up :confusedshrug:

[KirbyPls]

Wrecked


Tough too deal with ether like that. :eek:

[Budadiiii]

And his opinion is worth more than yours because he actually backs it up :confusedshrug:
He backs it up with: "most people consider...."

Already lost. Nobody gives a shit about what the majority of casual fans think. They sit and watch ESPN all day and let the media make their opinion for them.

LeBron ball doesn't win shit without superstar teammates and great coaching in a weak conference. Thats fact. He has shitty competition and stacked teams for years.

[9erempiree]

And his opinion is worth more than yours because he actually backs it up :confusedshrug:

I already said Lebron is not the best due to his stats. There is really no point in bringing up lackluster stats.

[ShawkFactory]

Lebron haters embarrassing themselves :lol

[KirbyPls]

I already said Lebron is not the best due to his stats. There is really no point in bringing up lackluster stats.

Chill Simon, the battle is lost.

[ShawkFactory]

Lebron stans embarrassing themselves :lol

[Roundball_Rock]

And his opinion is worth more than yours because he actually backs it up :confusedshrug:

It is interesting. The OP talks about "consensus" and now when it is pointed out LeBron was considered to be the best player in the league for a longer period than anyone not named Kareem, Michael, or Wilt the standard shifts to "what I think." Every team in the league would have easily traded their best player for LeBron straight up from 2009-2014. LeBron's reign was considerably longer than most of the top 10 all-time. Hakeem would not have even had one had it not been for MJ's retirement.

[Budadiiii]

Lebron haters embarrassing themselves :lol
What argument does LeBron have now that his stats don't measure up? I made a thread about this the other day.

LeBron fans are huge hypocrites. They're now using the "eye test" and using the ring argument when they shunned it just a few years ago.

[ShawkFactory]

What argument does LeBron have now that his stats don't measure up? I made a thread about this the other day.

LeBron fans are huge hypocrites. They're now using the "eye test" and using the ring argument when they shunned it just a few years ago.
Why would you waste your time arguing about Lebron on this site? I'm not going to thats for damn sure. Unless the thread actually has something worth while to talk about.

[Budadiiii]

It is interesting. The OP talks about "consensus" and now when it is pointed out LeBron was considered to be the best player in the league for a longer period than anyone not named Kareem, Michael, or Wilt the standard shifts to "what I think." Every team in the league would have easily traded their best player for LeBron straight up from 2009-2014.
:facepalm

Do you know what consensus means?

Hell, if Durant was healthy he would be closer than LeBron to being the consensus best.

Regardless of that, LeBron isn't the consensus best. That would mean almost everyone agrees. Consensus is Durant's MVP last year.

[Kingwillball]

Clearly still the best and been best since at least 2009 arguably longer.

Nothing to see here except clear trolling..

[Cold soul]

Lebron is not best player in the league anymore but still elite top 3.

[Roundball_Rock]

:facepalm

Do you know what consensus means?

Yes. LeBron no longer is the consensus best; he was for a longer period than Bird, Magic, Kobe, Duncan, Hakeem or Shaq were, though. That is what I responded to, not that he remains the consensus best.

Even when there is a "consensus" there will remain a minority of varying sizes that does not concur. That is what I mentioned in my original post in this thread when I pointed out instances where another player had a case. There were years where there was a solid minority and a solid case for arguing another player as the best. That is in contrast to periods where it was definitively clear who the best player was, i.e. Shaq during his peak years.

If you look solely at years where a player was the undisputed best player LeBron fares even better relative to most top 10 all-time players. Magic had MJ, Bird as rivals for the throne. Bird had Magic. Shaq had Duncan. Kobe had LeBron. Hakeem had Robinson. LeBron had no serious rival from 2010-2013. In 2009 Kobe and Wade had weak cases and in 2014 Durant did but from 2010-2013 LeBron was the undisputed best player.

[Kingwillball]

Lebron is not best player in the league anymore but still elite top 3.

Who is better harden now curry nope ,KD nope.. This is just silly lebron is clearly and easily the best player..

[kennethgriffin]

:coleman:

LeBron was considered by most to be the best player from 2009-2014. That is a period of 6 seasons. Plus he had a case in 2008 and has a case in 2015. As a comparison:

Hakeem's reign lasted 2 years (1994 and 1995).
Kobe's reign lasted 3 years (2006-2008).
Duncan's reign lasted 3 years (2003-2005) and some would argue KG over him for 04'.
Magic's reign was probably 2 years (1987 and 1988) and some would argue MJ over him for 88'.
Shaq's reign lasted 4 years (1999-2002) and some would argue Shaq over MJ for 98' as well.
Bird's reign lasted 3 years (1984-1986) and some would argue for Bird as #1 in a few other as seasons as well.

The bottom line is only Kareem (1971-1980), Jordan (1989-1993, 1996-1998), and Wilt had longer reigns than LeBron as the league's best player.































kobe was the best player from 2001 to 2010


2001 - 29/7/6 playoffs ( nba champion as teams 2A scorer, 1A playmaker, 1A defender )
2002 - 27/6/5 playoffs ( nba champion as team 2A scorer, 1A playmaker, 1A defender )
2003 - 30/6/5 season ( 9 straight 40 point games, 2 months averaging 40ppg, torn shoulder/knee kept him from the title )
2004 - still almost managed 25ppg while having to share with shaq/malone/payton ( surely would have been another 30ppg season given the touches )
2005 - retooling year/injured
2006 - 81 point game, 35/5/5 average, multiple months at 40ppg ( took the worst lineup in nba history to the playoffs )
2007 - 4 straight 50+ games, multiple 60+ games, 33/6/5 average
2008 - league mvp, nba finals ( would be nba champ if bynum were healthy )
2009 - finals mvp, nba champion ( dominated playoffs )
2010 - finals mvp, nba champion ( dominated playoffs, especially WCF )


2011 was the first sign of weakness from wear and tear

from 2001 till 2010 nobody in the nba was more talented, more polished, more dominant, more skilled, more dangerous, more consistantly great


nobody


kobes run was a full decade

[supermechasonic]

Whose opinion is to be regarded as "consensus"?

[Kingwillball]

:bowdown:
kobe was the best player from 2001 to 2010


2001 - 29/7/6 playoffs ( nba champion as teams 2A scorer, 1A playmaker, 1A defender )
2002 - 27/6/5 playoffs ( nba champion as team 2A scorer, 1A playmaker, 1A defender )
2003 - 30/6/5 season ( 9 straight 40 point games, 2 months averaging 40ppg, torn shoulder/knee kept him from the title )
2004 - still almost managed 25ppg while having to share with shaq/malone/payton ( surely would have been another 30ppg season given the touches )
2005 - retooling year/injured
2006 - 81 point game, 35/5/5 average, multiple months at 40ppg ( took the worst lineup in nba history to the playoffs )
2007 - 4 straight 50+ games, multiple 60+ games, 33/6/5 average
2008 - league mvp, nba finals ( would be nba champ if bynum were healthy )
2009 - finals mvp, nba champion ( dominated playoffs )
2010 - finals mvp, nba champion ( dominated playoffs, especially WCF )


2011 was the first sign of weakness from wear and tear

from 2001 till 2010 nobody in the nba was more talented, more polished, more dominant, more skilled, more dangerous, more consistantly great


nobody


kobes run was a full decade

So no to crack it kills brain cells..

[ShawkFactory]

kobe was the best player from 2001 to 2010


2001 - 29/7/6 playoffs ( nba champion as teams 2A scorer, 1A playmaker, 1A defender )
2002 - 27/6/5 playoffs ( nba champion as team 2A scorer, 1A playmaker, 1A defender )
2003 - 30/6/5 season ( 9 straight 40 point games, 2 months averaging 40ppg, torn shoulder/knee kept him from the title )
2004 - still almost managed 25ppg while having to share with shaq/malone/payton ( surely would have been another 30ppg season given the touches )
2005 - retooling year/injured
2006 - 81 point game, 35/5/5 average, multiple months at 40ppg ( took the worst lineup in nba history to the playoffs )
2007 - 4 straight 50+ games, multiple 60+ games, 33/6/5 average
2008 - league mvp, nba finals ( would be nba champ if bynum were healthy )
2009 - finals mvp, nba champion ( dominated playoffs )
2010 - finals mvp, nba champion ( dominated playoffs, especially WCF )


2011 was the first sign of weakness from wear and tear

from 2001 till 2010 nobody in the nba was more talented, more polished, more dominant, more skilled, more dangerous, more consistantly great


nobody


kobes run was a full decade
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :

I wish I could do more of those

[Prime_Shaq]

He was the best in 2010-2014. He looks a step slower now but we'll see come playoff time, there's were great players separate themselves anyway.

[Budadiiii]

Yes. LeBron no longer is the consensus best; he was for a longer period than Bird, Magic, Kobe, Duncan, Hakeem or Shaq were, though. That is what I responded to, not that he remains the consensus best.

Even when there is a "consensus" there will remain a minority of varying sizes that does not concur. That is what I mentioned in my original post in this thread when I pointed out instances where another player had a case. There were years where there was a solid minority and a solid case for arguing another player as the best. That is in contrast to periods where it was definitively clear who the best player was, i.e. Shaq during his peak years.

If you look solely at years where a player was the undisputed best player LeBron fares even better relative to most top 10 all-time players. Magic had MJ, Bird as rivals for the throne. Bird had Magic. Shaq had Duncan. Kobe had LeBron. Hakeem had Robinson. LeBron had no serious rival from 2010-2013. In 2009 Kobe and Wade had weak cases and in 2014 Durant did but from 2010-2013 LeBron was the undisputed best player.
Sorry, I didn't read the rest of your post.

And um, LeBron wasn't the consensus best in 2011, especially after the choke job in the finals.

The only arguable year he was consensus best was 2012-2013, when his stacked team peaked.

Where are you getting your information? There were many people in 2010 who still thought Kobe was the best. In no way was LeBron the consensus best.

So at most he was the consensus best for two seasons, which was OP's point..... VERY short reign.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Yes. LeBron no longer is the consensus best; he was for a longer period than Bird, Magic, Kobe, Duncan, Hakeem or Shaq were, though. That is what I responded to, not that he remains the consensus best.

LeBron wasn't the consensus in either 2009 or 2010. Hell I remember the Nike puppet commercials pitting these he and Kobe against each other. :oldlol:

From the modern era, save for Mike, Shaq probably has the best case for longest consensus tenure (1999-2002). You could argue KD was better than LeBron last year, and that LeBron was only FOR SURE the leagues best player from 2011-2013.

[kennethgriffin]

heres the thing

a) kobe was on an SI cover in 2001 saying he was the best player

b) shaq was quoted saying kobe in 2001 was already the best player

c) kobe averaged 33ppg up until the 2001 finals. by far the mvp of the team ( defeating the best competition in the nba )



so how does this man reach obviously the highest level... then a decade later caps it off in similar fashion and claims another title dominating the best of the best... and has the career he did inbetween.. not be the obvious choice of best player in the game


maybe he didnt have the best season every year. but overall for that span of 10 years he was the best. it was kobes league

[masonanddixon]

He was never the best player in the NBA. Except maybe in 2012-2013

[ShawkFactory]

heres the thing

a) kobe was on an SI cover in 2001 saying he was the best player

b) shaq was quoted saying kobe in 2001 was already the best player

c) kobe averaged 33ppg up until the 2001 finals. by far the mvp of the team ( defeating the best competition in the nba )



so how does this man reach obviously the highest level... then a decade later caps it off in similar fashion and claims another title dominating the best of the best... and has the career he did inbetween.. not be the obvious choice of best player in the game


maybe he didnt have the best season every year. but overall for that span of 10 years he was the best. it was kobes league
And when the Heat were in the middle of their 27 game win streak people were very seriously comparing him to Jordan. Charles Barkley said he never thought he'd see someone dominate the entire game the way Michael did until he saw Lebron.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

heres the thing

a) kobe was on an SI cover in 2001 saying he was the best player

b) shaq was quoted saying kobe in 2001 was already the best player

c) kobe averaged 33ppg up until the 2001 finals. by far the mvp of the team ( defeating the best competition in the nba )



so how does this man reach obviously the highest level... then a decade later caps it off in similar fashion and claims another title dominating the best of the best... and has the career he did inbetween.. not be the obvious choice of best player in the game


maybe he didnt have the best season every year. but overall for that span of 10 years he was the best. it was kobes league

In Kobe's recent interview with Ahmad Rashad, he said Shaq was "the guy", and that nobody could contain him. Trust some of us who actually watched then. Shaq was widely regarded as the best player in the game. It was never an argument either (whether Kobe was close is another discussion).

[Roundball_Rock]

LeBron wasn't the consensus in either 2009 or 2010. Hell I remember the Nike puppet commercials pitting these 2 against each other. :oldlol:

Of the modern era, aside from Jordan, Shaq probably has the best case for longest consensus tenure. 1999-2002. You could argue KD was better than LeBron last year, and that LeBron was only FOR SURE the leagues best player from 2011-2013.

A lot of that was hype. Wade was closer to Kobe than Kobe was to LeBron in 2009 and 2010. LeBron was viewed as the best by most those years. You are right, though, that he was the undisputed best for a shorter period.

Let's apply the "undisputed" best player standard and compare LeBron's reign to certain other top 10 all-time players, though. Let's exclude 2010 for LeBron for argument's sake.

LeBron 2011-2013 (3 years)
Kobe 2006-2007 (2 years)
Hakeem 0 years (Robinson had a case and a strong group of people who had him as #1 both years)
Bird 1984-1986 (3 years)
Duncan 2003, 2005 (2 years since KG had a strong case in 04')
Magic 1987 (Jordan had a strong case in 88')
Shaq 1999-2002 (4 years)

So of these players LeBron, if you exclude 2010 (Kobe had no real case imo--it was like Magic vs. MJ in 1989 and 1990--the younger player was superior but some argued for the older legend due to the aura of being a "winner" and "proven"), LeBron had a longer reign than Duncan, Magic, Kobe, and Hakeem (who had no reign by this stricter standard) and was equal to Bird and trails only Shaq. If you give LeBron 2010 then he ties Shaq.

How is this an unusually short reign relative to other top 10-11 all-time players? That is the assertion I disputed.

[SamuraiSWISH]

LeBron was for sure the best in 2012, and 2013. No debates to be had elsewhere. 2009 saw cases from Wade, and Kobe. 2010 saw cases from Kobe. 2011 was just a very odd year given the circumstances. In my heart of hearts, I'd still consider Bron the best last season and this year. But obviously it is up for debates.

[kennethgriffin]

In Kobe's recent interview with Ahmad Rashad, he said Shaq was "the guy", and that nobody could contain him. Trust some of us who actually watched then. Shaq was widely regarded as the best player in the game. It was never an argument either (whether Kobe was close is another discussion).

i stick by what i saw. the real mvp is the guy whos the best when it matters most


the nba finals were the 4th most important matchup of the playoffs for LA during 2001 and 2002


shaq just beasted against crap centers like tod machouwolawwhh or whatever his name is

[Prime_Shaq]

kobe was the best player from 2001 to 2010


2001 - 29/7/6 playoffs ( nba champion as teams 2A scorer, 1A playmaker, 1A defender )
2002 - 27/6/5 playoffs ( nba champion as team 2A scorer, 1A playmaker, 1A defender )
2003 - 30/6/5 season ( 9 straight 40 point games, 2 months averaging 40ppg, torn shoulder/knee kept him from the title )
2004 - still almost managed 25ppg while having to share with shaq/malone/payton ( surely would have been another 30ppg season given the touches )
2005 - retooling year/injured
2006 - 81 point game, 35/5/5 average, multiple months at 40ppg ( took the worst lineup in nba history to the playoffs )
2007 - 4 straight 50+ games, multiple 60+ games, 33/6/5 average
2008 - league mvp, nba finals ( would be nba champ if bynum were healthy )
2009 - finals mvp, nba champion ( dominated playoffs )
2010 - finals mvp, nba champion ( dominated playoffs, especially WCF )


2011 was the first sign of weakness from wear and tear

from 2001 till 2010 nobody in the nba was more talented, more polished, more dominant, more skilled, more dangerous, more consistantly great


nobody


kobes run was a full decade
1999 - Shaq
2000 - Shaq
2001 - Shaq
2002 - Shaq
2003 - Duncan/Shaq
2004 - KG/Shaq
2005 - Shaq
2006 - Kobe
2007 - Kobe
2008 - Kobe
2009 - D-Wade
2010 - LeBron
2011 - LeBron/Dwight
2012 - LeBron
2013 - LeBron
2014 - LeBron/Durant
2015 - TBD

Final Count
Shaq - 7
LeBron - 5 (Possibly 6)
Kobe - 3

All-Time
Shaq > Kobe > LeBron (For now, LeBron has plenty of time to catch up)

[SugarHill]

kobe was the best player from 2001 to 2010


2001 - 29/7/6 playoffs ( nba champion as teams 2A scorer, 1A playmaker, 1A defender )
2002 - 27/6/5 playoffs ( nba champion as team 2A scorer, 1A playmaker, 1A defender )
2003 - 30/6/5 season ( 9 straight 40 point games, 2 months averaging 40ppg, torn shoulder/knee kept him from the title )
2004 - still almost managed 25ppg while having to share with shaq/malone/payton ( surely would have been another 30ppg season given the touches )
2005 - retooling year/injured
2006 - 81 point game, 35/5/5 average, multiple months at 40ppg ( took the worst lineup in nba history to the playoffs )
2007 - 4 straight 50+ games, multiple 60+ games, 33/6/5 average
2008 - league mvp, nba finals ( would be nba champ if bynum were healthy )
2009 - finals mvp, nba champion ( dominated playoffs )
2010 - finals mvp, nba champion ( dominated playoffs, especially WCF )


2011 was the first sign of weakness from wear and tear

from 2001 till 2010 nobody in the nba was more talented, more polished, more dominant, more skilled, more dangerous, more consistantly great


nobody


kobes run was a full decade
:roll: :roll: :roll:

[hahaitme]

heres the thing

a) kobe was on an SI cover in 2001 saying he was the best player

b) shaq was quoted saying kobe in 2001 was already the best player

c) kobe averaged 33ppg up until the 2001 finals. by far the mvp of the team ( defeating the best competition in the nba )



so how does this man reach obviously the highest level... then a decade later caps it off in similar fashion and claims another title dominating the best of the best... and has the career he did inbetween.. not be the obvious choice of best player in the game


maybe he didnt have the best season every year. but overall for that span of 10 years he was the best. it was kobes league

If anyone ever doubted the fact that this guy was a troll, here's the proof ladies and gents.

[SugarHill]

A lot of that was hype. Wade was closer to Kobe than Kobe was to LeBron in 2009 and 2010. LeBron was viewed as the best by most those years. You are right, though, that he was the undisputed best for a shorter period.

Let's apply the "undisputed" best player standard and compare LeBron's reign to certain other top 10 all-time players, though. Let's exclude 2010 for LeBron for argument's sake.

LeBron 2011-2013 (3 years)
Kobe 2006-2007 (2 years)
Hakeem 0 years (Robinson had a case and a strong group of people who had him as #1 both years)
Bird 1984-1986 (3 years)
Duncan 2003, 2005 (2 years since KG had a strong case in 04')
Magic 1987 (Jordan had a strong case in 88')
Shaq 1999-2002 (4 years)

So of these players LeBron, if you exclude 2010 (Kobe had no real case imo--it was like Magic vs. MJ in 1989 and 1990--the younger player was superior but some argued for the older legend due to the aura of being a "winner" and "proven"), LeBron had a longer reign than Duncan, Magic, Kobe, and Hakeem (who had no reign by this stricter standard) and was equal to Bird and trails only Shaq. If you give LeBron 2010 then he ties Shaq.

How is this an unusually short reign relative to other top 10-11 all-time players? That is the assertion I disputed.

How can Hakeem not be undisputed best when he was MVP, Finals MVP, DPoTY all in the same damn year? :facepalm :rolleyes:

and 2011? A lot of people dispute LeBron being the best in 2011. What are you talking about? The audacity to say it's not disputed in 2011 but disputed for Hakeem is fvcking asinine

[ShawkFactory]

1999 - Shaq
2000 - Shaq
2001 - Shaq
2002 - Shaq
2003 - Duncan/Shaq
2004 - KG/Shaq
2005 - Shaq
2006 - Kobe
2007 - Kobe
2008 - Kobe
2009 - D-Wade
2010 - LeBron
2011 - LeBron/Dwight
2012 - LeBron
2013 - LeBron
2014 - LeBron/Durant
2015 - TBD

Final Count
Shaq - 7
LeBron - 5 (Possibly 6)
Kobe - 3

All-Time
Shaq > Kobe > LeBron (For now, LeBron has plenty of time to catch up)
Duncan > Shaq in 2003/2005 and Garnett > in 2004.

[Roundball_Rock]

How can Hakeem not be undisputed best when he was MVP, Finals MVP, DPoTY all in the same damn year? :facepalm :rolleyes:

Because in fact it was disputed by many at the time who had Robinson over him. What we are discussing here is perception, not who I or you had at #1. I think Hakeem was the best in both 94' and 95' but the fact is at the time in 1994 AND in 1995 many people had Robinson over Hakeem. Hakeem had a bigger group of people for him but Robinson had a sizable contingent. Hakeem vs. Robinson was closer in terms of public opinion than, say, LeBron versus Howard in 11' or LeBron versus Durant in 13'.

There was a legitimate debate between Hakeem and Robinson in 1994 and 1995. This, unfortunately, has been lost in the mists of time due to what happened in the 95' WCF.

[STATUTORY]

questionable if he was ever consensus best

[SugarHill]

1999 - Shaq
2000 - Shaq
2001 - Shaq
2002 - Shaq
2003 - Duncan
2004 - KG
2005 - Duncan
2006 - Kobe
2007 - Kobe
2008 - Kobe
2009 - LeBron/D-Wade
2010 - LeBron
2011 -
2012 - LeBron
2013 - LeBron
2014 - LeBron/Durant
2015 - TBD

Pretty much hit the nail on the head

[SugarHill]

Because in fact it was disputed by many at the time who had Robinson over him. What we are discussing here is perception, not who I or you had at #1. I think Hakeem was the best in both 94' and 95' but the fact is at the time in 1994 AND in 1995 many people had Robinson over Hakeem. Hakeem had a bigger group of people for him but Robinson had a sizable contingent. Hakeem vs. Robinson was closer in terms of public opinion than, say, LeBron versus Howard in 11' or LeBron versus Durant in 13'. Then there was a much smaller contingent for Pippen in 94' and Shaq in 95'. There was, though, a legitimate debate between Hakeem and Robinson in 1994 and 1995.

This is a silly argument then. I mean, how can LeBron be considered the best if a "very sizable contingent" consider Kobe better than him all the way up to 2013? :roll:

[Prime_Shaq]

Duncan > Shaq in 2003/2005 and Garnett > in 2004.
I did out their names there so its definitely disputable, although I think Shaq was better in 2005.

[Roundball_Rock]

This is a silly argument then. I mean, how can LeBron be considered the best if a "very sizable portion" consider Kobe better than him all the way up to 2013? :roll:

Kobe vs. LeBron stopped being a legitimate debate a few years ago; Robinson vs. Hakeem was the debate during those 2 years. If the issue is "consensus" best then Hakeem was not the "consensus" best those years. He was considered to be the best by most those years--but by that logic you have to expand LeBron's reign too. If the standard is "undisputed" best then, yes, LeBron's reign is shortened--as is that of pretty much every top 10 all-time player except for Shaq and Bird--but it also means Hakeem has no reign.

Kobe basically was out of the conversation by 2011. Howard was the chief rival to LeBron for the throne then.

[ShawkFactory]

I did out their names there so its definitely disputable, although I think Shaq was better in 2005.
I honestly don't think 03 is disputable. Duncan had the MVP regular season and then gave the Lakers the business in the playoffs. He was king.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Kobe vs. LeBron stopped being a legitimate debate a few years ago
A few? Time flies dude. It was legit from 2006 - 2009 as a debate. 2010 it ended, in 2011 LeBron pissed on it's grave. Kobe left his prime in 2010. James was in the thick of his by then.

[Heavincent]

Wardell Curry is.

[Prime_Shaq]

I honestly don't think 03 is disputable. Duncan had the MVP regular season and then gave the Lakers the business in the playoffs. He was king.
Well hard to argue what Duncan did to the Lakers in the playoffs that year :cry:

[SamuraiSWISH]

Wardell Curry is.
Stop. He's still not a better player than LeBron. Neither is Harden. Playoffs always make the cream rise to the top. I see your player standom has officially switched boats from Kobe to Steph Curry. It would be like me considering Rose to be an actual better player than: LeBron, Wade, Dwight, hell even Kobe in 2011. He was MVP, he wasn't a better player than those guys.

[Roundball_Rock]

Here is the MVP voting for 1994 and 1995:

1994: 1) Hakeem 889 (66), 2) Robinson 730 (24), 3) Pippen 390 (7).
1995: 1) Robinson 901 (73), 2) Shaq 605 (12), 3) Malone 532 (14). Hakeem was 5th

DPOY voting for 1994 and 1995:

1994: Hakeem 23, Robinson 22, Mutumbo 19, Pippen 11, Payton 9.
1995: Mutumbo 45, Pippen 16, Hakeem 13, Robinson 12, Rodman 11.

All-NBA teams for center:

1994: Hakeem 1st, Robinson 2nd, Shaq 3rd.
1995: Robinson 1st, Shaq 2nd, Hakeem 3rd.

So yeah, Hakeem swept all the big awards in 94' but Robinson was right up there with him in voting for MVP, DPOY and all-NBA voting. In 95' it was Robinson who was MVP and 1st team over Hakeem. It was not as cut and dry as people think of it now. It was not until the 95' WCF that Hakeem was clearly considered superior to Robinson.


A few? Time flies dude. It was legit from 2006 - 2009 as a debate. 2010 it ended, in 2011 LeBron pissed on it's grave. Kobe left his prime in 2010. James was in the thick of his by then.

Agreed. One guy said since some diehard Kobe fans still had Kobe ahead of LeBron in 2011 and 2012 that therefore it was still a debate. We have to be able to distinguish between "consensus," "majority" and "a few random people." That is leading to confusion in this thread.

By 2010 Kobe vs. LeBron was like MJ vs. Magic in 1990. The answer was obvious but aura and "he is a winner" and the "eye test" were being used for the older, inferior player.

[Cold soul]

LeBron wasn't the consensus in either 2009 or 2010. Hell I remember the Nike puppet commercials pitting these he and Kobe against each other. :oldlol:

From the modern era, save for Mike, Shaq probably has the best case for longest consensus tenure (1999-2002). You could argue KD was better than LeBron last year, and that LeBron was only FOR SURE the leagues best player from 2011-2013.

I agree 2011-2013 Lebron was the best player during that span of time. You can make solid case for Dirk in 2011 just based off his amazing playoff run.

[hawkfan]

He still is.
It's that his team is still a work in progress, and they are missing some pieces.

[Cold soul]

A few? Time flies dude. It was legit from 2006 - 2009 as a debate. 2010 it ended, in 2011 LeBron pissed on it's grave. Kobe left his prime in 2010. James was in the thick of his by then.

2006-2010 Kobe vs. Lebron debate was still going on during those years it ended in 2011 onward.

[SamuraiSWISH]

2006-2010 Kobe vs. Lebron debate was still going on during those years it ended in 2011 onward.
It didn't have a leg to stand on in 2010 by most leigtimate basketball fans.

[ShawkFactory]

It didn't have a leg to stand on in 2010 by most leigtimate basketball fans.
Yea Bron was definitely the best in the 2009-2010 season. He started giving it to Kobe head-to-head too, which is what really cemented it.

[Cold soul]

It didn't have a leg to stand on in 2010 by most leigtimate basketball fans.

Kobe postseason run especially in WCF against Phoenix Suns was all-time great. He had good Finals against Boston other than Game 7 not as impressive as 09 collecting another FMVP winning title 5 and Lebron losing in playoffs again not reaching the Finals hurt Lebron somewhat if we factor in postseason here and not just regular season. To sum it up (playoffs) = Kobe (regular season) = Lebron. Lebron in 2010 was all-time great though one of his top four seasons in his whole career.

[Roundball_Rock]

It didn't have a leg to stand on in 2010 by most leigtimate basketball fans.

Agreed. Kobe vs. Wade for 2nd was a more legitimate debate in 2010 than LeBron vs. Kobe for 1st. Kobe was the most popular player on the most popular team but by 2010 few non-Laker fans had him as the best player.

Cold soul, Kobe averaged 29/6/6 on 46% in the 10' playoffs. That is good but hardly a historically great run. LeBron posted 29/9/8 on 50% that same year and Wade 33/6/7 on 56%.

[Cold soul]

Agreed. Kobe vs. Wade for 2nd was a more legitimate debate in 2010 than LeBron vs. Kobe for 1st. Kobe was the most popular player on the most popular team but by 2010 few non-Laker fans had him as the best player.

Cold soul, Kobe averaged 29/6/6 on 46% in the 10' playoffs. That is good but hardly a historically great run.

I was only talking about Phoenix series only WCF that was historically great not his whole playoff run which it wasn't although it was pretty good but nothing great.

[Springsteen]

LeBron has no heart. He was never considered the best player.

You sure talk a lot of sh*t about Lebron and how much better Durant is than him.

What does it say about Durant when he has had arguably the best PG in the league right now and a top 10 defensive player but hasn't made the finals since Lebron's last ring, not to mention almost getting knocked out in the first round last year if his backup-PG didn't save the day? :confusedshrug:

[Roundball_Rock]

I was only talking about Phoenix series only WCF that was historically great not his whole playoff run which it wasn't although it was pretty good but nothing great.

Got it. You are right on that. I was rooting for PHX and Amare and still can't get over the Artest put back. :(

[9erempiree]

No. Bro. To all the casuals that think Lebron is the best when we have layers like Curry and Durant.

[bdreason]

He's still the best.


"MVP" and "Best" are two different things.

[2swift4u]

I'm not sure who's the best player in the NBA right now. Lebron hasn't been as consistent this year as in the last couple of seasons. He's been turning the ball over an aweful lot for my taste and at times he didn't look very explosive anymore. And his shooting percentage has gone down too, I think.
However he's still making his team better. His influence on the game is still huge.

[JohnFreeman]

:kobe:

At least he had a reign...
damn

[Im Still Ballin]

Lebron is still number one.

[chazzy]

This dude Roundball really said Lebron was the undisputed best player in 2011 with a straight face

[Xover]

Lebron is still currently the best only because the league is so weak at the moment.

[Kingwillball]

No. Bro. To all the casuals that think Lebron is the best when we have layers like Curry and Durant.

Wow keep on fighting the good troll fight..

[T_L_P]

:coleman:

LeBron was considered by most to be the best player from 2009-2014. That is a period of 6 seasons. Plus he had a case in 2008 and has a case in 2015. As a comparison:

Hakeem's reign lasted 2 years (1994 and 1995).
Kobe's reign lasted 3 years (2006-2008).
Duncan's reign lasted 3 years (2003-2005) and some would argue KG over him for 04'.
Magic's reign was probably 2 years (1987 and 1988) and some would argue MJ over him for 88'.
Shaq's reign lasted 4 years (1999-2002) and some would argue Shaq over MJ for 98' as well.
Bird's reign lasted 3 years (1984-1986) and some would argue for Bird as #1 in a few other as seasons as well.

The bottom line is only Kareem (1971-1980), Jordan (1989-1993, 1996-1998), and Wilt had longer reigns than LeBron as the league's best player.

The list is good, but you can't really give Shaq 99 since he hadn't won anything yet and he went out in the Playoffs in a pretty embarrassing fashion.

Duncan was unquestionably better than Shaq in the 99 Playoffs (Shaq even said Duncan messed with his confidence). He won the title and the Finals MVP, sweeping Shaq's Lakers (averaging 29/11/3/2 on .600 TS% for the series to Shaq's 24/13/.5/2 on .508 TS%).

Lots of basketball people were calling Duncan the best player in the league after that and Jordan's successor (among them, Jeff Van Gundy, Bill Walton, Rudy Tomjanovich). Shaq got swept out of the Playoffs for like the 4th your running. It was his league from 2000 on. :confusedshrug:

[Roundball_Rock]

This dude Roundball really said Lebron was the undisputed best player in 2011 with a straight face

Can you find me any press account from the time that refers to Dwight Howard (I assume that is who you have in mind?) as the best player in the league in 2011? The fact is by the summer of 2010 LeBron was being referred to routinely as the best player in the game in the press and by basketball observers--and this thread is about perception of being the best. Does that mean it was correct? No. All this is subjective. Where was the "dispute" occurring circa 2011? It was pretty much over in 2010. LeBron was a back-to-back MVP and won both easily.


The list is good, but you can't really give Shaq 99 since he hadn't won anything yet and he went out in the Playoffs in a pretty embarrassing fashion.

Duncan was unquestionably better than Shaq in the 99 Playoffs (Shaq even said Duncan messed with his confidence). He won the title and the Finals MVP, sweeping Shaq's Lakers (averaging 29/11/3/2 on .600 TS% for the series to Shaq's 24/13/.5/2 on .508 TS%).

Fair points but if you took a poll in 1999 and asked who the best player was wouldn't Shaq have won? A lot of what is being said in this thread relates to perception and there has been confusion over "most people" and "consensus/undisputed." One factor Shaq had in his favor was his brand was established. Duncan was new. Public perception tends to take a while to adapt. Shaq would win a "best player" survey for sure from 2000-2002 and probably in 1999. He would lose in 1998 even though he probably was better on the court than MJ by that point.

[imdaman99]

If he's been the best, why does he quit to go to stacked teams?

Collusion is disrespectful to the rich history of basketball. I thought Barkley was scum for it, and I think bran is now.

Was he the best player for a couple of years? Absolutely, but he clearly isn't anymore.

[ArbitraryWater]

:coleman:

LeBron was considered by most to be the best player from 2009-2014. That is a period of 6 seasons. Plus he had a case in 2008 and has a case in 2015. As a comparison:

Hakeem's reign lasted 2 years (1994 and 1995).
Kobe's reign lasted 3 years (2006-2008).
Duncan's reign lasted 3 years (2003-2005) and some would argue KG over him for 04'.
Magic's reign was probably 2 years (1987 and 1988) and some would argue MJ over him for 88'.
Shaq's reign lasted 4 years (1999-2002) and some would argue Shaq over MJ for 98' as well.
Bird's reign lasted 3 years (1984-1986) and some would argue for Bird as #1 in a few other as seasons as well.

The bottom line is only Kareem (1971-1980), Jordan (1989-1993, 1996-1998), and Wilt had longer reigns than LeBron as the league's best player.

LeBron's 2009-2015 is 7 years and counting... wow.

[Rose'sACL]

If he's been the best, why does he quit to go to stacked teams?

Collusion is disrespectful to the rich history of basketball. I thought Barkley was scum for it, and I think bran is now.

Was he the best player for a couple of years? Absolutely, but he clearly isn't anymore.
kobe got shaq plus being on lakers which helps in making money on and off the court. he had a couple seasons of playing on team and started asking for trades not just behind the scenes but also on national radio and thankfully he plays on lakers so they quickly got a good team around him.
magic made sure that no one else but lakers could draft him. bird got stacked teams throughout his career. jordan probably waited 4 years before having a very good team. he got a stacked team later on.
so jordan is the only one who had to wait 4 years. lebron waited 7 and that too in today's league where free agency is way better than in jordan's time.

give me a grown man answer why you respect magic and kobe but hate lebron?

[Straight_Ballin]

Deal with it.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ttjWQeUyEoc

[Prime_Shaq]

LeBron's 2009-2015 is 7 years and counting... wow.
Well I would say 2009 is arguable, but 2010-2015 is pretty much locked

[lilteapot]

He's still easily the best player in the world and nothing any worthless fatherless troll on this board can say will do anything about that

[Velocirap31]

He's still easily the best player in the world and nothing any worthless fatherless troll on this board can say will do anything about that

:applause:

[Straight_Ballin]

He's still easily the best player in the world and nothing any worthless fatherless troll on this board can say will do anything about that

All that means is that he's playing in a weak ass era. Anytime you have a guy that's been playing that long still the best, you have a weak, beta era.

You being proud of Bron being the best in this weak era is like being happy for the fat guy that won a local pie eating contest.

[iggy>]

Wade and Dirk were better in 2011 and Durant has been better since 2012.
Durant isn't even the best player on his team :roll:

[lilteapot]

All that means is that he's playing in a weak ass era. Anytime you have a guy that's been playing that long still the best, you have a weak, beta era.

You being proud of Bron being the best in this weak era is like being happy for the fat guy that won a local pie eating contest.

So Curry and Durant and Harden is weak competition when compared to Lebron James

Nice to know you recognize his greatness.

[iggy>]

You being proud of Bron being the best in this weak era is like being happy for the fat guy that won a local pie eating contest.
This was the highlight of your life was it not?

[chazzy]

Can you find me any press account from the time that refers to Dwight Howard (I assume that is who you have in mind?) as the best player in the league in 2011? The fact is by the summer of 2010 LeBron was being referred to routinely as the best player in the game in the press and by basketball observers--and this thread is about perception of being the best. Does that mean it was correct? No. All this is subjective. Where was the "dispute" occurring circa 2011? It was pretty much over in 2010. LeBron was a back-to-back MVP and won both easily.

Uhhh... are you forgetting about the f'n 2011 finals? Are you telling me that there wasn't ANY DISPUTE about who the best player in the game was after that season was over?


Marc Stein, ESPN.com: This is a joke, right? After everything we just saw from Nowitzki in the playoffs, powering a one-star construction to the title Hakeem Olajuwon-style with the most unstoppable single shot (that inimitable one-legged J) since Kareem Abdul-Jabbar's skyhook, we're ranking him fifth? Maybe this is the only season we can ever say so, but Dirk deserves to start it -- if it ever starts -- at the very top.

[Straight_Ballin]

This was the highlight of your life was it not?

Please have more than 2 era's of NBA viewing under your belt before worrying what I'm doing. Until then, keep flipping those burgers to afford that NBA league pass.

[RRR3]

All that means is that he's playing in a weak ass era. Anytime you have a guy that's been playing that long still the best, you have a weak, beta era.

You being proud of Bron being the best in this weak era is like being happy for the fat guy that won a local pie eating contest.
Jordan played in a weak era too by this logic.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Uhhh... are you forgetting about the f'n 2011 finals? Are you telling me that there wasn't ANY DISPUTE about who the best player in the game was after that season was over?
Yeah, its just asining to think LeBron could be the consensus in 2010 and 2011 after we saw him bow out in the postseason (horrifically). Kobe and Wade have cases, albeit small in 2010 (listen to the TNT crew (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2KKJmSYaC8E) after Kobe's WCF performance), while Dirk/Howard have strong ones in 2011.

Nothing about those seasons equal a consensus, though.

[SilkkTheShocker]

All that means is that he's playing in a weak ass era. Anytime you have a guy that's been playing that long still the best, you have a weak, beta era.

You being proud of Bron being the best in this weak era is like being happy for the fat guy that won a local pie eating contest.

Weak era? You mean like Jordan who was defended by an assortment 6'1 guards, Craig Ehlo, and former bag boy Starks? It's too bad we never got to see LeBron play against the expansion Miami Heat, Timberwolves, Raptors, etc. Any team LeBron beat or lost to in the Finals, without a doubt would have beaten any of the 6 teams Jordan beat in the Finals. Hell, Jordan couldn't even win more than what, 3 playoff games without Pippen? :lol

[SilkkTheShocker]

Yeah, its just asining to think LeBron could be the consensus in 2010 and 2011 after we saw him bow out in the postseason (horrifically). Kobe and Wade have cases, albeit small in 2010 (listen to the TNT crew (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2KKJmSYaC8E) after Kobe's WCF performance), while Dirk/Howard have strong ones in 2011.

Nothing about those seasons equal a consensus, though.

The best player in the league doesn't lose in the first round of the playoffs. Dwight and Wade have no case at all. If anything it was Dirk. Whose team was garbage without him. And he ended up beating the Lakers, OKC, and Miami with a team of role players. Wasn't even favored to beat Portland by many.

[Straight_Ballin]

Jordan played in a weak era too by this logic.

At the end of Jordan's career he was doing this:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=taWGSRc1sJ4

Lebron on the other hand is at the end of his career and and gets blocked by old ass kobe. :lol

[iggy>]

Please have more than 2 era's of NBA viewing under your belt before worrying what I'm doing. Until then, keep flipping those burgers to afford that NBA league pass.
Struck a nerve. So lard ass from stand by me is now a message board troll. :roll: true Hollywood stories :bowdown:

[SilkkTheShocker]

At the end of Jordan's career he was doing this:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=taWGSRc1sJ4

Lebron on the other hand is at the end of his career and and gets blocked by old ass kobe. :lol

Those Wizards team were also comically irrelevant and couldn't even muster the 8th seed. Will see if LeBron is still playing at 40, but you got to remember no has player more minutes than him at NBA history than he has at 30. He didn't retire because he got a parent killed/along with taking another 3 year break like Jordan had.

[chazzy]

Yeah, its just asining to think LeBron could be the consensus in 2010 and 2011 after we saw him bow out in the postseason (horrifically). Kobe and Wade have cases, albeit small in 2010 (listen to the TNT crew (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2KKJmSYaC8E) after Kobe's WCF performance), while Dirk/Howard have strong ones in 2011.

Nothing about those seasons equal a consensus, though.
Roundball is the king of hyperbole when it comes to his search for someone to pass MJ. Used to push for Kobe, now it's Lebron

[Straight_Ballin]

Weak era? You mean like Jordan who was defended by an assortment 6'1 guards, Craig Ehlo, and former bag boy Starks? It's too bad we never got to see LeBron play against the expansion Miami Heat, Timberwolves, Raptors, etc. Any team LeBron beat or lost to in the Finals, without a doubt would have beaten any of the 6 teams Jordan beat in the Finals. Hell, Jordan couldn't even win more than what, 3 playoff games without Pippen? :lol

You mean like rondo guarding james in current weak era?

http://m.espn.go.com/general/blogs/blogpost?blogname=truehoopmiamiheat&id=4474&src=desktop

[24-Inch_Chrome]

At the end of Jordan's career he was doing this:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=taWGSRc1sJ4

Lebron on the other hand is at the end of his career and and gets blocked by old ass kobe. :lol

You said that a player holding the position of best in the league for an extended period of time is indicative of a weak era...which means that, according to your model, Jordan must have played in a weak era.

Posting a video doesn't change what your generalization implied.

[Straight_Ballin]

You said that a player holding the position of best in the league for an extended period of time is indicative of a weak era...which means that, according to your model, Jordan must have played in a weak era.

Posting a video doesn't change what your generalization implied.

And your reply to my video doesn't change the fact that Bron is 2/5 in a weak ass era of floppers where hand checking is prohibited. Look, I get it....Bron and this weak era is all this generation has and they are butthurt about not having been privleged enough to witness true greatness in Michael Jeffery Jordan.:lol

Enjoy watching Bron's easy road to the ECF this year and another asterisk on his resume.

[iggy>]

Enjoy watching Bron's easy road to the ECF this year and another asterisk on his resume.
Did you enjoy watching magic Johnson's easy road to the finals every year in the weak ass 80s western conference?

[lilteapot]

Did you enjoy watching magic Johnson's easy road to the finals every year in the weak ass 80s western conference?
silly goose, he wasn't even born in the 80s :oldlol:

[Roundball_Rock]

Kuniva, look at that RealGM thread and exclude Dirk. Other than the in-the-moment boomlet for Dirk LeBron would win even there, even after the lousy Finals. He is 1st or 2nd (behind Dirk) on pretty much every list. A month before or after that Dirk would not even be in most people's top 3.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

That is from June of 2011--at the very height of the anti-LeBron hysteria online and a wave for Dirk.

In my opinion, that makes it even better. There is nothing like giving your opinion at the moment as long as it's within context.


A poll taken in those conditions would be ignored in the polling world since it would be clearly skewed and not an accurate reflection. That is like polling people on the death penalty the day after a gruesome murder occurred in that area. Just look at the first page.

Most hardcore fans (media included) watch all the games, have the stats, and know what's what going into any game at any specific time. Circumstance and status weren't just simply ignored. People had a healthy understanding of what they saw throughout the year -- the finals being icing on the cake, especially for Dirk who had an all-time great postseason.

Death? A finality. Given the context, the perception stays the same with a "gruesome murder". Investigating and subsequently trialing someone for murder is far more in depth than some player ranking (gathering physical evidence ie. dna, determining probable cause under the color of law, etc). Can't say I agree with your comparison.


Maybe this is where the disconnect is. I am not speaking about ISH or RealGM.

I don't have ESPN, SI, or SLAM's lists of players right after the 2011 finals, but I'm certain there were a handful of journalists from each group that would take Dirk over LeBron.

The rankings you posted were merely projections for the following season. Just read the introduction to SLAM's list: "Generally, this means regular-season NBA hoops is on the other side of the weekend. Not so this time (lockout). Still, it’s worth looking back on who SLAMonline projects to be the 50 best players in ’11-12, whenever the season may begin."

[Roundball_Rock]

The rankings you posted were merely projections of the following season. Just read the introduction to SLAM's list: "Generally, this means regular-season NBA hoops is on the other side of the weekend. Not so this time (lockout). Still, it’s worth looking back on who SLAMonline projects to be the 50 best players in ’11-12, whenever the season may begin."

Yes, and there is a clear limitation to that. What was the alternative, though? Rankings heading into the 2011 season would be dismissed because of the Finals and there simply rarely are end-of-year rankings in the press. Rankings in October of 2011 heading into the following season provide a good snapshot of where players stood--since no one got injured over the summer. If Dirk was legitimately #1 in June 2011 how could he slip to 7th, 5th, 4th just a few months later?


In my opinion, that makes it even better. There is nothing like giving your opinion at the moment as long as it's within context.

That I won't dispute. Nor am I really interested in who actually was the best. What I posted, and was contested on, is the general view in 2011 was that LeBron was the best player. There was not a big group of people arguing for Howard and no one outside of Lakers fans arguing for Kobe. Wade? He was viewed as at best 1b to LeBron. Dirk? He was viewed as top 5 but few had him in their top 3 let alone argued that he was #1. LeBron was then viewed as the best entering the following season, irrespective of a summer of dissent online. As he was entering the previous season. Basically there was only a month or two of second guessing but that quickly dissipated.


I don't have ESPN, SI, and or SLAM's lists of players right after the 2011 finals, but I'm certain there were a handful of journalists from each group that would take Dirk over LeBron.

Did they even do them? Usually rankings are done heading into a season and the rankings generally reflect what players did the previous year, unless someone got hurt and is a question mark or expected to substantially decline as a result.

I agree with you, though. However, how many? I bet LeBron even in June 2011 among journalists would trounce Dirk for the year as a whole, even if not the playoffs (and remember Westbrook arguably was the best for the playoffs last year yet no one argues him as #1 for all of 2014). Maybe Dirk would get 20% and Howard 10%.

To summarize my position, was there ever a real debate as to who the best player was in 2011? Was there a strong challenger to LeBron for it? Was LeBron's support not a clear majority?

Heading into the year Wade, Kobe were deemed to be LeBron's peers. During the season Howard emerged as the #2. During the playoffs Dirk experienced a surge. The one constant? LeBron as the benchmark, which itself is revealing. That is one reason LeBron has retained this perception for so long: he is very consistent. Guys like Wade, Howard, Paul, Dirk had boomlets but did not have staying power in terms of the conversation for #1. Wade was most likely to be ranked #3 at his peak--few people had him at #2 let alone #1. Kobe is the one guy who stayed up there with LeBron early in LeBron's reign and then later it was Durant. The problem? Kobe was on the descent during that period and LeBron ascending into his prime and then peak so they crossed paths briefly. Durant was not a serious threat until 2014--and now he has slipped, albeit due to injury. LeBron is the one constant in the "best player" debate for approaching a decade now.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Roundball,

Heading into September and October, when the hangover from last season subsided and people were ready for another year, many had LeBron as the best player because of what he and Miami were projected and expected to do. Lets face it. LeBron choked. Dirk had an historical, but arbitrary year. The safe bet is to go with the best player on the best team (back when Miami was still regarded as "stacked").

And again, I'm not saying there weren't ANY that had LeBron as the best player, or that it wasn't close, I just don't think after the finals, a week, even a few months afterward, many had him as the best player THAT season. He sure as hell wasn't the consensus. :oldlol:

[GreggPopazit]

well, that was fast.

Shortest reign of best player for someone consider an all time great.

Kobe's was shorter.

[ImKobe]

only year Lebron was unquestionably the best in the league was 2013 lol, when he backed his regular season up in the Playoffs and led a team to a title and it still has an asterisk on it

in reality, he hasn't been the best player in the L that long even as half as long as Kobe was.

[KirbyPls]

only year Lebron was unquestionably the best in the league was 2013 lol, when he backed his regular season up in the Playoffs and led a team to a title and it still has an asterisk on it

in reality, he hasn't been the best player in the L that long even as half as long as Kobe was.

Kobetards. :lol

[ImKobe]

Kobetards. :lol

Kobe was best from 06-10 (5 seasons)

Lebron 2012 2013 :confusedshrug:, and in 09 he himself said Kobe was better than him at that time (in March 09)

so yeah.

[lilteapot]

Kobe was best from 06-10 (5 seasons)

Lebron 2012 2013 :confusedshrug:, and in 09 he himself said Kobe was better than him at that time (in March 09)

so yeah.

Lebron:

2009: 28/7/7
2010: 29/8/7

Kobe:

2009: 26/5/5
2010: 27/5/5

[Prometheus]

Stats are always mentioned when discussing Lebron as the best and this year he has been lackluster, so what's the argument.

Nobody brings up MJ, Kobe, Bird, Magic or Kareem's stats but with Lebron his stats is forced on basketball purists.

Actually yes they do. Constantly. You're a retard.

[JerrySeinfeld]

Been that way since last year.

[ImKobe]

Lebron:

2009: 28/7/7
2010: 29/8/7

Kobe:

2009: 26/5/5
2010: 27/5/5

Lebron:

2009: Didn't make finals
2010: Didn't make finals

kobe:

2009: Finals MVP
2010: Finals MVP

Kobe 30/6/6 08-10 Playoffs, only player in NBA history to put up 600+ pts in 3 straight Playoff runs

Lebron had to leave a 60+ win team because he couldn't carry the team in crunch time of the Playoffs before Wade taught him to and Bosh + Allen kept him from being at 1 Finals win out of 5 appearances lol.

sit down.

[Straight_Ballin]

Lebron:

2009: Didn't make finals
2010: Didn't make finals

kobe:

2009: Finals MVP
2010: Finals MVP

Kobe 30/6/6 08-10 Playoffs, only player in NBA history to put up 600+ pts in 3 straight Playoff runs

sit down.

Teapot just got filled with ether.

[G0ATbe]

Lebron:

2009: Didn't make finals
2010: Didn't make finals

kobe:

2009: Finals MVP
2010: Finals MVP

Kobe 30/6/6 08-10 Playoffs, only player in NBA history to put up 600+ pts in 3 straight Playoff runs

Lebron had to leave a 60+ win team because he couldn't carry the team in crunch time of the Playoffs before Wade taught him to and Bosh + Allen kept him from being at 1 Finals win out of 5 appearances lol.

sit down.
:applause: :applause: :applause:

[riseagainst]

Lebron:

2009: Didn't make finals
2010: Didn't make finals

kobe:

2009: Finals MVP
2010: Finals MVP

Kobe 30/6/6 08-10 Playoffs, only player in NBA history to put up 600+ pts in 3 straight Playoff runs

Lebron had to leave a 60+ win team because he couldn't carry the team in crunch time of the Playoffs before Wade taught him to and Bosh + Allen kept him from being at 1 Finals win out of 5 appearances lol.

sit down.


lol... dam.

[305Baller]

Lebron:

2009: Didn't make finals
2010: Didn't make finals

kobe:

2009: Finals MVP
2010: Finals MVP

Kobe 30/6/6 08-10 Playoffs, only player in NBA history to put up 600+ pts in 3 straight Playoff runs

Lebron had to leave a 60+ win team because he couldn't carry the team in crunch time of the Playoffs before Wade taught him to and Bosh + Allen kept him from being at 1 Finals win out of 5 appearances lol.

sit down.

Ether?

[lilteapot]

Lebron:

2009: Didn't make finals
2010: Didn't make finals

kobe:

2009: Finals MVP
2010: Finals MVP

Kobe 30/6/6 08-10 Playoffs, only player in NBA history to put up 600+ pts in 3 straight Playoff runs

Lebron had to leave a 60+ win team because he couldn't carry the team in crunch time of the Playoffs before Wade taught him to and Bosh + Allen kept him from being at 1 Finals win out of 5 appearances lol.

sit down.

So Kobe wasn't the best player in the world in 2006?

[T_L_P]

Kobe was best from 06-10 (5 seasons)

Lebron 2012 2013 :confusedshrug:, and in 09 he himself said Kobe was better than him at that time (in March 09)

so yeah.

http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/ratings/2007.html

06-07: didn't win shit but had arguably the best raw stats in the league (and he didn't anyway). Other measures say Duncan, Dirk and LeBron were better players those two years (and Duncan won a title).

09-10: LeBron blows Kobe out of the water statistically, he didn't win. Kobe won so he was the league's best.

The double standard. :oldlol:

[KirbyPls]

http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/ratings/2007.html

06-07: didn't win shit but had arguably the best raw stats in the league (and he didn't anyway). Other measures say Duncan, Dirk and LeBron were better players those two years (and Duncan won a title).

09-10: LeBron blows Kobe out of the water statistically, he didn't win. Kobe won so he was the league's best.

The double standard. :oldlol:

When you stan a player that was never the consensus best player in the league, moving goal posts and double standards are your only allies.

Lebron and your boi Duncan got Kobetards more shook than Fudge since Sillk came back. :cheers:

[iggy>]

in reality, he hasn't been the best player in the L that long even as half as long as Kobe was.
Judging from his 1 mvp award? :roll:

[lilteapot]

Judging from his 1 mvp award? :roll:
:roll: Owned

[pauk]

Why cant you learn? We have this same thread.... every year.... haters just cant wait for him not to be best anymore..... and just like every year the playoffs come and all the players & teams reveal their true self....

I cant wait for you/everybody to see how great Harden/Westbrook/Curry really are when the lights turn on.... compared to Lebron & Durant who will be healthy & not coasting anymore..... you will yet again be remembered the difference between Lebron/Durant and somebody like freaking Curry/Westbrook/Harden.....

Then the next year comes and same thread again.... and same result at the end of the year....

WHY? Why cant you learn....

[ballin33]

we'll see who's the best come playoff time!

[knicksman]

Why cant you learn? We have this same thread.... every year.... haters just cant wait for him not to be best anymore..... and just like every year the playoffs come and all the players & teams reveal their true self....

I cant wait for you/everybody to see how great Harden/Westbrook/Curry really are when the lights turn on.... compared to Lebron & Durant who will be healthy & not coasting anymore..... you will yet again be remembered the difference between Lebron/Durant and somebody like freaking Curry/Westbrook/Harden.....

Then the next year comes and same thread again.... and same result at the end of the year....

WHY? Why cant you learn....

Just proves that bran stans have no idea beyond stats. Anyone with a brain knows that bran cant score when it matters. Hes the type of student that is good at every art subjects but fails at math but because he has nice average, idiots still believe hes a high IQ student. But result speaks for itself. Theres a reason why dropouts like steve jobs are winners while the losers who tries to get perfect grades at easier subjects(statpadders) works for the winners.

Theres a reason why kobe is a winner. Because he takes the most difficult role and that is to take the most difficult shot while losers are willing to settle for less which is scoring on fastbreak points which eventually gets exposed when they cant score in the finals.

[edrick]

This shit is no different than comparing Manning to Brady in the NFL. Manning may be the regular season champ, but we all know that Brady > Manning when it counts the most.

Let's see what these guys do in the Playoffs before making a claim on how great they are.

[KirbyPls]

Just proves that bran stans have no idea beyond stats. Anyone with a brain knows that bran cant score when it matters. Hes the type of student that is good at every art subjects but fails at math but because he has nice average, idiots still believe hes a high IQ student. But result speaks for itself. Theres a reason why dropouts like steve jobs are winners while the losers who tries to get perfect grades at easier subjects(statpadders) gets exposed eventually.

Theres a reason why kobe is a winner. Because he takes the most difficult role and that is to take the most difficult shot while losers are willing to settle for less which is scoring on fastbreak points which eventually gets exposed when they cant score in the finals.

LBJ has the Highest PPG in playoff, elimination game history.

Here, have an L on the house Kobetard.

[knicksman]

LBJ has the Highest PPG in playoff, elimination game history.

Here, have an L on the house Kobetard.

LOL playing in the weak east doesnt prove sht.

[Hey Yo]

Just proves that bran stans have no idea beyond stats. Anyone with a brain knows that bran cant score when it matters. Hes the type of student that is good at every art subjects but fails at math but because he has nice average, idiots still believe hes a high IQ student. But result speaks for itself. Theres a reason why dropouts like steve jobs are winners while the losers who tries to get perfect grades at easier subjects(statpadders) works for the winners.

Theres a reason why kobe is a winner. Because he takes the most difficult role and that is to take the most difficult shot while losers are willing to settle for less which is scoring on fastbreak points which eventually gets exposed when they cant score in the finals.
dumb

[Rodmantheman]

Sure looks like the best player in the league.

[pauk]

http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/shaking_head_breaking_bad.gif

[JT123]

I say we close this thread immediately. No other player is even in Lebron's class.

[knicksman]

2/5 is still an embarrasing stat

[pauk]

2/5 is still an embarrasing stat

Still not as embarrassing as your entire Knicks Finals record... 2/8.... out of 68 seasons....

[Jud]

Still not as embarrassing as your entire Knicks Finals record... 2/8.... out of 68 seasons....
Ouch

[knicksman]

Still not as embarrassing as your entire Knicks Finals record... 2/8.... out of 68 seasons....

2/5

[Smoke117]

Still not as embarrassing as your entire Knicks Finals record... 2/8.... out of 68 seasons....

http://i.minus.com/iBEwT7tEC0X2B.gif

[Kvnzhangyay]

2/5

As bad as 2/5 can be if you compare it to 6/6 the Knicks as a WHOLE is still worse :roll: :roll:

[JT123]

Why cant you learn? We have this same thread.... every year.... haters just cant wait for him not to be best anymore..... and just like every year the playoffs come and all the players & teams reveal their true self....

I cant wait for you/everybody to see how great Harden/Westbrook/Curry really are when the lights turn on.... compared to Lebron & Durant who will be healthy & not coasting anymore..... you will yet again be remembered the difference between Lebron/Durant and somebody like freaking Curry/Westbrook/Harden.....

Then the next year comes and same thread again.... and same result at the end of the year....

WHY? Why cant you learn....
:oldlol: Pauk is a profit. Every year some regular season hero gives haters hope that Lebron has finally been surpassed, and every year said player gets exposed. Last year these same fools were on Durant's nuts, and now they are suddenly Curry stans. :facepalm Shameless bandwagoners. Lebron will be the face of the league until he retires. Get used to it.

[knicksman]

As bad as 2/5 can be if you compare it to 6/6 the Knicks as a WHOLE is still worse :roll: :roll:

2/5 is still 2/5 doe.

[Jud]

2/5
2/5 in 5 seasons >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2/8 in 68 seasons

Just take the L and move on. You're gonna embarrass yourself even more if you continue to talk about it.

[knicksman]

2/5 in 5 seasons >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2/8 in 68 seasons

Just take the L and move on. You're gonna embarrass yourself even more if you continue to talk about it.

Why you mad doe?

[knicksman]

:oldlol: Pauk is a profit. Every year some regular season hero gives haters hope that Lebron has finally been surpassed, and every year said player gets exposed. Last year these same fools were on Durant's nuts, and now they are suddenly Curry stans. :facepalm Shameless bandwagoners. Lebron will be the face of the league until he retires. Get used to it.

wut..its easy to surpass a 2/5 player doe

[Kvnzhangyay]

wut..its easy to surpass a 2/5 player doe

2 championships is bad now?

[Jud]

Why you mad doe?
What are you, 12? :oldlol: You didn't even know 2/5 > 2/8. Learn some math, youngin'.

[knicksman]

2 championships is bad now?

wut? even isiah can win 2 without cheating

[Kvnzhangyay]

wut? even isiah can win 2 without cheating

Its cheating to YOU because YOU think its cheating :confusedshrug:

[Droid101]

Pauk is a profit.
http://thumbs.dreamstime.com/x/profit-loss-icon-8224620.jpg

[Bigsmoke]

well, that was fast.

Shortest reign of best player for someone consider an all time great.

LeBron has been the best player since the beginning of the 2008 season. So that's from 2008 to 2015.


That ain't a long time?

[Prime_Shaq]

LeBron has been the best player since the beginning of the 2008 season. So that's from 2008 to 2015.


That ain't a long time?
2008 it was Kobe and 2009 it was Wade. Since then its LeBron.

[plowking]

http://thumbs.dreamstime.com/x/profit-loss-icon-8224620.jpg

:oldlol: :oldlol:

[Nash]

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
the ether lebron put on this ridiculous thread