What would Jordan do to this defense

[3ball]

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/911d3cac30b219754c53b4b156428f49.gif

Lebron has all the room and time that he needs to make his move because the spacing and rule changes have opened up the middle of the floor, as the league had intended - look how far defenders must help from, and look how wide open the paint remains on a perpetual basis.. Previous era players never had this much room OR time.

As you can see, it's easier than ever to run 1-on-1 plays in today's game - the actual success rate of 1-on-1 hasn't been diminished at all.. It's just that the spacing and rule changes have made penetration automatic and improved the effectiveness of ball movement - consequently, the success rate of high screen/drive-and-kick or other types of penetration and ball movement have surpassed the success rate of 1-on-1 for all but the top players.

Naturally, only the top players go 1-on-1 consistently and frequently - for the rest of the players, it now makes more sense to move the ball and run some boring high screen to get the automatic penetration and initiate the ball movement.. This is why the average player in previous eras had more play-creating ability than today's players - other than the top players, today's average player at the 2-5 spots is just a play-finisher.
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[kshutts1]

Could have sworn Blaze asked you to not make post after post after post about rule differences changing the game?

[Im Still Ballin]

Excuse me sir, did you order this deluxe ether?

[imnew09]

Idk but Godbe would do a reverse baseline dunk :bowdown:

[BasedTom]

probably kill his father tbh

[SugarHill]

probably kill his father tbh
:oldlol:

[Im so nba'd out]

michael jordan would never get that type of defense because ppl feared his scoring way too much and if he did he would score just like lbj did

[SilkkTheShocker]

What would LeBron get to do is he got to play a bunch of dogs.hit expansion teams most of his career? :oldlol: :oldlol:

[Mass Debator]

Easy, talk smack so he unfolds. The question is what Lebron would do to this:

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/e8/99/52/e899528fbc0e7ebf64c1119eb5e4c46b.jpg

http://davidhoang.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/1eba0740big.jpg

[Dizzle-2k7]

Could have sworn Blaze asked you to not make post after post after post about rule differences changing the game?


:cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:

[3ball]

Idk but Godbe would do a reverse baseline dunk :bowdown:



I feel you bro and I agree.. MJbe would also take much better advantage of the situation than Lebron did.

Btw, even though the spacing keeps the defenders far away and gives Lebron all day to decide what to do, WHAT IN THE WORLD IS LEBRON WAITING FOR?


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/1abcaf2aaa5088edf6d7510cdde1ba3d.gif

[mehyaM24]

against defenses with a ~101 defensive rating or lower (today's warriors), jordan with the bulls shot 41% (wizards jordan shot the worst TS% of all 20ppg scorers all-time, although he was past his prime). suffice to say, he would be an inefficient scorer against the leagues best defenses - defenses that hold opponents to 101 points or lower per 100 possessions.

[Akhenaten]

I feel you bro and I agree.. MJbe would also take much better advantage of the situation than Lebron did.

Btw, even though the spacing keeps the defenders far away and gives Lebron all day to decide what to do, WHAT IN THE WORLD IS LEBRON WAITING FOR?


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/1abcaf2aaa5088edf6d7510cdde1ba3d.gif


you know that's a travel right
only bring it up because guys like you act like players didn't get away with stuff back in the days and things were officiated strictly by the book

MJ blatantly traveled in that gif

[Prometheus]

OP I agree with you, but I think you've missed a few key points:

- Jordan > LeBron
- rule changes have made it easier to score inside
- Jordan

[3ball]

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/1abcaf2aaa5088edf6d7510cdde1ba3d.gif

you know that's a travel right

MJ blatantly traveled in that gif



not a travel at all - know your footwork..

infact, it's a very standard move for MJ.. albiet, it's a play of the year for others:


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/0552c6acb1b36da6ff0cabd5d003ff65.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/750cee2af2de8a095021bb19b0d5003b.gif

[Sakkreth]

It is travel. Run around ur defender then dribble, but not a travel ? :facepalm

[3ball]

It is travel. Run around ur defender then dribble, but not a travel ?



none of these below are a travel - you just don't know your footwork - i'm guessing you don't play ball, or are really bad at it (not trying to be mean.. just making observation).


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/1abcaf2aaa5088edf6d7510cdde1ba3d.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/0552c6acb1b36da6ff0cabd5d003ff65.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/750cee2af2de8a095021bb19b0d5003b.gif


These 3 chest-to-chest posters were standard for Jordan, but would be plays of the year for guys like Westbrook or Lebron - infact, those guys AREN'T CAPABLE of doing these moves - too much skill, footwork, and quick/instinctive decision-making is needed to do these moves.
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[24-Inch_Chrome]

You can try to disparage him all you want to, the guy led his team to an easy win over the league's #1 ranked team/#1 defense on 42/11/5.

I really hope you do get banned though, every ****ing spam thread you make has the same stupid shit about floor spacing/paint camping rule changes.

[3ball]

You can try to disparage him all you want to, the guy led his team to an easy win over the league's #1 ranked team/#1 defense on 42/11/5.

I really hope you do get banned though, every ****ing spam thread you make has the same stupid shit about floor spacing/paint camping rule changes.


the point of the thread isn't to disparage lebron, it's to show how it's just as easy to score today as any previous era - look how much room he has and look how much time he has to make a decision.

the rule changes and spacing have opened up the middle of the floor, as the league intended, so defenders must help from further distances.

the rule changes also made penetration AUTOMATIC.. it is a built-in component of the game now.

[24-Inch_Chrome]

the point of the thread isn't to disparage lebron, it's to show how it's just as easy to score today as any previous era - look how much room he has and look how much time he has to make a decision.

the rule changes and spacing have opened up the middle of the floor, as the league intended, so defenders must help from further distances.

As you can see, it's easier than ever to run 1-on-1 plays in today's game - the actual success rate of 1-on-1 hasn't been diminished at all.. It's just that the spacing and rule changes have made penetration automatic and improved the effectiveness of ball movement - consequently, the success rate of high screen roll/drive-and-kick or other types of penetration and ball movement have surpassed the success rate of 1-on-1 for all but the top players.

Naturally, only the top players go 1-on-1 frequently - for the rest of the players, it now makes more sense to move the ball and run some boring high screen to get the automatic penetration and initiate the ball movement.. This is why the average player in previous eras had more play-creating ability than today's players - other than the top players, today's average player at the 2-5 spots is just a play-finisher.

It's 100% to disparage LeBron. You do this all the time, as soon as any modern player generates any kind of hype you show up with a thread full of gifs to show how easy modern players have it and how Jordan would do so much better.

It's the exact same thread every single time.

[mehyaM24]

against defenses with a ~101 defensive rating or lower (today's warriors), jordan with the bulls shot 41% (wizards jordan shot the worst TS% of all 20ppg scorers all-time, although he was past his prime). suffice to say, he would be an inefficient scorer against the leagues best defenses - defenses that hold opponents to 101 points or lower per 100 possessions.
:confusedshrug:

[3ball]

:confusedshrug:
all players fare worse against the best defenses.. this is obvious common knowledge.

but jordan fared better in the playoffs against the top defenses than any player in history.

here's jordan stats against each top 5 ranked defense that he ever faced in the playoffs - no one comes close to this performance against elite playoff defenses:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=362242
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[mehyaM24]

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/layup-546b9345d2b6c.gif

^^there is nobody even contesting jordan at the 3pt line - but thats NOT what is deplorable - look at jordan's drive to the basket which is met with NO resistance or rim protection. :oldlol:

a) he passes on an open 3, with no defender in sight
b) no resistance at the hoop - free reign to do whatever (hence "the move" - which was completely unnecessary i might add).

this was in THE FINALS too.. honestly though? anyone can accumlate gifs and make judgements on mere snippets.. truth is, defensive rating is the best measure of defensive efficiency, and against sub 101 dratings (the norm for today's best defenses, and akin to the defense lebron destroyed in last nights game), jordan shot a timid 41% - he was regulated to an inefficient volume scorer.

[Akhenaten]

not a travel at all - know your footwork..

infact, it's a very standard move for MJ.. albiet, it's a play of the year for others:


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/0552c6acb1b36da6ff0cabd5d003ff65.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/750cee2af2de8a095021bb19b0d5003b.gif

This one isn't a travel as he kept that right foot planted until the ball left his hand, that first one you posted is definitely a travel.

I wouldn't have called it though, it's too technical and nitpicky a call to make. It's kind of like your beef with the whole "gather" thing, you could call a violation on somebody virtually every possession who you went by strict letter of the law and that's in ANY era.

[3ball]

It's 100% to disparage LeBron.


nah, this thread shows how much time and room lebron has on the post due to the spacing and rule changes that have opened up the middle of the floor.

and if you go back and re-watch lebron's highlights last night against the Warriors - you'll see how the rule changes not only opened up the middle of the floor, but they made penetration AUTOMATIC - penetration is now a built-in component of the game.

a high screen roll, and then the penetrator literally gets to WALTZ down the lane everytime and the defense must now scramble around to compensate.

[TheMan]

3Ball, are you even a Bulls fan or just a Jordan Junkie? Serious question. The 14-15 Bulls are on a quest for their seventh chip and all you can talk about is Jordan. Stop living in the past. MJ is the GOAT (at the very least right up there with any other GOAT candidate), informed posters know this, if young LeStans don't know this, don't even bother with them, let them wallow in their ignorance.

Get on the 14-15 Chicago Bulls Championship Cruise before it's too late, bruh :rockon:

[andgar923]

There was a play late in the fourth that was more telling. I think there was under 1 minute left in the game and Bron had the ball at the top of the key on an ISO. The lanes were wide open, he beat his man but didn't finish penetrating. That would've been either a layup or dunk for MJ.

Another was the dish to Love to seal the game.

He was in the post and I thought MJ would've scored in the same situation.

MJ would've made that warriors defense look very bad en route to 50 points with ease.

[24-Inch_Chrome]

nah, this thread shows how much time and room lebron has on the post due to the spacing and rule changes that have opened up the middle of the floor.

and if you go back and re-watch lebron's highlights last night against the Warriors - you'll see how the rule changes not only opened up the middle of the floor, but they made penetration AUTOMATIC - penetration is now a built-in component of the game.

a high screen roll, and then the penetrator literally gets to WALTZ down the lane everytime and the defense must now scramble around to compensate.

Stop, your agenda is clear. This thread and every other thread you make (because they're basically all about the exact same thing) exist to disparage modern players (LeBron being a common target) and put Jordan on some monstrous pedestal.

[Dr Seuss]

He'd probably kill it, just like he did his father.

[Lebron23]

OP is not even a Jordan fan. He made people hate Michael Jordan in this forum.

[mehyaM24]

There was a play late in the fourth that was more telling. I think there was under 1 minute left in the game and Bron had the ball at the top of the key on an ISO. The lanes were wide open, he beat his man but didn't finish penetrating. That would've been either a layup or dunk for MJ.

Another was the dish to Love to seal the game.

He was in the post and I thought MJ would've scored in the same situation.

MJ would've made that warriors defense look very bad en route to 50 points with ease.

jordan shot 41% against defenses with a 101 drating or lower (huge sample size, compromised of 5 playoff series and a ton of regular season games that DONT include wizards jordan). aka the warriors defense. so no, actually, jordan wouldn't make their defense "look bad".

blind find =/= reality

[Roundball_Rock]

3ball, why are you (and other MJ stans) so insecure about LeBron and LeBron only? What is it about LeBron that has you shook? I don't see you posting threads about MJ versus Durant or MJ versus Harden. You guys stopped obsessing over Kobe years ago. So what is it about LeBron? I know the answer but I am curious to see if you are willing to admit what it is you are truly terrified about.


jordan shot 41% against defenses with a 101 drating or lower (huge sample size, compromised of 5 playoff series and a ton of regular season games that DONT include wizards jordan). aka the warriors defense. so no, actually, jordan wouldn't make their defense "look bad".


:D

[mehyaM24]

3ball, why are you (and other MJ stans) so insecure about LeBron and LeBron only? What is it about LeBron that has you shook? I don't see you posting threads about MJ versus Durant or MJ versus Harden.



:D
i think mj would have a few great games against them, but the fact is, there is no evidence to suggest he would be dropping 50 bombs (good efficiency) like they're nothing.

typical of mythologists to muck around in hyperbole. :oldlol:

[Dro]

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/layup-546b9345d2b6c.gif

^^there is nobody even contesting jordan at the 3pt line - but thats NOT what is deplorable - look at as jordan's drive to basket which is met with NO resistance or rim protection. :oldlol:

a) he passes on an open 3, with no defender in sight
b) no resistance at the hoop - free reign to do whatever (hence "the move" - which was completely unnecessary i might add).

this was in THE FINALS too.. honestly though? anyone can accumlate gifs and make judgements on mere snippets.. truth is, defensive rating is the best measure of defensive efficiency, and against sub 101 dratings (the norm for today's best defenses, and akin to the defense lebron destroyed in last nights game), jordan shot a timid 41% - he was regulated to an inefficient volume scorer.
lol, huh?

a. Vlade Divac is running at him. Sure Jordan has a second of being wide open but obviously he's smart enough to know that its Vlade Divac coming at him so he knew he would be able to beat him to the rim. All he did was a slight pump fake to get Vlade to bite and boom to the rim...

b. Obviously, the Center got caught running out to contest Jordan on the perimeter which is a huge reason there was no paint resistance.

C. Its freakin Jordan, he instilled fear into interior defenders which sounds pretty ridiculous but obviously true. Perkins b*tched out, didn't want to get put on a poster. Magic was guarding Pippen and blocked by Horace Grant for a second, by the time he got out the way, Jordan was in the air. Byron Scott did try to come over and contest because he was obviously looking at Jordan the entire time and even signaled there was an obvious mismatch...

So stop it, trying to completely twist the gif. Thats Jordan being smart enough to recognize an obvious mismatch and not take a low percent shot with a 7 footer running at you. Him being quick enough to get the rim and elevate and he has a rep for putting people on posters so yes, he's going to be uncontested at the rim MANY times, JUST LIKE VINCE. Yet you hold/ignore all these things..

Yeah people jump with Lebron because they are not scared of him like that. They're not scared to try to jump. Sure he overpowers them, thats his advantage and he uses it. But its not like he's putting people on posters consistently. He's just better skilled than everybody currently.

Your hate for MJ rivals 3Balls love for him tbh...

[Roundball_Rock]

i think mj would have a few great games against them, but the fact is, there is no evidence to suggest he would be dropping 50 bombs (good efficiency) like they're nothing.

typical of mythologists to muck around in hyperbole. :oldlol:

Yup. :oldlol: In another thread multiple MJ stans are arguing that rookie MJ would be the best player in the league today. In other words, that rookie MJ>prime LeBron as well as other players in their primes like Westbrook, Curry and Harden. The mythology astonishingly only gets more ridiculous over time.

[3ball]

so no, actually, jordan wouldn't make their defense "look bad".


All players fare worse against better defenses, but Jordan fared better in the playoffs against the top defenses than any player in history.

Lebron, Kobe, you name it - they fare MUCH WORSE than Jordan against the best playoff defenses.

Here's jordan stats against each top 5 ranked defense that he ever faced in the playoffs - no one comes close to this performance against elite playoff defenses:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=362242
.

[stephanieg]

He'd probably kill it, just like he did his father.

He can't control his killer instinct.

[mehyaM24]

Yup. :oldlol: In another thread multiple MJ stans are arguing that rookie MJ would be the best player in the league today. In other words, that rookie MJ>prime LeBron as well as other players in their primes like Westbrook, Curry and Harden. The mythology astonishingly only gets more ridiculous over time.

:biggums:


All players fare worse against better defenses, but Jordan fared better in the playoffs against the top defenses than any player in history.

Lebron, Kobe, you name it - they fare MUCH WORSE than Jordan against the best playoff defenses.

Here's jordan stats against each top 5 ranked defense that he ever faced in the playoffs - no one comes close to this performance against elite playoff defenses:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=362242
.
none of those defenses save for those late 90's teams which were ALL ~102 and/or lower in d-rating (no coincidence jordan shot bad in all but one of those series') would be top 5 defenses today. fact. literally.

[nba_55]

Isn't Jordan's D!ck getting old? Aren't you tired of it? Can it still get hard?

[Elosha]

You're fooling yourself if you don't believe Lebron would have still been a great scorer in the 80's and 90's. Open spacing or not, the man shoots threes and jumpers fairly well now, at least during the regular season. He's still extremely fast, powerful, and athletic. Merely crowding the lane isn't going to turn him from a 25-27 ppg player into a 20 ppg player. He'd still get his points, although his efficiency would likely take a hit.

But you're fooling yourself even more if you think today's "elite" defenses would stop Jordan and turn him into an inefficient shooter. Comparing the 92 and 93 Knicks, the 90's Pistons, or the 96 Sonics to a defense like Golden State's is just crazy. I don't care what kind of defensive "system" you put in place or what kind of defensive rating your team is ranked, there's no way in hell Klay Thompson, Curry, or the Golden State "system" is going to stop Jordan. If Jordan was in his prime and on his game, he would have shredded them just like Lebron did last night. Today's defenses are a far cry from dealing with yesteryear's handchecking, bruising physical contact and fouls, extremely good individual defenders, and great help defense, compared to today's moderate use of zones, player positioning and shading, help defense, soft fouls, and wide open lanes. Defenses today are different, and in some ways more sophisticated, but I'd never claim they were better. Go watch the Bulls battles with the Knicks or Pistons in the playoffs in the 90's and honestly tell me Golden State or any high ranked defensive team today matches up. They simply fail the eye test.

But ultimately, all this type of thread does is try to bait Lebron proponents against Jordan's. It does them both a disservice. Lebron played an incredible game last night, and it shouldn't be used as an indictment against him or today's era.

[mehyaM24]

You're fooling yourself if you don't believe Lebron would have still been a great scorer in the 80's and 90's. Open spacing or not, the man shoots threes and jumpers fairly well now, at least during the regular season. He's still extremely fast, powerful, and athletic. Merely crowding the lane isn't going to turn him from a 25-27 ppg player into a 20 ppg player. He'd still get his points, although his efficiency would likely take a hit.

But you're fooling yourself even more if you think today's "elite" defenses would stop Jordan and turn him into an inefficient shooter. Comparing the 92 and 93 Knicks, the 90's Pistons, or the 96 Sonics to a defense like Golden State's is just crazy. I don't care what kind of defensive "system" you put in place or what kind of defensive rating your team is ranked, there's no way in hell Klay Thompson, Curry, or the Golden State "system" is going to stop Jordan. If Jordan was in his prime and on his game, he would have shredded them just like Lebron did last night. Today's defenses are a far cry from dealing with yesteryear's handchecking, bruising physical contact and fouls, extremely good individual defenders, and great help defense, compareed to today's moderate use of zones, player positioning and shading, help defense, soft fouls, and wide open lanes. Defenses today are different, and in some ways more sophisticated, but I'd never claim they were better. Go watch the Bulls battles with the Knicks or Pistons in the playoffs and honestly tell me Golden State or any high ranked defensive team today matches up. They simply fail the eye test.

But ultimately, all this type of thread does is try to bait Lebron proponents against Jordan's. It does them both a disservice. Lebron played an incredible game last night, and it shouldn't be used as an indictment against him or today's era.

physical defense =/= efficient, and thereby better defense

the numbers don't back anything your soliloquy suggested. try again dude.

[Elosha]

physical defense =/= efficient, and thereby better defense

the numbers don't back anything your soliloquy suggested. try again dude.

So you honestly think a prime Jordan couldn't shoot better than 41% against Klay Thompson and Golden State. Really? And I assume you think his scoring would also fall off against such an incredible defensive system? Sorry, you couldn't have watched Jordan much if you think today's defensive schemes would slow him down.

Your defensive rating numbers are skewed by numerous rule changes that favor offensive players and the emphasis (I'd argue overemphasis) on the three point shot. You can't compare defensive ratings across eras when entirely different defensive strategies were employed.

I have no problem with crediting how teams are playing today, they are simply taking what the system allows. But to denigrate Jordan to prop up Lebron is ludicrous and smacks of just as much insecurity as you accuse others of having.

[Sakkreth]

none of these below are a travel - you just don't know your footwork - i'm guessing you don't play ball, or are really bad at it (not trying to be mean.. just making observation)



I'd beat you with my off hand alone.

Jordan had great footwork, but this was a travel (gif vs bucks) he lifted and landed his both feet before dribling.

Catches the ball. (http://i.imgur.com/7Rs5UsH.jpg)
Lifts his right foot. (http://i.imgur.com/8MbdYep.jpg)
Lifts his right foot.(pic to see that he actually did). (http://i.imgur.com/uBDFrTu.jpg)
Lands right foot lifts left. (you can call travel already) (http://i.imgur.com/sredX83.jpg)
Lands left, starting to lift right (ball still in hand) (http://i.imgur.com/x3TR78V.jpg)
Lifts right while pushing ball down to dribble. (http://i.imgur.com/SjNkZkR.jpg)

Travel.

[3ball]

you're way off mehtya24..

[3ball]

way off...

[3ball]

none of those defenses save for those late 90's teams which were ALL ~102 and/or lower in d-rating


This isn't how it works at all - you are either ignoring or simply don't understand the way Team ORtg and Opponent DRtg (they're the same number) are calculated: higher offensive rebounding and FT rates result in higher ORtg and DRtg.

Two-pointers have a higher offensive rebounding and FT rate than 3-pointers, so the higher proportion of two-pointers taken in previous eras caused ORtg and DRtg to be higher back then.

On the flipside, today's game takes far more 3-pointers, which have a lower offensive rebounding and FT rate, and therefore decrease Team ORtg and Opponent DRtg in the calculation.

This is why comparing ORtg and DRtg from one era to the next doesn't work - it's not apples to apples if one era shoots a lot of three-pointers and the other era doesn't.. but regardless, other than a brief period between 1999 and 2004, league-wide ORtg has remained between 106 and 108 for the last 35 years, so any statistical adjustment over this time period to account for discrepancies would be negligible..

Playing styles CHANGE over the eras and ORtg and DRtg calculations don't reflect these changes - that's why you can only look at what each player did against the top defenses of their time, and no one in history performed better against top defenses than Jordan, as the stats show:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=362242

and we know this performance was against legal paint-camping, no spacing, and a much higher level of physicality - simply a tougher environment than today.
.

[ShawkFactory]

you're way off mehtya24..
What point are you actually trying to make?

[mehyaM24]

So you honestly think a prime Jordan couldn't shoot better than 41% against Klay Thompson and Golden State. Really? And I assume you think his scoring would also fall off against such an incredible defensive system? Sorry, you couldn't have watched Jordan much if you think today's defensive schemes would slow him down.

Your defensive rating numbers are skewed by numerous rule changes that favor offensive players and the emphasis (I'd argue overemphasis) on the three point shot. You can't compare defensive ratings across eras when entirely different defensive strategies were employed.

I have no problem with crediting how teams are playing today, they are simply taking what the system allows. But to denigrate Jordan to prop up Lebron is ludicrous and smacks of just as much insecurity as you accuse others of having..
i think the numbers lay forward 'proof' that jordan wouldn't be as dominant as he was, or people CLAIM him to be, against defenses that are factually more efficient (allowing less points per possession).

it's not about what/how i feel, though - its what the facts & data cite.

[3ball]

I'd beat you with my off hand alone.


time and place - you name it.. no need for you to use your off-hand though.. i'll use MY off-hand and you can have an 8 point lead going to 11.





Jordan had great footwork, but this was a travel (gif vs bucks) he lifted and landed his both feet before dribling.

Catches the ball. (http://i.imgur.com/7Rs5UsH.jpg)
Lifts his right foot. (http://i.imgur.com/8MbdYep.jpg)
Lifts his right foot.(pic to see that he actually did). (http://i.imgur.com/uBDFrTu.jpg)
Lands right foot lifts left. (you can call travel already) (http://i.imgur.com/sredX83.jpg)
Lands left, starting to lift right (ball still in hand) (http://i.imgur.com/x3TR78V.jpg)
Lifts right while pushing ball down to dribble. (http://i.imgur.com/SjNkZkR.jpg)

Travel.


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/1b4e16f6ea41edb27cbb7c901e4fa5e1.gif


Jordan bended the rules all the time - look at the dunk above - almost another travel, but he's so quick, no ref could catch that...

And again, this is just another standard poster for Jordan that he makes look very easy... but this would be a play of the year for Westbrook and he'd make it look waaaaaaaaaay harder..

Of course, this assumes Westbrook could make the play to begin with, which he can't, just like the other Jordan GIFs earlier itt (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11069682&postcount=17)
.

[3ball]

.

defenses that are factually more efficient (allowing less points per possession).


Look dumbass - there is a reason why the 1989 Bad Boy Pistons had a higher DRTG (104.7) than today's lowly Charlotte Bobcats (103.0) - and it's not because it was easier to score on them.

You are ignoring how Team ORtg and Opponent DRtg are calculated - the higher proportion of two-pointers taken in previous eras had higher offensive rebounding and FT rates, which increases ORtg and DRtg in the calculation.

On the flipside, today's game takes far more 3-pointers, which have a lower offensive rebounding and FT rate, and therefore decrease ORtg and DRtg in the calculation.

You are clearly enjoying being inaccurate and ignoring the way the stat is ACTUALLY calculated.. But playing styles change and ORtg/DRtg calculations don't reflect these changes.. It's simply an erroneous approach to compare defenses in different eras based on DRtg - it's dumb actually..

The reality is that Jordan performed better against top-ranked playoff defenses than anyone in history, as the stats clearly show:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=362242

And we know this performance was against legal paint-camping, no spacing, and a much higher level of physicality - simply a tougher environment than today.
.

[KobesFinger]

Jordan

:applause:

[Roundball_Rock]

3ball, why was scoring so much higher in the 80's? Also, why do you keep ignoring the question about why you are insecure about LeBron? What is it that you fear from LeBron vis-a-vis MJ?

[Straight_Ballin]

probably kill his father tbh

Unlike Bron who never had a father?

Broken home raised beta and it still shows to this day. If Bron had a a father there's a 2/5 chance he would have met the same fate as Jordan's father for the same reasons.

[DatAsh]

3ball, why are you (and other MJ stans) so insecure about LeBron and LeBron only? What is it about LeBron that has you shook? I don't see you posting threads about MJ versus Durant or MJ versus Harden. You guys stopped obsessing over Kobe years ago. So what is it about LeBron? I know the answer but I am curious to see if you are willing to admit what it is you are truly terrified about.

:D

Kobe's career is pretty much done. Lebron is just 30, and his prime is pretty comparable to Jordan's.

[Foster5k]

As many have stated, in the past, Jordan would be completely unstoppable in today's NBA. Jordan's offensive ability was off the charts.

[3ball]

Lebron is just 30, and his prime is pretty comparable to Jordan's.


Jordan's prime consisted of a 3-peat with 3 Finals MVPs and thorough domination - this is not "pretty comparable" to Lebron's 2 rings and 2 Finals MVP's, a lower level of domination, and getting beat worse than anyone ever has in the Finals - Jordan's was way better, by any standard.

Lebron's playoff stats are also significantly worse than Jordan's, and his Finals stats are nowhere near.

So you are wrong - Lebron's prime does not match up to Jordan's.

[Straight_Ballin]

As many have stated, in the past, Jordan would be completely unstoppable in today's NBA. Jordan's offensive ability was off the charts.

Todays NBA? He would be unstoppable in any NBA. Only player with a more dominant peak is Shaq.

[Roundball_Rock]

Kobe's career is pretty much done. Lebron is just 30, and his prime is pretty comparable to Jordan's.

Yup. LeBron is a clear and present danger to MJ's status as the public GOAT--which is why they fear him. Shaq faded after 2002 and Kobe was not a strong challenger but LeBron is and shows no signs of slowing down.

MJ's age 30 season was 93', where he won another ring so it favors him to include 93' for MJ while 15' is not counted for LeBron because that season is in progress. However, let's look at their records at age 29.

MJ: 2 rings, 3 MVP's, 3 Finals, 5 ECF's, DPOY, 2 FMVP's
LJ: 2 rings, 4 MVP's, 5 Finals, 6 ECF's, 2 FMVP's

LeBron could very win another ring, MVP or FMVP this year.


Only player with a more dominant peak is Shaq.

Arguably KAJ and Wilt also. KAJ at his peak was something like 35/18/5/4 in the playoffs.

[SpanishACB]

the OP's gif is just an example of bad help defense

[3ball]

LeBron could very win another ring, MVP or FMVP this year.


Any Lebron comparison with Jordan relies on regular season accomplishments.

If we are talking about the playoffs, which is all that matters, there is no comparison - there is no period in Lebron's playoff career that matches Jordan's playoff performance.

Lebron's playoff performance is nowhere near Jordan's.. and btw, I will be doing as Finals stats thread for Lebron vs. Jordan soon... it will be ugly... fugly, actually, might be a better word.

[mehyaM24]

Any Lebron comparison with Jordan relies on regular season accomplishments.

If we are talking about the playoffs, which is all that matters, there is no comparison - there is no period in Lebron's playoff career that matches Jordan's playoff performance.

Lebron's playoff performance is nowhere near Jordan's.. and btw, I will be doing as Finals stats thread for Lebron vs. Jordan soon... it will be ugly... fugly, actually, might be a better word.
make sure you include their competition/defensive-rating, as lebron has faced MUCH better defenses in the finals.

thank you in advance

[Chief Keef]

Unlike Bron who never had a father?

Broken home raised beta and it still shows to this day. If Bron had a a father there's a 2/5 chance he would have met the same fate as Jordan's father for the same reasons.
What in the hell is this old man on about?

[Roundball_Rock]

Any Lebron comparison with Jordan relies on regular season accomplishments.

If we are talking about the playoffs, which is all that matters, there is no comparison - there is no period in Lebron's playoff career that matches Jordan's playoff performance.

After their age 29 season

Jordan: 2 rings, 2 Finals, 4 ECF's, 5 ECSF's, 3 losing records
LeBron: 2 rings, 5 Finals, 6 ECF's, 9 ECSF's, 1 losing record

[3ball]

After their age 29 season

Jordan: 2 rings, 2 Finals, 4 ECF's, 5 ECSF's, 3 losing records
LeBron: 2 rings, 5 Finals, 6 ECF's, 9 ECSF's, 1 losing record


The number of trophies is close, but Jordan had to do MUCH more to get his:


Thru Age 29 - Playoff Averages

Lebron: 28.0 PPG / 6.4 APG / 48.2% FG / 33.3% 3 PT
Jordan: 34.7 PPG / 6.6 APG / 50.1% FG / 35.2% 3 PT


Thru Age 29 - Finals Averages

Lebron: 24.1 PPG / 6.4 APG / 46.3% FG / 31.2% 3 PT
Jordan: 36.3 PPG / 7.9 APG / 52.6% FG / 40.7% 3 PT


In the Finals, Lebron needed 1.5 games to match 1 game of production from Jordan - an entire extra half of basketball.
.

[3ball]

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/911d3cac30b219754c53b4b156428f49.gif

Lebron has all the room and time that he needs to make his move because the spacing and rule changes have opened up the middle of the floor, as the league had intended (http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/04/09/stujackson/index.html) - look how far defenders must help from, and look how wide open the paint remains on a perpetual basis.. Previous era players never had this much room or time.



Compare the difference.. The GIF above shows how the spacing gives Lebron tons of time and room to make his move.. Otoh, the GIF's below show MJ having to deal with paint-campers (David Robinson, Duncan, Ostertag) and also defenders helping from closer distances (no spacing) - accordingly, he has to ACT FASTER, and use a superior move:


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/af74f33851c4e8d2c698212f0a5f174b.gif

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/96dab71086245b7d9abe001570cf9cf8.gif


In today's game, the paint and at-rim percentages of all players are inflated compared to previous eras due to the hand-check/physicality ban, spacing and defensive 3 seconds, which were all designed to (http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/04/09/stujackson/index.html) make penetration easier and open up the middle of the floor.

Otoh, in Jordan's day, defenders waited in the paint on penetration and could help from closer distances on the post because there was no spacing and paint-camping was legal.. All coaches in previous eras foolishly ran offenses that didn't shoot threes and positioned players close to the rim, which activated legal-paint camping, as stipulated in Rule 2b (http://nbahoopsonline.com/History/Leagues/NBA/Rules/Fouls.html) of the Illegal Defense Guidelines - this rule allowed defenders to paint-camp with no time restriction if their man was in the paint already, or within 3 feet of either side.
.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

stop deleting your posts and then posting them again just to bump the thread

[ImKobe]

make sure you include their competition/defensive-rating, as lebron has faced MUCH better defenses in the finals.

thank you in advance

oh wow, you can read numbers on the internet :facepalm

how about make some actual arguments within the game itself like showing us HOW the defenses are so much better in this era, where there's a lot more spacing due to increased 3pt shooting.

And I LOVE how you only talk about the Finals because Jordan did face high-tempo offenses in the Finals that liked to play at a higher pace, which leads to more scoring and more transition opportunities, usually for both teams, hence the worse DRTG.

And the stat alone is useless, because the opponents/style of play is different, what are those numbers really going to tell you? That a certain 90s team allowed more points playing teams from their era than a team from the 2010s against their competition? Wow, that clears EVERYTHING up :biggums:

MJ was crushing defenses before he even had a solid jump shot because he's just that much better at finishing at the rim and getting to the line and finishing through contact and the amount of dunks he had per season in the late 80s/early 90s when defenses were able to just pack the paint, it didn't matter.

Jordan is 6 out of 6 in the NBA Finals, he's never allowed a Game 7 in the Finals. He is the FMVP of all of the Finals series he competed in. His averages shit on any other perimeter player's numbers. It took 18 years before someone else put up 32+ ppg/5+ rpg/7+ apg for an entire Finals series (hint:it wasn't Lebron).

[mehyaM24]

oh wow, you can read numbers on the internet :facepalm

how about make some actual arguments within the game itself like showing us HOW the defenses are so much better in this era, where there's a lot more spacing due to increased 3pt shooting.

And I LOVE how you only talk about the Finals because Jordan did face high-tempo offenses in the Finals that liked to play at a higher pace, which leads to more scoring and more transition opportunities, usually for both teams, hence the worse DRTG.

And the stat alone is useless, because the opponents/style of play is different, what are those numbers really going to tell you? That a certain 90s team allowed more points playing teams from their era than a team from the 2010s against their competition? Wow, that clears EVERYTHING up :biggums:

MJ was crushing defenses before he even had a solid jump shot because he's just that much better at finishing at the rim and getting to the line and finishing through contact and the amount of dunks he had per season in the late 80s/early 90s when defenses were able to just pack the paint, it didn't matter.

Jordan is 6 out of 6 in the NBA Finals, he's never allowed a Game 7 in the Finals. He is the FMVP of all of the Finals series he competed in. His averages shit on any other perimeter player's numbers. It took 18 years before someone else put up 32+ ppg/5+ rpg/7+ apg for an entire Finals series (hint:it wasn't Lebron).
Rent free. You madd?

[dude77]

lebron is trash next to jordan .. getting punked in the finals .. getting SWEPT in the finals ..

jordan shits all over lebron in playoff performances .. when it counts .. jordan did everything in his power to will his team to titles and he never lost one .. never came close to losing one ..

meanwhile lebron's getting swept by sa and gets destroyed by them again last year .. owned by the spurs on the biggest stage .. better than jordan ? goat ? enough with the jokes .. what team ever owned jordan in the finals ? ..

that horrid, inexcusable performance in 2011 against dallas that cost them the title shut the door on any goat talks .. and on and on and on .. lebron's postseason is full of shortcomings .. full of them .. 2/5 .. a ray allen miss away from 1/5 .. he's a joke .. enough with these retarded comparisons .. there is no comparison ..

jordan was clutch and came through every single time in the postseason and he's PERFECT .. I really don't get people putting him above jordan .. y'all gotta be trolls is the only conclusion .. that beta faag should never be uttered in the same sentence as jordan

[ralph_i_el]

not a travel at all - know your footwork..

infact, it's a very standard move for MJ.. albiet, it's a play of the year for others:


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/0552c6acb1b36da6ff0cabd5d003ff65.gif


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/750cee2af2de8a095021bb19b0d5003b.gif

More travels!

[roldy]

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/911d3cac30b219754c53b4b156428f49.gif

Lebron has all the room and time that he needs to make his move because the spacing and rule changes have opened up the middle of the floor, as the league had intended - look how far defenders must help from, and look how wide open the paint remains on a perpetual basis.. Previous era players never had this much room OR time.

As you can see, it's easier than ever to run 1-on-1 plays in today's game - the actual success rate of 1-on-1 hasn't been diminished at all.. It's just that the spacing and rule changes have made penetration automatic and improved the effectiveness of ball movement - consequently, the success rate of high screen/drive-and-kick or other types of penetration and ball movement have surpassed the success rate of 1-on-1 for all but the top players.

Naturally, only the top players go 1-on-1 consistently and frequently - for the rest of the players, it now makes more sense to move the ball and run some boring high screen to get the automatic penetration and initiate the ball movement.. This is why the average player in previous eras had more play-creating ability than today's players - other than the top players, today's average player at the 2-5 spots is just a play-finisher.
.

Michael Jordan would never have to deal with this situation because Harrison Barnes would have been called for illegal defense when the shotclock was at 12. His player was way out at the 3 point line and he was below the free throw line.

Someone close the thread.

[Chadwin]

no paint-camping center to help out

[warriorfan]

lebron is trash next to jordan .. getting punked in the finals .. getting SWEPT in the finals ..

jordan shits all over lebron in playoff performances .. when it counts .. jordan did everything in his power to will his team to titles and he never lost one .. never came close to losing one ..

meanwhile lebron's getting swept by sa and gets destroyed by them again last year .. owned by the spurs on the biggest stage .. better than jordan ? goat ? enough with the jokes .. what team ever owned jordan in the finals ? ..

that horrid, inexcusable performance in 2011 against dallas that cost them the title shut the door on any goat talks .. and on and on and on .. lebron's postseason is full of shortcomings .. full of them .. 2/5 .. a ray allen miss away from 1/5 .. he's a joke .. enough with these retarded comparisons .. there is no comparison ..

jordan was clutch and came through every single time in the postseason and he's PERFECT .. I really don't get people putting him above jordan .. y'all gotta be trolls is the only conclusion .. that beta faag should never be uttered in the same sentence as jordan

ether

[ralph_i_el]

lebron is trash next to jordan .. getting punked in the finals .. getting SWEPT in the finals ..

jordan shits all over lebron in playoff performances .. when it counts .. jordan did everything in his power to will his team to titles and he never lost one .. never came close to losing one ..

meanwhile lebron's getting swept by sa and gets destroyed by them again last year .. owned by the spurs on the biggest stage .. better than jordan ? goat ? enough with the jokes .. what team ever owned jordan in the finals ? ..

that horrid, inexcusable performance in 2011 against dallas that cost them the title shut the door on any goat talks .. and on and on and on .. lebron's postseason is full of shortcomings .. full of them .. 2/5 .. a ray allen miss away from 1/5 .. he's a joke .. enough with these retarded comparisons .. there is no comparison ..

jordan was clutch and came through every single time in the postseason and he's PERFECT .. I really don't get people putting him above jordan .. y'all gotta be trolls is the only conclusion .. that beta faag should never be uttered in the same sentence as jordan

MJ was "Perfect" except for when he was losing and getting swept IN THE FIRST ROUND...at the same age Lebron was "embarassing" himself by getting swept in the FINALS.

MJ lost plenty of titles by not even making the finals. Or by quitting BBall and not even trying.
He was never "perfect" until he had HoF Pippen and Phil running the triangle

[Roundball_Rock]

The MJythology is unreal. People like the guy you quoted talk about him in the way cultists talk about their leader.

[dude77]

MJ was "Perfect" except for when he was losing and getting swept IN THE FIRST ROUND...at the same age Lebron was "embarassing" himself by getting swept in the FINALS.

MJ lost plenty of titles by not even making the finals. Or by quitting BBall and not even trying.
He was never "perfect" until he had HoF Pippen and Phil running the triangle

whatever you can come up with jordan doesn't compare with the failures of lebron so why are you or anyone else in this thread even trying ?? .. you're making yourself look fkn dumb .. lebron is beta fggt who ran like a bitch to form a super team and STILL got destroyed multiple times now on the biggest stage .. it happened ..as much as you fanboys want to try to push it aside ..

no bigger indicator than your performance on the BIGGEST STAGE .. you can argue all you want about jordan losing in earlier rounds with shit teams all you want .. big surprise there .. that doesn't mean anything .. everyone needs a good team around them ..

the fact is .. jordan has every damn edge on the balding beta when it comes to coming through when it counts .. kills him in stats and EVERYTIME he got to the big game(or series in bball), where the PRESSURE IS GREATEST and the world is watching, he delivered time and time again and never lost or came close to losing .. that is how it went down .. just like it went down that lebron got swept in the finals .. and lost 3 times .. all in EMBARRASSING fashion, getting destroyed .. and he's a ray allen miracle shot from being 1/5 .. not to mention the dallas chokejob ..

talk about lebron and how he's doing now all you want .. but stop mentioning lebron in the same sentence as jordan because he doesn't belong anywhere near there

[Milbuck]

LeBron James.

[ralph_i_el]

what is this 'mythology' bullshit about ?? are you arguing jordan never accomplished what he accomplished ?? :facepalm ..

facts are facts .. jordan has 10 scoring titles .. 10 fkn scoring titles out of 12 years .. would've been 12 STRAIGHT SCORING TITLES had he not retired .. are you fkn kidding me ?? .. he utterly dominated the god damn league for 10 straight years .. basically an entire decade all jordan all the time .. you would know this if you were around ??:confusedshrug: .. no player around sniffs that type of domination since .. lets not get into his playoff stats .. and he's 6 for 6 in nba finals where he was the MVP IN ALL OF THEM .. 6 titles in 8 yrs .. a legit chance it could've been 8 straight titles .. again I ask, what in the fk is this mythology bullshit ??

the fact that people are actually attempting to compare lebron to that ^^ lets me know either these people are very young or just don't know wtf they're talking about
yeah I'm sure taking 2 entire seasons of rest didn't help him lead the league in scoring and win chips when he did play :rolleyes:

[dude77]

The MJythology is unreal. People like the guy you quoted talk about him in the way cultists talk about their leader.

what is this 'mythology' bullshit about ?? are you arguing jordan never accomplished what he accomplished ?? :facepalm ..

I'm not even a jordan fan or a bulls fan .. I hated the guy when he was playing .. so this has nothing to do with being a 'jordan fanboy' .. I was never even a fan of that team or him .. he was the god damn enemy .. but facts are just facts ..

jordan has 10 scoring titles .. 10 fkn scoring titles out of 12 years .. would've been 12 STRAIGHT SCORING TITLES had he not retired .. are you fkn kidding me ?? .. he utterly dominated the god damn league for 10 straight years .. basically an entire decade all jordan all the time .. you would know this if you were around ??:confusedshrug: .. no player around sniffs that type of domination since .. lets not get into his playoff stats .. and he's 6 for 6 in nba finals where he was the MVP IN ALL OF THEM .. 6 titles in 8 yrs .. a legit chance it could've been 8 straight titles .. again I ask, what in the fk is this mythology bullshit ??

the fact that people are actually attempting to compare lebron to that ^^ lets me know either these people are very young or just don't know wtf they're talking about

[dude77]

yeah I'm sure taking 2 entire seasons of rest didn't help him lead the league in scoring and win chips when he did play :rolleyes:

just wow lol .. what's next .. you're gonna nitpick his scoring avgs ? .. how do you explain the 7 straight scoring titles before that ?? .. you're nitpicking uncomparable success .. you're nitpicking someone else's success when that success is head and shoulders above anyone else's ... quit while you're behind .. you're embarrassing yourself ..

read that other post again, absorb it and keep asking yourself 'why am I trying to compare lebron to that when there is no possible comparison?'

[ralph_i_el]

what is this 'mythology' bullshit about ?? are you arguing jordan never accomplished what he accomplished ?? :facepalm ..

I'm not even a jordan fan or a bulls fan .. I hated the guy when he was playing .. so this has nothing to do with being a 'jordan fanboy' .. I was never even a fan of that team or him .. he was the god damn enemy .. but facts are just facts ..

jordan has 10 scoring titles .. 10 fkn scoring titles out of 12 years .. would've been 12 STRAIGHT SCORING TITLES had he not retired .. are you fkn kidding me ?? .. he utterly dominated the god damn league for 10 straight years .. basically an entire decade all jordan all the time .. you would know this if you were around ??:confusedshrug: .. no player around sniffs that type of domination since .. lets not get into his playoff stats .. and he's 6 for 6 in nba finals where he was the MVP IN ALL OF THEM .. 6 titles in 8 yrs .. a legit chance it could've been 8 straight titles .. again I ask, what in the fk is this mythology bullshit ??

the fact that people are actually attempting to compare lebron to that ^^ lets me know either these people are very young or just don't know wtf they're talking about

You are needlessly freaking out dude.

I'm just trying to provide a counterpoint to all the MJ worship and insane LeBron bashing.

MJ won 6/6 times in the finals. He also lost early and badly in the playoffs at the beginning of his career, and had a period where people said he couldn't win a chip (like LeBron).

LeBron and MJ both went through periods where they had very little support from their teams. LeBron was more successful with less (finals run, no first round losses), but his run of bad support lasted longer than it did for MJ. MJ got the support he needed, Bron had to go to Miami to get a good team.

Lebron has gone to the finals 5 times....at age 29. That's pretty ridiculous. He'll be going more times, and I'd bet on 1 or 2 more chips. Remember, MJ took an entire season of rest in between 3 peats. How much better did Bron look after 2 WEEKS of rest this season after a bunch of seasons with long playoff runs?

at age 29, LeBron and MJ had won 63% and 62% of their playoff games, respectively. They have a 1 championship difference at that age, and LeBron has been to the finals more times.


Here's the thing....I hate LeBron. I don't like watching his style of play. I think he's a clown of a locker room presence. He's fickle and inconsistent like a teenage girl. He's not the type of person I would be friends with. I wouldn't want to be his teammate. I'm just not blind to how insanely effective he's been his entire career.


I'd rather play with MJ, even though I'm 100% sure we'd have a practice brawl and I'd get socked like Steve Kerr (I'm a quiet guy and I like to keep to myself, but when I played college water polo I had a rep in our conference as somebody who was more likely to snap than to back down). If I played with Bron I'd be the one socking him in practice for posting team business on social media, then I'd get my ass traded to Minnesota.

[3ball]

at age 29, LeBron and MJ had won 63% and 62% of their playoff games, respectively. They have a 1 championship difference at that age, and LeBron has been to the finals more times.


You're right - their accolades and hardware are close, but to GET those accolades, MJ had to produce more for his teams than Lebron did - A LOT more:


Playoff Averages Thru Age 29:

Lebron: 28.0 PPG / 6.4 APG / 57.8% TS / 33.3% 3 PT
Jordan: 34.7 PPG / 6.6 APG / 58.1% TS / 35.2% 3 PT


Finals Averages Thru Age 29:

Lebron: 24.1 PPG / 6.4 APG / 46.3% FG / 31.2% 3 PT
Jordan: 36.3 PPG / 7.9 APG / 52.6% FG / 40.7% 3 PT


Source: basketball-reference.com

[3ball]

what is this 'mythology' bullshit about ?? are you arguing jordan never accomplished what he accomplished ?? :facepalm ..

jordan has 10 scoring titles .. 10 fkn scoring titles out of 12 years .. would've been 12 STRAIGHT SCORING TITLES had he not retired .. are you fkn kidding me ?? .. he utterly dominated the god damn league for 10 straight years .. basically an entire decade all jordan all the time .. you would know this if you were around ??:confusedshrug: .. no player around sniffs that type of domination since .. lets not get into his playoff stats .. and he's 6 for 6 in nba finals where he was the MVP IN ALL OF THEM .. 6 titles in 8 yrs.. a legit chance it could've been 8 straight titles .. again I ask, what in the fk is this mythology bullshit ??

the fact that people are actually attempting to compare lebron to that ^^ lets me know either these people are very young or just don't know wtf they're talking about


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/96dab71086245b7d9abe001570cf9cf8.gif


In the play above, Ostertag is out of armslength of his man.. So under today's new defensive 3 seconds rule (http://www.nba.com/nba101/misunderstood_0708.html), Ostertag would need to abandon the paint and wouldn't be allowed to camp under the rim.

Accordingly, MJ would have an open layup after shedding Hornacek in today's game - he wouldn't have to finish on any paint-campers waiting at the rim.
.

[Kvnzhangyay]

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/96dab71086245b7d9abe001570cf9cf8.gif


In the play above, Ostertag is out of armslength of his man.. So under today's new defensive 3 seconds rule (http://www.nba.com/nba101/misunderstood_0708.html), Ostertag would need to abandon the paint and wouldn't be allowed to camp under the rim.

Accordingly, MJ would have an open layup after shedding Hornacek in today's game - he wouldn't have to finish on any paint-campers waiting at the rim.
.

So your whole argument rests on the presumption that hypothetically Ostertag wouldn't be under the rim?

[Hey Yo]

Michael Jordan would never have to deal with this situation because Harrison Barnes would have been called for illegal defense when the shotclock was at 12. His player was way out at the 3 point line and he was below the free throw line.

Someone close the thread.
Of course 3ball has no answer to this overlooked nugget of info.

[3ball]

Of course 3ball has no answer to this overlooked nugget of info.


today's defenders ALSO cannot go below the FT line for more than 3 seconds when their man is behind the 3-point line... it's called the defensive 3 seconds rule.

So it's not a "nugget" of info ignoramus.. it's just info.

[3ball]

So your whole argument rests on the presumption that hypothetically Ostertag wouldn't be under the rim?


The legal paint-camping allowed by Rule 2b (http://nbahoopsonline.com/History/Leagues/NBA/Rules/Fouls.html) of the Illegal Defense Guidelines is only part of the equation.

Spacing and rule changes are the other parts..

The spacing spread out defenders, forced them to help from further distances, and also created better driving and passing lanes.

The rule changes consisted of the ban on paint-camping and hand-checking, which were designed to (http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/04/09/stujackson/index.html) make penetration easier and open up the middle of the floor, respectively.

[Hey Yo]

today's defenders ALSO cannot go below the FT line for more than 3 seconds when their man is behind the 3-point line... it's called the defensive 3 seconds rule.

So it's not a "nugget" of info ignoramus.. it's just info.
Then why post that GIF in the first place when trying to make your point, ignoramus?

[3ball]

Then why post that GIF in the first place when trying to make your point, ignoramus?
Ostertag is out of armslength of his man.. So under today's new defensive 3 seconds rule (http://www.nba.com/nba101/misunderstood_0708.html), Ostertag would need to abandon the paint and wouldn't be allowed to camp under the rim.

Accordingly, MJ would have an open layup after shedding Hornacek in today's game - he wouldn't have to finish on any paint-campers waiting at the rim.

Previous eras had legal paint-camping, whereas all paint-camping has been eliminated in today's game due to the "armslength" requirement in the new defensive 3 seconds rule.

[3ball]

Then why post that GIF in the first place when trying to make your point, ignoramus?
Here, I'll give you another example..

[3ball]

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/b209aeddf6bfaaa9fcaed8eea3c72c65.gif


In this clip, Klay Thompson's dad (#43 in the middle of lane) would get a tech in today's game because his man is out of armslength (http://www.nba.com/nba101/misunderstood_0708.html) (and today's defensive 3 seconds rule says you can't stay in the paint if your man is out of armslength).

Keep in mind that a man's arm is only 3 feet long, but the paint is 16 feet wide.. So today's armslength rule requires defenders to cling to their man at all times even when both players are inside the paint.

For example, in today's game, a defender cannot stand under the rim when their man is 8 feet away at the edge of the paint - the defender must go stand right beside his man to remain within armslength..

But in previous eras, Rule 2b (http://nbahoopsonline.com/History/Leagues/NBA/Rules/Fouls.html) allowed defenders to stay in the lane with no time restriction if their man was in the paint already, or within 3 feet of either side.. Again, the paint is 16 feet wide, so defenders could technically be 19 feet away from their man and still stay in the lane.

Accordingly, previous era defenders COULD stand right under the rim when their man was 8 feet away on the edge of the paint (and well out of armslength reach) - this is seen in the GIF above... it's a pretty big difference from today's defenders, who must tippy-toe in and out of the lane to abide by the armslength rule..

[3ball]

http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/96dab71086245b7d9abe001570cf9cf8.gif


In the play above, Ostertag is out of armslength of his man.. So under today's new defensive 3 seconds rule (http://www.nba.com/nba101/misunderstood_0708.html), Ostertag would need to abandon the paint and wouldn't be allowed to camp under the rim.

Accordingly, MJ would have an open layup after shedding Hornacek in today's game - he wouldn't have to finish on any paint-campers waiting at the rim.
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In b4 complaints about MJ being guarded by Hornacek.. :facepalm.. MJ was guarded more often by Shandon Anderson or Byron Russell, not that it matters.

MJ "shed" any and all defenders in the same spot, including DPOY Michael Cooper (notice AC Green paint-camping without a worry in the world):


http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/638675af419b9050031f331b9fec7a15.gif


This GIF could become part of a future thread - "Jordan FG's on DPOY Michael Cooper" - similar to previous threads done for Dennis Rodman (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=359858) and Kobe Bryant (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=365450).