LBJ/MJ best series' vs defenses that allow less ~100 points per 100 possessions

[mehyaM24]

LeBron & Jordan vs Defenses that allow less than 100 points per 100 possessions (<100 DRtg):


lebron vs 2011 bulls (100 DRtg):
26PTS / 8REB / 7AST on ~45% shooting

lebron vs 2011 celtics (100 DRtg):
28PTS / 8REB / 4AST on ~47% shooting

lebron vs 2012 celtics (98 DRtg):
34PTS / 11REB / 4AST on ~54% shooting

lebron vs 2013 pacers (99 DRtg):
29PTS / 7REB / 5AST on ~51% shooting

lebron vs 2014 pacers (99 DRtg):
23PTS / 6REB / 6AST on ~56% shooting


jordan vs 1993 knicks (99 DRtg):
32PTS / 7REB / 6AST on ~40% shooting

jordan vs 1997 heat (100 DRtg):
30PTS / 8.0REB | 3AST on ~38% shooting

lebron's greatness & efficiency are unabated by these defensive juggernauts. :eek:

[lilteapot]

IDK if 3ball was created to parody OP or if it's the other way around or if they're the same person

[mehyaM24]

some great individual highlights against a couple of the teams i posted above:

lebron's 30 point triple-double vs 2013 pacers
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXaRCE94KqA

lebron's 45/15/5 elimination game vs the 2012 celtics
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-VzBeOrdAg

:pimp:

[24-Inch_Chrome]

Reverse 3ball, maybe they'll cancel each other out?

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

That Gm 6 and overall series LeBron had versus Boston was INSANE.

Probably the greatest individual playoff series I've seen since since Shaq against the Pacers in 2000.

[mehyaM24]

That Gm 6 and overall series LeBron had versus Boston was INSANE.

Probably the greatest individual playoff series I've seen since since Shaq against the Pacers in 2000.

true. shaq might be my favorite player all-time, but i still would have to go with lebron because of the all-around play and heavy-lifting he did with his back against the wall.
peak shaq was a fvcking legend though. :applause:

[Lebron23]

http://cdn.tss.uproxx.com/TSS/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Horizontal_1398742250.jpg

http://images.mstarz.com/data/images/full/37431/487235143-jpg.jpg

http://theharlemtimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Jordan-Lebron1.jpg

[ImKobe]

That Gm 6 and overall series LeBron had versus Boston was INSANE.

Probably the greatest individual playoff series I've seen since since Shaq against the Pacers in 2000.

lol he was guarded by Brandon fricken Bass and the series was only that close because Heat choked previous games with missed FTs and Bosh was injured

[3ball]

Look dumbass - there is a reason why the 1989 Bad Boy Pistons had a higher DRTG (104.7) than today's lowly Charlotte Bobcats (103.0) - and it's not because it was easier to score on them.

You are ignoring how Team ORtg and Opponent DRtg are calculated - the higher proportion of two-pointers taken in previous eras had higher offensive rebounding and FT rates, which increases ORtg and DRtg in the calculation.

On the flipside, today's game takes far more 3-pointers, which have a lower offensive rebounding and FT rate, and therefore decrease ORtg and DRtg in the calculation.

You are clearly enjoying being inaccurate and ignoring the way the stat is ACTUALLY calculated.. But playing styles change and ORtg/DRtg calculations don't reflect these changes.. It's simply an erroneous approach to compare defenses in different eras based on DRtg - it's dumb actually..

The reality is that Jordan performed better against top-ranked playoff defenses than anyone in history, as the stats clearly show:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=362242

And we know this performance was against legal paint-camping, no spacing, and a much higher level of physicality - simply a tougher environment than today.

[Cocaine80s]

Look dumbass - there is a reason why the 1989 Bad Boy Pistons had a higher DRTG (104.7) than today's lowly Charlotte Bobcats (103.0) - and it's not because it was easier to score on them.

You are ignoring how Team ORtg and Opponent DRtg are calculated - the higher proportion of two-pointers taken in previous eras had higher offensive rebounding and FT rates, which increases ORtg and DRtg in the calculation.

On the flipside, today's game takes far more 3-pointers, which have a lower offensive rebounding and FT rate, and therefore decrease ORtg and DRtg in the calculation.

You are clearly enjoying being inaccurate and ignoring the way the stat is ACTUALLY calculated.. But playing styles change and ORtg/DRtg calculations don't reflect these changes.. It's simply an erroneous approach to compare defenses in different eras based on DRtg - it's dumb actually..

The reality is that Jordan performed better against top-ranked playoff defenses than anyone in history, as the stats clearly show:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=362242

And we know this performance was against legal paint-camping, no spacing, and a much higher level of physicality - simply a tougher environment than today.

[SouBeachTalents]

Look dumbass - there is a reason why the 1989 Bad Boy Pistons had a higher DRTG (104.7) than today's lowly Charlotte Bobcats (103.0) - and it's not because it was easier to score on them.

You are ignoring how Team ORtg and Opponent DRtg are calculated - the higher proportion of two-pointers taken in previous eras had higher offensive rebounding and FT rates, which increases ORtg and DRtg in the calculation.

On the flipside, today's game takes far more 3-pointers, which have a lower offensive rebounding and FT rate, and therefore decrease ORtg and DRtg in the calculation.

You are clearly enjoying being inaccurate and ignoring the way the stat is ACTUALLY calculated.. But playing styles change and ORtg/DRtg calculations don't reflect these changes.. It's simply an erroneous approach to compare defenses in different eras based on DRtg - it's dumb actually..

The reality is that Jordan performed better against top-ranked playoff defenses than anyone in history, as the stats clearly show:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=362242

And we know this performance was against legal paint-camping, no spacing, and a much higher level of physicality - simply a tougher environment than today.

[T_L_P]

Look dumbass - there is a reason why the 1989 Bad Boy Pistons had a higher DRTG (104.7) than today's lowly Charlotte Bobcats (103.0) - and it's not because it was easier to score on them.

You are ignoring how Team ORtg and Opponent DRtg are calculated - the higher proportion of two-pointers taken in previous eras had higher offensive rebounding and FT rates, which increases ORtg and DRtg in the calculation.

On the flipside, today's game takes far more 3-pointers, which have a lower offensive rebounding and FT rate, and therefore decrease ORtg and DRtg in the calculation.

You are clearly enjoying being inaccurate and ignoring the way the stat is ACTUALLY calculated.. But playing styles change and ORtg/DRtg calculations don't reflect these changes.. It's simply an erroneous approach to compare defenses in different eras based on DRtg - it's dumb actually..

The reality is that Jordan performed better against top-ranked playoff defenses than anyone in history, as the stats clearly show:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=362242

And we know this performance was against legal paint-camping, no spacing, and a much higher level of physicality - simply a tougher environment than today.

[ArbitraryWater]

Look dumbass - there is a reason why the 1989 Bad Boy Pistons had a higher DRTG (104.7) than today's lowly Charlotte Bobcats (103.0) - and it's not because it was easier to score on them.

You are ignoring how Team ORtg and Opponent DRtg are calculated - the higher proportion of two-pointers taken in previous eras had higher offensive rebounding and FT rates, which increases ORtg and DRtg in the calculation.

On the flipside, today's game takes far more 3-pointers, which have a lower offensive rebounding and FT rate, and therefore decrease ORtg and DRtg in the calculation.

You are clearly enjoying being inaccurate and ignoring the way the stat is ACTUALLY calculated.. But playing styles change and ORtg/DRtg calculations don't reflect these changes.. It's simply an erroneous approach to compare defenses in different eras based on DRtg - it's dumb actually..

The reality is that Jordan performed better against top-ranked playoff defenses than anyone in history, as the stats clearly show:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=362242

And we know this performance was against legal paint-camping, no spacing, and a much higher level of physicality - simply a tougher environment than today.

[mehyaM24]

actually, drtg estimates how many points said team averages per possessions when faced on the court.

the differences in 3pt and 2pt are irrelevant here as they hinder an ORtg (this is why ORtg is lower across the board - more 3PA --> tougher FGA --> less inflated percentages with mere short/midrange 2PT shots).

the core of drtg calcultes an individual defensive stop - stops take into account teams ending their oppositions possession, which are then noted in the boxscore. additionally, it accounts for the number of forced turnovers and forced misses by the player which aren't captured by steals and blocks.

pm me if you need more advice on how to use DRtg, 3ball (and others).

[lilteapot]

Look dumbass - there is a reason why the 1989 Bad Boy Pistons had a higher DRTG (104.7) than today's lowly Charlotte Bobcats (103.0) - and it's not because it was easier to score on them.

You are ignoring how Team ORtg and Opponent DRtg are calculated - the higher proportion of two-pointers taken in previous eras had higher offensive rebounding and FT rates, which increases ORtg and DRtg in the calculation.

On the flipside, today's game takes far more 3-pointers, which have a lower offensive rebounding and FT rate, and therefore decrease ORtg and DRtg in the calculation.

You are clearly enjoying being inaccurate and ignoring the way the stat is ACTUALLY calculated.. But playing styles change and ORtg/DRtg calculations don't reflect these changes.. It's simply an erroneous approach to compare defenses in different eras based on DRtg - it's dumb actually..

The reality is that Jordan performed better against top-ranked playoff defenses than anyone in history, as the stats clearly show:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=362242

And we know this performance was against legal paint-camping, no spacing, and a much higher level of physicality - simply a tougher environment than today.

Look dumbass - there is a reason why the 1989 Bad Boy Pistons had a higher DRTG (104.7) than today's lowly Charlotte Bobcats (103.0) - and it's not because it was easier to score on them.

You are ignoring how Team ORtg and Opponent DRtg are calculated - the higher proportion of two-pointers taken in previous eras had higher offensive rebounding and FT rates, which increases ORtg and DRtg in the calculation.

On the flipside, today's game takes far more 3-pointers, which have a lower offensive rebounding and FT rate, and therefore decrease ORtg and DRtg in the calculation.

You are clearly enjoying being inaccurate and ignoring the way the stat is ACTUALLY calculated.. But playing styles change and ORtg/DRtg calculations don't reflect these changes.. It's simply an erroneous approach to compare defenses in different eras based on DRtg - it's dumb actually..

The reality is that Jordan performed better against top-ranked playoff defenses than anyone in history, as the stats clearly show:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=362242

And we know this performance was against legal paint-camping, no spacing, and a much higher level of physicality - simply a tougher environment than today.

Look dumbass - there is a reason why the 1989 Bad Boy Pistons had a higher DRTG (104.7) than today's lowly Charlotte Bobcats (103.0) - and it's not because it was easier to score on them.

You are ignoring how Team ORtg and Opponent DRtg are calculated - the higher proportion of two-pointers taken in previous eras had higher offensive rebounding and FT rates, which increases ORtg and DRtg in the calculation.

On the flipside, today's game takes far more 3-pointers, which have a lower offensive rebounding and FT rate, and therefore decrease ORtg and DRtg in the calculation.

You are clearly enjoying being inaccurate and ignoring the way the stat is ACTUALLY calculated.. But playing styles change and ORtg/DRtg calculations don't reflect these changes.. It's simply an erroneous approach to compare defenses in different eras based on DRtg - it's dumb actually..

The reality is that Jordan performed better against top-ranked playoff defenses than anyone in history, as the stats clearly show:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=362242

And we know this performance was against legal paint-camping, no spacing, and a much higher level of physicality - simply a tougher environment than today.

[ImKobe]

actually, drtg estimates how many points said team averages per possessions when faced on the court.

the differences in 3pt and 2pt are irrelevant here as they hinder an ORtg (this is why ORtg is lower across the board - more 3PA --> tougher FGA --> less inflated percentages with mere short/midrange 2PT shots).

the core of drtg calcultes an individual defensive stop - stops take into account teams ending their oppositions possession, which are then noted in the boxscore. additionally, it accounts for the number of forced turnovers and forced misses by the player which aren't captured by steals and blocks.

pm me if you need more advice on how to use DRtg, 3ball (and others).

Pace used to be higher in the 80s, more breakaway dunks/layups/defenses didn't get to set up as many times etc, teams scored at a more effective rate as a result, but that doesn't mean they were a weak defense in the half court compared to your average NBA team today...

and overall DRTG doesn't really prove shit when a team plays 82 games and against a lot of different teams, you need to take match-ups into account and how a player was defended. Jordan was going up against 3-4 defenders in the paint while Bran was being guarded by weak defenders like Brandon Bass and Kevin Durant and was dared to shoot open jump shots.

just watch the damn tapes and tell me which player was more impressive and had more impact on games. MJ easily. Unstoppable in the post, killer mid-range jumper, finishes effortlessy through contact/great at avoiding contact.

[JebronLames]

Confirmed. LeBron is the GOAT.

[3ball]

I'm not making this stuff up about how higher offensive rebounding and FT rates increase Team ORtg and Opponent DRtg (same number).

Just go to the basketball-reference.com link posted below - it's a helpful table that shows selected league-wide data over the years.. The last 6 columns show various factors that drive ORtg (including offensive rebounding rate and FT rate).

The table clearly shows how the significantly higher offensive rebounding and FT rates of previous eras (due to the much higher proportion of two-pointers) contributed to higher Team ORtg (and Opponent DRtg).

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_stats.html

The table speaks for itself - pretty much explains literally everything.
.

[mehyaM24]

I'm not making this stuff up about how higher offensive rebounding and FT rates increase Team ORtg and Opponent DRtg (same number).

Just go to the basketball-reference.com link posted below - it's a helpful table that shows selected league-wide data over the years.. The last 6 columns show various factors that drive ORtg (including offensive rebounding rate and FT rate).

The table clearly shows how the significantly higher offensive rebounding and FT rates of previous eras (due to the much higher proportion of two-pointers) contributed to higher Team ORtg (and Opponent DRtg).

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_stats.html

The table speaks for itself - pretty much explains literally everything.
.

it only affects offenses, as noted per the defintion of DRTG
drtg is simply the number of points you hold your opponents per 100 possessions. the fact more 3 point attempts are taken today plays a part, but theres simply more teams that play less tempo and actually take defense serious.

“All you have to do is look at the stats,” Bird says. “There’s better shooting back then, better defense now."

“Offenses are a little more complex because the defenses have forced that,” Ainge says. “In the ’80s, defense was important but you didn’t do as much double-teaming, you didn’t do as much trapping. You played guys straight up."

^^ players from the 80s/90s confirming what i've been posting. if you need more information on WHY the 2k defenses are more practical, don't hesitate to PM me.

[Lebronxrings]

imagine if 6'2 guards were guarding lebron :eek:

[T_L_P]

imagine if 6'2 guards were guarding lebron :eek:

http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2012/1001/nba_g_james_gb2_576.jpg

[3ball]

^^ players from the 80s/90s confirming what i've been posting. if you need more information on WHY the 2k defenses are more practical, don't hesitate to PM me.


The person responsible for implementing the new rules, Vice President of Basketball Operations Stu Jackson, says the rule changes were specifically designed to make penetration easier and increase shot quality for literally EVERYONE. Don't shoot me, I'm just the messenger:

http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/04/09/stujackson/index.html


NBA.com: Shooting percentages have risen since 2004-05 regardless of location -- at-the-rim shots, short- and deep-mid range and 3-pointers. Does this surprise you, especially the higher percentages from 3-point range?

Stu Jackson: With the rule and interpretation changes, it has become more difficult for defenders to defend penetration, cover the entire floor on defensive rotations and recover to shooters. This has provided more time for shooters to ready themselves for quality shots. With more dribble penetration, ball handlers are getting more opportunities at the rim..



NBA.com: Doesn't the wide-open style benefit certain types of players? For example, wing players vs. frontcourt players?

Stu Jackson: The benefits of an open game are not limited to just perimeter players. An open game can benefit a post player as well. Remember, if the players are spaced wider and using more of the court, then defenses have to play those players closely because they're good shooters. The style actually serves to open up the middle of the floor. If a team has an effective post player, he would have more room to operate in the post.


:confusedshrug:


This is why posting articles or quotes about the rule changes can be wildly conflicting.

Ultimately, it really depends on the SPECIFIC TOPIC being discussed - if you ask guys about zone, they say it makes defenses tougher... But ask them about spacing, defensive 3 seconds, or the ban on hand-checking/physicality, and they obviously say it makes defenses weaker. These things all offset each other.

[3ball]

.
Why Pace Was Faster Back When Teams Only Shot 2-Pointers


In today's game, 27% of all shots taken are 3-pointers.. but in previous eras, only two-pointers were taken, which made the game much faster.

After all, the only reason teams run offense is to get OPEN SHOTS.. Two-pointers don't need to be as open as 3-pointers, so they requires less offense to be ran, which sped the game up in previous eras.. In general, less setup is required to get a 2-pointer than a 3-pointer.

Otoh, 3-pointers generally must be SET UP by running offense.. and in today's game, a perpetual pursuit of 3-pointers is necessary on every play to maintain the spacing... this bogs the game down bigtime, and results in less natural, random on-court movements as well.

Ultimately, the 3-pointers provide spacing, but that spacing takes TIME to both set up and maintain.. However, if the 3-point line was removed tomorrow, teams wouldn't need to invest this time.. Instead, they would start running up and down like they used to, playing instinctively and settling for contested two's that required skill to obtain and convert.. Also, players wouldn't be required to camp behind the 3-point line or keep the lane clear (assuming defensive 3 seconds was also removed), so on-court movements would also look more organic and less staged.
.

[mehyaM24]

quotes are conflicting, but i'll take the players who actually played in the 80s/90s who are without bias.

the numbers i posted in my OP are literally 100% fact. lebron has proven to be a better player against the best efficient defenses.

for a better comparison, i highlighted the 2 best series from each player:

jordan vs 1993 knicks (99 DRtg):
32PTS / 7REB / 6AST on ~40% shooting

jordan vs 1997 heat (100 DRtg):
30PTS / 8.0REB | 3AST on ~38% shooting

lebron vs 2012 celtics (98 DRtg):
34PTS / 11REB / 4AST on ~54% shooting

lebron vs 2013 pacers (99 DRtg):
29PTS / 7REB / 5AST on ~51% shooting


^^ these numbers are EXACTLY why lebron has the highest PEAK player efficiency of the modern era.

[97 bulls]

there is a reason why the 1989 Bad Boy Pistons had a higher DRTG (104.7) than today's lowly Charlotte Bobcats (103.0) - and it's not because it was easier to score on them.


Mayhem. How do you answer this?

[3ball]

lebron vs 2012 celtics (98 DRtg):
34PTS / 11REB / 4AST on ~54% shooting


Wade did even better - he averaged 33 pts, 6 rebs, and 7 assists against the 2010 Celtics (a better version of the Celtics that made the Finals).

and Wade did it on 66% TS... this proves that today's era defenses are garbage - Jordan was never able to put up numbers like this against the Bad Boys or the Riley's Knicks.

you should be ashamed that today's spacing, open paint, and lack of physicality allows lesser players like wade to put up better numbers than Jordan... just imagine what Jordan would do to these cream puff defenses.





lebron vs 2013 pacers (99 DRtg):
29PTS / 7REB / 5AST on ~51% shooting


Why bring up Lebron's performance in almost losing to Hibbert and George in 7 games?

This doesn't compare to Jordan SWEEPING Shaq and Penny's Magic in 1996, on 30 PPG, 6 RPG, 5 APG - Shaq and Penny are a considerable step up from Hibbert and George... NO COMPARISON





against the best efficient defenses.


In 17 playoffs series versus a top 5 defense, MJ never averaged less than 27 PPG:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=362242


Otoh, in 7 of 12 playoff series versus a top 5 defense, Lebron averaged less than 27 PPG, and shot far worse than MJ:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=362244


Infact, Lebron's playoff career average of 27 PPG is not only 25% less than Jordan's 34 PPG average, but the 27 PPG is the lowest Jordan has ever averaged in ANY playoff series.
.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

lol 3ball is so ****ing shook

[Yao Ming's Foot]

I'm not making this stuff up about how higher offensive rebounding and FT rates increase Team ORtg and Opponent DRtg (same number).

Just go to the basketball-reference.com link posted below - it's a helpful table that shows selected league-wide data over the years.. The last 6 columns show various factors that drive ORtg (including offensive rebounding rate and FT rate).

The table clearly shows how the significantly higher offensive rebounding and FT rates of previous eras (due to the much higher proportion of two-pointers) contributed to higher Team ORtg (and Opponent DRtg).

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_stats.html

The table speaks for itself - pretty much explains literally everything.
.

Why are you surprised that better defense teams clean up the boards and don't foul as often as weaker ones?

:confusedshrug:

[Quickening]

quotes are conflicting, but i'll take the players who actually played in the 80s/90s who are without bias.

the numbers i posted in my OP are literally 100% fact. lebron has proven to be a better player against the best efficient defenses.

for a better comparison, i highlighted the 2 best series from each player:

jordan vs 1993 knicks (99 DRtg):
32PTS / 7REB / 6AST on ~40% shooting

jordan vs 1997 heat (100 DRtg):
30PTS / 8.0REB | 3AST on ~38% shooting

lebron vs 2012 celtics (98 DRtg):
34PTS / 11REB / 4AST on ~54% shooting

lebron vs 2013 pacers (99 DRtg):
29PTS / 7REB / 5AST on ~51% shooting


^^ these numbers are EXACTLY why lebron has the highest PEAK player efficiency of the modern era. :applause: :pimp:

[OldSchoolBBall]

LMAO @ this clown harping on this arbitrary "100 DRTG" shit. :oldlol: The best part is that his sample size for Jordan consists of TWO playoff series against two of the best and most physical defenses of all time, during one of which he was 34 years old and during the other he had a badly sprained wrist.

What a fvcking clown. :roll: lol @ comparing the '93 Knicks and '97 Heat defense to the 2012 Celts (the '08 Celts would be a better comparison) or '13 Pacers.

[PejaTheSerbSnip]

You forgot the 07-08 Celtic series -- 26 ppg on 35%

[mehyaM24]

LMAO @ this clown harping on this arbitrary "100 DRTG" shit. :oldlol: The best part is that his sample size for Jordan consists of TWO playoff series against two of the best and most physical defenses of all time, during one of which he was 34 years old and during the other he had a badly sprained wrist.

What a fvcking clown. :roll: lol @ comparing the '93 Knicks and '97 Heat defense to the 2012 Celts (the '08 Celts would be a better comparison) or '13 Pacers.

:oldlol: at the claims of 100 drtg (essentially holding your teams to 100ppg) is an arbitrary number. its common knowledge that anyone holding teams to ~100 points or lower, in most eras, would be considered great defense.

lol'ing at jordan fans thinking this is some cherry-picked "advanced" metric.

[OldSchoolBBall]

A two series sample size, against two of the best and most physical defenses of all time, one at age 34 and the other with a badly sprained wrist, is not a fair barometer of ability. None of the series cited for Lebron featured teams anywhere NEAR as capable defensively as the ones for Jordan regardless of what "DRTG" says (like I said, '08 Celts are a better comparison), and Lebron was both younger and healthier in each of them. Total bullsh!t from a bullsh!t poster. :roll:

[mehyaM24]

uhhh, try 3 series and a handful of regular season games, equaling any of his championship runs in the postseason.

major LOL at disregarding a practical sample size because you don't like what it entails. fvcking shook. :oldlol:

[OldSchoolBBall]

uhhh, try 3 series and a handful of regular season games, equaling any of his championship runs in the postseason.

major LOL at disregarding a practical sample size because you don't like what it entails. fvcking shook. :oldlol:

No, your OP cites two series only. In the OTHER thread you had made you added the '98 ECF as well (Jordan at age 35 running on fumes). You have never detailed which regular season games you supposedly included. I will wait for that info, but I imagine it's a few games against the (surprise!) '93 Knicks.

[SamuraiSWISH]

DTrg across eras is a stupid comparison. It's all about their rank within context. MJ slaughtered numerous #1 defenses in the playoffs. He's probably the best all-time at doing it. LeBron in 2nd place. Which is justifiably where he belongs.